Mike born 1952, blind due to RLF/ROP a MUST LISTEN for all O&M Graduate Students!: Part 1

This was one of the very early interviews I had done. Twenty-five years ago, late one evening I sat down across a table in my Hunter College office with good friend, Mike Levy. He had come prepared with written statements of memories and family lore surrounding his travel. I would recommend this interview to every graduate student studying O&M. Mike was taught O&M in the eighth grade – using a very rote method of instruction. His answers and memories are incredibly insightful about growing up a star of the “no pain, no gain” early intervention for blind babies. 

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Transcript

This was one of the very early interviews I had done. Twenty-five years ago, late one evening I sat down across a table in my Hunter College office with good friend, Mike Levy. He had come prepared with written statements of memories and family lore surrounding his travel. I would recommend this interview to every graduate student studying O&M. Mike was taught O&M in the eighth grade – using a very rote method of instruction. His answers and memories are incredibly insightful about growing up a star of the “no pain, no gain” early intervention for blind babies. 

ID 81099

grace

Date: 8/10/99

Time: 5:45 PM

Michael Levy

DOB: 1952

Born: North New Jersey

Current: New York, NY

It's not in order I just wrote down things as I though of them to me but, you know, you can interrupt with questions.

Perhaps if I get started with housekeeping things. 

Q. How old are you?

A. Age: 47

Q. Date of Birth: 

A. 1952

Q. Where were you born? 

A. I was born in North New Jersey

Q. Where do you live now?. 

A. In Manhattan, West Side

Q. What do you do for a living?

A. I work for the transit Authority, I'm a manager

Q. Where did you go to college?

A. I went to two actually. Columbia and Jewish theological Seminary right up the street.

Q. And your highest degree?

A. Is CSW and I'm an ordained Rabbi.

Q. How long have you had a vision impairment?

A. Since I was born,

Q. Do you know what the name of?

A. Yeah they used to call it RLF now its ROP. I guess those are the same, I don't know.

Q. Yeah they are, 

A. OK I mean at least we say that. I mean I was 2 lbs. 13 ounces and too much oxygen and that whole.

Q. Right. When did you first realize that you were visually impaired?

A. I don't know, I mean it wasn't a traumatic experience or anything like that, but I guess when I went to nursery school, I was three, and ah you know I had an older brother. You know I certainly knew by the time I was 3 that other people could see. But I probably knew it in a way before that, you know what I mean.

Q. Right. Um, when did you first learn to travel, uh was it with mobility or

A. I'm going to talk a lot about that cause my parents gave me free range in certain areas. And I wish I had, had. I know its in our house somewhere. we have this VCR where my parents took all the slides and put them on a VCR and um apparently there is a picture of me going into our garage, taking out a tricycle and getting on it and riding around. I don't know can you visualize, you were at my house

Q. Yes,

A. Can you visualize the garage between the two houses. One house here as if it were behind me the other garage is on the right and the other hose is sort of  to the left at 11 O'clock.

Q. So, I mean like an alley way separates the two

A. Yeah, I mean, right there was a wider path, there was a drive way going down to my very left uh from the garage, so I would as far as I remember. I would take the tricycle out of the garage. Go um down to, you know, just I don't know 10 feet, 15 feet go up on the grass, make a right turn, go up on the grass make another right go across toward the garage and then go down the hill, that was my, that little hill, that was my favorite part. But if I ever find that I'll let you see it. Um I mean you know. its, what it, the way I think of it as, that my mother probably told you that I push to travel. 

Q. Yes,

A. But I think that they allowed me to travel and so I. there was, there was no other way. I mean you know its like. I didn't want to depend on anyone and I was--traveling was the norm for me. I mean I used, at least sort of going around the house. I fell down the basement steps a couple times I guess. And uh. But in a way that shows that they allowed me to take risks. Uh, I also remember you know I think that probably. See this is not real traveling, but it all ties in. You know like. I probably went to the bathroom myself at a very early age. You know I learned to walk at 2 years and 4 months. I remember that being told to me. But certainly walking around inside my house I did that on my own from as far back as I can remember. Um, and I don't know whether my mother showed you the house that I grew up in. 

Q. Just I saw it.

A. You saw the outside. I can remember that in a way that I can remember no other building that I've ever been in. I mean, is this. I think it is worth talking about, because I think it has to do with the free range. Uhm I can see myself now. I'm going up the driveway making a right turn, there is a path between two grasses like you have on a sidewalk. And then you go up these three steps to.. that's the back, what we called the back porch. It really wasn't that big. You opened the door and you go into a uhm., what we used to call a laundry room. And I can, on the left there are coats hanging and on the right there's the washing machine and the dryer and then we go into the kitchen. And there is a turn to the left. Well, you could make a turn to the left and then go into sort of an area that was my mother's bathroom and my sister's room and my parent's room was on the right. Or you could go straight through the kitchen and go into the dinning room which was sort of on the other side. and then you would uh let’s take the living room route. You could, you would go in, and you would sort of be going around in a square, you would make a left turn. If you kept going left, you 'd go through the living room into a hallway. On the left on that hallway was the stairs going upstairs. On the right was my brother and my room. And then if you walked down the hallway the next right door would be my parent's room. then you'd be back at the kitchen again. Um. I there's no other building that I remember like that. uhm that I've been in. My wife and I used to live in a one bedroom, and we moved out of it and I couldn't tell you now you know what was there. or anything like that.

