Consumer Debt Issues After a Disaster

Tune in as TDLH discusses consumer debt issues and how to fight debt collection lawsuits for those affected financially by a disaster. 

Guest Speakers: Paige Hoyt, Attorney of Legal Aid of NorthWest Texas 

Visit our website at https://texasdisasterlegalhelp.org/

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Transcript

Speaker: Paige Hoyt ( Legal Aid of Northwest Texas)

(Recorded December 18, 2020)

this is pablo almaguer welcome again

00:05

folks to the series of podcasts for the

00:07

texas disaster legal help

00:09

uh website if you haven't gone to it yet

00:11

actually if you're there right now

00:13

uh you know the website but if you've

00:14

gone to other sites to hear this podcast

00:16

you might know about it

00:17

it's

00:20

texasdisasterlegalhelp.simplejustice.org

00:22

you can go there for these resources and

00:24

series of podcasts and other resources

00:25

for pro bono attorneys

00:27

let me tell you what this is here in the

00:29

podcast project

00:30

uh we are a coordinated project between

00:32

legal aid of northwest texas lone star

00:34

legal aid and texas rio grande legal

00:35

aid aimed at improving access to justice

00:37

for those affected by disasters

00:39

our project allows both disaster

00:41

survivors and pro bono attorneys to

00:42

access critical resources

00:44

in one place while at the same time

00:46

making it easier to connect disaster

00:47

survivors needing legal help with

00:48

volunteer attorneys willing to provide

00:50

it

00:51

in this way the project team hopes to

00:53

increase the number of disaster survivor

00:54

clients who receive high quality legal

00:56

assistance as they continue to navigate

00:59

the recovery process after a disaster

01:01

and provide the support and mentorship

01:03

to pro bono attorneys

01:04

that they need to achieve that success

01:07

so

01:07

welcome again uh this is pablo almaguer

01:09

i'm the trla component of this group

01:12

here and our other two hosts are belinda

01:15

martinez from lone star legal aid and

01:16

stuart campbell from legal aid of

01:18

northwest texas

01:19

i will talk about consumer debt and

01:21

other issues today and i'm going to pass

01:23

it on over to belinda to introduce our

01:24

speaker

01:26

thank you pablo our guest today is paige

01:29

hoyt um

01:30

paige earned her law degree from

01:32

northern illinois university and has

01:34

been licensed to practice since 2003.

