Have Faith in Your Faith

What happens when faith collides with grief? For Pastor Amanda McNeil, this question became deeply personal during her journey through infertility. This conversation delves into the complex relationship between faith and loss, offering wisdom for anyone questioning their spiritual foundations after experiencing grief. Amanda, who serves as both a pastor and counselor, brings a rare dual perspective—acknowledging that anger, doubt, and questioning are natural parts of the grieving process that don't indicate spiritual failure.

"God can handle our anger," she reassures listeners, emphasizing that presenting one face to the public while struggling privately is a common experience, especially for those in spiritual leadership. The discussion expands beyond loss related to death, exploring how grief manifests in various life transitions—from divorce to job loss to retirement. Amanda offers practical guidance for helping children develop emotional language through everyday losses, demonstrating how these experiences can build resilience from an early age.

Perhaps most compelling is Amanda's neurological perspective on grief, explaining how our brains function differently when processing trauma. "We aren't designed to live in survival mode indefinitely," she notes, illuminating why avoidance strategies ultimately fail to heal our deepest wounds.

Whether you're questioning your faith after loss, supporting someone through grief, or simply seeking to understand the complex interplay between spirituality and suffering, this conversation offers gentle wisdom without easy answers. Amanda's approach—meeting people where they are without judgment—provides a roadmap for walking alongside others through their darkest valleys while honoring their unique spiritual journey.

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Credits: 
Music by Kevin MacLeod 

Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve

The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love, and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support.

Speaker 2 0:37

We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are, you, not professionals, not licensed maintained. We've not lost ground. With me today is Amanda McNeil. You're really going to get a lot out of this conversation, so listen closely, and I honestly think you know I have these vibes, but I honestly think this is going to be a podcast that you're going to listen to more than once. I think I am too. To tell you the truth, I often find going back and listening after I've had the conversation is so much more enriching for me because I'm focused, maybe, on what question I'm going to ask next, where were the conversations going. But when I listen back, I could really just listen and absorb. So, having said all that, hi, amanda, thanks for joining me today.

Speaker 3 1:20

Hi Kathy, thank you for the invitation to join you. I am so honored and very much looking forward to this conversation. Oh super.

Speaker 2 1:28

Then let's get started. I usually ask their guests to start out by introducing themselves, so can you tell our listeners around the world they are. Who is Amanda?

Speaker 3 1:39

Yeah, oh, amanda has so many facets to her. I live in Orlando, florida. Fun fact, I'm a native Floridian. Most people move here from up north or the surrounding islands, so I'm a rear year. I am a mom and a wife, I am a counselor, an author, a speaker and a pastor, and I'm so grateful to be able to wear so many hats because I get to connect with many people in different spaces of life, in different seasons of life, and I specialize in leadership, coaching, grief counseling and premarital counseling. Those are some of my areas of speciality that I love connecting with people, wow super and again, welcome.

Navigating Infertility and Loss

Speaker 2 2:24

Now to get us started, I want to start right off with something I gleaned from your bio and from your website that you, like your husband, struggled with some infertility issues. Yet you mentioned you're a mom, so can you kind of give us a little summary of what you experienced, you and your husband, yeah.

Speaker 3 2:44

So even before we were ever thinking about becoming parents, I mean, I definitely had it in my heart as a child but as a couple. You know, when we were going through our premarital counseling, it was the planning stage, like okay, if everything was up to us, when would we have kids and how many kids would we have and what would their lives look like and what do we want our legacy to be? We're really thoughtful and intentional. We got married very young and so we planned let's just have like three to five years just married, before we think about expanding our family with children. And just when we were ready, like the month, we were like let's try to have a baby.

Speaker 3 3:22

I started experiencing some health challenges and so for several months we had no answers and I saw many doctors, many different medications, many different trials. Pcos was one diagnosis which I know many women experience Polycystic ovarian syndrome, how that influences the cycle and makes it a challenge to get pregnant. Sure, but we still never really had any definitive answers over six months later. I know for some couples it's years. But I went to a doctor's appointment six months in. Didn't think it would be a big deal, so my husband didn't even go with me and the doctor.

Speaker 3 4:02

It was like the week before Christmas and the doctor looked at me and said it's going to be really challenging for you to get pregnant, naturally, and of course, around Christmas and holiday parties going to events us having been married over five years, everyone's like when are you going to have kids? Share who's trying? And so we're getting all the well-meaning questions and it was like each one was yet another dagger chin. So it took a while and we have a story of navigating what that looks like and who do we share what information with, and who's a safe person, and all of these different things that you face when you get a really challenging diagnosis. But I did end up getting pregnant and our miracle baby is nine years old now.

