Mike born 1952, blind due to RLF/ROP a MUST LISTEN for all O&M Graduate Students!: Part 2

This was one of the very early interviews I had done. Twenty-five years ago, late one evening I sat down across the table in my Hunter College office with good friend, Mike Levy. He had come prepared with written statements of memories and family lore surrounding his travel. I would recommend this interview to every graduate student studying O&M. Mike was taught O&M in the eighth grade – using a very rote method of instruction. His answers and memories are incredibly insightful about growing up a star of the “no pain, no gain” early intervention for blind babies. 

One can easily hold Mike up as a highly successful employed, married father of two – but there is no doubt the discussion of his travel is a very difficult one for him. He doesn’t like to be questioned too deeply about the meaning behind his memories. His narrative is, he possessed free, open, and no holds barred travel encouraged by his parents that made him the successful traveler he is today, but an adult who stays put waiting for a guide in a hotel room is someone who has had too many bad experiences to risk independent travel. He is proof positive that the “no pain, no gain” upside down childrearing methods caused deep wounds. It would take hours and hours to unpack the harm perpetrated on a human being wo wonderful as little Mike Levy who really is a superhero. 

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Transcript

  Part 2:

A. Ok, One of the places that I used to hang out was at the back of the garage. Um. On the outside, you know in other words you could, you could walk around three sides of the garage. I’m talking about Bradly beach here. The 4th side I think was a hedge or bushes or something like that. So, um. And a clothesline was back there and you know it was sort of sometimes it would get muddy back there and the smells were different back there. It was sort of another yard. It sort of half belonged to us and half belonged to the Kline's. You know they, they, they there was construction some once, and there was dirt there. Another time I really remember was um. It was a Sunday when uh we went to visit my relatives. I remember we were just all walking around in mud because it had snowed and now was warm. I must have been like in 4th or 5th grade and the next day it was like 76 degrees and it had like snowed 2 or 3 days before. And that, that fascinated me. So I said to myself I bet that I know where the last patch of snow is. And I went around the garage to the back and there it was.

Q. Ah.

A. You know. And it was like, it was just my own private thing. It was like, it was sort of like reading a poem. Or you know discovering something. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Another thing, um um. I was lucky enough to be in the category of doing things that you would never tell your parents you do. Uh my brother and his friends once. The garage and the, the one of the houses were close enough and maybe there was like a three feet distance, so they took a piece of wood and they nailed it down on both sides and they started you know crawling over the wood so. I think they, you know they said to me do you want to do it? I said Yeah I'll do it. And like um I mean they were very protective of me, you know they were all around, but but I did it. And and there is something um nice about you know just sort of; kids do it, you know take a dare. It wasn't that dangerous. But it was, a little risky. Now, another time I was out there hanging out. And it was like 90 something degrees. And all of a sudden it got 25 degrees colder. Just like that just in a second (snaps his fingers). And my mother started calling me. And it was, there must have been this big thunderstorm coming and I ran in and of course then it started raining. So, it was just like that's, that's an adventure. Um.

Q. Now it marks a learning point where you know when that kind of weather change happens something like that might be a foot or?

A. Right, but its more. I mean I follow the weather anyway. But its more the idea of like being out there and have your mother call you back rather than never being out there never being called.

Q. And its not like she came over to you and lead you back.

A. No, she just said come back, come into the house. You know I mean she has a real loud whistle that you can hear 2 blocks away. But this time, um she just called me, and I and I came back. Cause I guess she had a sense that there was enough time for me to do that. 

Q. How far away from her do you think you were?

A. Oh, I couldn't have been more than 50 feet away.

Q. But a good 50 feet easily?

A. Um I don't know, maybe it’s less than that. But it was basically down, down the down one side of the garage, down the small hill, and into the back porch. You know I did it in like less than a minute. Now there in that yard I would walk around freely. In that, in that area. But I wouldn't walk like off my block freely. Um. I mean I remember like going up the grass rather than in the driveway sometimes. You know just kids, you just do stuff like that. Um. The other thing is that, that both my parents would always describe things to me. Um. My father would be on the boardwalk. Oh there's a seagull and its got a clam, and somehow it knows to drop the clam on the concrete and it cracks the shell.

Q. Would he stop and pull over and let you investigate new experiences.

A. Yeah. I mean sometimes he would just talk about it. Like Sod, you know how you can buy sod and and this was in Florida. And he said, “You know you put it down and in 48 hours you can't even tell that its that its artificial. That it was just put there. Uh. I remember my, um I had, its sort of. I don't know the adult side of it, but everybody did it. I once remember going for a walk with my favorite Aunt at her house. You know long, long walk. And we stopped at a friend's house and had something to eat and we came back and she said wow this flower bloomed in the time that we were gone. You know. Um. just things like that. um, but my sister would do it. You know She would be reading something in the newspaper about a couple that hugged each other so hard that he broke her rib. You know things that kids that sort of pick out. Um and I notice that my son does it. A lot. Um he'll say, You know your supper is on the table. Uh, and even my brother-in-law we were up in Montreal going up a ski lift You know on it was more for sight seeing than for skiing and he would say You know now we're passing this, and this and this . You know and I thanked him, but I don't know where he got--people maybe just do it somehow if they want you to be included.

Q. So does it make you feel included, if someone is not doing will you ask for it?

A. Uhm only if I'm curious about it. 

Q. Sometime is it too much and you'd rather they'd just be quiet for a moment or?

A. Uh well, that hasn't in those traveling experiences that, that doesn't happen. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. Um, like when I'm at a wedding I like to know what's going on.

Q. Sure.

A.  But it depends who I am sitting next to. I might not know the person so sometimes I get a good description and sometimes not.

Q. Right.

A. Um, let's see here. Um. Each of us in our family had our own bridge. Meaning, um, um You know and if we were--You know in the area, and we were passing it oh this is Robbie's bridge or this is Barbara's bridge. Mine was the shark river bridge. Now. that bridge went was right near the ocean. But I guess it was to connect two towns. um Avon and Belmore over like a little inlet. But it was big enough to have like cars through it and also you had a pedestrian area. sidewalk. And it was one of these bridges that would open in the middle to let the boats through and so um..um I walked over it and You know with people from when I was young. And also, um my father and I, we had a tandem bicycle so we would take a ride and go over the bridge. And sometimes, and, and like he would, he would say take me to the middle and I would stand with one foot on one half of the bridge and one foot on the other and there's a little crack in between. And you could feel it when the cars went over, You know that thing would shake there. And I really understood that that was two halves of a bridge. It wasn't one thing. You know. And um there were times that we would go up on to it and then these, the bells would start ringing  like the guy was going to open it and we would have to peddle fast and come down on the other side, You know um. And when I was, one of the nice things is when I was older like in high school. I could walk, either from my house south all the way to the end of Belmare; which was I guess about 2 miles. Um because there was always a street or a boardwalk and no cross streets really. Cause you know you're at Ocean Ave. if you're on the Ocean side of Ocean Ave. there's no traffic, cause it can't go through.

Q. Right.

A. Um, so I could do that, or I could go north and go through Ocean Grove and then go through um Ashbury park which was nice because it had two at each end of it there was like a um a building right on the board walk. One was the, we called  it the casino, where they had like rides. It wasn't really gambling but it was stuff, you know rides and popcorn and Ferris wheel. And the other one was convention hall. Where I mean it was big. It was big enough to have like uh beach boys concert or something like that. But you could, it was interesting for me because once you got into these buildings you had to walk straight through. So that was sort of an interesting experience with the sound and everything like that. But when I was in high school, I needed to be sometimes alone. I needed to just take a walk. And I would, I could go from my high school, down sunset Ave. Cross the railroad tracks and all I had to do was go straight and I knew eventually I'd hit the boardwalk. And then I'd hit the boardwalk, and I'd make a left turn and I mean, You know life is unfair in many ways, but in this area I was lucky. Right at Lorraine Ave. Where I had to turn off to get to my house there was a concrete strip, so uhh, I guess it was like near the pool or near the penny arcade. I don't know why they had to put concrete there instead of a boardwalk, but that was my clue.

Q. Great.

A. You know then I would turn off the boardwalk and go home. And I mean its, it’s just there were certain kinds of days that I really loved, when it was like wind was coming off the ocean it was sort of drizzling and you could hear the fog horns and it was just, I mean. I wouldn't run into people. You know there was nobody there. So that was just nice. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Um, I mean. and I had some, sort of indoor nice things also, like we'd go to the butcher shop. And You know my sister and I would climb into the window that faced the street. Um. When we went on the ferry my father um arranged for me to see the captain and I pulled the whistle, and we went up and down stairs that were really steep because it was on ship and the ship did have that much space. So, I was really aware I mean there was a fire at the A&P. Uh when I was in 3rd grade. Like they could see if from our house and smoke and You know it was coming from Main Street which was on the west and I just sort of remember it.

Q. What cane technique did you use on the boardwalk? Did your cane get stuck in the?

A. Uhm maybe sometimes, but I mean, it’s like so, You know so it did. I mean it was, it was nobody there, nobody saw. You know. So, I didn't really care.