01:37

paige started a career in chicago

01:38

illinois and private practice focusing

01:40

on complex civil litigation criminal

01:42

defense personal injury

01:43

and family law she joined legal aid of

01:46

northwest texas in 2011 and is currently

01:48

the supervising attorney in the

01:49

weatherford office

01:51

focusing on consumer housing and

01:52

benefits law

01:54

she was also the practice team lead for

01:55

LANWT’s consumer practice team

01:58

paige also competitively bakes at the

02:00

state fair of texas

02:01

plays violin and knits she now spends the

02:05

majority of her free time hunting

02:07

squirrels with her eight-month-old

02:08

australian shepherd who runs her like

02:10

her own furry personal trainer

02:15

there's some benefits to an australian

02:17

shepherd but

02:18

i thought it was a mini he is not a mini

02:21

he uh we bought him as a mini and he has

02:24

bypassed the mini

02:25

uh size um limitation that's now gone

02:28

into a maxi

02:29

that's how puppies work they get bigger

02:32

this guy got

02:33

really big thank you for joining us

02:37

thank you i'm happy to be here

02:40

okay uh first topic um

02:44

and i'm really asking the question

02:45

because in the grand scheme of disaster

02:47

law

02:48

we're usually so focused on getting

02:51

assistance for rebuilding house or

02:53

replacing personal possessions we're

02:55

worried about evictions foreclosures

02:56

with the covid

02:57

 crisis debt collection kind of gets

03:00

pushed to the side

03:01

so why should we care about a debt

03:03

collection case

03:05

you know that's a good question when we

03:07

uh you know look at the applicants for

03:09

our

03:10

assistance a lot of times that question

03:12

is raised

03:14

um and and by a lot of the older

03:17

more seasoned attorneys because in the

03:20

past

03:21

um it was pretty much um they would

03:24

bring the debt

03:24

um to be collected in in the courts and

03:28

then a judgment would enter

03:29

maybe they would file a judgment lien if

03:32

the person handing property but it

03:33

pretty much

03:34

disappeared um however you know that was

03:38

and i'm you know i'm gonna say back in

03:40

the day 2010 but since then i've seen

03:42

such a change

03:43

on it um it has become a

03:46

multi-million if not billion dollar

03:50

industry um it is uh

03:53

debt paper is sold on the market

03:56

um to third-party debt collectors we

03:58

also see first party and i'll talk about

04:00

that

04:01

later but even and then for pennies on

04:04

the dollar so

04:06

um if you've got a billion dollars worth

04:09

of debt

04:09

and they're able to collect just a

04:11

fraction of that you can see

04:13

where there's actually a monetary

04:17

motivation for these um debt collector

04:19

companies to come up

04:21

so um in the pandemic in the disaster

04:24

we're currently

04:26

seeing and credit is a good thing um

04:29

it it can be bad once the the scales tip

04:32

but

04:32

um you know a good story my neighbor

04:35

who's paid for cash for everything

04:37

uh they've got a good um you know

04:39

savings account he wanted to finance a

04:41

large purchase and they say hey you

04:43

don't have any credit

04:44

now he could have bought that

04:48

for cash but he didn't want to but he

04:49

was really kind of shocked because he

04:51

thought it didn't matter but it does

04:54

if you want to buy a house if you want

04:55

to buy a car so

04:57

a credit um you know with people with

05:00

the credit cards and they're laid off

05:01

because of the pandemic they aren't

05:03

uh able to make ends meet i mean they've

05:05

got to provide shelter and food so i

05:07

think

05:07

a lot of people have leaned on their

05:09

credit which was good

05:11

to get them through the pandemic but we

05:14

are

05:14

seeing uh the gauntlets coming um

05:17

peter has got to be paid and if you

05:20

have ever got on the back side of your

05:23

credit card where you're

05:24

you're barely making the minimums and

05:26

you're just paying down that interest

05:27

it's never going to go away there's a

05:29

reason they give you that statement that

05:31

says it's going to take you 30 years

05:33

if you pay just the minimum and don't

05:35

have any more

05:36

charges so um i think it's really

05:39

important now for attorneys to care

05:41

about debt collection

05:43

because after the eviction wave

05:46

comes uh we're going to have a huge

05:49

amount of debt collection

05:51

that our our client or even the

05:54

community is going to face

05:57

thank you for that um i know you

05:59

mentioned first party debt collection

06:01

and i know when i took my first debt

06:03

case

06:05

the first question my manager asked me

06:07

is like well is it first party is a

06:08

third party is it collector is it a

06:09

creditor

06:10

could you kind of explain those terms a

06:12

little bit yes

06:13

and once again we're going back um if i

06:16

may to the 2010

06:18

mindset um what is a first party

06:21

debt collector this is when it is um

06:25

the actual holder of the account the

06:28

original holder so it's going to be your

06:29

wells fargos it's going to be your

06:32

uh citibanks your um uh

06:35

your chase banks and back in 2010

06:38

it was very rare to see a first party

06:41

debt collector

06:42

in the credit card industry a lot of

06:44

times they just wrote those off

06:46

as uncollectible bad debt and they sold

06:48

them on the market to what's called

06:50

third party debt collectors and these

06:52

are your

06:53

your midland fundings your portfolio

06:55

recovery associates

06:57

um and uh some of the others like uh oh

07:01

geez

07:02

um you know like there's some capital or

07:05

resurgent or something like that okay so

07:08

what they have done is they bought paper

07:10

uh pennies on the dollar so when um

07:14

somebody goes is it a first

07:15

party debt collector they're going to be

07:17

like oh they have all the records they

07:19

need to prove the debt they're going to

07:20

be able to show the contract

07:22

they're going to be able to prove the um

07:25

the contract was be

07:26

breached and they have suffered damages

07:29

when it's a third-party

07:31

debt collector that purchaser of the

07:34

paper

07:34

has to show a paper trail and show that

07:36

they have legitimately

07:39

bought the right to stand in the shoes

07:41

of the first party debt collector

07:43

and back in the day that was very

07:45

difficult to do and that's because

07:47

everything was based on breach of

07:49

contract so if you remember back in your

07:51

basic contract law

07:52

you had uh you have to have the signed

07:54

contract right with all the terms real

07:56

clear on the terms uh you have to show a

07:58

breach and you have to show damages

08:01

that the plaintiff you know uh fulfilled

08:04

their end of the bargain

08:05

and what would happen back in 2010

08:08

would be on those third-party debt

08:10

collections we would say

08:12

show us the contract and they never had

08:14

the contract because that

08:16

it's very rare that the contract would

08:18

have been transferred over

08:19

or it's lost i mean they're talking

08:21

these these attorneys for these debt

08:23

collectors they have

08:24

thousands of cases okay and

08:28

paige i don't want to interrupt but i'm

08:29

going to yeah go ahead

08:31

just so our listeners kind of know what

08:33

you're talking about i

08:34

look i'm biased on this i think the the

08:37

courts have been captured

08:38

um by this practice the jp courts

08:41

especially

08:42

you mentioned midland and you just

08:44

mentioned how many you just mentioned

08:45

thousands of filings and so

08:47

just while we've been talking i want to

08:49

share with you

08:51

and whoever's listening in the audience

08:53

so i just

08:54

went in the tarrant county court records

08:56

and searched midland funding

08:57

for just for the month of september over

09:00

450 cases they filed

09:02

and so that's what we're talking about

09:04

those are the types of that's how many

09:06

cases

09:07

one litigant is filing in one month

09:09

during a pandemic

09:11

uh trying to collect third-party debts i

09:14

looked at portfolio over 200 cases it

09:16

wouldn't come back with a full amount

09:17

over 200 cases i didn't need to lvnv i

09:19

didn't get to the cap the capital

09:21

recapture whatever it's called

09:22

but that's just a few of these in these

09:25

relatively slow months too at the end of

09:26

the year

09:27

um and so like can you kind of tell me

09:30

your reaction to that and then

09:32

sorry to interrupt but i want you to

09:33

finish your thought but just your

09:34

reaction to the amount of cases that get

09:36

filed

09:36

in tarrant county this is not even the

09:38

biggest county in texas no no and that's

09:40

just

09:40

that and it that's just what's coming

09:43

due and they want to file it right

09:45

so they're just doing these mass filings

09:47

and so these attorneys will come in

09:49

and uh you know back uh in 2007 when the

09:54

more the mortgage foreclosure crisis was

09:57

beginning

09:58

um in illinois the biggest thing we had

10:00

to do is get in in front of the

10:02

the foreclosure call because if you

10:04

didn't you'd be sitting there for

10:06

hours because there's just files like

10:08

this well that's what's happening in

10:10

this debt collection they are just

10:11

mass filing and they're showing up and

10:14

we'll talk about how that

10:16

is um you know you know why that it's so

10:19

easy to get the money when people

10:21

default when they ignore it they say

10:23

yeah

10:23

yeah i owe this and it just snowballs

10:26

into a disaster for the consumer

10:28

um but yes and we've talked to some