Speaker 2 4:50

Nine years old. Oh, that's exciting. Well, congratulations on that. For many people, when they realize that they're having some challenges having a baby, getting pregnant, and then when a doctor confirms that, that of course the experience is grief, because you're grieving a life you thought you were going to have and that life may or may not be there for you, so you were already grieving at that point. I'm sure that that probably added an incredible burden to your relationship, just that knowledge that maybe it'll never happen. How did you, or did you and your husband, manage to kind of keep it together? What did the tools you do?

Speaker 3 5:34

Yeah, that's a beautiful question, and so, no surprise, my husband and I process emotions differently. Isn't it so funny how you're attracted to someone who ends up being very different from you? There's like the male-female brain side of processing emotions, but then there's some things with our temperament and our upbringing, so we tend to process emotions at different paces. I tend to get sad really quickly and go deep into processing and research mode, whereas he's trying to keep things afloat and keep the faith and keep joy and keep seeing the good, which sometimes can feel like an insult when I'm like, no, this sucks, let's talk about how bad it sucks. And he's like you know, I can't go there, and in hindsight, I'm actually really grateful, because by the time I start to work my way through it and come up, he starts to crash for him, and so, in that sense, though, it can be a challenge for us to process grief. In one way, it helps keep us balanced and keep our household running and support each other. Yes, yeah, but it can be so hard At first. I'm a very private person, so it's interesting I live a very public life and yet I'm very private. It's an interesting balance, but I didn't want to share it. Yet because I wanted to take the time to identify how I was feeling and we only let a handful of people know our parents, pastors, one set of close friends and we just asked for them to pray for us and to encourage us. And it was really challenging and very trying and, to your point, it 100% was grief.

Speaker 3 7:12

It was, like you said, processing. Something about my life changed, something about my life wasn't in control. I lost a timeline, I lost a picture of what I thought my life would be, and I think this is challenging. Even from childhood, we have certain expectations. I remember the saying I don't know if it's so popular anymore, but when I was a kid, all the girls would say first comes love, then comes marriage. I'll see you in the baby carriage. Yep, I remember that. Yeah, you have this expectation of how life is supposed to progress and yet when something changes, that it can be a lot to process and to sit with.

Speaker 2 7:52

Yes, yes it can, absolutely Right there. So you have the grief that you're processing and I know it didn't go away, because grief just never seems to go away or get better. So you and your husband are processing this and then you find out you're pregnant. Was that both scary and exciting at the same time?

Processing Grief as a Pastor

Speaker 3 8:13

100%. Yes, it was like okay, this is a miracle. The prayers are answered. We've waited so long for this. Even to this day, our son asks. He was like, did you want a boy or a girl? And I was like son by the time. Everything we went through I did not care. But then I always have to assure him I'm like but I'm so glad it was you. But yeah, we were elated, we were so happy. And yet, of course, there's that nagging fear of, well, it was hard for me to get pregnant. So what is? It's hard for me to stay pregnant. Yeah, and in my personal story, I lost my father very young and so I had this internal pressure of I need to have a baby as soon as possible so I have the most time possible with my child. And it's so hard because so many of those factors are outside of our control.

Speaker 2 9:04

Absolutely, and you knew that Were you a pastor at this point in your life.

Speaker 3 9:10

I was, yes, and so faith has been a huge part of my life, and even wrestling with God, like you know, if you believe in a good God, a loving God. You know if you believe in a good God, a loving God, a providing God, when you go through loss or infertility or difficulty, it really refines your faith because you have to honestly face those questions and what you believe about God's character.

Speaker 2 9:37

Yeah, Well, how do you keep your faith? How do you not give up? I hear so many people, especially when they get in that angry mode. They're just angry that this is happening to them. How do you keep, how do you grab onto that faith? How do you keep it?

Speaker 3 9:53

Yeah, in my experience, god can handle our anger. And anger is not something to try to eliminate or shove into a box, because that doesn't make it go away. And anger has to be processed honestly and, of course, in healthy, safe, appropriate ways. But it is okay to experience anger. I was mad so many times throughout my journey.