Q. Uh huh.

A.  Uh, for the most part it was pretty straight and pretty narrow. Uh, and I didn't even have to be that conscious of my arch because it was a rail on one side and the street on other.

Q. Yeah.

A.  You know so, You know it was great. uhhm. One time it was my father's store burned down and he just took me there. I don't know why he just took me. Maybe he asked us who wanted to go. My father, when I was growing up. Like he could do anything. You know my mom was like yeah, she plays checkers too, but You know my dad he's, he's the one. (soft laugh) My poor mom. She said she felt like she came in second. um. OK. um I told you that I knew the parkway and the turnpike and even, even today. Like 2 months ago I went to a meeting in Somerset and somebody was driving and she said its exit 10 on the parkway and I said that can't be. That's like by Atlantic City. I said I bet it's exit 10 on the turnpike. So, I called the hotel and I got the directions. But I had the sense of you know, where summerset New Jersey should be. I knew that we went to Philadelphia we had to get on the turnpike at Heightstown which was exit 8. Uhm. You know I mean I don't know, I don't what its like in other families, but You know my parents talked about trips and directions and things like that. Um. So that was, that was there. Uhm. I knew when I went to camp Morsella up in Northwest Jersey that was route 46. Um. I remember being at camp when I was like 6 or 7 and they asked me to try to tell them. We were standing at the edge of the road and they asked me to tell them when a car was passing. Um. I remember Mr. Lloyd my 7th and 8th grade mobility teacher, I guess. I, I it seemed like to me that I stood half a year just lining up. It just was a long time and I and and he made me concentrate on the very first step. and sometimes he would stop me after the first step and say, see you stepped, You know you’re leading yourself in the wrong direction. Um and 

Q. Interesting.

A. And I remember him also I think he was the one that told me.

Q. Did he teach you a useful skill you think? by getting you to step?

A. Oh, yeah, oh yeah. uhm. I mean now--

Q. So you'd be like squared off on a wall and then he'd tried to get you to step square out.

A. right if I didn't step straight out, he would say, you didn't, you know  you didn't do it.

Q. Were you able to sort of get a sense of what he was trying.

A. Oh yeah, I mean after a while I was. Also, he or somebody was the one that told me when a car is passing you going in front of you it will sound like it bends in closer to you a little bit and then bends out again. But when a car is on the side of you it will sound like it bends in closer especially on the side and at some point, you'll think it’s horizontal to you but if its far away it will be either directly in front of you or directly behind you.  So, you have to sort of keep that in mind. Uh hm. So, you know I'm glad of that. But, at one time he drove me.

Q. tedious.

A. Yeah, you were a kid, my mom is great she only remembers the good stuff. But uhm one time she said to me You know how was mobility. and I said I'm alive, aren't I? You know like don't bother me. uhm, but uhm Mr. Lloyd once drove me around and around in his car and let me out and he said find your way to the railroad station.  You know, purposely getting lost, and I know now since I deal with travel training a lot that that's really important, You know but I don’t'. I don't think I've really ever panicked getting lost. I think I was more panicked once when I was locked out of my college dorm room in my pajamas. But that was.

Q. Yeah that would be a cause for concern (laugh)

A. I was really embarrassed. When your lost then, then, then its um

Q. So, you do, like what skills did you use were you allowed to solicit aid?

A. I could talk to people, yeah and I could ask where I was. And I knew where the railroad station was. So eventually I realized that I was uh in Neptune, probably west of it. And You know its like, up to this day I use it. I don't ask people. Sometimes I won't ask people how to get to a specific. Like I won't ask them how to get to the railroad station. I'll ask them how to get to Brinley Ave. Which is closer.

Q. Right.

A.  Because its less complicated. Then when I get to Brinley Ave. I'll ask that person how to get to Main St. Because um its no use for me when I get big clumps of directions. Because I You know even if I have a slate and stylus just too much trouble to write it down.

Q. Sure.

A. And they're not going to tell it to me in ways that are going to be useful to me. You know they'll say well. They, they, they may not remember that its 4 blocks, or 3 blocks, or 5 blocks, You know.

Q. Right,

A. So, I tend to do that. You know Um, um. The other day. I went. and I wasn't happy about this. Um my wife took paratransit to Far Rockaway in Queens and they only had room for three people, sooo I figured that she would go with the kids and I would go take a train to Far Rockaway. No, you know it could be a very long trip, why don't you take the kids. So, I wasn't happy about that because I knew I had to coast. Meaning, You know ask for help at some point. Cause I don't go through Penn Station a lot. So, I get out of the subway, and I say to them. You have to go out of the subway system, you have to go through the turnstile and, and they're. And I'm ready to ask people and they're like pulling on me don't ask. Like they're embarrassed.

Q. Of course, cause they're kids.

A. And so I would ask, and I uh. You know again in that sort of getting closer to where you want to be way. And we got it. And I said to my daughter look for Long Island Rail Road. And then she said. I don't see it. So, I said, well what signs do you see? So, she said I see New Jersey Transit, LIRR. I said Oh that's it. LIRR that's Long Island Railroad. So, we went there and then we had a whole discussion about whether to go down to the track or not. But, um its interesting when I was, when my kids were. See now they're, now they can function as sources of information. You know look tell me what you see. You know what I mean? 

Q. Right, right.

A. When they couldn't do that, I remember having this tremendous anxiety about taking them anywhere. Even, even now in Manhattan. I do not let them walk alone except when they're on my block. In other words, if I'm with them I'm holding their hands. My daughter actually now um I have her cross 72nd street which is a  big street. And she can yell from the other side. I'm across or I'm there. And then she can go the rest of the way to school by herself. um they know a lot. I think that kids like, like to pick up stuff.

Q. Yeah.

A.  I think that they  uh, that they like to go on trains, and You know look down through the grate and see the subway. You know or they see their teacher going on a train, can we take that train. Or, my son, this was I don't know a year ago or something um. and I don't know they take metro cards as if they're really worth something. You know like uh, not just the actually monetary worth of them, but You know like, I want a MetroCard too. You know, about a year, I'm with my son and he wants to swipe through himself. so, uhm I go through first and a train is coming. Now he's confronted with a decision. He doesn't want to miss the train OK and he's having trouble swiping so he just goes under the gate.

Q. Yeah.

A.  So, I said, you know you shouldn't do that. And I'm going to pay an extra seven-- You know and extra 1.50 and I did the whole thing.

Q. How old are your kids?

A. Now they're almost 10 and 8. Uhm OK, one day when I was in 8th grade I went for a walk with my friend Robert MacGalister. I was certainly holding on to him. Um and we just, 2 O'clock we left, and we got lost. Although yeah, see when you live in a place where the ocean always on the east, you can't get lost. You just walk east, and you'll hit the ocean. 

Q. And you know its east because?

A. Well I mean when I was with Robert there was like.. well the sun You know, the sun's in the west and you go east. 

Q. Right.

A. And that's it. I remember we got to a place called Mammoth Co. Airport. And we knew that we weren't where we were supposed to be. But we were making jokes, oh it says Mammoth Co. Airport New Jersey's fastest growing airport. We said, yeah you know they have one plane, and they got another plane so they grew 100%.

Q. (laugh).

A.  Now. I don't know whether my mother found us or whether we got home, but it was like 7 O'clock. Why didn't you call? You know and I, as I remembered I could think of only two reasons. Number 1 was I couldn't understand why my parents would worry so much, and number 2 I really never thought I was lost that I had to be.. You know you go east; you know that's where the ocean is. um.

Q. Would you have been able to find a pay phone?

A. I guess if we would have thought about it we would. I don't even know if we had money with us.

Q. Right.

A. We just were kids. You know we said let's go for a walk.

Q. Yeah.

A. But I remember the next day having sore feet and being proud, You know I must have walked 15 miles. 

Q. Right.

A. Um, I do remember being very nervous when I went to Washington D.C. on one of those 8th grade class trips because it was, it wasn't just traveling, it was everything. You know keeping track of your clothes and You know where the bathroom it is always a concern to me. 

Q. Yes.

A. That's my survival. That's what I always. When I do familiarize myself with stuff. its always the bathroom comes first. 

Q. Sure.

A. Everything else I can deal with. Um, but when I'm away. I'm also much more worried about my possessions. 

Q. Right.

A. Where did I put this, how where I know where it is. Uhhh. 

Q. Are you worried about um, exchanging money, you having to get them to tell you the correct denomination, you know trusting a stranger.

A. No, You know not so much. I mean because most of the time I go to a place a lot.

Q. Well I mean like in DC. 

A. Oh, um not really, I mean it’s see again, you have to judge its like. How frequently do I go to Washington D.C. If it’s really an infrequent thing, I’m not going to waste my time um worrying about it. Um. I remember I was in Israel for a year and I … learned to travel certain routes and that was my territory. Um. There were amazing things. Ok well what happened was, uh it was in 73 that was when the Yum Kipper war was. OK in the fall and they took the buses that were supposed to be for pedestrians and they used them to get the soldiers where they needed to go. So, there were no buses. So, if you wanted to get from your college dorm to your class you had to walk. And I I learned it. I mean I learned it with help from people, um and I just learned it and I, I, I began to love it so much and I was I I really dreaded the idea of coming back to Columbia where you know there wasn't this sort of country to walk in. 

