Patricia, born 1951 - To Use or Not To Use the White Cane The conflict is real

Patricia Montgomery is a terrific example of the seeds the world has sown. People with visual impairments are expected to be visually capable and blind people are expected to be treated as if they are sighted. Blindness and visual impairment are the most blatant form of stereotyping and marginalizing of a disability group out in the open. Consider the slur, ‘what are you blind?’

Being Blind is a reality for people, and it means they can’t see. It doesn't mean anything else.

But when you ask Patricia to describe her vision and then ask her about her travel and cane use – it sounds very conflicted. 

listen to her story for consistency. In the case of Patricia Montgomery, she doesn’t know the name of her visual impairment. Her description of her visual functioning. I have good light perception.  I can see how to get around pretty good.  I have good, uh, color.  I can tell color real good.

She got her long cane and her confidence without it only grew stronger. Yet, unfamiliar places (or perhaps lighting) hard to say – there are times she pulls out her long cane. 

Is it the expectations of society, the limits of the white cane options or is it real – without the detail vision and reliance on color makes knowing if what is ahead is a drop off a puddle or simply a different floor color very challenging. A white cane cuts through all of the clutter and very simply and plainly says what it is – smooth surface, change in surface, drop off. 

Why is it so important to walk around with less certainty for blind and visually impaired folks than sighted folks?

Perhaps sighted folks need to examine their expectations of blind folks – not one would expect a person who relies on a wheelchair to move about and ignore their need for a wheelchair in familiar settings.

Let’s listen to Patricia – I only wish I had the vocabulary to have asked more about her being a student at the segregated school for the blind in the 1960s.

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Transcript

 Patricia Montgomery, 11/27/99

 [side A]

 Q. Please state and spell your full name.

A. Patricia Montgomery, Middle initial A.

Q. Right.  What’s your date of birth?

A. /51.

Q. And where were you born?

A. Jackson, Mississippi.

Q. And where do you live now?

A. Jackson, Mississippi.

Q. And what do you do for a living?

A. Uh, I’m a recruiter with Mississippi Blood Services.

Q. Oh.

A. I recruit people to come in and donate blood.

Q. Neat.  Um, where did you go to college?

A. Jackson State University.

Q. And what’s your highest degree?

A. Um, Bachelor’s of Science.

Q. Neat.  How long have you had a vision impairment?

A. Uh, since birth.

Q. What’s the name of it?

A. I’m not sure.  [laugh]

Q. Oh.

A. I’m not sure.

Q. Um, are you totally blind?

A. Uh, I have good light perception.  I can see how to get around pretty good.  I have good, uh, color.  I can tell color real good.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I can see objects.  I just don’t know what they are.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I know that something is there, you know, I'm looking at a chair the reason I know it’s a chair in my room because I know it’s there and I can see, you know…  I can’t make (sic) faces.  But, I can see people and stuff like that, I just can’t make (sic) faces.

Q. Right.  Um, so do you have an acuity?

A. A what?

Q. Your acuity…do you have an acuity?

A. What’s that?

Q. Like, 20/200 or 20/800?

A. Um, I’m not sure what it is.  They just said, you know…  I’m not totally blind but they just said I have good light, good light perception.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I am legally blind.

Q. Yeah.

A. I am blind.

Q. Yeah.

A. With good light perception.

Q. Neat.

A. I can see…  I think the doctor said, uh, two feet away.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, that might help you out any.

Q. Um, yeah, just curious.  Um, when did you first realize that you were visually impaired?

A. Hm.

Q. …as a child?

A. I don’t know.  I guess since it was always light, that I guess I really…  I don’t know when I realized it.  [laugh]

Q. Uh huh.

A. I guess I thought I was just normal, you know, since I was like that from birth.  It’s not like I lost, you know, went that way.  So I guess I just assumed I was normal.  [laugh]

Q. Right.  But at one point you maybe started to realize that…

A. Well, as I began to grow, you know…  Probably at about ten, I guess when I realized, you know, that…being around my other friends, you know, that they had more sight than I had and stuff.

Q. Yeah.

A. You know, well…  Even probably, even before ten because I knew I was going to a special school and they weren’t, so…

Q. So, did you go to the school for the blind?

A. Yeah.  Uh huh.

Q. What, what’s the name of that?

A. Mississippi School for the Blind.

Q. Mississippi School for the Blind.

A. I went, uh, to the Capers Campus.  We had two schools.  Then, back then our school was separate.  When we…  They only, they integrated, like, in 1974.

