Marcia born blind in 1950 Classic Story of Growing up Independent without a Mobility Tool

Marcia, born in 1950, is an example of what everyone would like me to understand – she is such a successful person (may she rest). Born blind she was an independent child – from her accounts she hated the long cane as a child, and she didn’t need it. This is the story that every parent wants to hear – that their child will grow up like Marcia – a successful teacher, married and capable of a full, rich life. 

But I want to draw your attention to listen between the lines. She got her first long cane in 4th grade, and she hated it, the instructor didn’t relate to kids, and she didn’t understand why she needed it – You see as an 8-year-old she remembered walking alone pushing her toy baby carriage to visit the town. Yes, her dog was in tow and yes, her mother made her brother follow her, and yet – she is adamant that she was an independent 8-year-old who didn’t need a mobility tool.

But why? Why I ask is this the story we raised Marica to recite – what I hear is that yes, she did run into objects and people, that to stay on track she had one foot on the grass and one on the sidewalk, that as an adult she knew fear and doubt – 

Like my Junior High gym teacher said to me when she found me smoking, just think of how fast you could be running if you never smoked. I ask – what more could Marcia have accomplished had she never had to make her way so precariously on her own, without an effective mobility tool – as a child. I believe her when she celebrates her life as one well lived and yet- as a child – she had no choice but to be exposed to these dangers and to learn to tough it out. 

I will always be on the side of the vulnerable child – to advocate for effective tools.

Listen to Marcia – but hear her story with educated ears – 

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Transcript

  Marcia, born in 1950, is an example of what everyone would like me to understand – she is such a successful person (may she rest). Born blind she was an independent child – from her accounts she hated the long cane as a child, and she didn’t need it. This is the story that every parent wants to hear – that their child will grow up like Marcia – a successful teacher, married and capable of a full, rich life. 

But I want to draw your attention to listen between the lines. She got her first long cane in 4th grade, and she hated it, the instructor didn’t relate to kids, and she didn’t understand why she needed it – You see as an 8-year-old she remembered walking alone pushing her toy baby carriage to visit the town. Yes, her dog was in tow and yes, her mother made her brother follow her, and yet – she is adamant that she was an independent 8-year-old who didn’t need a mobility tool.

But why? Why I ask is this the story we raised Marica to recite – what I hear is that yes, she did run into objects and people, that to stay on track she had one foot on the grass and one on the sidewalk, that as an adult she knew fear and doubt – 

Like my Junior High gym teacher said to me when she found me smoking, just think of how fast you could be running if you never smoked. I ask – what more could Marcia have accomplished had she never had to make her way so precariously on her own, without an effective mobility tool – as a child. I believe her when she celebrates her life as one well lived and yet- as a child – she had no choice but to be exposed to these dangers and to learn to tough it out. 

I will always be on the side of the vulnerable child – to advocate for effective tools.

Listen to Marcia – but hear her story with educated ears – 

Q. Full name: 

A. Marcia Nigro Dresser

Q. Date of Birth:

A. 10/15/50

Q. Where were you born?

A. I was born in Medford, Massachusetts

Q. And where do you live now?

A. In West Hartford, Connecticut

Q. And what do you do for a living?

A. I’m a teacher of the Visually Impaired

Q. Um where did you go to college?

A. I went to Stonehill College in Massachusetts for undergrad and then I went to Boston College for graduate school

Q. Great so your master’s is your highest degree?

A. Uh hm

Q. How long have you had a vision impairment?

A. All my life, I’m a RLF baby, ROP they call it now.

Q. Yes, um now are you totally blind?

A. Yes

Q. OK, When did you first realize you were visually impaired?

A. I think maybe kindergarten cause I was with other kids that were running around doing things and I guess I knew it on some level earlier but I really didn’t know it. I mean I think I figured it out in kindergarten. 

Q. Yeah. Now, did you have any kind of travel took in kindergarten?

A. No, I didn’t even see a cane until 4th grade.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes, and I hated it.

Q. You hated the cane?

A. I hated it. Oh man I used to get around without it. What I used to do. Actually, when I was younger, I would take my doll carriage. We lived in Rain Massachusetts then. And I took my, I would take my doll for a walk downtown which was all the way down the end of our street, turn left and go maybe 8 blocks down another street. And I’d be downtown. My doll carriage would act as the cane, cause when it went off the curb, I knew I had to step of the curb, you know? 

Q. Yeah!

A. Very ingenious. 

Q. Absolutely.

A. So, that was my cane, if you call that a travel tool.

Q. So you would be with your mom?

A. No. 

Q. By yourself.

A. I used to just go, I used to just take off and go down the street and go downtown when I was about, you know, I don’t know eight. 

Q. That’s great, so I was going to say were you restricted anyway, but

A. So that was my travel tool I guess. 

Q. apparently you were given the green light to do and go?

A. I was. My mother would send my brother off after me. He was kind of mad, he had to go rescue me. My—our faithful German shepherd Missy would always go with me and watch out for me. 

Q. Awww.

A. You know, she knew, she, she—My parents never held me back, I was very, very lucky cause I know a lot of people you know that are adults now that have a problem cause their parents sheltered them, I just thank god for my parents every day. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I really do, cause I’m sure other parents chastised them for what they were doing, and I’m sure they had many sleepless nights you know but, what they did paid off. 

Q. mm, so, you’re being allowed to go and do, I mean would you go and visit neighbors and 

A. Yeah, oh yeah.

Q. Did you ever get lost?

A. Uhm, couple times, but not, not seriously. I didn’t--usually didn’t go exploring too far off a place I didn’t know. I wasn’t adventurous like that too much. I think I did a couple of times, but I didn’t really get seriously lost. I think I did once, and it scared me. So I didn’t you know I didn’t try to go crazy. I actually wen where I knew I was going.

Q. Because you’d gone that way before?

A. Yeah, yeah.

Q. Do you remember learning about the names of streets?

A. Oh yeah. Yeah my parents always told me where we were. Even in the car when we were going places, my father would say, well you know Misch we’re going on 128 south now cause we’re going down to the Cape. And we have to hit the southeast expressway you know but if we were going to go to Gloucester, we’d go on 128 North. You know when 193 was built it was a new highway and he explained to me where it went, it ended in Boston and went up north to New Hampshire. So, every place I’ve lived I’ve made a mental map of streets and people asked my father “why do you do that with her? Why do you bother her, and she’ll never drive.” and he said “her friends will and she has to tell them how to get places.” 

Q. Neat.

A. Yeah, so I’ve always been able to do that. It’s actually helped me in my mobility cause I’ve used the same mapping skills like that for streets that I did with the highways. 

Q. Right. So, in other words, explain it to me what you’re talking about.

A. Well, if I go places like say around Connecticut here some people that visit me don’t know the highways, don’t know which way to go so I would tell them. You know, go 84 east to 91 south and whatever switch to the New York Parkway get off on such and such exit. And then when you hit, you know when you get off on exit 61 you turn right and then you go to the first traffic light and turn right again and all this stuff. 

Q. Yeah. 

A. I do that and get people places in cars and I also figure it out when I’m walking with my cane, I try to figure out the relationships of the streets so I that don’t just become a route traveler. Because if you become a route traveler and I’m not putting that down cause there are some people that’s all they can do at least they can get places they want to go and that’s fine. But, if you really understand the relationship between where places are you can branch off from your route. But if someone tells you that something is on Prospect Street and you know where Prospect St. is and how it relates to where you are you can get to Prospect street go down Prospect St. and ask directions you know? 

Q. Yeah, absolutely. What are your childhood memories of riding bikes, play? Those sorts of things?

A.  Oh I had a bike, they didn’t, my parents didn’t want me to ride on the street with my bike because it was, you know there are cars and all that. But we had a big, huge driveway so I could ride up and down that and my father would go with me at least once a week on my bike and then we had, we got a tandem bike and I loved that. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I got that when I was nine. 

Q. Neat.

A. and my dad and I went out at least once a week on that. And people would—you know we’d be riding by and “WOW! Look at that!” Cause you know tandems were, you know uh a rarity back then and it was an old Ira Johnson Tandem with no speeds. So, we used to tell everybody we had one speed us. 

Q. (chuckle) and in your driveway did you get it all planned out like you knew where you were because.

A. Yeah, yeah I knew where I was I knew the landmarks.

Q. What were they?

A. It was a big steep. Our driveway from the street, it started down a pretty steep hill and then we shared a driveway with our next-door neighbors. So that about when you got to about 2/3rds of the way down the driveway branched off you went right to our house and left to theirs. 

Q. Or grass straight in front of you?

A. Yeah, so I knew, yeah it was pretty cool. 

Q. Yeah.

A. It was, it was I’m sorry left to ours and right to theirs. Now that I think about it again. 

Q. (Chuckle)

A. Yeah that’s right left to ours and right to theirs. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. Uhm yeah it was pretty cool. They let me ride around their yard and I could go on our yard and fun. Down to our garage and I’d turn around, loop around and go all over again and going up the hill, it was a pretty steep hill it was good exercise. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And at the crest of the hill at the top wasn’t quite the street yet so I could so then I knew I had to turn around. 

Q. So it was very distinct. Now before fourth grade you didn’t use a cane.

A. Nope.

Q. And you felt confident even without your baby carriage?

A. Yes. I thought the cane

Q. Even without your baby carriage pushing in front of you, you’d go around school?

A. Yeah, Oh yeah. I never used my cane in school even when I had a cane.

Q. Why’s that?

A. It was there were crowded hallways, you’d trip everybody.

Q. Right. 

A. I never needed to. I knew where the stairs were I just. I always thought the cane was a major encumbrance. I hated it. 

Q. So, what travel tool do you use now?

A. I use a cane now. I had a dog before. Loved it, I had two dogs and they, first dog got hit by a car it was a freak accident that was back in 1971 and the second one got sick. So I’m a little gun shy and I actually tried another dog from Fidelco because Fidelco actually does community stuff in Connecticut and, but their dogs are huge and she was too big for me. Because she was 70 lbs and I weigh 105 and I couldn’t control her. I loved her she was smart and I loved her training and even now I’m signed up to go to Seeing Eye this summer. 