Q. Yeah,

A. And um I mean things would happen. When it rained there, you would have like little rivers flowing down. It was steep, it was hilly.  Um uh, there was one time when I was coming back from uhh, uhh the Jewish Theological Seminary over there was sort of above Hebrew University. And I lost my way but I knew it was downhill, so I just went downhill. I went through the bushes and everything and I did it. You know it just, you know that's why I say, you know, forget about the maps, because the other thing is, you always walk away from the map. I mean even if you bring your map with you, ummm its still not the same as having a sheet that says right, left. Because when you look at that sheet, that says right, left you know 50 feet whatever you can actually figure out well I've done this much so far. So probably I'm either here or near here. 

Q. Right.

A. you know I haven't, I haven't um

Q. But with a map.

A. right, it doesn't help. Now I haven't ever um used one of those um oh Arkanstone has them those locators that know where everything.

Q. Oh the GPS, whatever…?

A. Yeah, right but I you know I trust my cane, I you know and that's it. I don't even I mean, part of me always never trusts directions that I get from anybody. 

Q. Right.

A. Because I have to not trust. Um. Just a nice experience that happened to me once. Um. Sort of when you're an adult you get to sort of.. look back on things. I had a friend that I had gone. I was, I was in Israel with a youth group in 1969 and I really loved it. And people did take me most places, yeah everyplace actually.  um but also you got some environment stuff. There's this fortress there called Masada. Um and you go up what they called the snake path, and it really is a snake path. It twists around. And you could actually, um I'd be you'd be somewhere, and you'd hear people talking and they'd be hundreds of feet above you and you could say hello to them. And it would take you like 20 minutes to get to where they were. 

Q. Wow, really.

A. So you got stuff from that. OK my friend Riva. Ok she went to Israel; I was with her you know with a tour bus with about 60 kids. So, um it so happens that like. I know 10-12 years later, um she and I and a lot of other people went to this new JA kind of young leadership thing. Uhm and she walked with me and um you know I got my room, and she helped me find the room. and then both of us sort realized at the same instant you know she just about to say goodbye or go up and get her room and both of us realized that sort of like well what was I going to do now? You know. Um. 

Q. Right.

A. But I've had wonderful experiences um coasting. I once, I went to a convention in Chicago. Or Buffalo one of those places. And I wanted to go to services so I went out of the room, and I found my way to the elevator, which you can do I mean elevators make noise.

Q. Right

A. So, um I don't know whether I had a roommate or not. At that point, but I got into the elevator, and I said, um is anybody going to services. And this nice girl from TX took me there and she's my oldest friend really. I'm still in touch with her. 

Q. So, you met her that day.

A. Right. Because I, I , you know I publicly asked no one in particular in an elevator. 

Q. Yes,

A. You know. Um In 1996, um I was coming back from

Q. Had she ever assisted someone who was blind before?

A. I have no idea.  But she was

Q. You've known her forever I mean.

A. I could ask her. 

Q. She must have had some remarks on that (laugh)

A. She never did actually, 

Q. She didn't say anything

A. But she was the kind of person that would help anybody. That's another thing. This is real interesting. I guess everybody does it. But, um you can size a person up in about 10 seconds. And say how worth, how trustful is this person. Do I have to stay away from them. Are they drunk are they on drugs. Are they um, somebody who might rob me. Um if they ask me, if I'm lost and they ask me if I need help am I still better off saying no.

Q. Right. Is it the tone of voice? What is it?

A. It’s the tone of voice, it’s the, it’s the clarity of their language, its their way of asking um, but

Q. A feeling sometimes? Cause I sort of, sometimes I sort of get this sort of feeling in the back of my neck that this is a someone I don’t' want to trust I don’t want to be around any more.

A. Yeah, I think it’s the sound or it’s the verbal thing. I don't know what it is exactly. But its like it immediately goes into action. There's a cartoon once I saw called street calculus where you like assess all the factors (snap finger) are they listening to a boom box, are they um uhm do they have a lot of friends around them you know, um. I just have to tell you this, but this is something that goes on in the environment. I'm on a double-edged subway platform

Q. Right.

A.  and these kids if you leave work at like 2:20 you'll always hit the school kids. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And these kids are going watch out, watch out, watch out. you know and I was just annoyed, but I knew better than to talk to them. Because number 1 I was concentrating and number 2, you know, they might be rough. But I thought to myself later. I could have turned to them and said you couldn't walk 3 seconds on this platform with your eyes closed. It’s just a thought that I had.

Q. Have you ever been wrong?

A. About trusting somebody?

Q. Uh yeah about your immediate assessment that you know of?

A. Well know because I mean most of the time, if I'm wrong its that I might have stayed away from somebody who could help me but of course you never know that. 

Q. Right

A. I've never gotten help from somebody that I shouldn't have. I mean its its bad but I tend to trust women more than men, I tend to trust um, um let's see other categories. If somebody uses really fancy language, like may I assist you or do you require assistance. Unless they have a British accent, something going on. 

Q. Is that somebody you might not trust? 

A. I would not trust them. 

Q. Oh.

A. There's too much stuff going on.

Q. Like putting on airs.

A.  Like, like its as if. Or they're some people that that want to connect to you too much. you know, Hello my name is Brain. you know in New York, its terrible to say, but you don't trust somebody like that. you know um. Right.

Q. Laughter, it's true though you're absolutely right.

A. I mean I will trust foreign people because I figure they're you know they're either a little bit lost like I am, or they know what its like to be an outsider or whatever. That's the other thing that I noticed. Is that people who are disadvantaged will take will often want to help me more. Because I think in their mind, you know a black person says as bad white people are, this white person is worse off than I am because I can see. You know.

Q. Well I once read a quote from a prisoner who said he was going to learn to transcribe Braille because he wanted to help people who were less fortunate than himself. And it struck me well they're not in prison. You're in jail. to think that he was above..or better off.

A. You know we, we that blindness is the second most feared disease after cancer. 

Q. Right and now Aids is up there too, but its very much in the top.

A. That has to do with something known called the first-time syndrome. Which is that the first time you do anything its hard.

Q. Right.

A. You know and people don't realize that its not hard because its always going to be hard. It’s hard because um you're doing it for the first time. When I went to the Jewish Theological Seminary um, I had never really ordered in a cafeteria. I mean maybe I would get milk or something. But I always brought my lunch to school. And so, like I didn't know just the whole way that a cafeteria worked. Nobody'd been through it with me. And uh this lady named Laura helped me. You know and it was the first time and its that then I really did need help. Um, see part of not knowing where you are is a little bit of embarrassment. Its worse indoors than on the street. And I’m, I'm worse in doors than outdoors. I don't I haven't quite figured out why. Um, um I guess there are a lot of cues out you know outside has sidewalks and streets. Um inside you know hallways aren't always straight, um there isn't always noise. That kind of thing.

Q. Did you get much instruction inside. It sounded like you started outside when you talked to me earlier about. Well, like with the cane it started with your arch.

A. NO, I didn't do, I didn't do inside a lot I do remember going to school early like the day before real school and learning where things were, but I don't remember that as really helping me that much. 

Q. Right that you'd need it, you know it wasn't about learning a skill to get oriented inside.

A. Right because, because um again, if I had, even at that young age. If I had just broken things down into left and right turns that would have been easier. Um, I, I remember once walking down the hall in first grade and I just have been going by myself. And I went into a room and the kids said wrong room, wrong room. And I I felt really embarrassed. I mean I played it over in my head. So, I guess I did, I've must have gone a little bit by myself in school. Um. See I can't not separate travel from the world.  In other words. What I’m going to tell you now to me is part of travel. I had, I had an idea in my head of what clouds were. I thought of them as like building blocks. That when they hit themselves together than it would rain. I thought of the ocean like if a wave comes in here on the American side than it must mean that in Europe its going out. you know which is just that's how it is.  And then later I realized that that isn't so. You   know. I, I I got a lot of ocean learning, because we were always on the beach. Uhm I I a few times in my life. I really did ride a wave in. Its not so easy to do for anybody I don't think. But uhm. Once or twice I also got knocked around by a wave. you know Lots of times I would hear a wave coming and dive in and go under it and have that experience. That I mean my father, he was in the ocean with us a lot and we would just talk about stuff. you know, where were the breakers, were there breakers. Was it high tide, was it low tide. You know when the hurricane is even if its 700 miles away the undertow is strong. And the lifeguards have roped off and you can't swim past the ropes um, but you could really feel it. I mean. I once. I don't whether it was a wave that hit me or what. But I once fell onto one of these metal strips that stick out from the jetty, and I had to get stitches. But it was you know this is you do this. Um, even things like phases of the moon. I never understood that. My brother finally, he was into geology. He's a geologist. He explained it to me. With like uh three objects like a lamp. I don't know whether it was I was the earth, and he was the moon, and the lamp was the sun, but he showed me, like when, when the earth was here it only allows a certain amount of the light to get to the moon. so, I understand now why, um, um … let's see. when it’s the beginning of the month is passing between the earth and the sun because then no light from the sun hits the earth. Something like that. But At one time I did understand.

