Growing up Blind Conversations with Dr. G
Host Dr. Grace Ambrose-Zaken, President and CEO Safe Toddles non-profit and inventor of the Pediatric Belt Cane for blind toddlers discusses why her mission is to make walking safer for toddlers with a mobility visual impairment or blindness. Listen to: Interviews with families, professionals, adults who grew up with a mobility visual impairment or blindness, and more. For more information about this blog contact: 845-244-6600, info@safetoddles.org
Growing up Blind Conversations with Dr. G
Kathleen born 1949 with low vision and acquired a long cane at age 48
Today’s interview is with Kathleen, born in 1949 with retinopathy of prematurity. Her story life with this vision is one of living in the margins as far as getting services. She had no specialized services as a child, conceivably she was considered to have too much vision – she was not “legally blind”. She got her first cane at age 48 – for protection. She tells of many accidents that resulted from her inability to visually avoid obstacles in her path. Kathleen’s story is a story of low vision and some of the barriers to effective services that existed when she was growing up.
Her early experiences were of being shunned by her first-grade teacher who did not want her in her classroom, being left out of PE and games, and being restricted from playing by her family for fear she would break her glasses.
As an adult she began using a long cane and shared insights into how she was taught from the perspective of a professional in the field of blindness. But what she didn’t learn is perhaps more telling, her O&M specialist, because of her experience of being a driver, and skilled public transit user, did not work on orientation skills for when she was disoriented. Yet, she tells of multiple times when her vision caused her to be wholly disoriented.
Before her cane she had a lot of accidents that caused real pain and injury. Kathleen’s story is the story of low vision, she sought out her long cane for protection, but then stopped going on vacation tours because she didn’t want to be exposed as a cane user.
Long canes are visible and Kathleen’s story sheds insight into her journey of becoming aware of the need for a long cane, taking action to start using her long cane and still must battle the feelings and reality of being a white cane user in public.
A. But I feel like I’m just beginning to hit my stride. I’m just beginning to feel totally comfortable with this thing, you know. I can walk down the street, people don’t bother me, people are used to me.
A. People aren’t grabbing me anymore, you know. And I’ve had people come up to me and say, “you can see. You shouldn’t be using a cane”.
Q. Oh, really.
A. Yeah. People…some people have been outrageous. And, um, you know, I’ve, I’ve sort of…
Q. What do you say to them?
A. Well, um, at first, I said,
"Well, I’m…I guess I can see and I’m grateful for what I can see." Um, or I say, "well you don’t have to be totally blind to carry a cane". You know…
Q. Golly, I don’t know if I’d be so nice. [laugh]
A. Well, I haven’t been.
Q. "F.U." [laugh] and "get out of my way".
A. Well, there are times that I’ve waffled…
Q. You’d done what?
A. Hauled off and waffled people…you know, really gone after their ankles with it. Because people will see the cane and you know they see it and walk right into you. Like, they’re sort of testing you somehow. And I’ve just gone after their ankles. A couple…many…I can’t say a couple times, I’ve done it many times. So, yeah… Sometimes, I can be nice and sometimes I can’t. And then, um, I’ve decided that on Fridays…Friday afternoons everybody loses their min
Visit our website: Email: info@Safetoddles.org TikTok Facebook YouTube
Thanks for listening! Please, leave us a review, ask questions and share with your friends!!
Please donate to help Safe Toddles Inc. achieve our mission to provide blind toddlers with a solution for walking independently with safety.
If you know anyone who needs a belt cane - go to ObtainCane
Kathleen Graebeldinger, 11/8/99
[side A]
Q. Um, please state name.
A. OK. Kathleen.
Q. OK. What is your date of birth?
A. 1949.
Q. OK. Where were you born?
A. Philadelphia, PA.
Q. And where do you live now?
A. Philadelphia, PA.
Q. And what do you do for a living?
A. I’m a social worker…blindness visual services at the state agency for the blind and visually impaired.
Q. Um, where did you go to college?
A. Eastern Michigan University.
Q. And what is your highest degree?
A. Uh, bachelor’s degree.
Q. How long have you had a vision impairment?
A. Uh, I lost the vision in one eye at birth, so I guess you could say since birth.
Q. Uh huh. And what is the name of it?
A. Uh, I have retinopathy of prematurity. Uh, I lost the vision in my left eye at birth. I’m a high myope, um, now that I’m middle aged and old, um, I have a cataract growing.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And, um, I supposedly had a retinal detachment, uh, and that’s in the upper nasal quadrant, but it somehow healed itself.
Q. Wow.
A. I was lucky.
Q. Yeah.
A. So, my visual acuity is about 10 over 80.
Q. That’s not bad. Um, when did you realize, um, that your…that you saw differently from most of the population…from your peers? From your family?
A. Um, you know, I don’t…I guess when I started school. When I started school.
Q. Uh huh.
A. When I went to kindergarten.
Q. Is there a particular event or story?
A. Um, well, yeah. Um, another thing that happened with the premature birth was that, um, that I didn’t walk until I was close to two years old.
Q. Oh.
A. And I have a short tendon in my right leg. Um, and, the Philadelphia public school system didn’t want me in school.
Q. Ah.
A. And I, uh, at that time I was diagnosed with cerebral palsy. And I went to nursery school at St. Christopher’s Hospital here in Philadelphia. Uh, and there was another little boy and myself who wanted…who wanted to go into kindergarten. And the only reason that we got into public school was because United Cerebral Palsy association threatened to sue…
Q. Wow.
A. …the Board of Education. But there big thing was, well, she might fall down.
Q. Right.
A. And they had to produce all sorts of things that I could do…routine kindergarten and first grade work.
Q. Hm. So, you were very aware of…
A. Yeah.
Q. …this going on…having to prove your value to go to regular school.
A. Really, really…well, I had, it , um… The principal of the school made it very clear that she didn’t want me.
Q. Oh.
A. And…I found this out years later, but the kindergarten teacher told people to stay away from me because I might fall down.
Q. Hm.
A. And in first grade, I remember my first-grade teacher, uh… Well, we had 1A and 1B, so we had different teachers…uh, we changed grades mid-semester. I can remember my first-grade teacher pushing me down the hall to get rid of me ‘cause she didn’t want me.
Q. Pushing you to another class?
A. To another class, yeah.
Q. So, you were… How did that make you feel, this whole thing?
A. I was crying.
Q. Yeah.
A. I was extremely upset.
Q. Um hm. Has it affected your outlook in many ways, do you think? Has it made you a stronger person in any way? Or…in any way?
A. I would think, I would think.
Q. Yeah. Um, did this vision affect your mobility or orientation in any way?
A. Um, not really, ‘cause I never had the vision in the one eye.
Q. Um hm.
A. So, if I never had it, I never had to deal with it. So, um, spatially, I’m sure that it did, but I never really paid any attention to it.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Um…
Q. Why do you say spatially?
A. Uh, like, having to turn my head, um. Being aware of my surroundings. Sometimes, sometimes I would…and sometimes I still do…I would bump into something, you know, just ‘cause I didn’t know it was there.
Q. Right.
A. You know, but I basically, you know, throughout my life, compensated…sort of realized that, um, I had…that I needed more space on one side than the other space. And I don’t know when this consciously happened. I just knew that this just had to be.
Q. Right. Uh, what sort of messages or attitudes did your family send you about moving about, doing things independent of others?
A. Um, the best thing that happened to me… My mother volunteered for services to go to a camp and she, um, wasn’t going to take any pay, so we all went to camp. And I was about four or five years old. Well, the great…the beauty of the whole thing was everybody was too busy, and they left me alone.