Q. So did you trail around or were you walking 

A. I probably, I trailed around I think, um but I don't really remember, but it wasn't with a cane. It was just walking around.

Q. And what did you do about you remember running into things at head level. 

A. Yeah, a couple times, I bumped my head a lot. And I remember one particular time I bumped my head, and my mom was on the phone, and I went up there and made a very painful face and she like got off the phone right away and uhm. So that was, you know that was my early experiences.

Q. And that means, being on the bike that you were graduating to further and further away from the house before school?

A. No, I mean. I think that uh, well its interesting, I never rode my b-, well let me take that back I can't remember the day, the sequence. But I do remember. You know for a while I would be going around in that circle. And then um certainly by the time I was in school. I rode by myself, basically there were two blocks, like half of a square block, cause our house was on the corner. So, I could ride. I could go around the corner uhm, and I can remember that also. I can remember there were different kinds of sidewalk. Um there was sidewalk that had bumps in it. I was told because the tree roots pushed it up. and the pavement itself was smooth. Um then there was when you would turn the corner, you would be on that smooth pavement with still some bumps. And right at the, I was very conscious of borders like we had some neighbors that we didn't get along too well with and so I knew that when I hit the next kind of pavement. Which was sort of…. not bumpy but a little rougher. that was their 

Q. A little more friction

A. territory, yeah that was their territory, that was the Klein's, and then we went, and then there was the Himmelfarbes. And then I knew when we go to this sidewalk that had just been put in um that was Anthony's house because it was the smoothest on the whole block. At the corner there was the Vogel's, and right around the corner was my mother's friend Liddy Jacobs. I'll tell you a story about that you know soon. And then going the other way on Central. That was going east. On Central I would go North. And our house, the Big house and then the little house which my parents also owned took up the first, like half of the block. And then there was um again that kind of change in pavement when you got to Dave Gong's house. And that he had like low wall on his on the right side of the sidewalk and these nice sort of, I don't know it was a kind of um soft wood or some kind of like you could tear off the branches and sort of make things out of them. I don't know what it was. And then the Israel's house came and then Betty Ricker who was an old lady who used baby-sit for us sometimes. And um at the corner there of MacCabe and Central the, there was something about the set up that made me less sure of my surroundings. And I know that I went like this (clicking with tongue) and I never realized what I was doing. But I did it, you know because that helped me find whatever I needed to find. And of course, my greatest worry was about the curb. I didn't want to go into the street. um so that was um that was sort of where I was.

Q. Was that fear instilled in you? Do you think more so then maybe your brother or your sister?

A. I don't know what their fear of the curb was, so it’s hard to know. But the idea of cars coming 

Q. Yeah.

A. was you know, I don't know how it came about, but you know I didn't want, at least at a certain age I didn't want to go into the street. But I never remember being pulled out, you know going in on my own and being told, or you know spanked or something like that. It was just a boundary.

Q. Right. But now you went to school.

A. I went to public school.

Q. You went to public school, and you went there by yourself. 

A. Well yes, well starting. It was a gradual thing. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. I think I requested cane training maybe in 4th or 5th grade.

Q. And that really was you, you knew you wanted to know how to do that.

A. Well I wanted to go to school by myself.

Q. Right.

A.  That's what I wanted to do. I know that I was doing it on a fairly regular basis by 7th grade. Because I kept a diary, and I was always indicate when I would go by myself. I would give myself a one and if I went with somebody I would give myself a zero. 

Q. Ahh.

A. And um. so that's how that went. I don't know if my mother told you the famous story of the first time that I went on my own she was following me and one of my friends said hello to her, which blew her cover. so, I like…you didn't trust me.

Q. How did that make you feel?

A. Well angry, furious really furious. Um Now I understand it, but at that age it really was a question. It really felt like she didn't she didn't trust me. 

Q. So was that after you had cane training? and everything.

A. Yeah, oh, oh I'm sure that they, yeah, I mean there were no lights, no traffic lights to deal with, uh I guess you could tell from being there the streets were pretty small. And not huge amounts of traffic. There was only one or two larger streets that I had to cross. I um I can't remember exactly. Yeah. I certainly had had cane training by then. 

Q. So in Kindergarten, first, second, third grade you walked with your brother and sister?

A. I guess I walked with my brother although I don't remember. Um, or with my friends. I know I had three friends. Gary, Al and David. And. Its funny people used to fight over walking with me. I couldn't understand. I still don't understand it. I use to walk I guess I walked with them as much as or if not more than with my brother. Uhm.