Q. Oh.

A. So we had two separate campuses.  So I to specifically state that I was at the Capers Campus.

Q. I see.  Right.  So, it was segregated.

A. Right.

Q. Yeah.

A. Until ’74.

Q. Till ’74.

A. By that time, I had already graduated.

Q. Hm.

A. Right.

Q. Um, what was that like, going to that school?

A. Um, it was…  It had its good days and it had its bad days.

Q. Yeah.  What did you…

A. It was all right, though.

Q. What did you like about it?

A. It was all you knew.

Q. Yeah. What did you like about it?

A. Um, I liked the fact we had a good choir.

Q. Um hm.

A. And we got to go on, you know, trips…the choir did.  And I liked…  Um, we did a lot of plays at school.  We did a lot of plays.  So, I got, you know, fortunate enough to be in a lot of plays growing up at school.  So, I liked that part of it.

Q. What didn’t you like about it?

A. Uh, I guess I didn’t too much care for staying on campus.  Some years I liked staying on campus and some…sometime I didn’t.

Q. Yeah.

A. It just all depended on what year it was.  Um, and I guess I didn’t like the…about, you know, the freedom that I had at home, you know.  I could go to the store when I wanted.  We had certain time…we could go to the store, you know, uh, you know…  Sometimes they would let us go out there or sometime, you know, an adult had to go with us.

Q. So, did you, um…  When did you first learn to travel independent of another person?

A. Uh, hm…  Uh, early on in life.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I always could go wherever I wanted to go.  Um, even though I didn’t get no formal training or mobility until I graduated from college.  I actually had informal training but I always was independent, you know, to go wherever I wanted to go and go over to my friends’ house and, you know, wherever I wanted to go in the neighborhood I went. [laugh]

Q. How did you do that?

A. Oh, I just, you know, I just used the little sight I had and then you just learn your way.  You just…  I knew the neighborhood, you know, ‘cause I played it was my neighborhood.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um, when I got to Jackson State, I learned that you…  You know, I was forced to learn that, you know, you couldn’t be dependent on nobody so you started, you know, you started learning…paying attention to where your classes were and you just paid attention and you just learned how to go back to them.  So…and I did it…

Q. So, what did you know about your neighborhood at home?

A. Oh, what…  Oh, I knew everything.  [laugh]

Q. Like what?

A. Uh, I knew where all my friends’ houses were.  I knew where my church was in the neighborhood.  I could go to church by myself.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I knew where the grocery store was in the neighborhood and I could go there if I wanted to.  And, you know, so, I just knew where everything was.

Q. Yeah.  Did you use any kind of, um, mobility…

A. cane or nothing?

Q. Yeah.

A. No.

Q. Did that get you in trouble?

A. No, because, back then when I grew up, you didn’t know all about that.

Q. Um hm.

A. About mobility and the proper way of learning, uh, mobility skills.  You know, we didn’t have that.

Q. So, did you ever get hurt or…?

A. No, no more than what normal children do.

Q. You didn’t think…

A. Whatever they did…  I learned how to skate.

Q. Oh.

A. I didn’t have a skating rink to learn in.  We learned on the street.  Um, I learned how to ride a bicycle.  And, no more normal…[laugh] you know, falls or anything…than nobody else had.

Q. Yeah.

A. No.

Q. Do you think you walked slower than most people, or…

A. No.

Q. No.

A. Nope.

Q. Did you run and…

A. Yep.

Q. …all that good stuff?

A. Yeah.  ‘Cause I was always around normal children.

Q. Yeah.

A. And they didn’t me no differently.  They didn’t see me as different.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, whatever they did, I did.  If they got in trouble, I got in trouble.  [laugh]

Q. [laugh]

A. That’s how that went.

Q. What about your family?  What did they think about your traveling by yourself?

A. Oh, uh, well, they, they let me do it, you know.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Sometimes I think my mother kind of sneak around and watch.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, anyway, you know…  They soon came to learn that I was going to go where I wanted to go.  Anyway…  And I went where I wanted to go.

Q. Well, do you remember that you have any sort of precautions that you, yourself, you know…  Like at night, or if there’s glare…

A. Oh, yeah, you know, …no more normal precautions than anybody else had.  You know, that you would have taken.

Q. Uh huh.

A. You know. I didn’t roam around just at night by myself.  Well then, in the neighborhood, growing up…when I grew up in the neighborhood, you know, it wasn’t like it was now.  You could be outside, you know, all times at night, nobody would, you know, bother you.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, you know, it’s nothing like it is now.  But even at that, you know, I just didn’t run over the whole neighborhood.  If I was at a friend’s house…  I grew up in the project and, I know my cousin and I…best cousin…we lived like a door, maybe a couple of doors down from each other and I would do back…  We would go back and forth from her house to my house or I would leave her house and come home, you know.