Q. Ah.
A. And I was running around like a normal kid.
Q. [laugh]
A. So…because it was sort of, like, don’t do that, you’ll fall down. Um, you’re going to hurt yourself. Um, constantly.
Q. Do you think that was more because of your leg or because of your vision?
A. I think it was both.
Q. Yeah. Just to compensate…
A. And quite honestly, I think that…and to this day, I think that my, my, my mother is in denial about my vision problem.
Q. Ah. What makes you think that?
A. Um, well, I recently finished…I recently had training and…you met Felicia…Felicia was my teacher.
Q. Ah.
A. And not too long ago, uh, well, while I was in training with Felicia, my mother was screaming at me…you don’t need a cane, you don’t need Braille, you can see.
Q. Oh.
A. I think she’s in kind of denial.
Q. Yeah. A little bit. So, so, do you…So the idea that you went to this camp and…at four or five…this is sort of like the first time, almost, that you can remember being able to just…
A. Be a kid?
Q. …be a kid?
A. Um, now…
Q. Without constant supervision and…
A. Yeah. That was really the first time. Um, I was in nursery school. Um, I was the star because other kids had cerebral palsy and I don’t have cerebral palsy.
Q. Right.
A. But, I was much more… These kids were severe. So, I could pour milk into glasses using a pitcher and could put out utensils and I could do things that I guess a normal two, three, four…cause I started going to nursery school when I was two…
Q. Um hm.
A. …that a two-year-old could do. You know, um… So, but there was always supervision and I think the first time that I did not have supervision was when they…when we went to camp.
Q. Did you feel like you wanted to be independent before that, or even more after that?
A. I don’t think I knew I could be independent.
Q. Uh huh.
A. You know? Uh, and after… And after I got a taste of it, you better believe it.
Q. [laugh]
A. I wanted to keep on going and I had people holding me back all the time.
Q. With messages of these things.
A. With messages and… I can remember my father… running out the front doors screaming, Kathleen, stop playing. You’re going to break your glasses.
Q. Mmm.
A. OK. Um…
Q. What were you doing?
A. Playing steal the bacon.
Q. Which is…
A. I was running around.
Q. Is it a game? It’s a game that you run…
A. It’s a game… You know, it’s a ball game and you steal the ball. You know, and just running around, doing things, and, uh, the… His message was always, don’t do that, you’re going to break your glasses.
Q. Right.
A. And he spent a lot of money on my glasses. You know, I have to say…
Q. [laugh] That was partly true. But [laugh] It’s kind of… but not to play when you're a kid…
A. Right. And, and, in school, um, I was the first kid pulled out of any activity because I wasn’t as fast, I could see it, whatever. You know, and the teachers would pull me out. And that went all the way up to eighth grade.
Q. Pull you out of gym or…
A. Pull me out of gym, pull me out of activities, anything that would take quickness of movement, of, uh, vision… They would just say, well, Kathleen, there’s not enough…we’re too many people, you go sit down.
Q. Gee, that must have been…
A. It was horrible.
Q. Yeah.
A. It was really horrible.
Q. Did you have a teacher of the visually impaired or…
A. No.
Q. No.
A. In fact, um, it was funny. Both of my sisters were in remedial gym in high school.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I wasn’t.
Q. Interesting.
A. They never put me in remedial gym.
Q. Why…
A. I think they were just tired of looking at Graebeldingers.
Q. [laugh]
A. You know, ‘cause… And I remember my eighth-grade teacher…uh, ninth-grade teacher…gym teacher, coming in, walking, saying, oh, my god, not another Graelbeldinger. And turned around and walked out.
Q. Ay, ay, ay.
A. So, you know, it’s just… And my oldest sister was very athletic and became a gym teacher for while before she became a social worker.
Q. Are your…are your other siblings…Are they visually impaired?
A. No.
Q. So, it’s just the fact that there were three of you.
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you, um, ride bikes and…
A. Yes.
Q. …rollerskate and all that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you have memories…
A. Yeah, I was sort of a failure at roller skating, but then, um…’cause I stayed inside the basement…we lived in a row house.
Q. Hm.
A. So sort of stayed inside the basement. And I rode bikes and I, um, I rode all over the place. In fact, when I was out in Michigan, um, I was riding a bike back and forth to school.
Q. Neat.
A. And I did drive for a while.
Q. So, have you ever had orientation and mobility?
A. Yes. I finished in May.
Q. I see. Um, was that your first experience with it?
A. Yeah. I started in June of last year.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And, uh, the reason… Well, I… I became a client of the agency that I work for because I pitched a fit. Um, I, I was having trouble reading, getting things done and I also realized that I was having some problems with mobility.
Q. Mm hm. Like what?
A. Like tripping over cracks, um, missing curbs, uh, sliding down steps.
Q. Hm.
A. Those sorts of things.
Q. Were you traveling without any cane?
A. Without any cane.
Q. Um hm.
A. And, um, I had spoken to one of the people that we contract with…a mobility person that we contract with…and I was planning to start to pay for it on my own and he was going… I was going to just go and do mobility privately.
Q. Um hm.
A. Starting, like, the fall of last year. But then, um, uh, I became a client and, uh, one of the things that, uh, that I said that I wanted, um, and one of the things that the Director of the Agency said you should have…OK, I want you to have mobility and I want you to have Braille. Well, I didn’t object to the mobility at all. I did kind of object to the Braille. But, then, I thought, OK, he wants me to learn Braille, I’ll learn Braille. I don’t care. So, I’m learning Braille.
Q. Yeah. Is it helpful to you, do you think?
A. Yeah, actually it is. Um…
Q. Cool.
A. And it’s, it’s… I figured, I feel it’s like a foreign language so it’s like learning Spanish or whatever.
Q. So, so, then, your training is fresh in your mind.
A. Yeah.
Q. What, uh, what’s the method that’s been used to teach you? What sort of skills did you start…have you started…did you start with and how has that gone, or…
A. Well, um, my instructor, um… I started out doing mobility during the transportation strike. And they were out for about three weeks.
Q. Wow.
A. So, um, my instructor gave me a short cane…for me, a 46-inch cane…and I was going back and forth to work, which, I guess is about a mile, a mile-and-a-half every day. Um, so he taught me a couple techniques and I thought…and he gave me the cane…and, well, first off, you know, he took me out for a walk and watched me move and the whole bit. And then he, um…my second lesson, he gave me a cane, a 46-inch cane, and I’m using a 50 inch…and he took me up to, um, the boulevard and…Adams Avenue, which is like, um, a four-lane…like a four-lane highway.
Q. Yeah.
A. And that was my second lesson, because he said, I know you come…I know you go out and I know you have to do it. So, it was sort of like baptism by fire for me.
Q. Right.
A. And then, our fiscal year begins in July. So, there was a lag of time before he got back to me. Um, he would take me out on… I live in Center City. I live very close to Independence Hall. He would take me out on Market Street and have me, using different techniques…the two-point touch, whatever, you know. Um, the one I use the most is constant contact.
Q. Uh huh.
A. But he would just take me out and, and have… It--we looked like a parade. it was a riot because the people who work out on Market Street would be out on their breaks, their evening breaks…
Q. Um hm.
A. …and it looked like a parade walking down the street, because he was screaming like a drill sergeant…
"left, right, left, right, left, right " and "no! you’re out of step, you’re out of step". And, um…
Q. Hm. How’d that make you feel?
A. Well, I kind of got used to it.
Q. Yeah.
A. You know, and, and…after a while, it became funny because he’s this enormous man and I’m not too terribly big, and it was just…it was funny. It was just funny.
Q. Uh huh.
A. So, in fact, he took me into a building ‘cause he wanted to, um, see how much sound I was giving off with the cane, ‘cause he didn’t want…he didn’t want to hear any sound. You know, with two-point touch.
