Betty born 1950 with ROP first cane 1967

Betty grew up without a mobility tool – she will not admit to having any difficulties in her life, and on the surface one can attest – she is the embodiment of success. She is educated, she has a job, she is well-spoken and capable. As an O&M instructor – my interest is in the travel decision. She talked about using a guide to move about and she was careful to not say too much about – it  -suggesting that relying on a guide, even though you had no alternative, is somehow taboo – instead of something that should make you feel angry and question why that choice was made for her as a young child. 

She had O&M, had great skills, but still she was injured crossing the street- bikes come out of nowhere- they are a danger to pedestrians – that is the reason for the dog – perhaps there were other close calls – perhaps that was the only one. But, the real issue is not whether she was independent enough – it is her reality that she is not allowed to wish for better – safer, options growing up. Even when she got her dog guide, her parents disapproved! I am so inspired by her story that she stayed away from her family for almost a year – until they would accept her with her dog guide. That is strength to admire.

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Transcript

Betty  11/29/99

[side A]

Q. If you could, umm state and spell your full name.

A. Betty 

Q. And your date of birth.

A. 5/14/50.

Q. Where were you born?

A. Brady, Texas.

Q. And where do you live now?

A. Austin, Texas.

Q. And what do you do for a living?

A. I’m a vocational rehabilitation counselor for the Texas Commission for the Blind.

Q. Um, and where did you go to college?

A. University of Texas at Austin.

Q. And what’s your highest degree?

A. Bachelor’s. _______________

Q. How long have you had a vision impairment?

A. All my life.

Q. What’s the name of it?

A. Well, it’s currently known as ROP, retinopathy of prematurity.

Q. Is that total blindness, or…

A. Yeah.

Q. When did you first realize that you were visually impaired?

A. Well, as a young child, um, I don’t know that it really meant a whole lot to me, because that’s just the way it was.  I knew it by people telling me that I was visually impaired, if that makes any sense.

Q. Yeah.  Um, when did you first learn to travel independent of another person?

A. Well, cane techniques…cane mobility was not taught officially in Texas until…at the School for the Blind, anyway, until 1966.  So, I had a formal, um, training program with the cane in 1967.

Q. Um hm.

A. And…but prior to then…

Q. So, you were 17 at that point.

A. Right.  Prior to then, I would strike out on my own as all of us would.

Q. Uh huh.  And what did you do prior to that in terms of where would go by yourself?

How would you get there?

A. Well, I lived in the country, and you know in Brady and if I wanted to go somewhere by myself in the country, of course, I would either go with my sister or I would…  There was a path down to the barn…I would just follow the path down to the barn.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And…I didn’t even think about needing an assistive tool until they actually taught us how to do it.  We just, we just did it.

Q. Right.  So, was there a town within walking distance of where you lived?

A. It was about a mile away.  We really did not walk to town, no.

Q. Um, so you would go to the barn.  Did you move about your house independently.

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. Did you ride horses, or…

A. Oh, yeah.  Yeah, I grew up with all kinds of animals and rode horses and just did what everybody else did.  Um, I guess one of the illustrative things to me was, I didn’t understand why I couldn’t play baseball as well as the other kids could.

Q. Uh huh.

A. You know, they told me I was visually impaired but, at a very young age, I just didn’t really have that…have anything to compare it to…although my sister and brother were not visually impaired.

Q. Uh huh.  So, was it…  What kind of farm was it?  Did you all grow wheat or anything like that?

A. Oh, it was mainly, um, you know, we just had chickens.  We had every kind of animal imaginable.

Q. Uh huh.

A. We really didn’t grow anything on that particular piece of land too much, but sometimes Daddy would grow hay or wheat or something to feed the animals, but that was basically it.  My parents had different jobs, but, uh, land out there was sort of a hobby and a place to get us kids away from causing problems in town.  [laugh]

Q. So, did you use any kind…anything in your hands to…

A. No.  Um um.

Q. …protect yourself?

A. Um um.  No.

Q. Did you remember running into anything or…that being a problem at all?

A. I just don't remember it being a problem.  I think I had a lot of facial cues and I just, um…  You know, I’d go sighted guide some, but no it just wasn’t a problem.

Q. Do you need to get that [buzzer]?

A. No, my secretary just walked in.

Q. Oh.  Um, so, it just wasn’t a problem…and try, if you could, sort of a typical day on the farm for you during the week would be, what?

A. Well, you know, I went to a school for the blind at age six.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, um, before that, it [laugh] was doing what all young kids do.  We had chores that we did, cleaning…  Mainly, mine were in the house.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Cleaning the bathroom or waxing the floors or cleaning walls or whatever chores they decided to give us that particular day.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I remember sometimes picking up eggs from the chickens.  Um, and that was…  They had…  They laid their eggs in crates, so that wasn’t really a problem.  I just went by the crates and got those.  And I’d help my granddaddy grade the eggs.  And that was just taking a piece of sandpaper and cleaning them off and that was my chore, basically.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, you know, just whatever chores they assigned us to do, and we’d go swimming a lot in the summer…

Q. Yeah.

A. …go out to the community pool and go swimming.  And we’d ride horseback or go to town with our parents.

Q. Sure.

A. You know, whatever the day happened to bring [laugh] a young child to do, you know.

Q. Right.

A. Then I went to the school for the blind and would come home for holidays and summers.  And pretty much was unscheduled.

