The Other Side of the Gun: PTSD and Grief

At just 17, Susan Snow's world shattered when her father, an LAPD detective, was assassinated in front of her brother's elementary school. That night changed everything and launched Susan into 14 years of undiagnosed PTSD, creating a life where she merely existed rather than lived.

Susan takes us through her harrowing journey with raw honesty – from the initial trauma to the years spent hiding behind an emotional mask of "strength" while battling insomnia, depression, and panic attacks. The story takes a powerful turn when, years later, the Columbine shooting triggers a response that finally leads her to proper help. "In that moment, I had hope," Susan reveals about her eventual PTSD diagnosis. "I knew I wasn't crazy. I knew I could heal."

This episode delves deep into the crucial intersection between grief and trauma, especially when violence is involved. Susan, now an author and trauma resiliency coach, shares the practical tools that helped her heal and the transformative realization that while trauma doesn't disappear, it becomes manageable with the right support. Her insights on finding trauma-competent therapists and recognizing when you're in fight-or-flight mode offer invaluable guidance for anyone struggling with grief complicated by trauma.

As she powerfully states, "When you get to the other side and your pain no longer hangs over you like a cloud, the feeling is priceless." Connect with Susan at susansnowspeaks.com where she offers coaching and her book "The Other Side of the Gun: My Journey from Trauma to Resiliency."

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To Contact Susan:
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Credits: 
Music by Kevin MacLeod 

Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve

The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. 

Transcript

Introduction to Weekend Wisdom Series

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support. We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are you.

Speaker 2 0:27

Hi everyone, welcome back again to another episode of as I Live and Grieve. You guys are great for listening in every week and, gee, now that I've got this special series going, of which this is yet another episode, my Weekend Wisdom series. I chose a number of guests to be a part of this series because I really want their story, their inspiration, their perspective to stand out. So this is, I think, going to be episode six perhaps, of my Weekend Wisdom series, and with me today is Susan Snow. Susan, thanks for joining me today, thanks for having me. Oh, this is absolutely my pleasure, and you have an incredible story, and I know our listeners are going to be glued to their earbuds or whatever listening device they're using. If you're in the car or something, you'll probably want to drive an extra block until we finish talking this morning. So, to get us started, susan, would you just introduce yourself, tell a little bit of your background, your story, please, and let our listeners know who is Susan.

Speaker 3 1:33

Sure, absolutely Well, I am a wife, a mom of three, not telling you the ages. I am right now in real estate. However, I have moved into trauma resiliency coaching. It's my purpose, so I've been doing that. I am also a speaker and have been on stages with this message. I've also written a book, so my first book was written at the age of 50.

Speaker 2 2:08

And you didn't want to tell us the age of your children.

Speaker 3 2:13

That's okay. Yeah, yeah, no. So that's a little bit about me and my background, okay.

Speaker 2 2:23

All right, now I have titled this episode after the title of your book the Other Side of the Gun. Ptsd and Grief how are those two related?

Speaker 3 2:34

Oh, they're very much related, depending on the type of trauma you've gone through, so they are related. A lot of people that have gone through trauma experience PTSD, so I'll talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 2 2:50

All right, and can we just kind of for our listeners. Trauma is a very I won't say it's a common word, but we see it a lot in the news and everything like that. But what would be a definition of trauma?

Speaker 3 3:02

Well, there's a lot of semantics around trauma, exactly, and I feel like even when people hear my story, they go oh, I didn't go through anything like that, right. However, there's all kinds of trauma. There is childhood trauma, there is religious trauma, there is sexual assault you name it right. You can have trauma after accidents, right, and so, basically, what trauma is? It's anything that, in my mind, trauma is something that like stuns you to the point where you have a change in life Like this is a different trajectory than you thought that you were going to have. So I talked to many different people with different types of trauma. There are people walking around this earth that have had trauma, that have never recognized it as trauma. A lot of those people that I talked to it was during childhood. It was because it was a normalcy in their household or around them that they didn't recognize that that was trauma, and I ended up being the first person to look them in the face and say you've had trauma.

Speaker 2 4:23

You have suffered trauma. Yeah, the dictionary, I think, uses the words deeply distressing emotional event. Yes, okay, so if we could start with that, perhaps, as a base, one might even say losing someone you love to death is traumatic, and they would be right, because that's a deeply distressing emotional event. Absolutely, however, your instance is tied to violence, and that brings a whole different aspect to it. Could you tell us a little bit about your story, would you mind?

