Growing up Blind Conversations with Dr. G
Host Dr. Grace Ambrose-Zaken, President and CEO Safe Toddles non-profit and inventor of the Pediatric Belt Cane for blind toddlers discusses why her mission is to make walking safer for toddlers with a mobility visual impairment or blindness. Listen to: Interviews with families, professionals, adults who grew up with a mobility visual impairment or blindness, and more. For more information about this blog contact: 845-244-6600, info@safetoddles.org
Growing up Blind Conversations with Dr. G
Taletha born 1951 with no light perception
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
If you want some assurances that growing up blind, waiting until school age to get the first long cane can result in a well adjusted, fully employed and outgoing adult- then listen to Taletha. She compares working with O&M specialists who were sighted and blind. Overall, she felt she should have had much more time with either one of them – she had a 3 bus a day bus route to school every morning – in Detroit. She described herself as someone who these days preferred para transit, “Because this is a dangerous, cruel, unsafe world we live in.” Her story of being picked up by a stranger after getting off the wrong stop…well, the reality is – we need to care more about safety for blind people in every way.
The kind of danger she reported, almost becoming the victim of a horrendous crime, is very different from the lack of safety growing up without an effective 2-step safety buffer before her earliest memories took hold. But, I ask us all, do blind people really have to be so tough to be accepted as independent?
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If you want some assurances that growing up blind, waiting until school age to get first cane compares working with O&M specialists who were sighted and blind. Overall, she felt she should have had much more time with either one of them – she had a 3 bus a day bus route to school every morning – in Detroit. She described herself as someone who preferred para transit these days, “Because this is a dangerous, cruel, unsafe world we live in.” Her story of being picked up by a stranger after getting off the wrong stop…well, the reality is – we need to care more about safety for blind people in every way.
The kind of safety – she’s talking about almost becoming the victim of a horrendous crime, is very different from the lack of safety growing up without an effective 2-step safety buffer before her earliest memories took hold.
Do blind people really have to be so tough to be accepted as independent?
Script
Taletha Crawley, 10/20/99
[side A]
Q …that I’m actually picking you up. So, if you could just, um, say something.
A. OK. Hopefully, you’re picking me up.
Q. OK. So, um, if you could, just for the record, state and spell your name.
A. OK. First name Taletha Crawley.
Q. And your date of birth.
A. 1951.
Q. Great. And what do you do for a living?
A. Rehabilitation teacher, I work for the Commission for the Blind as an independent living specialist working with the seniors in independent living.
Q. And you don’t count the publishing end. [laugh]
A. Well, the magazine is something that I created, um, because I felt there was a need, so that’s sort of my own thing on the side. So you can put it…that’s part of it, too.
Q. Neat. Where were you born?
A. Detroit, Michigan.
Q. And where do you live now
A. Detroit, Michigan.
Q. [laugh] OK. Ah, where did you go to college?
A. Eastern Michigan University for undergrad and Western Michigan University for graduate school.
Q. Great. How long have you had a vision impairment?
A. All my life.
Q. OK. And what’s the name of it, the etiology.
A. Retrolental Fibroplasia.
Q. OK. Um, so, let’s just pick up in what we were talking about. You asked me, is it true that now they have mobility instructors that are visually impaired and is that a recent thing. And I was just sort of saying that really the history is, um, that they had, for quite a long time, people who were visually impaired teaching other people who were visually impaired in mobility and that’s when we started doing university training programs… You know what AER is. Are you a member of AER?
A. Yes, I am, uh huh.
Q. AER said, well, in order to be a mobility instructor, you have to be sighted…20/20, in fact. So, I was wondering what you think about, um, and what you know about that history.
A. Well, let’s see, I only remember having one visually impaired mobility instructor, uh, about when I was in the college prep program here in Detroit.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And, um, he had some vision but he was definitely visually impaired. And he was a very good traveler and, um, I was comfortable with him.
Q. Uh huh.
A. So, it didn’t really bother me. I mean, I was 16, so, you know, when you’re 16, you don’t have a whole lot of fear.
Q. [laugh]
A. [laugh]
Q. True.
A. Uh, but, uh, basically, I…I didn’t have any trouble and I felt comfortable with him. The sighted mobility instructor that I had when I was in high school, um, made more mistakes as far as training me than the visually impaired person did.
Q. OK. Can you give me some examples?
A. Well, I remember going…being trained to go to school on the bus and, um, the sighted O&M instructor had me crossing the street at one point in the middle of the street instead of at the corner…
Q. [laugh]
A. …where there was a light at and I thought to cross more safely and we went all three days together and, let me see, I think it was the third day or the second and third day, my mother went with me…she wanted to see what was happening…and, uh, I remember she pointed that out to him and he said, well, yeah, that’s true.
Q. [laugh]
A. I swear. And, it was… I don’t know if there was another… There was something else but I can’t remember it. But that one really stood out in my mind.
Q. Yeah, I bet. Now, what about, um, if you can remember, the… Was there any kind of difference in the approach or the techniques the instructors used to, um, um, to teach you the skills, or to observe you or whatever? Do you know what I’m trying to get at…in terms of their teaching techniques… Are you able to sort of compare them?
A. Well, let’s see. I felt a little bit more, um, oh what can I say? How do I say… The instructor that was visually impaired was really more personally connected. I mean, he seemed to really care and be aware, I guess that’s what I’m trying to say.