Q. Um hm.

A. I didn’t have the far to go.  You know, but, like I say, it wasn’t like it was now.  Now I wouldn’t go up…

Q. Uh huh…

A. …I wouldn’t go up to my Aunt's house…they live up the street from me [laugh].

Q. [laugh]

A. In the dark, not by myself.

Q. Because it’s just more dangerous.

A. Well yeah, because, you know, because of the times.

Q. Yeah.  More people carrying guns.

A. You know…you can’t do that now.

Q. Yeah. Well, what about public transportation?  Did you do that as a kid by yourself?

A. Um…

Q. Take the bus?

A. Not, not a whole lot by myself, but I, I knew how.

Q. Um hm.

A. Um hm.  I rode bus and stuff.

Q. Uh huh.  And…

A. A lot of times, uh, whenever we had to go downtown and pay bills and stuff, it would always usually be my cousin and us because I was paying…you know, they always sent us [laugh]

Q. Yeah.

A. …to do that.

Q. Neat.

A. A lot of times, we wouldn't…to save our money, we wouldn’t ride the bus, we would walk.

Q. Oh.

A. That way we stopped at the ice cream shop or where we wanted to stop…

Q. [laugh]

A. …at this bakery and get what we wanted, you know, so we took our bus fare and we would opt to walk downtown, so…

Q. How far was that?

A. Mmmm, it was some blocks from where I stayed.

Q. [laugh]  I bet it was.  

A. Uhm hmm. 

Q. Um, so what did you use to cross streets safely?  How did you do that?

A. Oh, I learned how to stop and listen early, early on, when I crossed the street.   Then, when I lived in the project, um, if I wanted to go to my friend’s house or my momma would put me across the street.  Or, I had another cousin I was close to and if she wanted me to come to her house, she would come and stand on the other side of the street and when the traffic got clear, she’d tell me to run across.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, that’s the way we did.

Q. Neat.

A. And if I crossed by myself, I just listened real well.

Q. What were you listening for?

A. Just for the cars and stuff.  to make sure, you know, wasn't no traffic coming.

Q. So, you’d wait to not hear anything.

A. Um hm.  And then I’d go across.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Run across as fast as I could.

Q. [laugh]

A. Yeah.

Q. Um, so then, you went to college.

A. Um hm.

Q. And you still didn’t have any mobility training.

A. No.

Q. So, how did you learn your way around the university campus?

A. Oh, I just started paying attention and asking people where things were and…  First of all, I learned how to go from, you know, to all of my classes and I just, you know, I just started paying attention to where I was going.  And I just learned because I can see some, so that helped some.

Q. Yeah.  So, what would you look for?

A. But then, but then, I taught a sister that couldn’t see and she learned.

Q. Oh, yeah?

A. Yeah.

Q. So, you taught somebody else the campus, too.

A. Right.  Um hm.

Q. So, what would you look for?  What kinds of things would you…

A. You just, you learned one way first, initially, it might have been the long way, but then, as you learned, then you start talking to other people and then you just start learning short ways, too.  Just paying attention to the different sidewalks and where they went, you know.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And you just did it.  [laugh]

Q. Did you always go with somebody?

A. What, to class?

Q. Uh huh.

A. Oh, no, uh uh.

Q. How…  You said, would you ask somebody, like, for the very first time, come with me?

A. Well, at first, there was somebody taking me, but then, they kind of, like, went out the window so then I just had to realize, you…you know you’ve got to do this by yourself so I just started remembering where I went.

Q. Yeah.

A. And I’d just go back.  I would pay particular attention to where I was.  And if I kind of got confused I would ask somebody and they’d put me back on the right track.

Q. Yeah.  So, um, so, when did you get mobility?  You said, you were you, like 27 or so?

A. I got mobility, uh, I think in ’75.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I guess that was my first formal.  It was, like, in the…  I guess it was late winter to early spring.

Q. And, up until that time, you hadn’t used a cane or anything?

A. Um um.

Q. So, did they give you a cane at that time?

A. Uh huh.

Q. And what else…  Do you remember the method they…that was used to teach you?

A. Um, yeah.  They just showed you how to, how to…  The technique, how to walk, how to do your hands, how to use your wrist.  The motions and, uh, I, I even learned underblindfold.  So…

Q. Oh.  What did you think of…

A. They said I was cheating.

Q. They said you were cheating?

A. Uh huh, because I could see some and I would use…  You see, I learned how to use the sight that I had…

Q. Right.

A. …so, so I learned how to use a cane under blindfold.

Q. Well, how did that make you feel when they called it cheating?

A. Well, I guess I was cheating…to them, I guess, because I was using the little sight

that I had and I guess they didn’t want me to just be dependent on that.  I guess they wanted me to let the cane do the work.