Q. Oh.

A. But uh, I want to, I really but I again I get hung up on the fact that a lot of people don’t like dogs and don’t want them around and you know when you’re traveling, you’ve got to worry about feeding them and all that which, you know I love animals. I have a cat and I you know they’re good company. My husband doesn’t want a dog ever, so he uses a cane, so we go together a lot. We can hold hands and one of us drives you know with the cane. 

Q. Oh neat.

A. And the uhm, but I love the freedom of movement with the dog; I love to be able to walk fast. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And with a cane, you know we go out for walks and night you can’t power walk with a cane, you just can’t. 

Q. Yeah.

A. As much as you want to you just can’t. I don’t find it enjoyable to walk with a cane. It’s not; I have to concentrate so hard. 

Q. Yeah, with the dog there’s a different level of concentration?

A. Yes, a different kind, a different kind. You still have to be alert. But it’s just different. 

Q. How is it different? Can you put it into words?

A. I guess with a cane, you uhm, well it’s a little better now, cause I have one of those um, what do you call them. Those big fat tips at the end that rolls that keeps, that keeps—is it a marshmallow tip?

Q. Is it a marshmallow cause they have a bunch of different shaped ones that could fit that description. They’re all pretty big.

A. I don’t know what it is; it’s a big fat thing so that the cane doesn’t get caught in the cracks. 

Q. It’s not flat though?

A. No. It’s kind of like a bubble. And it also rolls. 

Q. mh hmm.

A. So that that’s a big help. But it’s like if you veer the least little bit you have to figure out how you veered. Um you do that with a dog too, it’s different. Dogs want to look at something and take you someplace. That’s annoying to me too, I want to be able to be in control of, but its, you know you hit poles, clang. I hate that. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I hate tripping people on the sidewalk. If I don’t know where I try to be careful and know where people are but if I miss, You know I’m afraid of tripping somebody. Cause once I caused someone to fall because my cane got between her legs. I didn’t mean to, but I felt awful. Now, people when I learned mobility it was one set of rules and now the traffic patterns are so complicated with the different arrows to turn, and you know right turn on red. Right turn on red alone I could probably deal with.

Q. Yeah.

A. but there’s all these different arrows and you know yields and I don’t like crossing the streets under my own power just with a cane. When I can I get assistance. I never used to do that. That might have been that I was young and foolish, but I really now, I get a lot more assistance and it’s not cause I’m a bad traveler. I think I’m a good traveler, but I also don’t want to get hit. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And I think people are more angry on the roads lately. It may be my imagination but. 

Q. They have different intersections entirely. I mean they have the actuated intersections which aren’t even a cycle anymore. 

A. Oh, actuated means when people come up to them to trip the. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Yeah, oh yeah I hate that. 

Q. So that completely throws everything for a loop. 

A. Yep. It’s really bad and they’re very—it’s nice where there are walk lights, but the walk lights don’t last very long either. 

Q. Right and locating the button.

A. Yeah, locating the button, then once you figure out that it’s really the walk light, like say you if there’s um any kind of ambient noise you want to make sure it’s really the walk light 

Q. Right.

A. and you’ve lost five valuable seconds by the time you figured it out. 

Q. Right.

A. You know it makes me nervous. So I do, I get more assistance than I used to. 

Q. So now, in fourth grade and here you are a bright young woman, who’s getting around just fine, it seems.

A. Oh yeah I was.

Q. You go to mobility. 

A. Oh, God I hated, Mr. Turner, poor Mr. Turner, I gave him such a hard time. the poor man.

Q. What was the method being used to teach you what was the problem, what was the good? What was what?

A. He was a very nice man, but he had no personality and I was in a braille class, I was in a public school, but um it was in a place where. I don’t know what they called it. It was in Massachusetts back then they did this, a lot of kids went to Perkins but those of us who didn’t um they had several schools in different areas of the state that had a Braille teacher housed there. So, I traveled about oh maybe 10 miles to school everyday. And I was in my regular classes but I spent some time with the braille teacher and as it went on I spent more and more time in the regular class and less and less time with her. 

Q. Neat.

A. So that by the time Junior high came I could go back to Reading. I first got mobility in Malden where this Braille class was, and my Braille teacher was telling me how important it was and all that. But this poor guy had no personality, 

Q. Yeah.

A. and he would make us do these exercises in the room, which I was a snap at. 

Q. Like what?

A. Oh finding things. Like he’d drop a beanbag and you had to go get it. I’d just walk over and said so what? 

Q. (laugh).

A. You know and like he’d put my back to one table and say go find the bookshelf, I’d race over there and find it.

Q. Yeah.

A.  And that was OK, but then I went around school he’d have me go all over school. I just went, found the steps I did what I had to do and then he gives me this cane and he says, “you’ve go to use this outside” and I’m like why? Just tell me where to go, tell me where the curbs are. I’ll find them. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. But he, he. And I felt so, like this thing was in my hand, I felt so different, so awkward and so weird. 

Q. Right.

A. So I had the cane 4th, 5th, and 6th grade. 

Q. So it sounds like he didn’t ever acknowledge what you brought to the lesson.

A. You know he didn’t. He didn’t. He didn’t. 

Q. He was sort of starting you off where he wanted to start you.

A. Yes. He was, he was nice, but he wasn’t good with kids. He didn’t. I think he was probably better with adults, 

Q. uh huh.

A. to be honest. 

Q. And then he gives you the cane and you really don’t recollect much instruction with it, or you do?

A. I remember going around the block with it in Malden. I don’t remember if we, I think we crossed residential streets. We didn’t get into major um bigtime. Cause Highland Ave. in Malden even then was this major like 2 lanes going each way. We didn’t try that. But I know we crossed residential streets. And I know we did it once a week and I hated every minute of it. Couldn’t wait to get back in. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Um other kids saw it as a way to get out of class. I wanted to go back in and do my classes. I got all As and I wanted to work and didn’t want to miss anything, 

Q. Wow.

A. and I thought this was a colossal waste of time. So, um then I didn’t have the cane though until because I went back to Reading and I didn’t have it again until my junior year of high school and my the guy that taught me then. 

Q. So, now I’m just trying to picture this. You’re totally blind.

A. Yep.

Q. And you have figured out that travel without a cane is possible and you’re not coming back with bruises, you’re not?

A. No. I was careful. 

Q. What do you think you were, how were you doing that? I mean you don’t do it now? 

A. No. 

Q. But do you remember back how, what ways you devised for yourself to get through?

A. Yeah, I did. I can tell you want I did. See I used to walk to junior high every day too,

Q. Is that right?

A. without my cane. 

Q. Interesting.

A. Cause I think, well for one thing it wasn’t Boston. OK, it wasn’t like a big city. I think if I had to travel in Boston or even Malden, you know, I probably would have used a cane, but Reading Massachusetts then it was a town of 21,000 people. So it wasn’t, the street I lived on was  a dead-end street. It was probably 3/4ers of a mile long. There were streets going off of it so it was certainly well traveled, but I was on the end of it that was getting near the dead end, so there was traffic. But it wasn’t. I could always hear the cars coming. There were no traffic lights on Prospect Street. So, if I had to cross just stood at the edge and waited until I knew it was safe and I could cross. There were also no curbs. There were dirt sidewalks and then when you were going to get to a street there was a little grassy thing you stepped up and then it sloped down to the street 

Q. Oh.

A. and so it was like a, people in wheelchairs would like it because it wasn’t a curb. It was like, well it was a slope.

Q. Huh.

A. and the little side streets were very infrequently traveled as well. And even if they were being traveled, again I could hear. It wasn’t so bad that you couldn’t hear. So, what I would do, to go to Junior High. I would go out my front door, turn left, walk down two houses, cross Mineral Street. I was on Prospect St. at the time. Keep going get to King St. Then I had to cross King and Prospect. So, I would cross Prospect then turn right and cross King. Um stay on the sidewalk on King St. I would usually keep one foot on the grass or touching the grass to make sure I didn’t veer. But even so, veering only meant that you touched the other shoreline so it wasn’t like you could veer into the street. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And then I would walk to the next corner which was Temple St. I had to cross that and turn left, and go down maybe another block to my school and then I turned right into the school driveway and then I shorelined with my foot up to the door. 

Q. Do you remember having any kind of landmarks or things that comforted you, you knew you were here because.

A. Yeah on King, well I knew I was getting to Temple St. there was a mailbox on between King St. and Temple St. there was a mailbox. I mean between Prospect and Temple on King there was a mailbox. There was another mailbox on King going back toward Mineral so I knew that I was OK. But I knew, but I mean one time I was going 

Q. Would you go and touch them or what?

A. No, I could hear them it was facial vision. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. I have really good facial vision. When I went to the Carroll center after highschool they tested our facial vision and he told me he’d never seen it anything like it except on me. I don’t know if he just said that to everybody, but I do have pretty good facial vision. I can use it even now. I’m sitting on my bed and there’s a built-in shelves that are probably arm’s length from me, maybe a little more, like maybe, oh what are they I’m guessing maybe two feet away and I can hear them as I’m sitting talking to you. 

Q. Just the denseness of –

A. Yeah. 

Q. Neat.

A. So I can, now that I’m paying attention to them, I mean I’ve never paid attention to them before, but uhm I use. I just and the kids accepted me you know without my cane.

Q. Yeah.

A. Then I’d go into the school and I ‘d change classes with them all. I was careful but for the first year—

Q. Now, no smacking into people, no making contact with people, 

A. I’m sorry?

Q. Running into people, running into this?

A. A little, but I would just say excuse me. I was very polite, and I didn’t. I wasn’t walking real fast so I didn’t plow into them. I might walk, but usually I could hear them and dodge around them. I used to think I could see, but I really couldn’t see.

Q. Did the guy teach you anything useful?

A. In fourth grade?

Q. Yeah.

A. I can’t remember. I don’t think so cause I hated it so much and he had no personality if he did I don’t remember. I think the person who taught me anything about it was my braille teacher, Ms. Nessle, because she was so good at everything. She could make something relevant. She could make me understand. So, if I learned anything from it, it was from her.  