Q. Hm.
A. He was much more aware of the surroundings and some of the problems that might come up or whatever.
Q. Right.
A. But the sighted instructor that I had just seemed to take it in…this is what you do and he just didn’t seem to have it all together. Um, even as a young girl, I remember another sighted instructor but he just wasn’t…he wasn’t as observant and aware of problems. He was into more, um… Both of these gentlemen were more into, these are the streets, these are the names of the streets… It was very rote, you know… Just memorize but not, uh… There was no, if I could say, feeling…
Q. Oh.
A. I don’t know if you understand what I’m saying.
Q. So, the sighted instructors, if I’m getting you right… They wanted you to sort of memorize…
A. Um hm.
Q. …a specific area.
A. Um hm.
Q. And, then, the instructor who was visually impaired was talking to you more about using and problem-solving and getting information from an environment.
A. Yes. Uh, landmarks, um, things that would be good clues to pay attention to when it was time to reach a certain point, or whatever.
Q. What… Can you give me some examples…some landmarks that you learned or what you learned like that?
A. Uh, maybe, like, a gate that would be there all the time. Yeah, all the time. Um…
Q. What would that tell you?
A. The gate might indicate, um, this is where you stop and, you know, turn and walk straight to the bus...
Q. Um hm.
A. …to the bus stop. Um, something like that.
Q. Uh huh. Neat. So, that’s [laugh] That's interesting and, um, in terms of, um… Have you gone back since you had that, um, person who was visually impaired and gotten more instruction or did they give you a sense of, you know, now you’re finished? Whereas, it seems like the other ones maybe… I mean, why did you keep getting more services…was it because you were in school or… do you remember?
A. Uh, most of the instruction had to do with being in school, you know, in kindergarten through twelfth grade…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …uh, uh, the first guy… I think my instruction was, uh, it seems like I might have been in elementary school and then the other man was, uh, high school…junior high, high school. The first guy was elementary/junior high, the second guy was junior high/high school. And then the visually impaired person was at the college prep program while I was… That took place while I was still in high school but during the summer.
Q. Do you feel like it was too much mobility…or too slow or just the right speed…or not enough…not regular enough or… How do you feel about how much mobility you got.
A. Well, uh the training going to my high school, uh, could have been…should have been more because it was only three days and I had to take three buses, you know… As soon as he trained me one way, my mom found the problem areas and the thing had to change and it was only maybe one day that I had to get this new, you know…this new stuff in my head. So, I think that some of it could have been longer…should have been longer.
Q. Yeah. And it was really just to learn one bus route to school… I wasn’t about, as you have said, like the person…the O&Mer who was visually impaired…it wasn’t about orientation…it was about learning this one way to get to school?
A. Um hm.
Q. So, that, sort of, was lacking.
A. Yeah.
Q. In elementary school, how often did you get to see that mobility instructor?
A. Uh, uh, you know, I don’t… Maybe… It was very rare.
Q. Hm
A. Maybe… I remember him being in our school more, I think. But, at home, maybe only a couple of times.
Q. Um hm. What… How would you rate yourself now as a traveler?
A. Um, well, I am… I, I do more using paratransit or…
Q. Neat.
A. …things like that. Um, and when I have been out and had to do my internship or something like that… In Chicago, I used the public transportation. Once I know where I’m going, or whatever, then, uh, I can handle that fine. My cane skills automatically come back because I use my cane anyway.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Um, but, uh, I really prefer paratransit services and things like that now as opposed to busing it from point A to point B.
Q. Tell me why.
A. Because this is a dangerous, cruel, unsafe world we live in.
Q. Um hm.
A. And, um, it’s…it’s… I feel safer, um, using a curb-to-curb service. Uh, and, in Detroit, the bus service is not good at all.
Q. Yeah.
A. I mean [laugh] people use it all the time but it’s just not good. And, uh, it’s…it’s just… This world is cruel.
Q. Did… Had something specific happen to you, um, to…
A. Not in a long time. Um…
Q. …when you were using public transportation?
A. …yeah, um, but it didn’t really stop me from using public transportation because I continued on to use it. But I think that being in the field that I’m in and having clients in three counties… And in this city, you need transportation… You need to go by car in order to get where you have to go.
Q. Yeah.
A. It is just, virtually impossible…
Q. Yeah.
A. Some areas do not have bus transportation at all. Matter of fact, my very first job, um, when I worked at the Library for the Blind here in Detroit, uh, there was no public transportation. So I had to, uh, get a ride…excuse me…to and from my job. It was part-time, but, still, I needed to get a ride from someone.
Q. So, how did you handle that? Who did you ask?
A. I was still living at home and, uh, my mom was available so she would just drive me, you know, over to work and come back and get me later on.
Q. What year was this?
A. Um, ’76…’75?
Q. Uh huh. Did she get paid anything?
A. Not by anybody outside of me.
Q. Right. Right. Um, so what happened with the public transportation? Do you talk about it?…The incident or incidents that…
A. Oh, sure. It was, um… What was I doing? I was going to, uh, Upshaw…well, what is now Upshaw…it wasn’t Upshaw then…um, Greater Detroit Society for the Blind…to be interviewed for, uh, the rehab teaching, um, Master’s program. And, uh, I made it down no problem and I was on my way home and, um, got on the bus and when I was…I was on the bus home…coming home, I got off and as soon as I got off… I told the guy where I wanted to get off… As soon as I got off, I realized, I said, oh, my goodness, I don’t think I’m at the right place.
Q. How’d you know?
A. I… It just didn’t feel quite right. But I was already off the bus…
Q. Yeah.
A. …when I discovered that it was…that I just felt I was in the wrong place. There was something about the area, the surroundings that just didn’t seem familiar to me. And, uh, so I asked the man… No, so he had pulled off…
Q. Hm.
A. …before I could get a chance to say anything to him and, um, so then I thought, oh, my goodness. So I waited and waited and waited. Another bus came by and I asked the man if I was at the stop and I mentioned the, you know, place that I wanted to be let off, and he said, uh, I don’t know, I don’t know. I don’t see it. I don't see that name. I said, well, can I get back on and ride downtown or, you know, try to get myself where I need to be? He didn’t have time…he was in a hurry. I said, do you see a cab or anything that I could get, you know, that I could get home. I was close by, but I didn’t know where I was. And, so, um, anyway…
Q. Hm.
A. …he was not helping. He drove off.
Q. Hm.
A. So, I stood there and I didn’t know what to do and, um, I didn’t… It was a very busy street. I wasn’t even going to attempt to cross.
