Frances born 1952, RLF, prefers her Dog Guide over Long Canes

We are entering the 1950s with Frances who was born 1952 seven years after the first white cane was taught to a blinded veteran of WWII. She remembered knowing that she had to wait to learn to use a long cane once she became 15. This is a terrific discussion of her dog guide use and paratransit. If you’re curious about the reality of getting around while blind – Frances is fabulous-

After Interview Thoughts

In every way I asked, it was clear that Frances got around on the arm of someone else until she got her dog guide. There is nothing right or wrong with how someone moves about their world. 

Everything you hear from Frances about long canes and her ability to travel as a child... her narrative, is "everything was fine". She could take or leave the white cane, she got around her neighborhood and school, except to cross streets, and mostly on the arm of a friend. An O&M instructor listening will hear the truth – others may be lulled into false sense that Frances was fine- or that she had a choice. She had none. She was denied all form of independent safety until she was 15. She was raised to go on the arm of another, go in groups, stick together. In 2024, I think children with MVI/B can be trusted to have more safety in their lives, from the beginning - would be best.

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Transcript

Pre: 

We are entering the 1950s with Frances who was born 1952 seven years after the first white cane was taught to a blinded veteran of WWII. She remembered knowing that she had to wait to learn to use a long cane once she became 15. This is a terrific discussion of her dog guide use and paratransit. If you’re curious about the reality of getting around while blind – Frances is fabulous-

Post

In every way I asked, it was clear that Frances got around on the arm of someone else until she got her dog guide. There is nothing right or wrong with how someone moves about their world. 

Everything you hear from Frances about long canes and her ability to travel as a child, her narrative is everything was fine. She could take or leave the white cane. An O&M instructor listening will hear the truth – others will be lulled into false sense that Frances had a choice, she had none. She was denied all form of independent safety until she was 15. 

Q. If you could just state and spell your name?

Name: Frances Osborn.

Date of birth /52

Where were you born? Atlantic city, NJ.

Where do you live now? Dallas, Texas.

What do you do for a living? I'm a Rehab counselor. For Texas Commission for the Blind.

Q. Oh, neat. I used to work for them.

A. Ah, you did? Oh my gosh.

Q. Yeah. Where did you go to college?

A. Marywood College in  Pennsylvania, in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

Q. And what's your highest degree?

A. Uh..I have two degrees. One in Bible Study, from Dallas Theological Seminary and the other in counseling from Delphi Theological Seminary.

Q. How long have you had a vision impairment?

A. Uh, since I was born. It’s a Retinolentral fibroplasia ..well they call it retinopathy onset at birth now. And they still hadn’t figured out in late 1952, what the situation was. Why kiddos were having problems. They figured it out the next year but they found with research that it's not just the fact that it was the oxygen in the incubator. It was the fact that the retinas never matured. I was only 2 lbs 8 ounces, I was 2 months early, approximately and the retinas never matured.

Q. Oh.

A. So I have light perception and I can see shadows and that kind of thing but the retinas you know the retinas are just not. I don’t know if they have anything to let the retinas grow. The retinas kind of the muscles in the eyes are also small too because, they don’t work.

Q. When did you first realize that you were visually impaired?

A. Oh, when I was little, I knew. I could see colors though and then I gradually lost the sight of the colors. I went to uh on the East coast, they had a, in Philadelphia, they had an interesting …because my family was Catholic, they had an interesting situation. Where I would go to St. Lucy Day School it was called. And it was pretty innovative back then because most of the kiddos would go to institutional schools. Well, I ended up going to St. Lucy Day school and going across the street to a regular parish school. I learned braille and all that other math, and the cube slate and all that in a school in the braille school and then across the street went to a regular parish school. And uh I don’t know how the nuns did it. They got the braille books printed up, from some organization, I’m sure. I was thinking from a Printing House probably the American Printing House. And they had enough funds and all. And you know the catholic church usually never out of funds, so they were able to run the school I don't even know if it still exists, to tell the truth, I really don’t. Then we went across the street to the parish school and had classes with regular kids, and then when I was in high school, I went to a regular catholic high school. 

Q. So you were pretty young, you say. 

A. I was like four or five. Yeah. Cause I knew I was learning something different from other people.

Q. When did you first learn to travel independent of another person?

A. I was one of these kids in the neighborhood. My dad was a marine, so he was real independent. I would wander off with friends and all the little kids and stuff in the neighborhood when I was 7 or 8. and I didn’t usually, I didn’t usually use anything. As far as actual cane use by back then it was 15. You started out at 15. Now its different. Now they start the little kiddos out at 3. But back then it was 15. And I learned cane travel when I was 15. And I used the cane on up to the time I was married and had babies and all. I had a toddler. I was pregnant with my youngest son, then I went out with a guide dog.

Q. So you say you were walking around with friends in the neighborhood. Do you remember what you did?

A. Oh, yeah. I mean we used to play hide-and-seek and stuff like that. I tried to ride a bike. The bike was a little I could ride some with training wheels, but I didn’t ever really learn how to ride a two-wheeler because…phew, we had alleys in our neighborhood. I think I tried a couple of times. The balance seemed to be a problem. I probably could do it now, because I've done exercise bikes and all that, but well I’ve ridden tandems now. I've ridden tandems since I was…you know. But at that point when I was little, I would ride by myself down the alley. You know ride training wheels and all, you know with the training wheels. And we'd play you know outside and jump rope and that kind of thing. And then the kids, we didn’t use any kind of at school when we were all walking around, we kinda helped each other but we didn’t, we didn’t use any canes or anything like that when we were little.

Q. So you helped each other did you like find the one that could see the best?

A.  Kinda yeah. We did like sighted guide you know. Helped each other. Those of us who could see a little bit better you know. Because I could see light and that always helps a lot. And I don’t know. I can’t remember it gradually going down. I may have been able to see more, but I don’t remember. I don’t. People ask me do I remember seeing colors. I remember knowing I could see colors and I might have some memory in my you know far back but I remember, tell you the truth.

Q. So you didn’t get cane travel till you were 15. Did you travel independently before that? Did you go to places by yourself?