10:31

attorneys that

10:32

uh some attorney refugees have come over

10:34

from these debt collection

10:36

uh firms and you know what i'm talking

10:38

about and they said they had 

10:40

2000 cases that they were responsible for

10:42

that's crazy you cannot

10:45

maintain a you know touch every file

10:48

if you touched you know five files a day

10:50

you're still not going to get through it

10:52

in a year

10:52

so um so that's what it is it's just

10:56

these

10:56

these third party debt collectors just

10:58

mass filing and it makes a big

10:59

difference on the first party

11:01

um which are the the credit cards that

11:04

they're like no we're going to keep this

11:05

in house we use our own attorneys or we

11:07

have outside counsel that do it and

11:08

they're better organized these third

11:10

parties are just like these

11:11

masters throw it on the wall and see

11:14

what sticks

11:15

yeah and  i know we're going to get to

11:18

it when we get to the actual practical

11:19

application of what a pro bono attorney

11:21

or any legal aid attorney or any

11:23

attorney can do to defeat these

11:25

but the whole point of that context i

11:26

think and maybe i'm wrong but i think is

11:28

to show

11:29

that these are such mass filings it's

11:32

such high volume

11:33

and like you said uh like our attorneys

11:35

who came over cameron and arnetta from

11:37

from roush yeah uh they have 2000 client

11:41

or 2000

11:42

cases going there's no way they can

11:44

maintain that there's going to be errors

11:45

in almost every case

11:47

almost every filing is going to have

11:50

some type of error that you can defend

11:51

on and i know we're going to get to that

11:52

paige

11:52

yeah here's here's what turned the tie

11:56

here's the big thing this is why that

11:58

question came up as a first party a

12:00

third party right

12:01

because it was third party we would take

12:03

it and slam it with discovery requests

12:05

why because they can't produce the

12:07

contract right

12:08

the first party's got the contract

12:10

here's what changed

12:12

citibank was realizing that

12:16

they were moving to this practice where

12:18

they didn't have the person come in and

12:20

sign for the

12:20

the credit card they're just saying if

12:22

you use this credit card you get credit

12:24

and they send that stuff to you in the

12:26

mail

12:28

so realizing this they actually created

12:31

their own cause of action in the and in

12:34

texas court supported this and

12:35

everything i'm going to talk about is

12:37

going to be based in texas law so if

12:38

we've got any out of state folks

12:40

it might be different in your

12:41

jurisdiction just make sure that you

12:43

watch that but in the state of texas

12:45

they created a new cause of action

12:47

called account

12:48

stated not a stated account which is a

12:51

rotating account like they had back in

12:52

the 50s where you just come in and sign

12:54

for it and then they'll bill you at the

12:56

end of the month

12:56

but an account stated which means that

12:59

just by the action of you swiping that

13:02

card

13:03

taking the goods and then citibank

13:05

paying for that

13:06

you have created a contract

13:11

and that's where these third-party debt

13:13

collection that's why

13:14

it has exploded because they don't

13:17

have to have the contract now it's

13:19

called an account stated

13:21

and so that's why you've got these mass

13:23

filings and it's because

13:24

it's easier now to get the judgment

13:28

and so that's your difference now the

13:31

first party debt collector

13:32

you know the the citibanks they can

13:34

still come in and what they do is an

13:36

implied contract just through your

13:38

actions

13:38

because they don't use that but you can

13:40

still trip up the first party debt

13:42

collector

13:43

because now you're into more complex

13:45

discovery

13:47

so um so the question is you know

13:50

first party third party is it gonna be a

13:53

little bit more difficult with the first

13:54

party

13:54

yes but there are still some things that

13:56

they don't have all together because

13:58

they're talking about

13:59

thousands of defaulted accounts

14:03

now during my podcast i'm gonna i'm

14:05

gonna talk about debt collectors i'm

14:07

gonna talk about creditors i have a

14:08

tendency to talk

14:10

creditor plaintiff once the thing is

14:12

filed so

14:13

keep that in mind i might be switching

14:15

back and forth between terms

14:19

and um actually i had questions a little

14:22

off topic but

14:23

hitting third party on discovery since

14:26

the new rule came in

14:27

to play what are we asking for those

14:29

third party

14:30

to produce yeah so what you're asking

14:33

them to produce

14:34

is um a documentation that first of all

14:38

they purchase the debt

14:39

properly and what happens is on these

14:42

third-party debt collections they will

14:44

actually create

14:45

um and and the best thing i can talk is

14:47

like almost like a pour over

14:49

trust so you can do that as a an estate

14:52

planning vehicle you can sit there

14:54

and say okay um i have life insurance

14:56

but obviously it's not going to fund

14:58

until i pass

14:59

but that money's got to go somewhere so

15:00

it pours over into this trust that you

15:02

set out for

15:03

for distribution so what happens is that

15:06

a third party debt collector will

15:09

has a contract with citibank they make a

15:11

contract say i'm going to buy

15:13

and they they redact redact redact i'm

15:16

going to buy

15:17

you know this bundle of paper for

15:21

an undisclosed amount on you know in on

15:24

an

15:24

upcoming date and so then you've got

15:26

like the vice president will sign

15:28

and and say yeah we bought this called

15:31

the bill of sale and everything and on

15:32

that day

15:33

um a redacted um you know portfolio was

15:37

sent over

15:38

and then supposedly within this

15:39

portfolio there's a bunch of accounts

15:43

nothing really identifies the um

15:46

the account that's purchased so what

15:49

you've got when you've got your third

15:50

party you want to see exactly what they

15:52

have now there's a debate

15:54

that we do we go back and forth should

15:56

we ask for discovery in the jp

15:58

level when we talk about cases i always

16:00

think it's a good idea

16:02

and i'll tell you that why we come to

16:04

the end when i talk about my little

16:06

success stories

16:07

but you want to see what they've got

16:09

because this is how

16:11

you are going to work to defeat them if

16:14

you get to

16:15

hearing or if they file a motion for

16:17

disposition in jp or motion for summary

16:20

judgment

16:21

in the county district courts

16:25

and once again this is why do we care

16:26

about a debt collection case

16:28

and this because we

16:32

are able to provide a service for

16:36

um our client base which is really the

16:39

buying them time which it's buying them

16:42

time to breathe so they don't have to

16:43

worry about the

16:44

debt collection are they gonna file for

16:46

bankruptcy we can

16:47

kind of kick the can down the road and

16:50

i've had

16:50

really good experience with either

16:53

defeating

16:54

um the judgment or um

16:57

catching them in a federal

17:00

debt collection practices act where i

17:03

can actually

17:04

position myself in a negotiation where i

17:06

can

17:07

get them to um satisfy the debt where

17:11

they can't collect it anymore and

17:13

actually get

17:14

liens released or you know my my

17:16

attorney's fees and a thousand dollars

17:18

which is the cap and fed court for these

17:20

things um

17:22

but you really should care in the end

17:24

even if you're only

17:25

able to push it out for a couple years

17:28

um

17:29

it is a real benefit because it takes

17:31

some worry off of the client especially

17:33

now in the pandemic they've got to think

17:34

about other stuff

17:36

so i see in that you gave us a little

17:40

outline before this about issues

17:42

um i'm not sure how tightly we want to

17:43

stick to that uh

17:46

order of things because in this section

17:48

in this area about like we're talking

17:49

about why we care

17:50

i'm gonna share why i care and it's

17:52

gonna

17:54

it's gonna kind of tell and it's gonna

17:56

lead into some of the some of the things

17:57

that a

17:58

a creditor can do a third party a

18:00

creditor can do after judgment

18:01

um and i want you i would like for you

18:04

to kind of explain that so

18:05

i've had cases i i'm people who at least

18:09

or the first couple episodes know that

18:11

i'm primarily a housing attorney i do

18:13

some of these cases

18:14

too though i do some of these debt

18:16

collection cases too but

18:17

um i've had folks come to me after their

18:20

accounts have been frozen

18:21

after their wages have been collected

18:25

straight from their bank accounts

18:27

whether it's social security

18:28

unemployment benefits or just regular

18:30

employment uh wages after

18:35

uh having a judgment rendered against them

18:36

and and then having some post-judgment

18:38

collections efforts against them

18:40

in uh in these debt collection cases and

18:43

they come to me

18:44

not trying to get uh the account

18:47

unfrozen or seeking some type of help

18:49

they're coming to me as a housing

18:51

attorney because they can't pay their

18:52

rent

18:53

they can't pay their rent they can't pay

18:54

their car mortgage or sorry they get

18:56

their car note

18:57

their house mortgage uh they can't buy

18:59

groceries because all of a sudden

19:01

uh seven years after this judgment's

19:03

been rendered

19:04

they uh or eight years after they

19:07

defaulted

19:08