Q. Now, was that in Austin, Texas?

A. Yeah.

Q. The school for the blind…

A. Uh huh.

Q. And there was no mobility training there, you said.

A. Not until 1966.

Q. So, what was the…  Was any kind of mobility taught at all?

A. em em.

Q. So what was the…  What were you to do to get around from class to class?

A. We all just walked.

Q. Uh huh.

A. You know, it was…  Sometimes we’d walk with each other and sometimes we wouldn’t, you know.  We just, we ran all over campus, there was steps, we just didn’t think about it.

Q. Right.

A. And I know that sounds really strange, but some of my friends and I talked about this periodically…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …but we just weren’t conscious of it.  We weren’t self-conscious of it, so, we didn’t realize that we were supposed to be…

Q. Yeah.

A. …afraid of anything.

Q. Would do, you remember ever getting disoriented during your childhood?

A. No, not really.  Um, no, I’ve always been…I’ve had good orientation skills.

Q. Un huh.  So, what would you use to get oriented, or…

A. Oh, I guess I’ve always used, like, sound cues and landmarks and a lot of it unconsciously, you know.

Q. Um hm.

A. Like the path to the barn…I knew it was a path and I would follow that.  Um, and, I’d learned at a young age, like, at the swimming pool.  We’d go to the community pool to listen to the radio.  It was always at a stationary point and that meant that that was at the shallow end of the pool.

Q. Right.

A. So I would orient myself a lot with sound cues.

Q. Um, so, at the school, now, before you started getting mobility…

A. Um hm.

Q. …were there restrictions to going off campus?

A. Well, we went off campus every other weekend.  The girls had…  We couldn’t go off campus until we were, oh, well, 15, I think.

Q. Um hm.

A. [laugh]  And there really weren’t any restrictions.  We would usually go, um, you know, there were partially sighted…the girls would go together, and the boys would go together, cause we were definitely not seg--you know, not co-ed at that…oh, well, we were co-ed but we couldn’t go to town together.  So, when we went to town, we usually went sighted guide.  You know, we would link arms and go that way.

Q. Uh huh.  And you could go any afternoon you wanted to?

A. Just on Saturdays…every other Saturday afternoon.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Oh, like, between one and five.

Q. And that was to do what?

A. Whatever we wanted.  

Q. Uh huh.

A. Yeah, they didn’t restrict us.  We just had to be back for dinner.  And there was really no supervision either.  I mean, we went, usually, to the malls, to the shopping centers.  Um, this was back in the ‘60s [laugh]

Q. Yeah.

A. [laugh] so…

Q. Well, do you remember what the messages you got from your family about traveling by yourself to places and doing things?

A. Oh, my family wanted me very definitely to function not as a blind person.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um, when I decided to get a dog in 1971, I had real, really severe arguments with my family over that.  I think they were…they didn’t want the physical trappings or, you know, that showed that I was really blind.  And a dog and a cane to them were real symbols of blindness.

Q. So, what did they say to you about…

A. Well, um…

Q. …how did you know that that's what they wanted?

A. Oh, it was real obvious, because, when I came to college, um, they would say things like, well, you don’t really need the cane to get around.  Well [laugh] and I did, you know, it was really obvious at that point…  I came to UT and, um, when I wanted to get the dog, by that point they thought, well…  In fact, I had a Commission for the Blind counselor that told my parents when I was a senior in high school, all I would do with the dog was use it for a pet.

Q. Oh, gosh.

A. And they believed it.  And, so, they didn’t think I needed a dog, and, in fact, I didn’t go home for about nine months after I got the dog because I told them if they couldn’t accept the fact that I needed a dog and had a dog, then that's just too bad.

Q. Yeah.  Wow, that must have been tough.

A. It was.  It was tough.  Um, and it was, you know, I was working administration for the Commission for a number of years and would travel around the state and the country and…  My mother had cancer so…  Even then, and this was like 13 years ago, my dad had a real problem doing sighted guide. He did not want me to teach him the proper way to do it and we had real, real discussions about that.  Um, but within the last ten years, they’ve pretty much accepted it.  I take my dog to church when I’m with them and I think they have realized that that’s just who I am.  They don’t like it, but…

Q. Wow.

A. …you know, dogs in Brady, Texas, are supposed to stay outside.

Q. Oh.

A. You’re not supposed to have a dog in the house.

Q. Right.  So, just from the get-go, it’s a problem…

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. …in terms of what the dog is allowed to do.

A. But the dog is my dog and if they’re going to accept me, they have to accept the dog.

Q. Yes, yes.  So, then, you’re 17 and you finally are going to get some mobility.

A. Um hm.

Q. Did you anticipate that?  Were you looking forward to that?

A. No, I wasn’t looking forward to it [laugh]

Q. [laugh]

A. I was not.  Um, in fact, I had a male O&M instructor who was very, very critical.

Q. Ah.  About what?

A. He, he, he learned his skills with…at the veterans…the Hines Center…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …and he was very militaristic.  Um, he would yell at us if we botched a street crossing or whatever and…

Q. What did he consider a botched street crossing?

A. Oh, maybe if we didn’t cross straight and we veered.  Um, I think all the females were nervous of him and it wasn’t…  I mean, I used a cane, but I used to try to figure out ways…he would sit in the van and talk to us and I would figure out ways…topics to get him talking so that I wouldn’t have to get out and work with him.