A. Well, I would go to school and all but probably not a lot. Back then you know, most kiddos didn’t really travel independently without their families. You know what I mean? I mean I went to school on the bus and all, or my dad would drop me off in school or we’d go to school on the bus. They would put us on the bus, and we’d get off and walk--. 

Q. The school bus?

A. Uhh, it was a school bus. Yeah. it met us all at a certain point where it picked us all up. It would get there you know they had a meeting point it was downtown Philadelphia and it was about a 45 minutes drive. A lot of times my dad would drive us though.

Q. And getting around school?

A. Well the school was small and getting around…but yeah, we did that independently. Getting around the bigger school, St. Francis Day we kind of all moved as a class as one.

Q. Did you desire to have a little more freedom than you did, to travel more independently than you did?

A. Well, probably not, because I didn’t you know as a kiddo, cause, I mean I felt like I could go around my neighborhood even without a cane and all I kind of knew my neighborhood and all, so no probably not as a little kid. Maybe when I got to be about 13 or so. Because those the teenage years were hard because of ah a lot of what I would wished, and they didn’t have it when I was growing up, and I would really recommend it for somebody who has a visually impaired child, they didn’t have as much of the athletics. As I wish they did. You know they didn’t have as much of the participation type thing. The only thing they ever had was the camp up in some place up in Pennsylvania, but I never went. You know I just because, it was just one of those things where I just never got to go, but..uhh, I knew that they weren't gonna give me a cane till I was 13, you know until I was 16. But I was really glad when I got it when I was 15.

Q. So you would travel around your neighborhood you said? 

A. Yeah, yeah.

Q. Before? 

A. Uh huh.

Q. Like what? What would you do?

A. Walk around the neighborhood. The neighborhood is the—there were there’s a bunch of row houses, and so you know everybody in the neighborhood knew who I was. I’d go down to the-- try to go down. I would go down to the store, but then there you know when there was streets where there were cars and stuff my parents didn’t really want me to do that. Now when I did have the cane you know I’d go down there. I did that. And in summer, we would go down to the Jersey shore and it was a real pretty big house and all, and I'd you know travel around quite a bit, you know as long as it you know right in the area of the house. And then if I went somewhere I’d usually go with a family member. And then when I did get the cane, and then I was you know I felt a little bit more free to walk around.

Q. So at 15, your getting some instruction. Do you remember the method used to teach you?

A. He was an old guy. He was pretty mean actually (laugh). 

Q. Was he? What do you mean?

A. Oh it wasn’t like it is today where the kids you know it’s all mobility instruction. I mean they taught you safety-tips and stuff but a lot of it I learned on my own, I think aferwards. So I mean he—but he was—he was, he was pretty… you know, he'd get impatient a lot, with people who didn’t you know we walked around Philadelphia and all. He taught us he taught that back-and-forth method...you know the holding the cane out from your you know from your body, you know and tapping the cane tip back and forth, you know, he often talked about stopping at you know cross-walks and listening for traffic and all that . Because well, when I got the guide dog, my cane skills were good. So, I mean they won’t let you have a guide dog without good cane skills.

Q. So he was mean because he was…?

A. Well, because he was old (laugh). I don’t know why he was mean. I mean I just remember that from the perspective of a 15-year-old. I know. That was the first time that I really, that was the first time that I really lived with some who were blind it seemed like you know for any period of time. That was interesting. Because I had never been, I had never you know I mean I had never been exposed to that even going to school with blind kids there were other sighted kids there too. So, This was the first time that I had lived for a long period of time with people who were blind.

Q. So you were at the school for the blind?

A. No, it was kind of place in Philadelphia and I wouldn’t, I couldn’t, I don’t, I don’t it was, it was a--.

Q. Like a Rehab center?

A. Yeah kind of a rehab. center. I wouldn’t, I couldn’t tell you what the name of it was if you’d ask me. I have. It was around for years. You know. But uh it just seemed like he was the only teacher (laugh). And I don’t, I don’t know understand why that was. It was an old house in south Philadelphia, in fact I remember one night, somebody tried to come in our window and rob my roommate. It was a black lady next to me. My parents were like I don’t know if we want her there. It was in west Philadelphia or something you know. It was real interesting you know.

Q. Yeah, sounds like it.

A. Because let’s see that would have been, let’s see 52, 65 it would have been yeah well 56 right in there so I mean you know people were doing all kinds of stuff. I mean you know robbing wasn’t any big deal then. But still it was, my parents weren't real thrilled. It was an 8 or 6- or 8-week course I think kind of like over the summer. It seemed like. It seemed cause on the weekends I got to go down to the shore, which I really loved. It was the New Jersey shore, so I was real happy about that. And I guess I my cane-skills and all that.

Q. So did you like start indoors with this guy without a cane and then move to using--?

A. I think we probably we did. That’s been a long time ago, but I'm assuming we did. But it wasn’t a too long I don’t think until we were out on the street. I mean until you know he had us on the streets and stuff.

Q. And so he would say, go to some place or?

A. Well I mean I’m sure we did independent travel. I, I you know it’s been to be honest; I don’t remember a whole lot about my cane travel experience you know the instruction. I mean I like I say I mean I’m, I’m, I’m sure he I’m sure he did the right way. Do it. Cause he must have at least given me the basics because after that I was fine. I mean I was really always good about orienting myself to places and then I learned to go and that kind of stuff. So, he must have done something right. Now I will tell you I prefer the guide dog to a cane.

Q. Yeah. I’m looking forward to talking to you about that. I just sort of want to walk you through just a little bit. Do you think he took advantage of what you already knew when he started to teach you?

A. Well, no, I think it was the other way around. I think he thought that we were all stupid and he needed to talk to us from the ground up. And there were things that I was able to catch onto, you know, and I always remember that his name was Ben, but don’t remember anything else about him, except that he was old. You know, from my perspective, a 15-year-old. Most of the other people were older, there was only one other girl who was 15.

Q. What do you think were some of the things that you already knew going into the training, that he didn’t realize?

A. Ahh, probably how to orient myself and listen for sounds and the barriers you know the barriers you know how to listen for the barriers. You know I mean the sounds coming off of a wall or something, you know. Listening for traffic and knowing that traffic went one way and you know…they didn’t have right on red back then, and the traffic was a lot less.