Q. Hm.
A. And, um, he stood me up against a wall once and was teaching me the wrist movement and, um, two guards…security guards…came walking toward us…’cause he's enormous, you know. And I…of course, no, no, it’s perfectly all right, we’re…this is a lesson. You know, it’s OK. But he took me all over the city…
Q. So, they thought he was molesting you?
A. Yeah.
Q. [laugh]
A. Yeah, but he took me all over to some of the most dangerous intersections in the city.
Q. Wow.
A. ‘Cause he knew that I had to do them. That I would… You know, I do field work…
Q. Right.
A. …and I… He said, “I’m going to take you out and you’re going to do it”. And I did it. So, I really did learn by fire. And, um, he spent a lot of time away and off because he has asthma and, um, a lot of what I… And because I’m doing the fieldwork all the time, it was just constant practice. In fact, I was thinking about you last week and I said, you know, I feel like… Well, I’ve finished instructed in May.
Q. Um hm.
A. But I feel like I’m just beginning to hit my stride. I’m just beginning to feel totally comfortable with this thing, you know. I can walk down the street, people don’t bother me, people are used to me.
Q. Um hm.
A. People aren’t grabbing me anymore, you know. And I’ve had people come up to me and say, “you can see. You shouldn’t be using a cane”.
Q. Oh, really.
A. Yeah. People…some people have been outrageous. And, um, you know, I’ve, I’ve sort of…
Q. What do you say to them?
A. Well, um, at first, I said,
"Well, I’m…I guess I can see and I’m grateful for what I can see." Um, or I say, "well you don’t have to be totally blind to carry a cane". You know…
Q. Golly, I don’t know if I’d be so nice. [laugh]
A. Well, I haven’t been.
Q. "F.U." [laugh] and "get out of my way".
A. Well, there are times that I’ve waffled…
Q. You’d done what?
A. Hauled off and waffled people…you know, really gone after their ankles with it.
Q. Oh, wow.
A. Because people will see the cane and you know they see it.
Q. Um hm.
A. And walk right into you.
Q. Hm.
A. Like, they’re sort of testing you somehow.
Q. Hm.
A. And I’ve just gone after their ankles. A couple…many…I can’t say a couple times, I’ve done it many times. So, yeah… Sometimes, I can be nice and sometimes I can’t. And then, um, I’ve decided that on Fridays…Friday afternoons everybody loses their mind.
Q. [laugh]
A. They’re gone, you know, and you really have to be careful. It’s nuts out there.
Q. So, what you did with him was…he took you on a walk and realized that mostly what you do…wanted to work on is ways to keep yourself --
A. Safe.
Q. Safe…from contacting things…cane contact…and then ways to cross the street.
A. Right.
Q. And, was that really a helpful exercise for you?
A. Very much so. Now, the person…
Q. What were you doing before the lessons and what sorts of things…what sorts of tips are staying with you and you’re using now that you weren’t using before?
A. Well, uh, I’m looking around in all directions, you know, and lots of times, I just plain stop and watch the traffic flow for a couple minutes before I cross. Um, one thing neat that I think has really be helpful to me is, when I’m crossing the street, turn and look to see if somebody’s turning, but, again, after I’m, like, halfway out in the street, turn around and look again. Because, um, the car could have come around, the car could hit me, the car could go in front of me and I might not be aware of it. So, you known, I’m more of a -- I'm looking around more and I’m listening…I’m listening more. Um, and that was a big help, too, just because there are some motors you just can’t hear.
Q. Right.
A. You know, and, and… Just sort of slowing down…slowing down and taking my time and when I come to those four-lane highways or four-lane boulevards or whatever you want to call them…
Q. Um hm.
A. …just taking one section at a time. And if it takes me four lights, five lights to get across, that’s OK. It’s going to have to be OK. And I play a game with myself. Um, I pretend that he’s going to jump out from behind a tree or a telephone pole so I’m always trying to be on good behavior.
Q. [laugh]
A. You know. And that works well.
Q. [laugh] So, before training, did you avoid crossing those, or would you have done it differently, or…?
A. Yeah, I just sort of took a deep breath and ran.
Q. Uh huh. And did you ever have any close calls doing that?
A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well this happened a long time ago and may not be relevant to this… I was knocked down by a trash truck.
Q. Oh, gosh.
A. Um, but, yeah, there have been times when it’s been close and there were a couple times with the cane that it has, you know, once in a while, it has been close. You know, you think somebody’s looking at you, you think somebody sees you, and they don’t.
Q. Um hm.
A. So, um, I just hang back, let them turn, let them do whatever they’re going to do, and then, when I think it’s better… Or, you know, just make --wave the cane around and do a little two-point touch… You know that’s another thing he told me, which I use a lot. If it’s a very wide street, I don’t do constant contact. I do two-point touch, so I, I It’s the movement. People will see and the movement, perhaps…
Q. Um hm.
A. …a little bit more. And lots of times, people don’t see the cane at all.
Q. Right.
A. I know that. So…
Q. What…but it also the opposite is true…that you get maybe a little more, um--
A. Yeah.
Q. A little more leeway because you have a cane in your hand? Have you noticed ability to sort of interact and get information from people because of…?
A. Yes. Most people, I find, are very kind, um, they’ll move aside, um… For the most part, I would say most people will recognize the cane.
Q. Um hm.
A. And, um, some people won’t. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got flashing neon on it, it just won’t make any difference. And that’s the way it is.
Q. So, are you done now? I mean, did you do bus travel or any other kind of…?
A. Yeah, he took me on the buses. He took me on the subway. He took me on the el…the el and subway are the same thing here. Um, yeah. We went all over.
Q. Now, did you get any more tips from him on those areas that you weren’t using before?
A. Um, not really, ‘cause I’m dating a bus driver.
Q. Ah huh. [laugh]
A. And, he’s, he’s given me his lecture, you know.
"Now, always sit up front and always let them know that you can’t see."
Q. Now, this is your boyfriend.
A. This is my boyfriend.
Q. Right.
A. So, um, so he’s given me the public transportation lecture.
Q. Ah.
A. Oh, but I basically handle public transportation the same way that I was.
Q. Which is what?
A. Well, I just would get on and try to find a seat or, um, sort of try to shrink myself to stay out of the way of other people. Um, one thing I did ask Aaron was,
"OK, what do you do with the cane when you’re on the bus? Do you leave it open? Or do you fold?" And he said,
"well, what are you comfortable with?" I said,
"I don’t know. I don’t know yet." So, for the most part, what I do now…I just…when I’m on the bus and have a seat, or when I’m on the subway and have a seat, um, I’ll just fold it up and put it on my lap.
Q. I know a lot of people who fold it, like, halfway.
A. Um hm. Yeah, I’ve seen that, too.
Q. Um hm.
A. But, I figure, I’m probably going to impale somebody.
Q. [laugh]
A. You know, it’s like… It’s better for me, it’s smaller, you know, and just keep it out of the way.
Q. So, for getting the name of the bus, if there’s more than one at the same bus stop, is it… How do you…?
A. Well, sometimes I can use my telescope.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I’m a big low vision aid user. I’ve got a 4X telescope.
Q. Cool.
A. Um, sometimes, depending upon the light, you know, sometimes I can see and sometimes I can’t. If not, I’ll ask. Um, in Philadelphia, we have, um, bus identification kits. And basically all it is, is a plastic holder with pockets in it. And it will have bus numbers or letters, um, and you can slip whatever your, whatever number you want in that case. Um, the first time I used it, I was waiting for 27 bus and the bus driver stopped, yelled out the stop, I got on, I was so excited and happy, I forgot to pay my fare.