Q. So I guess you weren't really holding on to them though were you walking with them?

A. No, no, no I was holding to them. 

Q. you were. Did you hold on like the elbow or was it?

A. Well I held on like wing you know with the arm bent. And then a counselor came along and told us at some point it was the elbow. I don't remember walking around on my own freely um next to someone.

Q. Right.

A. I would always be holding on to them. You know I don't, I don't know if it is because I use a cane so much, but only if, only in my own house will I walk without a cane. Um. If I go anywhere else, I have the cane with me. 

And I really feel quite um awkward without the cane, in places other than my house.

Q. Do you remember the first time someone handed you a cane and started teaching you how to use it.

A. Um I remember a day… um it must have been one of these half days in school like Veterans Day or something like that, in the fall. I had a teacher named Mr. Scheen. and um he started by just walking around the neighborhood with me and asking if I knew what streets there were and everything like that. And I think I got most of it, but I was a little confused. And then I think for a long time I just stood still and a did an arch. Until they got right. and then um, then I think I. I began to walk with a cane. But I think they did it so gradually that there was never any oh my god this is the first time, As for instance, my first piano lesson was much more, you know, difficult to get through. than the cane. Um. 

Q. Did it seem like a natural addition to you?

A. Yeah, I: mean, yeah, exactly, yeah, right and now I was going to go to school by myself and things like that, but I think it was a pretty long time until I went by myself. I don't know how regularly I got cane travel lessons at that age. I don't remember it as being a lot. I don't remember it as being a lot. When I got to 8th grade um that was, then they were doing it a lot. Because remember I had two other counselors. I had uh commission counselor and I had one of these other, sort of like a paraprofessional that would do art kind of stuff with me. At least in the lower grades. So, you know you could only fit so much in. And also, I don't know where I was on the priority list of people who needed to learn to travel. I don't know whether played a factor or not, you know that there was a shortage of mobility teachers.

Q. And, and I guess you were learning all your academic stuff and you just full day so hard to fit in.

A. Yeah, I mean I remember one time, I think I was, my brother had the measles or the chicken pox or something and I was under quarantine and I was having a blast. And uh or maybe it was a Jewish holiday, and I was off from school and the mobility person came and I was like wait a minute, if I’m off from school I don't have to do this either. And then you know that was kind of a funny scene.

Q. So it wasn't like you were motivated to go with these people on holidays.

A. No, no it was like school. Um I think because it was also this feeling of am I doing well or not doing well. You know nobody likes to make mistakes and if my arch wasn't good, you know that was a mistake. 

Q. Ah yeah.

A. And I understand the stringency with which they corrected it, because you know later on its really could be life or death, you know, whether have a good arch or not, but as a kid you can't think that all you think is, this guy doesn't like what I'm too much. Or does. Um. I guess there was always this sort of idea that I that there was a certain standard that I had to live up to. 

Q. Right.

A. This some other stuff that I want to talk about from my own stuff. um. I just first of all this is dedicated to my parents. Because they really were it. They, just the fact that they gave me free range I think probably contributed more than anything else. The rest of it is just skill learning. But the perception that you can do it or ought to be doing it or might enjoy doing it comes from experiences you had as a kid.

Q. Do you think that was you father more than your mother or both of them the same?

A. I think it might have been my mother than my father.

Q. The other way. She expressed so much concern over it. In her interview. And then said it was all your dad. 

A. Well I don't know I, I, I get the feeling. I don't know, maybe that was it. But, I remember they struggled over the idea did I really need to learn to ride a two wheel bike. You know, my mother was more the athletic type anyway. Uh so, I don't know but she might be more valuable. But I know it was a greater struggle for her. She would, it was harder for her to let go because she was my mother. you know I mean that makes sense. But she would I'm talking about even before that. I'm talking about like 3 years old kind of stuff. you know. Uh to me it was sort of normal to just kind of wonder around and you know um ...

Q. Did you get lost and find your way out again.

A. Well things happened, um I remember once I was riding in my little circle, like I always loved to do. And I was humming and thinking about trucks going over leaves and things like that and I just kind of meditated too much and the next thing I knew I went down the driveway and I was lying in the street. You know. I wasn't really hurt. I think my pride was a little hurt. Uh because Ici Jacobs one of the, you know, older girls around, kind of came to sort of pick me up and I was  like, you know I didn't want anything to do with that. I just wanted my mom to come. But I do remember being. I'm going to show you. If this is the driveway. The driveway would go down, and then there'd be this spot in the middle and then there would be the street going up again. You know like the drain, the water drainage kind of thing. I remember always thinking of this middle place as a bad place to be. 

Q. Ahh.

A. You know and that's where I was, so you know it was like.

Q. right, cause that's where the sewer is or?

A. Well, I don't know, because it meant you were in the street.

Q. Right.

A. You know and that was bad. 

Q. Sure.

A. Although, I mean there were you could be supervised in the street like if rained hard and the whole street flooded, and nobody was driving anyway you could go out there and kind of be in the water and stuff like that. 