Q. Laughter. And you notice I'm not jumping in to clarify or anything. I know there's something along those lines.

A. Ok, um now. Also, I remember great things about the beach. Like the beach was different at high tide. The water would make a hill. At low tide you had a lot of this flat sand, um they would say. You know today the ocean is as calm as a lake. I remember being on the beach the day Roger Maris hit his 61st homerun. It was October, the air was cold but you could go into the ocean cause that was still warm from the summer. Um. There was this thing that my father used to do. I would come out of the ocean. I would be walking with him and there were a couple of times when I would go into the ocean myself and somebody would be watching me, but I was by myself. But I would come out. and um it would there would be the beach blanket in front of me um and he would say Knees which meant you know kneel down. And I always was amazed that that he knew exactly where I should kneel down so that my head was at the other edge of the blanket. Um I there were times when the ocean was rough, and I remember the ocean coming all the way up to where we were sitting. Where our beach stuff was. Um I remember being on the boardwalk.  Just before a hurricane. And hearing the water actually go underneath the boardwalk and foam up. And uh. I remember um when I was there was hurricane Donna. That was the bad one in 61 or 62. I remember um … I don't know whether I saw it or had it described. But I, I was clearly told that the ocean went under the boardwalk, it hit the wall of the building. It had nowhere to go so it went  up. And it made the boardwalk bend up just like that. (bent a piece of paper) Like the wood would just bend up in the back that's how powerful the ocean was. And there was a little place where you used to buy your badges. And it was gone. Completely gone except for like the bottom part of the toilet was still there. That was it. And I mean I knew what that meant. I knew how big the badge house was. you know um it was just amazing. Um. let's see. Uhm. I remember going on a toboggan. I remember my father once after a storm building like a little snow hill so we could go down in flying saucers. Um I remember throwing ice up onto the roof. It would be like one of these things where it would be a puddle, and it would freeze and you could just take these chunks of ice. And I'd say. I’m going to throw it up on the roof and the next day when its sunny out its going to melt and its going to drip down. So, I would just do that. um. 

Q. Do you remember the first time you crossed a street by yourself?

A. I guess it was when I went to school. I never remember it; I don't remember anything more than that.

Q. What about like a real busy intersection that you were analyzing the traffic.

A. I do remember it in connection with Mr. Lloyd in 8th grade. with main street which was by my standards pretty busy. But I didn't regularly travel outside of Ashbury until like I was in 10th grade. And then my counselor Mrs. Nather. Had me start taking buses. And that I do remember. I mean there were like traffic lights and stuff like that. Um. I just remember by the time that I was in high school I did cross streets with lights on a regular basis.

Q. And you took the bus?

A. Right, not so much on a regular basis. I also remember once. um I used to walk to high school. See when going to high school was different than going to Grammar school. You had to go up to main street to the railroad station because that's where the bus picked you  up. And I, um my brother and I are a year apart and I remember being so annoyed at him in the morning. that I really just wanted to go on my own. And it was embarrassing to him because everybody would see that I was going by myself. And I think he begged me not to do it, 

Q. Right.

A. but I said I'm going to do it. My streets crossing a street um. I don't remember it as being a first time thing because the streets were so little. 

Q. I mean you spent a lot a great deal of your time with your boundaries and taking good care that you didn't cross so when it came time to cross and to use that to get to school, by then you had accepted that that was something that needed to be done?

A. Right, but again, I might have had the experience of say, um um. With say my brother there going down our driveway and across the street maybe there was a ball there or I had to throw it to him or something or he would take a flashlight and shine and see if I could feel it. But I mean crossing a street I might have down on one of those sort of adventures with your brother kind of thing. But you know there wasn't that much traffic. You know those boundary things were when I was really little. but you know by the time I was in third grade I didn't think in terms of falling off the curb. I don't think. uM. 

Q. You were doing it.

A. Yeah, I mean but again I don't remember you know uh the first time that I ever crossed on my own. It just sort of happened. Um. But I you know the first time that I went to, to school on my own. Um. 

Q. Primarily because it was when your mom was there and was caught.

A. Right, right, but also you know I mean I knew although it wasn't expressed in these words, I knew that you had to be cleared to do something by your mobility instructor. I knew that idea. I mean, I don't remember the words clearance, but it was it was it was clear to me that they wouldn't let me do anything unless they were absolutely sure that I could do it. I think that I was secure in that. My parents were secure in that. Um. … 

Q. Did you have mobility instruction when you learned to use the subways?

A. No.

Q. Once you finished school you finished with all that?

A. Well one time, maybe my first uh couple days when I was a freshman there was a mobility teacher that sort of explained things to me. Uhm but I certainly do remember my first subway ride.

Q. Oh?

A. You know I was scared. Um. And I remember being scared of double-edged platforms. I still don't like them a lot. um but you know you always have this fear of falling off. you know. 

Q. Who were you with and how did you know that there were double edged platforms there? Did you hear the trains or?

A. I don't know, I mean maybe I picked it up from my friends. Like I had friends at 92nd street. Uhm. And, I lived at Columbia and 116th so I had to take that train at 96th street and I remember once. I remember it was late at night I walked into the 96th street. and somehow I. you know people always talk about the stations that they're in and somehow, I knew that that was double edged. And it was super quiet. And then a train came, and it was really terrifying noise. Um, especially coming from such a background.v When I cam back from Israel after a year. I did not at all like the idea of when you went outside a blanket of noise hit you immediately. And I did not like the subways. But you know then you get used to it.

Q. Have you ever fallen in?

A. No. I've hit the edge. I've, I've, I've been tense with my knees straight you know and not even taking my feet off the floor. But you know I ask for help now more than I used to. you know but its, but I, I you know. This is my. I deal with this stuff. I deal with people who've fallen in so uh. I know about it.

Q. What different mobility tools have you tried?

A. Just the cane. I mean the only, the only different tool really is I, when I go to a wedding or something you know I will be mostly with people I’ll use one of these telescoping canes which I can’t seem to find anymore. You know to buy them. But uhhm. I never, I never had room for a dog, and I never liked the idea of having to take a dog out 2 or 3 times a day. right, um. I once heard a tape about the laser cane and whatever it was, but I I didn't feel lacking when I used my cane. I mean I've hit you know pay phones that stick out from nowhere. But even so, I've never felt that I needed something else. See, with a with a cane  its just you, the cane, and the and the territory. There's no battery, there's no --

Q. noises.

A. right exactly. Um I do not like the rolling tip cane.  um because it’s too quiet. Uhm. 

Q. Do you know people who swear by it?

A. Uhm. I don't know any blind people who do.

Q. Interesting way to put that.

A. I mean I don't know that many, yeah, um there are .. some people really do. Um OK..

Q. People with low vision people, people with or um sighted people?

A. I, I well I think some of the instructors swear by it. Or I've heard from some instructor that other ones swear by it. Um OK. 

Q. So why do you use a folding cane or why do you like the telescope cane as opposed to say a rigid cane?

A. Well no I only like the telescope cane. I'm talking about the one that sections go inside each other. 

Q. Yeah I know what you're talking about.

A. I only like that because it fits in my pocket. I mean if I'm dancing or you know, you know. Uh, I have not found a convenient way to carry my cane when I'm not using it. Its always sort of … you know in the way. and Uh I've forgotten my cane a couple of times. I once went to a uhm visiting day up to a camp.  Because I had been a counselor, and I figured some of the kids would still be up there. And I had a ride back, but I took a bus up. And I was with people, and I got off the bus and uh did not take my cane. So, I’m talking to my former campers about it. And one of them goes and breaks a branch off a tree and says here use this. I thought that was great.

Q. Did you?

A. Yeah, I mean I didn't really have to, cause I knew I had a ride home I really didn't have to do to many things, but um. 

Q. Well that worked for an afternoon huh?

A. Yeah it was a lot of fun. Uh ok. Umh lets see here… I don't, I don't think I am going to talk about how I, I had a picture of the whole East of the Mississippi with all the rivers and stuff like that, but its. I like that I like you know I like I guess maps did help me with the states. Because they were big. You know I wasn't going to walk all the way across Florida. you know what I mean. Maps don't help where I actually have to walk. They help me with knowing where say Oregon, Washington, and California are. or Minnesota and Wisconsin and things like that. Um I've been sort of noticing my travel in the last couple of days cause I knew I was coming here. I had to go to 60th street between 1st and 2nd on Sunday night. So, um this is about decision making. I get out, first of all, uhm I went to see somebody, and she had a little daughter who's seven. So, her mother said Anne Take Michael downstairs so, she went with me in the elevator and we're at the door and she said do you need help out the gate. And I said no, even though I would have liked help, because I thought number 1 I'm proud and number 2 I didn't think this kid was like, had real shoes on. I wasn't sure. And I thought I could do it myself. I figured the streets out there I'll hear the street, and I sort of basically did. you know somebody saw me and helped me a little bit. But that sort of what goes on. Um then I get on 60th.