Q. Yeah. Did he remind you?
A. Yes.
Q. [laugh]
A. Oh, yes. He reminded me.
Q. [laugh] So, that’s cool. So, these are things that you put in your slip and they can read it off of the…
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you write it yourself, or…?
A. No, it comes printed.
Q. Neat.
A. Yeah, but lots of times, people will…the bus drivers will see the cane and just stop and yell out 17, 33, whatever.
Q. Oh, that’s helpful.
A. And If, If I don’t, you know, want that bus, I just say, no thanks or step back or whatever.
Q. Have you ever been…missed a stop with a bus?
A. Oh, definitely.
Q. So, what do you do then?
A. Well, um, usually, I’ll get off and walk back.
Q. Um hm.
A. Um, if it’s, it’s a long way, um, they’re supposed to give you a transfer to get you…you know, just go across the street…go to the next stop and give you a transfer to come back. But I have a transpass, so…and that’s so you pay a monthly fee…
Q. Yeah.
A. …so I just say, you know, don’t worry about it and just go across the street and get the bus back in the same direction. Or, if it’s like four or five blocks, I’ll walk it.
Q. Yeah. So, you use a --…a folding cane now. What tips do you have on the bottom?
A. I have, um…I’m using a Ambutech cane with their high-mileage tip.
Q. Is that, it's like a big marshmallow…or?
A. No, it’s, it's a smaller marshmallow. I’ve gone through tips like mad. Hold on for a second.
Q. Sure.
A. It’s, um, it doesn’t fit over the cane. It, it, it, it it's…it’s inserted in the cane…
Q. Um hm.
A. …with a knot and, uh, I guess it’s about maybe an inch, inch-and-a-half…
Q. So, that’s like a smaller marshmallow, but not…
A. Yeah, it’s a smaller marshmallow, and instead of fitting over, it’s, um, it’s knotted inside.
Q. Uh, is it a roller?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever tried any sort of roller tips?
A. Yeah, um, and I went through them really quickly.
Q. What do you mean?
A. They, I uh they were cheaper tips and I, I just literally broke them down. I was going through tips like mad. And that’s why I got a very durable tip and this one. I’ve had this one on for about three or four months now. It’s showing wear, but not as bad as I said…
Q. If they were more durable, would you prefer the roller over the one you have now, or…?
A. Um…
Q. …in terms of…
A. …I don’t know. Probably. Probably, because of the cracks, whatever.
Q. So, overall, you prefer…you seem to work better with a roller…
A. Yeah, I would think…
Q. …for the constant contact…
A. Yeah.
Q. …with the cracks. Um, and have you tried any other mobility tools besides canes?
A. Uh, no, not really…just the cane and the low vision aids.
Q. Low vision aids?
A. Yeah.
Q. How many canes do you own?
A. Well, I have the first one, the 46-incher, and I was told that it’s sort of like a rite of passage to name it, so I named it Raisin Cake…called Ray for short. And, um…
Q. That’s cute.
A. I bought a 50-incher, because, you know, the state will only buy you one cane…or, no, the state bought be a 50-incher.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And then I bought an extra because I was advised by a friend, look, Kathy, people are going to walk on them. You’re going to get them caught in elevators. You know, get used to it. Just buy an extra one. And it’s going to get real beat up and you might want to have one for dress. So, I have a nice new cane sitting up on the shelf if I ever need to dress up to go somewhere.
Q. Oh, that’s a nice idea.
A. This one is really beat up. [laugh]
Q. [laugh] So, was it a mutual decision, or did you decide that the 46-incher was too short?
A. Um, I decided.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Because, what… I developed, um, epicondylitis…I’m with the doctors over this one.
Q. What the heck is that?
A. It’s sort of like a tendonitis.
Q. Oh.
A. And, um, it was…I was going to the doctors anyway and, you know, they say, are you having any other problems? Yeah, this is what’s happening with this. And he took a look at it and my doctor is the king of the handouts. He’ll hand you things on blood pressure or cholesterol, diet. He has…people open their closets and give you pills, he gives you handouts.
Q. [laugh]
A. He’s a character. So, he reaches into his drawer and brings out this thing on epicondylitis.
Q. Hm.
A. And, really, what it is, is tendonitis. And, um, you just do wrist exercises. So he started me out with a one-pound weight and I’m supposed to go up to a four-pound, which I never have, you know, but just doing the wrist exercises to strengthen the wrist. But it’s a form of tendonitis.
Q. And, how does the longer cane make that…?
A. Uh, I’m not straining…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …I’m not leaning forward.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And it, it…I’m always going to have…it’s always going to be there, and I know that, so. I’m very, very left-handed, OK. And I said to Aaron, Aaron, you have to teach me right-handed. And, um, he did.
Q. Hm.
A. So, whenever I get tired, or my arm starts to act up, I just switch arms.
Q. Cool. Um, how do you get to and from work?
A. Um, on… Well, I walk down to the bus, take the bus. Um, then I get on the Broad Street subway and then I take the subway.
Q. That’s quite a trek. How long does that take you?
A. Um, about 40 minutes.
Q. That’s a good, that’s a good, [laugh] that’s a good commute [laugh].
A. Yeah, well, it’s not far. It really isn’t far, but…
Q. Um hm.
A. …and it would be a lot faster if I took the subway instead of taking the bus, but the bus is so crowded because people are coming into town… Excuse me, the el is so crowded. People coming into town, coming to work, with a knapsack and a cane and everything else, I would prefer to just say, OK, I’ll get on the bus, and it takes longer on the bus to get up to City Hall and then do the two stops up to, uh, Board Street Garden.
Q. Do you have any, um, tips, um, for the novice traveler on accessing subways?
A. Only slow down. Slow down and think. Really.
Q. And, what, why? What’s that about?
A. Well, because if you’re, if you’re taking your time, you’re going to think about the steps, you know. You’re going to realize that you’ve got some steep steps…you can’t go flying down the steps.
Q. Um hm.
A. Um, um, that… the new subways, for example, are…have…are a different height from the platform into the car itself. And just be aware of… Using canes, you know, and casting more a little bit to see where…to find out where you’re going. Really.
Q. What was it like taking the subway before you got your cane and did mobility?
A. Um, it wasn’t, it wasn't all that difficult. The difficult part was getting up and down the el steps…
Q. Um hm.
A. …and the subway steps. That was the worst part because I couldn’t see them. And I was hanging on to the railing for dear life and I was walking like an 80-year-old woman.
Q. Hm.
A. I really was. My mother is 80 years old, and it was…we were keeping the same pace…
Q. Wow.
A. …when I would be walking with her. And now I’m walking like a person again. You know, a 50-year-old…well, maybe like a 60-year-old [laugh] but, you know, I’m moving again, which, um, I was moving very, very slowly. in fact, my, my supervisor saw me in the field once, um, and she said to me, um you know, Kathy, I thought we would have to start doing something about mobility because you were just about moving. She said, you were looking at the ground so hard and trying to see things…you know, you were just about moving.
Q. So, did it…was it an effort not to look at the ground anymore and sort of trust the cane?
A. Yeah, because I’ve always looked at the ground…
Q. Uh huh..
A. …for all my life and it was kind of exciting because, I’m looking around, saying, oh, my god, I’ve never seen these things before.
Q. [laugh] That’s neat.
A. You know, and, and, and, and now I have…I’m using the cane and I’m looking up at windows and things I’ve never seen before. You know, they're--I don’t see them clearly but I, you know, I can still, you know, I wish I had done…I wish I had looked up a long time ago. It’s amazing.