Q. Ohhh.

A. So that was, that was fun.

Q. I didn't know it flooded that much up here.

A. Well it doesn't really, I mean it would be like if we had a bad thunderstorm. And it would only be for like a half hour or something. But everybody would go out with like balloons and things you know just do water things. Like kids do. 

Q. mm hmm.

A. You know see I have a theory, called the divergence theory. That theory goes like this. At age 6 months no sighted kid travels and no blind kid travels, but then a gap starts to develop, and it gets larger and larger um so if you are going to say that x percent of blind people don't travel you can't blame it on an immediate cause. It developed that way. That's why I think it was so important that I got to feel this freedom when I was really young. And I didn't, I didn't know I was getting something special. You know I just kind of hang around. I mean once my brother pushed me into a dresser and I got stitches and you know what I mean.

Q. Right.

A. We weren't even fighting. I don't know what we were doing. But its just like things happen. I remember. Again. this is a little um shadowy. I went to nursery school and there was a slide, and you could go up it and slide down. And I was doing that, and I think what happened was I fell off backward from the top of the slide into the grass. And I wasn't even frightening. I think that I must have blacked out for a second or something. Because I-- the next thing I knew it was like in the grass kind of like you were waking up from your sleep and thinking, yeah how did this happen? Kind of that way. It’s interesting that I'm talking about accidents a lot because its uh to me that shows that I was allowed to have accidents.

Q. Right exactly.

A. I remember, you know how those three wheeled bicycles have like a little back thing

Q. Yes.

A. where you could put your foot on. So I figured I'm going to walk around with one foot on the back and one foot on the concrete. You know just to see how it would go and I'm walking and ah suddenly something was wrong with the way I was doing it and the bike flipped out from un--you know from where I was holding it. And I fell on my back and got the wind knocked out of it. That was pretty frightening, cause you know when you’re uh like that, my father picked me up and uh that was it. But I mean I didn't. I still rode my bike after that. You know it was like, like an accident is OK. It just was. I mean my brother, my sister tried to put an umbrella on a bicycle or tricycle and uh something happened. the rope got caught, she got you know her thing was she landed on her chin, so she had to have stitches, or they had to keep her up because of concussion. I mean there's also like accident legends that families have. 

Q. Sure.

A. Like if you hit your head you can't go to sleep because then you know you might not wake up or whatever it is. We just sort of knew that. You know. But we all, you know, my brother got something once caught in the spokes of the bicycle you know so everybody had accidents. Um but that was sort of part of it. Um so that, I mean, that is really important as far as I'm concerned. um and so when you talk about like mobility and cane travel that's just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, it’s sort of like this decision was made or that my parents said that there's a world out there and this is what its like and go and experience it. and at least in some degree. you're responsible for getting around. Even if it was only in my own house. And they assumed that I could travel and could take risks. Uhm. Once my brother and I, again there is this family legend type things but. Once my brother and I were sitting on top of a carriage. I guess we were both maybe 2 and 1 or something. And um. My father would load up the beach, the carriage with beach chairs and then put us up on top and the. I don't know, at some point somebody was supposed to be holding on to us and you didn't and we fell off backwards. I always remember the knife getting pressed against the head. You know uh to make the swelling go down. No, not the you know, not the blade

Q. The cold metal

A. Right, not the blade. I guess ice wasn't so available in those days, you know and uh. Yeah, that was something that happened.

Q. I mean you were expected to move about were you also expected to do your share of the chores. Or was that something you asked to do.

A. That was a lot of conflict. That was. I can't figure out why travel was so conflict free compared to other things.

Q. Uh huh.

A.  But my parents didn't make me do chores as much as my brother and sister. And I felt inferior and left out and all that stuff. You know therapy and blah. But I never had to have therapy about travel. You know I just did it. 

Q. Interesting.

A. I don't. You know I just did it. I mean maybe it was because, I was, when you travel you are alone. 

Q. Right.

A. you know you just do it. Um, um. Anyway I have my share of chores now so I'm make up for it. 

Q. (laugh).

A. And I kind of enjoy it. you know I kind of like, my daughter when she gets up, she's nine now and she's always starving in the morning,

Q. Right.

A. so you know, even if I'm not there I'll put out a bowl and some, you know and leave the milk on the table and you know stuff like that. Um. Now but I remember, but if, if I was riding in a car. I remember this in connection with um Halloween parties at school. I don't know if I was four or five, but if you were riding in a car and the window was open you could tell when you passed a parked car by the sound. You could just tell. Now. Um. let's see.