Q. Right.

A. And actually, Philadelphia, downtown Philadelphia is not a bad place to travel because the streets are all pretty square. He didn’t go into--I'm pretty sure that he didn’t go into the big deal about, you know, the streets are all kind of angled and stuff. But they didn’t have many of those back then.

Q. Well, what were some of the things that he taught you, maybe that you didn’t know?

A. Well, he obviously taught me how to do the cane technique, you know, sort of you know tap it back and forth across my body and listen and, and a take a cane and, and um..what was it called, to, to, to, to go along the shoreline edge or whatever you know that kind of shorelining or whatever. And then come to the corner. And um…Actually, I really don’t use the cane very much.

Q. So now you use a dog guide.

A. Hmm.

Q. How many different types of mobility tools have you tried?

A. Well, really just the cane and the guide dog.

Q. What kind of cane were you using?

A. One of those, well I was using a straight one when I learned, but then I was using, but then I was able to use a fold-up cane. I'd carry it in my purse, cause I worked in downtown. Well, when after I got out of college I used all, all the whole time like I said I think a lot of mine was self-taught to tell you the truth. And because I worked, you know I lived on-campus and everything it was away from home and all and I used it a lot of times.

Q. Give me some examples of things that you taught yourself.

A. Well, I think I taught myself, you know really how to listen, how to do the traffic and the way, the different ways of using the cane finding things, you know.

Q. Like what?

A. Objects and that kind of stuff. And probably, I think I'd say that he taught me that deal about following it. Following the deal and, and you know noticing objects and I may have taught myself that, to tell you the truth.

Q. Uh huh, 

A. Ummm…

Q. So what about listening to traffic, did you improve upon or teach yourself?

A. Oh, well, you know I was, I was in a lot of different situations where oh an. You know where I would, you know I went of course, I used it in high school, when I got back, um but it was a suburban high school and all, so it wasn’t like I used it. I didn’t seem like—well maybe after that summer. I don’t think so…too much after you know, after I got back. It was just one of the things. But I mean I did listen for a lot of traffic when I would go down to, you know, the shore every summer and that kinda thing. It wasn’t until really when I was in college that we had the--you know. Where we traveled around Scranton, and that kind of thing. Although my campus was off, my campus wasn’t in Scranton it was kinda above Scranton. Then that's when I really started to travel—uh—when I really started to use it though, was and it did prove to be a problem because traffic over there was--junior year I spent overseas in France, because I was a language major. And when I got to Dijon the traffic was just ridiculous. And there was the guy, the guy who was the head of the tour I mean he was just real worried about the fact that and I mean it was. I think it would have been a whole lot better with a dog, I don’t know. People who were used to it over there but-- there was islands in the middle and then the cars. And they are nuts. You know. I don’t know if you ever been to Europe or not.

Q. Sure.

A. But anyway, what I ended up doing was moving to a small--down much moving to a small convent school where the traffic could be to walk around town and everything a lot easier. From Dijon to Berne, and Bern was a smaller town. And I ended up meeting a French family and staying with them. And so, I was able to use my cane skills a little better down there. But the traffic-- I was on the--they thought about letting me go get a dog, but I would have had to go to Switzerland. You know I didn’t want to take—well I couldn’t. Well, I couldn’t take the time off you know from the school year. You know but they thought about it even back then.

Q. So all these new places, colleges, cities. How would you find your way around for the first time?

A. Well, lets see, a lot of times, I would…you know, like my college my roommate was pretty good about describing stuff. You know I would ask, or if I went with somebody, I would just really try to orient myself to a place. You know if I had to go back there by myself. It was a little bit, like I said, it was little harder in Europe, but when I really worked on trying to find my way around and uh in the overseas, and that was hard to go back and forth to school because again the route was pretty, the route was pretty hard. And the problem was, it wasn’t an actual mobility instructor. You know that we were  kinda unprepared for that. You know. Uh so then when I went to the smaller town, it was a little bit easier, because the school was in the same place that I lived at, so I found my way around and you know had somebody show me you know for the first time.

Q. Neat.

A. Where my room was and that kind of thing. And then out in the street Sue and I would walk in town. I would go, you know usually go with folks but then I'd be able to go around by myself.

Q. Yeah.

A. Usually, you know if I went with somebody, I'd ask you know really, and that’s pretty much you know of course with a guide dog. Well, when I got older, let's see, if I was working or whatever and you know if I knew the names of the streets, I don’t have a problem if I'm out in an area and I don’t know where to turn—to ask. With a guide dog it is a lot easier though.

Q. So how is the guide dog easier?

A. Oh, it’s easier because you know you just--they just, sort of you know if I'm in a situation where I don’t know where something is. I go it’s down that way and they point, and I point and they go yeah it's down that way. And you know and it pretty much tell me where it is and I just tell her. You know it’s not I don’t have to know every nook and cranny. And you know that kind of thing. I just have to sorta know, you know, the general, general direction and you can still find it.

Q. Right.

 A. And that's what knowing every little thing, every leaf on the sidewalk and all.

Q. Right.

A. You don’t even know what the obstacle is, but it doesn’t really matter, because it's gone. You know. Whereas with a cane, you know, it was a, it, it. You know I used to walk pretty fast with a cane, but I know I can walk a lot faster with a guide dog. You know. Again, because I don’t have to know what the obstacles are.

Q. Yeah. 

A. And uh I remember when I went back in 1993, I went back and used a guide dog back in Philadelphia. It was terrific. Because my friend said, well now meet me down at work. She went home, or she went to work. And I left from her house and got a bus and all, and I walked, and I remember walking really fast and getting down there and realizing that I'd even gone farther. Because I remembered the names of the streets, you know, when I got back to Philadelphia, you know, it was terrific.

Q. So you even went farther or passed it because you--.

A. Yeah right... You know it was really, really neat. I mean, you can, you can really enjoy your surroundings more and more. You know. Because you're not, I'm not thinking of every little thing, you know wondering whether the next obstacle or concentrating so hard on learning the cane-- really, when you're using a cane-- you and the cane, you know you're doing the cane. You know its down in front of you, you know you don’t put it straight out in front of you, you put it angle it out from your body but then you go back and forth with it, but you're only as good as--your cane is only as good as you are. Really, you know I mean you have to concentrate. It takes a lot more concentration to, to be out in mobility you know to be out in traffic and all that. And as far as getting across the street, you know you can get across the street at a higher speed than you know than with a cane really.