Speaker 3 4:59

Sure, that's fine. Well, my story starts when I was 17 years old. My father was a Los Angeles police detective a robbery, homicide detective and I had a normal teenage life. So the morning of Halloween 1985, I was having a conversation with my dad about going to a party that night. Conversation with my dad about going to a party that night, and it fell on a school night, so he said absolutely no and he was getting ready to go to court. He was a lead detective on a case that they were trying and so he left for work and the plan was I had a six-year-old brother at the time and my dad would go from court to school to pick up my brother from school and my mom would come home and at that point I would schmooze my parents to go to the party. Unfortunately, my mom came home and she was getting her costume off from a work party and I was getting ready for my party, supposedly yes, and the phone rang and I ran to it, thinking it was for me. Anyways, picked up the phone and it wasn't for me. It was a lady from my brother's school and she said there was a drive-by shooting and my dad was involved At the school. Yeah, so I saw my mom come around the corner and I just handed her the phone and as I was watching her demeanor and I was watching her body language, I knew it wasn't good. So she got off the phone and she said we're going to the school.

Speaker 3 6:43

The school was about seven minutes away from my childhood home and once we got there the way that the school is set up that there is a parking lot in the middle of the school, so we parked there and the kids got let out on the backside of the school. So that's where we headed. And as we were headed there, it was nighttime now and all you can see were the lights of all the police cars and there was an ambulance in the road as well. As we were walking, we kind of from side eye, we could see my dad's truck, so we started running towards the truck. The closer we got to the truck, we saw glass on the ground and we rounded the corner and there he was partially covered up. So I stood there and froze. I watched my mom drop to her knees and scream and, being a kid myself, I was not able to comprehend what I was looking at, right, so what I ended up doing is hyper-focusing on the ambulance, okay, and thinking to myself why isn't anyone helping him? Right, it was pretty quickly that two officers came up and grabbed us and then escorted us to the school and we went into an office. I sat down and my mom got taken away.

Speaker 3 8:03

Now, at this point I had no idea where my brother was. I had no idea if he was hurt nothing, nobody said anything to me. So I sat down and I was trying as best as I could to kind of process what was going on around me Not necessarily what I just saw, but more like what was going on, and it was very chaotic. I heard two women who worked at the school talking, and the one lady said to the other that my dad was deceased. And at that point that's where my world cracked. I wanted to run out of that room and run as far away from the situation as I could, but my legs felt like cement. I couldn't move, literally could not move.

Susan's Story: Losing Her Father

Speaker 3 8:54

My mom came up to me and she said I'm sending you with a neighbor, and I know I said I wanted to run out of there and all of that, but at the same time I needed to be with my family unit, yes, and I didn't get that chance. My mom sent me away and I went to the neighbor's house. I was dating a guy that I had been dating for three months and at that point all I wanted was him. Yeah, and this neighbor was like trying to process things herself because she's been my parents forever, mm-hmm, so she's like got his daughter standing in front of her, totally inconsolable at this point, mm-hmm, and she said what can I do? And I said call my boyfriend, call him at work. And he did. He showed up at the door and he said okay, get your purse, let's go. What hospital is he at? Where's your mom? Where's your brother? All the normal questions that you would ask. And I couldn't spit out the words, I couldn't say it. And the more persistent he got, the more I just finally just blurted it out he's gone. And he said what do you mean? He's gone? I said he's gone, he's not at a hospital, he's gone. And I watched my boyfriend drop on his knees and start sobbing. And so here we were, two kids just trying to figure out and navigate all the things that were going on.

Speaker 3 10:26

My street was once very quiet and now it was filled with police officers, I'm sure we had helicopters overhead. The media had descended. This was a huge story at the time, oh dear. A huge story at the time, oh dear and unbeknownst to me. Once I did go home, my house was filled with people. I had no idea who they were, but I didn't want to talk to them. I heard my mom, like I could hear her in the background. Nobody checked on me so I kind of sprinted to my room, shut the door and kind of hid, and it was hard because no matter what, like with the grieving process, there was always someone in my face. So I didn't get to grieve privately.

