Growing up Blind Conversations with Dr. G
Host Dr. Grace Ambrose-Zaken, President and CEO Safe Toddles non-profit and inventor of the Pediatric Belt Cane for blind toddlers discusses why her mission is to make walking safer for toddlers with a mobility visual impairment or blindness. Listen to: Interviews with families, professionals, adults who grew up with a mobility visual impairment or blindness, and more. For more information about this blog contact: 845-244-6600, info@safetoddles.org
Growing up Blind Conversations with Dr. G
Doug born 1948 began O&M instruction in 1976
Today’s show is with Doug Schading. We spoke together August 15, 2001. He was born in 1948 and was visually impaired he had one good eye that had narrow field, but acuity of 20/80. At age 28 his vision deteriorated even in his good eye and he couldn’t travel independently any more. His perspective on traveling early with limited vision, his experiences with dog guides and long canes are detailed and provide an insiders perspective on independent travel.
Some of my favorite clips
A. I don’t know. I guess, for me, it was… I was having some problems with the dogs not working out and, uh, I don’t know… I guess I’m one of those people that…I’m with dogs like some people are with children. They like to be around them when they’re someone else’s and they pat them it the head and hold it and then leave they leave it and go home.
A. Because, if it goes with you all day long… I mean, people with pets, they can leave the dog home for a while or whatever. Well the purpose of the--and, therefore, to me, I always felt that, with the dog, um, that, you know, it’s like you were always on, there was no way to get away from the fact of how people interacted with you and people… The whole thing…
…I had a string of some problem dogs and the final dog, when I moved to New York City, she wasn’t happy traveling in New York and I just thought, you know, I’m not gonna…I’m gonna give it a rest.
A. I mean, the cane… Yeah, the cane you gotta… The cane, you can have a problem because, as we know, the cane goes under the low…does not, you know… The high objects, like the phone pole, phone booths on the poles and the, uh, the fire boxes on the street corners here in Manhattan…
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Today’s show is with Doug Schading. We spoke together August 15, 2001. He was born in 1948 and was visually impaired he had one good eye that had narrow field, but acuity of 20/80. At age 28 his vision deteriorated even in his good eye and he couldn’t travel independently any more. His perspective on traveling early with limited vision, his experiences with dog guides and long canes are detailed and provide an insiders perspective on independent travel.
Let’s begin
[side A]
A. Douglas Schading.
Q. And your date of birth.
A. 2/3/48.
Q. And, uh, where do you live…where were you born?
A. I was born in Rochester, New York.
Q. And where do you live now?
A. Uh, New York City…Manhattan.
Q. And what do you do for a living?
A. Director of Human Resources and Labor Relations for the State University of New York.
Q. Oh. And, uh, what is your highest degree?
A. Master’s.
Q. OK. How long have you had a vision impairment?
A. I was visually impaired since birth, but needed mobility and things when I was 28.
Q. What’s the name of your impairment?
A. Oh, I’ve had glaucoma, congenital cataracts… Excuse me, congenital glaucoma, cataracts. Uh, I’ve had three retinal detachments.
Q. Oh. So…
A. I’ve only ever had sight in one eye.
Q. OK.
A. So, that’s all been in one eye.
Q. Wow.
A. The other eye has been, uh, not working since I was six or eight months.
Q. So, you went from low vision to no vision, or…
A. No, I have light perception.
Q. You have light perception.
A. with inoperable cataract.
Q. _____ So, you knew all along that you were visually impaired…
A. Yeah.
Q. …with this and yet…
A. I didn’t need assistance. I could see to read, but I was always in sight saving classes.
Q. Oh.
A. …in Rochester for elementary school up to seventh grade and then the plan was, in seventh grade you got sent to your local high school, which was trauma, and then you went into the regular high school.
Q. So, when you say you didn’t have any need for travel instruction, that’s because you could avoid obstacles, you could see just…
A. I wore glasses.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I was corrected to 20/80 with a limited field.
Q. Yeah. So, plenty of vision to walk around.
A. [not read most] signs or the menu on the wall of places. I had to hold stuff close. Always people saying, you know, little boy, why do you have to hold that so close?
Q. Oh.
A. That stuff.
Q. So, what would you do about not being able to read the signs…what you mentioned before?
A. Gee, I don’t remember, it’s so long ago.
Q. Yeah.
A. I think you just. I mean, you just…you just… You don’t have any... I mean back then in the ‘60s you didn't have…McDonald’s was just coming into play and that’s where you had the restaurants with the menus on the wall at McDonald’s and Burger King so they weren't big in the early ‘60s.
Q. Right.
A. So, basically, you just went into a restaurant and sat down and the menu was handed to you and you held it close and you read it. As far as standing at a counter and having to read it on a back wall, that wasn’t an issue at the time.
Q. Right. As far as… Did you feel restricted in any way, uh, by your parents or anyone because of your vision?
A. Oh, yeah, I was definitely restricted.
Q. In terms of travel…was it going places?
A. No, but, um, I later found out that, uh, my ophthalmologist had prepared my parents for the fact that they never thought I would see as long as I did. But things had pretty much, um… You know, I wasn’t restricted in that respect, but I think it was always other… You know, their perception was that at any time it was going to go.
Q. Right, so they didn’t want you to do sports and stuff like that.
A. Yeah, I was definitely kept out of sports. Although now, when I work out now, and I’ve been working out for, like, 20 years, and, uh, people see you and they say, well, I can tell you’ve always been athletic and I laugh because, you know, I wasn’t… I was always restricted and then, you know, as a kid, took special gym in high school with the folk dancing and all that.
Q. Yeah. Um, so…
A. I never drove a car.
Q. What’s that?
A. I never drove a car.
Q. Right. So, um, in terms of, like, visiting people or, like… How would you go about doing that since you couldn’t drive?
A. Well, in Rochester, at that time there was a public bus transit.
Q. Uh huh.
A. A public bus system and dating and stuff, you know, um, well, initially a lot of my friends, you know, till they got to the age when they could drive, then when everybody could drive, then they… I either had to go with friends, which didn’t happen too often or my father would drive us and come back and get us.
Q. Yeah.
A. That stuff.
Q. Um, so, when did you get O&M instruction?
A. In 1977, when I was, uh, 29.
Q. And, do you remember what was the method used to teach you?
A. As far as what?
Q. O&M.
A. Well, I mean, I
Q. Well, I wonder what happened, first of all, that you decided to go and get travel instruction?
A. Well, in ’76, my vision deteriorated even in the one eye and I couldn’t travel independently any more.
Q. And, so, how’d you locate an O&M instructor?
A. Oh, I went into a full rehab program at the Blind Association of Western New York.
Q. How’d you find out about it?
A. Well, I had always been in touch with the Commission because they put me through graduate school, and then the condition worsened right after I got out of graduate school…
Q. Oh.
A. for employment then I ended up having severe glaucoma problems which resulted in surgery in ’76 which resulted in a lot of other problems. So, then, I, um, I’d always been in touch with my counselor because we were supposedly looking for work, but then I said to him, well, I’m going to need this instead and then he set it up.
Q. Cool.
A. So, the Commission Councilor in Rochester set it up. I was living in Buffalo ‘cause I had just finished graduate school and decided that I might as well stay in Buffalo where my friends were and go to the Blind Association of Western New York in a five-day-a-week program.
Q. Oh.
A. Full time.
Q. And, so…
A. learned Braille and everything.
Q. …did they… At that time, did you have a cane already or did that get you your first cane or…
A. Well, their theory there was, of course, until they felt you were safe to travel on your own, they didn’t even let you have your own cane and we were taxied back and forth from home to the Association on a daily basis. Then at the point where they felt you were able to travel independently, then you got to use a cane and come on the bus.
Q. Oh. So, um…
A. Because, you know, I didn’t see that well to travel…
Q. Yeah.
A. …you know, so… But they certainly weren’t going to hand you a cane the first day if you don’t know how to use it.
Q. Right.
A. I mean, that’s a common misconception, right? You buy someone a cane and then they’re all set.
Q. Right. Absolutely. Which is not…
A. Are you an O&M instructor?
Q. Yeah, I am.
A. Yeah, see I always fight for the fact that makes people realize that there’s a whole profession there on the Master’s level to train these people how to deal with travel because people still don’t understand how you do it or they think you just…someone buys you one of those canes and you’re all set.
Q. [laugh]
A. Say, wait…there’s a whole profession here of people who are out there showing us what to do.
Q. Well, do you…
A. Pretty extensive O&M program including you know started indoors…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …and, of course, we got into, uh, um, independent shopping in the local stores.
Q. Neat.
A. You know, that trip to buy stuff. And how to maneuver in department stores. And, uh, at that time, well really this was in Buffalo, the Blind Association of Western New York was located on Main Street, not too far from the main business district, so, um, you know, then we did buses and banks and revolving doors…you know, the whole thing with canes.
Q. So, how would that work? You would, um… When you were going to go somewhere on the bus. How would that all play out? Who knew…who got the bus route and did you--
A. The O&M instructor.
Q. Yeah.
A. That was your assignment for the day. In other words, they’d say, you know, then, of course, they’d work with you on your route to get there once you were determined to be eligible you know, travel-worthy…independent travel-worthy. They would work with you on your route to get there, to get home, with your cane. And then they would gradually say, OK, now, today, we’re going to take… I want you to go to [A&A] Department Store and I want you to buy me this, this, and this, and you’re going to take you know the bus and you knew where the bus stop was.
Q. Uh huh. Cool.
A. See, I’d had a little bit of this, though, in 1965 here in New York City when I could still see pretty decent.
Q. Yeah.
A. But, what happened was, in 1965, I was between my junior and senior year in high school and the Commission for the Blind…that’s when they first contacted us in Rochester and proposed the fact to my parents about going to college and they would pay for the whole thing…
Q. Oh.
A. …but they had a two-week…a two- or three-week summer orientation program for college-bound students…
Q. Sure.
A. …at IHB here in New York City. So, I was flown in and we went to a program every day. The men all stayed at the Industrial Home for the Blind in…on Gates Avenue in Brooklyn for me… I forget where the women stayed… And, so, as part of that, we did all the usual assessments, the psychological testing, and the different things, but they also did limited, um, mobility training.
Q. Right.
A. That… So… We didn’t use canes. I can't remember if they had me use a cane or I didn’t need one then. I know that they made us get on the buses and stand behind the drivers and things say, is this 1st street?
Q. [laugh]
A. Excuse me is this shit would the driver would go crazy.
Q. [laugh]
A. And then we did subways and trains back in ’65.
Q. Uh huh.
A. A lot of that I didn’t need but that was just part of the whole program.
Q. Yeah.
A. To be assessed, so the report could be turned into the counselor as to whether you were worth investing the money in [laugh]
Q. Golly.
A. So, that was my first. But, then, uh, but then in ’77, was, as I said, the intensive, uh, um, mobility instruction with the, uh, staff [that was] there and we had one or two sessions a day mobility and then they would plan big field trips. I don’t remember the places that we went now to give different experiences and then they did a drop off One day I think we did a drop off.