Speaker 3 10:19

But in regards to holding on to faith, okay, kathy, I'm going to tell myself here I'm what I call strong-minded. Some other people might call that stubborn, so maybe I'm a little stubborn, but in that way I think that helped me ground myself in my faith, that I believed God's character was good, even when I didn't always see and feel it, and though I didn't know what the outcome was going to look like. I had the personal conviction that if God had put it in my heart to become a mother, he wouldn't do that to tease me or to taunt me. He had a plan to fulfill that some way, some timeline, and I just had to hold on to get there, to see what that fulfillment is Okay, and you were able to do that.

Speaker 2 11:02

You. I just had to hold on to get there to see what that fulfillment is.

Speaker 3 11:05

Okay, and you were able to do that. You were strong enough to do that. Yes and no in the sense of it doesn't mean I didn't have my days, doesn't mean I wasn't depressed, doesn't mean I had to navigate fear throughout pregnancy and even as a counselor now witnessing so many people, or just as a friend, as a human being, witnessing people navigate so many different kinds of infertility and so many different timelines, it does cause you to question things, and I've prayed angry prayers, I prayed sad prayers and I definitely haven't navigated my faith perfectly. I don't know that there is someone who can do that, but I am grateful that not only did I get to see the desire for motherhood fulfilled in my life in a natural sense, I also recognize the privilege of what it is to mother people to, or wisdom to people, to be consistent and reliable, for people to love people.

Speaker 3 11:58

And so I think there's many different ways of what mothering has looked like in my journey.

Speaker 2 12:03

That's an interesting perspective. I like that. I like that a lot. And with grief, we often present one face, so to speak, to the public, totaling one faith when we're on our own. Was that a special challenge for you? Being in the public light, being a pastor? Was that wrong?

Speaker 3 12:22

So I think, with grief, there's a lot of yes and no answers. It's not so neat and so clear and simple In the sense of my faith being genuine, my stubborn faith, truly clinging to hope. That was easy because that was real. That's who I am publicly and privately. Now was it hard to go to other people's baby showers when I was navigating infertility Completely, and so there are pains that aren't always public or that we can't always share with a broad circle of people. It may not be seen or appropriate to do so. So, yeah, my answer is yes and no. There were some things that I was like nope, that's authentically me, and there were other things that were a great burden and a sacrifice and a challenge that many people couldn't have known about.

Speaker 2 13:07

Do you feel, or have you felt at any time, that the reason you went through this experience of infertility was so that you could be more empathetic to others that might be experiencing that challenge?

Speaker 3 13:22

I don't think the cause was to develop my empathy, but I think the reaction did develop my empathy. Okay, all right With grief, because there's so many different kinds, there's different relationships, there's different crosses. We actually can't fully know what someone goes through, period, but we certainly can't know even a part of what someone goes through unless we've been through something similar. And so absolutely it impacts my work with couples navigating infertility, it impacts how I walk alongside friends navigating infertility, and so, while I would never wish to go through that again and I don't wish that experience on anyone, I am grateful for what it refined in me and what it does allow me to offer and connect with others in.

Faith During Times of Questioning

Speaker 2 14:10

Yeah, that takes a very special person and I think in some ways the losses I've experienced have put me here where I am now trying to help others better understand and, more than understand, just be able to talk about it, because I find in the storytelling, if you will, that helps you heal. The podcast, for me, has been extremely cathartic in that every guest I talk to I feel like heal a little bit more. Will I ever be healed? Probably not, because I've had these four major losses. I've lost both parents. I lost an infant child who was not quite 24 hours old. That one, actually, I didn't grieve then because this is just the way society was. There was no bereavement groups and it was also a time there were no smartphones. So I had this baby in the hospital. I never saw him, never touched him, never held him and no one ever took a picture of him. So it was. You know, when you're pushed back into your culture and the rule is suck it up, move on, move on, those things happen. It's easy to just pretend it never happened. Yet in doing the podcast, that one's coming back to me. So I'm grieving that loss now, decades later, but through it all, it helps me heal. It really does, and it helps me, I think, work with others that are also trying to heal. It makes me able to talk about death, where I literally, literally used to run from the topic, literally used to run.

Speaker 2 15:40

I often say that grief, even though we talk mostly about it being related to the death of a loved one, it can be about any type of loss. It can be a divorce, it can be a breakup, a relationship breakup. It can be the loss of a job, maybe financial disaster, where you lose the lifestyle that you have prepped for and maybe lived for a number of years. For a lot of people, retirement they grieve because they've lost contact, they've lost that social, that work atmosphere and everything. So grief is out there in a variety of forms and I like to call attention to that. At the same time, I do it by mentioning that a toddler that leaves behind their favorite stuffed animal in a restaurant or on an airplane, that toddler grieves too. Yeah, and that's a perfect opportunity for parents to introduce that subject. Do you ever talk about grief with children?