Q. Nothing specific that you can remember, but just that she was—

A. No. She was a wonderful teacher. She’d take us out on the playground, and you know we’d go climb on everything and.

Q. Neat. So then you said high school or junior high you got a cane again?

A. High school 

Q. High School, what, what brought that about?

A. Oh you know by high school you’ve got to get the Commission for the Blind involved and they decided I needed mobility and I think my parents thought it was a good idea too. I came to see it as more of a good idea. I hadn’t ever traveled in Boston or anything before 

Q. Uh huh.

A. unless I was with my mother or with my aunt or with, you know, people. I was going to say one time in 9th grade I was, you asked me landmarks. I uh, we’d never do this now, but I actually walked to my 9th grade school dance, and it was probably 7:30 at night in June. It wasn’t dark, so my parents let me go. I think they wouldn’t have let me if and they were going to pick me up. So, I went to this dance and I couldn’t find you know the street that I needed to and, and I got a little panicked and I just had missed it. I somehow had missed it, and our, my next door neighbor, the one that shared the driveway with us, drove by. And I said hi Mr. Davidson did I miss King St.? He said, “oh yes dear you’re down to Freemont almost. Oh whoops. So, then he wanted to drive me. I said oh no that’s OK. But I hadn’t found my mailbox, so I was starting to panic. It was night and nobody was around. Well, I didn’t panic, but I was getting a little concerned. 

Q. Sure, sure.

A. Cause I usually when I used to take my doll carriage down the street to go downtown, I was always on the other side of my street 

Q. Ohhhhhh.

A. and so I wasn’t as familiar with this side after King St. See. So. (laugh). 

Q. Wild. That’s just wild. What a life you’ve led. 

A. It’s fun to relive all this. I haven’t thought about it in a while but um. In, in when I was a junior in high school I had this guy uhm, Mr. Smith, Bob Smith. Who was head of mobility practicum stuff at I think he wasn’t the head; he was one of the teachers at Boston College and he was starting to teach me and then he had some of his interns teach me. Well, he made a very bad error. He wanted to take me to High School and practice indoor travel. And I had, I wasn’t Miss Popularity, but I had a group of friends. And a lot of kids liked me and said hi to me and stuff and I was pretty confident in my—I had my little niche; I went around school without a cane. I went to classes by myself um the teachers would, you know, they knew I could do it so and they even stopped putting me in the front row cause they knew I didn’t need that.

Q. that’s cute (light laugh)

A. Cause I asked them once. They said, “is there anything I can do for you?” and I said yes Ms. Harris could you please let me move a couple of seats back. Just because in the one class I wanted to sit in the front row. And she said, “oh what a good idea” She was an American Indian woman, wonderful lady. She just moved me. But one day we were in the school, I didn’t want to be there, but we came upon some kids that I liked, and they saw me with this thing and conversation stopped. And nobody said hi to me. I didn’t say hi to them and I’m fumbling along with this stupid thing, which I’m not used to using so it’s making me awkward. And I wasn’t awkward before and nobody knew what to say and they hastily get out of my way like what’s this. I like. I got away from them, I just. I mean I finished the lesson, and I went home, and I said I will NOT go again and I will not and you can’t make me. My father and I got into a big fight about it “you need mobility” No! I don’t. “Well, you have to learn to go in Boston” and I said and he said, “you have to learn the cane” and I said well he took me to school and my friends were there and nah, nah, na. So, I said I’m not going to go with him. So, he did call I think the guy was embarrassed because my father called and said, “why did you take her to or after school when the kids could be there?” If you’re going to do that for God sakes go when there’s no kids, there. So, he assigned me to um one of the uhm, one of the uhm mobility uhm. Huh, you know the word I’m looking for. Mobility program.

Q. Intern? Student?

A. Yeah. Thank you! Simple word. students. You know he just stayed behind her. But I think, you know, she was like on her last like student teaching. 

Q. Yeah.

A. He assigned her to me, and she was closer to my age, and she would, while we were on our lesson she would talk to me about music and boys and books and you know she took me to the ice cream. When I said I wanted to learn how, I said, I said. Downtown Reading is busy and if I’m going to use this cane. She said “where would you like to go? Let’s not go where I want to go, where would you like to go?” I said I want to learn to get to Winslows. It’s got this restaurant next to, You know that’s attached to it that you can go and get ice cream and stuff. I want to be able to go there by myself. And it was a pretty complicated route. And, and she told me later that Mr. Smith didn’t want her to teach it to me. And she said, “well no, this is what’s motivating her I’m going to teach it to her so she’ll be able to do it”. So, the first day we did it she just gave me directions and I followed them, and I didn’t know where we were going and she said, “you’re now in front of Lowery’s Ice Cream parlor. “ And I said, oh how cool you know so then she, you know I was able to, she made it worth my while. 

Q. Yeah.

A. You know she motivated me and then um after when was this, in ‘69 I had mobility then and I had no, in ‘68 when I graduated high school I had, I went to the Carroll Center to like a college prep course and they had mobility there. And there were a couple of pretty cool mobility instructors who really knew how to relate to kids. 

Q. Yeah.

A. One of their things was, the first thing we’re going to do is clear you. We’re going to teach you how to get from the dorm to the Carroll center. Because we had to stay at this College that was like a few blocks away and you had to cross a couple of busy streets to do it, but once you were cleared you could come and go as you pleased as long as you didn’t miss classes. You didn’t have to wait for the van. 

Q. Nice.

A. So the goal was to be cleared to do it. So, I wanted that so and then I got mobility people to do what I needed to do, what I wanted to do. 

Q. How did that make you feel this new idea of having to get cleared where your whole life had been cleared? I mean…

A. Well I mean it was pretty stupid, but I mean, but I understood. I think I understood why there were busier streets. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. This was Newton, this wasn’t Reading. You know there were, I mean I understood. There were curbs and poles and things that weren’t in my environment when I was growing up. And I was starting to understand that.

Q. How had you learned your way around the schools before that? I mean the new Junior High, the new High school?

A. I just learned it, I just, the first year when I was in seventh grade the teachers all wanted me to be accompanied by somebody. So, we had um two bells there was a warning bell and the teachers knew they had two minutes to wrap things up and then there was the other bell where people passed to classes. And they had me leave at the first bell um with my guide and we would just go to the next class. So, when I was with my guide I would ask, you know, where we were going and stuff. I kind of learned it that way. Cause by 8th grade they realized I really didn’t need that. So, I just would pass classes with everybody else. I guess I just figured it out. And then in High School.

Q. How did they get the message that you didn’t need it anymore? Did you say I don’t need this anymore, or?

A. I’m trying to remember. I think I guess so, well, Reading Schools they were really good to me, they really wanted me to be independent. I think they saw me going around school by myself. Like a couple of times people would forget to take me and I would just go.

Q. Uh huh.

A. It was a pretty small school. I don’t remember how exactly it evolved. But I just figured I didn’t need it anymore and if I was with a friend, talking to a friend, I’d take her arm and we’d walk, but cause it was just easier…

Q. Yeah.

A. …to get through the halls. But, I didn’t consciously, I didn’t leave early and all that. And in High school I think my mother and I walked around. No, you know what happened? In High School um they assigned a senior to walk with me to my classes to sort of teach me how to do things how to get places. And um, I remember my first class, senior Paul that was with me said is anybody else going to Mr. Nisco’s French next period? And this girl said, “I am” and he said, “would you mind taking Marcia?” She didn’t know who I was from a hole in the wall, she was a new kid, and I was new there and we got to be talking and we got to be fast friends and I’m still friends with her today.  Jo Ann Sullivan. Jo Ann Malanie now, but she. She and I just clicked right away so I would just ask her questions about the school. And I just asked different people. I learned  my way around; I asked you know how do you get to these places. I think I walked with people the first couple of weeks and then I figured it out.

Q. Uh huh. Neat.

A. I was always good about figuring it out because I, my again my father had always given me. (end side 1 tape 1)

That was a very good skill my father gave me.

Q. So the making of the mental map. That’s, what does that look like? Or in your head, I don’t know what is it? is it things connecting, or you get a layout, birds’ eye view what?

A. How do I describe it? Um I guess I just I don’t picture it really, although if I’m going to practice traveling somewhere in my head, I’m going to picture myself walking and picture myself getting to the street and seeing what it’s going to be like and see where I am. I sort of imagine in my head. Ummm, but I more know where things are. I guess cognitively.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I use that part of my brain, cause I, to sort of, cause I think with me, instead of going from landmark to landmark I cognitively know where I have to be and I use the landmarks to support that. Does that make any sense?

Q. Um hum. It’s a hard question to answer. It’s a very brainy kind of thing. It’s hard to bring that out. 

A. It’s good it’s making me think about how I do it cause I—

Q. So positionally you would reference something is north of something or south of something?

A. No. I well they tried to teach me that, and that meant nothing to me. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. I they tried to teach me that in Arkansas and I couldn’t do that. I mean I could do it intellectually. I mean they made me. I did it. But, I didn’t. That didn’t help me. Umm, but they kept telling me not to use right and left cause right and left was relative. 

Q. Right.

A. But I knew where, um, if I knew that the parallel street that I was on was a busy street. If I somehow veered and I heard the parallel street at my back I knew I was wrong. You know? 

Q. uh hmm.

A. Or, um I knew that if I was walking somewhere then the stores are on my left. You know I use things relative. I don’t use north, south. I never could do that. Cause north south people also told me is not exact anyway, so you get all screwed up. So, I’d rather use relationships between things. 

Q. I find that myself. Um I have to teach it, I’m one of those people that you know really. And it still, like I was talking to these guys the other day and I’m like this interstate runs east west so the road you’re talking about crosses it so it must be north south. And then they want to say, “oh no but at that point in the, the thing bends so it actually.” I’m like I don’t know actual. All I know (laugh).

A. Are you talking about route 95?

Q. no, 84.

A. 84 yeah, well 84, see 84 actually goes southwest its what it’s really doing you know when you figure it out and, and route 95 that goes through New Haven and Stanford like New London down is actually going east west.