Q. Right.
A. I didn’t know where I was. So, then, there was a car drove up and asked--and this person asked me where was I going and I told him what happened and he said, well, I don’t see a cab but I can just take you where you, you know run you home or, I mean, uh, just take you to the bus stop. And I hesitated for a minute and I thought, but if I don’t, then what am I going to do?
Q. Right.
A. So, I got in this car and he started driving and I kept asking questions, you know… Where are we? What, uh… Do you see the bus stop, whatever. And he just didn’t…he, I don’ see it and whatever. And then I was…I, I… He said he was naming streets and he said my street and I said turn and he turned…there was only one way to turn and he turned the right…the left…onto my street…turned left. And he went down to the house and he pulled up into the driveway…I didn’t give him the address…I just said, pull up into the second driveway. And he pulled up into the first driveway, but I didn’t realize it. I jumped out of the car and, before I could get to the drive…to the porch, going up to the front steps, he was up in front of me… Where are you going. He was really… He scared me to death.
Q. Yeah.
A. And…’cause he had started talking all this stuff about, uh, well, I can come and take you wherever you want to go and…
Q. Hm.
A. …you know…all this stuff…
Q. It kind of sounded creepy.
A. It was really…it was really kind of scary.
Q. Yeah.
A. You know… Then, by that time, my family started gathering.
Q. Good.
A. I wasn’t saying anything to alert them but they all were getting home from work around that same time.
Q. Yeah.
A. And, so, he got scared because my father was walking toward him, my mother was coming out of the house behind him, my sister was on the driveway, so he didn’t have one way…any way to go but to his car.
Q. Hm.
A. So, he starts carrying on, telling my father, I didn’t rape her, I didn’t rape her, I didn’t do nothing to her…
Q. Oh, my.
A. …and he’s saying, I don’t even know what you’re talking about. So, anyway, he jumped in his car and he drove off. And that was the last of that. But the very next day, I went back to that same…went back downtown to Upshaw…
Q. Yeah.
A. And came home and, the interesting thing… My mother had called and talked to the supervisor…superintendent at the bus depot and explained what happened and, uh, so, the next day when I took the bus home, I told the man where to let me off and he pulled up and I figure he must have pulled up at the same place the other guy pulled up at the day before and he realized that that it was the wrong spot and he actually backed the bus up two blocks…
Q. Oh, my.
A. …and let me off where I was supposed to be.
Q. [laugh] Wow.
A. [laugh]
Q. Wow. What do you think, um… I mean, this was after you had orientation training from the mobility person who was visually impaired. Is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. What do you think you could have done differently? Or, or, do you think you could have, um, found your way? Or was the fear… What do you think was stopping you from, um… Did you have any experience at all in that area, or, or, what have you?
A. It’s, it’s a pretty wide open area…
Q. Yeah.
A. …as far as where he let me off. It’s extremely busy street, um, trucks and things. Just…. And four lanes…very wide, you know, with a middle area.
Q. So, did you know the name of that street?
A. I knew where I was supposed to get off at.
Q. And, and you knew that street.
A. Uh huh.
Q. Um, so, I mean, you really… Did you have a sense of, well, I either go right or left and… Did you even make plan or… You were waiting for the bus or, um… There was just basically…
A. You mean when I…when I discovered that I had been let off at the wrong place?
Q. Yeah.
A. I didn’t know where he let me off. I didn’t know if he left me off before my stop…
Q. Right.
A. …or after my stop.
Q. Right.
A. That’s what I didn’t know.
Q. Yeah.
A. And, so, I felt sort of, you know…
Q. That was really…
A. …between…
Q. …awful.
A. …a rock and a hard place.
Q. Yeah. Um, OK, now let’s see what else I’ve got here. Um, what kind of messages, um, did you get from your family about traveling by yourself, um, as a child?
A. Hm, um, that they were willing to, you know, see me do whatever I needed to do. Um, I learned to, like I say, use my cane, and go around from my house to the bus stop and back. Uh, I had to go over and walk up, like, a bridge…and overpass…and, uh, in the winter it was terrible going there. You know, the wind blowing and all…cars going underneath you and all…
Q. Hm.
A. …was rather frightening.
Q. Yeah.
A. Uh, but it’s all… Since then, you know, all wired up and everything, but it’s still…ooh…and, you know, I would do that by myself and they never said anything. I’m going to school now. OK, see you when you get back.
Q. Um hm.
A. You know, they didn’t have any problems. And then, except where the weather got extremely bad, uh, then, they said, oh, no. Forget it…we’ll just run you to school. Forget about going out there and catching three buses in the pouring down rain, or in the snow… Whatever…
Q. Did you ever get lost on your way to school?
A. No.
Q. No. Was that always… Was that public transportation or was that walking?
A. Uh huh.
Q. It was?
A. Public transportation.
Q. It was… Was that as many buses…three buses, or…
A. That was three buses to school.
Q. Wow. And, so, uh, why do you think that you never got lost on that trip?
A. Uh…
Q. Did you ever get let off at the wrong place, or no?
A. No, no.
Q. So, I wonder if that might be a recommendation that you would give, is to work with young kids on, what happens when you get off at the wrong stop.