Q. So what happened? You were in the yard and 

A. And I just sort of listened for cars and so I hit the side, see I figured this way, a gate is an entrance and there can only be so many entrances. If I don't hit the entrance, if it’s a gate it means there's other things around it. you know what I mean. I'm not going to walk for miles in an uncertain direction. So, if I hit a wall, I'll just follow it and eventually I'll get to the gate. You know and to me sometimes even now its worth spending the extra 5 minutes rather than getting help. And you also, you know, you did it, you figured it out. Its OK.

Q. Right, but do you then you're like you're learning something new, you're getting a chance to interact with the environment?

A. No, it’s not that fancy, I just did it. and I didn't need help. Um Its sort of like, I guess, when you're driving, and you don't want to admit that you're lost. And you find your way back. 

Q. That would be men I think, laughter.

A. But in this case, there is real rationale. But then I go down 60th to what I think is 1st Ave. Because I figure if I’m taking the M57 I want to be on the West side of 1st cause I think that's where it stops. 

Q. Right.

A. However, what I didn't realize was that that's the beginning of the 59th St. bridge over there. So, this guy is yelling at me and I at first, I'm not, my defenses are up. 

Q. Right

A. And um then I finally realize that OK, you know he's right and he turns out to be a bus driver, so he takes me on the bus to 2nd Ave. And then I make my way down. But see I still you know will go out, sometimes go out of my way whatever. Um, um

Q. So this was really an occasion where you weren't 100% sure, you hadn't burned this route in 

A. Oh, not at all but, I was sure.

Q. You had a sense of where you needed to go.

A. Right in my mind I was sure that there was a 1st Ave at 60th street that went down to 57th street. I had gone up first Ave. from downtown in a taxi and I never, you know, it sort of didn't occur to me that well if a car can go there, it doesn't mean that a person can go there. you know what I mean?

Q. Right.

A. So I figured well I'm pretty sure of how things are and uh I'm going to go to first Ave. Next time I do it I will go to 2nd Ave. Uhm, see again. I don't, I don't separate cane travel from the rest of travel. I mean I don't know I don't know. When I go on a plane um, I can't see what's out the window and sometimes when you're going up and it goes up slower it feels like he's going down. And sometimes when you're landing it decelerates in a downward direction your poor body doesn’t know about that it thinks, it feels like you're going up. It’s the most amazing thing. I mean obviously I don't need to know that to survive, the pilot is driving the plane but it’s just there. I mean, I mean it’s just sort of there. Um, I'm going to tell you about my travel nightmares. I mean, I mean real dreams, real nightmares. 

Q. Ohh.

A. This one happened when my father was, was, was dying and I knew he was dying. Uhm, I was on.. 72nd street and west end on the NW side. And I had to cross to get to my apartment. But as I started to cross, I felt this overwhelming sense of fatigue and I knew that I had to get across before the light changed, but I was less and less able to move. Uhm. I had that same kind of dream also after a very disappointing social noninteraction. So, its, I don't know. That's what it, that's what it uh. I just threw that in. With my kids I do things that I don't think I was do if I didn't have kids. Uh there was this place called wonder camp. And they wanted me to go on the slide. That was it, I was going to go on the super slide. I did. I mean. I didn't like it so much. It really does make you go fast. And also, I'm fatter than a kid you know so I got a little bruised up. But you know I did it. At the liberty hall of science, I think in Jersey City. Or the hall of science in Queens. One of those places they have a touch tone which is like completely dark, black, dark and you have to feel your way through it. So, I went with my kids you know uhm and I you know was kind of proud of that. There were some very sharp turns, and I sort of knew that you had to follow a wall no matter what it did.

Q. Right.

A. I couldn't tell, at that that Time I couldn't verbalize that to them, um, I think my daughter tended to want to go straighter, but um what was interesting to me is that she was more scared than my son. Who was younger, so. um. I also notice myself I would give them, you know when they were little I would give them lots of experiences like um… oh especially my daughter, just because you know she was everything to me, um, I would take her out by the um, um... we live in an apartment and by the stairwell there's garbage cans with lids on them so I would take her out and I would maybe she would be like a year and a half old and I would jump her up and down on top of the lids so it would make a lot of noise you know. And um. On the Sabbath I don't use the elevator so I would carry her down the stairs sometimes. And once I was at the elevator, this has to do more with communication, but I just put it in. Its just part of everything cause like you said either you're external or you're internal, you know what I mean. And once you're external, you pick up stuff. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Anyway so I was carrying her down the stairs and singing and she loved that she used to make me do that all the time. So, one time I’m by the elevator I press the elevator button and I'm holding her, and she wrenches her body like that, and I knew that she wanted to go down the stairs. I knew and she knew that she couldn't point, that she had to communicate with me in some nonvisual way. Uhm. To me its much more exciting when you ask me when did I realize I couldn't see, Its much more exciting to watch my kids. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Uhm. I have to tell you this experience I just haven't shared with many people. Uhm but since you asked about knowing about the loss of vision. Its there, its poignant. when I had my daughter, when my wife gave birth. I uhm. … you know they, they tend to look at you, the parent, as if  you're God. you know you um, you come. First, you know you pick them up and they stop crying. Then all they have to do is hear your voice and they'll stop crying. You know um there was this one time I remember; my daughter had a fever. I know this is getting off a little bit but, um she was really out of it and a really panicking out and I just picked her up and kind of rocked her back and forth in a confident way and she calmed down. And she knew I couldn't see. I mean, she, my wife tells this story of that um I was, she must have been about 10 months old, and the TV was one and I was standing in the way so she kind of looked at my wife to let her know that she wasn't happy that I was blocking the TV. Uh. But she knew in a certain way that  I couldn't see. And, but.

Q. She wouldn't get the same kind of response from you as from your wife.

A. Right. But, um we never talked about it. And then one day, and remember, I’m God. OK, 

Q. Sure,

A. When she was 3, one night I’m putting her to bed and there's always this nice moment when they're not fighting anymore about going to be and they're just  sort of lying there. And she says to me, you don't see very well, do you? and I said to her. Who told you? Because what it meant was, I wasn't God anymore. you know I was God who couldn't see. But when she said that. Somehow--I said who told you. And she said it was this book--my wife is very into disability books--so there was this girl with a cane, whatever it was. So, she made that connection. So that rather than coming from the inside full view, it came from the outside partial view. um. … ok um… I just have to tell you another travel story with my daughter. Um. see again its not just travel. Its external stuff. Its umh. My wife uses a scooter, not a power motorized wheelchair, well now she does, but at that time she was using a scooter. She has, she had polio. So, I was holding on to my wife's scooter on the back there. And my daughter was behind me with the babysitter. And so basically my back was to my daughter, but every once and a while I would turn and make a face at her. And she would laugh. I mean. She would jump. I would do crazy things just to make her laugh. Um another environment experience. this goes back to 8th grade high school. I had a friend Bob Baron. He was actually my parent's fried. We used to take walks. and um one of our favorite places was a place call south mountain reservation. Which is like a--if you go west of Nurop you hit west orange and a couple--not really a mountain, but its high. So we would stand on the top and he would tell me what we were overlooking. Uhm OK, we're getting near the end here. Um. 

Q. so do you have uhm, I mean there's up and there's down and there's right and there's left and there's noise. Is that the best way to describe landmarks for you or when establishing your position, knowing where you are?

A. Yes, but again remember that um, that. I'm always looking at a little world. That is the world that I'm in the middle of right now. Right now, I'm in a room and I'm sitting in a chair. I'm not thinking about the funny opening of this building. although I know its out there because I don't have deal with it right now. In other words, if I was to talk, when I walk out of this building I will first. Well, I am going to ask you to take me but if I were walking out on my own. I would first think of. I could only think of like the immediate 10 feet around me. Unless there was a sound. No of course I could hear cars far away. But I'm not interested in, I’m only interested in what matters at the moment. And that will change from moment to moment. But I'm only concentrating, on what should be there in any particular moment. 

Q. So what should be there is the elevator?

A. Right, or what should be there, right it should be noise, right, right the escalator. and then when I get out the escalator its well which way are the people going, do I hear a door, you know um, when I get out, when I get through the door, its um do I hear cars. I know this is a funny opening, when I get out to the street its um well what's the next corner, and then um, what street am I at right now, because I'm going to go up and take the M72, um and then when I'm on the M72 is when do we make that left turn on Westend which let's me know that we're right in front of my house. So, its, its like. What's right before and I this is true on the subways also. What's the stop right before, what's the stop I have to get off and what's the stop after in case I miss it.

Q. Right.

A. Um. and I block everything else out until I need it. Uh, its only the. like the only place now well the best, the easiest place now that I could picture without being there is my the apartment that I live in. A little less clear is the office that I’m in. And I still don't know uhm, where everybody in that office is. Because I don't have to see them a lot. 

Q. Right.

A. I know where my secretary is. I know where my boss is, I know where the, her boss is. Uhm. But I don't know where exactly where the manager of contracts is. I know what his phone number is. And so, I need to ask for help when I go down there. Its like I have "x" amount of brain power, and I have to make a decision how I'm going to use it. Uhm. Sometimes I say to people its easier for me to go away for a year than it is to go away for a week 

Q. Yeah.

A. because um you know we're going to Israel for 2 weeks and I know that when I'm there. I’m going to lose a lot. Uhm. But if knowing that, you know so I don't care.