Q. Oh.  So, what, were you, like, looking down a lot?

A. Yeah, I was looking, you know, watching where I was going.  [laugh]

Q. Did you, you know…  You would watch your feet, watch right in front of you?

A. No, I would just look like normal people…just walked and just… Nah, I wasn’t looking at my feet or nothing.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I was just, you know, looking like normal people…just pay attention.

Q. Hm.

A. And when I could get to the curb, I could see the step down and stuff.

Q. Right.

A. Uh huh.

Q. So, I guess it’s sort of curious to me that they would call it cheating.

A. Well, I guess for lack of a better word, I guess, that’s just how they see it.  I don’t think she meant nothing by it.

Q. Yeah.  And, what did it feel like to put the blindfold on?  What did you think about that?

A. At first, I didn’t like it.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, as I started doing it, you know, it got to be all right.  At first, it felt funny.

Q. Yeah.

A. You know, but once I did it every day, it, you know, got to be OK.

Q. And did…  What were the benefits, do you think, of learning under blindfold?

A. Well, I guess the benefits…  I guess if I lose what I have, I do know I can operate…  I’m quite sure it would be a, you know, an adjustment period that I would have to go through, but it’s not that I couldn’t do it.  I guess that would be the benefit of it.

Q. What did you learn using the blindfold that you still use today?

A. Um, um, nothing I don't guess.

Q. So, now…  When you took the blindfold off, it was back to…

A. You right.

Q. …cheating?  [laugh]

A. Yeah.

Q. For lack of a better word.

A. If that's what you want to call it then yeah.

Q. [laugh]  But you…

A. I can see…

Q. But you…it’s back to doing what you really…

A. Right.

Q. …like to do.

A. Right.

Q. Which is use your vision.

A. Right.

Q. Um, to look at, what?

A. See where I'm going at…whatever.

Q. Yeah.  And the cane…what does the cane do?

A. Well, the cane, it just helps you…it helps me from, you know, obstacles that might have been in my way that I didn’t know that was there.  You know, it found it first.  You know, whatever.  And, basically now I only use a cane if I’m going to unfamiliar places.

Q. Oh.

A. I don’t just use the cane…  I’d probably do more harm with it than good.

Q. You think?

A. I know so.

Q. [laugh]  So…

A. I don’t even use it where I work.

Q. You don’t use it, really, at all.

A. Um um.

Q. Um…

A. Only if I'm going, if I know I’m going to an unfamiliar place…

Q. Like, where?

A. …like if I have to cross a street by myself or something.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I keep one with me at all.  I’ve got one in my purse.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, if I need it, I’ve got it.

Q. Yeah.

A. And I will use it.

Q. Um, so, what kind of cane do you have…a folding cane?

A. Yeah, it folds.

Q. What kind of tip is on it?

A. Uh, I probably have one of the old, kind of old fashioned type canes.  I don’t have one of the modern ones.  That they have, you know, they have so many out now.  Mine…it’s just a regular type folding cane.

Q. Uh huh.  How many canes do you own?

A. Uh, one.

Q. Uh huh.  Have you tried any other kinds of mobility tools?

A. Uh uh.

Q. Have you, uh…

A. I mean, no more than other…  I have some friends that had a Seeing Eye Dog and I tried to walk with him just…just for the sake so you could see how it was to walk with him, but…

Q. What did you think?

A. They’re all right.

Q. Yeah.  Not for you, or…

A. No.  Not for me ‘cause I’m not really…

Q. You don’t need it.

A. …um, an animal lover.

Q. Oh.  [laugh]  That makes a big difference, too.

A. Yeah.

Q. What about the roller tips?  Have you heard anything about those?

A. No, I haven’t heard nothing about those.

Q. They just roll on the ground.

A. No. I hadn’t heard anything about those.

Q. Do you use constant contact or do you tap your cane…the two-point touch…when you use your cane?

A. I guess I just…  I don’t know.  I guess I kind of, like, do it how they taught me where you take it back and forth you go from one side to the other.

Q. Um hm.

A. That’s what I do but I don’t just tap it real loud where people know I’m coming.

Q. No.  Right.  But you use the technique.

A. Um hm.

Q. Yeah.  When might you take your cane out?  You said, when you go to unfamiliar areas.

A. Yeah, when I go to unfamiliar places or when I’ve got to cross a street.

Q. Cross a street.

A. Or something of that nature.

Q. Why do you take it out for crossing a street?

A. Uh, oh, you know, so, you know, people can realize, you know, that I am visually impaired.

Q. Uh huh.  Do you ever take it out when you’re going to ask for assistance?

A. Uh…

Q. Or if you’re, like…  For people to know that you’re visually impaired in other settings?

A. Um, not all the time.  It depends on where I…it depends.

Q. Yeah.

A. It depends.  If I think I can’t find what I’m going to, yeah. But, you know, if I figure I can find the--like the desk I don't necessarily have to take it out.