Speaker 3 16:34

Yeah, I occasionally will work with wid, with young children, and so they ask how do I even navigate and support my child through this Sure? And I love that example because, you're right, grief isn't limited to just death. And so helping give our children language for that is really powerful to normalize. It's okay that you're sad that your stuffy was left behind I'm so sad that happened and giving our children language and stepping into the emotion with them, even though we might not have had fond memories over little stuffy, right, it's empathy, it's powerful and it normalizes it.

Speaker 3 17:16

And I think this is one of the beauties of where our society has grown into Even how we view mental health or how we view counseling or the resources available to us. It lets us normalize our experience rather than have to put on a brave face and just stuff it down. And so it can be complicated with kids because they don't have a filter. They'll just say stuff that will take you off guard sometimes, it's very true. But it is a gift to help them gain that language and learn how to process that type of pain when they're young.

Speaker 2 17:50

Right, right, okay, here's one of my favorite maybe favorite isn't the right word, but one of the theories that I like to mention, especially when I have a pastor, especially when I have someone who's so strong in their faith and I use myself as a personal example. I was raised in the Episcopal church Church. Every Sunday I was in the choir, I was in the youth group. Our lives revolved around church. As a family, I was taught heaven and hell and all of that. And then I reached my teenage years and I get to these science courses in high school and all of a sudden I'm thinking what, how could that possibly be? And I start to challenge everything I was taught in church, especially as it related to death, and for several years I was in a huge turmoil about well what happens when you die, and I think that's where my fear of death came from.

Grief Beyond Death

Speaker 2 18:42

So I'm just asking I'm not asking for opinions or thoughts or anything other than do you have any suggestions maybe for our teens out there, or even adults that all of a sudden are faced with the death of someone they love and they find themselves saying, well, how could I believe in heaven? Because scientifically that doesn't support it. So that's a broad, broad spectrum, but I just do you have any thoughts on?

Speaker 3 19:09

Yeah, so I think finding safety and safe people is one of the best supports that we need when we're questioning safe people Okay.

Speaker 3 19:20

Yeah.

Speaker 3 19:21

So community, whether that looks like a grief support group or in the context of a teenager questioning their faith, being able to talk about it with family members or parents of our friends or a youth pastor Okay, being able to be honest with those questions, now that can be a very scary, risky thing, because when we are honest, anger will be a part of it, questioning our faith will be a part of it, and not everyone will be able to go there with us.

Speaker 3 19:52

So, unfortunately, it does require some discernment over who can be a safe person, and a safe person doesn't always tell me what I want them to tell me. They don't always tell me what I want to hear. Right, they make space for me to take up as much space and ask questions without judgment, and it is just a relationship where that is invited for me to wrestle with my faith and to explore faith and science and how there's places where they seem to conflict and there's places where they may seem to align, and for us, as young people, to continue to grow in discovering and developing what we believe.

Speaker 2 20:31

Okay, Faith in general, I believe, is very important when you're grieving, even if you're a faith challenge, so to speak. It has been suggested to me and this is somewhat what my experience was too, when I started to question and challenge what I believe. It just opened my mind and I started to inquire, investigate, research, if you will, what other people thought, what others had as their idea of faith, and eventually I was able to kind of customize, if you will, my beliefs. They are primarily based in what I grew up with, but I think I've expanded it and also, in doing that, opening my mind, it also opened my heart so that I realized that there are many others out there that have different beliefs, different faiths, but it's all okay that we can all cling to our own private faith and still interact with those people and without challenging other faiths faith. So, if someone is presented to you that is grieving, maybe not a member of your congregation or of your particular denomination, what are some of the things you might say to them that would support their faith?

Speaker 3 21:49

I. So let me restart that that's okay. From a professional standpoint, I always mean people where they're at, and thankfully my particular counseling license allows me to be very open with my faith, so people know what they're getting, what they're signing up for. But I've also been privileged to work with people of a wide variety of faiths, even some that might be viewed as opposing to mine. So for me, I think, especially in a season of grief, that's not the time to prove anything or convince anyone of anything. I actually think very rarely are you going to convince someone to change their faith or their belief really, but in a season of loss and brokenness, I think that's one of the most tender places we can all find ourselves with our belief about goodness goodness in humanity, goodness in the universe, goodness in God.