Q. And what about red lights and being stopped for traffic. 

A. Well I knew about, I could still take you from Manhattan to my house in a car. And I knew about red lights, I mean for walking also. and I knew about streets that didn't have red lights like Ocean Ave. was the last street in our town on the east near the beach and there was no light there and it was always dangerous to cross for anybody. And I just always remembered it.  as being that. Especially in the summer when there were a lot of people there. And I remember always thinking at a certain age when I was crossing, I would imagine that I was going you know from confederate lines to the union you know, and the cars were the were the enemy. I mean I had to get by them. Um OK. Now it’s time for the Leada Jacobs' story. Leady lived around the corner from us. And my mother once sent my sister and I there to I don't know drop something off. My sister, maybe was 3 I was six, maybe was 4 and 7. I don’t know. So, we get there and um. Then I say to my sister, you go back and tell mom that I’m going to go around the block. You know so much for older brothers and sisters, but you know so she went back. So, I went I continued back beach Ave. to the corner of McCabe. In other words, Beady was like you had to turn left on Lorraine and go to her and then I just continued straight and my sister went back around onto Loarraine. So, I no until I got to Mcabe I think I was fine. But then it seemed like McCabe was a lot longer than Lorraine had been which was the parallel street. Probably because I didn't know it in the intimate way that I knew Lorraine. I knew every bump on Lorraine on the block. Uhhh. and I may have never been on McCabe actually. But I knew in my head that it was Central, Lorraine, Beach, McCabe Central. That I knew. so, But I think that I panicked out so much that I had actually made the turn on Central, and I was calling for my mother and she didn't answer until I was close enough for, for me to hear her when she answered. and I you know, um then it was sort of a proud thing. You know and when my father came home, you know tell your father what you did. I walked around the block. you know great. uhh. Another story..

Q. It was like you almost sent your sister back because you wanted to do it by yourself.

A. Right, I mean you know its like any kid would probably do things like that. You know what I mean. I guess I had always heard about around the block, so I was going to do it. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I had it in my head. But the panic um took away my map. If you know what I mean. It took away my confidence that I was doing the right thing.

Q. Right.

A. But that was an important lesson to learn. 

Q. So you actually, and you had done it. You had been successful.

A. No I never had done it before, as far as I could remember.

Q. I mean this time. 

A. Right I did it without even realizing I had done it because of the panic. OK now. I do remember another incident. I think it was when my sister was born. Because my mother wasn't home and I think I had either walked or ridden my tricycle, I would have been around 3. But again, memories get all mixed up. But this part I know and that is that I again by this Leady Jacobs’ house or turning that corner on Lorraine and Beach I think I went off the curb. And I was crying, I don't think I was hurt and um Joanie Burger who was another sort of babysitter type of person. who maybe lived on Lorraine picked me up and um I remember being lifted up that night to the phone to say thank you. You know that was, that was probable the strongest memory of it. See I guess what I'm getting at is it just isn't the cane. Its, Its, Its like, Its you and the world. How are you going to relate to the world? Its there. Um. OK. Now. I got to tell you a story about something that happened when I was in third grade. Around the block, OK. I looked at my block as a square bounded by the four sidewalks. That was my, I didn't think in terms of intersections. OK, I thought in terms of sidewalks, because that's what I dealt with. So, by that reckoning. If I thought of it as a big Square Lorraine and Central was the southwest corner of that square. But if you, in other words that square of the sidewalk block. And to me that made sense. I mean the streets were not unifying, it was the sidewalks that were connected.

Q. Right.

A. And I remember in 3rd grade where you know we were learning about maps and intersections and I said the southwest corner and and Ms. Lang was saying no it’s the Northeast corner. And I couldn't understand it and she couldn't understand why I didn't understand it. umn you know in terms of the intersection of Lorraine and Central it was the Northeast corner, so that I remember. 

Q. But in terms of the block as a whole

A. It was the southwest. You know you know it was my block. You know that was my unit of measurement so to speak. Um ok. I mean. This is something ok this is something else which isn't quite cane travel, but it’s really important and that is being left alone for the first time and that I do remember. and I think the reason it was so scary for me was that it wasn't planned. um I must not have been in kindergarten yet, my brother was. I was a year younger. so, it was pouring rain out and my mother had to leave me alone. I don't know where my sister was but in any case, uhm, uhm so I remember her saying. It won't be that and blah, blah blah blah. And I was crying and then she left and came back. And it was just I mean that’s probably how it happens a lot with kids. It’s just all of a sudden there is some emergency and you have to leave the kid alone. You know and it just was you know, and I didn't particularly mind being left alone. but it was just, I had that experience. 

Q. Do you remember what you did?

A. I just remember that that when she left it wasn't as bad as when she saying she was going to leave. 

Q. Yeah.

A. OK, lets see. well I think the reason that travel was more conflict free was that for some reason I had more freedom to make mistakes in travel than I did in buttering bread or pouring milk. I don't know why. Um. I guess maybe because of the appearance. I don't know my father was very… uhhhh… conscious of appearance. So, he would rather himself pour the mild for me rather than me pour it and spill it. Uhm. so that was just a harder time for me. Uh the other thing is I have had many more conflicts over the idea that I can't get information. That's much, what always amazes me is that you know somebody will throw an ink print sheet on my desk and leave. But if there's a file cabinet open somebody will always come over to tell me which it is. I guess because people don't see your lack of information, but when you're traveling they probably imaging themselves doing it without seeing. 