Q. Oh.

A. I do as much as I can on my own ability.

Q. Um, how do you get to and from work?

A. Oh, I ride the, uh Jay Train hand-i-lift bus.

Q. Uh huh.  Are you on their route on a schedule with them?

A. Um hm.

Q. What do you do if you want to off the schedule…if you want to stay later, or not go…

A. You just cancel that day.  You just cancel if you’re not going.

Q. Uh huh.

A. You call in the morning.  If I’m going to cancel in the morning, I just say, cancel the morning.  If I’ve going to cancel the whole day, I say, cancel the whole day.

Q. Um hm.

A. A lot of times, I generally ride in the morning.  Most of my cancellations come in the evening time.  If I’m going to cancel, I usually cancel the afternoon.

Q. Why do you cancel in the afternoons more?

A. A lot of times I have another way home.

Q. Like what?

A. Uh, my son will pick me up or something like that.

Q. Uh huh.  Have you ever been let off at the wrong place by the hand-i-ride?

A. Uh, uh uh.

Q. No.  Have you ever taken it to more than just back and forth?

A. Huh?

Q. Do you ever use it for anything else?

A. Oh, yeah, uh huh.

Q. Like what?

A. Uh, if I want to go to the mall, you know, on a Saturday or something like that, I have used it.

Q. Uh huh.

A. If I want to go to a…  You know, whatever I’ve got to do, I have used it.

Q. So, it works well for you?

A. Uh huh.

Q. What do you like about it?

A. Uh, that they come right to your door and pick you up and bring you back to your basically.

Q. What do you not like about it?

A. Uh, what I don’t like about it is that sometime they fill up on Saturdays and you have a hard time getting in…

Q. Yeah.

A. …if you don’t call in, you know, in time, through the week.

Q. Yeah.

A. You have a hard time getting in on Saturday.

Q. Um, have you ever been disoriented?

A. Um, no, not that I can remember.

Q. Um hm.

A. Not lately, anyway [laugh]

Q. Yeah.  Um, how do you feel about traveling along to unfamiliar places?

A. It’s a little, you know, just like…  It ‘s a little scary, but, you know, if you have to do it, you have to do it.  [laugh]

Q. Right.  How do you prepare to travel, you know, to unfamiliar places?

A. Well, you just prepare and, well, for one thing, you can’t be scared…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …’cause if you need to ask questions, you can’t be scared to ask, you know, questions if you don’t know, you know, so…  That’s, that’s basically how that goes.

Q. Have you ever traveled to another state?

A. Um hm.

Q. By yourself?

A. Uh huh.

Q. So, how did you get there?

A. Uh…

Q. Where’d you go, what’d you do?

A. Uh, the first time I traveled to a state by myself I took my sister…  Well, I went by myself but I had two little children with me.

Q. Oh, my.

A. I put them on a plane to Detroit and I came back home by myself.  And, um…

Q. So how did you do that?

A. Oh, well, I notified the airport that I was, you know, on the way back ‘cause I knew I had to change flights in Memphis and I know when I made my reservations, I let it be known that I’d need some assistance, you know, from one place to the next.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, when I got to Memphis, they had somebody there waiting on me and took me to my next point.

Q. That worked out fine?

A. Um hm.  Worked out just fine.

Q. Neat.

A. Yeah.

Q. Was that kind of nerve wracking, having to keep track of the two kids [laugh] in the big place like that?

A. Oh, no, uh uh…  ‘Cause there was…  Um um, it was, uh, pretty much a direct flight.  It, like, came down but, you know, we didn’t have to get off or anything.

Q. Yeah.

A. But coming back, I had to transfer. \

Q. Yeah.

A. Which was all right.  It was no problem at all.

Q. Neat.

A. Um hm.

Q. How do you establish your position in the environment?

A. Um…

Q. How do you know where you are?

A. Huh?

Q. How do you know where you are?

A. Oh, I…  How do I know?

Q. Yeah.

A. Uh, I guess I just know.

Q. [laugh]

A. Just instinct tell you where you are, you know.  It’s just, like, I guess, how do you know where you are? [laugh]

Q. Well, I mean, I’ll look around at, um…

A. Yeah, well, you know…  I have a basic idea of the area.  You know, familiar area, so, I pretty much know.  You can’t lose me too far.