Q. And it’s supposed to be going north south cause it’s an odd number.

A. Exactly and it is going north south sort of, but it’s really going east west. 

Q. That’s not fair at all.

A. Well no it’s not. I just know that you have to get on, I know which way to get on to go to where I’m going.

Q. This is what I know. 

A. You and I speak the same language. 

Q. I think so, I think so.

A. I like that. I have more fights with mobility instructors. I say this north south thing doesn’t help me.

Q. guffaw

A. I don’t do it that way. 

Q. And it should be OK that’s my philosophy. It doesn’t work for everybody; men really like it.

A.  That’s right. I’m going to face the sun because I like it OK? (laugh)

Q. And in the wintertime that’s not due east. You know it’s a little bit south.

A. Right, exactly.

Q. Uhhh hello?

A. Yeah, it’s like wait a minute. I never used it, I discarded it as soon as, you know, and it was funny because in Arkansas oh god I hated that place. The Arkansas- I think it’s called the World Lyon’s World Blind Union. One of those World Services for the Blind or something. It was Arkansas Enterprises for the Blind back then. And I hated it there, what a horrible place. Don’t ever let anybody go there, tell your students that it’s a horrible place.

Q. You went there for what reason?

A. I went because the Commission for the Blind wanted me to get a job. It was um they had those programs for people who worked for the IRS or who work for the civil service. And they put you through rehab and they’re the most condescending people I’ve ever met in my life. 

Q. Yeah. 

A. And the mobility people, you know, tried to make me do north and south and I was like forget it. And finally one of them who was pretty nice she said, you know I had you do a route your way and then I had you do a route north and south way just do it your way cause your way works. You know (laugh)?

Q. hmm (laugh) Finally you got through to one. Do you think, uh and you had at least 3 different mobility instructors more than that or less than that?

A. Oh man. I had more. I had. I probably had well I had Um Mr., poor man, I had Mr. Turner and I had um Mr. Smith and then I had a couple of the students Nancy and Judy they were really nice. That’s probably one real experience but then I had um Ed, I can’t remember his name. Ed was a cool guy who liked music. And Mr. Connors, who were pretty good, those were the guys from B.C. And then I had a couple from Arkansas that were yucky and that’s all I had. Unless you count the guide dog people. But they didn’t really teach mobility. 

Q. So where did you get more or less something out of it. Which instances?

A. That I got more out of it?

Q. B.C Place or?

A. Yeah B.C. was pretty good, I got some the B.C. people, not the actual person, but his students were really good. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Um The two guys from the Carroll center were pretty good.

Q. And what sorts of things did they teach you that you didn’t know or that helped you?

A. Well one of them told me, I had to walk a little faster so that I wouldn’t veer. Or I walk faster, I’d walk straighter I found that that was actually true. And I thanked him for that and uhm one of them really was very good at explaining traffic patterns. Which I had trouble with. 

Q. Neat. So, what do you mean explaining?

A. Explaining the cycles and explaining to me about parallel traffic and perpendicular traffic and when you could go and you know at that, back then you started moving as soon as the parallel traffic you know as soon as you heard it you started going. Now, you’ve got to wait to see if it’s going to turn. 

Q. Yeah.

A. You know it’s all different now. The rules are all changing. They’ve changed. But then you he taught me some really good techniques. Ed and Mr. Connors both they were really pretty their kind of  interchangeable because they were both from the Carroll center but they really taught me some good things about that. 

Q. And um, in terms of did you go on public transit with any of those guys?

A. Uh huh. 

Q. Yeah. Was that-

A. With them because they were right in Newton. And Newton has a good subway system. 

Q. So that was new to you?

A. Yeah. 

Q. or old hat?

A. Um well now, well actually I again I went on the subways with my mother, but I would go with her sighted guide but again I knew where all the subways went. Because it was the same thing about being in a car. I knew where they all went so, I could get where I needed to go but I could tell people which one we needed to find. 

Q. Neat.

A. But then I learned some of the stations. 

Q. So in terms of orienting in a subway station did you, did you already have that under control too? What you used to get oriented, to get- ? I’ve never been to the one in Boston, I don’t know if it’s anything like New York.

A. New York, wow I had a friend who used to live there, he used to take us around and I was in awe of him he just his mobility was phenomenal. 

Q. Yeah?

A. This guy Forrest Hildebrand. I think my husband gave you his name um he’s an amazing traveler. He’d be a really interesting one for you to talk to.

Q. Oh.

A. Um. Cause we talked to him last week and he my husband asked him and he said, oh sure. 

Q. I think he gave me his email and I emailed him. 

A. Yeah oh good.

Q. Yeah.

A. well I hope you talk to him, because his mobility is like the best I’ve ever seen. Um and he knew all the New York subway stations. He just knew where to go. It amazed me. Um Boston, I learned certain stations and now when I go back I get assistance because they’ve all changed and I forget because I’m not there often enough. I don’t remember so I just get help. 

Q. Neat.

A. But I still know, you know,  how far away to stay from the platform and I’m really grateful for the tactile warning strip. Boston has them.

Q. We’re getting them, I mean we have a lot of stations here that have them.

A. Good. That’s good because people have fallen. It’s awful. 

Q. Yeah.

A. It’s easy to get disoriented for a second. That’s the thing about being blind, you’ve got to be on your toes all the time. 

Q. Yeah, that’s right.

A. You can’t daydream. And if you’re thinking about something for just a second you can get in so much trouble. 

Q. Yup.

A. And that’s why it’s so stressful. I read an article by a mobility instructor and it was 6 or 8 times more stressful for a blind person to go for a walk, in a residential area even, just because of all the stress. 

Q. Gosh.

A. I forget where I read that. Somewhere in JVIB years ago. 

Q. I don’t remember that one, but it doesn’t sound like it makes sense. 

A. Yeah. Just cause you can’t daydream for just a second. That’s what my husband said, you know he likes traveling with me because we both are watching out. You know, we both notice different things. 

Q. Yeah. That’s neat so-

A. And he’s a good traveler so I like walking with him cause-.

Q. Yeah, work together.

A. Yeah. That’s another reason about getting a dog I wouldn’t be able to walk with him. It’s really a tough decision for me because I on one hand I really want one and on the other hand maybe I’m just scared again. But it’s a really tough decision.

Q. Well, does it have to be either or, I mean, in terms of ah, I’m sure you go a lot of places in your work where he’s not with you would then maybe use a dog and then when you wanted to walk together the dog could be at home. 

A. Yeah, it’s just that you can’t leave your dog home too much uhm and then there are people who say oh my father always said if you have to use a dog, you’re not good enough. You should just get better with a cane. 

Q. hmm.

A. And I had that hanging over my head for a long time. 

Q. Wow.

A. My father told me one time he used to travel for business a lot. He was in the Chicago airport that was so busy, and he saw this person zipping by with a cane “and he had to look three times before he realized the cane was white”. You know and it was like, I’m supposed to live up to this, this magical expectation. (laugh).

Q. Your dad is a good guy and all, but that’s pretty harsh to make this declaration about—

A. Well, it’s OK, I think he did it, he always told me that I had to be perfect because I couldn’t afford to make mistakes. He backed off on that when I was grown up, like before he died, he mellowed out. He really—he was misguided. I think he wanted me to succeed so badly that he wanted me to just always be the best because he figured it would be hard enough for me anyway, so I needed to be better than anybody. It was a horrible burden to bear. To be better than everybody I couldn’t do it. 

Q. Sure.

A. And I resented it and I resented it and I resented mobility because you know I had trouble with the cane I felt awkward and he really didn’t understand that at all. So, it was hard. He said that he was really ashamed when blind people had to become dependent on a stupid dumb animal. He never liked animals, but its when you have these tapes playing in your head its hard to ignore them and –

Q. Yeah, it’s a rough decision.

A. Yeah, well I have to get over that.

Q. I was thinking on my way home tonight. I was listening to a correspondent from Russia who sounded like a young woman, and I’m like, you know I bet if I was a reporter for the New York Times my parents would be even more proud of me than they are now. (laugh)

A. Yeah.

Q. Do you know like rating jobs on a scale of what my parents would think – I mean I know they’re proud of me. be proud of (laugh)

A. Well they should be. You’re doing good work. They should be proud of you.

Q. Laugh, but you know what I’m saying? It never goes away. 

A. Yes, it’s true.

Q. I have a fine job. I know I could get even more praise if I was a New York Times reporter (laugh). I don’t even want to be a reporter.

A. Yeah. Yeah. Where did you get your mobility training? 

Q. I did my masters at The University of Texas at Austin and then I went to Vanderbilt for my doctorate where uh Hill was of Hill and Ponder. I don’t know if you know that book? It’s the bible in O&M.

A. Um Ponder I know that name, Hill, yeah I know I’ve heard of it.

Q. We call it the Blue Book. 

A. They’ve written articles for JVIB I mean their names.

Q. Well Everett Hill is dead now unfortunately. He died actually when I was going to school there. And his wife Mary Maureen Snook-Hill now is in Canada at Mohawk College. She moved from Nashville to there. Pervis Ponder has always been in Florida State. He’s been there forever.

A. Where are you from?

Q. I grew up in New Orleans.

A. Oh New Orleans, wow. You don’t sound southern at all. 

Q. Everybody says that. I don’t know what that is.

A. You really don’t. But isn’t that funny, your parent’s tapes.

Q. It is, they do. You know they did a lot for us. Obviously, we’re not slackers. 

A. That’s right.

Q. So, they did something right.

A. That’s right, they did something right. Exactly. They sure did. 

Q. So how many canes do you own?

A. Now? Um 2 or 3 I can’t I know I have one extra I may have two extra. Actually, I just gave one away to one of my friends who’s a teacher of the visually impaired in touch with people down in Honduras and they’re trying to teach mobility. So, they wanted canes. 

Q. Ah.

A. I think I had three and I kept one extra, so I gave her, I gave her my long cane, which I never used, and one of my folding. So, I had four, I’m down to the two. 

Q. So one is rigid, and one is a folding? 

A. No, they’re both folding. 

Q. With a big, round rolling marshmallow tip. Uhm how many different types of mobility tools have you tried? You’ve tried the dog, canes, 

A. I’ve tried the sonic glasses, they were cool. The sonic guide. 

Q. Oh yeah?

A. I liked it. 

Q. What did you like about it-

A. Um I’ve never owned one, but I thought it was cool cause you could be warned of things coming. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I liked that. But then they stopped making it. I haven’t heard of one in years. It’s like it’s not around anymore. 

Q. So did it make a noise, or did it vibrate?

A. It made a noise, you could put it on, the thing I didn’t like about it, is people thought you couldn’t hear cause you had these big things over your ears. You could hear. It made like a noise. A higher pitched noise and the closer you got to an object the noise got lower and it was a different kind of noise for different things. Like concrete you know something hard was a rrr—rrr—sound. In bushes it was kind of like a shwu, shu sound.