Q. Right.

A. You know, especially, since there's bumps in the street. A lot of times there's islands, now I'm not. I'm still not too fond of the right on red. Because no matter how long you wait for those right on red, wait for the cars to go right, you know, on the red, and then you have very little time to get across the street. But New York. I don’t-- do you live in the city?

Q. No, but I work in the city.

A. You work in the city. Yeah, I mean it's a lot more you know it’s a lot more squared off. And there is that’s the nice thing about a big city is people travel so these, you know the rest the suburbs, people don’t travel across the street. You can. People don’t walk across the city… Especially down here in Texas. There are 8 lanes, and you know, highways that you have to cross.

Q. Yeah.

A. You know.

Q. How do you get to and from work?

A. Right now I use Paratransit. The only reason that I use Paratransit rather than regular buses is because it's two buses, and at the end of the road, there at the para where it gets you back and forth to work there’s that, there’s that case in point there’s Northwest highway and Abrams. You have to cross Northwest highway and it's very dangerous. People do not wanna cross--people, matter of fact it has not the mobility person has said that I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna certify it as a safe place to cross. Because by the time you wait for the right on red, you're, you’d be, you know, in deep trouble. You won’t be able to get across because it is about an 8-lane highway. So, until they get something. They were gonna put an audible signal in at Fischer and Abrams but and that’s fine. I mean I don’t even think they really need to put. That's not as even-that’s not bad at all. Although Abraham's is pretty bad traffic. But Northwest highway they need to do something. If they do, I’ll go ahead and use the bus. You know. Because Paratransit takes you to the door and drops you off, you know.

Q. So how does that work? Are you on their regular schedule?

A. No, I had to make the rides. I lost my subscription because I was in Austin a lot for training last year. And I had--then one of co-workers, Shirley Taylor got a subscription for me, but then I lost it because I didn’t call in the right places and cancel. I canceled it just wasn’t the right place. So, they're gonna--I'm hopefully gonna get a subscription soon. They have this thing where they want to do this automated deal where you call in not at the peak time so you're not in the queue which if you get in the line, it’s a pain. But that part is, that part is pretty stressful.

Q. What's that?

A. About having to call in every time (yawn) excuse me every two days. It's kinda stressful.

Q. So, you're using a lot of terminology I'm not familiar with. The queue and the—

A. Well, being in the queue on the phone. Being in a queue where you're 20 in line, and you're 

Q. It tells you that?

A. No, you just have to go through the busy signal and try to get through. And when you finally get through, then you can make a ride. And then, you pretty much go when they tell you. You tell what time you have to be there, so it varies, the times that they pick you up varies.

Q. Ohhh.

A. Unless you have a subscription. Yeah, I wouldn’t mind if-- I would use two buses, frankly though I don’t know if I want to use two buses. The transportation down here is not like the east coast.

Q. Right.

A. Because you guys have it real easy in terms of transportation.

Q. Oh, yeah, we do. Absolutely do.

A. Because even the suburban buses, you know it takes about 4 or 5 to get you where you want to go. A lot of people will use the cabs, and a lot of people will use the Paratransit and stuff because it’s easier so. Now, Austin is not as bad. Austin's not bad. I've been down there for training in Austin and Austin is not bad. In fact, we fly down to Austin, you know out of Love Field get the plane. Now, this time we're going to be going into the new airport in Austin. My co-worker and I. Usually, well see Dave and I, both have said we can get around the airport Love and Austin’s old airport by ourselves, but this new one is a lot like DSW. So, I might have to need some assistance till I learn how you know what the airport's like.

Q. So, the Paratransit, now they come to your driveway?

A. Yeah, they come to the door.

Q. Do they, sight guide you out to the--

A. Oh, no, I just walk out the bus.

Q. You just walk out to the bus…And have they ever dropped you off at the wrong place?

A. Oh, they tried one time and I found out what they were gonna do and threw a fit and told them no. Well, I got out and walked into a grocery store and was gonna call, and complain to her, because what she had done was, I used to do independent counseling and she was gonna drop me off at my one of my clients' houses. And I was coming home from work, and she'd got it all screwed up on the manifest. Well, I can’t, I was just going to drop you there. Well fine, let me off here at the grocery store and I will find my own way home. So, she finally came in and she had called her despatcher and the dispatch said "Yeah, we were the ones that made the mistake. Go get her and tell her." They tried, but I wouldn’t let 'em.

Q. So what happens? You get on the bus and they say where they're going to bring you to?

A. Oh, they already have a manifest. They already have a list of places of where they’re--you're not the only one on the bus. It's a shared ride thing. So yeah, they have the you know they’re going to take me to work which is 55 Abrams, they already know where they're going to take me. So, then they just drop me right off there.

Q. Do they…so when you get on the bus they go, hello we're taking you to 55 Abrams.

A. Oh, they already know that. They don’t need to tell you where they're going to take you.

Q. so how did you find out...well, what 'm asking is, how did you find out that they were taking you to the wrong place to begin with?

A. Oh, because, she was going up, instead of going--I used to work off of Arapaho and I knew how to get to--what you do is turn right on Arapaho and go down I’m like. And I knew she'd turn the wrong way ‘cause I could tell she'd turned the wrong way. I said, “where are you going? She said, oh I’m going to this and that--and I said, wait a minute, why are you taking me over there? I can’t remember the name of the client’s address. She said it’s on the map. I said, I don’t care about the map. I don’t know what you're talking about. So then she well I’m new. I said well I'm not getting off the bus. I said, turn around, you're like 10 minutes away from where I live (yawn) just drop me off down there. And she said, oh I can’t do that. I said, fine, drop me off this bus—this grocery store right here, wait and I'll call someone, I’ll call a neighbor or something. You're ridiculous. Or I'll wait for another bus or something like that. I could probably get a bus right on Arapaho. (sounds of bus driver objections) Yeah you can drop me off because I'm not going to my client's house. Because then I knew that if she dropped me off there, then one of my client's family would end-up having to pick me up err-bring me back home.