Q. You're going to lose a lot of?

A. I'm not going to have that micropreception of things.

Q. Right.

A.  Uhm, you know I'll just have, I'll just know where the room is and the bathroom and maybe the door. and that's it. 

Q. From then on you be sighted guiding.

A. right, right, right, um but I couldn't live in a world like that. I couldn't. I mean. One of the breaks that I get in life is that when I get older, I won't lose my ability to drive because I never had it. 

Q. Right.

A. you know so I fear Alzheimer's disease more than loss of vision.

Q. Yeah.

A.  I fear losing my ability to judge. Uhm. But see again I mean that's why I like the written word so much because I don't have to remember. I always didn't understand when the mobility teachers would give you like tons of information and expect you to remember it all. I just didn't understand it. I mean. Let me write it down. Or give it to me in writing, or something and then I don't have to concentrate on all of it at the same time. Because in any particular moment I'm not interested in everything else. I'm just interested in say, um, um that the bus on main street stops in front of the 5 and 10 and am I there or not. you know. Um not in everything else that's around me in the street. Although I may to use that at a later time. 

Q. Right.

A. But um its like how do you know what to load up your memory with when you don't quite know yet what's going to be important to you. And sometimes it may even be that what's important to the mobility instructor is not to me, what's important to me is not to them. I'm talking about landmarks. 

Q. Yes,

A. Um. Peggy Gross. I don’t know whether you’ve met her or now. But she's like the queen of travel training for the high schools. Um. She talks about that. And she goes out with people who are cognitively impaired, and she says to them, what do you see, what do you notice? It’s like my chiropractor’s door has on it around Christmas time it has a wreath, so that's helpful. Um, I can't think right now of a difference of importance of landmarks, but um I know it exists.

Q. I know exactly what you're talking about because when I was at the University of Texas getting my master's in mobility there was this definition of landmarks that they had to be unique and permanent. And when I did my dissertation on landmarks I found that sighted kids used stories, they used past experiences, they used things that they knew about places to remember where they were. They used little tiny things, as well as so there was this sort of, uhm whole range of things, and it hit me well I do the very same thing. So, it makes no sense that we should try to pigeonhole people with visual impairments into just having (tape side end)

A. There's a scientist up at MIT named Nancy Kanwisher and she actually has found what seems to be a positioning mechanism in the brain. Um. I got her email when I wrote to her her and we've had some nice exchanges so, um anyway getting back to landmarks. The thing is that you can't take a map with you. And you know that talking kiosk, on um by the long island railroad.

Q. Right

A. That's the great disadvantage of it is you have to get all of your information while you're there. 

Q. Right

A. And then you say wait, they're giving me sequence of things and I really have to remember the sequence. Why don't they just hand me a piece of paper that has the same thing on it. You know in writing. Um. 

Q. Well the interesting thing is is if there's an information booth there's a person, would that have been as effective?

A. I don't know because they might not, again, when and I guess people who are driving have the same problem when you get to the fifth right or left turn you start to not remember. 

Q. Right.

A. Um and I for me no writing device has yet been invented that I can use when I'm standing with no table. 

Q. Well, what right, that's right, but what about if you had written something down say on a braille n-speak and could sort of turn it on and open a file. 

A. Right I might be able to do it that way, but I think I might in that case I might just write it down in Braille and go. And then just have the Braille with me.

Q. Right.

A.  You know uh on one sheet in a pocket. You know something like that.

Q. Of course that's what I do as well. Is I just bring all that on a piece of paper.

A. Yeah. Um. I really believe that there is a, OK they did this experiment with kittens once where they like blindfolded them at a certain age and their skills never developed really because the kittens needed the stimulation from the environment to help their brain grow to how it was supposed to grow. And I really wonder if travel deprived people actually suffer kind of stimulus deprivation where even when you try to teach them later, they just don't get it because things didn't happen when they were supposed to happen. I don't know. 

Q. That's, that's an interesting point because there are a lot of people who feel like they're just very bad at it, and very much I mean they can get places, but they don't like to go places and they don't trust themselves to do it by themselves. 

A. Yeah, see I, I think see because again I compare travel to other areas in which I'm no so great. Like cooking. And there I didn't get the experience in small increments. I got it taught later. Uhm and now You know when I get old, I'm going to buy healthy takeout food. That's it.

Q. There you go. Well in New York you can get McDonald's delivered. Did you know that?

A. You can get what?

Q. McDonald's delivered. I was in a store today and the employees had McDonald's delivered. I'm constantly amazed by New York and what they will deliver to your door.

A. See I don't mind, see again here's where it interplays. I don't mind going out to get it, in fact that's kind of fun. 

Q. Yeah.

A. You know. uh, there's this place called meal mart that was open for many years and just closed. But every two weeks they had their Monday night special. You know and every two weeks I would go down and get You know there would be 8 pieces of fried chicken, whatever it was; You know. Um, I have I feel a great sense of mastery in travel. You know. I know when I take the train from 53rd, sometimes I have to go to 90th and central park west. So, what I always used to do was to um wait at the back of the train and take say the C train to 86th street. And then go out on 86th street and walk up. And one day I'm walking on, I'm walking up and I hear people coming out of the station at 88th street. And I say wow, that means that there must be an exit there. So now when I go down, I'll, it’s a single sided edge at 86th. so, I'll walk along until I get to that entrance. And nobody's there. I don't have to worry about street crossings. Um and I can listen to the trains. You know there's the one downstairs, 

Q. Right.

A. You know it’s a different experience. I probably wouldn't recommend it, but at least I have the option. This is the way I want to go. 

Q. Yeah.

A. You know. uhm. OK let's see. Uhm. I think that about covers it, but I'd be happy to answer questions that you have.

Q. Well if you can, have been reminded of any kinds of things like the wreath on the doctor's door or any of those things that uhm, that are alternate landmarks or do you have any concept of say addresses?

A. Well, yeah, I think I'm like most New Yorkers. If I hear 303 West 60th I can give, or East 60th I can You know say well that's probably 3rd, 2nd, 1st Ave. or something like that. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. But um I remember when I um, when I if you go to Stuyvesant town, for instance. You, the streets kind of get crooked. And somebody could have an address of uh 4, You know 168 E. 20th. But really the best entrance to take in is the 3rd opening as you're coming up avenue C and then you just follow around in a circle. You know. I certainly have a concept of the address being one place and the entrance being another place. uhm, uhm, you know Jewish people have what' s called Mezuzah’s on their door. I don't know if you've seen them, they're like uh these, well they are different materials but they're like a little case that has some writing in it. So, you can always tell when you're at a Jewish house if, they, I mean not every Jewish person puts it up. But you can tell that. There's a big, big building um, called the Schwab house which goes literally from a whole square block. 73rd to 74th and West End to riverside. It is so big that it has its own polling place right in the building. Um. I've gotten lost in there a number of times. And then you have to decide who's door am I going to knock on. 

Q. Right.

A.  So, you look for a door that either people are talking, or there's music coming out of or you hear like some activity coming out of. Um, or you look for the elevator and go back down to the lobby. Um. Let's see other, other things. Sometimes, like how are you going to find a particular person's desk. You know, sometimes people You know  in your office. Sometimes people will have a squirrel or y You know they'll have a thing. They, they decorate their desk. uh Subway signs. And this has to be, this is completely off the record from my work experience. I have no use for subway signs. Ok have you seen them yet? 

Q. The Braille ones?

A. Yeah, 

Q. Yeah no I've only heard about 'em.

A. Yeah you go to 51st and Lex you'll see 'em.

Q. Oh OK cause I don't use that station.

A. Uhm. First of all, they put them perpendicular. Let me put it this way. If you're walking down the um path, you know platform. You have to turn left or right in order to read the sign because AFB said, they don't want you to be in the line of traffic while you're reading the sign. Well, that's great, but then after you're finished reading the sign maybe you forgot whether you turned left or right, You know? Now what do you do?

Q. Right. That's a problem.

A. I mean I really wonder whether these signs. You know it’s ADA OK, ADA says you have to have it. I just have this feeling that ADA I don't know I mean, did ADA sort of just say well if sighted people have signs, then blind people have to have signs. Maybe signs aren't the best thing. I don't know.

Q. Well I mean, sometimes I get the feeling that they come out of the whole wheelchair movement and the rest of the disabilities sort of get--

A. Wheelchaired in

Q. laughter (yeah) right its like what do we need to do for them, but I think there was a whole issue of uhm getting the information and its always been the big question mark, what is the best way to do signage and they haven't come up with one right method and, and yet there's yet that it is important that we can find a way uhm but then how do you locate the sign? and I remember from very early on they used to put signs like behind doors where if someone came through you'd smacked by the door. So, it’s just been crazy all the different ways its gone through.

A. I mean I have an answer to the locating signs, have 'em put out with, with a tone that just keeps beeping. or something.