Q. They can sort of see the obstacles that might cause you.

A. Right, but they don't see the constant obstacle of not having information. 

Q. Right.

A. You know um. OK um. and today you know when I'm out on the street. People will say do you need help, and I'll say no and they'll say are you sure. You know so, that's.

Q. Well that's actually one of my curiosity things is what is the thing that happens frequently that you like least about your encounters with sighted people as you.

A. Being invaded. 

Q. Right.

A. Either by being yelled at or after or by begin touched. 

Q. Right.

A. And I never, I mean I grew up in a small town, so I wasn't used to what Peggy Gross calls public intimacy you know. And it angers me to this day that you know that a sighted person would not go and touch another sighted person

Q. Right.

A.  but because I'm blind they feel they have the right to do it and I still am working on accepting that they really mean well. and etc. etc. Um but it’s hard. I mean it’s a very physical thing.

Q. Typically they'll grab your wrist and pull? or

A. Or your shoulder or, even when they yell it’s like they're interrupting my life. You know and at a time I used to be so angry that if they said right, I would purposely go left to make them yell more. You know I did that until my friends said that they would feel like, that they would feel weirded out if that happened, you know but um.

Q. They would feel weirded if they helped somebody?

A. If they were that person and I went the opposite of which of the way that they said. Because, I mean the bottom line is that the person really does mean well. You know what I mean? They're not malicious and intellectually, I know the best thing to do is thank them and etc. I've slowed down a lot. The first, I mean I always. I mean I know I have a problem with being angry in the street. When I’m… And um, uh I'm a religious person and when my wife became pregnant I thought I better be nicer in the street. You know I can't afford to, if I get punished that's one thing but I don't want any other, anyone else, to get punished.

Q. Well I know they do that with pregnant women is that people feel like they can come and touch bellies. 

A. Right, but that isn't why. I was bringing it up in a different context. That I felt that I had to be a better person. When my wife was pregnant because it was such a miracle.

Q. Right.

A. And over the years I found that it is just better to walk slower. and I'm beginning to think to myself that I don't have to prove. I used to say to people that were helping me well I have to go by myself because what'll I do if nobody was around. And they would understand that.

Q. Oh.

A. But now, you know I’m 47 year's old. I threw out my college books, you know finally. And I realize I don't have to prove anything to anybody. I took a taxi here because I was late. You know that's it.

Q. Do you think that. you always, from very young you felt like proving or was that something that might have been a message like that your mobility instructors -- like you can't solicit aide you have to do it by yourself or a combination?

A. I think it was um one day when, I don't think I'm over dramatizing this, but one thanksgiving when I was in 3rd grade I was standing by the sink and my father said something like well do you want to be normal, or don't you want to be normal? Or, you know so it was always if you weren't doing things in a certain way, you weren't normal. And that was then I would be like the isolated blind kids who rocked, and you know were left back and things like that.

Q. Right. Were you told that those kids were there, or you knew them or?

A. I went to camp, so I knew they existed, and you know um um its like I didn't have much of a choice I mean this gets into the non travel area. But if you had left me alone, I would have read all the time. But somehow that wasn't good. you know  I had to play. So to speak in quotes. There was even this one time when the arranged for some 4th I was in 7th or 6th and they arranged for some 4th grader to come over and quote play unquote, but it was, you know, it wasn't natural, you know. I think if I have any complaints against the rehab system it’s that they didn't let me develop my own style. They were so convinced, they were so worried about normal and not normal. you know, but I understand that, that was the 50s.  That’s how things went in those days you know but see in travel I guess the expectations were… of the world were much were less. and I always had the sense that I was doing pretty well. um but somehow whenever a sighted person would touch me or yell. I would think that their thinking that I'm helpless and I couldn't stand that idea.

Q. Yeah. Plus all that goes into that which is that you are concentrating and it is very hard and you have to pay attention.

A. Well it's not even the travel. It’s that well maybe I’m thinking about um my scientific theory or something. 

Q. Sure exactly. completely.

A. Yeah.

Q. Its invading your thoughts.

A. Right. I want to talk about. I mean I again. I always say that the cane is the tip of the iceberg. It was always like. I my parents from day one--well from as far back as I can remember would, would. Basically, the message the underlying message was you're in the world. I mean um, again one of these half memories half legends of getting caught in a snowstorm in April coming back from Long Island and we were stuck for 8 hours and you know. They were feeding my sister milk and it spilled on me and it was hot and um then we got stuck on the Ashbury Park Circle and this man with one arm came out of no where and drove us home. And I, I do have this faint memory of my father carrying me into the house and I could hear his feet sort of crunching on the snow. Um and it was 12:30 which was really spooky, and I ate some toast and I mean to me that somehow that is travel also. In other words. It just is. Its part of this is the world. and you know eventually I knew I became fascinated by the Ashbury Park Circle that you were going south on the west side of the parkway then you had to turn, you could only turn right so you had to turn and go off the parkway come back, and this is because you wanted to go east. You had to turn, go off the parkway then come back and go over an overpass over the parkway and then get on to route 33 east. That was when we got off the parkway.