Q. Did you use a blindfold at all?
A. No. He offered. He said, you know, how about…do you want me to blindfold you? I said, no. I said, I want to use as much as I’ve got as long as I’ve got. And he said, I agree with you. So he didn’t do it. I thought about it…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …and if, um, if I asked him to… ‘Cause you know, um, I still work with him. Uh, I give him a clients, uh, and we are sort of halfway friends. Um, if I ask him to take me out with a blindfold, he would do it. I’m in a little bit a different position where I still have contact with these people and I can turn around and say, hey, what about…
Q. Right.
A. So, I, you know… I have sort of have ongoing…where a lot of people don’t. You know, they don’t have this opportunity that I have.
Q. Right. Uh, and, but, um… That makes a difference. Um, looking around, turning your head more…that’s sort of… You were sort of doing some of that and then he worked on doing even more of that…
A. Um hm.
Q. …in the mobility… Do you, did you do any other visual strategies with, uh, that…from the mobility lessons? Did you work on any other…?
A. I’m trying to think. Um…
Q. You were already, sort of, using your telescope, I imagine.
A. I’ve been using my telescope for maybe five, six years.
Q. Uh huh. So.
A. I don’t think we used the telescope at all, um, when we were having lessons. I, I, I can’t… I need it in the field. I can’t go out in the field without it, you know. But what Aaron told me, really, was, you know, you’re doling well…you just need fine-tuning.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Because I, I, I… There was a time when I was out in the field three days a week, straight, you know, so I do an awful lot of fieldwork.
Q. Yeah.
A. And I cover half the city and I cover half of Delaware County, which is an adjoining county, and I have a few Zip codes in Montgomery County, which is another county that is adjoining. So, I’m really all over the place and have been, and I did have the whole county…the whole Delaware County…up until a few years ago.
Q. How do you travel your counties?
A. Well, there are buses. There are buses and then I just start walking. And my supervisor, um, realized that it wasn’t very safe for me to be walking along the highways, which I was doing for a while…
Q. Wow.
A. …and she’s tried her best to, um, keep me away…keep me out of areas that I can’t really manage. But, the week before last, she sent me up to, um, Conshohocken, which is about twelve miles outside the city if that. And I had never been there, and I had never been to this place in my life. And I got off the train, um, and there was no…there was no train station. There was just a concrete slab.
Q. Oh.
A. So, I had to walk…I walked to the client’s house…seven blocks…and I didn’t know this. You know, you sort of just go…seven blocks in and seven blocks out. Came back to the train station…I couldn’t find it. I spent 40 minutes walking back and forth across the tracks, in an industrial area, nobody’s there…
Q. Yuck.
A. …and when I do see people, it’s, I don’t know, I don’t drive, or I’ve never been here myself.
Q. Right.
A. I was getting more and more frustrated and more and more frightened. So, I just stood by the tracks, and I figured, OK, maybe they’ll see the cane, maybe they’ll stop. You know. Finally, I saw a man with a coffee cup walking and, and I said, where is this train stop. And he said, well, it’s down there about 200 yards [she chokes up]. I said, OK, great. Thank you. Because I kept on going down that way, but I kept on running into a building and there was another path there that I, that I didn’t see.
Q. Right.
A. So, I got there, and I got the train, but I came back to the office, and I thought… Normally, what I’ve been able to say to myself, OK, it’s over…you did it, you don’t have to worry about it. But I just, I started crying…on the train…and, um, I went back to the office, and I knew that if I saw my supervisor, I’d quit.
Q. Wow.
A. I would just quit. So, I shut myself up in the office for the rest of the day because I can shut my door. And the next day, I told her, I said,
"You know, I almost quit yesterday. " she said,
"I knew you were upset about something. You know, she said, but you’re not doing it again. You don’t do it again. If there’s any question in your mind you don’t do it". So…I have a good boss.
Q. Well, what are come alternatives to… I mean, it’s not the subway, the train… That was actually…
A. It was a regional rail.
Q. Regional rail. Um, and so… I mean what about a driver or a taxi or…
A. Well, it was too far to take a taxi.
Q. Even from the regional rail stop?
A. Well, I didn’t care about the walking.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I walk all the time. So, I don’t care about the walking, generally, the walking… But the fact that I couldn’t find the train…sheltered train stop, and all it was, was a slab anyway, really got me.
Q. Yeah. Um, what you, maybe, do differently, um, given that… Do you think there’s anything you could have done differently?
A. Um, I could have looked around a little bit more when I got off the train. And looked for some landmarks, which I didn’t do. Um, and then, when I started coming toward that slab, you know, that 200 yards, somebody finally did show up.
Q. Hm.
A. You know, there were people there. And normally there are people around. You know…
Q. Right.
A. …this is urban. And even out in the counties, there’s always people around…somebody to ask. And there was absolutely nobody. So…
Q. How frustrating.
A. It was very frustrating.
Q. I know how I am. I mean, when [laugh] I know when I’m not getting there and I’m backtracking and, you know, whatever, I can really lose it, so…[laugh] I can totally relate. Totally…
A. Cause it was horrible. Really, really horrible.
Q. And, you know, it’s right there [laugh] you know…
A. Yeah, and I couldn’t find it. But it’s like she said, don’t do it. If there’s any question in your mind, bring it to me and I’ll assign it to somebody else. And they don’t have to like it. But I’m a workhorse…
Q. Yeah.
A. …and, you know, it’s OK if it’s assigned to somebody else.
Q. Right. Right. Now, have you ever had any problems with taxis…taking taxis in terms of?
A. Taxi really isn’t in my vocabulary.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Because, I can tell you a horrible story about a taxi driver. It didn’t happen to me. Well, actually, I can tell you a couple of taxi stories. Not being able to see where you’re going at night and having taxi drivers take advantage of you.
Q. Right.
A. It happened to me once. I was coming in from, coming into the train station. I was supposed to be meeting friends at a restaurant and the restaurant was like seven blocks away from the train station. I couldn’t see where I was going and this guy was just driving me around and I said to him, OK, stop the car. Let me out. And he said, I can’t do that. I said, why not? He said, we’re in the middle of a project…housing project. So, um, I said, well, get me to the restaurant and get me there now. The cab ride cost me ten bucks. Um, and a friend of mine was coming up the street and he said, Kathy, I’ve seen you mad, but I have never seen you that mad. You were you know. So, and a friend of mine…
Q. So what
[side A ends, side B starts]
A. …bus station. I was staying at a hotel a block from the bus station. Um, the cab driver drove him around for a long time.
Q. Just circled and…
A. Yeah, he was totally blind, didn’t matter, __________ cab fare.
Q. So, did you tell the guy that it should only been $5?
A. Yes. But I was so angry and I was so late…
Q. Right.
A. …I said, get me away from this man. ‘Cause my whole thing is flight, get away from the person, get away from the thing, get away from the incident. So, it’s sort of like, get me out of here.
Q. Do you do anything differently now with cabs that…?
A. I rarely take cabs.
Q. Still…
A. Like I said, they’re not really in my vocabulary yet…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …but I, I do have many other…several other friends who are visually impaired, um, who, who use the same cab company all the time and they day, Kathy, if you need a cab, take Liberty Cab…they don’t mess around with you…they’re good. Um, I was using one cab company, um consistently, you know like to go to the airport, back and forth…that’s about the only time I take a cab. Um, and they were decent. But, I’m listening to other people, so the next time, when I take a cab, I would probably take the company that these people are recommending.
Q. And, and, from doing these interviews, other people have said, when you call for a cab, ask him to estimate how much it’s going to cost.
A. Um. Hm.
Q. If you know…if you’ve been on that route before, keep aware of what they’re doing…I don’t know…
A. Well, with here…from Center City to the airport, it’s a flat rate.
Q. Ah.
A. So, it’s no problem.
Q. Yeah.
A. I put money in my pocket and then the tip money in my pocket and that’s it. You know, I don’t worry about it. But, um, I can… If I should be taking a cab and it’s just really in Center City, um, I have a rough idea of what it might be like. But, like I said, cabs are not in my vocabulary yet. But they will be.