Q. Right.

A. And the client lived over there off at Webb chapel, all the way down in the area of Dallas that is not a good place to go at night. I don’t mind going there during the day, I just didn’t particularly want to do that at night. I was counseling over there at the Lighthouse, as one of my internships and occasionally I would. That was just only one client I ended up seeing outside, because she was bed ridden. 

Q. So that was good that you noticed that they'd made the wrong turn.

A. Oh, yeah, but if I get on there, I mean most of the time you know they're pretty good. Because now they confirm it with a computer and all that. That very really rarely happens unless they screw up, their computers are down or something like that.

Q. Do you ever take the taxi?

A. Oh, I’ve taken a taxi when I can’t get a ride. I have a couple of taxi drivers that I use. I don’t like it because it’s expensive.

Q. Expensive. Have they ever driven you around where you're not supposed to go or dropped you off at the wrong place or--

A. Well, no, because I get to know the taxi drivers. Now that one time the one guy didn’t show-up. I liked this guy real well although I haven’t used him since. Well, I tell him, you cost me 20 bucks and you made me late for work. Because you didn’t show up, I had to get another taxi.

Q. How did he cost you money?

A. Because normally he would charge me less. You know because he’d charge me less than a regular taxi. He wouldn’t charge me the full meter charge. He did that for some of his personal clients. I had to call a regular yellow cab.

Q. Yeah, so at work, do you use a driver, or do you just work in the building?

A. Oh, yeah, work, yeah. We do, we have drivers.

Q. Do you hire your own driver.

A. Oh, yeah and that's always a problem.

Q. Why's that? 

A. They get people, and they don’t pay them enough.

Q. What do you look for in a driver?

A. Well, basically somebody who's dependable and who can read a map skill. They should kind of know where they're going. A lot of times you have to tell them give them help with the directions. Some of them are better than others about reading maps that is. I have someone now that I like real well. You have to help the, you know, help them out with it and with the directions and hopefully they follow them. Because my territory is spread out. I've got Alice county, so I've got to go down to Wasauhatchi. I don’t know my way around Wasauhatchi either. I don’t go down there very often. I'm beginning to know my way around Wasauhatchi.

Q. Do you, does the driver, assist you at all in you?

A. Oh, in the job? Yeah, a lot of time, there's the forms, and I let her help me fill in the forms for the application. Now if I’m by myself, I go to Parkland every other Tuesday, and I usually do that by myself, I fill it out on my braille lite and I come back and fill it in at the office with my RA you know. Or I fill it in on the computer and my RA fills it in the paper form. People sign the paper application.

Q. What's an RA?

A. A Rehab Assistant. What do you do for the Commission?

Q. Oh, I was an O & M instructor.

A. Aah. Well okay.

Q. So, you have an RA?

A. Yeah, every counselor has an RA. And they do all the bill paying and that kind of thing. The bill paying and the vouchers and you know any kind of mail. They do all that kind of stuff.

Q. Do you train your own driver and RA?

A. Well, yeah, pretty much. Yeah, the driver the RA. I've had. I’ve unfortunately gone through several RAs, because I share an RA with another counselor and one left, she moved. And then we had one that came. We were going to share her, and she couldn’t handle the job and she left. We’ve got this other one now, so the other counselor that I’m working with is pretty demanding, so it’s hard to we don’t know how long the RA will stick around. Unfortunately, I've gone through several and then there was a period where I didn’t haven’t any. And I had to use somebody in the other office, but that was actually fine because I used an administrative tech who'd been there for years and Ruth and I got along real well and we had a great time. I would email her something she would do it and I didn’t have to worry about it. I didn’t actually have to constantly look over my shoulder, hmm I wonder if that got done. Because they can screw up your files real bad. That’s not good.

Q. Oh, right. Write the wrong thing or file it the wrong place.

A. Well I do all my own contact reports. They can screw up vouchers or they can give them in late you know there’s all kinds of stuff. How long ago did you work for the Commission?

Q. Back in 90, 91.

A. 90, 91. Did you actually work for the Commission, or did you work for the Lighthouse?

Q. Commission.

A. Oh, so the Commission must have had…because we use the Lighthouse people now. 

Q. Oh, wow. I was in Austin.

A. Oh, okay. 

Q. Yeah, I went out and worked with all kind of people and drove a lot. 

A. And what about Cris Cole yeah did you go to Cris Cole?

Q. Oh, yeah, I did my internship at Cris Cole.

A. Yeah, I hadn’t been down there. The first time I’d been down was when I went to training lecture.

Q. Yeah? So, with airports and taking planes, what do you usually do about travel in that respect?

A. Well, when I go in, I usually, like I say with Austin, I pretty much can get around Austin by myself because I go through those check-out you know those check in point and all and they’ll say the gate's down that way. And I can walk down and ask you know a bunch along the way where the gate is. 

Q. Is that a big difference with a dog?

A. Yeah. I would do it on my own if I had a cane. Cause there's so many people. (yawn) You know what I mean. You would have to have to try and get a path where with a dog. A dog kind of makes a path for you, really. And that’s what they're supposed to do really. You know.

Q. Have you ever had anyone refuse service...because of the dog?

A. Oh, gosh. Probably some restaurants have but.

Q. Taxis, never?

A. Oh, yeah, probably one time with a taxi, once had to take my son to the doctor, so I had to leave her home. But I told the taxi I was gonna report him.