Q. Wild.

A. It was really kind of cool. Something to do light hitting the sensor or something. The shadow. But it was, I liked it. I tried it in 70—no, 80 or 82. 

Q. Neat. But, expensive, didn’t want to buy one?

A. It was expensive. It was like, it was like, oh I don’t know 2,000 dollars. I didn’t like the idea that people were shouting at me because they thought I couldn’t hear. And that I could see somethings I had these glasses on. 

Q. Wild.

A. Because the glasses were like the reflectors. They were the things that they were the driving force of the thing. 

Q. Wild. So, you got this whole different reaction from people. 

A. Exactly.

Q. That’s wild. 

A. I kind of liked it. I got to try the prototype at the V.A. because the VA was field testing it. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. But they didn’t seem to last long. It was from Australia or New Zealand or something. 

Q. Yeah. No. I think they’re still are trying to do something with that. There’s a whole bunch of different ones you know that are out there. But you know it’s the same sort of thing is it worth 2000 dollars. Would it be adding that much to your traveling? For someone to own one? And at this point not many people have said yes. 

A. Yeah, it doesn’t help you crossing streets. That’s the thing. It helps you walking down the sidewalk. It does not help you cross streets. 

Q. And maybe it’s neat to fill in maybe some of the area. Like maybe you wouldn’t have known that bush was there. Or you would have or whatever. But you get maybe a fuller picture of your environment?

A. Maybe. 

Q. That you don’t necessarily need? I don’t know. Wild. So, how do you decide which cane you use? Do you have a.

A. Um I got a new California cane last summer at an ACB convention and its um lightweight but sturdy. So that’s what I’ve been using pretty much exclusively. 

Q. uh hm. How do you get to and from work?

A. Well, I just changed jobs so um my old job I took the bus to, you know it was a pain. It was an hour and a half each way. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And now I get a ride cause the school system I live in is not near, um I work in is not near any bus lines. So, I get a ride to work.

Q. Um how did you make that arrangement?

A. Um, I well one of my jobs. Um I have the aid in the school that I work in lives right near me. So, she offered and um the other, my other job where I have to travel about, it’s a one day a week job. And it’s about 50 miles away to just get there, my friend who’s retired wanted to work a little bit so I pay her she works with me one day a week. 

Q. Neat. And if your aid isn’t going to be able to make it into work do you have any?

A. Um I have a really good relationship with the cabs that come. See I’m living half a week with my mother to help her because she’s taking care of my 90-year-old aunt. And so I’m working 3 days a week up there and then I come back and work Fridays in Connecticut. So, I have a good relationship with the cab company up in Reading because it’s a small town. And they really do believe in quality service. Not like the cities they don’t care. Cause the one thing about New York, anywhere you go you can find a cab like nothing in seconds flat.

Q. Yeah transportation is just a dream up here.

A. Oh it’s wonderful. It is in Boston too. 

Q. Is it?

A. Yeah.

Q. That’s good.

A. I miss it terribly. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I left in 78 thought I’d be back in 5 years, I’m still here. 

Q. Wow. So in terms of the bus, do you have any tips or strategies that you would pass along um for not getting off at the wrong place?

A. Well you have to, sitting behind the driver is a myth. They think, “sit behind me” well they can’t see you behind them. 

Q. Right.

A. You’ve got to sit across from them. 

Q. Ah hah.

A. You’ve got to keep asking them where you are. You’ve got to pay attention to the turns like in my old place before I married Steve, it was great cause I lived, once we went up this huge hill, and turned left and I know I was at my stop. You couldn’t miss it. So, I didn’t even have to tell them where I was getting off. Cause I just knew. That’s a dream though. But here. When we get to our street because I know the number of turns, you turn west on north street then there’s a little jog that you go around. Then I have to say I need to get off on Carrolton Street. Then they say, “Which one’s that?” and then I say Right across from the school, cause they don’t know. 

Q. I know they don’t. I’ve heard that so much. It’s like bus drivers don’t know the names of the streets on their route. They just see the sign—

A. No, they sure don’t. They know the main one’s, but they don’t know the little. 

Q. That’s wild. And they drive it everyday. 

A. Yep, you’d think they would know. It’s weird isn’t it, Grace?

Q. I’m learning so much. I’m like I never would have suspected that bus drivers didn't know. I guess they don’t.

A. No, they don’t. 

Q. (laugh) What about um, have you ever been let off at the wrong place by a bus?

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. So what do you do?

A. Oh man I, I, I, you just, I scream in frustration and cry and then you just have to wait for the next bus. I mean there’s nothing else you can do. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I’ve had buses sail by me when I’ve had to get places. 

Q. So they didn’t see you at the bus stop?

A. Either they didn’t see me, or they just chose to ignore me, who knows? Probably didn’t see me. If you’re not in the exact right spot, you know, and if it’s not a Sunday in June they’re not going to pick you up. 

Q. Have you ever been disoriented?

A. Um oh yeah.

Q. What sort of strategies do you use when you’re disoriented?

A. Try. Well, I try to go back and find something familiar or find something I can recognize. Or, you know, I, I wait for someone to come and ask for assistance if I’m really lost. Um one thing I had the dog from Fidelco last time she crossed me, and we veered. So, I didn’t realize it and I was totally disoriented. That was a little weird.

Q. And then what happened?

A. Then I just walked a little ways with her and I realized I, and I turned around and I came back and I found the main street and I could hear the main street so I went back to that and then I knew where I was. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I knew what had happened. So, I just used my skills to figure it out. 

Q. Neat. How do you feel about traveling alone to unfamiliar places?

A. I don’t mind it. I’ll do it. It’s more fun to go with somebody. But, I love to travel so, I don’t mind. I know I can ask for help. It used to be that um I wouldn’t want to because I felt like I was inadequate if I couldn’t figure it out myself. I didn’t want to appear blind. This stupid myth you think you can hide it. You have a cane. You’re reading a braille book.

Q. Laugh.

A.  I thought I could fool people too, by not using a cane too and then, cause I used to try that in places I’d would go and just say I don’t need a cane, even though I knew how to use one, but cause I didn’t want to look blind. Then somebody said to me, you’re reading braille idiot. I’m like oh yeah. So, I realized how stupid I was. 

Q. Laugh - No, I just love your attitude. Its great. How would you prepare for travel to an unfamiliar place?

A. Well, if I knew someone that lived there, I would call and talk to them. If I didn’t know someone, I’d just uh. It depends on where I’m going. If I’m going to meet someone for an appointment you know I’ll just, try to get a directions as I can. But most of the people that can see just don’t know anything about giving directions “well it’s right down, you know it’s a right down the street uhm a little past the police station” You know they don’t know. 

Q. What kind of directions would you like to get?

A. Um I’d like to get 3rd opening on the right, you know, go in veer left find the stairway. There are four steps up if you go to the one where there are six steps up, you’re at the wrong entrance. You know that’s what I want. (laugh) but you never get that. You get that from another blind person. 

Q. Right. 

A. If you want to know how to get somewhere you call a blind person who travels real well or you call a mobility instructor. You call someone who knows how to do it. 

Q. So what about airports?

A. Well, I love to fly so um - I usually. I don’t mind getting help. I just hate it when they make you go in a wheelchair. I, believe me, I just refuse. Sorry. I’m not doing that. They just.

Q. They just come up to you with a wheelchair and they’re like you have to ride in this?

A. Yeah. Like I can walk. One time we were in Chicago and um and this lady was insisting, you can’t walk, you can’t walk it’s too far. And I had like an hour between. So, I said, yes I can. And I took my cane and started walking and she starts screaming so I grab her arm and I started running through the airport, towing her with me.

Q. Laugh

A. It’s like you think I can’t walk fast? She said, “you can’t walk fast enough.” Well that just incensed me. She ran through that airport. She was—well that poor lady, she was just a little overweight, she was pretty winded by the time she got through with me. And I said don’t tell me I can’t walk fast enough, OK?

Q. Yeah. Have you ever been asked to wait in a room between flights?

A. Only once. uhm only once, it’s kind of weird. Actually twice, once it was cause of a plane, the delay. And actually, we got to be on a comfortable couch and we got to drink soda and stuff where you know  out in the milieu we wouldn’t have got to do that. That  wasn’t so bad, we were tired. Um another time it was kind of like, we’re going to take you in this room, and you can just wait here, it depends on their attitude. If they’re condescending ya hate it-- but if they’re nice and friendly, it’s not so bad.

Q. Right.

A. I can get along with anybody as long as they’re friendly and don’t treat me like I’m stupid. I really am pretty easy going. It takes a lot to get me mad. Once I get mad, forget it I’m gone. You’ve lost me. It takes a long time to get me there.  

Q. What about a brand-new hotel? Any sort of strategy that you have for getting around that place?

A. Um I try to put either, I try to label my room with a braille number or even something with my name, that I bring a label with me to put it on the door, so I can find my room. 

Q. Neat.

A. So I don’t have to worry about because some of them you can’t read the numbers. 

Q. Oh so they have braille but its not legible?

A. Well a lot of hotels aren’t accessible yet. There are raised numbers but sometimes, and that’s good, but sometimes there are numbers that are like just smooth, you know you can’t read them. So, I try to bring something to put on the door. And ask them to please tell the cleaning people not to take it off because it’s my landmark. I try, I’ve tried to at least get, I know where the front desk is, so I go down there, and I ask where’s the restaurant. Then I usually figure out where is the restaurant is from the elevator. But if I want to go somewhere unfamiliar, I just go to the front desk and say, could you please direct me or may I have some assistance getting there. I used to spend hours figuring things out because I was too proud, but not anymore.

Q. Yeah.

A. I guess because I’m old. 

Q. So figuring things out means sort of?

A. fumbling around and you know, going the wrong way and trying to piece it all together. If you go the wrong way too much that’s when I get disoriented and I can’t remember where I was to start over to find out the right way. 