Speaker 3 11:15

Right At the time we didn't know that we were to a target. So this was a planned out assassination of my dad, oh my goodness. And so we were also unbeknownst to us. That didn't come out until trial that we were a target as well and they had not found the guys for six days. And so for six days I had police presence, large police presence, in our backyard, in our front yard. I had police presence, large police presence in our backyard, in our front yard. I had bodyguards that went with me to the mall to purchase the outfit I would wear to his funeral, and the issue for me was that back then, in 1985, there was no talk of mental health back then, no, no, and there was no resources for kids.

Speaker 3 12:09

In fact, lapd had resources for widows and widowers, but really not anything in place for children. And I was still a child, even though I was 17 years old. My dad and I were really close, and unfortunately, my mother and I were not, and so that was another dynamic that I was trying to navigate was losing my dad, who was my protector. So losing that aspect of my life and then having to navigate this relationship with the other parent was hard enough, and the first thing and it happens to a lot of people who grieve is that when something that shocking happens, you live in a fog. Now, for me, I wasn't sleeping at night because if I shut my eyes, I had this feeling of not being safe, and then I would have visions of my dad, and so I was terrified of sleeping, which led to my depression, which led to suicidal ideation, which led to panic attacks and being on edge all the time and not having the tools to grapple with all of this stuff.

Speaker 2 13:36

Yes, and no one's saying let's talk to this therapist, yeah.

Speaker 3 13:40

Nothing, not yet. So it wasn't until a month after my dad was killed and everything kind of settled down that they found the guys and apprehended them. But at that point, if you pushed me in a direction, that's the direction I would go. I was no longer living, I was just existing. I was no longer living, I was just existing, yep, and I was. My mom was told by LAPD that they wanted to pay for therapy for all three of us. Now, back then I thought you know, being a teenager from what I heard like if you need therapy, then you're crazy, absolutely. But because my mom voluntold me that I was going, I said, okay, I'm going, okay.

Speaker 3 14:28

And in hindsight, what was really difficult for me is that I at the time was not able to verbalize all the things that were going on with me. Sure, and I had such an insecurity about it because I thought if I tell people all these things that are going on with me, are they going to lock me up, kind of thing. So I think I'm crazy, think I've snapped, whatever. So this gentleman that I saw in hindsight, I feel that he was not trauma, competent, nor was he informed, and that's key. Yeah, I feel like. And for the time I get it there. Just, there wasn't a whole lot. However, he never asked me how that night affected me, which I tell people that all the time and they just can't believe it. But I think the reason he didn't is because then he would have to tiptoe through the marsh with me. He didn't know how to respond. No, yeah, and he didn't know.

Speaker 3 15:29

And so our sessions were very shallow. It was all about my relationship with my mom, my brother, my boyfriend in school, that's it. And every week I went to him. I was like today's, the day Today's going to make me feel better, and then I'd walk out of there and be like I don't feel any better. He saw me for a year and at the end of the year he said Susan, you're a well-rounded young lady, you're going to be fine for the rest of your life and I don't need to see you anymore.

Speaker 3 16:04

And at that very moment, when I walked out of his office, I thought I've broken. I'm crazy. This is something I'm going to have to deal with for the rest of my life. Right, and so I had. I just I lost all sense of ever being okay. Yeah, and what I ended up doing, and what a lot of people do is they create this emotional mask, and that's what I did is they create this emotional mask, and that's what I did. I created this mask with all of the words that people would tell me so such as Susan, you're so strong, susan, you're so brave, and that's what I wore, and I might be going through total turmoil inside, but nobody saw it. Nobody saw it because I hid behind that mask and I lived in fight or flight for 14 years of my life 14 years, wow.

Speaker 3 17:02

I married the boyfriend. We are still together Nice, almost 40 years, which I can't even believe. We met in incubators no, I'm just kidding. Anyways, I married him, I became a mom of two kids and we decided to leave California. I was sick and tired of looking behind my shoulders all the time. When you've been in a situation where you've been a target, that mentality takes a long time to go away, and so, plus, people knew who I was, and at the time, I didn't like that either. So we decided we would leave and go to Colorado, which is where we are now with our kids, and I was working as a hairdresser at the time.