on the the credit card contract

19:12

their accounts are frozen and all these

19:15

dominoes start falling and then they

19:16

start the cycle of poverty they can't

19:18

get out of they're evicted now their

19:19

eviction

19:21

tenant history is is tainted and they

19:23

can't get into a new apartment

19:25

or they've lost their housing voucher

19:26

because now they have an eviction on

19:28

their record

19:29

so that's that's why to me these cases

19:31

are so important

19:33

19:44

as this studies showed in 2019 there's

19:47

40% of the united states who can't

19:49

survive a $400

19:50

emergency right

19:54

and so one card falls in this case the

19:57

card might be

19:58

an account being frozen and then

20:01

they can't pay rent they can't buy

20:03

groceries and they are they're stuck in

20:05

this cycle

20:06

of poverty that they have to be

20:07

completely perfect to get out of which

20:09

can take decades

20:11

and so that's why i care about these

20:13

Cases

20:20

and so um and this all leads into the

20:23

subject of

20:24

of what happens in post-judgment and

20:26

what they can do i know we're kind of

20:27

skipping around

20:29

but if if you don't mind quickly telling

20:31

us like what

20:32

what can happen if you ignore this or if

20:36

even if you have social security

20:38

benefits in your bank account if

20:39

a tenant gets defaulted or if they lose

20:42

in court

20:43

um what what can happen what are the

20:44

consequences

20:46

why should i care why should a pro bono

20:48

pro bono attorney care

20:49

yeah and that's a great point stuart

20:51

because initially i was i was talking

20:52

about

20:53

front loading it why do we care at the

20:55

beginning but really in the end

20:57

we should also care about what happens

21:00

after

21:00

a judgment enters because a lot of uh

21:03

folks a lot of consumers are like yeah i

21:05

owe that 

21:05

$2000 uh debt i'm just gonna you know not

21:09

show up in court let it default because

21:11

back in the day

21:12

you know and i know this sounds like an

21:14

old timer but

21:16

seriously back in the day um a lot of

21:19

these

21:19

uh debts were not collected on and

21:21

that's because the favored

21:23

um uh the favored method for

21:27

getting these um getting payment on

21:29

these judgments

21:30

were what was called writ of garnishments

21:33

now writ of garnishment

21:35

is um notice based

21:38

and um if i can i'll just talk about a

21:41

little bit and this is

21:42

the the new wave it's called a receivership

21:45

 but let's focus in on the

21:46

on the writ of garnishment so you got a

21:48

judgment in the state of texas the

21:51

judgment

21:51

lives uh for 10 years where you don't

21:54

have to do anything with it you can sit

21:55

on it for 10 years in the meantime maybe

21:57

it's being sold

22:00

on the market and

22:03

and then after 10 years if you petition

22:05

you can you can breathe life into it for

22:08

another two years so anyway this thing

22:10

lives perpetually you can always breathe

22:12

 life into it if you can address

22:14

it in time

22:15

so what they did was called the writ of

22:17

garnishment and what that is

22:19

is they believe that they find out that

22:21

you have a bank account

22:23

uh with chase okay and this is remember

22:26

this is the creditor the owner of the

22:28

judgment right now

22:30

so what they do is they file a

22:33

application

22:35

uh for a writ and uh they serve it

22:38

not on the debtor but they serve it on

22:40

the bank because the bank becomes the

22:42

defendant okay

22:44

so the bank gets that that notice the

22:47

application

22:48

and they and it says you know um

22:51

we want you to freeze the account so

22:52

they freeze the account as the defendant

22:54

they file an

22:55

answer then as owner of your account

22:59

they notify you

23:01

with the proper notice that says hey

23:02

you've got to come in four days and say

23:05

this is why the writ should not have

23:08

issued and should be dissolved and a lot

23:10

of people even ignore that

23:13

what the banks cannot do what the

23:15

judgment

23:16

creditor cannot do is they cannot take

23:19

exempt funds those are social security

23:22

unemployment

23:24

child support um uh

23:27

workers comp you know these things and

23:30

um but the bank unless that they know

23:33

for sure that that's a direct deposit

23:35

from social security

23:36

they just freeze it because they don't

23:37

want to get in trouble right

23:39

so then the the debtor has to come in

23:42

and say hey those are exempt funds and

23:44

they have to show

23:45

why well maybe you haven't

23:49

accessed that account i know when i pay

23:50

my bills sometimes i don't look at my

23:52

account for a couple weeks

23:54

well by then it might be too late so you

23:55

go to pay a bill or you have auto

23:57

deduct or you go to pay buy groceries

24:00

and all of a sudden it says declined and

24:01

you know you have a certain amount of

24:02

money in there

24:04

and sometimes people find out too late

24:07

after the writ because remember they're

24:09

not the defendant in that the bank is

24:11

and if you don't respond and dissolve

24:12

that writ that money is gone they have

24:14

to take the money and give it to the

24:16

uh the uh the judgment creditor

24:19

so what you're saying is even if you

24:21

have these protected funds in your

24:23

account

24:23

it becomes so if i'm being sued and i'm

24:26

on social security disability and i have

24:28

two months worth of social security

24:29

disability in my checking account

24:31

if i get defaulted on even if i don't

24:34

get the notice

24:35

or if i just get a judgment against me

24:37

and let's say it's been nine and a half

24:39

years and they decide to

24:40

request a writ of garnishment or i'm

24:42

sorry writ of

24:44

get writ of garnishment right now yeah

24:45

Writ of garnishment yeah um

24:47

it's it's incumbent upon me to challenge

24:49

that right and if i don't

24:51

then that protect that quote-unquote

24:52

protected asset the the money in the

24:55

account that's from social security

24:56

what happens to it it goes away they get

24:58

it well it gets frozen

25:00

at least i can't access it right and if

25:02

they don't address it it disappears so

25:04

um a couple years ago i'm just digging

25:06

around up in denton

25:07

uh looking for something like that um

25:10

and i actually see

25:11

the life of a debt, right so they they he

25:14

defaults on this

25:15

a petition the judgment enters and five

25:19

years later

25:20

they file a writ garnishment against

25:22

his bank account now his bank account

25:23

only had about fourteen hundred dollars

25:25

in it

25:25

he never responded the money disappears

25:29

now i couldn't tell from the filings

25:31

whether those were exempt funds or not

25:33

but they were gone he didn't answer to

25:35

him

25:35

here's the kicker with the writ of

25:37

garnishment and this is why

25:38

we're gonna segue over into uh

25:40

receiverships

25:43

the bank is a defendant but they get to

25:45

get their

25:46

attorney's fees and they have a standard

25:48

amount of attorney speech usually

25:50

six to eight hundred dollars so in this

25:52

of

25:53

uh debtors um case

25:56

he had 1400 in his bank account citibank

25:59

says okay i've got the funds but now i

26:01

need to get paid

26:02

$800 attorneys fees and that money

26:05

disappears

26:06

so now out of fourtneen hundred dollars

26:10

on a on a on something they've been

26:12

sitting there for almost ten years and

26:14

now had ballooned from ten thousand

26:16

dollars to twenty eight thousand dollars

26:18

he only got uh let's see 800 minus

26:22

um $600 applied to that principle

26:26

um not even that just for the interest

26:28

that it was like

26:29

accumulating it's a disaster nothing

26:33

but just the bank got paid they got a

26:34

tiny tiny bit and that probably went

26:36

from attorney's fees for them filing the

26:38

writ

26:39

so people are getting paid but it's not

26:41

going to the judgment

26:43

all right so what has happened so

26:45

remember back in the day when we say

26:47

first party

26:48

or third party uh collections and you're

26:51

like oh

26:52

well the old the old-timers old school

26:54

guys will say oh they're judgment proof

26:56

don't worry about it it's just going to

26:58

enter they'll never be able to collect

27:00

we'll give them advice on it

27:03

the problem is is just with that writ

27:05

story i told you maybe he

27:07

um was disabled maybe he wasn't able to

27:10

get to court

27:11

those were exempt funds but we don't

27:13

know for sure maybe it was unemployment

27:16

all right so the problem is with the

27:19

writ of garnishment it costs time and

27:21

money for

27:21

the judgment creditor so there is now

27:24

it's been around for a while but it

27:26

hasn't been used until lately over the

27:28

last couple years

27:30

what is called an application for a

27:32

receivership a receivership has shown up

27:34

on the radar

27:35

this is becoming used more and more and

27:38

what it is is also a notice issue

27:41

so back in the day um after a judgment

27:44

would enter

27:45

a discovery would go out and since they

27:48

were only using writs of

27:49

um garnishment um we're like well you

27:53

don't you know you need to answer it

27:54

but you know if you don't do it what can

27:56

they do they'll file a motion

27:58

to compel and then you better answer it

28:00

but you didn't really want to give them

28:02

their

28:02

their uh your your bank accounts because

28:04

you knew that writ garnishment was

28:06

going to issue

28:07

well now if after post judgment they

28:10

give you

28:10

a discovery request and you don't say