A. Yeah.
Q. Would… That would be something useful for mobility instructors to work on.
A. That’s true, very true.
Q. Interesting. Give you some more confidence in that area.
A. Um hm.
Q. Neat. When did you first realize… How old do you think you were when you realized that you were visually impaired?
A. Um, let’s see… I don’t know.
Q. [laugh]
A. Probably, I guess it must have been before I started school. I can remember needing to…or realizing that I need to use my hands to figure out what things were and things like that.
Q. Do you remember, sort of, feeling different, or doing different from other…
A. Well, uh, yeah, um… I wanted to be like my friends in the neighborhood, and all. Um, but then I knew that I couldn’t see, so that did change the situation to some degree. Um, having grown up in my home environment, uh, I tried to be as normal as I could like everybody else.
Q. What does that mean?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Did that mean riding bikes, or…
A. Oh, um, yeah. Skating, riding bikes…
Q. Uh huh.
A. Went to Girl Scouts.
Q. Uh huh. How did you, um, do skating? Are you totally blind or did you have some vision or?
A. Totally blind.
Q. Uh huh. So, what system did you use for skating?
A. I learned to skate…to roller skate in, um… Where’d I first learn to skate. Probably in my basement, in my father’s… In my parent’s basement.
Q. Oh, neat.
A. And then, when my, my dad told me and my friend…my girlfriend that, uh, the skates were scratching up the tiles…
Q. [laugh]
A. So then her floor in her basement didn’t have tiles, so we went over there for a while. And then we graduated to outside, skating around from my house to her house and just around up and down and, you know, my balance felt good.
Q. Did you hold onto her, or… How did you…?
A. No.
Q. Did you run into stuff?
A. No, my balance was good and I guess my coordination was good. I don’t, I don’t think I ever fell… I don’t think I ever fell.
Q. Oh. Well, how did you know where you were going?
A. Probably the little cracks in the sidewalk, ‘cause I was used to walking certain areas.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And then, I could, you know, sort of, slow down if I was unsure of something and just walk.
Q. Oh. Interesting. So, how would you know to slow down? Was that that you were, you know… I’m trying to get a sense from… You weren’t holding onto her but would know if you were about to run into something?
A. Well, you can always… You know how sound bounces off one thing to another?
Q. OK. So, that… You’re good at that.
A. Yeah.
Q. Neat. Did you follow the sound of her skating or were… Or what?
A. Uh, sometimes, yeah.
Q. Sometimes you’d do that?
A. Uh huh.
Q. Any other techniques that you used?
A. Um, I don’t know. I hadn’t…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …thought of it ever.
Q. [laugh]
A. I never thought of that before, but, uh, I would… I don’t know, I would just… A lot of times, I would be just skating around in our, in our backyard.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Um, so, yeah, that’s about how I did it, pretty much.
Q. Did you, um, want to, desire to be independent…to travel by yourself…to do things by yourself?
A. Yeah. Yeah… You mean, in terms of, us, just going from one place to another…
Q. Yeah.
A. …like going to another city, whatever?
Q. Yeah. Growing up, did you…is that…
A. Um hm, yeah.
Q. How’d you feel about that?
A. I, uh… I lived in Philadelphia, I lived in Los Angeles…
Q. Oh.
A. Uh, Chicago, so, yeah, I’ve always been… My spirit has always been rather free. [laugh]
Q. Um, OK… So, now you use a cane. What kind of cane do you use?
A. Uh, it’s a folding cane with a glide tip.
Q. Uh huh. Who…where did you get that one from?
A. It’s an NFB cane…I’m not an NFB member, but it’s an NFB cane. It’s one of those that collapse…that go inside of each other. You know, all the…
Q. Sure.
A. …pieces go inside.
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah.
Q. Telescopic.
A. Uh huh.
Q. And, so how long have you had that cane?
A. Um, a few years.
Q. Two, three…
A. Uh, let me think. Four or five.
Q. How many canes do you own?
A. I own the one right now.
Q. Just one? Um, how many different mobility tools have you tried?
A. Um, um, I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve tried too many. For, like, give me an example.
Q. Oh, um, other kinds of canes, maybe, um, one of those electronic devices…
A. Canes with the ball tip… Oh, I see what you’re saying.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Um, yeah, I’ve tried a few different types of canes. The one with the ball tip is the one that I have and there’s another one…but I can’t think of what…of how to describe it. As far as electronic, seems like a long time ago, I had on some of those glasses with the sensories and you put the little ear plugs in your ears…
Q. Yeah.
A. …and, I don’t know…that was kind of interesting but, uh, I didn’t try it long enough to really form an opinion.
Q. Ah. So, the cane with the ball on the end of it…was that like a roller ball or was it not roller.
A. Yeah, it was one of those that kind of rolls.
Q. Did you like that?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. I don’t know, it just didn’t… I, I just wasn't comfortable with that…it just didn’t feel right to me.
Q. Can you describe what about it didn’t feel right?
A. I guess the clues… I wasn’t able to pick up information like I was used to picking up with a cane.
Q. Oh, OK. Um, did you ever use a rigid cane, one that doesn’t fold up?
A. Yeah, a long time ago, you know, when I was growing up, but once I got, uh… I don’t even know when I got the first folding cane. I just remember once… I don’t remember when I got it but I remember it fell apart in Chicago. I was trying to cross a street…
Q. Oh, my.
A. …and it went.
Q. [laugh]
A. It came apart all at one time.
Q. Gosh.
A. I said, oh, no, not at this point you won’t [laugh] but it did.
Q. So that was a folding cane.
A. Um hm. I think I…
Q. What did you do?
A. Pardon me…
Q. What…
A. I think I, uh… There was somebody walking…crossing the street at the same time and they just crossed me…helped me to cross and I was near my apartment, so I…
Q. Wow. So, what… So, they walked you over…or sighted guide…
A. I was, maybe, a couple of, um, sidewalks from my apartment or something like that, so I just followed the grassline and, uh…
Q. You, what… One foot on the grass and one foot on the sidewalk?
A. Or, up near the grass, you know, right… So I could tell the grass was there and then I knew where the concrete was and then when there was… When I got to where I…my, my entrance or whatever, I just made the turn.