Q. So, airports. Um…
A. They’re fun.
Q. [laugh] Explain.
A. Well, the lights are bright.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And, you can’t really look at the [legend] because the light behind it is bright.
Q. Right.
A. So, again… In fact, I’ve never been in the airport with my cane. Uh, I have been in the airport without my cane. I have asked for assistance. Um, actually, I have been in the airport with the cane. Um, but without the cane I just ask for assistance and, excuse me, I’m visually impaired. Could you tell me where, you know…or just point me in the right direction.
Q. Um hm.
A. And usually, if somebody points me in the right direction, I could find it. But, um, in fact, the only time I’ve been on a plane with a cane, was the trip out to Kalamazoo.
Q. Ah.
A. I had it folded. And nobody saw it until the one, one stewardess, the one flight attendant on the way back… And she came to me and said something, um, like, are you OK? Do you need anything extra? Something like that. And, on the way out, Felicia and I both thanked her for noticing the cane, ‘cause she was the only person who did.
Q. Neat. So, you…you have taken…gone on trips by yourself in the airport?
A. I haven’t…Well, I meet people at the airport.
Q. Uh huh.
A. If I’m traveling with somebody, I’ll meet them, and, you know, we’ll go from there. But, I haven’t traveled by myself…I mean, on a trip, like a vacation trip, for years.
Q. Where do you usually set up to meet?
A. Usually in the seating area.
Q. Um hm. Is it a small airport?
A. No, it’s, it’s nothing like Atlanta.
Q. Uh huh.
A. But it’s, it’s a good size.
Q. Yeah. And, so, would you have typically gone sighted guide, or just walked?
A. I would have, I don’t use sighted guide very often. I just walk beside the person.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Uh, many times, when I’m with a person, I’ll just keep my cane folded and, and walk with the person. Um, especially in familiar areas. Like, if I’m with Felicia or with my mother or with a friend. You know, I know the area. Um, I’ll just keep it folded, um, and have it in my hand. Um, if I don’t know the area or I’m by myself, the cane is open.
Q. Um hm. So, you always take trips with people.
A. Yeah, normally.
Q. Have you ever been disoriented?
A. Oh, I think that train trip was rather disorienting.
Q. Yeah.
A. I guess I can say, yes, I have been disoriented.
Q. So that’s the one that really sticks out in your mind.
A. Yeah, and it was so recent. It was just like a week and a half ago, two weeks ago.
Q. And the strategy you used there was to look for--
A. People.
Q. People.
A. to look for help.
Q. Um, any other strategies that you use when you’re disoriented?
A. Um, well, just stopping and slowing down. Taking a couple breaths and saying, OK, I got myself into this, I can get myself out.
Q. Yeah. How do you feel about traveling alone to unfamiliar places?
A. Well, I do it, um, in the field all the time.
Q. Um hm.
A. You know, locally. Um, as far as traveling for like vacation or pleasure or something, I’ve had mixed feelings about that. Um, because I am a very inward person, I don’t like to draw attention to myself, which is kind of silly when you’re walking around with a cane and a telescope. But, um, I don’t like to have people making a fuss and I don’t care if my friends know… I don't care--I’m doing what I have to do here at home. You know, to make a living, do shopping, and get by. But I don’t want to cause un…make undue attention, like, oh, we… I take a lot of escorted trips, OK, like Maupin Tours, or that kind of thing.
Q. Oh.
A. Um, I don’t want people to say…to think, oh, well, she can’t see, so we have to take care of her. You know, I don’t want to be a burden or portray that I am a burden. OK. So, that’s, um, I would probably be better off not…just going traveling with somebody and say, OK, here I am. Like the trip to Kalamazoo. You know, like, there I was. The first I’d ever been to Kalamazoo. Uh, it was a…it was a very unique experience because I had never been there, um, and visually, it was totally different. The cane was not a problem, um, the mobility techniques that Aaron taught me kicked in. But just being in a different place, it was, it was a little unusual. You know, I can’t say it was frightening, but it was, it was a little bit uncomfortable for a while, if you can understand what I mean.
Q. Why, why was it…? What did you…?
A. Well, different lighting.
Q. Uh huh.
A. You know, lighting is different all the time, but…different, different traffic patterns. Different traffic lights. Um, you know, here in Philadelphia, we have traffic lights on the street corners. Out there, they had them in the middle of the street.
Q. Uh huh.
A. You know, up…and just really getting used to different, different…a different area. A different area of the country. For example, in Salt Lake City, this was long before I was using the cane, um, there… In the center city they have the audible lights where one…if you’re crossing one way, it chirps and if you’re crossing the other way, it hoots, or something like that. You know…
Q. Yep, yep. Audible pedestrian signals.
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you like those?
A. Um, well, if I can’t see the light. Sometimes, yes.
Q. [laugh]
A. ‘Cause, you know, sometimes the light hits and you can’t see the light.
Q. What’s different about being in totally, like, Kalamazoo and versus an unfamiliar place in Pittsburgh…I mean…
A. I think…
Q. Philadelphia…
A. I think it was, uh, OK, this is a different place…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …and I think, you know, that’s what it really was about.
Q. So, how did you prepare to…
A. To go?
Q. …for travel to unfamiliar places?
A. I didn’t.
Q. You didn’t?
A. I just went.
Q. [laugh] Just went.
A. [laugh] No, I just got, you know get to the airport, get on the plane, and go. You know just go.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Ask for help along the way if I need it.
Q. And, and so…What you’re saying is, by going with someone, you feel like you’d be less of a burden on the group when you get there?
A. No, if, if, um… OK, on an escorted trip, OK, like a Maupin tour…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …You’re on a bus with a group of other people. OK. Um, you're eating meals with these people, you’re going to social events with these people, uh, you’re going on tours with these people. Uh, with a cane, with the… and so, this has happened without the cane, with the telescope. Um, it becomes evident at some point that you can’t ss--……that you can't see very well because you’re playing with this telescope and people ask. You know, so, it became, Kathy watch that step. You know, Kathy, don’t trip on that. You know, and it’s sort of, like, became, like, I don’t want to be a burden to these people. You know, these people are all on vacation, I’m functioning just fine, you don’t have to take care of me.
Q. Right. So, does that make you not want to go to these things anymore, or do you try to…
A. Um, no, that wasn’t the reason that we stopped doing traveling. I’m sure I’m going to get back to it…like, Felicia and I have been talking about, you know, things we would like to do. Um, but when I first started using the cane, I thought, uh oh, this is the end. I’m never going to travel again. But, um, the more comfortable I become with it, its, its sort of, like, OK this is a possibility again. It might work again.
Q. You’re not going to travel again because you know it’s going to mean more attention, more people?
A. Well, I probably will travel again. It’s a matter of adjusting and getting used to it and accepting it myself, you know.
Q. But that’s basically what it was?
A. Yeah.
Q. Yeah.
A. Yeah, I just don’t want to…you know, everybody’s on vacation. You know, and let’s, let's chill out. You know.
Q. How do you establish your position in the environment?
A. Um, OK, you’re going to have to expand, expound on that…
Q. Everybody says that to me. [laugh] What are you talking about?
A. Well that's a bad question. [laugh] You have to change that question.
Q. [laugh] I know, it’s so lingo-istic. Um, well, I mean, how do you know where you are? What do you use?
A. Well, uh, visually?
Q. Uh huh.
A. I use my telescope.
Q. What do you look for?
A. I look for street signs.
Q. Um hm.
A. I look for landmarks when I’m not using my telescope.
Q. What kind of landmarks?
A. Something big.
Q. Like what?
A. Like a building or a sign or an awning or a store or something. Um, some… The painting on somebody’s house. Um, the architecture of the house.