Q. So what did you do? How did you get around if you left it at home?

A. Well, I was just with my son. It wasn’t any big deal. But, I would never, well I could I would take my cane. But I would never um--some people don’t take their dogs in the field. I take my dog on the field all the time. Even if people that normally would have a problem with the dog, unless they’re going to tell me that allergic. If the consumer is going to tell me that they're allergic to dogs, then I probably won’t take her. But I like having my independence. And some folks sometimes don’t take their dog. They use them when they go out they use their cane, but I will prefer to take her. This is my mobility tool. You know, your telling me you're afraid of my dog is not gonna cut it with me. I can go in and I can control my dog and I can, you know, the fears I can get around. You know that's just the way I work you know. I don’t want to say how I feel about everybody else. But some counselors though that don’t take their dogs in the field. Their choice. Their choice. I would rather be able to always want to have that option of if I’m in a situation that’s not a good situation of just getting up and leaving. A whole heck of a lot easier, you know, with a dog. You know, you can always walk out of a situation, you can even walk down the street and get away from a bad situation with a dog a whole lot faster than you can with a cane. But that’s just my own opinion. I mean, if you are in a taxi, and they took you to the wrong place, or they got abusive or they got sexually abusive or whatever. You know, you can get out of the damn cab and leave. You know a whole lot easier than you could, you know. Because I think people approach you different. You know I go to Parkland ever other day and Parkland is a zoo.  And you know, I get around Parkland a lot better than I would otherwise.

Q. Have you ever been disoriented?

A. Oh, yeah. I'm sure I have. But I can, but with a--the nice thing about with a dog is that I can ask. And the nice thing about a dog with Heida, she'll take me to a place where I can reorient myself. You know, take me to a door or something like that, you know.  So, they kinda reorient you. They may not know where they're going, you know. What can I say?

Q. So when you get disoriented, you would go to a door? How did that help?

A. Well, go outside or whatever. Maybe or go to a door and find out you know if there's offices around or whatever but, I'd go in and ask somebody.  I mean I don’t have a problem that way.

Q. What would you ask, usually?

A. Oh, I'd ask, where I needed to go. I mean you know. I need to go. You know could you tell me where such and such is? And they go yeah, it’s down that way and I point. You know oh yes. Because it’s tough getting around Parkland. I mean as much as she knows Parkland pretty well. And she pretty much knows. You know I still ask. I know. It doesn’t matter to me. I figure there’s probably I wouldn’t have asked the same person twice at the same time cause it's not. It’s hard to see too. The openings and all. It’s not that easy getting around. I never did have a mobility lesson down there at Parkland. I probably should. Because I went with one of the other counselors and he was kinda worthless in that area.

Q. What is Parkham?

A. Parkland. Parkland is the city hospital.

Q. Oh, I see.

A. Parkland Hospital. I have to go to the Ophthalmology clinic and take out the patients.

Q. How do you feel about traveling to unfamiliar places?

A. It doesn’t bother me. I don’t mind. I wouldn’t mind it at all because you know I mean like this summer I went took the boys down to South Padre and they kept telling me, Mom you keep trying to lose us. I go, yeah, that's the idea (laugh). Or actually, but I mean the island was little enough and I was able to start walking around the island it was really—it was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. And they didn’t want to go at the same time I did, and all that you know so I’m like, “nooo” I’m really trying to lose you guys. They go “well we try to find you” I go “yeah well” you know. They finally found me but. Yeah. No, I like it. It’s fun.

Q. So, that was a place where you just wanted to just explore on your own? 

A. Yeah, and I like the beach too. I really enjoy walking up and down the beach by myself. But see, but then you lose your point of entry. ‘Cause you come down on to the beach and you'd lose your point of entry. So, I'd go and you know ask you know, I'd walk up the beach and either run into a hotel or run into somebody's condo or something like that and ask how many blocks down is such and such. Well, the nice thing about South Padre is they have these little cabs that will take you anywhere on the island for 4 bucks so it didn’t matter whether I lost that point of entry or not, really, because well usually those boys would come and find me. And so, but and then when I wanted to go in the water, Chris took Heida back to the hotel so I just stayed right there on where we were. We weren’t right on the--it would have been nice if we'd been on the hotel but we were across the highway. Now that couldn’t cross by myself because there were no traffic lights. So, I'd get the boys to walk me across the street. We should have stayed right on the beach. It was a bad weekend they didn’t have enough—uh well, we couldn’t get reservations from right on the beach. I tried—which would have been nice. Cause then I would have figured out a way to tell that I was getting closer to my hotel. Somehow figure it out. You know or at least ask you know. But uhm but yeah, I’d really like to I’d like to get a place on the beach cause I think a guide dog would be really good. They would, if you lived there, they would know what point of entry to go back up towards your place. So, you’d know. There would be no guessing game.

Q. What do you do to prepare for travel to unfamiliar places?

A. Nothing really, well, whatever anyone else would do. I mean as far as the Austin airport. I mean for the first time that I went down I was with someone. I think I was with one of my co-workers with David. He’d gone down we went to the hotel and all. He showed me where Cris Cole was, he’s blind. But uh I I would just. See Heida is really good about following so once I'd did you know once or twice, I just felt pretty familiar. I still don’t know my way all over the Cris Cole although its pretty easy to find. I know most of the place.

Q. How do you establish your position in the environment?

A. Oh, you know, listen for sounds. Kinda remember which way I had come maybe. Try to go back to that point of entry. Like if I came down that hall and go back to that and kind of regroup and figure out.

Q. Have you used, or do you use maps of any kind?

A. No not really. No, I’ve never done braille maps. I’m just no good at braille maps. Although I'm real good with directions and kinda knowing streets and all, you know just knowing where the streets and which runs east and west. Because you have to with the handiride drivers. You’re right I mean you kind of do need to know where you’re going. Because a lot of times get new drivers, and they don’t. You want to get them, show them the best way to get there.

Q. Right.

A. Like with Wasauhatchie if I were to ride around with somebody who can give me  basic orientation to Wasauhatchie, I'd probably be okay.

Q. What would you want them to tell you?

A. I'd want them to tell me the difference, the main first the north and south streets. You know the main north and south streets, and then what to expect the different east and west streets off that. And then you know the different main points in town. Like I know well happen to know that the courthouse and square is on main street. It’s kind of like right in the center. And around the square is like different shops and all. And then from there you can pretty well find your way. You know and then there’s this area where one street where you cross over and then you get over and then you get into a whole new section of town.

Q. Yeah. What one thing that happens frequently when you’re traveling that you like the least?

A. Ohhh, somebody giving me wrong directions (laugh).

Q. Yeah.

A. Or crowds. Crowds are a pain in the butt.

(end side one)

Q. Wrong directions? What would happen usually?

A. Well usually they would, what would happen is that they would, um, you know that you would tell them, you would ask them something and they don’t really know, and they would say well they think it's down this way or something like that. You know and they would, they would just tell you completely wrong directions. The opposite way. You know? I guess my problem is that I think everybody ought to know where they're going.