Q. Right.

A. You know…

Q. Um, have you ever used or do you use maps of any kind?

A. Uh, no.  I don’t personally.

Q. Uh huh.

A. But, you know, if somebody else reads one to me then I can tell them where they’re trying to go basically.

Q. What’s that now?  If somebody…

A. If somebody needs a map and if we’re sitting down and if they read it to me, then I can tell them.

Q. Uh huh.

A. You know, basically, where they’re trying to get to.

Q. ’Cause you know your city well.

A. Right.  I pretty much know the city.  You know, I know the major of the streets in the city.

Q. Right.

A. So, I might not can tell you directly where every street is but, you know, if, if, you know, if you give me a major street, then I can kind of tell you what area to start looking at…

Q. Right.

A. …to find what you want to know.  Right.

Q. Um, what one thing that happens frequently when you're traveling that you like the least?

A. Uh, I guess when people just think they can…you know, that you just always need help, I guess.

Q. Yeah.

A. Uh, they want to run up and, you know, just…  You know, they help you but it’s how they help you.  They grab you by the arm like they’re about the break your arm off.

Q. Right.

A. I don’t like that part, I guess.

Q. When does that happen mostly to you?

A. Um, it used to happen a lot when I was in mobility training.

Q. Oh.

A. Right.  They think that, you know, you need help to cross the street, they come and get you.  But, you know, you really didn’t want the help because you was in training, you know.

Q. Oh.  So, like, is that why you don’t like to use your cane?

A. No, uh uh.  It just…  I just use my…I use the sight that I have.

Q. Yeah.

A. I prefer using it…it has nothing to do with about the cane.

Q. Yeah.  Um, what do you want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?

A. Ask me… [laugh].

Q. Yeah.

A. ..if I need help.  At least, give me a choice in the matter.

Q. Yeah.  ‘Cause that’s annoying…

A. Yeah.

Q. …when they just come…  How do you handle being lost or disoriented?

A. Um, go, go ask questions and try to find out where I am or ask you know people to ask somebody.

Q. Yeah.

A. Basically, that’s how I handle that.

Q. What kinds of things do you use as landmarks?

A. Um, oh, uh, I…  Well, it depends on where I am would determine what my landmarks are.

Q. Well, think of some place specific where you could tell me about some landmarks.  Maybe in your job or…

A. Well, at my job, uh, I kind of count doors…mentally…I don’t just count them out…

Q. Right.

A. …out loud.  I kind of make a mental note.  Uh, I know where the conference room is and I know my office is right next door to one of the conference rooms.  If I go past the conference room, I know I passed my office, so go back.  I know to go back…

Q. What about the conference room sticks out?

A. Uh, I know where the copy room is… where all the copy machines at.

Q. Right.

A. And I know when I get to that, uh, I’m not that far from my office.  So, that’s what…basically that’s a landmark I use…the copy room.

Q. Because why?  ‘Cause you can hear it or…

A. I just know where it is.  Not…it’s not all the time that I can hear it ‘cause not all the time I pass by, everybody, somebody’s in there.  But I know where it is in the building.

Q. Oh.  Because, what…it’s on a corner or…

A. No, it’s not exactly on a corner.  In fact, it’s not on a corner at all.  It’s about the middle of the hallway.  [laugh]

Q. Uh huh.  It’s in the middle.

A. Uh huh.

Q. And, so, you’re, like, a door away from it or…

A. Um, yeah, about a…about a door over, yeah.

Q. Um hm.

A. And I know the color of the wall.  I know the wall on the one side coming toward the copy room is blue.

Q. Yeah.

A. So, I use that as a landmark.  And so…  That’s basically what I use at work.

Q. Neat.  Have you ever been injured when traveling?

A. Injured?

Q. Yeah.

A. Uh uh. (no)

Q. Never gotten hurt?

A. Um um. (no)

Q. Um, do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?

A. Uh, I’m a member of the National Federation of the Blind.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And that’s about it.

Q. Do you go to conventions?

A. Yeah.  I have gone.  I don’t go every year but, yeah, I have gone.

Q. I hear they’re a lot of fun [laugh]

A. Uh huh, they are.

Q. Yeah.

A. Never been to one come.

Q. Oh, you recommend it, huh?

A. Yeah.

Q. Well, that’s great.  I definitely am going to do that one time.

A. Oh, you'll have a good time.

Q. Um, so do you usually go to those by yourself or with someone?

A. The times I have gone, I’ve always been with somebody else.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um hm.

Q. And, so, what kind of arrangements do you make for that kind of travel?

(how do you prepare)

A. Uh, well, we just…mostly…  It depends whether…  Well, the time we went, we went on a bus…well, twice we went on a bus.  And…

Q. Was it, like, a charter bus, where everybody was going…

A. Well, one time it was a charter bus and one time…in ’97, we just went on a regular bus.

Q. Like a Greyhound?

A. Right.

Q. Uh huh.

A. A group of us, about ten of us, I think, went on a Greyhound bus.

Q. Uh huh.  Oh, that must have been fun.

A. Yeah, it was fun.

Q. And, um, now, to get from the Greyhound Bus terminal to the hotel…

A. Well, you know, you can take a taxi and stuff.  But we were blessed because the Greyhound bus driver took us to where we wanted to go.