Q. [laugh]

A. [laugh]

Q. Were you successful?

A. Oh, yeah.  [laugh]

Q. [laugh]

A. Much of the time.  [laugh]

Q. So, you started off working, what, indoors with a…

A. We started indoors and then we moved out on the school campus and then we moved into residential and then around the university area and then downtown.

Q. How long do you think you worked with him in all?  Months, a year…

A. Well, it was, you know, we had one class period a day and it was probably about six months.

Q. Do you think that he took, um, for granted things that you knew how to do already?  That he…you…

A. I think I had some light perception, that I wasn’t really aware of using it and he used to tell me that I was using the light perception to pick up the grass line and [laugh]. He was a really nice man…I liked him a lot…but I did not like him as an instructor.

Q. Hm.

A. And, so I wasn’t comfortable with him, and I consequently wasn’t comfortable with an O&M instructor until I went to…  It was Arkansas Enterprises Reliance World and met a really nice Glen Randolph who was an O&M instructor who left mid-way through my time there…I was there for college prep.  But I realized in meeting Glen Randolph that O&M didn’t have to be so painful.  That he wasn’t always going to yell every time I screwed up, or whatever.

Q. Right.  So, the first guy…  Was he always very nearby you when you did all your mobility?

A. Not really.

Q. No?

A. No.

Q. Would he just send you places…say, go here, go there, and then yell from afar when you made mistakes?

A. Yeah, he’d do that.  I remember crossing a wide street…Congress Avenue downtown…and a car honked, and I jumped and got across the street and he yelled at me, why do you always think they’re honking at you?  [laugh]  I’ll never forget that.  [laugh]

Q. And he was, what, still back across the street or whatever?

A. I think he had walked up to me when he said that.

Q. So, after that did you travel independent with the cane, or?

A. Yeah.  Um, I came to UT, and I traveled independently with the cane, in fact, a friend of mine…this guy that I knew told me I was one of the best travelers with a cane, for a girl, that he had…

Q. [laugh]

A. …know.  So, I was crossing the street when I was a junior in college and got hit by a bicyclist.  Um, and then I decided I wanted a dog because I had gotten off a bus and the bus was so loud that I didn’t hear the bicycle coming.

Q. Right.

A. So, I decided I wanted a dog and went to Seeing Eye and got my first dog in the summer of 1971.

Q. So, could you compare for me and contrast what it’s like to do cane versus the dog.  What do you like about either.

A. Well, let me tell you, when I first got a dog and came back to UT, I was real disoriented because the dog is on the left and doesn’t, you know, you don’t pick up the same information on the left that you do with a cane.

Q. Right.

A. And I found that really disorienting.  Um, I had to adjust to that.  And I guess the real difference to me with a dog and a cane is that you don’t pick up as much information in the environment with the dog as you do with the cane.

Q. Right.

A. I like moving around with a dog and I’m not nearly as good now with a cane as I used to be.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And certainly not as confident.  And I would much rather travel with a dog now.  But there is a lot of information that you give up in using a dog.

Q. Like what?

A. Anything that’s on your left, like posts and kiosks.  I mean, you can hear those usually, but, um, the dog walks around things.

Q. Right.  Um, how many different types of mobility tools have you tried?

A. Well, in…  I’ve seen a few things at conventions.  But actually, moving around in everyday life, I haven’t really used anything other than the cane or the dog.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um, I’ve done some work with audible traffic signals.  Uh, back in the ‘80s, I spent a little time with the Mowat Sensor, just playing around with it and that was kind of fun.

Q. Yeah.

A. Um, but as far as for me, personally, moving around in my daily to-and-fro, the only thing I used is either a cane or a dog.

Q. So, do you still sort of switch sort of back and forth every now and then?

A. Not really.  [laugh]  Not really.

Q. It’s mostly dog.

A. Yeah.  When I’m between dogs…

Q. Yeah.

A. …I use the cane.

Q. How many canes do you own?

A. I have one, a straight cane that I dearly love, and I depend on it.  I would rather use it than a folding cane. But I do have a couple of folding canes.

Q. Why is that?  Why do you prefer the straight over the folding?

A. Because, um, if I’m crossing a street, if I hit anything, the straight cane is not going to fold up and break.

Q. Uh huh.

A. The folding canes are…the ones that I have anyway…are more flimsy and, um…although they’re somewhat sturdy.  They just don’t give me the feeling that they’re going to…  On the UT campus, there are a lot…  I work a lot on a college campus and there are lots of people and occasionally they’ll trip over the cane and so…

Q. Right.  So, what kind of tip on the cane…is, uh, on your cane?

A. It’s the Teflon tip..straight Teflon tip.

Q. Um, have you ever bought your own cane?

A. Oh, I did…that is my cane.  I bought it a long time ago.

Q. From where?

A. Uh, I bought it from my first O&M instructor.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I paid $7.50 for it [laugh]

Q. [laugh] Kept it all this time.

A. Oh, yeah…it’s a wonderful cane. I love it. It’s scarred up and beaten up, but it’s great.

Q. Uh huh.  How do you get to and from work?

A. Um, I ride special transit or paratransit in the mornings because my hours start…I start at seven in the morning and the bus doesn’t…wouldn’t get me where I need to go that early.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um, I ride Mainline bus sometimes.  Um, I use a driver in my job quite a bit and, so, I’m out a lot with the drivers seeing clients.  So, sometimes I use my driver to go home.