Q. Hm. How’d you get another cane? What did you do, I mean? You got home and then what?
A. Um, you know, I don’t remember.
Q. [laugh]
A. Uh, I was interning, so it probably was easy for me to get another cane from work. I had a straight cane. Yes, I had a straight cane at that time.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And then I must have gotten another folding cane.
Q. So, why don’t you use the straight canes?
A. I don’t even know where it is now.
Q. Uh huh.
A. But, I think by me moving from place to place and whatever… You know, how things get whatever.
Q. Sure.
A. But, um, I’ve just been stuck on the folding cane and, uh, I like it better because they do fold and, um, they’re not in the way if you have to put it down and people won’t step on it and trip on it and that kind of stuff.
Q. Neat.
A. I like the convenience of a folding cane.
Q. Neat. When do you fold it up?
A. When it’s not in use.
Q. When’s that?
A. Uh, well, when I’m not using it.
Q. [laugh]
A. I set it down…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …if I, uh, you know, something like that… If I’m in a, in a room and I’m, let’s say at a conference or something…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …I fold the cane up.
Q. To walk around the conference?
A. No, if I’m sitting.
Q. Oh, sitting, right. OK. Um, now, you… Do you have any tips for using drivers? You use drivers, right you said?
A. Um hm.
Q. For your RT work?
A. Um hm.
Q. Um, any strategies or tips that you would share about using a driver?
A. Um, well, if the driver… Hopefully, the driver will be referred by…maybe referred by someone who knows who he or she is. Or, if the agency goes out scouting for drivers, you know, then, uh, they’ve already gone through some sort of process of, um, uh… How could you say? They’ve been evaluated and then as far as working one-on-one, um, let the driver know what you do…what type of assistance you’ll be needing and train them as you go. Um…
Q. What kind of assistance to you ask of drivers?
A. Usually, the driver just goes in and, uh, uh, into the house with me and… If there are forms that need to be filled out, they might fill them out. And, um, or if there… I mean, if the stove or the microwave needs to be marked… Where there’s a flat panel, I can’t see where the numbers are…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …so I would need the driver to show me where the numbers are and I’ll put the bump dots on…
Q. Hm.
A. …and things like that.
Q. Interesting. Would you go in sighted guide with him?
A. Uh, either sighted guide or… If it’s a new place, I’ll go in sighted guide.
Q. Uh huh.
A. If it’s not, then I usually just go in, you know, without, you know, using sighted guide…the driver as a sighted guide.
Q. Have you had any bad experiences with drivers?
A. Hm, hm, uh, I don’t know. I don’t think so.
Q. Um hm.
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Um, what about the paratransit. What kind of tips or strategies do you use with that?
A. Paratransit… Um, it would be nice or good if the… When the drivers of the paratransit come, sometimes they don’t… If you aren’t right at the door and you don’t hear it, you don’t know if it’s there.
Q. Oh.
A. And, uh, and then when you do, a lot times, just stick your head out of the door or step out on the porch, and they might not come out and say anything and then you have to, hello, hello, paratransit, is that you coming for me? Oh then they say, oh, yeah, yeah. [laugh]
Q. Oh, my.
A. So, sometimes they’re just not paying attention to the, uh, person as they come outside, you know. So, a lot of things need to be done more from the agency that has the drivers as opposed to, um, the person taking…using the services. Because, it’s also… A lot of times they’ll drive you…take you where you want to go and then before you get inside, they’ve driven off. Well, suppose the person that you’re going to see isn’t at home?
Q. Right.
A. Then you’re sort of stuck on the porch waiting to see what happens.
Q. Has that ever happened to you?
A. No.
Q. But, you know…you know what that feels like, so… So, they just don’t wait at all.
A. No, they don’t. They just uh, they’ll take you to the door and, I mean, um, they'll drive up and assist you off and then, um, they’ll walk you up the walkway or whatever and they’ll go back… Now, some will. Now, I have had some to wait and I can’t say that they all won’t.
Q. Uh huh.
A. But some will wait and make sure that everything’s OK, that you’re in safe and everything.
Q. Do you ask them to wait?
A. I haven’t. Uh, a lot of times, they’ll ask me, do you want me to wait?
Q. Uh huh.
A. Are you all right? Are you going to be, you know… Do you need me to wait for you or do you need to wait, d'you need me to wait and see if you’re going to, uh, need any more help, or whatever? And, you know, most times I’ll say, oh no, I’m fine. Everything is fine here, you know.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Inside, safe and sound or whatever.
Q. Neat. Um, do you have any tips or strategies for taking public transportation…the buses…that you would like to share with me?
A. Um, hm, hm, hm. I don’t know. I can’t think of anything right now, except to just… Well, maybe so. When the drivers, um, when the passenger gets on, they have to just sort of keep on reminding the driver where they want to get off at [laugh].
Q. Ah.
A. Keep reminding them, because sometimes, um, it’s necessary. They might say, I remember, I remember, or whatever, but, then again, they might not.
Q. Exactly. So--
A. In Philadelphia, um, I rode, uh, the trolley home and I had told the guy where I needed to get off and he said, OK, and I reminded him two of three times…[as if the driver-absentmindedly] oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember. And then I just so happened to doze off, when I woke up, the trolley was empty. I said, did you forget my stop? [as if the driver--excited] Oh, I sure did. Ugh.