Q. What’s that?
A. Pardon?
Q. What’s a drop off? What did you have to do?
A. Well, they dropped you off.
Q. What does that mean?
A. They’d take you in a car.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And they’d just drop you off.
Q. [laugh]
A. [and you had to get] back to the Blind Association. Of course, they were watching from the bushes and all this, but…
Q. Oh, you knew they were watching.
A. No, but, I mean, you know they aren’t going to do anything dangerous. But part of it was to think… You know, one of the biggest things that they tried to encourage people to do…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …was to learn to use the public…
Q. Yeah.,
A. …and ask well where are you and ask for instructions and… Which is the hardest thing that most people want to deal with…
Q. Sure.
A. …to stop and ask somebody, where am I. You know, where is the number 20 bus stop, you know…
Q. What are some strategies that you all worked on for that…working with the public.
A. Well, just asking.
Q. Oh, there are…
A. Some people hesitate. I mean, I know people who won’t ask. I was out with people and they were too embarrassed to ask, too embarrassed to stand on the street corner with their cane and… You know dealing with those issues and the mobility bringing them out of the Association forced them to deal with issues they were having trouble with to begin with.
Q. Yeah.
A. So, the mobility instruction seemed to try to encompass a couple of things and those people that had trouble with mobility were people who had trouble with the whole thing and they didn’t want to learn the Braille and eventually they stopped coming and…
Q. Yeah.
A. …that was it.
Q. Yeah. Um, so, did you pass your drop off?
A. Probably.
Q. What do you mean?
A. Cause that's no, because I’m here today so I didn’t get lost.
Q. [laugh] Well, they would have bailed you out, huh?
A. Yeah. I mean, there was nothing dangerous. I mean, probably I was just down on one of the city streets, you know.
Q. Did you have to take a bus to get back, or…
A. I just don’t remember ‘cause, you know, it was back in ’77.
Q. I mean…
A. Let me put it this way, it wasn’t traumatic, so I don’t remember it.
Q. Right.
A. Like, I don’t feel like --…
Q. Well, it seems like you could just hail a cab and get in a cab and say…
A. sure I know--
Q. …take me back. [laugh]
A. …panic either, so it’s like I was totally … and I knew the city. I lived there. So it's not… for me, I don’t remember it being a major problem.
Q. Right. But, would that have been allowed, like, just to call a cab? [laugh]
A. I don’t remember the rules.
Q. [laugh] you know…
A. I think you were not supposed to do that.
Q. [laugh]
A. You could take a bus or something, but like a say I don’t remember all the details and I…
Q. Uh huh.
A. I remember that part of it was…and the purpose was to encourage you to, um…
Q. to get…
A. …to ask people.
Q. Yeah.
A. See, when they say, OK, here you are, you’ll be all set. I mean you have to ask somebody and they definitely left you off at places where there were going to be people to ask.
Q. Uh huh.
A. You know…
Q. So, what, what were you going to ask them…where, where am I?
A. You know, what corner am I on? Or something.
Q. Yeah.
A. You know something, you try to ask something--not sound too blind-like where am I?
Q. Right. Right.
A. Oh, are you lost? Which, of course, which the public thinks you are anyway.
Q. Sure.
A. All the time, they don’t think you know where you’re going. So, uh, you know, I guess that would have been my goal at the time was to come up with a way to find out where I…what my bearings were without looking too helpless.
Q. Yeah. So, how many different types of, uh, mobility tools have you tried?
A. I tried the regular cane. I’ve had a dog. Actually, I’ve had a number of dogs. Now I haven’t had a dog for ten years.
Q. So, now you use a cane.
A. I've been using the cane for the last ten years.
Q. Why is that?
A. I just prefer it at this point. I don’t discourage anyone from doing it, but…and I’m not saying I wouldn’t do it again if conditions change.
Q. Uh huh. But, why… Tell me why.
A. I don’t know. I guess, for me, it was… I was having some problems with the dogs not working out and, uh, I don’t know… I guess I’m one of those people that…I’m with dogs like some people are with children. They like to be around them when they’re someone else’s and they pat them it the head and hold it and then leave they leave it and go home.
Q. [laugh] So, it's about it is a dog and it has to be taken care of and whatever.
A. Oh, it’s not a question of taking care of it. It’s a question of, uh, the, you know… I mean, it’s just… To me, you’re, you’re always…there’s no down time when you’ve got a dog, I feel.
Q. Yeah.
A. Because, if it goes with you all day long… I mean, people with pets, they can leave the dog home for a while or whatever. Well the purpose of the--and, therefore, to me, I always felt that, with the dog, um, that, you know, it’s like you were always on, there was no way to get away from the fact of how people interacted with you and people… The whole thing…
Q. Yeah.
A. The reason I remember now for not staying with it, though, was, I had had, like, five dogs in twelve years or something, you know, and…
Q. Yeah.
A. …I had a string of some problem dogs and the final dog, when I moved to New York City, she wasn’t happy traveling in New York and I just thought, you know, I’m not gonna…I’m gonna give it a rest.
Q. Right. Well, it sounds like…
A. Yeah, I had one dog for seven years, then two dogs for a year each…
Q. Oh.
A. …then one dog for four years, and then a dog for a year, and I decided to… And it was a very difficult decision at the time because my dog was from a guide dog school which I liked the people and I had, uh, raised money for them and I was on their board of directors.
Q. Well, I happen to know that’s Guiding Eyes [laugh]
A. What?
Q. That’s the Guiding Eyes…
A. Why?
Q. ‘Cause, uh, Audrey told me… [laugh]
A. Audrey told you.
Q. So, but… We won’t be saying anything bad about anybody.
A. No, I would never saying anything bad about them, I mean…
Q. No.
A. …because it could have been my fault.
Q. Yeah.
A. Because I’m just too, you know, finicky about things.
Q. How is it when it doesn’t work? I mean, what, what happens? Tell me what that’s like.
A. Well, you’re crossing a street, the dog, you know, veers out into the intersection first, you know, because or -- Just all kinds of little things can go wrong with the dog. You know distractions…
Q. the distractions… Were they just…
A. and of course, little picky things for me are, you know, when you get somewhere, your clothes are all a mess because the dog’s got hair all over you…
Q. Yeah.
A. No matter how much you brush and
Q. Yeah.
A. I’m sitting on the bus and the dog is drooling on your knee…
Q. [laugh]
A. …making a yellow stain.
Q. [laugh]
A. It sounds a little picky…
Q. [laugh] That’s pretty serious…
A. I can't overlook, so.
Q. That’s right. That’s very true.
A. That’s why I say, I would never do… I never… I never would say that I would not do it again because if I suddenly was totally blind, I may decide that I do want to do that.
Q. Right.
A. And, uh, I would definitely go back to Guiding Eyes.
Q. Neat.
A. as well.
Q. Were all your dogs from Guiding Eyes?
A. Yeah.
Q. Yeah. Neat. How’d you find them?
A. Well, the O&M instructors at Blind Association were pro-dog and, um, so, they got us into the Like, I had, I mean in February of ’77, I had started mobility instruction and by June of ’77, I had a dog.
Q. Yeah. So, I mean…
A. They were pro-dog. It seemed like a good idea.
Q. Yeah. And, and did you like it better than the cane at the time?
A. I don’t need the cane that much.
Q. Right.
A. I mean, the cane… Yeah, the cane you gotta… The cane, you can have a problem because, as we know, the cane goes under the low…does not, you know… The high objects, like the phone pole, phone booths on the poles and the, uh, the fire boxes on the street corners here in Manhattan…
Q. Yeah.
A. …and the electronic boxes and you trip people and people step on it and break it and, you know… There’s a lot of things that we know that the cane doesn’t detect…
Q. Right.
A. …and that’s what the primary selling point is supposed to be of the dog.
Q. Right.
A. But I had dogs that walked me into branches. I had dogs that walked me, you know, for whatever reason… I mean, they do their best but the important thing is, of course, as everyone knows, they’re not machines and they makes mistakes and…
Q. Sure.
A. …you know.
Q. Sure. Um, what about the patterning? I mean, how did you do that, or how did you…
A. What?
Q. Patterning a dog to different routes?
A. Well, they pick it up.
Q. Yeah.
A. I've a
Q. So, it’s not really a formal thing that you…
A. Well, first of all…
Q. Yeah.
A. …as you probably know as an O&M instructor…
Q. What? I don’t know…maybe I don’t…
A. …the dog is not supposed to be the one in control.
Q. Right.
A. If that happens, you’re in trouble.
Q. Right.
A. The person is always supposed to be in control of the dog. Meaning the person always is supposed to know where he or she is.
Q. Uh huh.
A. You’re never supposed to pick up the harness and let the dog, just out of habit, take you to the pharmacy because, nine times out of ten, when you make a left-hand turn at your corner you go to the pharmacy, and then you count on the fact that the dog's going to take you there.
Q. Right.
A. That’s the first violation of guide dog usage. The schools tell you that.
Q. Yeah.
A. You’re always supposed to know where you are and you tell the dog left or right.
Q. Yeah.
A. Because if the dog starts being in control and you’re just a big dummy hanging on, then you’re in serious trouble because then you don’t know where you’re going to end up and you’ll be crossing streets… And I know people like that. I know people that get the dog and they, and, um, they count on the fact that the dog is going to know their routine and get them where they want to go.
Q. Wow.
A. And they suddenly find themselves in another place because the dog saw this other cute little dog down the street.
Q. [laugh] oh no
A. And they have directionality problems so they didn’t pick up that the dog went left instead of right.
Q. Oh. Well, I know, that’s…
A. So, it’s not question, so you’ve gotta know your route…
Q. Yeah.
A. …and you can tell the dog where to go.
Q. Right.
A. Yeah.
Q. So, patterning is not something that you do formally or, really, you know that the dog is picking up common patterns but you have to do your best…
A. The dog will only pick…is picking up common patterns but they’re not supposed to pick them up to the extent that you, I mean, that’s part of the dog’s nature, I’ve been told. And there are dogs that they will tell you at school that they know there are people with serious problems…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …that I’ve heard referred to as homers, meaning they can always count on knowing how to get home. You know, not to be funny, but that’s what I’ve heard them called, homers.
Q. Yeah.
A. Because there are people who have problems and they need a dog that’s gonna be…but, but nine out of ten dog users as opposed they have a homer, will just…tell them pharmacy and they go to the pharmacy.