Q. Do you hire your own drivers?

A. Commission for the blind has a program that they pay $6.00 and hour plus 28 cents a mile to drivers.  But all of us who use drivers supplement that.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, it’s a combination.

Q. So, it’s, like, a pool of people that you can pull from?

A. We have to hire our own people.

Q. You hire your own.

A. Yeah.

Q. And…

A. From wherever we can find people.

Q. Yeah.  Is that a problem?

A. Yeah, yeah, it kind of is.

Q. What sort of qualities do you look for in a driver?

A. Somebody who’s going to be reliable.

Q. Uh huh.

A. That’s the main thing.  Somebody who’s going to be reliable, in fact, I even have a car that people can drive if they don’t have their own.  Um…

Q. Is that the state car?

A. No, it’s my own car.  Um, I had a driver that started with me in 1990 and she worked with me until the doctor told her she couldn’t work any more a few months ago.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, I’ve had her about nine years and I’ve feeling her loss significantly.

Q. Yeah.

A. She was great.  I’m finding that older drivers usually are more reliable…because students’ schedules change so much.

Q. Yeah.  So, when you say they could use your car, now, you and your husband have an older car?

A. Uh huh.

Q. Do you do anything about the insurance for that to have a driver, or…

A. They’re self-employed.  And my car’s insured.

Q. Right…for a nonfamily member driver?

A. Uh huh.

Q. ‘Cause I’ve heard that can be a problem sometimes, too.

A. Uh huh.

Q. Is there a special kind of insurance that you had to do for that, or…

A. No, uh uh.  I have a wonderful agent through State Farm.

Q. Uh huh.

A. They’re just great.

Q. Um, do you have any tips that you would pass along about working with a driver?

A. Well, I think it’s important for the driver and the person who’s blind to feel comfortable together.  Um, so often, people want to talk to the person who has eye contact.

Q. Right.

A. And that just doesn’t work, you know.

Q. Right.

A. The driver has to feel comfortable letting the blind person take the lead.  And sometimes that’s hard…not everybody can do that.

Q. Right.

A. Um, I just like to talk to people real up front at first and tell them what it’s about and, you know, not everybody wants a dog in the car either.  Not everybody likes dogs.  [laugh]

Q. Right.

A. So it does have to be kind of a careful match, really.  Um, I guess I would tell somebody is, we just don’t have to take anybody.  If that person’s not going to be comfortable, we don’t have to take him.  I mean, it's just a matter of probably looking around harder…

Q. Yeah.  Don’t settle.

A. Right.

Q. Do you ever use the driver, um, when you’re with clients?

A. I do.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um, I ask my driver to show the client where to sign the form and maybe read something to the client.  Or sometimes my client might want the driver to help them mark something on their stove.  We don’t do that too much because it’s the…the rehab teachers do that mostly.

Q. Oh, sure.

A. If that ever comes up and they need, you know, and we’re there and we can do, we do it.

Q. So, do you train your drivers at all before you let them out in the field?

A. Yeah.  I mean, it’s mainly just sitting and talking and telling them what I like and don’t like and asking them what their concerns are.

Q. Neat.  Uh, how does the paratransit work out for you?  Are you on some sort of a subscription basis?

A. Yeah.

Q. Any chance that they, um, put you off at the wrong place, or…  Have you ever had a

A. I’ve had that occasionally.  And on Mainline, too…

Q. Uh huh.  Mainline…that’s the public transit bus?

A. Yeah.

Q. What do you do about that?

A. Well, I asked them, like…  I can remember this happened a couple of months ago.  And the guy said, oh, I forgot to stop, da, da, da.  So, where exactly are you…at what corner?

Q. Right.

A. And he told me, and I just crossed the street and walked back. So, it wasn’t any problem.  But, um, having been an ADA trainer, uh huh, I do remind them that, under ADA, they do need to call out the stops…

Q. Right.

A. …and a lot of our bus drivers don’t.  They haven’t quite gotten that yet.

Q. Do they ever talk to you about why they just don’t?  Have you ever asked them?

A. Well, they say that, you know, it’s a very boring…  They ride fixed routes and riding the same route all the time and driving the same route, it just gets boring, and they forget.

Q. Yeah.  So, do you have any strategies for making sure they don’t pass your stop?

A. [laugh]  Well, I pretty much know the curves in the road.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And, and, like, after a certain point when…after that last curve, I know pretty much when to either get off or ask.  And also, the volume of people getting on and off the bus, too, tells…you know, gives some information.