Q. So, what happened?
A. Well, he took me all the way back downtown and I got on the other… And then when he turned around and came back, then I… ‘Cause he had turned around and he was on his way downtown by the time I woke up.
Q. Oh, gosh.
A. So I went all the way back downtown. He turned around to make the return trip and let me off and walked me, walked me across the street…which he didn’t… I could have made it OK, but I think he felt bad.
Q. yeah.
A. So [laugh] he walked me across the street [laugh].
Q. Have you ever called up to complain about a driver forgetting?
A. Uh, no, no, I didn’t. I didn’t do anything. Um…
Q. Have you ever felt like it?
A. Oh, yeah. I probably, know I felt like it, but I just didn’t do it. I don’t know… For some reason… I, maybe my anger cooled down…
Q. Yeah.
A. …or whatever and I just said, oh, forget about it. You know…
Q. Um, now, I… You were disoriented, um… You told me about that time when the driver let you off at the wrong place. Have you… Do you remember any other times when you’ve been disoriented?
A. Um um. No. I can’t think of anything like that ever again. I don’t think so.
Q. So, now, you’ve moved to, it sounds like, at least three different states to live.
A. Um hm.
Q. Now, did you do this my yourself?
A. Um hm.
Q. So, how did you, um, uh, do that? How did you… Why did you move and how’d you locate a place to live and how’d you learn the new…
A. Oh, I never… I made the
Q. …area?
A. …habit never to moving somewhere, where I don’t know somebody.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And, um, I moved to Philadelphia to get a job.
Q. Um hm.
A. I lived with a friend of my family’s. I moved to California, um, ‘cause I wanted to.
Q. [laugh]
A. I was tired of being in Detroit and I needed a change and I moved. I lived with some friends. Uh, Chicago was, um, internship and I got an apartment over there. But I knew some people.
Q. Neat. So, the first place you went was California?
A. No, the first place I moved to, um, after college was Chicago.
Q. Chicago for your internship.
A. Yes.
Q. How did you go about getting your apartment?
A. Um, because I was still in school and I had to have the apartment by the time the internship took place, um, friends of our family that lived in Chicago worked with my mom and they put their heads together and they found me a place.
Q. Neat.
A. So, that was done before I could get out of school.
Q. Neat. How did you learn your way around from your apartment to your internship site?
A. Uh, it was a one bus ride… One long bus ride and, um, I walked from my spot…the apartment where I lived… I came out of the building, you know, walked to the corner, whatever it was, and it wasn’t a busy street that I had to cross. And, uh, the bus stop was right near by and I took the long bus ride and then I, um, got off and I was a few doors from, um, the building.
Q. How did you learn that, that…
A. Well, probably my family went with me a couple of times.
Q. Uh huh. Uh, so you didn’t get another mobility instructor?
A. Uh uh, no. I was… I had to get in there and be ready to go quickly.
Q. What about the building that you were doing your internship site in?
A. Uh, that, um, hm… I don’t remember my first day.
Q. [laugh]
A. Somebody must have been down to meet me, but I don’t remember.
Q. Uh huh, and then…
A. I’ve never had a whole lot of trouble getting acclimated to buildings and learning my way.
Q. So, what strategies do you use to acclimate yourself to buildings?
A. Hm, I use the same types of things…I look for landmarks, clues…uh, mats on the floor or, um, openings where, um… I’m thinking of the [garbeled] of the building now here I go to work.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Um, there’s the front desk is there in the lobby. So, as I walk past, I’m walking… There’s a couple of mats there that were always there with an opening where there’s always a rush of air.
Q. Hm.
A. And I know that my elevators are coming up on that wall right, just past that rush of air. You know, little clues, the same as I have always used. Um…
Q. So…
A. …up on the third floor where my office is, there’s a…It runs by… There’s a little riser in the floor going from north tower just, I mean, from south tower to north tower. So, I, you know, once on that riser, OK I’m in the north tower now. Things like that.
Q. Now, do you remember on the first day coming to work there? Um, did someone…did you go around sighted guide with someone? Did you go around by yourself? What did you do?
A. Uh, I think I went sighted guide.
Q. Uh huh. Do you like that? Do you like, um, to learn buildings that way?
A. You’re saying sighted guide or what?
Q. Sighted guide, yeah.
A. Well…
Q. Is that useful to you?
A. yeah, if I can…Because of the… Even if I know, if there’s somebody nearby that’s, that’s with me, even if I’m not going sighted guide, if we’re just, you know, walking along, I can find the hallways be trail, you know, using trailing technique, um, learn my way. Learn where to turn, things like that.
Q. So, you prefer not to be holding onto them.
A. If I… Yeah, if I can just… Depending on the circumstances. Depending on the congestion of the people nearby where I am. There’s a whole lot of variables, you know. I just mold and go with the flow, and however the situation will come about. You know what I’m saying?
Q. OK. I’m going to turn…
[side B]
Q. So, if, if you get your choice… Is that what you mean by if the situation allows it? Or if it’s too many people…
A. If there’s too many people, I’ll just go sighted guide…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …and if the, um, if there’s not a lot of congestion and not a lot of people, then I’ll, um, just go with the person nearby me and, uh…
Q. Well, I’m sort of trying to bring you back to when you were first learning the building. Is that what you’re talking about, or are you just talking about day-to-day kinds of choices that you’re making?
A. Ask the question again.
Q. Are you talking about day-to-day choices, whether you’re going to go sighted guide or walk alongside somebody? Or are you talking about how you learned the building that you’re working in?
A. Uh, well, I think you originally were questioning about going to work where I am now.
Q. Uh huh.
A. So, well, um, that’s what I was thinking of, but it also depends… Um, in other locations, um, it’s a 50-50 thing. Sometimes I might go sighted guide and sometimes I might just walk with the person walking along beside me.