Speaker 3 22:42

And for me, as a counselor, I'm not there to convince anyone. I am there to help them explore what they need and encouraging people to lean into community, to lean into relationships. This is why I often recommend grief support groups, because some faiths or some churches don't offer that or don't have a signature for what that looks like. And when we start to engage the wrestle of our faith and our pain, it can get complicated, and the beauty of a grief support group is it can be a very diverse place where there isn't judgment and where there is safety to engage in what that wrestle looks like again, so that we can honestly come to our own conclusions, and the hope is that that's done in a safe environment so that we can actually heal and not introduce more wounds or more infections along the way, so to speak.

Speaker 2 23:37

Yeah, I love what you say about meeting them where they are. I've heard that expression before and it really does sum it up, I think, in just recognizing where someone is and starting there, meeting them there and going from that point on. So I really, really appreciate that expression. Do you have any favorite books you might recommend to someone that wanted a?

Speaker 3 23:59

book about grief. There are so many that I have read, interestingly enough in the context of our conversation. For me personally, navigating grief specifically bereavement, the loss of a close loved one I actually found more comfort in reading books about heaven from a biblical and a scientific perspective, and I did even read books. So sometimes I think when we're grieving or when we're in pain of any kind, we're looking for the checklist, like what do I have to do to get through this, to get past this, to feel better? And, as I said, to some degree we'll always be grieving, not that it's debilitating to our life forever. But yeah, there is no neat checklist.

Speaker 3 24:41

So if you're looking for a quick support, I really love the Grief Guidebook by Gary Rowe. It is a very short chapter so it's very easy when you're in a mental fog of like, okay, I'm just going to read one or two pages. So it's very easy when you're in a mental fog of like, okay, I'm just going to read one or two pages. And we love how he covers a wide net of topics in very simplistic ways and we just like a little lifeline along the way.

Speaker 2 25:03

Yeah, he's been on our podcast several times and I actually have a number of his books. But I love Gary too. Yeah, I have several of your books too. Yeah, he's great. In fact, he's about due to come back, I think. Yeah, it's time. Okay, I think you know. I probably just have one more general question, and that would be do you have suggestions for any of our listeners out there who really might be, at this point, questioning their faith as it relates to the loss they've experienced?

Speaker 3 25:35

Yeah, so this is something that's near and dear to my heart, because I not only have gone through it myself after many losses, but as a lifelong church kid, as a pastor, I've walked alongside other people in their questions. And again, I can't emphasize enough, the questions are okay, and while I'm a big advocate for allowing God to speak for himself in your life, at least in my experience, he can handle the questions, he can handle the anger, he can handle the feelings of injustice, he can handle everything that we carry and in my experience going to him is the safest place for that wrestle. He doesn't condemn us, he doesn't shirk us off and while it might be intimidating or tender, in my experience that's the best place to run is to him with those questions. And I think, too, we can't expect a quick fix. Wouldn't we like that in every area of our life? Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, sign me up for that, absolutely.

Brain Science and Grief Processing

Speaker 3 26:39

Where can I get that? Even in faith it may not be this quick fix, and I find oftentimes there can be this conflict of maybe. In some areas I can be full of faith and my belief isn't shaken, and yet in other areas I'm heartbroken with God. Yes, the reality is those can coexist at the same time, and that doesn't make us a bad person or a faithless person. It makes us someone who's navigating pain, and when we're navigating pain, even on a neurological level, our brain is functioning differently to help us stay alive, to help us avoid further injury, and so why would we not think that that's part of our emotional experience and our spiritual experience as well?

Speaker 2 27:27

Can you elaborate a little bit more on how our brain thinks differently?

Speaker 3 27:31

So our brains are designed to keep us alive, they're designed to survive, and when we are facing trauma, so it could be a physical trauma that's occurring presently.

Speaker 3 27:45

It could also be an emotional trauma, as you mentioned earlier, the threat of financial loss or big life change. Anytime we are facing a threat to our survival, our brain goes into protection mode to fight or flight or freeze or appease, and so that means chemically, that our hormones are firing off different things in our brain to keep us alive. And this is really beautiful, because if I have to fight off the threat of an icy road and I have to try to keep my car safe while I'm driving, I need that surge of adrenaline and cortisol to help me focus and steer the steering wheel, and so it is a beautiful survival mechanism that helps us survive. The challenge is we aren't designed to live in survival mode indefinitely, and so when we attempt to stuff our grief, when we attempt to avoid it or to live like it didn't happen, that doesn't resolve it or make it go away or heal it. It's still very much affecting us, even on a chemical, neurological and hormonal level.