Q. Yeah.  Neat.  Um, have you ever been disoriented?

A. I’ve been lost [laugh] yes.

Q. Yeah.

A. Oh, yeah.  Um…

Q. What do you do?

A. You know, when I was real young, that used to scare me.

Q. Yeah.

A. When I was a freshman in college, I hated to ask for directions.  I just hated it.  And, so, I would walk around for hours trying to figure out where I was.  Um, see we didn’t have any orientation…any formal orientation to the campuses.

Q. Right.

A. My suitemates were great.  They were super and they would show me where all the buildings were at the dinner table by lining up salt and sugar shakers and the utensils.

Q. Oh.

A. And that was cool.

Q. Yeah.

A. That’s how I learned my way, pretty much, around campus.  But I finally decided that I didn’t have enough time, you know, to stay lost like that and so I started asking for directions and asking people where a certain building was or whatever.

Q. UT is huge, UT is…

A. It’s pretty big, yeah.

Q. [laugh]  It’s almost a city unto itself.

A. Uh huh.

Q. I got my Master’s degree there.

A. Oh [laugh] so you know.

Q. Yeah.  It’s a big campus.

A. It is.

Q. It's got buses going through that campus.

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. So, soliciting aid helps…

A. Um hm.  And I’m not shy at all about that now.

Q. Uh huh.  …where you used to be.

A. Uh huh.

Q. How do you feel about traveling alone to unfamiliar places?

A. Well, I did that for a number of years as a part of my job and, while I’m really tired of it…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …it really doesn’t bother me particularly.  I mean, I’m not nervous about asking for a skycap to help in the airport or, um, you know, going to get a cab or whatever and going to where I need to go.  And asking the hotel folks to show me where a patch of grass is.  I just have learned that through the years.

Q. Um hm.

A. I don’t like it.  I mean, the more I’ve done it…just all the crowds and stuff…the older I get the more I don’t like crowds…

Q. Yeah.

A. …and all the rush and sitting in airports you know hurry-up-and-wait.

Q. Yeah.

A. I’d rather not do it.

Q. OK.  So, how do you prepare for it…for the airport, um, for…to get…before you go?  Do you do anything special?

A. No, not really.  Um, I usually take a cab to the airport, and we’ll get out at the curb and check luggage and ask for a skycap.  Now, I knew when I traveled so much, I knew the Austin airport, you know, before they changed it this past year.  I knew it really, really well.  Um, and when people would tell me it’s at Gate 13, I would know where Gate 13 was, and I’d go in and go through security and go down there pretty much independently.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And coming back, um, I knew the airport real well and I’d just get off the airplane and go down to luggage.  Now, I would need some help getting my luggage there.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, what I usually would do would be to get a particular cab driver to meet me and meet me at the luggage carousel.

Q. Oh.

A. And help get the luggage.  Um…

Q. How…like, have their card and give them a call?

A. Well, I have a real good friend who drives a cab.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And I met him one day, while out traveling around and, so, I’ve used him for a number of years and when I want to go somewhere, I’m hoping that he’s available.  And I just call him first.

Q. Right.

A. And then I tell him when I’m going to come back.  And that’s pretty much how I handle that.

Q. Oh, that’s cool. 

A. Yeah.

Q. So then you meet at the baggage claim…

A. Um hm.

Q. …and he assists you in locating your luggage.

A. Um hm.

Q. And how do you locate your luggage on the unfamiliar end?

A. Get a skycap.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Or somebody from the airlines or something.

Q. And just tell them what it looks like.

A. Uh huh.

Q. Does that ever produce any kind of…

A. Not really because I learned a long time ago to have really a good description of the luggage and to put a bright colored tag on it…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …so it would stand out.  Um, so…

Q. So, like, what would you say?

A. OK, well, I have some Hartman luggage and it’s a dark kind of tweed color and it’s not on rollers.  Um and it has H on top and it has a bright yellow tag on it.

Q. So, there you go.

A. Yeah.

Q. Um, how do you establish your position in the environment?

A. In a new place?

Q. Sure.

A. OK, if I go into a store, say, a shop…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …I walk in the door and listen for a minute to see if I can hear a cash register or…get oriented to, like, where the, the line is to…if it’s a restaurant…to walk through.  Um, I just listen for a while.  I try, if I’m going to go somewhere really…like to a restaurant…go somewhere that’s sort of smaller so that it’s not going to be so hard to establish all those cues.  If I go to a department store where I’ve never been before, I’ll walk in and listen a little bit too…and then just ask somebody…where is, whatever I want, you know, the makeup counter or whatever.

Q. Right.

A. And either do sighted guide or ask them to lead the way and I’ll follow or give me directions.  Whichever is most comfortable really for them.

Q. Yeah.  Do you use or have you used tactile maps of any kind…maps?

A. I’ve used them some, like at hotels.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And some of them are much better than others.  Um, some are helpful, and some are not.  Like, we have…we designed some maps here at UT of the buildings.  I find that if they’re on one surface, you know, as opposed to multiple pages…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …that that’s easier for me.

Q. Yeah.  So, one thing is that you like to have it on one page.

A. I do.

Q. What else makes a good map for you?

A. I like different textures. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um, people have gotten really creative in using several different, like, string and oatmeal or rice or whatever, in making different textures and I found that real helpful.  And different shapes…they use different shapes for buildings and a good key.