28:13

hey

28:14

um i've got this property but it's

28:17

exempt

28:18

and this is in my bank account but it

28:20

contains exempt funds

28:21

only you ignore that which somebody that

28:25

defaulted

28:26

on the original is probably going to

28:27

ignore that too

28:29

they now have basis to come in for

28:31

what's called a receivership

28:33

and the basis is that we tried to find

28:35

prop

28:36

or tried to contact to see if he had

28:39

non-exempt

28:40

property he didn't come back and say he

28:43

had only exempt property therefore we

28:45

know that he's got property in the state

28:47

of texas

28:48

i would like an order to issue that

28:51

allows me to go

28:52

and collect that they do not have to

28:55

give

28:56

the debtor notice of this receivership

28:59

action or this application

29:01

yeah they do not have to give notice at

29:03

all they just have to prove to the court

29:05

now it's the court's responsibility to

29:07

make sure

29:08

that they come in and say hey i really

29:10

tried we did this we did this we looked

29:13

but they aren't doing that they are

29:14

rubber stamping them and we have seen

29:16

this

29:17

the jps especially down in the  jp which by the

29:20

way their jurisdiction has increased to

29:22

twenty thousand dollars which means most

29:23

of your debt collection could be down in

29:25

the jp

29:26

they are rubber stamping these receivers

29:29

once that

29:29

order issues and it goes to a bank

29:33

the bank is not the defendant in the

29:35

case they don't have to give notice to

29:37

the account holder

29:38

they have to take the funds out of that

29:41

because there's a court order that says

29:42

when you get this court order

29:44

you have to take the funds out of this

29:46

account and give it to the receiver

29:49

there's no ifs ands or buts about it so

29:52

once again the same scenario you're

29:53

talking about stuart

29:54

you're coming in you're trying to pay

29:56

rent or buy food

29:58

and you swipe it and you see that your

30:00

account is

30:01

um frozen or emptied it's gone

30:05

it's gone under a receivership it's gone

30:07

you can't sit there and

30:08

dissolve the red or come to us um

30:12

so um that's where um

30:16

that's where the receiver is a dangerous

30:18

animal and

30:19

i've seen them all the time now

30:22

and just to put a finer point on it the

30:25

the

30:26

the reason they're moving away from that

30:28

is because it's easier

30:30

right the reason why these third-party

30:31

debt collectors are moving away from

30:34

Writs of garnishment and towards

30:35

receiverships is because they're

30:37

becoming more sophisticated in the sense

30:39

that

30:39

they know that they don't have to give

30:40

notice so it just goes straight to the

30:43

court

30:43

basically ex parte right and then the

30:46

court

30:46

and i can attest to this i know we spoke

30:48

about this when we spoke a couple days

30:50

ago

30:51

i'm preparing for this but i mean i was

30:53

in court this week

30:54

um and before my trial

30:58

uh there was a hearing uh and there was

31:01

it was a

31:01

it was a third-party debt collector

31:03

attorney and she walks up

31:05

well she i'm sorry she zooms in because

31:07

we're doing everything over zoom

31:09

and the the judge says hey how's it

31:12

going he addresses her by name

31:14

all right knows her knows them all

31:15

already um

31:17

and and he goes you got some receiver-

31:18

ships for me don't you and she goes yes

31:21

and he goes well uh as long as it's a

31:24

receiver that i know and that you've

31:25

used before

31:26

um do you have any orders for me and

31:28

then boom boom boom three three in a row

31:30

without even proving anything up with no

31:32

questions asked

31:33

just the only question was is it a

31:35

receiver that we know already

31:37

and yes they're in their court at least

31:39

once a week yeah

31:41

i mean the whole the whole hearing took

31:43

20 seconds

31:45

and then and those are accounts being

31:46

frozen and people being

31:48

potentially kicked out of their houses

31:50

or losing their cars or homes or

31:51

groceries because

31:52

no accounts so Paige in that situation

31:55

what can a pro bono attorney do

31:57

how can they actually someone with

31:59

limited consumer knowledge for example

32:01

that wants to try and maybe defend or

32:02

help with these what can they do or what

32:04

do you do in those cases

32:06

okay so the key to the receivership is

32:10

to

32:11

try to get it before that order enters

32:14

if the order entered and someone comes

32:17

to you with a receiver

32:18

you can still petition and say hey um

32:22

the debtor did not in good faith look

32:25

for

32:27

non-exempt um assets

32:30

and so you attack it that way um

32:34

there are and and you know forgive me i

32:36

i don't know exactly what

32:38

um the civil remedies or the um

32:42

the practice code has but there is a

32:44

provision that says they've got to prove

32:47

that they they use good faith efforts

32:50

that they really looked and they saw

32:53

that there

32:54

were non-exempt assets in the state of

32:56

texas and that forms the basis for the

32:59

order

32:59

now tarrant county god bless them

33:03

has put a a limitation on these orders

33:06

but some of the other counties

33:09

these orders live forever so um

33:14

so you want to come in you want to file

33:15

something right away a post order

33:18

and um and provide evidence that the

33:21

order did not

33:22

issue in good faith on the efforts of

33:25

the

33:26

um the person seeking the appointment of

33:29

a receiver

33:30

now on the practitioner side

33:33

you want to watch for if you are in

33:36

court that you've taken a jp

33:38

or a debt collection and you've

33:40

worked it all the way through

33:42

uh up to county which you should be

33:45

doing if you take these even if it's

33:46

down in jp you can appeal it get it up

33:48

to county and district

33:50

where the 500 rules drop away and now

33:53

you've got formal discovery and

33:55

formal uh civil practice rules you

33:58

want to

33:58

file a motion for new trial this motion

34:01

for new trial will extend the court's

34:04

plenary power

34:05

out about 105 days if he doesn't sign

34:08

the order denying

34:10

your motion if it just sits there you

34:12

can buy

34:13

a lot of time i had one success case

34:16

where he um after the judgment entered

34:19

the um i filed a motion for new trial

34:22

he uh the judge ignored it as this judge

34:24

it was ramirez

34:25

um our buddy stuart all right sorry

34:28

judge ramirez all right so uh anyway

34:33

and i god bless him for doing this all

34:34

right so um but anyway he didn't sign my

34:37

order for a new trial

34:38

and in the meantime the judgment

34:40

creditor filed uh or gave us discovery

34:43

now post-judgment discovery cannot be

34:46

issued until the judgment becomes final

34:48

when you file a motion for new trial it

34:51

the judgment is not final it has

34:53

it the court's plenary power is extended

34:56

so that judgment came through i was

34:58

still involved in the case so i said

34:59

okay

35:00

it you know uh you can file a motion to

35:03

compel

35:04

um but we won't answer it until after

35:06

the court's plenary power

35:08

it um expired in june right i knew what

35:10

day it was

35:12

and so in the meantime he didn't get a

35:14

response

35:15

so he's like okay of application for

35:17

receivership now remember that

35:18

it's still the plenary power is still

35:20

going on now

35:22

i'm mad and now you've got to do

35:24

something which is to

35:26

file um a motion or an objection to

35:30

the discovery and you could have done

35:32

that anyway i just i hadn't done it yet

35:34

um but then i did a motion to

35:36

dismiss or

35:37

um the hearing i mean he could have that

35:40

application

35:41

but anyway i filed it the guy and i

35:43

cited all of the violations he had done

35:45

so he pulls the hearing right because

35:47

the hearing was like within a couple

35:49

weeks after it

35:50

now the judge in his wisdom

35:53

knew exactly what day his plenary power

35:56

um you know expired i knew what date

36:00

the plenary power

36:01

expired he sets the hearing on this

36:04

receivership

36:05

on that day so he was going to stamp it

36:07

now the cool thing about this case was

36:09

this guy was disabled

36:11

she was receiving ssi child support

36:14

but she worked a little bit because you

36:16

want people to work to try to bump that

36:18

up but she was co-mingling those um

36:22

that income so she's taking non-exempt

36:24

funds with

36:25

exempt funds they were going to come in

36:27

and take her bank account and that was

36:29

everything she had to survive

36:30

and they were trying to untangle it in

36:33

time

36:34

um but uh the good news is that she had

36:38

enough debt that a week before the judge

36:41

was getting ready to stamp that receiver

36:43

we filed for bankruptcy and all of our

36:45

debts were discharged

36:47

all right so that's one success story

36:50

but that's how i was fighting receivers

36:52

but in the receivership case to ask to

36:55

answer your question again

36:56

pablo is you've got to you've got to

36:58

attack it

37:00

in that the person has exempt funds um

37:03

or and they didn't use good faith

37:07

uh methods to get that order okay can i

37:10

ask two procedural questions and we'll

37:11

get off of this issue but just because i

37:13

think it's important i don't do many

37:14

consumer cases i'm gonna probably start

37:16

doing some bankruptcy because another

37:17

wave is coming sometime soon we're in

37:19

december right now and we all know that

37:21

our clients are going to start seeing

37:22