Speaker 3 17:50

I worked in a salon that was close to Littleton, colorado and we moved here in 97, april of 97. And April of 99, april 20th of 99, I was working and I took a break from my client and I went to the back room and I turned on our tiny little TV in our break room and up popped the live coverage of the Columbine shootings and I had a visceral reaction to it. I had flashbacks. I turned bright white, I started to sweat and have a panic attack. Oh my gosh, my colleagues had no idea. They didn't know my story. They had no idea what was happening to me. I was told I was going to be fine for the rest of my life.

Speaker 3 18:30

So I had no idea. They didn't know my story. They had no idea what was happening to me. I was told I was going to be fine for the rest of my life. So I had no idea what was happening to me, right. And my colleagues were like I don't get it. You don't have kids old enough to go to high school, you don't live in the area Like what is happening to you. And I said you know, I don't know. I honestly did not know, right.

Speaker 3 18:51

And so I did what I normally did I put that mask back on and I went out and I did my client's hair and everybody around me was crying and upset and angry, all the emotions, yeah. And you were completely detached, totally detached. However, the minute I walked through that door to go home, all of those emotional things came right back, right, and it got so bad that I stopped sleeping. I was spiraling. I knew I was spiraling.

Life in the Aftermath of Trauma

Speaker 3 19:24

I had suicidal ideation again, but it was a fight, because now I'm a mom, yeah, and even though I wanted to stop this feeling and this hurting and everything, I just couldn't leave my children and my husband, the smart man that he is, recognized the spiraling. He saw it and he met me at the door one day and he said you have two choices you either go get help today or I'm putting you in a hospital. And at that point I like put that white flag up and I was like, okay, I'll, I'll. I was scared, but I knew that I had to do something. So I did. I made an appointment and went and saw a physician first, and the physician put me on antidepressants which that's what they do, and then he handed me a business card and he said I want you to make an appointment with this therapist and I literally laughed in his face and I said 14 years ago I tried this and it didn't work. What makes you think that this is going to work this time? And he said, honestly, you don't have a choice. And I said, okay, all right, fine, I'll go.

Speaker 3 20:41

I made an appointment and in the first three minutes I knew it was different. I was first of all, in the first three minutes she asked me about what I was going through, which led to what I went through at 17. And I was able to guide her through my journey in that. And she looked at me and she said, susan, everything you've gone through since you were 17 years old is normal, because you have PTSD. And I was like what? I didn't go to war, I'm not in the military. And she said, no, she said anyone who has gone through trauma can have PTSD. But what you need to understand about that is that it's not something that goes away. It is something you learn to manage. And in that moment I had hope. I was so excited because now I knew I wasn't crazy. I knew I could heal from this. I knew that I found my person after all these years of yearning for somebody to help me, guide me, these years of yearning for somebody to help me, guide me and give me hope, this woman.

Speaker 2 21:55

How incredible a feeling that must have been.

Speaker 3 22:08

It was, and a lot of it had to do with one. She knew the type of trauma. She was an extreme trauma professional, so that was her thing, and she specialized in PTSD. So out of all the therapists I could have sat in front of, she was definitely one Perfect, and she also recognized that I was a hot mess. I had a lot going on, and she was going to have to address this a little at a time.

Speaker 3 22:34

Right, she didn't want to overwhelm me, but the one key thing I can say that made the huge difference for me is that I felt safe with her. I felt that I could be vulnerable with her, and if you aren't able to be vulnerable with your therapist, that healing is not going to happen. And so I talk to people all the time about aligning with someone who understands your type of trauma. So when I say trauma competent, I mean in that type of trauma. So when I say trauma competent, I mean in that type of trauma, right, because you can't lump us all into one. You just can't, right. And so there's different modalities for different types of trauma.

Speaker 2 23:24

How do you find someone who specializes in your type of trauma?

Speaker 3 23:33

I think the best thing you can do is interview people. This is your healing, it is not their healing, and you need to make sure that you find the right person that's going to be able to help you heal, and they're not going to be that right person if they don't understand the type of trauma that you've had. So interview them, ask them are these the type of patients do you work with? The type of cases that you work with? How many have you worked with Right? They could say yes, but only had one client, right. So, yeah, you just you want to make sure that they understand your type of trauma and that they're not just lumping you into the generalization of trauma.