Q. Yeah.

A. That’s important.

Q. So, you’re thinking about a flat, um, sort of three-D but not…sort of a relief –type map.  Um, you like those.  Not like a model.

A. Models are good, too.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I just haven’t seen that many models really.

Q. Yeah.  Uh, what makes a bad map?

A. I have problems with multiple pages.

Q. Right.

A. Um, it’s hard for me to get a real concept, like, of a hotel if it’s done on multiple pages and, like [laugh] I was seeing one, one time just recently and they didn’t…  This was a bunch of buildings, um, away from the Center.  If they had shown, for me, one page and described, OK, this is…maybe in some prose…this is the main lodge and here are the outbuildings, I think I would have found that more useful.

Q. Yeah.  Spatially put it together more.

A. Uh huh, uh huh.

Q. Um, what one thing that happens frequently when you’re traveling do you like the least?

A. When I’m traveling with someone else and I ask directions or talk to other people and they don’t talk to me, they talk to the person with eye contact.

Q. Yeah.

A. I hate that and [laugh] I bet you hear that a lot.  Um, sometimes people will even talk to the dog.

Q. Oh, my gosh.  Oh  [laugh]

A. [laugh]  And I don’t mind educating people.  If people really want to learn, that’s one thing, but if they’re being just stupid and not wanting to learn anything, that bothers me [laugh].

Q. Yeah.  Interesting.  What do you want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?

A. To ask.  Would you like some help, may I help?

Q. What…  Could you compare for me what the differences are for, say, traveling in Brady versus Austin, Texas?

A. Well, Brady has no public transportation.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Brady has two red lights.  Austin is a huge city.

Q. Yeah.

A. Brady is very, very rural.

Q. So, what kind of options do you have in Brady to…for traveling…for getting around?

A. Um, to go with someone else basically…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …or to walk.  And that’s it.

Q. What about for orientation out there in the wilds of Brady.  [laugh]  What kinds of things can you use, um…

A. Well, there’s a square.  It’s built…the downtown area is built around a square…

Q. Oh.

A. …and if somebody explains that, then it’s really not difficult at all.  If somebody has a concept of it, it’s not hard.

Q. Uh huh.  What about out on the farm?  What do you use to remain oriented out there?

A. Audible cues.

Q. Like what?

A. Um, well, trees and, um, the barn and different buildings and…  See, I haven’t been…I don’t spend much time there at all anymore, so, I just will walk down the road with my dog and with my dad when I go visit him and it’s just a straight road, so…  You have the side of the road, there’s a ditch and the road is…the center of it is a paved road but on the side is a gravel shoulder, so…

Q. Neat.

A. Yeah.

Q. Um, OK.  Have you ever been injured when traveling?

A. Um, I was hit by a car with my first dog, and it was my fault because I was so cocky, I thought that we were invincible.  And I was turned around talking to my roommate behind me.

Q. Oh.

A. And I was crossing an alley and I wasn’t paying attention.  But we weren’t knocked down, it just scared me.  You know, it brought reality really home that I needed to not be so cocky.  [laugh]

Q. [laugh]  Um, how do you handle being lost or disoriented?

A. Ask questions, stop, listen.  Listen for traffic.

Q. How do you learn a new place, a new route, for the first time?

A.I usually ask.  If I’m going to go somewhere, I usually ask somebody before I strike out.

Q. Uh huh.  Like, what will you ask them?

A. Oh, how many blocks is it to…wherever I want to go.  Are there some real major intersections that I’m going to need to cross?  When I walk, like, where do I turn?  Are there sidewalks?  Um, or, like, can I walk on the sidewalks…do I have to step into the street?

Q. Um hm.  Do people usually know that kind of information?

A. Parts of it.

Q. So, do you ask, like, the people you’re going to?

A. Uh huh.  Sometimes, yes.

Q. Who else might you ask?

A. The concierge at the hotel.

Q. Uh huh.  What kinds of things do you use as landmarks?

A. Um, I’m usually in hotels, so there are usually real wide entrances into the hotel.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Which is a definite indication.  Um, pieces of carpet under my feet.  Textured sidewalks.  And traffic…I use traffic a lot as cues.

Q. How?

A. Um, to know directions.

Q. Um hm.

A. Like, if I’m walking and the traffic is on my right, that will tell me something.  If it’s in front of me, that will tell me something.  If it’s in both places, that’ll tell me something, too.

Q. Right.  Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?

A. I belong to the American Council of the Blind and I’m an associate of NFB.  Um, I’m a lifetime member of the Coalition of Texans for Disabilities.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And I serve on several committees.

Q. For…

A. Like the Austin Mayor’s Committee for Persons with Disabilities.

Q. Neat.  Is there any conflict in you being both ACB and NFB?

A. No.

Q. No.  [laugh]

A. No.

Q. Um, what do you think drives the split between NFB and AER?

A. NFB just doesn’t want to join any other organizations.  NFB…  See, that’s why I can’t totally be an NFB member because I really, fundamentally disagree with some of their basic ideals.

Q. Oh.  Like…

A. Well, like, they are so, so isolationist.

Q. Um hm.

A. Um, they want to stay very separate.  I wanted NFB and ACB…our chapters to work together on a legislative process last year and NFB refused.