debts uh pile up

37:24

um you mentioned the rules the 500 rules

37:27

and those are the

37:28

specific ones the jp courts so that for

37:30

the practitioner to know there are

37:31

different rules that apply to  jp

37:33

yes which includes limited or no

37:35

discovery am i correct

37:36

that is correct what you have to do is

37:39

you have to motion for discovery

37:41

okay so the first time i did this on a

37:44

jp i motioned for discovery and i had

37:46

what 15 questions

37:48

and the judge sends it back no no

37:51

okay no so this is where in a

37:54

practitioner in your county you're gonna

37:56

know

37:57

what that judge likes and what he

37:59

doesn't like so for that particular

38:00

judge

38:01

we had seven questions and he was right

38:04

you know oh come on you know what do

38:06

what we want so we keep them down to

38:09

seven to eight

38:10

questions right and then but you do have

38:12

to motion down

38:13

in the jp court because the jp

38:16

court judge develops the case

38:19

this is why in the jp and i think that's

38:22

in the jp court this is great practice

38:25

for anybody because

38:26

even if you lose a jp you get to a

38:29

second bite of the apple and appeal it

38:32

up to county court and that's when

38:36

the texas rules of civil procedure

38:38

outside of the 500 rules

38:40

and your rules of evidence come in

38:43

but you mentioned you found the motion

38:45

i'm sorry stuart but i just want to

38:46

make a fine point here

38:48

um you mentioned that you fought the

38:49

motion for new trial but is it in the

38:51

trial de novo

38:52

when you appeal up to the county court

38:53

at least no this was and i should have

38:54

made myself clear

38:55

in the county courts in the district

38:57

courts you can do a motion for new trial

39:00

you can also do it in the jp level

39:03

but really your best thing is just to

39:04

Appeal it and move it up

39:06

when you're doing a discovery motion in

39:09

jp court

39:10

um i actually kind of like that practice

39:12

i know it's it

39:14

it kind of feels like a level three

39:15

discovery in a in a higher court but

39:18

um i i'd like the judge

39:21

either okaying or not okaying discovery

39:23

because i've gotten some crazy discovery

39:25

back

39:25

in different cases from uh from

39:27

plaintiff's attorneys but

39:29

uh i what are you doing

39:33

mostly just requests for productions

39:35

you're doing interrogatories admissions

39:36

production only on the on the jp level

39:39

we tried the interrogatories and we're

39:41

like eh

39:42

you know let's just get production

39:43

because remember everything in jp level

39:45

is all about documents anyway they're

39:47

not going to bring in live people

39:49

right they're going to try to prove it

39:50

through paper not people so you just go for

39:53

you just go for the production so it's

39:55

funny you say that i mean i've copied

39:56

off you i learned from you basically how

39:58

to do this and so

39:59

now i only do uh seven requests for

40:02

productions in all these cases

40:03

yes that's all i do i think you use my

40:06

and you use the judge holland template

40:08

there's one more question that sometimes

40:09

i'll throw in there but

40:10

uh if they'll take it but seven is

40:12

usually the uh

40:14

the the limit basically give me

40:16

everything  give me the documents

40:18

basically you know so let me let me

40:20

segue into

40:21

this pablo in another success case with

40:24

discovery okay

40:25

and you know stuart you know as a we're

40:28

always kind of bouncing it back and

40:29

forth do we do discovery not and

40:31

also i want to tell you it is up to the

40:33

judge whether or not he's going to allow

40:35

you

40:35

discovering the jp level and i've had

40:38

probably

40:38

50% of the judges don't even sign it

40:42

they're just like no discovery and i'm

40:44

like okay that's all right i'll just you

40:45

know

40:46

um i'll just uh be

40:49

on my feet during trial try to see what

40:51

they're trying to get in

40:52

and and attack it there for being

40:55

untrustworthy or not

40:56

showing that you have the the debt those

40:59

types of things

41:00

but there are two case scenarios i'm

41:02

going to give you where that discovery

41:03

works

41:04

um and especially with Conn’s,  Conn’s as you

41:07

know is the

41:08

the people that you know uh into the

41:10

appliances you've got the guy

41:12

kind of creepy looking guy with the

41:13

mirror like romper room

41:15

and uh he's telling you your life will

41:17

change

41:18

if you if you open up an account with

41:20

with cons

41:22

twice now i've seen Conn’s contracts have

41:25

been sitting there for over

41:26

four years which is statute of limitations on

41:29

these contracts you gotta

41:30

be real careful make sure it's not a

41:32

stated account which means it's an open

41:34

account that you can come in and just

41:35

sign

41:36

but an account stated um where they're

41:40

trying to collect on a debt

41:42

that is time barred and we didn't know

41:44

that until i got my discovery

41:46

in jp level i saw that it was time

41:49

barred

41:50

and i amended my answer and uh did an

41:53

affirmative defense of a time bar

41:55

which means that they can't non-suit it

41:57

they have to address my argument it's

41:59

time barred

42:00

okay so this is um and this is down in

42:02

jp

42:03

um that type of response will also work

42:06

up in county so if the

42:08

jp judge denies your your discovery or

42:11

doesn't even answer it ignores it

42:13

it's okay because um you just take it up

42:16

to the

42:16

um the county or district court wherever

42:19

they assign it now you can do your

42:20

formal

42:21

they have to respond to your formal

42:23

discovery request

42:25

okay um yeah all right so real quick

42:28

just

42:29

on my success stories um i did a motion

42:32

for discovery they send it over like

42:33

good

42:34

because it's a different attorney so

42:35

they hire a local guy to come in

42:37

and so i'm sitting there and he thinks

42:39

it's gonna be easy remember he has

42:41

the two debt collections and he comes to

42:43

um he stands up there he doesn't know

42:45

and i'm an attorney but i

42:46

you know we start the trial and he says

42:48

your honor i have this you know document

42:50

showing the proof

42:51

and i said can i see it i looked at it

42:53

well lo and behold

42:54

uh it wasn't even the right account or

42:56

the right dollar amount now i don't know

42:58

if he got him mixed up or what but i'm

43:00

like okay

43:02

no objection so he puts it in so then i

43:04

stand up to do my fight

43:06

you know and they had actually pled the

43:08

account number and the amount in their

43:10

petition

43:11

he wasn't even going for the right the

43:13

right uh

43:14

right amount so they held for us they

43:16

held for the defendant that guy was so

43:18

pissed he had that second

43:20

excuse me that was so mad he had that

43:22

second

43:23

whoops leap um he had that second

43:27

case and he stomped out of the courtroom

43:30

and the judge says are you going to

43:31

non-suit this because yeah i'm going to

43:33

file a non-suit

43:34

well he never did uh two trial two trial

43:38

settings later the guy never shows up

43:40

they hold for us again now they're

43:42

refusing to take it off their credit

43:44

uh we've got a fair credit reporting act

43:46

violation will be in federal court

43:49

you know and that's those are actions

43:51

after you've gone

43:52

at the judgment level here you're

43:54

fighting but there are also for

43:56

those who might not know uh for leverage

43:58

purposes when you have a debt

44:00

there's also the pre-filing and

44:01

collection that activities

44:03

can create some benefits if you will for

44:05

the client to leverage him what can you

44:07

tell us more about that what they can or

44:08

cannot do

44:09

okay so you have your legitimate debt to

44:11

properties yes i i use those credit

44:13

cards

44:14

um we discuss time barred debt criteria

44:18

so when somebody comes and asks you for

44:19

help and this is

44:20

pre-filing that collection there

44:23

are a debt collection everybody's heard

44:26

them i mean i think the consumer now

44:28

is um is educated enough to know that

44:31

they can't call you at all hours of the

44:32

night

44:33

they can't you know threatening cuss and

44:35

harass you after nine o'clock at night

44:37

they

44:38

you know that well he's calling me at

44:39

work i know that if i tell them to stop

44:42

um uh contacting me uh that they'll

44:45

they'll you know they have to stop okay

44:48

so there are still

44:50

shysters that are doing that but for the

44:52

big guys for the portfolios

44:55

for the um the midland credit guys

44:58

they probably are not going to have

45:00

their guys doing that although it does

45:02

happen

45:03

um but you can't

45:06

you can't try to collect on a debt that

45:10

isn't

45:10

valid and what i say i mean you can try

45:13

to do it

45:14

but there are are certain tricks now

45:18

that have developed and these are these

45:19

guys that are trying to get a bite

45:21

because they know um that with uh

45:24

Credit um with debt comes fear

45:28

and because fear my life is going to

45:30

fall apart fear that my family and

45:32

friends are going to know that we've

45:33

gotten into credit card

45:35

trouble and the debt collectors know

45:38

this

45:39

the debt collectors know that if they

45:41

push hard enough if they make

45:43

it uncomfortable enough for you that you

45:46

are going to cave

45:47

um you know like my dog you know if he's

45:50

if he's making it uncomfortable enough

45:52

i'm going to go outside and play with

45:54

him right

45:54