Q. Or at least, admit when they don’t. 

A. Yeah right.

Q. So you can ask somebody else.

A. Because I would. I remember I used to walking around our neighborhood a lot especially when I was—well I was training with the first one, this is my second guide dog.  When I was training with the first one, I came back home and I was walking around a lot. And even when Ambi was before I started graduate school, I’d be, I’d be out walking and stopping their cars it’s like. Cause see my neighborhood has lot of zig zag streets and I will admit that it was a lot easier to get around with a dog than with a, than with a cane. Because the dog, they would remember--you know they’d remember more than—I mean I could go with Ambi. Now I don’t know if Heida ever would get to that point. But with my first dog I could just walk and then finally tell Ambi, “find the house”. And no matter where we were in the neighborhood she’d go back and find the house. I wouldn’t need to really pay a whole lot of attention. But anyway, people would come by, and I'd ask them or they'd ask me different things about how to get here or there. And I got to know the streets real well and my neighborhood it's pretty hard to get around. My immediate neighborhood at least. 

Q. So you would give other people directions?

A. Pretty much, Yeah. Because they'd be, you know, they'd be like I've been riding around all evening, and I can’t find this party (laugh). I remember they stopped me one time. You know. But you know a lot of times. Now one time I walked out late, and I guess I did get—I’m trying to remember when it was I did get a—I think I did get disoriented and I ended up, up on Big Springs road. But I just followed Ambie and she, or was it, yeah it was Ambie and she did kind of get back so I just let her pretty much.

Q. But you wouldn’t do that with your present dog?

A. Heida. I didn’t walk as much around the neighborhood with Heida. Because I started graduate school and Heida and I just we were too busy, and I was working. And stuff like that although Heida probably would by now. She’s almost. She’s nine, she’ll be nine in December. I’ll be getting my third one probably in about a year.

Q. What's that like to change over dogs?

A. Oh, hard. Because you know you have different personalities. You’ve got to kind of retrain them all over again. I mean they come you know with good basic training but you gotta retrain them for what you want. You know.

Q. Like what?

A. Well, like you got to train them you know how you want them to act and you especially depending upon what situation you’re in. I mean for the next dog that I get I want a dog that will be okay about sitting under the desk all day because a lot of times that's what I do. You know, I don’t want a dog that wants to get up every five minutes. Can’t handle her. So, you know I’m gonna want a real calm dog. I’ll tell them that. Although I’ve told them I really want the best dog in the string. That’s always a good thing to ask for.

Q. The best dog in the what?

A. In the string. In the you know dog string. You know in the train—in the training. If you ask for the best dog in the string usually you know… instead of asking for a particular breed or whatever you know. 

Q. Ohh. So, according to them, what's the best dog of all the dogs? 

A. It really varies, I think. Whenever you can find somebody that you know would be really good with obedience, and really catch on really well, and be really good with orientation probably and as far as you know the ones that are trained really well.

Q. Where do you go?

A. I go to Guide Dogs. This time I will go to their Oregon campus for a change of pace.

Q. The other ones in California?

A. Uh huh.

Q. What do want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?

A. Well if it's a really, really busy like 8-lane highway, I wouldn’t mind--I would prefer, I would like them to walk across, at least next to me. They don’t have to take my arm or anything, but I'd like them to walk across, you know, with me. Mainly because then they can see that stray car that’s trying to make that right on red, you know what I mean? Well now see uhm pretty much just let me do--let the dog do her thing. Not to interrupt what she’s doing.

Q. Have they tried to interrupt? 

A. Yeah, I mean you know people are curious about the dogs and all.

Q. What do they do?

A. Oh, they'll ask about her and all that. They'll ask about—to be honest, I don’t know you haven’t been in Texas very long. The people don’t walk around in Texas. They drive (laugh). There's not that many pedestrians. You know probably even in like, like well suburban neighborhoods, you’ll see people walking and all. You know out, which is nice, and I do that, you know. But that’s but as far as walking around downtown. Nobody goes downtown Dallas. You know unless you go to the west end or something. It's not like New York where people walk around all the time. 

Q. Right.

A.  You know. Most people don’t walk around. Everybody’s in their car so it’s, there’s really not a lot of. Like well for the mall. Alright I’ll take the mall for an example I guess. Basically, for the mall I just want them to just you know cause I’m walking around the mall or whatever I just want them to you know get out of my way. Is what I really want them to do. I mean I would rather that—some people just stand there right, you know, in front of the dog and kind of watch. You know like excuse me; you know just keep walking. You’ll be fine. You know ‘cause the dog you know like I say they make their own path. You know so, and I go to the mall and all but I'm not, I'm not a big fan of malls. You know I'd rather go to one of those warehouse stores or whatever.

Q. So do you usually go with somebody, or do you go shopping by yourself at the mall?

A. Well I go, well I go to the grocery store by myself but for the warehouse store or whatever yeah because I need the car, you know what I mean. Or the malls, or if I go to the mall or if I go to Walmart or whatever, you know, I could go by myself. I wouldn’t have a problem with that. It’s just, you know, more enjoyable going with somebody.

Q. So do you usually get then some store assistant or something?

A. Yeah if I go by myself I usually you know go ask for somebody in the store to help. I’ll walk around in the department and look some myself but then you know usually to actually purchase something I’ll go up to the counter. Like I say, malls I mean; they’re not you know they're okay. I’m not one of these people that, I don’t know. I really don’t. The lady I work with really likes malls. We keep teasing each other about how we’d go-- I’d rather go with somebody; the experience is much better.

Q. How do you handle being lost or disoriented?

A. I don’t usually get lost or disoriented. That’s funny you know. But like I said before, I just, you know, I’ll find a place where I remember where I was or I’ll go ask somebody. You know. I don’t panic or anything. You know just go and ask somebody.

Q. What kind of things do you use as landmarks?

A. Well, like different, if the ground changes or noise, or where there's a doorway, or that kind of thing. If there was a store, if say I wanted to find my way back to another store or something. You know or steps or you know, the different sorta things in the environment.