Q. Oh.

A. So, I had a real problem with that.

Q. And you felt there was a common ground…

A. Oh, sure…very definitely.

Q. It was like Braille or something?

A. No, it was on whether or not the Texas Commission for the Blind should stay a separate state agency.

Q. Uh huh.  Which is very important to NFB.

A. Oh, yeah.  Oh, it was important to everybody…the whole blind group.

Q. Sure.

A. And why we couldn’t put aside our differences and all work together…I was really angry about that.

Q. Right.  Do you know of other people who are members of both?

A. Well, see…I used to belong to NFB and they wanted me to be a national officer.  And I disagreed with them on an issue and they turned off the mike on the floor.

Q. Ooh.

A. The bottom line is, I have some really good friends in NFB and I stay in touch with them.  Um, but I refuse…

[side B]

A. …can’t listen to opposing viewpoints and I have a real problem with that.

Q. Yeah.

A. I like a lot of things they do.

Q. Yeah.

A. They have done some really good stuff.

Q. Yeah.  But they’re just not democratic.

A. No.  Very formal and, and I get tired of their formality.  We have so many other important things, in my opinion, to do.

Q. Yeah.  Um, how did ADA impact you?  Do you notice a difference before and after its passage?

A. Well, actually working in employment and on the college campus, I think we’re sort of experiencing a backlash from ADA.

Q. Ah.

A. I think people, in some instances, are resenting the government telling them that they have to do X Y and Z things, including hiring people with disabilities.  Where before the passage of ADA, people would do it quote out of the kindness of their heart unquote.  So, I think we've seen some backlash to that.  Um, but I think that’s to be expected from a historical point.

Q. Yeah.  So, you think the pendulum will swing back…

A. I do.

Q. And be better than ever.

A. Well, I hope so.

Q. Perhaps _____

A. I think we need ADA.

Q. Absolutely.  So, personally, have you experienced the backlash or is it just professionally that you, um, experience it?

A. More professionally.

Q. Yeah.  People that you counsel or what have you?

A. Yeah.

Q. Yeah.  Uh, what do you attribute to your present level of mobility?

A. Um, I have to tell you that mobility, I think, in the’90s and getting near 2000 is getting harder.  With all the traffic and especially in Austin, which is just huge.

Q. Yeah

A. Um, with people getting killed.  You know, there have been several people who had lights in their favor, who were crossing…  It’s definitely getting more scary and it’s getting, to me, anyway…  Where I used to get out and just take a  walk and do it mindlessly…but I can’t do that anymore.  Um, and I miss that.

Q. So, you think it’s impacting your present level.

A. I do.

Q. Yeah.

A. I do.

Q. Um, do you think you’d ever get more mobility instruction?

A. Probably.

Q. In what case?

A. Just for a confidence builder.  Getting out and reading traffic.  Um, just…  I, I don’t think it ever hurts to take some additional…you know, just to…like a confidence builder or whatever…get out and read traffic with somebody and just make sure that what I’m reading is what’s really going on.  Um, traffic lights and with all the turn lanes have gotten a whole lot more complicated than when I was taught mobility and the rules change.

Q. Right.  So, just to revisit that a little.

A. Yeah.  Yeah.

Q. Uh, talk about it.  Do you think you would be able to do that with a friend?

A. Yeah, I have a real good friend who’s an O&M instructor and she and I have talked about just doing it.  Um, also, my husband works for Seeing Eye, so, you know, he’s really good with that, too.

Q. But, like, a non-mobility friend…

A. Yeah, I’m just really lucky…  I think that’s certainly, um, possible, but I’m real lucky to have friends to are…

Q. Right.

A. …mobility instructors.  [laugh]

Q. [laugh]  That’s cool.

A. Yeah.

Q. What do you think of blind mobility instructors?

A. Well [laugh], that is an interesting issue.  You know, um, I think blind people will give really good directions.

Q. Yeah.

A. Some of the best directions I’ve ever gotten have been from blind people.  Now, I’ve never had an O&M person who’s blind and I would be, for me, personally, I’d been scared of it.  Um, I don’t know, you know…  Never say never, but I sure would want someone to show me.  I don’t quite understand how a blind person could tell if somebody’s arc wasn’t good.  And I haven’t had that explained to me well enough to where I’m really comfortable with it.

Q. Yeah.  I’ve heard that, you know, one method is to put something on the floor that’s about the right height and the cane contacts it, they have a sense that you’re the right height.

A. But, how do you do that in the middle of the street?  I mean how do you know…

Q. At some point, after you’ve taught the person the mechanics of the technique, you’ve got to move on from that.

A. Yeah.

Q. And consequences, um, you know, beyond that environment of where you teach the actual technique also allow us to say, well, gee, you know, that’s the reason why I’m running into things on my left because the cane isn’t covering me on my left, or what have you.

A. But if you have an open manhole or whatever and your arc isn’t good enough to detect it…

Q. Um hm.

A. …um, you know…and I suppose anybody can do that after they’ve had a course of mobility with, with someone sighted or blind.  But during the course of instruction…

Q. It is about selecting environments differently and progressing along the lines of…that way.  Uh, but also, I think that…the people I’ve talked to who do it have a lot tougher philosophy in terms of, of, you know, not, not too much watching over…  You know, you get a good sense that they’ve got it and it’s a lot more fending for yourself kind of technique that, um, a lot of people appreciate.  Not everybody, I’m sure.