Q. Really?

A. Yeah.

Q. He drove the bus to the hotel?

A. Right.

Q. Wow.

A. After he left…  He left the other people off at the terminal, then he just…  Well, he said, we’re so close and we had all that luggage and by the time we got out and got a cab, he just…  He went ahead and, you know, took us around.  So, that helped out.

Q. That sure did.

A. And we had sighted people with us that time.

Q. Wow, that was really nice of that guy.

A. Very nice.

Q. [laugh]

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you write a letter and thank the guy?

A. My sister said she was going to write one…

Q. Yeah.

A. …and I guess they did.

Q. Yeah.  Um, how did ADA impact you?  Do you notice a difference before and after its passage?

A. No, no.

Q. No.

A. Well, I guess there is a difference.  Maybe we have more opportunities, you know, for a job.

Q. Yeah.

A. Yeah.

Q. Good.  What do you attribute to your present level of mobility?

A. Uh, hm.  I don’t know.  Uh, uh, I guess what I contribute to it…  I guess the greatest task I had, beside growing up…  You know, I grew up…  Well, I guess I was fortunate enough to grow up with children that didn’t see me, you know, as being different.

Q. Yeah.

A. And I did just what they did and I guess that contribute to where I am today.

Q. Yeah.  So, after you had your mobility, um, how long was that for?  Do you remember how long you did it?

A. Um, um, uh, probably about, um, let’s see, it was…  It didn’t last that long.  It was about, maybe, two months, three months.

Q. Hm.

A. I’m trying to think.  About…  I’m trying to think when I actually started.  I think I started, like, in January…late January or early February 75.

Q. Hm.

A. I guess I finished about April or May, I guess.  Somewhere up in there…before summer it was over.

Q. Do you think it was, sort of, a waste of time, in a way?

A. No, it wasn’t a waste of time, ‘cause, you know, there were some things I learned.  I learned how to use the technique so if I ever need it, you know.  I don’t think it was just a total waste of my time.

Q. So, the most useful was being able to have that cane when you want to use it.

A. Yeah.

Q. Yeah.  Did they…  Do you think they took…they realized how well you were able to orient...how good you already were?

A. Yeah.

Q. They took advantage and they taught you at that level.

A. Yeah.

Q. You were already very good.  

A. Right.

Q. So they weren’t trying to teach you something you already knew.

A. Um um.

Q. That’s good.  Do you think you’d get more mobility?

A. Um, probably not at the present time…

Q. Um hm.

A. …but, you know…no, not right now.

Q. Yeah.

A. Because I’ve been through the program.  I basically know what to do and how to do it.

Q. Was your mobility instructor visually impaired?

A. Uh uh (no).

Q. What do you think about having, um, instructors who are visually impaired?

A. Um, well, I guess if they know what they’re doing, but, then, if, uh…  I guess they do need some vision so they can be able to see what you are doing.  ‘Cause a total, you know, I’m not saying a total couldn’t do it…

Q. Um hm.

A. …but how would they to know that you’re actually doing what you’re supposed to be doing?

Q. Yeah.

A. So, I guess it would help if they did have some vision.

Q. Yeah.

A. I would think so, anyway.

Q. Neat.  Well, gee, that was easy, wasn’t it?

A. Um hm.

Q. [laugh]

A. That’s it?

Q. Yeah.

A. Oh.

Q. That’s everything.  Um, you’re very succinct.  You say what you need to say and…  [laugh]

A. [laugh]

Q. Some people talk my ear off.  [laugh]

A. Oh, they do?

Q. [laugh]  But I enjoy it either way.  I do.

A. Oh, so what state are you in?

Q. I live in New York.

A. Oh, in New York City?

Q. Actually, I don’t live in the city.  I work in the city but I live outside the city in the suburbs.

A. Oh, OK.

Q. Yeah.

A. What suburb are you in?

Q. Well, I live in a place called Wappingers Falls.

A. Oh.

Q. It’s very near a place called Poughkeepsie.  I don’t know if you’ve heard…

A. Yeah, I’ve heard of Poughkeepsie.

Q. Yeah.  A lot of people hear of Poughkeepsie.  I don’t know why.

A. Uh huh.

Q. Yeah, so, I go in on the train every day…

A. OK.

Q. …every day and I work at Hunter College.

A. Uh huh.

Q. And I teach orientation and mobility instructors.

A. Oh, OK.

Q. And I’m hoping to write this book.  I’ve learned a lot from people.

A. Uh huh.

Q. And, um, the more people I talk to who don’t use mobility, you know, tools…it’s also very interesting to me.

A. Now, outside the city, do you drive your own car?

Q. Yeah.  I’m not visually impaired.

A. You just don’t drive in the city…you just don’t drive to the city every day.

Q. Right.  No, it would be…  It’s just too crazy…the traffic, um, it’s just…  To try and drive in, like a normal hour in the day…