Q. Um hm.
A. Like, I could go down…be on one street and say, oh, yeah, this is 65th Street because I know what that corner house looks like.
Q. Um hm.
A. So I travel… If I’m not using my telescope and I’m only using it for fine things anyway, I’m traveling by landmarks.
Q. So if you… What do you mean if you’re not using your telescope?
A. I use my telescope for street signs and addresses.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Basically. Um, and the rest of the time, I’m just saying, OK, this looks like 65th Street and that’s the house that I know to be on 65th Street.
Q. Um hm.
A. So, I’ll get off the bus or do, you know…
Q. Whatever is needed.
A. …whatever is needed.
Q. Have you used, or do you use maps?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. What type of maps? Regular…?
A. Regular maps. Um, and I use, um magnifiers to get on top of the maps. And if I can’t see it, um, I’ll ask my coworkers, uh, or somebody, or a friend… Or we call… I could call Septa here…Septa is the bus company.
Q. Um hm.
A. The transportation company. I call Septa and they will, um, help me get around. Say OK, if I tell them that I want to go to, uh, 33rd and Girard from 3rd and Market, they’ll say, OK take the 17 bus, get off at blah, walk three blocks west. So, I can use Septa Information.
Q. Neat. Where did you learn to use maps?
A. Trial and error. [laugh]
Q. [laugh]
A. No. You know, because of work. I’ve been working for the agency for about 20 years and, um, with fieldwork, I had to learn how to, to read a map. Um, they used to have street guides, which were really great, because you could just look up the street and it would tell you exactly where it was.
Q. Uh huh.
A. But they don’t make them anymore.
Q. Oh.
A. But, um, but I’ve…I am… I have been reading maps… I have to read maps to do my job.
Q. So, you taught yourself basically.
A. Yeah. Yeah.
Q. What one thing that happens frequently when you travel do you like the least?
A. People stopping, stopping. Shouting at me. Um, because there seems to be this attitude, if you’re visually impaired, you can’t hear. You’ve got to be deaf.
Q. Hm.
A. And if you’re blind and you got to be deaf and you got to be dumb.
Q. Right.
A. You know, and people screaming at you…you’re standing on the corner, you’re just minding your own business, you’re waiting for the light, and somebody starts screaming at you.
Q. Saying what?
A. That’s not a green light.
Q. Oh, gosh.
A. You know. Or it’s red, you can go. I like that one. That's sort of my favorite one.
Q. That’s a good one.
A. Um, one that I can remember, I was, um, I was on the wrong side of the street. I wanted the even-numbered side, or the block and I was on the odd side. And it was a different direction…I had never known…so I had never been there. So, I was on one side of the street, and I crossed over. And I was on the wrong side of the street then. So, I just turned around and came back and this woman started screaming at me,
"Where are you going, where are you going?" I said,
"I’m going back across the street."
"Well, you don’t know where you’re going. You can’t see where you’re going. Where are you going?" And she tried to grab me. And I just said,
"Excuse me, I can see and I know I’m on the wrong side of the street. Thank you very much” and kept on going.
Q. Hm.
A. So, that’s… When people start screaming at you, that’s…
Q. Yeah. I can see where that would drive you nuts. What do you want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?
A. Um, ask.
Q. Um hm.
A. Ask.
Q. Yeah. How do you handle being lost or disoriented.
A. Not well, these days. [laugh]
Q. [laugh]
A. You know [laugh] Um, well, when I go back…when I realize I’m lost…and I’ve spent a lot of time being lost…um, I might go back to where I know where I was, you know, last…
Q. Hm.
A. …and… In the county, I would…and I don’t know if I would do this anymore…but I would just keep on walking, ‘cause I knew I was going to hit a busy intersection within five, five minutes of walking, or ten minutes of walking. So, I could orient myself again. Uh, but I think now I would just go back to where I came from and, and start out again. And if I’m absolutely, totally discombooberated…
Q. [laugh]
A. …I would just call the office and say, I’m not doing it, I’m coming in.
Q. Yeah.
A. And then just start out again. OK. Call the client, get better directions. Um, and start over again. And that’s happened to me…I'll just get so out of the way, like, three miles out of the way, or something, and you can’t, you can't do it on public transportation and you can’t do it on foot. Just call them and say, I’m sorry, you know, let's to do it some other time.
Q. Right. Did you work on these strategies with your mobility instructor?
A. No.
Q. He never got you disoriented?
A. No, because I’d been traveling on public transportation. I, I stopped driving, um, I guess around 1979…
Q. Um hm.
A. …and it’s a field work job. So, I’m traveling on the buses for field work for a lot of years.
Q. Hm. Have you ever been injured when traveling?
A. Yeah, yeah.
Q. With…you said…
A. With the cane or before the cane? [laugh]
Q. [laugh] I guess, uh, either…both…
A. Not.--I have tripped, you know, like, tripped over something, um, with the cane. Um, but that wasn’t because…that wasn’t necessarily the cane’s fault. It was sort of, like, I just tripped. An example I can give you is, um, a couple of nights--a couple of weeks ago, I was exhausted. I was absolutely exhausted and I just…my knees started to buckle underneath me as I was walking up the sidewalk, you know, to go home. Um, but one of the reasons I got the cane was for protection. Um, my balance is not great…it’s OK, but, you know, it’s not great, and I have been told innumerable times by my eye doctor, be careful if you fall, you could cause a retinal detachment. And we don’t know what’s going to happen if your retina goes.
Q. Right.
A. So, that’s the reason that I got the cane in the first place….was, was, was for protection. So, my incidence of falling, since I have gotten the cane and am using the cane, is greatly reduced.
Q. Yeah.
A. Greatly reduced and I could tell you some real horror stories before the cane. But, um…
Q. Going downstairs, or…
A. Oh, I, I, I, I took a… I went over like a log in front of Independence Hall…
Q. Hm.
A. …and blood was bursting out of my nose…
Q. Gosh.
A. …it was just awful. Absolutely awful.
Q. How long ago…before…was that before you got mobility?
A. It was about three years before…four years before.
Q. Hm.
A. So, I was ready for it.
Q. Yeah.
A. And I really was. I had spoken to one of the guys who contract with from Delaware, and he was going to come up and work with me. And then when I became a client of the agency, I thought, well, yeah, it's nice if John would do that, but he has to pay city wage tax and Aaron is right here, and he has to pay it anyway, so I might as well go with Aaron.
Q. Hm.
A. So, that’s why I went with Aaron.
Q. Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?
A. I belong to one consumer organization. I am not, not really into it.
Q. What is it?
A. It’s the Delaware Valley Council of Citizens with Low Vision.
Q. Hm. That’s sort of…you’re a member but not active.
A. No, I joined it basically for information…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …and then I wasn’t getting any. I was supposed to be getting the minutes of the meeting and this and that and the other and I never did, and my computer instructor was a founder of this group, and she went and said, OK, we’ve got a member, she’s not getting anything, how about it? So, I started getting their minutes and their resource lists and that kind of thing. And I went to one meeting, and I wasn’t real happy. So, I think I’ll probably keep my membership up, but I don’t think I’m going back.
Q. Hm.
A. And, I am not…the people that I know who are in the NFB in the Pennsylvania Council for the Blind I don’t consider good role models.
Q. Why is that?
A. They’re more…they seem to be out for themselves more than, OK, let’s work toward a goal. You know, everybody’s out there beating their own drum, you know, and it doesn’t seem to be, um, walking in the, in one direction. Everybody’s got their own agenda. Um, and I know, like…I know people who are high up in, in like the federation and the council and, quite honestly, I’m not impressed…and I’ve know them for years and I’ve worked with them.