Q. Hm.
A. and you don’t want that.
Q. No. But I have heard in the literature that there is this thing called patterning, that’s all.
A. And, and what does that mean?
Q. To me…
A. Remember I've been out of this now for ten years.
Q. To me, it was that you do, um, like, there’s a place that you want to go with the dog and so you can, like, teach yourself the place but at each choice point or something, then you’re going to walk the dog through it a couple of times. I don’t know... [laugh] It doesn’t make much sense after what you just said, though. [laugh]
A. well they change their theories…
Q. But, uh…
A. I mean, there are certain things you count on, yes. I mean, look, yes… You go down the street with the dog and, and you want to find the left…the first door on the left where you know about what time… I mean, let’s say you’re walking down a city street with all these stores.
Q. OK.
A. And you’re going down and let’s say the stores are all on your left and the street is on your right.
Q. Right.
A. You’re on the sidewalk. So, you know that, halfway down the block, is your pharmacy…staying with that as an example…
Q. OK.
A. …and, so, you’re going to say about when you think you’re almost there, you’re going to say, start giving the command to look for a door on the left. You’re going to say, left left, left left, left left. Now yeah, you’re going to hope that the dog has picked up that, because this is the pharmacy and you’re in this block, and you’re saying left left, left left, left left, that they’re going to head for that door.
Q. OK.
A. Now, maybe that’s what they’re referring to.
Q. Cool.
A. But to stand at the beginning of the street and not say a word to the dog or give a command and just hope he takes you there because that’s where you’ve been before, which some people have been known to do…
Q. I see.
A. …that’s different to me.
Q. Well, yeah, that absolutely sounds different. It sounds like you’re sort of holding on…
A. So you having them pick out something but you’re still in control saying you’re telling him to make the left…
Q. Sure.
A. …to look for that left door.
Q. Sure.
A. It’s different than someone just walking down the street without saying a word. Because see, even with that patterning, or whatever it’s called, is the example I just gave. What you’ve gotta be prepared for is…that you go down that street and this time you’re going a block further down to the movie theater, that dog is still gonna try to take you into that pharmacy.
Q. Right.
A. Because they’re used to the fact that when you pass there, you go there.
Q. Right.
A. And then you have to say, good boy, good boy. Reinforce the fact that, yes, you showed me this, this is good, but this isn’t where we’re going. Now keep going.
Q. Yeah. Cool.
A. Because they will, you know… Because they, they, they learn through, you know, I'm told, but I’m no expert on this, dogs and what they can and can’t do other than the fact that they will learn places from repetition, going there.
Q. Yeah. Yeah. And also…
A. Audrey’s dog…you can’t go down Lexington Avenue without that dog coming to this apartment building.
Q. Oh.
A. Because he’s, she's been here, and he sees it and he thinks that where she’s going.
Q. Right. So, she has to, like, work him.
A. Right.
Q. Yeah. But you still want to praise them…
A. You want to praise him for showing you a place that, if you ever wanted to go back there again…
Q. Yeah. Neat.
A. If you start correcting him for stopping, then, of course, you’re…
Q. Sure.
A. …you’re not going to stop there again. He’s going to learn his lesson.
Q. Right.
A. You’ll want to go there, and he won’t go.
Q. Right. [laugh] That wouldn’t work.
A. Right.
Q. How many canes do you own?
A. Right now, I have… Well, I have one that I use all the time. I probably have a back-up. I probably have a few bent ones that I haven’t thrown away yet.
Q. Um, so, what is… What brand… What…
A. Oh, I don’t know. I have whatever the Lighthouse handed me.
Q. Where’d you get it? From the Lighthouse…
A. Yeah.
Q. And, uh, do you know… Well, what is it? Is it like a folding or…
A. Yeah, it’s folding.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I never would use a straight cane.
Q. Why is that?
A. Well, because what are you going to do… I mean, I like the fact that, with a cane you can go into a place, you can fold it up and not be conspicuous.
Q. Yeah.
A. I have friends, of course, that would argue that a folding cane is no good and they only use a straight cane and, of course, when they get places, they have trouble with where are you going to put it so it’s not out there…
Q. Where… What do you do with that back-up?
A. Well, I claim I probably have a back-up because I was going through my closet and I found one that looks like it’s still not too bent and I would call that a back-up, but I really only use…function with one cane.
Q. Oh, OK. What kind of tip is on it?
A. Well, when I went the last time to get the cane I got now, they’d changed brands at the Lighthouse and now they’ve got some with this big mushroom thing at the end which at first I didn’t like, but I guess it’s all right. And the price went up from seventeen dollars to twenty-nine…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …so, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t pay attention to these things. You buy them ‘cause you have to.
Q. Yeah.
A. And I usually don’t have a choice. I mean, this is what they carry at the time that I buy it and that’s it.
Q. I hear you. So…
A. You know though Audrey got me one once from the Jewish Guild…
Q. Uh huh.
A. O&M department and it folded smaller, which I kind like…
Q. The six-section.
A. six sections
Q. Yeah. The six-section. So you have a…
A. Yeah, can't find them at the Lighthouse.
Q. Well, you know… I don’t know if you get on the Internet or not…
A. Oh, yeah, I do, but…
Q. ..because they do sell canes on the Internet.
A. Yeah, I know…From Ann Morrison, all different places…
Q. OK.
A. ____ yeah…
Q. They’ve got lots of choices.
A. Right.
Q. Almost too many. [laugh] But, yeah, I mean, they have all the choices out there.
A. Yeah.
Q. That’s not interesting to you…
A. What?
Q. …that you could get one off the Internet.
A. Well, I suppose… I mean, I buy other stuff off the Internet, but I just never got involved in buying any of that stuff. I’m usually just, like, I want it now, so I go up there and buy it from the Lighthouse.
Q. Yeah.
A. They usually have, you know, what I want, so that’s fine.
Q. Yeah. So, um, how do you get to and from work?
A. I walk.
Q. That’s very nice. And, uh, how long of a walk is it?
A. I think it’s running me about…I’ve been doing it for a year. We just moved our offices. It’s probably taken me about 20 minutes, depending on obstacles.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Traffic.
Q. Do you have any strategies for walking 365 days a year? [laugh] Or things that you’ve picked up for this year.
A. Oh, no, just the route. I mean, I definitely stay off of 42nd…I take back streets.
Q. And that’s because…
A. Well, there are just too many people on 42nd at that time of the morning.
Q. Yup.
A. And, so, uh, I just used side streets til I get to Fifth Avenue and then I go up to 42nd and then I cross at the block between Fifth and Sixth on 42nd cross at Bryant Park.
Q. Cool. Now you were telling me about a longer commute that you once had when you lived upstate, as some people call it.
A. Yeah, that’s when I had the dog though too.
Q. Uh, would you pass along any strategies that you developed for, uh, taking the train?
A. No.
Q. Nope
A. I mean, I don’t think there’s anything other than what they tell you.
Q. What is that?
A. Well, you know, you, sort of, wait there on the platform until they get the doors open and… I’m not sure…
Q. Is the dog able to find an empty seat, or how do you do that?
A. Oh, the empty seat?
Q. Yeah.
A. Oh, well, most likely the dog just goes up to the first person and sit there until they can get their head in their lap and get petted behind the ear--
Q. [laugh]
A. ________ that
Q. So, in other words, no. [laugh] So, how do you locate one?
A. Well, now when I get on, I just sort of, um, you know, stand there for a second. Generally, people will say, there’s a seat here, there’s a seat there, or, if there’s a conductor or…
Q. Oh, nice.
A. But I still take the train from, you know, Audrey’s.
Q. Uh huh. So, still today…
A. Subways, I stand up. I generally tend to stand on subways, I don't worry about it.
Q. Oh, really. That’s neat. Do you have any strategies for, you know, learning, uh, new routes on the subway? New places…
A. No.
Q. No. Where to get off or how to get there or…
A. Well, you’ve just got to pay attention. You know, most of the… I mean, I don’t take the subway that often. I don’t need to take the subway that often. I either walk or take the bus.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Based on where I’m living and where I’m tending to go. So, um…
Q. Have you ever been dis…
A. I remember the last time… Well, I was on the subway probably, oh I don’t know, a couple of months ago at least, probably. see I really you don’t have to really… Yeah, it was about a month ago… I was on the subway…went down to the Village.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I took the subway at Seventh and 34th and Canal.
Q. So, it doesn't sound as if anything noteworthy happens. It’s all very matter of fact.
A. Well…
Q. What’s the difference between the dog and the cane on the subway?
A. Um, well, I mean, the dog is supposedly, you know, if all things are working out…the dog will take you to the turnstile as opposed to sort of tapping around and having to [guess] to where people are coming through it. And that and, of course, when the train pulls up, the dog is supposed to take you to the open door.
Q. Uh huh.
A. But, then, you know, it cuts out having to find it on your own, but, you see, ‘cause I have a little bit of light perception and because you just learn to listen for… I mean, the problem is… I mean, there are times…there have been times when the train’s pulled in but there’s so much noise in the station from the train on the other side that I’m not sure that the train really has pulled in…
Q. Right.
A. …so, if no one says anything to me, then I wait and I suddenly realize that the train’s pulling out… But it’s better to be safe than to think that there’s one there and maybe there isn’t, you know.
Q. Yeah.
A. [adjusted to] the noise level and that.
Q. So, so, sometimes just let the train go and…
A. Yeah.
Q. …wait for…
A. You don’t know what’s going on then you realize that the train had been there.
Q. Yeah.
A. See I used to live in Queens, so I took the subway every day from, uh, ’92 to ’96…
Q. Well. Yeah.
A. So, you know, I took the subway a lot back then…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …but since I’ve been living in Manhattan, um, I don’t have to take the subway that often.
Q. And what about negotiating, you know, all the different… Subway entrances are different. Sometimes the doors are locked and not.
A. Well, I don’t tend to you… I mean, I haven’t had much occasion to use the stations lately.
Q. Yeah.
A. I mean, when you go there, you just find out that it’s not and then you have to, you know, listen when you get off the subway. You listen to where… I mean, first of all, try to decide which way to go when you get off.
Q. Yeah.
A. I try to listen for where the turnstiles or for where the people are.
Q. Yeah.
A. Then you head in that direction first and then usually that one's open. Now, at 47th Street and Broadway, a lot of times I want to use the 47th Street exit from the R train, even now, and that can be closed. So, you just head there like everybody else is heading there and then they start walking back saying, it’s closed, and you know it’s closed and go the other way.
Q. [laugh] Yup. That’s true. Um, have you ever been disoriented?
A. Uh, yeah, I probably have been.
Q. What are some strategies gaining your orientation back?
A. Um, I don't know when it happened… It happened recently. I was somewhere… Well, I mean, you basically have to stop… I had trouble with a crossing recently where I suddenly realized I was diagonaling…at Park Avenue and 40th Street.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And the traffic was not where it was supposed to be and I realized I had made a mistake. so you have to careful not to panic and move in the wrong direction, till you assess what's going on, you know.