Q. Yes. Like in a mall or something?
A. In a mall, no. In a mall, I’m usually…I’m going to go sighted guide.
Q. Uh huh. So, would you always go with somebody to a mall, or would you call up and have one of the store employees, um, wait for you, or…
A. I usually always go with someone that I know. A friend, or whatever.
Q. Yeah. So, where you work now…Upshaw, right?
A. No, I work with the Commission for the Blind.
Q. The Commission… Do you work, uh… Is that… Do you always go out and drive so there’s just like an office there for you or do you have… Do you see clients there, too?
A. No. Uh, clients are in their homes.
Q. Clients are in their homes. So do you spend much time at the Commission building?
A. Um, two days a week, maybe.
Q. Like, sort of office hours?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, where you started work there, um, how did you get oriented to that building…this brand new space? What strategies did you use? Did you go along, like, under sighted guide or did you just explore on your own? Or, what did you do?
A. Uh, I might ask, uh, somebody, uh, where’s the ladies’ room?
Q. Uh huh.
A. And they’d say, OK, go out here and so and so and so. They give me the directions. I would go on out and, uh, um, if I needed to trail, I would trail. If I knew… You know, there’s windows around there so I’m always paying attention to the open spaces and, you know, I’m just automatically trying to pick up on anything that will give me a clue as to where I am and what I’m doing.
Q. Neat. Neat. Um, OK, so, do you travel much? Do you go to conferences, or take short trips?
A. Um hm.
Q. How do you prepare for those kinds of trips…say, to unfamiliar places?
A. Um, well, traveling to unfamiliar places, uh, conferences are usually work related. Um, if the staff is going, uh, then we’ll work it out. They’ll show me different things or, uh, if I go somewhere where there’s no staff, or if there’s a friend that’s going, we might not be in the same room or probably won’t…but, uh, um, I find out what I need to know from whoever is around that I might know. Call the desk, ask the desk, whatever. Use my same techniques to go find ice in a hotel on the floor of my…where I am, just like I would do if I were, you know…
Q. So, trailing and listening.
A. Yeah.
Q. Um, so, how would you get about the airport? Do you typically go with, um, another person when you go to conferences? Do you, sort of, always want to do that instead of going by yourself?
A. Well, I have never been, uh… I haven’t been, uh… I haven’t had to use airports…the airport for any, any conference.
Q. Um hm.
A. Um…
Q. So, they’ve always been, kind of, local?
A. Uh, yeah, somewhere within the state or whatever, like that.
Q. So, you drive with someone?
A. Uh huh.
Q. Uh huh. Um, do you, um, use any kind of maps? Have you ever found maps useful? Any kind of tactile or auditory or…
A. No, I have never tried any auditory maps. That might be interesting, but I haven’t ever had, uh, the opportunity to use any of those auditory maps.
Q. Yeah. Um, tactile maps?
A. Tactile maps…I don’t know. I don’t grasp anything much from tactile maps. They don’t help me much.
Q. Did anybody ever teach you to read them?
A. I probably learned something. I don’t know if it was a whole lot of…
Q. Yeah.
A. …extensive map reading, you know. But, uh…
Q. Uh, what one thing happens frequently when you’re traveling that you like the least?
A. I have no idea. Um, hm, I don’t know. That’s a hard question to answer.
Q. [laugh]] Hard because, why?
A. Hard ‘cause I never thought of it.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And hard because I don’t know what I’m really… I don’t know what you’re looking for.
Q. Well, I guess, um, frustrations, um, things that, you know, happen to you sort of on… Maybe on a daily basis or a regular enough basis when you’re traveling that sort of annoy you or frustrate you.
A. Uh, a lot of times people walking see your cane and step right in your face, right in your way, you know, cut you off or, um, don’t seem to care, um, or not really mindful of the fact that you’re trying to get where you’ve got to go with a cane and, and, not being rude or anything, you know, with a cane, but, at the same time, this person is sighted and they’re just walking all in your way…
Q. Right. They just don’t look out…
A. Yeah.
Q. …where they’re going.
A. Yeah.
Q. And they, they consider themselves sighted. [laugh]
A. Yeah, right.
Q. [laugh] That’s exactly what I’m talking about [laugh]
A. Oh.
Q. That was a good answer. What do you want, um, sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?
A. Ask and then find out how can they do it. How do I help you? Do you need me to take your arm? Do you take my arm? You know, don’t just say, can I help you, and then if you say, yes, they come up with their own ways of helping you.
Q. Yeah.
A. Uh, I had a woman ask to assist me across the street in Chicago once… I was getting off a bus, so she said, can I help you? And, I said, thank you… yes, thank you. And she looped her arm around my neck and I went ballistic.
Q. Ah.
A. Whoa. I just lost it. I told her whatever came to my mind and I wasn’t nice.
Q. That must have scared you.
A. It made me angry.
Q. Yeah.
A. You can assist me but you may not loop your arm around my neck. I am not a dog.
Q. Yeah. So, ask. Um, what kinds of things do you use as landmarks?
A. Uh, something that’s stationary, well that you pretty well know is going to be there. Um, a mat on the floor, a desk, um, um, whatever.
Q. Yeah.
A. You know, whatever is nearby. I mean, whatever is going to be there all the time.
Q. Neat. You belong to AER and you don’t belong to NFB. Do you belong to any other professional or consumer organizations?
A. ACB.
Q. ACB. Are you an active member with them?
A. Yeah.
Q. Are… In what way?
A. I attend local Detroit meetings.
Q. Neat. Neat. How did ADA impact you? Did you notice a difference before and after its passage?
A. Well, I like the fact that there’s Braille in elevators and on the, uh, inside panel of floors and I like going to hotels and discovering there’s Braille on the rooms.