A. Um hm.

Q. Um, so, some of which, you know, I’d like to see some of my mobility instructors…people that I’ve work with…especially very new instructors who are just learning…and having to not bring with them attitudes that, you know, people need me [laugh] to look out for them…

A. Um hm.

Q. …24/7.  I want…

A. I agree with that. I certainly agree.

Q. --you know, you’re just a part of the process.  You’re not the cure [laugh] or whatever.  You have to be able to get out of that.

A. But in the learning curve, if, if I have a totally blind person teaching me to cross an eight-lane intersection and I’m not there yet with my skills, I don’t know how that would work.

Q. Right.  That’s the deal…is that, from what I understand, that we move along in a way that you get to know your person…

A. Um hm.

Q. …you know, when they are ready…

A. Um hm.

Q. …and the comfort level of being very nearby…these being excellent travelers themselves…

A. Um hm.

Q. …they are able to judge, first of all, whether or not that’s an appropriate lesson…

A. Um hm.

Q. …and second of all, have a little less fear about, you know, the real world…

A. Um hm.

Q. …and then, you know…  If it’s time, it’s time. You’ve got it, you can do it.

A. Um hm.

Q. Do it.  So, I, I tell you, I, I just think that…I have a big wide-open mind and I know that not everybody who wants to be a mobility instructor…sighted or blind…is cut out for it.

A. That’s true.

Q. So [laugh] I think it’s better…

A. Um hm.

Q. …that we also look to, you know, what kinds of attitudes…what kinds of philosophies are we able…  You know, what do you have to bring into it?  Spatial orientation, do you know your right from your left [laugh]

A. Um hm.

Q. Things that matter in being a good instructor, learning how to instruct, learning how to be not so…  ‘Cause, if you could, sort of, compare for me the military guy versus the guy that you really liked in terms of their style and what you gained from them.  I mean, could you think back in terms of that?

A. Well, the military guy definitely impressed on me that you need to have your arc, um, X inches you need to put your arm in the center of your body, and you have to do this X, you know.

Q. Right.

A. Glen, on the other hand, was very much more laid back.  And his attitude was, I want you to be safe, but if your arc isn’t as wide as whatever, but if it works for you, that’s what important.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um, I, I worked much better under that sort of teaching technique.

Q. Yeah.  And, but did both of them give you a sense that they respected what you brought to the situation in terms of your level of orientation that you already had?  And…

A. I don’t remember if George…  I did not feel respected by the first guy.

Q. No.

A. Not at all.

Q. Right.  In terms of…  That’s the other thing.  People bring with them a lot…

A. Um hm.

Q. …and so, to learn to respect it, we don’t always seemingly have to start at square one [laugh]

A. Oh, no.  We…  That was not how it was presented to us [laugh] at first.

Q. What do you mean?

A. We start at square one, you spent X number of days walking down the hall at the school for the blind that you knew very well.  Um…

Q. And how did that make you feel?

A. I was bored with that whole thing.

Q. Yeah. So right there, there’s already the tension…

A. Um hm.

Q. …maybe and a little bit of, you know, what are we doing here?  Does this really matter to me?

A. Yeah.

Q. And the focus being on the technique…

A. Well, see, I wasn’t asked if I wanted to learn, either I was told you will do this.

Q. Uh huh.  At some point along the line, did you decide, regardless of what this guy says, I sort of like having this thing make contact with objects before my feet do, or…

A. Um, um.  No.

Q. No.

A. Not until I went away from a familiar environment…

Q. Right.

A. …did I really decide that I needed it for me.

Q. Was that after you graduated from high school?

A. Um hm.  When I went to Arkansas.

Q. So.  Interesting.  But the techniques sort of fell into place at that point?

A. Um hm.

Q. Yeah.

A. Yeah.  Well, and it was a matter of, hey, you don’t have any choice.  [laugh]  You’re going to be out here, going from point A to point B and you just have to do it.

Q. Um hm.  Well, that’s the interview.

A. I hope it helps.

Q. It sure does.  I really appreciate you taking the time.

A. Sure. Yeah, I guess ____________________ even though mobility is scary sometimes.  It’s just a point of, man, if we’re going to live in the world, we have to just make ourselves do it.

Q. Yeah.

A. Uh, many times I’ve bitten my lip to, you know, just go do it.

Q. Bitten your lip, why?

A. Well, there are some new things…rules have changed.  Some of these intersections are pretty scary to cross.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, if I want to get to where I want to go, I just have to go do it.

Q. Right.

A. Being careful, of course, but, still…

Q. At one point you just know that it’s your life and it’s time to go.

A. Right.

Q. Yeah.  Take a deep breath.

A. Yeah and just go.

Q. Yeah.  More power to you.  [laugh]  OK, well I hope to hear from you…

A. Well, thank you.

Q. And thank you very much.

A. Sure.

Q. Bye.

A. Bye.

Interviewed by:         Grace Ambrose

Interview date:          11/29/99

Transcription             Lenni

Transcription Date:  2/28/01

Reviewed by:            Grace Ambrose

Review date:             9/29/2001