Q. Yes.
A. Then I realized I had over… You know, somehow I was way over. That happened to me once… I mean, that happens… So, then, it just, um, sort of slaps me around a little bit internally saying… Now, wait a sec when you do this, you’ve got to you know, … You see, I can… To me, it’s just second nature. So a lot of times, I can walk around and I’m thinking of other things and, you know, I keep forgetting that I don’t see that well, so you can lose track of all this.
Q. Gotcha.
A. And, um, you know, this will remind me… Or I'll be walking down the street, I’ll be going too fast and suddenly I hit one of those sidewalk, um, stairways…
Q. Ooh.
A. …in front of a building.
Q. Yeah.
A. That happened to me about three weeks on 39th Street. I’ve been on that street for over a year, going to work, and I never was so far left along this building line to realize that there was a stairway there with no railing and I almost fell down.
Q. Oh. Your cane…
A. You've always got, cause I gotta remember to slow down.
Q. Your cane found it.
A. Well, but the cane found it at the wrong angle…
Q. Oh
A. …so that…’cause it had no railing. So, I almost fell… I fell I sort of went sideways…
Q. Wow.
A. But, I didn’t go down the steps.
Q. Good.
A. I caught myself.
Q. Yeah. Good.
A. That was kind of a, you know, reality check.
Q. Well, what, what does that mean? What…
A. Well, it reminds me I can’t move as fast as I’ve been moving.
Q. Slow down.
A. Yep. Gotta slow down. Not just then, but all the time.
Q. Yeah.
A. ‘Cause I can move pretty fast.
Q. So, at slower speeds, you’re less likely to hit that…
A. Well, when you hit, you’re not going to hit that fast or if you hit something, you’re not going to be, you know, getting some kind of momentum in the wrong direction.
Q. What about a longer cane?
A. Mine is 52 inches, as it is.
Q. What is it?
A. 52…
Q. And how tall are you?
A. Five ten.
Q. Hm. So, yeah.
A. Um…
Q. I mean, where does it come up on you?
A. …the big problem is this… The big issue with traveling with a cane, for me, is that… I find that you can’t really use the proper cane technique, at least in the city. Many people would debate with me, but… So, what happens is, you know, the arcing technique…
Q. The tapping.
A. The tapping from left to right. The arc, you know…
Q. Uh huh.
A. The rhythm method whatever they call it.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I find you really can’t do that.
Q. Why is that?
A. Because I find that there’s too many people around…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …and, therefore, the more of the arc that you have, the more the chances are that you’re going to hit somebody or trip them. You trip them as it is, especially at corners. That’s the worst spot. ‘Cause you’re coming down one side of the building and they’re coming down the other and that cane goes out there first and that’s where I knock out most people.
Q. Oh.
A. So…
Q. That happens.
A. I tend, then…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …to have a more of a restricted movement directly in front of me but that’s where I run into problems where probably the cane hasn’t gone far enough to the left or far enough to the right to pick up that there’s a planter there, or something, and then you trip. You know, you stumble because your foot hits this planter base.
Q. Right.
A. That the cane didn’t get to because you weren’t sweeping wide enough. So that’s… And if I’m going to fast and why I try to remember to slow down, of course, then you get to sort of… You know, you get more of a momentum so that when your foot hits it, you fall right over the top of it.
Q. Hm.
A. So, those things happen from time to time, and I just have to remember to slow down and, and, when I can, I try to expand a little bit, but, you know, as I said, it’s pretty crowded on the sidewalks.
Q. Gotcha. Whew. Well, I mean, you feel bad for those people who trip over the cane, but don’t they… Shouldn’t…
A. They’re supposed to be watching where they’re going.
Q. Well, I mean, that’s what I think. [laugh] And if you’re…
A. It is embarrassing, though, ‘cause, I mean, I’ve been in situations where you know that people have gone flying and they’re down on their knees.
Q. Oh.
A. And then, of course, my cane ends up being bent in half…
Q. Yeah.
A. …so, then, you know, then I’m in bad shape and then they end up blaming me for being in their way.
Q. Oh, so, if you shorten up, you’ve gotta slow down.
A. Huh?
Q. If you shorten up on how much cane you use, you’ve gotta slow down because you have less reaction time.
A. Yeah.
Q. Is that?
A. You don’t have any reaction time at all because you’re gonna hit it with your foot.
Q. Or none at all because you’re not even covering yourself.
A. Right. Yeah.
Q. Well, that’s, uh, yeah…
A. that's just—tough.
Q. Yeah, that’s tough.
A. But OK so, what are you gonna do?
Q. How do you feel…
A. I know people… I hear people going down the street going bang, bang, bang, bang and they’re just sweeping wide and heaven help anybody in their way.
Q. [laugh]
A. But I don’t do that.
Q. Yeah.
A. I don't know.
Q. Have you ever, uh… I mean, you almost went down that one time, but…
A. I actually did go down once.
Q. Yeah. How’d you get…
A. I’ve gone down a couple of times… Not downstairs, necessarily, but I've fallen on planters and stuff and you end up on the ground ‘cause they’ve got these little decorative thing on…
Q. Yeah.
A. …certain streets, you know, and, um,… But when I first gave up the dog, I was walking down the street, like, a day after I was using the cane again, on 27th Street, and there I did it… I went down, right down one of those stairways, three or four steps, with the cane. I was moving too fast and the next thing, the cane was over the stairs but I didn’t have time to respond. That, sort of, taught me a lesson from the very beginning about, um, you know…
Q. Yeah.
A. …slow down and pay attention.
Q. Well, I guess you got used to walking fast with the dog.
A. Well, I think part of it is, too, that, I… In my mind, it seems like I do see because with the cataract, you can…
Q. Sure.
A. …especially if it’s a cloudy day or at night, it’s almost like seeing because, you know, you can see the traffic lights and the car headlights and stuff…
Q. Cool.
A. So, you know, that’s how… I mean, I’ve walked out of the… I’ve walked out of here and been out on the street and realized I forgot to take the cane with me.
Q. Oh. What do you do? Do you continue?
A. I go home.
Q. You go get it.
A. Go back and get it.
Q. [laugh]
A. I’m not going to do that.
Q. Yeah.
A. There’s just too much crap on the street. I mean, even on my block, there’s, you know… On certain nights they put the garbage out and restrict the sidewalk space to begin with.
Q. Yeah. How do you feel about traveling alone to unfamiliar places?
A. Oh, I do it, but I don’t do it when we’re talking about going on vacation.
Q. Oh, you don’t go alone? Or you don’t go…
A. I wouldn’t consider going alone on vacation.
Q. Oh, no, that wouldn’t be any fun anyway.
A. No, ‘cause by the time you learn the place, and knew where you were, it wouldn’t work.
Q. Yeah.
A. But I travel alone for work.
Q. Yeah.
A. and go to conferences and stuff and hotels.
Q. So, how do you…
A. Usually people that I know… You know, other people from the university who are usually there and…
Q. Neat. Neat. So, um, how do you prepare to go to the conference or the business meeting?
A. Well, you don’t.
Q. For the travel…
A. Well, you can’t prepare. You’ve got to wait till you get there and see what’s going on.
Q. OK. So, how do you do that?
A. What, when you get there?
Q. Yeah.
A. Well, um, we used to meet at these places, like… Well, let’s see…two years ago we met at this place the Sagamore in Lake George…
Q. Oh, sure, I’ve been there.
A. Well, you know that. I mean, you’re not going to…you’re not going to learn the Sagamore.
Q. It’s very spread out.
A. Yeah, so I go… You know, you just move from session to session with one of your colleagues. I mean, that’s the only way you can do it.
Q. Yeah.
A. But, if I’m in another place, like a hotel, where it’s all self-contained, within a day or so, you’ll pick up where all the rooms are and, plus you run into people you know. So, I mean, it’s not an issue.
Q. Yeah. What about…
A. Places like Sagamore, there’s no way you can do that.
Q. What about the airports? Do you have any tips for…
A. Well, I seldom fly, although I’m flying this weekend to Rochester. I mostly take the train.
Q. Oh.
A. But flying is no problem.
Q. OK. So, any tips or strategies for taking the long-distance train?
A. Um, no.
Q. No.
A. I mean, I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for when you say tips or strategies because…
Q. Things that…
A. supposedly
Q. Yeah.
A. … everything I know is from what I was trained by the O&M people.
Q. Yeah.
A. [laugh]
Q. Well, what, what, what does that training bring you for the train? I mean, is there anything unique to that environment that you employ?
A. Well what are my personal little, personal little things?
Q. Yeah.
A. Well, I pay the $20 extra for business class on the train so that you’re in this car when the food car, the food counter is right behind you and the bathroom is 25 feet away and you’re not walking four trains to do anything.
Q. Yup.
A. That’s one thing I do. I figure, hell, if I’m traveling, I’m going to, you know… I’ll pay the 20 bucks extra for business class.
Q. Yes.
A. Now that they have it on Amtrak again and that cuts out the wandering three cars to the food car or, you know, dealing with the maneuvering and orienting yourself for your seat, you know. I mean, if I am stuck in another car, I try to, to at least be on an…close to an end where it’s easier to orient yourself to find your seat when you're done. Especially if you’re traveling alone.
Q. Well, that’s a very good point…locating the seat again, so…
A. And you try to follow along… Even when you have to hang onto the upper, uh, luggage rack areas, you’re walking through, you've got to be careful because you’ll be knocking off all those little tickets that the conductors like to put up there, you know.
Q. Oh, right.
A. But, uh, I usually try to, uh… Well, first of all, see I mean, a lot of stuff I would think would just be common sense. Like for example, here in New York City, to go out of New York on Amtrak, you’ve gotta use Penn Station. Well, to me, Penn Station is a disaster without even trying. So, I just get to the train station, and I go right to the Amtrak counter and I say, here I am and this is the train I’m taking at this hour and they put me on it. And when I get off, when the train comes in at Penn Station, I just have wait and I tell them, yup, I need assistance to get to the cab. There is no way I’m going to try to maneuver in that place. Now, years ago, and when I’m on Metro North going up into Westchester, at Grand Central, you don’t need help because it’s all laid out differently. It’s all laid out against the one wall. It’s all in consecutive order…
Q. Yep.
A. …and there’s no problem.
Q. Yep.
A. But Penn Station is something else. You can't.
Q. [laugh]
A. So, I don’t even attempt to--to do it.
Q. Well, how do you get to the Amtrak counter?
A. Well, when the taxi lets you off, you go down the escalator and it’s right at the foot of the escalator. They put a new one there.
Q. Nice.
A. A new information booth there.
Q. Nice. And then they will get somebody to…like, a porter…a redcap…
A. Well, Amtrak… See, Amtrak says, when you make your reservation…’cause the give you a discount for being disabled…
Q. Uh huh.
A. Fifteen percent.
Q. Cool.
A. They say to you, do you need assistance? Well, I’ll say to them, well, I’ll need assistance when I get in to Penn Station to get to a taxi. But, I say getting to the train, I’ll have to get it myself because for them to put it into the system, I don’t see what… I can’t imagine that some Amtrak employee is going to be standing in the lobby waiting to see if Doug Schading arrives, not knowing which door I’m going to come in.