Q. Yeah.

A. When you’ve gone the wrong way too much.  

Q. Yeah. It’s hard to retrace your steps if you didn’t know exactly which way you were going to start with.

A. Yeah. So, it’s like I prefer to at least like have an idea of where I’m going.

Q. How do you establish your position in the environment?

A. What do you mean like?

Q. Um, how do you know where you are?

A. um. Do you mean outside, inside?

Q. Yeah, I mean both outside and inside.

A. Um I just know where I am in relation to either a building or a landmark or a street. Is that want you’re looking for?

Q. Yeah, neat. Do you use, have you used maps of any kind?

A. Maps don’t’ help me. I’ve looked at them um and I really can’t relate that to me. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. Unless I sort of walk use my finger, you know, pretend it’s me and walk down the street on the plastic map and turn where I’ve got to go. But it doesn’t help me because maps aren’t to scale and it doesn’t, I don’t know I’ve never wanted to use one. I did um have a, the National Braille Press, a long time ago made up a map of the T system in Massachusetts. And I did, I got that, and I did purchase one from San Francisco. It’s a t map of where all the different BART and Munie stops are cause I like San Francisco. I thought if I ever went back, I could use it for a reference. 

Q. Great city yeah. And so did you like, I mean that was helpful? In terms of what?

A. Yeah, a little bit, yeah just to know which line went where and you know that worked out OK. 

Q. Where you able to make plans based on those maps?

A. ummm, rough plans yeah. I could figure out how many stops it was. You know from one place to the other. And I could figure out where the stops, where the change, where the transfer points were. 

Q. Are they bulky?

A. Are they bulky? Yeah, they’re books.

Q. So it’s not like you’re going to carry—

A. No. You have to, you look at it at home and you write down or you remember what you need to know from there.

Q. So that’s not very.

A. Yeah, you can’t just pull it out and look at in the middle of your route. 

Q. When you’re lost when you need the map (laugh).

A. I know, it’s true. So now there’s a new thing. Atlas Speaks that Arkanstone has and Strider that you can do it through the computer that you can type in your address and type in where you want to go and it will tell you how to get there.

Q. Have you done that?

A. Um a little bit, yeah because I have it on our computer so, my husband and I fooled around with it. We haven’t tried to use it yet for anything. 

Q. Well you know what, uh, someone was telling me that Atlas speaks one? 

A. Yeah.

Q. She uses it to give sighted people directions to places. 

A. Cool. 

Q. (laugh)

A. That’s good.

Q. She pulls it out and I don’t know to drivers or what have you

(end tape 1 side 2)

Q.  What one thing that happens frequently when you’re traveling that you like the least?

A. That I like the least…uh trying to find your bus in a line of five busses 

Q. Yeah.

A. that are all idling and you have to run from one to the other and ask which bus is this and you’re afraid your bus is going to pull out around the others and take off. I hate that. 

Q. So is there anything you can do about it?

A. I usually, you know those buses don’t wait and this is after work, and I was trying to get home and I just didn’t want to wait another 40 minutes for the next bus. I usually grab a pedestrian for assistance, cause there’s no way to tell. Some of the bus drivers don’t even want to tell you. And you waste valuable time trying to find the end of one bus, the beginning of the other, trying to find the door of that bus. 

Q. Yeah, so just grab somebody.

A. Yeah, seconds are ticking away, and I want to get home .

Q. What do you want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?

A. Come up and say “excuse me may I be of assistance? Or May I help you?” Don’t grab me by the arm, don’t you know, don’t pick up your cane. 

Q. Yeah.

A. You know, don’t suddenly start pulling you. Just walk up to somebody and say, you know “may I be of some help? or whatever.” 

Q. So does that happen?

A. Yes, there are some people who are really good about it, but also blind people need not to snap, because I see people who say, “no, I’m fine rrrr rrr. No, leave me alone!” You know and then people, you know the sighted person is not going to go up to another blind person. And those people that snap like that don’t realize that other people need assistance and next time it might be them. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And so, if you don’t need help, you know I always say aw no thanks I’m fine but thank you very much for asking. Cause I always, unless I’m in a bad mood, and I’ve been, I’m sure I’ve been snappish a couple of times cause I’ve had a bad day I’m not perfect by any means. But I try really hard to be cognizant of people’s feelings because you know then people will help me and hopefully, they’ll ask the next person who might really need help. And when people have helped me, I really try to thank them and say you know you really were a big help because I would have missed my bus, or this is a hard street to cross so crossing with me really made my life easier. I try to give them the reason why they helped, that why I appreciated the help instead of just saying thank you. Thank you is a great thing to do, but I try to go one step further again because I want to foster the cooperation between us, and sighted people cause the way it’s crazy out there now. 

Q. So it happens a lot. I mean people coming up when you’re walking down the street over and over again asking, or pulling your cane or not asking or grabbing your arm?

A. There are sometimes times that it doesn’t happen at all there are some days it’ll happen 4 or 5 times. 

Q. How do you locate someone when you want assistance?

A. I stop and I listen. I might hear somebody coming and I say excuse me. Sometimes people will ignore you and sometimes they’ll say “yes” You know sometimes they don’t know English. I feel more vulnerable now because I think you know I can’t size up the person coming down the street. 

Q. Yeah.

A. You know if their eyes look shifty or something I wouldn’t ask them, you know but if they look friendly, businessman or woman you know professional looking pretty smart. That’s who I would ask.

Q. But you don’t have that luxury.

A. No. I hear these footsteps and I’ve got to take potluck. And oftentimes it works and sometimes it’s like a disaster. 

Q. Like anything in particular come to mind?

A. Um. Yeah I don’t remember the details, but one time I was trying to go some where and the person was sure he knew where I wanted to go and it wasn’t where I wanted to go at all. And I can’t remember the specifics of where I was trying to go and where he thought I wanted to go but it was something, something where I don’t know whether I was trying to go. I wish I could remember the details, but I know it was a thing where I was going one place and I told him I needed to get to one place. I was looking for a certain I think it was going to a doctor’s appointment. And the guy had the idea that I was going to a different building, Oh I know. I told him the address of where I was going and he said “oh you couldn’t be going there its not you know, there aren’t doctors in there you’re going to this building”. And I said, sir I know my doctor, I know my address. “No, no, you can’t be going there.” He took me to the other building. That was like, you know 3/4s of the block down the street. And we’re walking and I’m like sir, this is wrong, I was right near where I wanted to be. “No, you weren’t” You know, so.

Q. So was there no way to really get out of that situation?

A. I finally just said, I think I just said I’ll take it from here, thank you and you know I just sort of went back and asked somebody else, but it was really bizarre. Cause he was one of those kind of guys that kind of grabbed me and was kind of forceful and you know when you’re by yourself you don’t want these guys to do something crazy so I didn’t want to offend him.

Q. Right. So um what kinds of things do you use as landmarks?

A. um streets you know traffic, changes in the sidewalk, um basically those are the major ones, then other ones depending on where I am. But, You know like changes in, like I know that pretty soon I should be coming to a grassy area and if I don’t I know I’m wrong. 

Q. Yeah. 

A. Um I use traffic a lot to orient myself. 

Q. The traffic volume? Traffic direction?

A. Yeah, volume and make sure it’s where it should be, like you know on my left side and if I you know that way I can feel if I’m veering. If I’m getting too close to the street. 

Q. Neat. Have you ever been injured when traveling?

A. Once. I was with my friend Bruce who you’re going to talk to in New York. You can ask him about this. And we were sort of dating at the time. And we had gotten this bottle of wine. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. And we were traveling back to his dorm. And, I mean he’s a phenomenal like I said a phenomenal traveler and he had his dog and I had my cane out you know sort, I never would walk with anybody without having my cane out because I don’t expect the dog to look out for me. That’s not fair. 

Q. Right.

A. The dog is there to look out for him. Um even though they try to, but um the dog is really good trying to look out for the person on the other end, cause I used to take people and they try to look out for that person too, But that’s not really fair. But anyway. 

Q. No. yeah.

A. We’re walking and we had the light, and we were walking and it was somewhere near Columbia and all of a sudden I was on the ground. I go wait a minute we must have gotten hit and it turned out this guy went right through the light. I, I- we weren’t hurt, I had just like pulled a muscle in my ankle 

Q. Whoa.

A. so it was hard to walk for a couple of days, but I really wasn’t. You know we could have been hurt really badly. I think ironically we were carrying this bag and it sort of shielded our chests. 

Q. Wow.

A. It was kind of neat because in New York like six people you know came over and a couple of them had seen the license plate, so Bruce called it in and it turned out it was a stolen car. 

Q. Whoa.

A. The guy was trying to get away from the cops. That’s why he went right through the light he didn’t see he didn’t care. He just plowed through the crowd and kept going. It was a miracle we weren’t hurt.

Q. Wow. Really.

A. New Yorkers are really cool. You know people have this, this feeling about New York and how mean New Yorkers are. But I think they’re very proud of their city because when one time when I was going to Stonehill College I went to New York to visit my friend. And I had to meet another friend to go home, and she said to meet me at a certain subway station. And I guess I misunderstood her, and I went to the station that I thought she meant and she didn’t come, and she didn’t come, and she didn’t come, and she didn’t come. 

Q. Right.

A. And I was a little panicked because I don’t know New York at all.  

Q. Right.

A. And I waited for her for 4 hours and she didn’t come. And finally, I guess I called her at home, and she had been waiting at what she thought was the subway station that we needed to be at. And she had gone home in frustration, and we had to go home and do exams. And she was really mad, because you we had. So finally, we figured out which station we should meet at but by then we decided we should do it the next day. Well in the meantime, I’m stranded in New York. And I had a friend who lived in a different part of New York who I met at Guide dog school, but I didn’t have my dog at the time, she had just, she had been hit um a couple of months earlier. So, I called this guy Jim, and I said James I need to, can I stay with you cause I’m stranded in New York and I don’t know what I’m going to do. And he told me step by step clearly how to get to his, his place. And these people in New York took, one of them took me one leg of the journey. And she wouldn’t leave me until she handed me off to somebody else to take me to the next leg and he handed me off to somebody else. 

Q. Wow. Yeah.

A. One of them wanted to take me home for soup. You know, it was really, really cool. And a couple of years ago, my husband and I went to see the capital steps um in New York and we get off the train and this guy wanted to know where we’re going. Well there’s construction let me help you around it and we told him we were going to this certain theater and he said “oh you know it’s a nice day I’ll walk you up there.” We were going to take a cab he said “nah” we had a real nice walk. We walked sighted guide up there it was great.