Q.  When you go into a place for the first time, how do you locate the door?

A. I ask her to “find the door”.

Q. Find the door and s-

A. Uh huh, that’s a command they understand. 

Q. Uh huh. So, does that get you to a lot of doors and then you have to decide which one is the right one or?

A. Well usually places don’t have a lot of doors. I mean you know the front door. If I got dropped off or something like that at a front door or you know usually, she’ll go to a door and then I go inside and if it doesn’t feel like it’s the front entrance we’ll walk around the building or whatever you know. But usually, she goes to the main door they’re trained to do that.

Q. Neat, have you ever been injured when traveling?

A. Nope.

Q. Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?

A. Oh, I'm the Recording secretary for Texas Federation for the Blind.

Q.  Part of the National Federation? 

A. Nope. It’s an independent.

Q. Independent.

A. Texas Federation for the blind is an independent, Texas Federation of the blind, I’m sorry is an independent organization on its own.

Q. Does it have any similarities to the National one or? 

A. uh, nn. 

Q. No. 

A. No, it’s totally independent.

Q. What's the goal of the Texas federation?

A. Well, we usually the goal is to you know help blind people live independent lives. And we you know we give a lot of scholarships, and that kind of thing. Been around for about since about 1950.

Q. Oh wow. Neat.

A. A friend of mine got me involved in it. Up till about '94 I never, never was involved in you know. I had very few blind friends really, you know. I was involved in you know, my church and all that. And I was married up until 92. You know, you know then I was going to school and all and they got me involved in the Texas Federation.

Q. Neat. How did ADA impact you? Do you notice a difference before and after its passage?

A. Not particularly I mean honestly it didn’t really affect me very much (laugh). I mean I think it's a good tool. I think it’s one of those things. Again, it’s a tool I think. But I went to an ADA conference and we were talking about it and they said you know. You know it’s better to do negotiations. It didn’t impact much with the Dallas Seminary. They still you know they still kind of—I mean they finally got adaptive equipment up in their computer room, but by then I already had a computer at home. So, you know they didn’t change a whole lot of there you know they didn’t have wheel chair ramps you know so of course that kind thing didn’t bother me. But--

Q. Right.

A. So no, I mean, as far as ADA I don’t. I mean I think it's a good thing, but I think again it’s a tool. I don’t think it’s anything you know I don’t think it’s really, I think you have to, you have to have the skills and you have to… well I mean for as far as employers go—I think that’s one of the things that we do at the Texas Commission. We go in and we kind of pave the way for folks. You know I’ve gone in and put in good words, you know, talk to employers on behalf of my constituents and all. That helps. Education, I think, is the main thing really. You can’t, you know you can’t beat somebody over the head with the law.  I'm sure it's helped in other areas, but it just to be honest with you it’s never, it hasn’t really effected me very much.

Q. What do you attribute to your present level of mobility?

A. Well, I would say, probably, using the guide dog and being able to get out there and go. Just the fact that I have always been an independent type person.

Q. Neat. You've gotten mobility instruction throughout; you know at different times throughout your life. Is that right?

A. I got cane instruction and then I got instruction with a guide dog. I did get instruction when I started work. We were going to work to do the bus route. Well, cause they asked me if I wanted to see it and we tried. And that was when we figured out that it wasn’t feasible. But no, no other that, I hadn’t really gotten instruction except for when I exchange dogs. You know what I mean. No, I don’t get periodic instruction.

Q. Would you get more mobility instruction?

A. Well, I don’t know, I might decide. I mean I know a couple of O&M people um. I might you know but the new route. I might, I might if I’ve been talking to some O&M people, I might have somebody come and show me the train and all. ‘Cause I've gone on the train, but I've never really done it by myself so. But the thing is it’s not when it gets to be where it’s convenient for me to take the train and I use it, you know. This you know up to now, it would be just something I would take because it would be fun. But it's not really, it’s not up my way. You know it’s not up far enough yet. Till it gets, the light rail, till it gets up farther in my neighborhood. You know, I've taken it, but um there's no real reason for me to take it. But yeah, I wouldn’t mind learning how to do that. I'd probably would get instruction on how to do that. Although if I didn’t get it. I’d probably I’d go anyway it wouldn’t matter. I mean I would ask. But um That would be probably safer to get instruction. Or say for example if I move to, like a new town or whatever and had a job. Say for example, I moved to Albuquerque or something, I might look up an O&M instructor. I would go out; you know it would speed up the process. If nothing else.

Q. What do you think about the belief in blind mobility instructors, sighted mobility instructors? Do you see any?

A. Well, I'm sorry but there's too many things out there. I think they need their vision. I really do. I mean I think that blind mobility instructors. I mean I think that they can you know up to a certain point but there's too many, there's too many parameters out there. Or too many you know unexpected type things that they wouldn’t …they wouldn’t you know, know that were happening as well as the, you know, the blind person they were helping. You know, I know that there’s probably techniques, some techniques that can help them do, but I just a soon have a sighted mobility instructor. That’s my choice, you know.

Q. Interesting...well that’s the interview. I've been learning a lot. And I really am enjoying, and I appreciate just a lot that you guys spend this time with me talking to me about mobility. I wonder if you could recommend anyone for me to talk to.

A. Uhh did you get any more response from my agency? Cause we all got the email. So, I’ll pass the word along, but they all got the email. You might hear from somebody at the agency. Have you contacted NFB, ACB?

Q. Actually I just ask each person if they would give me a name or number of someone they know.

A. I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing that without their permission.

Q. Some people do actually have me call them back after they’ve asked permission. Or if they call me. 

A. Well I’ll run it by the folks at work, I’ll say if anybody wants to to get in touch with you. You might want to call me back, or if they’ve kept your email. 

Q. Maybe it would be easier if I just emailed you?

A. Yeah, email me. You know and then I can either say yeah I do or not. OK have a good weekend.

Q. Thanks a lot Fran. Goodbye.

Interviewed by: Grace Ambrose

Interview date: 11/27/99

Transcription: Ambrose

Transcription Date:

Reviewed by: Grace Ambrose

Review date: 7/2000