Q. Right.
A. So, I never get involved in that, but they do offer.
Q. Oh.
A. But then I go right to customer service, which you need help to find ‘cause it’s against the back wall, and then you just show up and say, here I am and, you know, generally what happens, is they’ve gotta take you to the ticket machine so you can get your ticket out…’cause I don’t try to do that alone, find those ticket machines.
Q. Right. Absolutely.
A. So, I mean, my whole thing is, I guess, I don’t… I, you know… I am considered by myself and by others as very independent but there are situations where I don’t try to be independent because I think that trying to be independent can make you look helpless.
Q. Or, rather, maybe you don’t want to act alone. You’re independent…
A. The thing is, I just use…
Q. You’re…
A. …assistance in an intelligent way…
Q. Yeah.
A. …to help me get where I’m going as opposed to wandering around and think I can do it on my own and then you get lost and then people see the lost blind guy with the cane and that only, I think, supports their misconceptions…
[side B]
A. …sometimes, once in a while, I'll be traveling with the kids, but not often any more.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Uh, you definitely pre-board, to begin with.
Q. OK.
A. So, when you pre-board, I usually used to tell them… Some of the café cars actually have regular seats in them and I’m not talking business class, I’m talking the other side of business class. So, I would say to them, you know, can we check out the café car first, and if the café car had regular seats in it, then I would have sat there.
Q. Yeah.
A. No problem. Um…
Q. You don’t like the tables?
A. Oh, that’s a pain on a seven-hour trip…
Q. Oh, seven hours, yeah.
A. Yeah.
Q. Yeah, no.
A. So, that, um… A lot of them are tables these days.
Q. Yeah.
A. And I don’t have to worry about it ‘cause they’ve got business class. So, um, but if I couldn’t get into there, then I usually got into the car right behind it and sat one or two seats… I never really liked the first seat because the first seat has no tray table.
Q. Right.
A. But they always like to plop you there because I think those are the Amtrak designated handicap seats.
Q. Sure, probably.
A. And they think you like it because there’s a lot of room and, of course, if you’ve got a dog, then the dog can spread out and that’s fine but then you have no tray table if you want to do anything or eat, like eat.
Q. Right.
A. So, then, I’ll just go to the one behind it.
Q. Cool. So, it’s pretty much…you use the same…try to get the same location…
A. and that's going out. It works better in theory than coming home. ‘Cause generally if I take the train, I’m going to Rochester.
Q. Right.
A. And when you get out at Rochester, all bets are off. First of all, you’re not pre-boarding, the train is pulling in. It’s come from Toronto or Niagara Falls. It’s already stopped in Buffalo.
Q. Yup.
A. So, you’re on there to do the best you can, and they will help you find a seat. They’ll tell you to wait and they’ll help you find a seat but that’s when you might end up farther in than you want.
Q. Yup.
A. And there’s nothing you can do about it.
Q. Nope
A. except now there's business class.
Q. So, then, did you count the seats or put something on your seat or…
A. You have to pretty much count…
Q. Yeah.
A. …the seatbacks and you know try to…
Q. Neat.
A. …make out the best you can.
Q. I knew I could get it out of you. [laugh]
A. What?
Q. That was very good and a very insightful description.
A. What do you mean counting seats?
Q. No, I mean your whole, just…
A. Oh
Q. …sharing of your experience on the trains. That was very good because it…
A. Well that's the thing, you know what it is? I guess because I didn’t think there was anything uncommon about it. I just thought that’s what everybody has to do, you know.
Q. Sure. But it’s a unique point of view.
A. You must have heard this before so I--
Q. Um, well, I wonder have you used, or do you use maps of any kind?
A. No.
Q. OK.
A. I know they’re available in tactile maps, but I don’t, I don’t go with any of the tactile stuff. I’ve looked at it over the years and been a part of study groups to give feedback on tactile maps, but I’ve never been able to use a map. I don't find that it helps me in any way.
Q. Um, what kind of feedback did you give?
A. That I couldn’t…that I just didn’t find it helpful.
Q. Yeah. Because…
A. The problem with me is, if you ask me, I’m going to tell you.
Q. [laugh]
A. and
Q. Well, why wasn’t it helpful?
A. That’s what I’m saying, because many times that’s not what people want. I mean, Audrey and I, over the years, have been involved in a variety of studies where they ask you what do you think of this device and you look at it and you tell them and they look at you and they say, how can you be so ungrateful?
Q. [laugh]
A. After we’ve…
Q. Oh.
A. …put energy and time into this.
Q. They don’t really say that.
A. And I say, well, why did you ask?
Q. Oh.
A. ‘Cause if they thought it was this brilliant thing and they give it to you, and it has no practical use…
Q. [laugh]
A. …and you tell them, well, if the switch was here, it would be easier to use when you’re holding onto the dog and you’re holding onto… You know what I’m saying?
Q. Yeah.
A. But then you find out, that’s not what they wanted to know. They didn’t want to know your feedback, they wanted you to tell them, thank you, thank you, thank you…
Q. Yeah.
A. Anyway, so, um.
Q. Those maps don’t give enough detail, or they’re not…
A. I just don't
Q. You don’t gain anything from them.
A. There’s a lot of stuff I’m not interested in. I’m not big on a lot of things.
Q. Yeah.
A. I, I’m not big on groping walls looking for room numbers.
Q. [laugh]
A. The tactile things they have--
Q. Uh huh.
A. Uh…
Q. So, how do you locate a room number?
A. In a hotel, for example?
Q. Yeah.
A. Well, usually, I’m taken there for the first time by a hotel staff member.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I’ll either count the lights on the wall or I’ll look for some other tactile thing and then I’ll find out where the thing is.
Q. Cool.
A. But, I use that orientation first. Now, once I know where the room is supposed to be, then I go back the next time, you know, then, yeah, I will verify it by reading the tactile markings… But to walk down the wall and go from door to door looking for your room number, I’m not into that.
Q. No.
A. And, um…
Q. Cool.
A….I’m just now learning to be more…to realize more about that when the elevator doors open that the numbers are on the side of the wall.
Q. Yeah.
A. This is a good thing because I used to… You know, at work, I never really… No one pointed out to me that they were there…in this new building…so, you know, for a while, there, I would always have to check and once or twice I got off on the wrong floor because the lights, of course, always look the same when the doors open and the whole thing. And I thought, hey, stupid, look…the number’s right here on the wall.
Q. [laugh]
A. It’s a big tactile nine…that’s why it’s there. So, now, I use… I definitely use that and check it, but…
Q. How did you finally find it?
A. One day, I figured, you know what? It must be here and I’m just not… Why don’t I see if it’s there and if it wasn’t there, I was going to bitch about it, but it was there.
Q. Cool.
A. So, then I started, um… But, you know, even, I mean, it’s nice… It’s definitely nice to have elevator buttons with Braille on them, but, um, you know, that’s helpful.
Q. But.
A. Huh?
Q. But. You said they’re helpful, but…
A. Oh, well, I haven’t noticed this lately, but, you know, back with the ADA stuff and the 504, the first thing was to make the elevator panel accessible. So, they would have the Braille on but it would be… The panel would be lower for persons in wheelchairs, so you’re sitting. You’re, you're in the elevator, hunched over, trying to read the Braille.
Q. Yup.
A. And then by the time you found the Braille, you were somewhere you didn’t want to be.
Q. [laugh]
A. But, that, you know… You can’t [too picky though].
Q. Right. No.
A. It's there, but it just like one of those funny little things … like even now, I get on the elevator and, by the time I’ve found the Braille number for what floor I want to go, I’m already in the opposite direction. You know, but what are you going to do? You can’t…
Q. Yeah.
A. At least, it’s there and you know what button to hit.
Q. Yeah. Um, what kinds of things do you use as landmarks?
A. Landmarks. Um, gee, I don’t know if… Um, you mean… I’m not sure what you mean by landmarks because I’m not really… I mean, I don’t really pay attention to landmarks, I guess…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …at this point.
Q. So, how do you know where you are?
A. Um, I just have a knack for knowing.
Q. Um hm.
A. I mean, I can tell other people where they are when they’re lost. They’ll be standing on the corner, and I’ll say, well, you’re at 39th and Fifth. Where do you want to go? Well, we want to go… Well, this is what you’ve gotta do. You’ve gotta go two blocks over this way and… I mean, I’ve always had that ability.
Q. Yeah. Um, neat. So, like, for you…
A. that was, so the times I’ve been lost, the once or twice it’s happened recently, I’m trying to remember… Either I wasn’t paying attention or, you know, I mean, I, I… Yes, I have been lost, in fact I was telling Audrey about a month or two months ago, I was lost. But I can’t totally remember how it happened or why but I always ‘fess up to her when I’m lost because that was a source or aggravation that, um, she would get lost and I wouldn’t and I would try to help her and figure out why she was lost and when she told me how she got where she was, I knew that there was no conceivable way and, you know what, that she got where she went by the way she told me and then we would finally just say, don’t even tell me any more.
Q. [laugh]
A. But you could not get to the corner of Bidwell Parkway and Richmond Avenue in Buffalo by taking a left on Elmwood Avenue because, if you had, you would have been in Delaware Park, you know. [laugh]
Q. Right.
A. Well, that’s the way I went. Well, no, you didn’t. You know, and then, so, uh…
Q. [laugh]
A. then we finally we said, OK, OK, I’m not going to… Anyway, from years of that, um, I do confess to her when occasionally something happens, and I’m disoriented, and I find out that I’m lost. But I don’t remember the details now of what happened, but I was lost once recently. I wasn’t where I thought I should be.
Q. Right. And, and, what…
A. Like I said, I can’t remember…
Q. Well, what do you do when that happens, do you know?
A. Well, I mean, I wasn’t lost for very long. I probably asked somebody or…
Q. How do you locate someone to get assistance from?
A. Well, you’ve gotta stop them when they walk by.
Q. Yeah, you hear them walk by.
A. Most of the time when you’re lost, there’s no one around.
Q. Right [laugh]
A. When you’re all set, there are 40 people trying to latch onto you to help you…
Q. [laugh]
A. like you must look like--do you need help? No, I’m fine. One thing I did have to learn, though, is I had to learn to change my response to people when they ask me for help…if I needed help.
Q. OK.
A. ‘Cause I used to say, no, I don’t… You know, in a polite way. I mean, I don’t say, get lost or whatever. No, I’m all set. Thank you very much. Well, don’t you need help? Well, then I would learn that these were the people who were usually asking you, but they failed to say that, why they were offering you help was the big truck was parked in the middle of the street that you’re about to cross.