Q. Well I’ve heard that from a lot of people about New York and what I find about New Yorkers is they’re very direct and that can put people off especially if you’re from a place where you’re never direct with anybody, especially strangers. And but yet, if you just stand there for 2 seconds with a map or your mouth hanging open even a little bit or something (laugh) someone will come up to you and say, “do you need any help?” Where you going. 

A. It’s nice. Yeah. I think New Yorkers are proud of their city.

Q. Well public transportation can be confusing, and I think everybody knows that you know.

A. Everyone knows what?

Q. They know that public transportation can be confusing.

A. Yeah.

Q. And locating where you need to be to get what - I mean I was just in New Jersey today at the Path station and I was looking for someone I was supposed to meet her, it had a very similar ring to what you were just describing because she left. 

A. Oh no.

Q. It was a student so I had to really get mad at her (laugh), but anyway, so I’m like roaming around and this guy who like worked there was like “can I help you?” and I’m like no, no I’m just looking for a friend. He said, “I can’t help you there.”

A. Where did you find her?

Q. She actually went to the place where we were supposed to meet at the station and go together, you know for an internship. She when there, but um so it was no big deal.

A. You figured that out.

Q. Yeah, after waiting around. So, it was OK, but it didn’t look. I like us to go together and she just overreacted a little. I was there. She gave me a bad landmark. We worked through it. Obviously I’m still not completely over it.

A. I wouldn’t be either. That would make me really mad. Oh God. You left!?! What do you mean you left?

Q. I couldn’t believe it.

A. Excuse me?

Q. I wasn’t even late.

A. Yeah, I know gosh that’s funny.

Q. I was there early. It was a snowy day too.

A. Yeah it was snowy here too, how much snow did you guys get?

Q. Well I live up in the country so we got a little more than the city so I’d say we got a good three inches.

A. Oh OK that’s probably all we got. They didn’t know how the storm was going to track, they didn’t know if we were going to get socked or only get a little.

Q. Yeah, so. I mean they were predicting six inches, so I don’t think we got anywhere near that.

A. Yeah. I don’t think we did either. I guess I’ll have to go to school tomorrow, too bad.

Q. Laugh.

A. I was looking forward to a day off.

Q. Oh they gave everybody the day off here. 

A. Oh wow.

Q. Except for me, but 

A. Oh wow, why not you?

Q. Cause I work in New York City where they didn’t give the day off. 

A. Oh.

Q. See up in the country everybody can just freak out and stay home.

A. Oh.

Q. It’s alright.

A. In the country they’re supposed to be more used to snow.

Q. Yeah! (laugh) it makes no sense. Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?

A. I belong to AER, I belong to ACB. Those are the major.

Q. Neat to you have a role in any of them?

A. Um I am, I am working with um, because I’m a teacher of the visually impaired I’m working with Library of Congress to help with revise the National Literary braille competency test.

Q. Ohh. 

A. Um I am immediate past president of the Connecticut chapter of ACB. 

Q. Neat.

A. Um which is the Connecticut Council of the Blind, CCB. I am first vice president of National Association of  Blind teachers which is an affiliate of ACB. I’m on the board of Library Users of America, which is another affiliate of ACB. 

Q. Wow. And what sorts of things does ACB, CCB and what sorts of things do in Connecticut?

A. Um advocacy, outreach, that type of stuff. Legislative stuff. We’re trying to get a Braille bill passed here in Connecticut. 

Q. Neat! And AER?

A. AER I’m a member and I like it, but I haven’t gotten involved as an officer or anything. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I think they do good things.

Q. Now what do you think is going on with the differences in and among – It’s really NFB is on one end 

A. Yeah.

Q. and AER/ACB are closer together.

A. Yeah they are.

A. I think NFB, my husband calls them the Noisy Fussing Blind. 

Q. Yeah he told me that (laugh).

A. Or something else, Nasty fuming Blind, That’s right (speaking to her husband) Noisy Flaming blind. And cause they just want to flame and not work with anybody. They’re always looking for the worst in everything. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Like if something goes wrong, well they’re out to get us. They don’t want us to be equal. I think there are some people who don’t want that, but a lot of people are happy to work with you if you just tell them how or show them or be nice to them. ACB and AER are more want to work with people.

Q. Yeah.

A. ACB and NFB it’s like, it’s too bad there are a lot of smart people in NFB, but Dr. Jernigan was kind of twisted. NFB is a whole cult 

Q. It is.

A. and it’s kind of like you know they call people and get all these donations and they have these huge grants and so all their chapters can do all these things, and ACB doesn’t do that. And we don’t have all this money so, in a lot of circles NFB is viewed as the only organization of the blind and its not. It’s kind of like republicans and democrats. Which way you want you know which way you think. But there are some NFB people I really like you know when they’re just out on their own. They’re not part of the NFB crap.

Q. Truth be told I have talked to a lot people from many different organizations, and you can, you just know as soon as you start talking to an NFBer that they’re NFB.

A. Yeah, you sure do.

Q. they have all these buzz words.

A. Yeah, they sure do, buzz words NFB is doing this, NFB is doing that.

Q. Well even if they don’t mention NFB right away. Its pretty soon in to it.

A. Right, you know.

Q. But even before you know for certain, there are certain things.

A. Yeah you do, yeah you do.

Q. But there are things that you know to be true about the system. Society laying over the rehab system that I would have rebelled against and in many ways, we have to, you know, changes had to be made maybe there are some things that they were doing that really gave a wake-up call. I’d like to find a way that give them some credit, but then to try and pull them back a little, center them a little. Use that power for good.

A. Yeah. You’re right. 

Q. I say yes, I will be the first to admit yes, people did OK. You woke a lot of people up in some ways, but there are other ways to go about it, there are other ways. For now to move forward. 

A. Yep. There sure are.

Q. And they’re not totally right about everything.

A. That’s right. I was so disgusted when they had that whole thing about the exit rows. They were stopping flights at airports out on the runway.

Q. What?

A. Oh you hadn’t heard about that? 

Q. Just a little bit,

A. Yeah, back in like 85 there was all that hoopla about should blind people be able to sit in the exit row? Well personally I don’t want to sit in the exit row because I might, if I can’t move fast enough, or I can’t figure out what’s going on fast enough I may be responsible for somebody’s death. 

Q. Yeah.

A. But they, it’s the principle of the thing for some of them. How dare you tell us we can’t. And this business of blindness being a nuisance is a crock. I wish it was only a nuisance. It’s a lot more than that. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I mean I’m pretty well adjusted and I do what I have to do, and I don’t think about being blind. I don’t say poor pitiful me, but it’s not, it’s a lot more than a nuisance. 

Q. In your words it’s a?

A. Well, it’s something you have to live with. It’s a disability like any other disability, um that I have to find ways to cope with and be successful in spite of. 

Q. Yeah.

A. But it’s also you know it is a part of me and I hate when people say they’re disabled because they have Oh I don’t know I don’t want to caste dispersions on—

Q. I know exactly what you’re talking about, people who wear glasses, say I’m blind when I take these off.

A. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, or people, because of ADA, which I think is a good thing. But there are, just people that are having—People that are going for therapy are suddenly disabled. 

Q. Oh right.

A. You know people that are, oh I don’t know, overweight are disabled now. And come on.

Q. Right, they want to use ADA to get whatever, and it wasn’t really designed—

A. Yeah, I hate that. 

Q. Yeah, that’s a whole nother thing, I mean how do you think ADA impacted you, I mean do you notice a difference before and after its passage?

A. No, not really. Um I think there’s, you know what kills me? They put the braille signs up, prominently displayed for sighted people to see them.

Q. (laugh) that’s a great way to put it.

A. It just makes  me crazy. They didn’t ask any blind people. You put the sign near the door handle so you can trail the way, find the door, and look and see what room it is, you don’t put it underneath the print. Oh, I hate that. And people have no idea. I tell them and they go, “ohh, oh man!”

Q. (laugh) It’s true. I remember when they first started putting them up, I was like how are you supposed to find this? Are you supposed to scrub the wall clean?

A. Well yeah. You’ve got to grope around for it. Usually, it’s head level for me. 

Q. Aye.

A. You know “what are you doing ma’am are you our new cleaning lady? Wiping the walls off?” No, I’m looking for braille signs. 

Q. Laugh – trying to read.

A. Or my favorite one is the talking elevator in the parking garage. Gee can I drive in here?

Q. Oh that’s right. I didn’t even get it right away. (laugh). What about the ATM machine, where you can find all about who made the machine, but you still don’t know what it says on the screen.

A. I know and they tell you very carefully which button to push, which thing, but it doesn’t talk. I saw a talking one in Chicago. I loved it. 

Q. did it work good?

A. Yeah. And now I guess California is getting them with some bank. I forget the name of the bank—Wells Fargo I think. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. They’re getting them with them and I’m thrilled. ACB was a big help in that.

Q. is that right?

A. yeah.

Q. Do you have to wear earphones with it or?

A. I don’t know. In Chicago we didn’t. It just said “Hello, welcome to field something bank” It was like Oh hi. It was great. 

Q. Well, now what about your code number?

A. Well it didn’t, it said, “please enter your password” and it didn’t talk things back as you punched the buttons or anything.

Q. Oh.

A. As long as you knew your code you were OK. And then it said “thank you” I guess it would know if you do an invalid code, because your card, it wouldn’t match your card. 

Q. Right. So at least it’s not giving out your information.

A. Oh no and if it’s wrong it say, “please try again” You know if it’s still wrong it just spits your card back.

Q. But then you have braille on the number pad.

A. Exactly, you find it so it’s very cool. So, I like that. That’s a good thing from the ADA.

Q. Well you know the elevators at the Lighthouse, I have two jobs. I also run a program out of the Lighthouse.

A. What for mobility?

Q. Yeah, it’s actually for paraprofessionals.

A. Oh well cool.

Q. We train them to assist the professionals and  all the elevators talk and they say 11th floor turn right and invariably I’ll push the button, I’ll go on the door opens, it tells me it’s the 6th floor, I’m going to the 1st floor, and I go to walk off. I mean I totally don’t even hear it anymore. And you feel so silly because you’re just not, so used to hearing it where when you first heard it you always like, wow I hear it, I hear it, I hear it. So that’s really true. Everything can become a part of an environment. You know what I’m saying? It totally melds and you don’t even notice it to like even correct yourself quick enough. I still have to look around and go, oh this isn’t the floor I wanted to get off. Or sometimes I just keep going, because they look so much alike that if I wasn’t going. And then I get so embarrassed I take the stairs the rest of the way. (laugh).