Q. Well it sounds like um couple things. One is you were definitely were talking in cardinal directions from a very young age? Is that right? 

A. Yeah.

Q. And that you were also paying very close attention?

A. Yeah, well I was told. I was, it was just part of the trip. You know. you know Bradly is exit 100, you know, um, um. The toll, I mean my father would do this thing at the toll booth that he would put the quarter in and try to leave fast enough so that it would ring as though he hadn't paid. That was the big thrill. You know I mean the trips, trip were trips. you know I mean uhhm.

Q. Well I mean, for example with the teacher. The teacher and you having this discussion about cardinal directions in 3rd grade, and I wonder how many of your classmates um really could follow that. You know what I'm saying that here you are in 3rd grade, and you seem to have this real sense of NSEW um and that is that something that you worked with, with your dad? or?

A. I don't know remember. I grew up in a little town. The ocean was on the east. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. That was for sure. um Main.  That was I mean the ocean was always there. I really. I'll get to that I'll get to that. But OK. That was there were real things out there in the world that you could judge by. You see I don't know whether I remember. I certainly when in the weekly reader  when they had their map addition and they had NSEW I had no trouble following it, although again with Mrs. Lane who wasn't very nice, something that was a little bit south and a lot east of something else and I said it was south and it was like you know she didn't accept that somehow. 

Q. Right, that wasn't the answer in the teacher's guide.

A. Right, but in any case, it was um… you know I don't know; I mean. Again, I have no one to compare myself to, but you know uhm uh I would listen to Bill Martin the weather man and he would say that there was a storm coming out from the Gulf of Mexico. I don't know when I got the picture of the US. OR whatever but you know people you do hear about directions. My father worked in the store, and you had go north to his store on the parkway. That's what your daddy does. 

Q. Right.

A. He has to leave at 9:15 so he can open up at 10. You know it’s a very, very small things but they accumulate to a real treasure. I don't know if they did it extra because I was blind or they just sort of talked about it with, with us. Um but that's what they did. You know it was just sort of there. Um. 

Q. But then picking up on you know what you were talking about with those kids that sit in the back and rock.

A. Yeah.

Q. If they're being carried in perhaps and I know this to be my experience with kids who are like that that they are very internal that they're not thinking about the sound that their father's feet are making on the snow. They're thinking only, I don't know what they're thinking. But they're very often not paying attention to what's going on outside of them and it sounds like you very much were benefiting from what they were telling you but you were also pulling in all of that you could that was around you and that you were listening to parked cars and you were listening to or feeling the grass and that knowing that that’s what the sidewalk was was the break and uh.

A. I think you know that it’s, its, it was nice just to be outside hanging out. I mean in Manhattan you sort of don't have that luxury. My kids have to go to the park.

Q. Right.

A.  I didn't have to go anywhere. I could go and stay in the backyard and look at the, right in the grass there, there was the oil tank. you know the top that they would take off to fill up the house with uh. you know the oil tank

Q. Uh hmm.

A.  there was just stuff you know um, um my parents put up a basketball hoop on the garage and so you know I could shoot baskets, or somebody could line me up and I could you know try to aim and stuff like that so. um, yeah there was lots of external stuff and also, traveling means that you can get up and leave. I mean even if you don't decide to get up and leave. I could still get up, you know say goodbye to you  whether you liked it or not.

Q. You’re Right.

A.  I could walk out. I could find the elevator and I you know I would and go home. 

Q. Very true.

A. You know, and I always liked that idea of travel. Even like listening to the space flights you know 3 miles up and 5 miles down range 12 miles up and 80 miles downrange. I you know I had a picture of that. I liked that. um ok let's see here. Um maps, however, did not do me much good. Ever. As far as I'm concerned, the world is made up like this you've got sidewalks, streets grass, openings, slopes, up slopes, down, right turns, left turns, walls, rails, curbs, and sounds. and I don't and even you today when you were talking about you were on the inner square and outer square, I don't you know all I care about is, when I get out of the elevator I make right turn. I go about 20 feet and then I do something else.

Q. Good.

A. You know. Um . The bus stop without a shelter is 300 steps back up the street from where the other bus let me off. Um. The lighthouse puts out a subway guide. And I don't know if you know about that or not?

Q. I've seen the tactile guide that Karen Gougry.

A. right, no this is just text. Its just says. Um, um it just lists the stations. You know. All the way from 241st , 231st and that to me is more useful than a map. I'm not good with shapes. And I don't you know, I don't know whether it came from research or what. Or just thinking that you know because sighted people use maps then blind people should use maps also. I don't know what it came from, but it doesn't work for me.

Q. Did you ever get any real kind of instruction from a TVI (teacher of the visually impaired) on trying to use tactile maps.