Speaker 2 24:15

Right, and the hope that you felt when you realized that this was probably the best place for you to be at that moment in time, and you had hope that you were going to be able to somehow deal with things in a way that would make your life better, that would restore that sense of living successfully and allow you to be a mom and to be a wife and everything and have the life you wanted. Did it happen? I guess, is the short question have you made enough progress now where you feel like, not that it's over, not at all. You're going to deal with this for the rest of your life. Yeah, it's over. Not at all. You're going to deal with this for the rest of your life.

Speaker 3 24:56

Yeah, Okay, but do you feel that you have made enough progress to write a book? And I knew that mentally I had the tools to be able to do that, because I knew that my book was going to be my own memoir and I was going to have to relive and refill all of the emotions that I felt before. Only this time I had the tools to be able to pull myself out of those states of mind, regulate my nervous system, do all the things that I needed to do to stay healthy. The other side of that is I knew that maybe people hearing my story and seeing that I was able to move through and heal a lot of my trauma and pain, that it would give others hope, right. And so my purpose of writing the book was not just to be cathartic for myself but to try to heal people around me.

Speaker 3 26:07

There was still so much anger and pain in the law enforcement world around my dad's death, especially because my little brother it happened in front of my little brother, who was sick and my dad saved his life and the other side of that is because it happened in front of my brother and my dad saved his life. A lot of the focus was on my brother and my mother and I was kind of pushed aside, yeah, so people had their own idea of my story in their head, yeah, and a lot of times it wasn't real, it wasn't right.

Speaker 2 26:45

Right, and thank you media, probably for a lot of that. It happens now. Yeah, I mean. It certainly happens today.

Speaker 3 26:52

Yeah, I mean it certainly happens today. So I wanted people to hear my side, wanted to hear what I went through, but to also see that I've been able to rise up out of it. And I had fear deep, exceeded fear when writing this book as well, for three reasons. One, my mom and I's relationship was hanging on by a thread and I knew that this book, because I had to be my authentic self and tell the full story that I had to tell partly hers and I had to be okay with. If she ended the relationship, I would have to be okay with that. If it opened a conversation, I had to be open to that. The second person that I was frightened about was my husband, because we have gone through a lot in the 40 years we've been together and I was afraid that this would bring up old wounds for him Also. The third was my safety. Two of the men there were three men that were convicted. Two of the men were still in prison and I was afraid of any retaliation when I put myself out there. However, every time these fears came up for me, I had to stand back and ask myself what is the real reason, the real purpose behind writing this book, and the purpose were those faceless people out there that needed to hear this message of hope and healing. So it allowed me to drive through those fears and keep going, and I preach this like when you're fearful, do it anyways, because when you get to the other side of that and your pain no longer hangs over you like a cloud, the feeling is priceless and you're able. This is how I knew I was able to see life in a whole different way. When you are in fight or flight, you are not capable of seeing things for what they are. You see things for what you want them to be, and so in doing that, I surrounded myself with some people in my life that were not healthy relationships, and I couldn't see that because I was such a people pleaser. I went into that mode and I molded myself into what people needed, and I no longer do that, and I'm very grateful for that Good.

Speaker 3 29:34

In writing the book, too, I knew that there were days where I was like done, I couldn't work with clients, I had nothing left and I had to give myself grace. You have to give yourself grace. Even on those days where you're grieving. You have to give yourself grace. You do and do something that, where you're grieving, you have to give yourself grace and do something that gives you joy Go for a walk, go sit in grass, go around yourself, take a bath, a bubble bath, whatever it is that gives you joy and some peace. Those are the things you have to do, and so those are the things that I did. Is I just go for a walk? Yeah, whatever it was, just to get in straight again.

Columbine Triggers and Finding Help

Speaker 2 30:19

Yeah, I have one final question, that the time has just flown by, but I'm just fascinated, not totally with your story but also with you, because of how far you've come and the work you've done and the healing you've done. But my final question for today is do you feel that if you did not find that particular therapist, that trauma specialist, and you had tried to go it on your own, would you be where you are today, mentally, emotionally? Probably not Okay. So if PTSD is connected, and especially if there's violence involved as well, that you really need to see a professional?

Speaker 3 31:00

Absolutely Okay. Think of it this way If you want to get to healing, let's say, healing is a place, right, right, the therapists are the ones that sit down and give you that map, right. So you have a map to the road to healing, right. And if you don't have that map now, some people I've talked to that have said oh, I read books, I listen to podcasts, I do all of this stuff. That's great. That should be alongside, right, it's a good start. It's a good start. It's a good start.