it's exactly what they do so they used

45:58

to call and just threaten you and this

45:59

and that and all this other stuff

46:01

and and they can't do that that's a

46:04

that's a

46:05

fair debt collection practices act but

46:08

they have become

46:09

more sophisticated now they do what they

46:12

park

46:13

debts they'll go through and they'll

46:14

just park a bogus debt on your credit

46:16

report now people have gotten

46:18

better about looking at their credit

46:20

reports but a lot of times they go

46:22

in and they'll try to get a car loan or

46:25

they're applying for a job

46:26

and this bogus debt they don't even know

46:28

where that's come up is on their

46:30

account so they call the person up and

46:32

they're saying man that you know you owe

46:34

that debt now if you want to get that

46:36

car

46:36

and it's fifteen hundred dollars you're

46:38

not going to want to sit there and fight

46:40

for a long period of time to get them to

46:42

remove that so

46:44

people balance it out they pay it all

46:46

right

46:47

if they'll take medical debt maybe it's

46:49

80 bucks

46:50

and they will expand it out to $2,000 so

46:53

it goes back to a medical

46:56

event they know this person had this

46:58

medical event and

46:59

we all know the surprise billing where

47:02

we go into

47:03

the um a service provider especially

47:06

with the emergency rooms and three

47:07

months later

47:08

you're still getting bills from people

47:10

that claim to have looked at your x-rays

47:12

or whatever

47:13

it's just you know 175 bucks or whatever

47:16

and sometimes people don't pay those

47:18

well what they'll do is they'll take

47:19

those itty-bitty debts or a copay

47:22

um and they'll expand it out to two

47:25

thousand dollars so the person knows

47:27

that that debt there's a debt associated

47:30

with that medical

47:31

but they don't have enough documentation

47:33

to to say yeah okay it was really two

47:36

thousand or not the people out of fear

47:37

will pay that

47:39

um you know the park uh debts once again

47:43

you put something on there that

47:44

is questionable and people will just pay

47:46

it out of fear so

47:48

they have gotten much more sophisticated

47:50

on that so that's why

47:52

as a practitioner you want to find out

47:54

what exactly this is you want to look at

47:56

the paperwork they received you want to

47:58

look at it

47:59

because that's where you're going to get

48:00

into the in to federal court on it

48:04

and i'll tell you what a great resource

48:06

is the federal trade commission

48:08

and then the consumer protection board

48:11

they

48:11

especially the federal trade commission

48:13

they are

48:14

trying to track these guys down and when

48:16

you read

48:18

the type of bogus debt collection and

48:20

what they're doing

48:21

um then you become more aware of it um

48:24

you know the park debts the bogus debts

48:26

um when the person comes you say man i

48:28

swear i i

48:29

i know that i owe this person some money

48:31

but not this much

48:32

take a closer look at it this is where

48:36

us as practitioners uh providing a

48:39

service to our client

48:40

um once we become more and more familiar

48:43

about the tricks

48:44

of the trade we can identify it and

48:47

really

48:47

give our clients a fighting chance and

48:49

pave the way for people coming up behind

48:51

them

48:54

that's great information it's amazing

48:56

we've gone from jp rules to federal

48:57

court i mean it's one of the few i think

48:59

housing cases are the same way

49:00

collections are something else you can

49:02

be all over get great experience from

49:03

that

49:04

you know we have a little bit over 10

49:06

minutes left here but we want to make

49:07

sure we get a bit more information

49:09

uh what are also some of the debt

49:11

collector activities themselves that

49:13

they can do what specifically activities

49:14

they can do you mentioned you know park

49:16

debt but

49:17

other times um letters calls

49:20

yeah so they can can they do it what can

49:22

that create as far as a cause of action

49:24

for

49:24

the uh the person who owes the money okay

49:26

so the cause of action happens when

49:28

the on the last

49:31

date that the person paid i mean if they

49:33

paid the debt and then the first time it

49:35

it they miss it and then it gets charged

49:37

off and really it’s the charge off date

49:39

that creates the cause of action they

49:41

can ask

49:43

and they can say we are a debt

49:44

collection um

49:47

company and we are trying to collect um

49:51

on this debt and they have to give the

49:54

amount

49:54

the original creditor um

49:57

information regarding the account you

50:00

can contact them

50:02

and ask for that information they have

50:04

to give it to you in

50:07

30 days okay so can a debt collector

50:10

contact you

50:11

absolutely all right can you negotiate

50:13

with them

50:14

yes but um

50:17

but you want to make sure that you know

50:19

it's just settlement and not something

50:21

that's going to revive a dead debt

50:23

um texas passed a law now that they have

50:26

to put on the bottom of a debt

50:27

collection letter

50:29

if the debt is time barred and they also

50:32

have changed the law so if you talk to

50:34

the creditor you don't revive that debt

50:36

it used to be that

50:37

if you talk to them it revived the debt

50:40

which means that

50:41

the date that you talked to them began

50:43

the new statute of limitations which is

50:45

four years

50:47

so they're i mean they have a right to

50:50

collect the debt what they don't have a

50:52

right to do is make threats we're going

50:53

to take your house and everything else

50:55

which we've run across

50:56

from or run run across so sometimes when

50:59

i'm dealing with a debt collection case

51:02

and i hear that they're contacting

51:04

family members now they can contact

51:06

family members but only to get

51:08

name address they can't talk to you

51:10

about the debt they can't say you need

51:12

to pay this debt or we're taking your

51:14

mother's house

51:15

they can't do those things but if

51:17

they're contacted

51:18

if i say if you can stomach it write

51:20

down what was said

51:22

okay keep a journal of this stuff if you

51:25

can do it

51:26

and then we'll see what they're doing i

51:28

mean sometimes i do that if it looks

51:29

like it's really bad

51:31

if it if it is bad um i'll put down that

51:35

you know

51:35

we can ask them to stop but it will

51:37

probably trigger a filing if we're ready

51:39

to go then we'll do that

51:41

um but um but they can they can ask

51:44

for the debt

51:45

they can call you between 8 a.m and 9 00

51:47

pm they can't be aggressive

51:50

they can call your employer but only to

51:53

find

51:53

address and phone numbers if you tell

51:56

the debt collector i'm not allowed to

51:58

have personal phone calls at work

52:00

they have to stop if they don't it's a

52:02

fair fair debt collection practices

52:05

act so there are some things that

52:07

they're able to do

52:09

they just can't push the limit

52:13

and that collection like you mentioned

52:15

oh sorry go ahead pablo

52:16

no Belinda it’s your turn i'm sorry

52:19

i was just going to say for

52:20

pro bono volunteers out there that want

52:22

to take some consumer debt

52:24

generally you're probably going to be in

52:25

jp maybe county

52:27

but if you want some federal court

52:28

experience oh yeah if you've got one of

52:30

these

52:31

violations it instantly goes up there or

52:33

you know if you're interested in

52:35

pursuing a bankruptcy too another

52:38

success story we had

52:39

on a post-judgment uh collection i'll be

52:41

real quick with this

52:42

is that they uh sent over a application

52:46

for a receiver

52:47

and an order and it said that this had

52:50

been filed and that this order was in

52:52

place and they called her up so they

52:53

were going to take their house well

52:55

first of all you can't take somebody's

52:56

homestead

52:57

but they were telling her that they

52:59

could and she suffered a medical

53:01

event because of it and we had

53:04

everything and we waited

53:05

for like about four months and they

53:08

never filed a thing

53:10

in jp they never filed that receivership

53:12

well that is a violation of the fair

53:14

debt collection practices act

53:16

threatening to take legal action when

53:18

you do not or you cannot

53:20

and within a certain amount of time they

53:22

can file they say we're going to file

53:24

within a couple weeks that's just fine

53:26

because they file in a couple weeks or

53:27

in

53:28

30 days but they didn't file so we filed

53:31

in federal court got them served and

53:33

this was a big one

53:34

a big debt collector um and

53:37

um said hey you violated and this is how

53:40

you violated

53:41

all right they had a judgment lien

53:43

against her home too and this was four

53:45

thousand dollars

53:46

i negotiated just through that filing

53:48

they never answered because they don't

53:50

want to

53:51

be on the eyes of mordor they don't want

53:53

the federal courts looking at them

53:54

because they've been slapped down a lot

53:56

of times

53:57

we got them to satisfy the judgment to

53:59

release the lien on the house

54:01

and give her a thousand dollars now i

54:03

bypassed on the attorney's fees but i

54:05

could have gotten attorney's fees too

54:07

and we've gotten those another

54:08

um debt collection cases but she came

54:11

out of there not owing the debt

54:13

not having a lien on her house and a

54:15

thousand dollars in her pocket

54:17

um and these are things that that's

54:20

that are post-judgment so when somebody

54:22

comes to you with a post judgment