A. Oh yeah, I would too. The one thing with elevators is when I was in an AER convention once in Montreal in ‘82 there were no signs on the floors and I had to go somewhere. I had to guess. I didn’t know where I was. There was no signs anywhere. 

Q. Oh wow.

A. AER conventions they’re not very friendly. I find. I wrote a letter. In 87 I went to Los Angeles, and I wanted hotel orientation, and the guy was so condescending and then when I wanted help to find rooms and like “well didn’t you have orientation? Like these professionals were so professional it was like I’m this case study in blindness here. I was really turned off I wrote a letter, 

Q. Good.

A. and it sparked a lot of discussions about how to make it more friendly to visually impaired people. That’s a good thing. I know I wasn’t the only person that wrote a letter, I was very upset. I haven’t been to AER since. The regional I have but not national.

Q. You know, I know that uh within the profession there are people who don’t necessarily belong in the profession.

A. That’s right there are people who hate, well not hate, there are people who really are very uncomfortable with blind people and don’t treat them as people. Who treat them as objects. 

Q. It’s very strange.

A. It is very strange you can pick them out a mile away too.

Q. It’s really the role. It’s supposed to be the role of the university programs to say you really don’t belong in this field. You try to get them in the interview process, but you know throughout the program. We’ve lost a couple. It’s worked out well. Either you help them to realize, or they realize on their own that this isn’t the field for them. But then there’s a lot of places that hire you if you’re not, without a university training and you know there’s no licensure, there’s no, nothing to keep that from happening. I don’t know.

A. I don’t know. It’s like you wish you could have a license before people could have kids. You wish you could have a license—

Q. Well, my hairdresser has got a license and you know that’s just hair.

A. Well exactly, well exactly.

Q. Well I’m pretty glad he does, because he’s doing all kinds of stuff with chemicals.

A. Exactly, but you wish there was some way to stop some of this stuff. Then people ask about ATMs and you can drive up to ATMs and why is that in braille? 

Q. Yeah I know.

A. You know if you can drive. Well it’s because these machines are interchangeable, you know, they put them where they need to put them. And they all have braille on them, nobody understands that. 

Q. No I know. It’s true.

A. My friend’s mother, in fact my student here, his mother wrote to the paper all out—well no, she didn’t write to the paper, this guy wrote to the paper and she wrote back and explained. But she asked me, “why do they do that?” I said, Karen the machines are interchangeable, when one breaks down, they move one. “Oh yeah”.

Q. they don’t make special braille machines. I think that’s slowly circulating, but when I first saw it too it makes you laugh.

A. Yeah oh, I know. 

Q. I just think of the blind driver (laugh).

A. I’d love to drive, it would be great. 

Q. Yeah, I bet.

A. I’ve tried it, you know, on dirt roads and stuff. 

Q. Oh yeah?

A. Yeah.

Q. What’d you drive?

A. Oh my father’s car you know he just, you know I just went very slowly. It was fun.

Q. So were you had your pedals and the steering wheel.

A. yes. I had somebody, I think my father in the car with me. I just went very slowly, and it was fun. Slow maybe 3 miles an hour or five miles an hour. Very slowly so I wouldn’t hit anything, and he could grab the wheel if he needed to. He was right on top of me, it was still fun.

Q. You could actually go maybe to a big parking lot or a field where you could go faster.

A. Well parking lots are hard because you’ve got to keep turning and backing up. This was like a dirt road to somebody’s camp. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, I actually got the experience of driving down to the camp like a half a mile. It was pretty fun I was 16. At least I drove when I was 16. That was a pretty good thing. 

Q. That’s cool. Did you ever go skiing or anything like that?

A. I went cross-country skiing, which I kind of liked, but I haven’t done it in a long time. I know it’s good exercise, but I don’t like to be cold.

Q. Yeah.

A. Downhill skiing never interested me, waiting in line to get up on this chair thing to go way up to go back down the mountain to get in line all over again to go back up. Doesn’t excite me.

Q. Well gee when you say it like that it doesn’t sound like any fun (laugh).

A. But there are some people who love skiing. My father loved it, my brother loved it. I just don’t like to be cold. I love bike riding though. I have my little tandem I go whenever I can.

Q. So you enlist friends, to-?

A. Yeah, well they all promise till I try to pin them down so it’s hard. 

Q. yeah.

A. There’s a woman here who runs bike rides every couple of weeks in the summer and she’s really nice. The only drawback to it is we stop every little while because some people aren’t as good riders and so we have to give them little rest stops. That’s annoying, but at least something. I took a tandem bike trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles in ‘89.

Q. Wow, how far is that?

A. It was 500 miles.

Q. Wow!

A. We did about 50 miles a day. 

Q. That’s a good long bike ride.

A. It was fun, it was really fun. 

Q. I bet.

A. I love tandem.

Q. Just a couple more. What do you attribute to your present level of mobility?

A. Perseverance 

Q. Uh huh.

A. and probably being cautious because now things are so different. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. And my solid confidence that my parents had in me.

Q. Neat. Would you get more mobility instruction?

A. I probably would if I moved to a new place. Years ago, I would say no, but yeah I probably would. But I think I would pick and choose. I wouldn’t. I don’t think I would go through an agency I think I would ask around and find the good ones and pay them privately so I could be assured of getting somebody good. 

Q. Neat.

A. Because, well I’m lucky I can afford to do that. Um and I could also you know barter skills with somebody too you know they need help with something or, cause I think people in the profession if they see somebody they want to help out and it would only be a matter of a few hours. But, I would definitely pay somebody. I’m lucky I can afford too. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I’m lucky I have a good job. So that’s a luxury that I have that some people don’t and I don’ t mean to sound smug about that. But yeah, I’d probably pick my mobility instructors. See I’ve had good,  and I’ve had bad. And if I’m going to do it I really want good. 

(end tape 2 side 1) 

Q. I want you to define for me good mobility instructor bad mobility instructor. 

A. Well OK, someone who’s friendly. Someone who understands. Someone who isn’t condescending, that’s one thing.

Q. Yeah.

A. If I don’t get it right away don’t get impatient with me, just find a different way to explain it. Um take me to my objective not. You know help me to reach my objective not your agenda. Um, uh I guess those would be the big things and you know just be personable. 

Q. What do you think of blind mobility instructors?

A. I’m very much against them.

Q. And why is that?

A. well, I’ve worked in rehab settings and stuff, and I have taught people to get around buildings. I think I can do that safely, because I think any blind person who is a good traveler can do that safely. Because you know where the stairs are and there aren’t, you know a lot of variables, you know that people are going to be hit by a car or something. And you can tell them, you can warn them to look out for carts or buckets in the middle of the hall and stuff like that. You can teach that without someone getting hurt. But outside um you know like the day I got hit. That car came out of nowhere we didn’t hear it. I mean I was suddenly on the ground. And a blind person isn’t going to pick that up. I mean it’s all the NFB stuff, “we can do anything” Well I’m sorry you can’t. But. In fact, I read this article was it, I don’t know if you know Dona Sauerburger? 

Q. Sure.

A. She wrote an article in favor of blind mobility instructors. I was very surprised, because I think they’re dangerous. I would not work with one, ever. Now, I would ask a good friend, whose mobility skills I trust. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. You know and I would say you know could you tell me and let’s walk together cause they have good skills and I have good skills. Or I have my dear husband who just came in holding my hand to show me something because he’s a good traveler and I’m a good traveler. I could show him something. But I would not want a blind mobility instructor forget it. I wouldn’t trust him or her. I’d be terrified. Like you’re going to teach me? I’m newly blinded and I’m terrified.

Q. Right.

A. You’re going to teach me, you’re blind and you’re going to make sure the car its safe? I don’t think so. Maybe to go to the mailbox and back in a rural area you know. I could maybe live with that, but streets and stuff, no. 

Q. This has been a wonderful conversation for me. I have really enjoyed it.

A. I have too its been fun. 

Q. Its been a lot of fun for me and I really appreciate your taking this time out. 

A. Oh my pleasure, I’ve enjoyed it, it’s been fun. Steve told me I’d really enjoy talking to you.

Q. Oh that’s great, you guys are great! I hope we can meet up sometime. 

A. That would be great. We have a pass to the radio TV museum that expires in April that we should really use. 

Q. Well let me give you my number.

A. Hey partner have you got your check back handy? Grace wants to give us her phone number. I’m not near anything to write with and he has a little handy dandy recorder thingy that he

Q. Cool.

A. This little tiny thing that he uses to take messages on. 

Q. What’s it called?

A. Its called a check back. 

Q. 845-896-1152

A. Thank you that would be great.

Q. Yeah you guys are great.

A. Awe thank you. It’d be fun to go out and have some lunch, talk some more.

Q. Absolutely.

A. I’ve really enjoyed this a lot and I know Steve would too, we’d both like to know what happens with this project. 

Q. Well I’m working really hard on it and I hope to turn it into a couple of different things so.

A. Cool.

Q. So. I’ve been getting wonderful, tremendous, wonderful stuff here. And I’m going to share it with the right audience. 

A. We’re giving you people we think will be interesting so, 

Q. Well tell Bruce if he got my email to email me back (laugh)

A. I will.

Q. Alright.

A. I’ll jog him.

Q. Alright you guys have a good rest of the night. And I hope that you’ll will give me a call when you come to town.

A. Alright. We will do that. Good night Grace.

Q. Good night.

Interviewed by:         Grace Ambrose

Interview date:          1/20/00

Transcription             Grace

Transcription Date:

Reviewed by:            Grace Ambrose-Zaken

Review date:             9/27/23

Her father wanted her to be the best. She hated the cane, admitted to bumping into classmates, walking slowly, having to keep one foot on the grass and the other on the sidewalk, to be independent without the cane tool a great deal of difficulty – and once she was provided with the long cane it didn’t make sense.