Q. Ah hah.
A. So, you’d say, no, you’re all set and, of course, then you’d walk into the truck. So, now, I say, I should be all set. You know… Do you need help crossing… No, I think I’m going to be all set, you know. Something like that.
Q. [laugh] Sort of leave…
A. Open-ended. [laugh]
Q. Leave it open-ended and…
A. Leave it open-ended. Don’t sound so confident because then they sit there, see I knew you know. But, um, I usually do that…leave it open-ended and say, I think I’m going to be all set, you know.
Q. Does that usually work if something’s in the way and they all say, well, did you know there’s a truck in front of you?
A. No, no. But, I mean, in recent times, people will say, you know, there’s a truck in the middle of the street, do you want. You know and, also, I’m a very cautious, uh... I mean, I’m very cautious when… I don’t cross the street if the traffic’s already moving. I mean, I stay with that theory that I was taught. They said, if the traffic is… If your parallel traffic is already moving, don’t cross. Wait for the next cycle.
Q. Yeah.
A. And I do. And that’s what throws people off the most.
Q. Yeah.
A. People will wonder, why are you standing there when the light’s in your favor. And then I just say to them, you know, thanks, but, um… Well first, I’ll say, are you crossing? And they’ll say no. Well, I’m really just waiting for the next signal. I say, I don’t like to cross when traffic is moving. If they’re standing around long enough, they get that nice polite explanation. Sometime, they’re already on the move.
Q. Yeah.
A. But, that’s when you will get asked the most, when the light’s green and you’re not moving.
Q. And, so, if you say, are you crossing, and they say, yes…
A. Then I’ll cross with them, figuring it’s safe to take whatever time I’ve got left.
Q. Do they… Do you take their arm, or…
A. Yeah. I, I always go sighted guide.
Q. So, you say then, can I take your arm?
A. If my hands are full… ‘Cause you know, they always want to grab you and I’ll say, look, do this, ‘cause you’ve got to be politically correct in case NBC is photographing you.
Q. [laugh]
A. ’Cause lots of people still don’t know about that anyway.
Q. No.
A. I always go, I do sighted guide.
Q. So, do you tell them… You said… We…
A. I tell them to do it the way _________
Q. …do it this way.
A. Yeah.
Q. Neat.
A. Especially the people who want to hold your hand. I mean, that, um… Sometimes they think they start that way, but they seem just as relieved or relaxed when you take their arm instead. Some people will insist on holding your hand well you know that's alright.
Q. Well, what do you want sighted people to do when they want to help?
A. Pardon.
Q. What do you want them to do?
A. As far as what?
Q. When they want to help.
A. Well, are you saying, like, crossing?
Q. Crossing, yeah.
A. I like to do sighted guide.
Q. Yeah.
A. And I don’t want them to cross against the light thinking that traffic will stop for the cane.
Q. Oh. Have people tried…
A. People have tried that.
Q. You know whether the light is, you know, red.
A. I know that I don’t have the parallel traffic. Of course, they can see that there’s no cars coming or that traffic is far away…
Q. Right. [laugh]
A. so tend what New Yorkers tend to do.
Q. Yep.
A. The big joke here with my kids is that, uh, only the tourists stop because it says don’t walk.
Q. Right.
A. And that’s how you tell the tourists from the New Yorkers…who’s actually standing on that corner when the light…
Q. Yep.
A. That was the other thing I noticed about down here, though, too, that was a real problem that we had to latch onto quick and, and smarten up to. I’d say, and this is not… I mean, when I grew up, the whole thing you were told as a kid in elementary school was, green means go, red means stop.
Q. Uh huh.
A. You cross the street on the green, right?
Q. Right.
A. Fifteen years ago when I came down here, I realized there’s this whole population down in New York that’ll say, it’s red, you can cross now.
Q. [laugh[
A. And what they mean is, it’s red for the cars…
Q. Oh.
A. …that would be coming in front of you. They’re not talking about…they’re not saying it’s green for the parallel traffic…you can cross. They’re saying it’s red, you can cross because that other traffic won’t hit you…they’ve been stopped.
Q. Right.
A. This isn’t just one or two people that talk this way. So, I finally had to say, wait, you know, I don’t go just ‘cause they… I mean, I… They say, well, why don’t you go, I say, well, because it’s…
Q. [laugh]
A. …What color is… What is the light?
Q. [laugh]
A. You know…
Q. It’s red [laugh]
A. OK, well, say that. OK, you can cross, it’s red.
Q. I’ve heard that.
A. Have you heard that?
Q. And, uh…. Yeah, because out with my students…
A. I don’t know where it comes from. Why these people are into that.
Q. But I’m glad you said that because, um… Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. What’s going on here? Why would people say, it’s red, you can cross?
A. Because they’re looking at the red light…
Q. Yeah.
A. …they’re looking at the light that’s for the horizontal traffic, not the light for the parallel traffic.
Q. Right.
A. That’s, that’s the only explanation…
Q. Yeah.
A. …they’re looking at that red light.
Q. It’s safe, now, it’s red. Right.
A. Yeah.
Q. Weird.
A. I don’t, you know… You’ve got to be careful there…
Q. Yeah.
A. Um, uh…
Q. What’s one thing that happens frequently when you’re traveling that you like the least?
A. That I like the least?
Q. Yeah.
A. Well, in what… ______ What do you mean?
Q. Does anything come to mind?
A. Are you talking about people or are you talking about obstacles? Are you talking about… I mean, to me, the most aggravating… The thing that’s a common aggravation is…are those construction barriers over the sidewalk.
Q. OK.
A. You’ve got to walk between… Suddenly you realize you’ve got to walk between two poles…
Q. Um hm. Those are difficult.
A. And if you go… If you miss it, you’re suddenly between a pole and a building and you think you’ve got space and there might be a little way but then you can’t go any further because the corner of the building has come out and you have to go back around.
Q. Right.
A. So, that can be a problem.
Q. What do you do about it?
A. Go back around.
Q. [laugh]
A. There’s no other choice.
Q. Right.
A. I mean, I can sometimes sense that they’re coming because I can see the dark ahead, but there’s no way I can see to make sure I’m lined up with the poles.
Q. Yeah.
A. The two poles… On the street side, suddenly there’s no… You know, you’re on the curb now because the poles… That’s a problem.
Q. Yeah.
A. At night it’s not too bad because they’re lit, most of them are lit…they have ceiling lights in them. That could help you actually to see where to go, but, uh, that I would say is the, you know, common thing you’ve got to… That and the electronic boxes on the corners. I’ve banged into more than one of them.
Q. Yes.
A. I’ve gotten banged up pretty… So, now what I do is, uh, I always wear a hat with the… I always wear a baseball cap.
Q. Oh. With a brim.
A. With a brim.
Q. Yeah.
A. Let the brim bounce off first.
Q. That works.
A. Well, everybody wears them anyway.
Q. Yeah.
A. I have a variety of them, depending on what wardrobe I’m wearing.
Q. Cool.
A. But, you know, I never go any… I don’t really travel independently, uh, without my cap on.
Q. And that has saved…
A. I’ve gotten banged too many times.
Q. And that saves you now from getting really banged in the head.
A. Well, the other day, I was coming down 38th Street and I don’t know how I got so far right that I hit a sign that I didn’t normally hit and it did sort of bang me and, granted, it didn’t break the skin, ‘cause I was wearing the cap, but I still got bruised.
Q. Oh.
A. ‘Cause, you know, the cap wasn’t thick enough. It didn’t catch the brim. It got above the brim. I don’t know where it came from and, uh… See, that the thing that’s always interesting. You take a certain street and you’re on it all the time. I’ve been on that street now for five years and this was the first…and all of a sudden, you’re just too far to the left or something new is on… Somebody’s put up a new restaurant sign or… There it is, now. A new obstacle that you didn’t count on.
Q. Right.
A. Well…
Q. Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?
A. Um, well, State University has an organization of Personnel officers…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …I’m on the executive committee of that.
Q. Neat.
A. But my other social things… I’ve been on a couple of board of directors in the past but not any at the moment.
Q. Yeah. Uh, would you get… What do you attribute to your present level of mobility?
A. What do I attribute…
Q. Attribute to it, yeah.
A. What do you mean by that?
Q. What do you see as the reason why you travel the way you do?
A. Um, well, one is that, you know, I had training. I know people who travel around, they get a cane, but they’ve never had O&M.
Q. Oh.
A. And, uh, I had all that. And, there are places I want to go and I’m not going to stay in. I guess that’s part of it. It’s got to be that you want to go.
Q. Yes.
A. And that you’re, um… I mean, that, to me, when I was in rehab and there were the people in O&M. I mean, there were the people that just…they didn’t want… They had no intention of ever going anywhere unless someone took them.
Q. Yeah.
A. And, that was their feeling and they had family members who were going to be devoted to them now that this happened and no cross was too great to bear. They just were not into mobility.
Q. Yeah.
A. And, of course, many times, a few of the people weren’t into the whole rehab thing to begin with. I mean, they really didn’t want to because they knew someone would take care of them and they wouldn’t have to…
Q. Yeah.
A. …__________ independently.
Q. Yeah. Would you get more instruction…more mobility?
A. I’m not sure what’s available that I would need.
Q. Yeah.
A. I mean, not to sound funny about it. I’m just saying no one presented me yet with something… Hey, did you know this was out now and we can show you how to do this. If you commit five weeks, or something. I mean, I’m not aware of…
Q. If there was a new skill or something to learn, but you really don’t need anything for your present needs.
A. Right.
Q. You don’t have any current needs.
A. No.
Q. What?
A. No.
Q. No. OK.
A. And when I was in New Paltz yeah we were doing more country stuff, like, we did get… You know, I did ask for O&M help…
Q. Uh huh.
A. When I first moved to New York, I got O&M orientation help. So, I mean, I don’t mind getting orientation help, when I’m thrown into an entirely new environment…
Q. Yeah.
A. Of course, now, the thing, now they go with whether you’re eligible or not, but back then, um… ‘Cause when I first took the job in New York, I know I had an O&M assistant, even though I’d been to New York City a couple of times when I could see, they still had O&M instruction, you know, coming into New York and working and going to the office…
Q. What do you want the O&M instructor to do, um, when… It seems like you’ve done it, like, three times. What do you like? What do you don’t like? When you’re going through that orienting process with an instructor to learn the routes?
A. Well, um, I think that, uh… Well, I don’t know. I mean, I’ve never had a bad experience with an instructor…
Q. Uh huh.
A. Um…
Q. What’d they do good?
A. Huh?
Q. What’d they do good?
A. Well, what they did that was good was, I mean, they treated me like an equal, to begin with.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And, uh, that we were mutually problem solving and, um, you know… In New Paltz, when we went there, basically we had some O&M instruction with getting into Kingston, to the malls, you know… What were the best routes? Or whether, can you do it this way? Or do you have to take a taxi all the time? from, from the bus station to Kingston. I mean, you know that type of stuff.