A. Not really. I mean I had this beautiful book, from the Illinois sightsaving school. It was like a four-volume atlas. Um, but I enjoyed the narrative and the key that went with the map as much as the map.

Q. Yeah.

A.  And one thing I really remember quite fondly, I think in volume 4, um they had a map of Manhattan. And the thing that interested me the most was Broadway, because they talked about every place that Broadway would cross another street that was supposed to be perpendicular to because Broadway ran southeast to northwest. So, I got that. you know. Um, but I got it from reading about it. And when I travel, when I go anywhere, I think in micro s-- micro slivers. In other words, when I’m going to my synagogue, and I get to 70th street. I'm not thinking about the whole trip. I’m thinking about crossing 70th street. And where the A&P is and where the garbage truck is and um whether I have time, whether I should, uh if I’m walking down west end whether I should turn and cross west end or cross 70th first and how the lights are going. I'm not thinking about any other part of the trip. I’m not visualizing it at all. Um and that's why, if, if, if you said to me, your office is moving to 2 Broadway, which it is. How do you want to learn your way around. I would say let me walk around with a tape recorder and say. Now I'm making a left turn, now I’m making a right turn this is what is on the right, this is what's on the left and then just sort of look at it. 

Q. Well now let me ask you, that this is what’s on the left and the right, those must be some sort of landmarks. What do you like? Do you like a big thing? Do you like a little thing, do you have different things? What kinds of landmarks are you going to mention in that tape?

A. Well some of the things, some of the things are just like for later on.

Q. Right.

A. You know there's a fruit store, I mean.

Q. How do you know that fruit store is there?

A. Well I would go with a sighted person. I mean I did this actually with my parents when I lived on uh where was I. I think I was on 92nd street. You know for a year. um and Key food was here and this there. You know and so later on you sort of know it, but for this, you know there are certain places you have to go and one of them is the food store. And so you know.

Q. So you think it is more efficient than to go with a sighted person and just have them and do sort of a tape recording. 

A. Right and walk through it as you’re doing it. Um I think the people in Boston, somebody in Boston, did that with the subway system. Um I'll have to check on that. I think I know where I can check on that.

Q. Have you ever familiarized yourself to a place without a sighted person?

A. Um, I do it all the time.

Q. Right.

A.  Um, Um, well put it this way. Usually not without some sighted person somewhere. but, um yeah, well I shouldn't say that you see there's, there's you have to put things in different categories. If it’s a place that I'm going to come back to more than once, then I take more time to familiarize myself with it. Um, I went to, I was coming back from Israel in 74 and that was when there was the war in Cyprus. And so all the flights were delayed and so the airline put me up in London for a night. And I was completely on my own. But you know they take you everywhere. You go to your hotel room. And then they said, um we'll come and collect you, you know, the next day and that was it. um I tend to do.

Q. So did you venture out then on your own?

A. No, no I didn't. But I did go to Milwaukee um when I was in Milwaukee I wanted to go to services. I mean basically I would take a cab, but you know and sometimes I would call the person from the desk to bring me downstairs, you know, but there are, there is a certain, what I would call when you are burning in a place. Meaning when you are passing from the right left openings, not openings, when you're passing that to where it just happens. That I do with out a sighted person.

Q. That would be like after you've done the sighted person trip.

A. Right like, like my office, or like when I worked on um, um out in Flatbush. Are you familiar with the subway system.

Q. Sure.

A.  There's this Atlantic Ave. station. Where the 2, 3, 4 and 5 meet the D and Q. And I mean just go through there on a rush hour and it’s pretty crowded.

Q. I bet.

A.  But there's lots of nice clues. There's inclines, there's stairs, there's narrow things. um There's trains going by. there's Long Island railroad making announcements. And that's sort of, I, I got to the point where I burned that in. I its, its not there anymore, because I haven't been there in 3 years. you know or actually more like 6 years, but there's that. And in my mind I mean one of the nice things is I know we're moving to 2 Broadway and I know I'm not going to like it and I'm know I'm going to be lost but I know that after a month I'm going to sort of get it and do it. And so, I, I just say OK it’s a month. you know. But I must say that when I go on vacation, it often feels like an exile to me because I don't know where I am.

Q. Right.

A. I can't just get up and go any where and if it’s a place like Florida, you really need a car.

Q. Yes.

A.  And um, and so I don't, my idea is staying home

Q. Yeah.

A.  and doing whatever you want to do. So, but, I do go. But I also, also say, OK now I'm not in control and I have to remember that this is not, that this is only a temporary reality its not really how things always are. So, I’m just going to sort of grin and bear it you know for 4 or 5 days and then I'll be back home.

Q. Well it sounds like well, I'll take a cab that that's almost like, you had to come to terms with that.

A. Yeah.

Q. In some ways.  Whereas for me its just another option that I exercise.

A. Right, I’m more forced into it. I want to get back to some nice outdoor experiences I've had.