Speaker 2 28:52

Interesting. Yeah, I did read a book. I don't know if you've ever heard about it or read it. It's by Mary Frances O'Connor and it's called your Brain on Grease. Oh, it sounds fascinating.

Speaker 2 29:02

It's a really good book and she has an analogy about why it takes us a while to kind of get over things or to change some of these thoughts. Like when you hear the garage door open, you automatically think that your spouse is returning from work, even though they've been dead for a month. And she had an analogy about in the middle of the night you might make your way from the bedroom to your kitchen to get a glass of water, totally in the dark, and you always avoid all the obstacles in your path. And then all of a sudden one night, imagine that you're navigating this path and you get to where you normally stepped to the side so that your foot wouldn't hit the dining room table leg. But that table leg is not there anymore and it just it takes so long You'll still find yourself sidestepping to miss that leg, whether the table's there or not, but I remember that analogy just sticks in my head. It was a really good book. So I appreciate that leg, whether the table's there or not, but I remember that analogy just sticks in my head.

Speaker 2 29:56

It was a really good book. So I appreciate that Our brains are amazing, just absolutely amazing, and that's why there are entire sciences studying the brain. And it does take a while for things to go through your brain and even when you've just gotten through a situation where the adrenaline was flowing, it takes a while for you to calm down. It takes a while for the brain to make that change and stabilize you again. So this is the point in the podcast that I always it always saddens me a bit because I know it's coming to an end, but this is the point in the podcast where I'm actually going to turn the microphone over to you, amanda, and let you tell the guests a little bit about yourself, about your consulting services, about the books that are available. So the floor is yours.

Speaker 3 30:48

Thank you so much, and it's been such a great conversation. I can see why there's a little grief that it's coming to an end. I can see why there's a little grief that it's coming to an end. Everything we've talked about is part of my heart, part of my life, work, and even I'm not a neuroscientist, but that field of study fascinates me so that's like one of my hobbies. I'll read all about the brain and how different things impact us.

Speaker 3 31:10

So in my latest book, overcoming the Overcast, navigating the Storms of Grief with God, I share candidly a bit about my story, about some neuroscience, about some biblical perspectives on what this looks like to help people engage their story with grief. And while the book isn't my story, I share bits and pieces of my story throughout, from losing my father to navigating infertility and so many other losses that I have personally navigated. And it is a love letter to those who have experienced loss, because it is it my heart was. I find myself saying the same things in many spaces and so I was like I want to put it down for everyone. I can't just go to coffee with this book, is that like? Here's how I talk, here's my stories, here's what I've learned, and it's not a how to or a checklist, but it is a place that normalizes emotions and helps explain a little bit about what goes on in our bodies and in our spirits as we navigate grief, so that is something I'm so proud of.

Speaker 3 32:13

In some ways, it feels like a second baby, and writing and publishing a book was kind of like labor. It was a lot and very because of the topic Sure. So I actually am giving away the first chapter free on my website. It's just my name, amandacmcneilcom, so you can find the book there. I also have a published grief journal that is suitable for different faiths and different types of losses and it's self-paced, so you can find that there as well. And I'm on Instagram, amanda C McNeil. I'm not cool enough to have a TikTok Maybe one day, but I don't think so.

Speaker 2 32:50

I can't do it. Tiktok's a lot of work too, I think Okay, and you do consulting services. Is that available to people? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, that's okay. No, that's fine. I just wondered if it was available to people on a virtual basis.

Speaker 3 33:05

It is, yes, I do see virtual clients, and you can get more information through my site as well. Okay, super, through my site as well.

Speaker 2 33:13

Okay, super, super Well. Thank you so much. Okay, listeners, I love how Amanda just informed me that I'm grieving, this episode being over. It's absolutely correct, but I had never thought of it in that way, so maybe that will cause me to pick myself up, dust myself off. At any rate, please take care of yourselves. We talk about self-care a lot, and whether it's finding community that can support you, whether it is making sure you get up and take that shower and change your clothes or do the laundry or feed yourself, whatever form self-care takes for you at this point in your journey, please make the effort to do it. It is critical in your grief journey. It really is, and it's different, oh, like so many things were also different, like fingerprints and snowflakes, aren't we? So until next time, please do just that. Take care of yourselves and join us again next time as we all continue to live and grieve. Thanks again, amanda. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 34:10

Thank you so much for listening with us today. Do you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or do you have a question from one of our episodes? Please email us at info at asiliveandgrievecom and let us know. We hope you will find a moment to leave a review, send an email and share with others. Join us next time as we continue to live and grieve together.