Q. Yeah.
A. And then you just sort of walk around the Mall, and give you a feel just knowing that you’re never really going to be able to totally do the mall on your own… although that particular mall isn't too bad, the Hudson Valley Mall. Once you're in there a few times, you know?
Q. You knew where the stores were.
A. You could have a rough idea when the big stores were.
Q. Uh huh.
A. So…
Q. So, that’s fun.
A. So, you had a rough idea of where to go and you’re not in too bad a shape. We used to up there shopping all the time. We’d take the Trailways bus into Kingston and take a taxi out to the mall and spend the day.
Q. Oh.
A. Go to the movies, do our shopping, eat dinner, and then get a cab back to the bus back into New Paltz, and that was it.
Q. Oh, that sounds great. I like that. So, what… Mutual problem solving. Describe what that means.
A. Well, I guess it’s, like, you know, asking for my input, like, well, what do you think of this method? What do you think of this location or, you know, where else do you want to go?
Q. Yeah.
A. You know.
Q. And then once you just said, I want to go to the mall, then what?
A. You know, so well if I said, well, OK, let’s say, for example, they might say, what about this entrance? I’d say, well, but, you know, if we use that entrance, it’s going to take us farther away from where we really want to go. But, yeah, if you take the entrance you want, you’re going to have to deal with X, Y, and Z, and then I say, well, let’s see how it would work. And they’d say, OK, fine, and then you would go up and you would try it and you would see it actually will work after all. The thing wasn’t as bad as initially perceived.
Q. Yeah.
A. You know what I’m saying? That kind of working it out together.
Q. Uh huh. Cool.
A. I forget her name, but I don’t think she’s up in that area any more.
Q. And, so, um, what is her purpose?
A. Well, her purpose is to help us orient to the new community and whether…how to get, you know… Check us out on going up Main Street, New Paltz to the main plaza where the supermarket was, or working out the route to get to the college when I worked at the time from where we lived in the village. You know, walking…
Q. Right. So, what… So, helping you find the best route? Or finding the most…
A. Checking them out in general. I mean, I was using dogs back then, for example, but, um… I mean, I guess it was that, when they said to me, do you want someone to come up and just do it with you, I didn’t say, no, thinking, well, no, I know how to get around. I said, sure, send somebody up and let's see what happens.
Q. Yeah.
A. Why not?
Q. I’m just curious.
A. No, I’m just saying… That’s…
Q. Yeah.
A. There’s no real specific thing, like, it’s, like… I mean, New Paltz is so small…there’s only way you can get to the college, really…
Q. Right.
A. …and, so… But, it was more or less just walking with somebody and they’d walk with you and point out obstacles and… ‘Cause see, we didn’t have any family in that area. Everybody was up in Rochester and Buffalo.
Q. Sure.
A. And we hadn’t met that many people yet. And, so, why not have someone come in that knows the area and says, OK, this is the supermarket, this is this, this is that?
Q. Right. Because, I mean, if you have family or friends, you could do the same thing.
A. Yeah.
Q. But this is a different way of getting that same information.
A. Right.
Q. Uh, and I wonder, you know, um…
A. And then we got to a point where Audrey wanted some O&M and they said… The Commission said, no, they’re not paying for you…your case is closed. [laugh] So, then, you go, oh, OK, then, be that way. Then you’re on your own.
Q. [laugh] And there’s no rhyme or reason for it half the time.
A. Well, no, the rhyme or reason is that they called the case… You know, they say the case is closed.
Q. Well, how was one closed and one not?
A. Well, because in my case, I had gotten… I was employed.
Q. Yeah. Cool.
A. And the goal is to get you employed and once you are employed, then everything stops.
Q. Gotcha.
A. But, the guy in Rochester that I had, of course, [I must have done it] through him… I trying to remember how it all happened, but, I’m just saying, we did have someone in New Paltz and I think… I, I believe somebody worked with me in New York City, but maybe not.
Q. So, is it helpful to have them, say well, right over here is a big thing and over there is a store for that and…
A. Yeah.
Q. Yes. Get as much of that color and, um, talk as along there.
A. Yeah.
Q. Neat.
A. Sort of walk around with you and see whether the, you know…
Q. What bus line to take.
A. Yeah, you would hope that.
Q. [laugh]
A. I mean, some people I mean, the person that helped in New Paltz I mean she was walking around, and she knew New Paltz, but she wasn’t from New Paltz.
Q. Right.
A. So, that was just, like, a friendly pair of eyes walking with you to help you, you know, find things, and point out ways to do things and all that.
Q. I hear you.
A. As opposed to, you know, somebody who lives in the area and says, yeah, now, this is the store I recommend you shop in because they’re going to give you the best deals. You know, stuff like that. That’s one kind of help but this was more or less someone who could come into the area and get familiar with us, working with dogs, and knew what we could do and just show us how to go ahead and do it.
Q. Would you get more mobility instruction? We already did that one… What advice would you give to an O&M instructor?
A. Um, since I’ve never had a negative experience with an O&M instructor, I can’t, um…
Q. Well, tell…
A …think of anything that would have--
Q. Uh huh.
A. I’ve had problems with other people who just don’t listen to you and they know best and da da da…
Q. No, I don’t want to …
A. …they… You don’t… You’re not fitting the model they learned at school, so they don’t know how to react, you know. But I’ve never had that with the three or four O&M instructors I’ve worked with over the last 20-some years.
Q. Well, tell the future O&M instructors how to be like them. What did you like about them?
A. I think I previously had said that these were…that you were mutually problem solving a situation and looking over and, you know, were open to what your needs were and…
Q. Yeah.
A. …what your abilities were and…
Q. So, they had a good sense of…
A. An open sense… They had an open sense to not have any preconceived ideas about what you need to do or how you needed to do something. They waited until they met me, you know, and, saw, what my functioning level was and…
Q. Neat.
A. …then adapted to it.
Q. Neat.
A. I think that’s the important thing with anyone working with disabled or visually impaired people, in particular, is the fact that you just run into too many people that, they go to school and they think that now they know and they also get thrown if you don’t meet their model.
Q. Yeah.
A. They have an idea of how you’re supposed to behave and if you don’t, they don’t know what to do and then they start… You know, it gets very awkward.
Q. Those are other professionals that you worked with that have done that.
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Well, that’s hard.
A. basically it happens with social workers.
Q. Well…
A. Including one that works for… Well, I shouldn’t say… Anyway…
Q. Yeah. No, I mean, I’ve heard that.
A. They seem to be very, you know… I’ve never really run into a social worker yet that I have, you know, much, uh…
Q. It’s true [laugh] it's true I've not only…
A. They're, they’re all so needy… They’ve gotta have, like… I say, please, heal thyself first.
Q. It’s true.
A. that's what bothers me, you know, but…
Q. [laugh] Wow. Well, listen, Doug you have been fabulous and so generous with your time, too.
A. Is that it?
Q. That’s the whole… It’s a little over an hour that we were on the phone.
A. But you didn’t even ask about shopping. How do you shop in Bloomingdale’s?
Q. Well, how do you shop in Bloomingdale’s?
A. Actually, Macy’s isn’t bad because Macy’s had pretty wide aisles and is laid out pretty good. Bloomingdale’s is a problem store because… Have you ever been in there?
Q. Yes.
A. So you know what the big problem is.
Q. It’s crazy.
A. as you enter on Lexington and you think you can just walk straight through the store and go out on Third Avenue…
Q. [laugh]
A. …but you can’t.
Q. No. No, you cannot.
A. I’ve stayed away from Bloomingdale’s for a long time. I only went in there when out of towners came and wanted to go up there, in the last eight months. Um, I’ve gone in there more and part of it is because I discovered that in that store… Now, I actually have never had… I’ve never really had a problem in any of the big stores. Um, but at Bloomingdale’s, it seems like any sales associate is willing to take me anywhere in the store I want to go and then, once, I even had… The called the personal shopper for me. The personal shopper went around with me.
Q. Nice.
A. Which is a service they have for anybody.
Q. Yes.
A. And they don’t charge. So, but mostly what I’ll do is I’ll in on the Third Avenue side, ‘cause I live on 38th Street between Lex and Third, so then I’ll go down to Third Avenue, take the bus up to 60th, get off, cross over and go in and you’re right in the men’s department there. And I just can sort of move around in the aisles a little bit, you know. It’s a little bit tight once in a while but, then, eventually someone will ask me, you know, what am I looking for and I’ll just tell them what I’m looking for and, um… Most times when I go, I’m not really going to browse. You know, you know you’re going for something.
Q. Yup.
A. I mean, that’s the basic change in shopping. When I could see, I used to browse and look around and, oh, that’s nice, I’ll buy it. Now, you’ve pretty much gotta know, you know, what you want. I pretty much say, you’ve gotta shop at the stores where you know you’re going to get the right kind of help because, you know, I’ll say to them, well, what do you think of this? And you can trust the people in Macy’s and you can trust the people…well, for the most part in Macy’s, although they’re changing a little bit, some of their staff, but in Bloomingdale’s still. And they’ll say, well, it looks all right. And I’ll go, oh oh, oh oh. They say, what’s the matter. I say, you just hit on the word that I don’t like. What’s that? You say it’s just all right, then I’m not interested. [laugh]
Q. Right.
A. That means there’s something…they hesitate so that, you know, then, they’ll help you pick out stuff. Mostly, you’ve gotta know what you want. Or, um, the other thing is that they… If there is a sale book magazine that’s come out in Macy’s or, uh, or, uh, Bloomingdale’s, uh, and I’ve gone through it with a friend at work and the friend says, you know, these look like good shoes, or whatever, and I’m circling, and I take it with me to the store and I say, this is what I’m interested in and I show those…and I show that. And then you can get help quicker.
Q. Yes.
A. ‘Cause someone has looked at it first, told you they think it looks good, but you’d better check it out. But I do a lot of shopping at, um, you know, Eddie Bauer now I know the people and you'll walk in and they come up and say, hi, I haven’t seen you in a while, man. So…
Q. Yeah.
A. …they’re not going to mislead you on what you’re buying. I’ve…I’ve had one person at Eddie Bauer here near me say, no, you don’t want to buy any of the shirts that are on sale…
Q. [laugh]
A. …that’s great, you know. So, more or less, it’s like anybody else. You develop…you try to develop a customer rapport with a particular store where you know the people and then, um, generally, there’s people that… The last couple of times I’ve been there…in Bloomingdale’s, you know, actually someone has said to, um, you know, there colleague, want to show him how to get to Lexington and they’ll take you to that doorway. The other thing I do is, whenever I go to any of these stores, especially that’ve got the big sales…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …Bloomingdale’s will have a big sale and they’re open until ten…
Q. Right.
A. …I’ll go at 8:30 on an off night, which you believe will be an off night, because then you know…or you hope that the store is less crowded and they can be more attentive to you, plus you won’t get banged around as much, you know, and it’s easier to shop.