Q. Yeah.
A. Braille menus in restaurants and, you know. Those things are quite nice.
Q. Neat. Well, that’s the interview.
A. Oh.
Q. [laugh] I do appreciate you taking the time to answer some questions and talk to me about it. I’m wondering if you would have anybody that you could recommend to me that I could, um, call and see if they’d like to do this with me. Do you have anybody… My criteria are that they’re visually impaired and that they have a job…that they’re working.
A. Oh, uh, um, yeah, well… Do they have to be totally blind?
Q. Nope.
A. Just visually impaired?
Q. Yup.
A. Yeah, I’m thinking of somebody that works… Linda Brown, but I’m going to call her and tell her that I’ve talked to you ‘cause, you know, when you called me, I didn’t know what was going on.
Q. Right.
A. No one said anything to me. Um…
Q. So, how would you like to do this? Will you call me back or shall I call you back? Or…
A. Um, I can, uh, let’s see… I know what I’ll do. I’ll call Linda with you on the phone and see if I… Even if I leave her a message, I’ll just let her know that I’m going to refer her to you and, um, give you her phone number.
Q. Great.
A. Hold on. Why is this thing… Wait a minute… Ouch.
Q. [laugh]
A. Let’s see here. At least she’s there. “Hello” Linda. “Yeah” Oh, It’s Taletha. “Oh, Taletha…let me call you back” Well, just, just let me tell you right quick. “OK” There’s a young woman on he phone from New York that is doing an oral history on mobility and all like that, and she wants to talk to somebody that is visually impaired and working and I was going to give her your name and phone number so she could interview you. She just finished interviewing me. “OK, but I’ve got somebody on long distance” No, no, no. No problem, I just wanted to make sure it was all right if I give her your phone number. “Oh, yes, it’s OK” All right, call me back. “OK” Bye bye. “OK, bye”
Q. [laugh] Super. You’re good. [laugh] So, it’s Linda Brown…with an I?
A. Yeah, um hm.
Q. OK.
A. And it’s 967 7925.
Q. And that’s area code 313. Great. Well, thanks so much.
A. Oh, you’re welcome.
Q. Is she in RT with you?
A. No, Linda works, um, at the, um… She works for GM.
Q. Neat. Neat. OK, well have a good rest of the evening. I appreciate you let me just go ahead and do this. [laugh]
A. You’re very welcome. I would have called you back yesterday, but yesterday was my birthday so I didn’t get a chance to do… Well, I didn’t want to do anything that was…that required me to…
Q. [laugh]
A. …you know… I just wanted to enjoy my birthday.
Q. Well, if I had had two wits about me, I would have noticed that when you told me your birthday. Happy birthday.
A. Thanks.
Q. Did you have any fun?
A. It’s all right. I was just sitting here before you called and I said, OK, let’s go and get a piece of cake.
Q. [laugh]
A. So, I think that’s what I’m going to do now.
Q. Good. Enjoy.
………………
Q. Yep.
A. …write a book?
Q. Yeah. that’s the idea. I’m hoping to. It’s just been real, real fascinating for me and, like I said, I’m learning a lot and I want to be able to share this with other people.
A. Are you in mobility? You’re a mobility instructor?
Q. I am, yeah.
A. How much have you… I mean, how many people have you talked to? A lot?
Q. I’ve only done about 20 so far.
A. How far do you want to go?
Q. I don’t know. [laugh] Maybe 100…maybe more?
A. Ooh. OK.
Q. I think the more people I talk to, the better.
A. And then try to transcribe and…
Q. You got it.
A. That’s the hard part.
Q. That’s the hard part. You got it.
A. I’m doing something for AER now and I’ve talked to about six women that were, uh, rehab teachers…African-American rehab teachers over the years, um, and, uh, I’m writing an information…writing down their information…
Q. Neat.
A. …in such a way that it doesn’t get…it gets so lengthy, you know. I’m trying to give everybody a substantial paragraph.
Q. Yes.
A. Because, otherwise, you could go on and on and on.
Q. [laugh]
A. [laugh] You know.
Q. Very true.
A. And, so, I’ve just been… I’ve got one more lady to call and talk to her and I’m doing the same thing you’re doing…record it and then sit down and take notes from that and try to put it in a, uh, concise way so that everybody gets the message of what this person is trying to convey.
Q. Neat. That sound like a nice project. What are you going to do with that?
A. I’m going to submit it to, uh, one of the instructors at Western and she’s going to add it into the history of rehabilitation teaching.
Q. Sue :Ponti________
A. Yeah.
Q. Neat.
A. Yes.
Q. Wonderful.
A. It’s going to be a part of the rehab teaching.
Q. Oh, fabulous. Well, that’s great. Well, I’ll look forward to reading that.
A. I’ve been enjoying this, I really have.
Q. Isn’t it great?
A. Yeah.
Q. Yeah.
A. It really is amazing. And I probably will take the same information…the same article and use it in a magazine when I get started…when I get back to doing the magazine.
Q. Terrific.
A. ‘Cause they need to know more about what people are thinking and feeling and having experienced I the field.
Q. Oh, I agree. I really do.
A. So, uh, whenever yours is in a format that’s accessible, let me know.
Q. Oh, thanks, I sure will. Absolutely.
A. Keep the phone number.
Q. I will. I have it. Thanks a lot, Taletha.
A. Thank you.
Q. OK, have a good night.
A. Same to you. Bye bye.
Q. Bye.
Interviewed by: Grace Ambrose
Interview date: 10/20/99
Transcription Lenni
Transcription Date: 2/28/01
Reviewed by: Grace Ambrose
Review date: 5/29/2001