Q. Um hm.
A. And that might be part of the problem. You know, I know them too well.
Q. Ah.
A. You know…
Q. Yeah, yeah. Um, have you… How did ADA impact you? Do you notice a difference before and after its passage?
A. Um, I [laugh] I, um… The ADA didn’t help me at all. Um, the…we have one…another person in the office who is losing vision very rapidly and they’re reading the ADA very carefully now. And what I’ve been told is that they really…they really screwed me, you know, they really did. Um, I paid for an awful lot of evaluations at their, at their request. Kathy, go get a low vision aid evaluation. Go get a computer evaluation and we’re going to get you equipment. And it never happened.
Q. Hm.
A. And I ended up putting up several thousand dollars. Um, in payment of sort, um, they waived the financial needs test. So, I don’t have to contribute. In the, with the computer equipment, they’ve gotten me with whatever training they’ve gotten me. I have not had to contribute at all. You know… So, they’ve sort of made up for in a way… But it was World War III for me to get services. It was really rough and I was on my way to the Human Relations Commission, probably on my way to the, um, to every--anybody else that I could get my hands on, ‘cause I had started filling out applications for the Human Relations Commission.
Q. So, it hasn’t helped you because…
A. Because the agency that I work for is not, um, adhering to the ADA.
Q. Ah.
A. Um, and they should.
Q. Yeah.
A. They really should, but they don’t and they’re…they’re just really beginning to read the, read the ruling itself and, um, I don’t think that they would follow the ADA if they had to, anyway.
Q. Hm.
A. Quite honestly, and I don’t think, um, agencies, and I don’t think, um, employers are. Really. You know, and I really wonder sometimes how much teeth is in, is really in the ADA.
Q. Right.
A. You know, it doesn’t seem to be that strong.
Q. Hm.
A. Of course, I have not read it, you know, so I can talk about it with them, you know…talk about something I don’t know about. Um, but it, it… The ADA itself did not help me.
Q. Yeah. Um, that’s interview.
A. That’s it?
Q. Yeah.
A. OK.
Q. Um, I really appreciate you taking the time to…
A. You’re welcome.
Q. talk to me about mobility and all of that. And…
A. I hope I helped you.
Q. Yeah, you certainly did. You certainly did. I wonder if there’s anybody that you would, um, recommend that I could call… Um, my requirements are that they are visually impaired and are employed.
A. Well, I have a friend who is unemployed, but she’s been a dog user for, um, many, many years. I have, um, another friend who is also a dog user who…in fact, I was talking to him today and he said, um, what’s your big…you know, what’s your function again. And I told him, and he said, you know, you could get a dog. I said, I thought that, um, um, you…if you have a dog, you have less vision. And he said, oh, no, not at all. You can get a dog from Leader [sp??] I said, no, I’m not really ready, you know, for a dog. And the idea of taking a dog out at 2:30 in the morning in the snow… A cane is a low-maintenance item and right now I’m in [laugh] a low-maintenance mode. For me, a dog would… But let me think about it. I have your phone number on my phone.
Q. OK.
A. I saved it. And let me think about it and if I come across somebody, I’ll certainly, um, give you a call.
Q. Well, that would be terrific. I depend on everybody that I interview to give me more people.
A. Sure. How many people are you interviewing?
Q. I’m shooting for 100.
A. Wow…and how many do you have?
Q. I’ve got 35.
A. Well, OK. And how long have you been working on it?
Q. Since Kalamazoo, is when I first really started getting people.
A. Uh huh.
Q. So, it’s going pretty well.
A. Yeah, really, it is.
Q. I’ve really gotten a lot of neat strategies and tips. I’ve had a lot of fun talking to people, um, about mobility and, so, it’s just been…just a great project for me and I’ve been able to share things with my students at Hunter and I’m putting together something that I think will make a comprehensive book that’s practical.
A. ____________________ idea to do this?
Q. Yeah, it’s my idea.
A. That’s good.
Q. It’s a, you know… I know the theory, I know the, the message. I know the traditional ______ and ponder orientation and mobility instruction. But I also know that there are things that people have found and I have been, you know, gathering, you know…this is what I’ve learned…this is what I do. You know…
A. Yeah.
Q. …everything you always wanted to do that the mobility instructor didn’t, you know, emphasize, or whatever.
A. You know, what I tell my clients is, look, you’re only going to be with your instructor for a certain amount of time. Follow the instructions, listen carefully. When you’re with the instructor, do what the instructor tells you to do. When you’re away from the instructor and you’re done, you’re going to create your own methods and you’re going to do your own thing. And the important thing, whether it’s rehab teaching or mobility, just be safe. That’s what it’s about.
Q. Do you think that, in some ways, you would…it shouldn’t be like that? It should be more… Especially as an adult getting instruction, less of that sort of yelling and military and do it this way and more of a interactive instructional approach?
A. Yeah. I… Yeah. Honestly, I do. But, like I said, it became a game, you know, and I would laugh at Aaron and Aaron would laugh at me and we sort of knew each other. Anyway, and I’m sort of a little…in a different position because I, I work with these people, I contract with these people, I’m… Felicia and I socialize with them, um, so it’s a little…it might be a little different. I don’t know. And if I have a question, if I have a problem, I can pick up the phone, you know… So, it’s a little different maybe than some of the other people you’re talking to. I don’t know. So that would be something you could…
Q. Well, it’s just interesting that it’s like, you know, your advice to fellow travelers is to do what they say but when you get on your own, do, you know, what you need.
A. Always develop your own methods.
Q. Develop your own methods, but where is, where is the advice for the mobility instructor who, uh, maybe needs to be more, um, flexible and aware and, um, you know, in functional…so that there isn’t maybe such a wide gap between what he’s teaching and what is useful.
A. You know what I suggested to Aaron? And I think it would really be helpful is…Get a group of people that he taught together after a year and, and talk. OK, this is what I’m doing, um, ‘cause I think it would be helpful to him. Like, you know, a year later, to go back and say, OK, what are you doing? What are you doing different? What are your problems now? And not to go back into instruction but just to sit down and talk. You know… And I think that might be real interesting. But I think maybe a questionnaire, uh, if person feels comfortable…Of like you…maybe an exit interview if the person, if the client feels comfortable with the instructor.
Q. Right.
A. You know… And I did have sort of an exist interview…we sat on a wall out front…in front of the garden and he said, well, you’re done. And I said that’s interesting because it’s our anniversary. And that was the end of it. So, um…
Q. So, your advice to him was to be maybe a little more responsive to you?
A. Yeah. I think, uh…
Q. Learn from…
A. …responsive sometimes, yeah. Uh, but, like I said, uh, I knew him, and I said, OK, it doesn’t matter, I’m going to do what it takes and that was my attitude when I started training. Um, I will do whatever they tell me to do. There’s going to be an end to this. Uh, and that’s, that’s still my attitude, um, about training. You know…I’m going to do it. I may not like it, but I’m going to do it.
Q. Well, neat. All right. Well, if you know of anybody…
A. I will, I will keep my ears to the ground…
Q. …I appreciate it.
A. …and I do have your phone number.
Q. Great.
A. I’ll let you know.
Q. Well, thanks so much, Kathy.
A. You’re welcome.
Q. I do appreciate it.
A. And enjoy your karate.
Q. Thank you. Yeah, I’m heading off…
A. Think of visually impaired people when you’re doing it so you can teach us.
Q. Yeah, there are…there’s a friend of mine who does do that. She’s a black belt, though…I’m not anywhere near that. [laugh]
A. Well, you’ll get there.
Q. Well, thank you very much. Take care.
A. You, too.
Q. Bye.
Interviewed by: Grace Ambrose
Interview date: 11/08/99