54:25

that's worth your time too in terms of

54:27

you know looking for

54:28

uh how you can assist our client base or

54:31

even as a pro bono attorney

54:35

have you ever had to do a jury trial in

54:37

jp court i'm just

54:39

wondering i'm going to make a point

54:40

about not yet not yet

54:42

but we are on a on a another um

54:46

a consumer law issue where the um

54:49

where the uh dealer it's a rv and car

54:52

dealer they sold her a salvaged

54:55

rv uh title and did bogus titling on it

55:00

and we've asked for a jury trial there

55:02

but

55:03

i have not had experience yet with the

55:05

jury trial personal injury i did but

55:07

that was up in illinois but not down

55:08

here

55:09

you know because um that's one of the

55:11

things that  i forget which city it was

55:13

that a large

55:14

firm in order to get their associates

55:15

some experience was interested in these

55:17

cases i think was housing cases i'm not

55:19

sure it was this

55:20

and they take them to trial court

55:21

because you can do a jury trial in jp

55:24

court and qualify to sit for your

55:25

specialization exam

55:27

after the several of those so if a pro

55:29

bono attorney or somebody you know is

55:31

looking into that and

55:32

they need that experience because it

55:33

might be pretty far apart you know

55:34

you're trying to

55:35

look for a jury trial you won't get them

55:36

in other courts especially federal

55:38

courts sometimes

55:39

yeah all right you can probably do them

55:41

in jp courts and well you can do it

55:43

you can do when jp and in fact we've

55:45

heard from our um our refugee attorneys

55:48

that if

55:48

uh somebody has filed a jury request

55:50

they usually uh

55:52

non-suited to get away from that cost

55:54

and the in the hassle of

55:56

of uh pulling the jury because remember

55:58

they've got

55:59

it's all about volume they just went

56:01

slam slam slam slam

56:02

yeah you know if they have to spend time

56:05

you know picking the jury

56:06

and going through that whole mess um a

56:09

lot of times they'll be

56:10

they'll just non-suit and hope they'll

56:11

you know maybe bring it up in a year or

56:13

so

56:14

they're still within the the statute of

56:16

limitations

56:17

time yeah the consumer law there's a

56:20

consumer law cle somewhere on the state

56:22

Bar website and it was

56:24

it was uh presented by one of these big

56:27

law law firm consumer advocates who

56:30

like have been doing consumer law for

56:32

his entire career and

56:34

one of the things he said pablo was my

56:36

new associates what i do is i tell him

56:37

to go take these debt collection cases

56:39

and try them he's like we'll we'll take

56:41

him pro bono and just get our

56:42

associate's trial

56:43

or trial experience um and then they'll

56:46

step up after that over after a few

56:49

months or a year

56:50

so yeah i mean it's it's taught me a lot

56:52

too i mean i'm a baby attorney i've only

56:53

been practicing for three years

56:55

and i've done maybe i don't know five or

56:56

six of these cases yeah

56:58

and these these little these little

57:00

trials are tremendous experience

57:02

builders

57:03

so yeah even attorneys it's a great

57:04

opportunity and even as a veteran

57:06

attorney i haven't done enough jury

57:08

trials

57:08

so um it's a benefit to the consumer

57:12

um and uh you know you probably say

57:15

benefit for the community too

57:17

i mean they're not aware of what's going

57:19

on in the in the in the

57:20

you know the bad debt collection

57:22

practices and trying to

57:24

to push paper through that doesn't have

57:26

any bases so

57:27

um so yeah it's excellent and it's a

57:30

good strategy too

57:31

i i think i just kind of wanted to bring

57:34

that angle out because i mean there's so

57:35

many nuances to these cases but i think

57:37

you can also kind of train

57:38

if you partner up also by the way for

57:39

those who are listening here said

57:41

experience pro bono attorney you have a

57:42

new one we wanted to learn this

57:44

if you pair up you can actually get cle

57:46

for mentoring somebody and you can

57:48

contact us we can give you more

57:49

information about that

57:50

up to five hours a year at 1/3 your cle

57:52

requirements for mentoring and also for

57:55

the mentee to learn the

57:56

the case so good opportunity yeah

58:00

but under the job i i think i might have

58:02

interrupted you understood about it you

58:03

were going to say something belinda

58:05

oh no i was just talking about what she

58:08

was um

58:09

saying if you hit them with jury trial

58:11

requests

58:12

or discovery requests basically if

58:14

you're big enough of a pain since they

58:16

do have so many cases and they get

58:17

paid by case if i'm not mistaken

58:20

sometimes they'll just be like okay

58:22

i'm i'm going to non-suit just take your

58:24

client and go yeah

58:26

a hundred percent like i've had cases

58:28

where i just have my client write what i

58:30

call a hard

58:30

hardship statement and send it over to

58:32

the

58:33

the plaintiff's attorney and they'll

58:35

dismiss it right so i've had a client

58:37

with some pretty

58:38

pretty um bad diseases whether it's

58:41

cancer or parkinson's or whatever and

58:42

they're in their elderly years and

58:45

they have four or five of these cases

58:46

and we'll send off hardship letters and

58:48

the same attorney will be on all four of

58:49

them right because they're all from

58:51

portfolio or midland funding or whatever

58:53

and he'll just i've gotten four

58:54

non-suits on one client from

58:56

uh from just sending over a statement

58:58

saying i can't pay this and i'm sick

58:59

basically

59:00

yeah it's not worth their time to fight

59:02

it and also our clients

59:04

they're not 50 grand 100 grand in debt

59:06

on credit card debt they don't have

59:08

those limits on their credit cards

59:11

three grand you know and then it's been

59:13

run up to seven or ten with attorney

59:15

fees and interest but

59:16

usually the principal debt is really low

59:19

amount so it's just

59:20

it's usually not worth their time right

59:23

so

59:24

uh paige believe it or not you just gave

59:26

us about a full hour here of

59:27

information happened be pretty fast uh

59:29

i'm actually going to go out and check

59:31

my credit report after having to listen

59:32

to this

59:33

i know that that's what i was saying i'm

59:35

telling you i'm going to find something

59:37

i know right uh and i do want to say

59:39

something before i forget about it we

59:40

didn't cover bankruptcy only because

59:42

there is a three-hour course offered by

59:44

the state bar of texas that we all three

59:45

actually organizations developed called

59:47

the bankruptcy in a box

59:49

for that practitioner who wants to

59:50

develop that practice to look into it

59:51

contact one of us or a legal aid

59:53

organization and we'll get you access

59:55

to the three-hour course if you sign up

59:57

for it you promise to take a couple of

59:58

cases

59:58

it'll be free for you and that'll be a

60:01

good compliment to this uh

60:02

podcast and cle here Paige is there

60:05

anything else you want to say here at

60:06

the end of the

60:07

of the the cle that you want to tell the

60:08

folks or just

60:10

yeah i just want to say hey you know um

60:13

uh

60:14

it really is a benefit especially with

60:16

our elderly

60:17

um i think those are the the biggest

60:19

demographic that's facing bankruptcy

60:22

here

60:22

and uh just having us here to help them

60:25

it really takes a lot of stress

60:27

off of them um you know it's very tough

60:30

for them it's very embarrassing for them

60:32

um and i know that you know as i counsel

60:35

them

60:36

um it really is a benefit it's a benefit

60:39

for everybody except for the debt

60:40

collector of course

60:42

um because but you know we're gonna

60:45

teach them how to practice law but it

60:46

also educates the bench

60:48

hey this this document is really

60:52

bad and untrustworthy so um

60:55

so it's just a great opportunity to

60:57

develop your practice get your discovery

60:59

skills in

61:00

an opportunity get up an appellate court

61:02

federal court

61:03

um and uh a benefit to our client base i

61:06

encourage everybody to

61:08

to really consider hard on taking these

61:10

cases

61:12

thank you paige this is a great  uh

61:14

belinda stuart anything else to add

61:16

at the end no just thanks awesome had

61:18

fun i've had fun on such a

61:20

such a riveting and subject

61:23

yeah and i don't want to make light of

61:25

it but i just

61:27

i'm just so excited about what we're

61:29

able to do that

61:32

it's hard to contain the energies so

61:34

much potential for good and something

61:36

that's so simple

61:37

yes belinda and i'd just like to you

61:40

know shameless plug

61:41

those interesting and volunteering check

61:43

out our website

61:47

www.texasdisasterlegalhelp.org

61:49

there's some news items on it blogs

61:51

legal issues

61:53

if you want to sign up to volunteer you

61:55

can click a button to volunteer and

61:57

it'll

61:58

take you to our simple justice site

62:00

where you can

62:01

create an account see cases that we need

62:04

help on

62:06

access to knowledge resource library

62:08

live chat mentorship opportunities

62:10

just go ahead and check us out

62:13

yeah but unfortunately for you all are

62:14

fortunate for you all you don't have

62:16

pictures of us so

62:17

all you hear is our voices there if you

62:18

go to the website folks this is late

62:20

december when we are recording this

62:22

have a happy holidays enjoy your time be

62:24

safe and uh thank you again paige

62:26

you're welcome enjoyed it