Q. Nobody wants to live with that, that's the problem.

A. Right but if its low enough. You know what the thing is this in a subway station if people are allowed to play music  

Q. Right.

A. uhm then they can have this beeping. That's another thing, I mean again this is aside from my professional stuff. I think that the noise in the subway system in terms of the musicians is dangerous. Because it really, sometimes I have this fantasy of what I'd like to do take a 1000 flashlights and flash them around at sighted people, and then they'd say well we can't see I would say this is my art expression.

Q. laughter. That's wonderful.

A. You know I think it’s sensory discrimination. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And I know that they brought it to court and lost because of the right to play music or whatever and the other fantasy I have is getting really rich and going into the subway and saying here's 10 dollars just don't play anything until I get on the train. 

Q. Right, right, right.

A. See I think what bothers me as a blind person is not the things that I can't do, I will never drive a car, I'll never see the sun set, ok, it’s the things that I could do if I had the resources to do them. You know. Uhm. Like it bothers me that say an insurance company will pay for a wheelchair, but not for a reading machine. Uhm. that's where I think action should be. You know it bothers me that, that scientists spend millions of dollars doing research on a chip that will give somebody some kind of primordial vision when you could have a lot of benefits that vision brings if you just gave everybody who would have used this vision thing a reading machine.

Q. Well that's why I think licensure is the next step. Because if they had a licensed professional who then say, recommended it like a doctor recommends something, then the insurance would reimburse that. Yeah. How has ADA, other than the signs, has that had an effect or do you notice any kind of before and aftereffects?

A. Uhm, well let me just tell you a story. ok. um. I'm-- this is 1988, You know we're still building up to ADA. Ok we go to a meeting with uh lots of important people who know what they're talking about. Uhm. And, they're talking about this and that. And I ask about what about information. And they say well the technology will do that for you. And, OK I have noticed. I mean. I've been very lucky I work for a big company I've gotten a lot of technology. OK. But they have something called the paratransit system. Which takes care of every possible, conceivable transportation exigency that a person in a wheelchair will deal with there is nothing called a para information system. There is auxiliary aids, which as far as I'm concerned are Band-Aids. Readers, qualified readers you know, uhm there is no; why isn't there one central place that the government hires to do all its Braille. And fax, email in stuff you know and just everybody would know that's the way you do it, you know. Uhm it just wasn't planned in that very central way that the wheelchair stuff was. 

Q. Yeah, they had a lot stronger voice.

A. And I hope if they every do it again, yeah, 

Q. And a united voice, I mean uhm I don't think our has ever field had a united voice that says that we want this is want our needs are. We all want this for the field.

A. Right. I think everybody in your profession should read a book called wishcraft by Barbara Sher, it talks about basically about people developing their own style, um as I said before that was a little bit left out of my mobility. 

Q. It does sound like it yeah.

A. Although I must say that you know uhm I think there were a lot of battles fought that I didn't even know about it. In my, you know I have this vague feeling that there was some discussion of phys. ed. Not that I ever particularly liked phys. ed. but I got to do it. Uhm, uhm, I know that the school nurse on the trip to Washington was extremely nervous about the fact that I was taking the roller coaster, but my uhm my roommates or so to speak the people I was with were sort of picked out um as people who sort of knew what they were doing you know not wild kids they were friends of mine also, but they were kids that had their heads on their shoulders. You know so basically, I stuck with them and we avoided the school nurse. You know.

Q. Well did you have an uh te--an itinerant or resource or what kind of..

A. I grew up in the 50s I grew up in a long-gone era. I had, I went to a public school in a small town and so the counselor would sort of come around. I guess is that itinerant? 

Q. And you called her a counselor, did she teach you Braille and Nemeth and..? 

A. Uh yeah, yeah, she came like, I don't know maybe two three times a week, you know with books and things. 

Q. Did your books come in Braille?

A. Yeah, I mean I remember having the Braille training at home where they'd say like which dot is different in these four? Or you know find the two that are similar in this row, and you know then going on to books. And uh Braille writers and things like that uh.  

Q. For a very long time it was through hearing when you were young?

A. When I was a kid, yeah, I mean well it is for kids also, though you know for sighted kids. Except you know I didn't have pictures, but uh I started Braille when I was in kindergarten.

Q. You did?

A. I mean basically I kept up with my classmates

Q. Oh good.

A. so that was never a problem. I, I started to type when I was in second grade.

Q. Wonderful.

A. I still remember Mr. Levy if your able keep your elbows on the table. You know. Uhm I learned slate and stylus. I think that was sort of a thing where they felt they had too. I, I, I guess I'm glad that I did. Uh let's see what else.

Q. Are you a member of any professional organizations or?

A. Uhm I sort of, I sort of joined NFB and I haven't kept up with them, but I think they do good work. I don't know why every teacher, every person in the rehab profession, they should all know about the Newsline that they have where you can get the, the New York Times over the phone.

Q. Sure,

A. That is a tremendous breakthrough. Its tremendous. That's always been my sorespot is the information and this is sort of a remedy to it. Uhm.

Q. Have you ever been to a convention or conference?

A. No, well yeah, I mean many years ago. Sort of a state one, but I wasn't ever really active. I was more active in Jewish groups. 

Q. Ah uhm hum.

A. I also felt I was always also uh. I resented the fact that people would say that you should be a good student, but the recognition would really go to the athletes. You know so when they had that shooting in Colorado, there's no excuse for it, but I know you know everybody pays lip service to good students but they don't get cheered. Uhm.

Q. It was all the athletes.

A. I mean I was a varsity scholar, but you got a sweater with a letter and that was basically it. Uh, though I must I also have to say that I maybe this has to do with my style of travel. In terms of liking the written word, but I really feel equal in the realm of ideas. In the ability to think and that's why. I don't know, that's just how I am. I like to think things out. Um  I like one time, this is travel. I'm in the car with somebody and we're going, we're in the Bronx, we didn't need to be in the Bronx and it’s a bad neighborhood in the Bronx we're going north and I say to her if you just keep going west and south we have to eventually get to Manhattan and so she's doing it and its sort of not working out and she has to call her husband and its late at night uhm and then so I wrote to my niece later who's like we all know she's the best driver. And I spoke to her and she said your instincts were right but you actually should have gone more north and they you would've got to the, the cross Bronx expressway. So, I understand the idea of having to go out of your way to get to where you need to go, uh, uh, I think the Newark museum once had a model of roads in New Jersey and that was very helpful. I find models to be much more helpful than maps because you actually can see the roads, you know or see the its three dimensional. I've never been good at translating two dimensions into three. I can not look at something that's showing one floor of stairs then another floor. To me a floor is down here then the stairs go up and the other floor is on top and that's the end of that.

Q. Right.

A. Uhm. Now I don't. I know that they have all these shapely things, now uh I just don’t' know, I just don’t' know uhm whether I was deprived or whether I just never worked for me I guess everybody has their own learning style. Uhm, I used to, when my parents would go like twice a year to visit their parents graves at the cemetery you can read the epitaphs I mean their raised letters. So that's what I used to do. I think like knowing the shape of printed letters is, is pretty important, because you never know when you might have a sign or something like that. Uhm. And it’s kind of fun. I wouldn't ram it down somebody's throat, but you know I had a book I forget who put it out there was some four-volume book put out that was like the complete Braille everything. And they had like Greek and Nemeth and German and they would have print representations of what they were showing. I just kind of had it around and you know just would look at it occasionally. Um, so I know um once when I wasn't married to my wife, I was dating so I wrote on a piece of paper I love you, you know and put it under her pillow she wasn't there and I knew when she found it that was nice. She understood that that was special. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Uhm, I'm trying to think if there is anything more about traveling. Yes. Uhm It has to do with being an adolescent. There, you just have this tremendous urge to get away the more attached you are to your parents the more strongly the urge to get away is. At least that was the way in my case. I remember going to a party and coming back at like two or three o'clock they’re up so why didn't you call? You know its like, its like well I didn't think anything of it, you know you're a kid you say you know this is what kids do. Of course, you know, they were right, but I had that experience of staying out. You know um. 

Q. If there was one thing you would want sighted pedestrians to be able to do better by you what would it be?

A. Uhm. I think it’s a little complicated I think it would be to let people who are blind to make harmless mistakes. If you're walking out in traffic that's one thing, but if you missed the door by 6 inches and you're not asking for help, wait and see what happens they'll find the door. You know? Uhm it, it annoys me sometimes when people just assume that I would rather not go through a revolving door. When in fact the revolving door is a wonderful sound cue. You know and I'm allowed to wait 30 seconds till it slows down, you know. Just don't worry so much about the harmless mistakes. you know uh. I guess always just ask, you know do you need help 

Q. Right.

A. and don't grab. And just imagine what it feels like to be grabbed and the worst thing that people do is to lift up the end of the cane push that way (motions upwards). um and people do that. 

Q. Oh gosh.

A. Uhm they all mean well, uhm but see the, the other thing is I was never I never had a chance to explore with anyone my except you know when I went into therapy on my own my feelings about, how does if feel to be touched, and you know and how do you deal with it and how do maintain your own personal integrity.