Speaker 3 31:32

However, you need the modalities to be able to regulate the things that are happening for you. If you don't have those tools and that's the issue, right. I'll give you an example before we leave so that you can see how this works in real life. A few years back, we had a shooting that was in Boulder, colorado, and a police officer was killed. He had many children. He was my dad's age. I, being the healthy person that I do, I do not envelop myself in the story. I know that it happened, right, it used to be that my husband was like don't watch the TV, get off your computer. No one to you.

Speaker 3 32:21

I'm like he's Sure, major trigger, let's not expose you to it, and so I, and it happened in a King Soopers shopping store. I went to the store the day after it happened and I walked into the store and they had a memorial. Now I don't live anywhere near Boulder, colorado, however, all the King Soopers had, sure, yeah. And I looked at the memorial, the board with all the faces on it and everything and I thought, oh, that's beautiful.

Speaker 3 32:53

But something started to happen to me as I was starting to go through the store and I recognized it the tingling in the fingers.

Speaker 3 33:01

I started to sweat. I knew that I was on the verge of a panic attack and I got through my shopping really, really fast, because when it was starting to happen, people were starting to look at me and I was like, oh no, oh no, you know, I'm not here to cause harm like right, right. So I got in my car and I knew which tool I was going to use in order to calm my, regulate, my nervous system. Again, right, right. And I started to do that on my own in my car. I do what's called box breathing and I did it until I felt like my heart was no longer pounding out of my chest and I felt calm. I was able to drive home after that and I was able to tell my husband my experience without it re-engaging me. So that's where if I hadn't learned from a professional how to do those things and have those tools, then that could have been a whole different situation altogether.

Speaker 2 34:13

Yeah, incredible, absolutely incredible. I'm not your mom I'm old enough to be your mom but I would say I am so very proud of you, thank you, and proud of how you were able to see what was necessary, accept what someone your husband and a doctor said to you. You don't have a choice. You need to do this To be able to accept that, rather than fight it like so many of us do, and find your way to where you are right now and then to turn around and offer your story, your support, your inspiration, to others who may be struggling with a similar situation. So kudos to you, susan. Thank you, really, kudos. Okay, we have to wrap up. Would you just, for just a moment, let people know I'm going to let you talk directly to our listeners. The floor is yours. Make sure you let them know where to get your book, because it's going to be in my mailbox very soon, I know Well here's what I'm going to say.

Writing Her Story and Finding Purpose

Speaker 3 35:22

I am an open ear If there's anyone out there that just needs a listening ear or maybe they have questions about their own healing or their own journey. I do have a website. It's susansnowspeakscom. On that website it's kind of a one-stop shop. So I have information about my speaking, I have information about my coaching and I also have information on my book. My book is you can get it in Amazon. It is in paperback form. It is also in Kindle form. Again, the book is the Other Side of the Gun my Journey from Trauma to Resiliency and I'm also getting ready to go into a studio to do my audio book. So I will be doing that myself with my own voice and looking forward to getting that out in the next couple of months. But yeah, I mean anytime anybody wants to have a chat. I do have a free 40-minute kind of discovery call that you can contact me and we can get that set up.

Speaker 2 36:32

That's amazing and so very generous. I've seen people offer like a five or ten minute free chat and everything but 40 minutes is very generous. Okay, I know maybe you've listened a little longer, but I'm guessing that most of you never even looked at the clock that this was such a fascinating story that I have to read the book. This is the stuff you see on TV for crying out loud, but it's a totally different perspective and I think it's a perspective that I know I need to hear. I need to get that insight into how this feels.

Speaker 2 37:09

I never went through anything like that. I've had some trauma in my life with an ex, but nothing to this level. And again, I am just amazed and enthralled at how you have dealt with this and gotten through it. So, listeners, I'm going to let us go. I hope you all come back for the next guest. The guests are fascinating, but this one, I think, is just going to rank as one of my very, very favorite episodes. Until next time, listeners, please take care of yourselves. Take Susan up on her offer, as we all continue to live and grieve.

Speaker 1 37:47

Thank you so much for listening with us today. Do you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or do you have a question from one of our episodes? Please email us at info at asiliveandgrievecom and let us know. We hope you will find a moment to leave a review, send an email and share with others. Join us next time as we continue to live and grieve together.