Q. Eight thirty in the morning or 8:30 at night?
A. Eight thirty at night.
Q. Yeah.
A. Although I did get thrown off on a sale recently there at Bloomingdale’s. I went there on Saturday at 8:30 and the store was a madhouse…
Q. Oh, yeah.
A. But, I mean, I just said, where do these people come from? Why are they all here? And the sales guy said, “I don’t know why. They’ve been here all day. I guess it was a good sale.”
Q. [laugh]
A. So, that’s pretty much…
Q. I’ve been in Bloomingdale’s when there’s that many people. It is amazing to see that and to be apart of it.
A. Yeah.
Q. And, I’m not… I did not stay long. And there was a friend of mine… She’s a New Yorker, born and raised and, so, she was in there with the best of them, finding whatever it was…sheets, I guess…and I was, like, I can’t do this [laugh] I'm from the South. We don’t shop like that…
A. oh I don't get in to too much of that, um, other than the men’s department. Now, they have screwed things up a little bit, though, and they’ve got the men’s department goes a floor below… So, I just sort of move around and, you know, looking for someone at a cash register and, you know, try to get some assistance. Um, generally, it has worked out so I started going up there more ‘cause, actually, I’ve been going there more than Macy’s lately just because Macy’s keeps moving its departments around and some of the people don’t seem to be, I don’t know… I just… It doesn’t seem… I don't know just as good lately at Macy’s you can that often get kind of help that you need.
Q. Oh.
A. But, um, but that’s something that always amazes people is to how you, well, first all, you know people are just amazed at how you can live in New York City when you can’t see to begin with and then how do you do your shopping? And, those are the questions people want to know. And, of course, the fact that I go to the gym and the whole thing, um… That’s another whole experience.
Q. Well, it must be sort of strange, you know. You’re sort of like a, you know, a movie star in the way people are so interested and enthralled and inspired by you all everywhere you go. You know…
A. Yeah, but it can be… You know, it’s something that I’ve many times paid too much attention to, I think. I mean, I’m always, um… You try to do what you can to keep people… But, I mean, some of these people at the gym… Well, I just joined this new gym which is only five blocks from where I live and, uh, it’s pretty expensive, but you get a lot of assistance there.
Q. Yeah.
A. But there are people that are on staff there that you could still tell, even after five months, are somewhat in awe of the whole thing and get a little bit overprotective.
Q. Yeah.
A. Not that they get in the way but you can just tell… But that’s… When I went up there, I realized that, you know, when you go into an environment like that, or any new situation, you know, you’ve really got to sort of… The responsibility is to, somehow, put people--I always feel and I’ve been debated this by others who think it’s bullshit, you know, but, I feel it’s. You do have a responsibility to try to present yourself in such a way that you can make, put the other people at ease. And I’m always prepared for some kind of resistance, or some kind of, you know, problem coming up…
Q. Is the first… Is the one-time tour, uh, by one of the employees enough for you to learn your way around that new environment, or does it take more than that?
A. Well, first of all, before I join anything like this, because I’ve been with a couple different gyms over the years, I look around… I go on a tour before I even join.
Q. Yeah.
A. I try to get a sense for how is it laid out.
Q. Yeah.
A. And what are my chances of maneuvering in there on my own. And then I move forward from that. Then also…
Q. Cool.
A. …you’re going for the tour you can get a sense of how these people…how do they react to you.
Q. Yeah.
A. Um, and, at this gym, you know, the locker room is laid out pretty well, although a minor problem for me was, but now I’m getting used to it, I’m sure it looks wonderful in an exclusive…
Q. [laugh]
A. …but it’s all beige.
Q. Oh.
A. With no contrast.
Q. Yes.
A. You know, and I need contrast.
Q. Yes.
A. I mean, the floor, the lockers…the whole thing…
Q. [laugh]
A. …is just one big beige blur.
Q. Yeah.
A. Now, after a few months, I’m picking up the fine, you know, little details things that are-- But, for the most part, the locker room was very manageable, wasn’t big and hard to get around in and, and that. Um, then upstairs where the weights were, that’s a little more complicated. What I tend to do is…at most of the gyms is…that I tend to try to work the most with free weights, which cuts down on your need to move through the facility.
Q. Oh.
A. Because if you get involved with the machines, you’ve got to go from machine, to machine, to machine, to machine.
Q. Yeah.
A. But with the weights, you can pretty much… At this gym, there’s a rack and there all in sequence if they’re done properly and you get a bench and you have… You don't have to, you're very limited movement.
Q. Nice.
A. But they’re pretty attentive to me now here and, uh, ‘cause I go a lot and I ended up… One thing I did do was, in this case, with these people, and also because I had been really bad and had not worked out for a year. You know, I had a membership at the Y. I didn’t go, uh, for the last year. So, I was not in my best of shape and so I figured it’s not going to hurt. I’m going to pay for a trainer. So, I hired a trainer. Which I initially was going to do only ten sessions and now I’m into my third group of ten because I figure, what the hell.
Q. So, it’s…
A. But I’m not going to do it anymore.
Q. Yeah.
A. But, um, I found that that also relieves it, too, because then they could, you know… And now they’re used to the fact that I have the trainer and I sort of eased them into the fact that I had the trainer two nights a week and then I would come on alternate nights just to use the bike and they got used to seeing me there without it and, now, of course, I come in and I do the weights without the trainer and they think nothing of it.
Q. Yeah.
A. But they are attentive to the fact. But see, by going to a place like these where there’s more…where you’re paying more…they also have staff on the floor who’s purpose it is to help everyone.
Q. Yes.
A. Well, by them helping me with something, that’s part of what they’re there for and they would help you if you were next to me.
Q. Yeah.
A. So, it’s a whole different type of atmosphere.
Q. That’s very good.
A. But, um, so they’re pretty much, uh… That’s pretty much… And I have to say, I’ve told friends this, too, cause other people think, oh, I don’t know. I say, I’ve been a member of two big clubs here in New York, now…the Equinox, where I am now, and I did a brief stint at the New York Sports Club in my old office. I said I’ve never had a bad reaction from any of these big clubs, coming in visually impaired, with them being hesitant or over-cautious or telling you, you can’t join because they’re worried, you’ll get hurt. You know, it’s just been a very positive experience. And, of course, at the Y, I never had a real problem at the Y.
Q. Yeah.
A. But, um…
G. Good.
A. You know, so, that’s worked out pretty well. A lot of people wouldn’t perceive you know…
Q. Well, when you had your dog, did the dog come with?
A. Oh, my God, yeah. The dog would lay there and go around, and people would talk to the dog.
Q. Yeah.
A. It was funny… At the Y, four years after I didn’t have the dog anymore, one guy said, gee, you didn’t bring the dog today.
Q. [laugh]
A. Herb, I haven’t had the dog for four years.
Q. [laugh]
A. Didn’t you notice that?
Q. [laugh]
A. Oh, oh, yeah, that’s right, you know.
Q. [laugh]
A. Um, there are people that, you know… I mean, I’ve had those experiences, like, you hear about all the time where people know the dog and they don’t know you. You know, I forget who you are, but the dog’s name is [sonny]. You know, I had that all the time.
Q. Oh.
A. You can’t get bent out of shape by it but it’s funny how the people do see that and get involved I that.
Q. Yeah.
A. But, I think the hardest thing is… Not hardest thing, but… When you have a cane, I think that, you know, the common problem would have to be that people’s perspective…perception is, you’ve got a cane, you’re blind. And we deal in absolutes, which means you’re absolutely, totally blind.
Q. Right.
A. And I’m not. I mean, I can pick out some contrast at times. So, I’m always cautious and considerate enough to point out to people in an environment where I’m going to be that I see a little bit. Because I don’t feel that it does me any good to have someone be in awe or think you have those special powers that people joke about, or you know, your this is that much better… And especially if you’re out on the street and, you know, you’re meeting people and need assistance or they're offering assistance, um, I think it’s important to, to point out what you can and can’t see to some degree. I mean, you don’t give a big lecture on your eye condition, but, on the other hand, I don’t want them to think that, you know, how…
Q. You don’t want…
A. …do I do that.
Q. Yeah.
A. You know, because in this particular case, I could see that that barrel is in my way and the cane hit it but I also was prepared for it… You know, something like that. I mean, that doesn’t really happen, but…
Q. Yeah.
A. People are always amazed, though, at how you cross the street and you just say, you’re looking for your parallel traffic and you just always hope there is parallel traffic. [laugh]
Q. Oh, yeah. [laugh]
A. But they don’t pick… You know, people aren’t attentive. They don’t realize, um, about that traffic and how useful that can be, listening to it move, you know, how you do it. I always like it when people do ask you questions, how do you do something, because I feel that that’s a good experience. You tell them how it’s done and they don’t walk away with some misconceived idea or, you know… But I just don’t think this whole people being in awe and think you’re the most fantastic…
Q. Right.
A. things in the world.
Q. It gets a little…
A. works for anybody, really, you know. Um, but, you know, there are people that think it’s so amazing that I go to work everyday and that’s, I think, the hardest part for me, um, having been perceived as being able to see before and being treated as someone who can see. Even though I wore glasses, that people thought if I had glasses, I was all set.
Q. Right.
A. The common problem with the low vision person, you know, you, you hear reports how, or statements made over the years with… I’ve kept up on it. They feel one of the hardest populations is the low vision population because people perceive that, with their glasses, they shouldn’t have a problem. So, if they ask for help or can’t read something, that’s when I got my most negative feedback, you know.
Q. Wow.
A. What’s the matter…you’re wearing glasses. Or, why are you holding that so close? Can’t they give you better glasses?
Q. Oh, gosh.
A. You know, that kind of stuff, you had to grow up with as a kid.
Q. Yeah.
A. But, um, you know, that, that was… And, of course, I know people who have low vision and have dogs and that, that always causes a problem, too. It causes all kinds of… I know totally blind people who think that’s terrible of the schools to give low vision people dogs and I know people that it throws them off to see a person walk down the street with a guide dog and there they’ve got glasses on and they’re reading signs themselves, you know. [laugh] I know somebody like that. I thought, this has got to throw some people off.
Q. Sure.
A. What’s going on here? Why do they have a dog? And then they try to get into a restaurant, and they say, well, this is a guide dog and, you know. They’re reading a newspaper in their hand as they’re going and…
Q. Right. Right. You know, uh, what’s the point?
[tape ended abruptly]
I’m not sure what happened there – I checked to see if there was a second tape and I couldn’t find one. I wish only that I had dug a little deeper into his early days- but this really exposes my bias back then. I was still fully unaware of what I would eventually learn from my interviews and extensive reading – that our field had been telling a story of early life of blindness that had no science to back it up. When looking for a photo of Doug on the internet I learned that he had passed away not too long ago. I am so glad to have had this opportunity to learn about his story 22 years ago.