Q. Right.

A. You know. and really it still is a struggle for me. It still is, I am who I am regardless of what they do, you know, and the other thing that I think as well in another 15 seconds they are going to fade out of my life. So it’s not worth investing any energy. Uhm but it took me a long time to learn this stuff. Uhm it also took me a long time to learn that being late is not so terrible. Especially when the circumstances that are making you late are beyond your control. Uhm. Cause I've gotten into stressful travel situations when I tried to make it too fast. Uhm. I once was. But again, you know this is something that everybody learns. I once tried to make a circle line ferry that was leaving at a certain time. And I hit a uh sign or something and I had to go to what is that hospital down there, St. Claire’s, I think.

Q. Oh my. 

A. You know its like 7 1/2 hour to stitch me up.

Q. In your rushing to get to the ferry you ran into..

A. yeah exactly, exactly. 

Q. Aye, yi, yie.

A. I also know for a fact, for a real fact, that the more stressed I am or imbalanced, if I’m hungry. My ability to judge travel things is less. And if I know that then I watch out for it. But nobody ever told me that. Um. The most helpful thing that somebody once told me is something like for a blind person to take a subway is as hard as a sighted person driving a car. But see it’s not that it’s not doable, it’s that you have to make sure that you've got all your mental equipment with you. 

Q. Yes.

A. There was a uh incident in 1993. There was woman named Pam Sneider who was killed. She fell into the subway tracks. 

Q. She was blind?

A. Yeah, it was very hot day uh I heard that she had diabetes we don't know what really happened. I wasn't working for transit at that time. But it caused a tremendous amount of publicity and now that I’m in transit I see how, how terrible, I mean everybody felt terrible, but it made them look bad in some way. Uhm people have to know when they're getting near their limits. This is another thing that Peggy Gross talks about. Have an option when your limits are reached a place that you can stop. A hall. Uh carry an extra cane around. You're not superman. I mean nobody is superman. Uhm, uhm. and now I know my limits or I'm starting to. Um. And I you know I think when I’m old. What I want is to see when I, when I travel by myself, I have dignity. I'm independent. That's that’s a really key word is dignity. I get up, I go where I want to when I want to. If I forget something I go back. Um. I may pass somewhere and then go back to find it. You know and to me that's, that's Ok. Mistakes are really wonderful things. Uhm. I'm trying to think of the biggest mistake I ever made, but they were really bunches of little mistakes someone put me on the wrong train once, you know I survived. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Uhm, uhm. Sometimes like uh when I was in Israel. You just sort of did stuff. In other words like all the buses went through one station, you know in other words the way they had things set up is if you were going to take bus either within a city or to another city they all went through what's called the "takka americazine" the central bus station. So you could just sort of hang out there and ask people and eventually get told what to do. Uhm. 

Q. So it’s interesting then that there are times when people are doing it, sort of inappropriately assisting you. But then what you would do is you also you’re in that bus station are you then seeking people out. 

A. Yeah, I listen for people and I say excuse me or whatever. 

Q. And you’re then say able to take control over that situation. 

A. Right, I would never go see and I realize the value of these locators. because maybe in a small town where there's not many people  you need them. 

Q. Right, um. But. you know to this day I still on the block between my house and the subway there's Joseph's pharmacy and um a take out place, Radio Shack, there's a cleaner's and a flower shop and I know where they are sort of, but not always exactly so I'll go to as close to as I think I can get and then if I don't hear something that let's me know that I’m at that store I'll ask. You know and it doesn't bother me. And if there's no people I'll go into the wrong store. There's always uhm. At least when you live in a city there's always something you can look for. Um, once I was in Albany and I took a taxi to the synagogue. I get out and I’m waiting and nothing's going on.

A. right. 

Q. And a newspaper guy, a truck comes by so I wave my cane and he stops and he says oh this is the other synagogue. Its not the one that I wanted to go to. But it was much more well known. And then I mean that was the time that I did feel I wouldn't call it panic, but I was starting to get concerned. I was in Albany, there wasn't much traffic, it was cold. You know. Now there is probably a way around that which is don't let the driver leave until you know that somebody is there. But again, I think this is like the Queensboro bridge problem and that is, you can't ever assume anything, when you're too confident that's when you get in trouble. Oh yeah, he knows where the synagogue is so I'll just, he'll let me out by the door and I'll be fine. you know and sometimes it is a little embarrassing to have the driver you know pounding on the door and whatever but. I learned my lesson.

A. Well there's a balance obviously. 

Q. Yeah,

A. And you know I beat myself up a lot about things that I feel I could have done that better or I could have thought to ask that question, or you know so I think that's part of human nature is to strive or at least people like us who just want to be the best at what we do. I don't know that its everybody.

Q. Yeah. I feel like a kindred spirit with you that I obviously I wanting to do it right perfect the first time.

A. But I'm also I mean told you about the first-time syndrome. I know about it now. You know I know its not going to be perfect the first time. Um. See that 's the other thing. It really goes back to my parents, because they basically said. You know. Try it. See what happens see if you can improve. Uhm. Whereas in the travel area they did. And I don't know what parents go through that they come to conclusions. But I mean on the other hand my father said to me you know something like "you'll never be able to live alone independently" or it’s going to be very hard for you.

Q. Unless you do try it or just in general?

A. No, just in general. Like maybe you should consider something else. You know I mean I lived alone. I it was OK, you know, but it wasn't undoable. um and that's when you keep hearing this message that you can't then eventually you start to believe it an especially, I think the reason I went through anxiety with my kids and traveling is I must have somehow felt the anxiety my parents had especially when I was younger. But I know my mother, you know in 1992, there was this really bad storm, and my mother saw like floods and things in the city. And she was worried about me. you know. And mother's will never stop doing that.

Q. Nope.

A. Uhm.,  but you know I also do have a sense about being followed. In other words. um. you always, if somebody is a professional follower maybe not, but if it’s a mentally ill person then you know. you know 

Q. Yeah.

A. and you just go in somewhere. Its that's part of New York. Uh. 

Q. Have you ever had to do that?

A. Well, I've tended to sort of like walk a little faster or something to get away from certain people. you know, uhm. Its just part of everything in New York. Now that the elevators have Braille on them that's, that's an ADA thing, that's a good thing for ADA. 

Q. Yeah.

A. It really simple to do and it really helps. See to me the indoor signs are much more important than the outdoor signs. Because everything is uniform. You know you're not going to know what room 232 is just by coming in. 

Q. Right.

A. Uhm and there you know the signs really do help. Uhm what I'll often do in hotels see in hotels its another, its an interesting thing. You have to call someone to find out who to call to get the information you need. you know so usually you figure I'll call '0" you know somebody will pick up and then you get the desk number, you get the room service number, uhm you get whatever, you get everything. um, but that's. I guess, I guess that's sort of I don't know how, who taught me that pattern but basically when you're in a place that you don't know you start looking for information. Um, and you just sort of do it and you figure well how am I going to get this information? I like to, or here's another thing. see again, I, I don't see any logic in separating travel from other sort of related things. What happens when you lose something? How much do you look for it, where do you look for it? Obviously, it’s harder because you're blind, but you know sometimes, I mean I love it with my kids. My daughter uhm couldn't find her sneakers and was getting upset. This was a month ago or something so finally we convinced her, they were going for pizza, go out in your dressed up shoes. She wasn't happy but she went. Then I looked and I looked always the place where things are when they're lost is usually behind the bed that's always a good point it wasn't there. so, I'm look on the floor around the bed and I see them. sort of on the floor but behind the sheets, so somebody couldn't see them just by looking at the sheets and they didn't lift up the sheets. 

Q. Right.

A. So, I took 'em and I took 'em outside and I tied them on the door. And she came back and she said, you know where did you find 'em? and I said I think you left them at camp and they ran home. 

Q. (laugh).

A. you know it just, you know we have a place in our house that we call shoe city and that's where shoes go, and you know our kids know that's where things go. I mean I haven't done it too much, but I see nothing wrong with writing down where things are. Uhm. I think everybody has to have their own way of organizing in a certain way. Uh. I have my medicine above my desk. Its not in the bathroom in the medicine cabinet. I know exactly where it is. Because I don’t want it in the medicine cabinet where my kids are. I don't want it in the bedroom where it is going to make a lot of noise. 

Q. Right. 

A. You know people should have their choice making. You know it is really important. 

Q. This has been so generous with your time thank you.

A. Well if its helpful.

One can easily hold Mike up as a highly successful employed, married father of two – but there is no doubt the discussion of his travel is a very difficult one for him. He doesn’t like to be questioned too deeply on the meaning behind his memories. His narrative is he possessed free and open, and no holds barred travel encouraged by his parents that made him the successful traveler he is today, but an adult who stays put waiting for a guide is someone who has had too many bad experiences to risk independent travel. He is proof positive that the “no pain, no gain” upside down childrearing methods caused deep wounds. It would take hours and hours to unpack the harm perpetrated on a human being. 

Interviewed by:         Grace Ambrose

Interview date:          8/10/99

Transcription:            Grace 

Transcription Date:

Reviewed by:            Grace

Review date:             8/20/24