A. Um hm.

Q. …you’d be in traffic for hours.

A. Uh huh.

Q. It’s just stop and go.  It’s just…  It’s mind boggling.

A. My daughter had an opportunity to go to the city…to go to New York _________________ and she was telling me how the traffic was…

Q. [laugh]

A. …and how narrow the streets are.  ‘Cause I thought…  I had pictured in my mind that New York had the big wide streets, but she was telling me, no, momma, those streets are little.  Sometimes you don’t even know how the buses make the turns on the streets.

Q. Well, New York’s pretty good. There’s no right on red in the city.

A. OK.

Q. And, um…

A. You know, she was telling me…

Q. …it’s got…  It’s pretty good, I think, for people but there are…  We have some pretty big avenues…

A. Yeah, I know, some of them…

Q. …like Park Avenue, 57th Street and…

A. Right.

Q. …Broadway…

A. Right.  I know those streets.

Q. Times Square.

A. Yeah, I know _________________ just talking about just normal.

Q. Yeah, they have just normal size streets, too.

A. Just normal size.  But I was thinking, you know, all the streets…  But I guess the streets in the neighborhoods are just normal.

Q. Yeah, yeah.

A. Like everybody else’s, I guess.

Q. Yeah.  It’s a fun city and the public transportation is the best.  I mean…

A. So, how far do you have to go to take public transportation?

Q. Well, I’m three miles from the train and then the train takes me 60 miles into the city.

A. Oh.

Q. [laugh]

A. What time do you have to start your day?

Q. Well, you know, I leave the house, usually, about 7:30 to get there about 9:15, or so.

A. Oh, uh huh.

Q. So…

A. Oh, you park your car at the thing…

Q. Right.  Right.  I drive to the train station and take the train into the city.

A. Uh huh.

Q. And then I use the subways or the buses to get around town.

A. Um hm.

Q. Or I’ll walk.  A lot of people walk.

A. Um hm.  Hunter College is right I the city?

Q. Yeah, yeah.  On East 68th and Lexington.

A. Is that a big college?

Q. Yeah, it’s pretty big.  It’s actually the City University of New York, so it’s one college in the university system.

A. Oh.

Q. College university…city university.

A. I’m learning something from you now.

Q. Yeah.  [laugh]

A. So then in the evening, you go back to the ________________

Q. That’s right.  I really like to get out…  I live in the country.

A. Oh, do you?

Q. Yeah.  My backyard’s nothing but woods and, uh, yeah, I can go hike it and, you know…

A. Oh, OK.

Q. It’s completely different.  The city is the city and then I get out of there.

A. You like going back home to the country.

Q. Yeah.  I do.  [laugh]

A. Now, how do your houses look up there?  Do your houses look like houses in the South?

Q. Yeah.  I mean, basically…

A. The style…

Q. Well, we have…  The architecture in my neighborhood is what you call ranch style houses.

A. Uh huh.

Q. And I think that I had a ranch style house in Nashville when I lived there.

A. Oh, OK.

Q. And then, I lived in Texas and I had a ranch style house, too.

A. Oh.

Q. I think it’s a pretty popular…

A. Oh, OK.

Q. It’s your basic three-bedroom house.  I don’t know.  But, like, um…  The thing in the city is there’s no yards.  There’s no, you know, there’s no…  The property values are so expensive…

A. Um hm.

Q. …that, you know, to get a little tiny square of grass is really something, so…

A. So, basically, in the city, mostly, uh, building…apartment buildings…

Q. Right.

A. and basically…

Q. Yeah.  Exactly.  Yeah, then…

A. …hard to find houses in the city.

Q. Well, yeah…  Well, see there’s residential areas, um, you know…

A. Yeah.

Q. ..in Queens or in Brooklyn…

A. OK.

Q. Um, but if you want to live in Manhattan, it’s all apartments.  There’s no houses.

A. Oh.

Q. As far as I can tell.  Big apartment buildings.

A. Well, all right, I won’t…

Q. [laugh]  I was wondering if you might have, uh, anybody that you might recommend that I speak to…  I’m looking for people who are…

A. Well, _______________ probably gave you everybody.

Q. [laugh]  I know, that’s just like…

A. Basically, she knows who I know.

Q. OK.

A. OK.

Q. Well, thanks a lot.

A. OK.

Q. Have a good one.

A. OK.

Q. Bye.

A. Bye bye.

Interview Date: 11/27/99

Transcribed by: Lenni

Transcription Date: 3/27/01

Reviewed by: Ambrose

Review Date: 4/7/01