Growing up Blind Conversations with Dr. G
Host Dr. Grace Ambrose-Zaken, President and CEO Safe Toddles non-profit and inventor of the Pediatric Belt Cane for blind toddlers discusses why her mission is to make walking safer for toddlers with a mobility visual impairment or blindness. Listen to: Interviews with families, professionals, adults who grew up with a mobility visual impairment or blindness, and more. For more information about this blog contact: 845-244-6600, info@safetoddles.org
Growing up Blind Conversations with Dr. G
Audrey Born 1953 working mother who embraced wayfinding technology before it was cool!
Born in 1953, she got the full crazy treatment growing up blind. Yet, somehow she came through it all very well adjusted-a working wife and mother she has the same desires as anyone..
Her life is one lived just before the technology boom hit – before ride-share apps and other helpful smart phone tricks. Take a trip back with a very smart tour guide – growing up blind and living your best life in the latter half of the 20th century.
She was pushed to be a free-range child until she changed schools, and the rules changed. She wasn’t given a long cane, but she was told to always use a sighted guide and never take the stairs. One summer after 8th grade she got “a taste of using a long cane for the first time” but she wouldn’t be allowed to use a long cane until High School. The fascination is how we get away with this, still today. Blind children still made to feel like something is wrong with them – but it’s the substandard tools that is keeping them from truly being equal.
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Audrey 8/14/01
script
Born in 1953, she got the full crazy treatment growing up blind. Yet, somehow she came through it all very well adjusted-a working wife and mother she has the same desires as anyone..
Her life is one lived just before the technology boom hit – before ride-share apps and other helpful smart phone tricks. Take a trip back with a very smart tour guide – growing up blind and living your best life in the latter half of the 20th century.
final
[side A]
A. Audrey.
Q. And your date of birth.
A. 1953.
Q. OK. And where were you born?
A. Buffalo, New York.
Q. And where do you live now?
A. Uh, Mount Vernon, New York.
Q. OK. And what do you do for a living?
A. I teach at the Jewish Guild for the Blind. I work in an adult program for visually impaired persons. I am presently doing academic work, um, including Braille and keyboarding, um, adaptive technology, and other communication skills English as a second language, etc.
Q. And what’s your highest education?
A. I have a Master’s Degree in English as a second language.
Q. And how long have you had a vision impairment?
A. Since birth.
Q. And what’s the name of it?
A. ROP…Retinopathy of Prematurity.
Q. OK. Could you describe your functional vision.
A. None.
Q. OK. Um, when did you first realize that you were visually impaired?
A. I don’t know. Um…
Q. Were you born totally blind?
A. Yes.
Q. Uh huh. So…
A. Sometime, I’m sure, within the first couple of… You know, between… I bet the first two years…somewhere in there.
Q. Yeah. Um, but something that you feel you’ve always been conscious of.
A. Oh, sure.
Q. Yeah. When did you, uh, first learn to travel independent of another person?
A. Well, um, we did some independent travel in… You’re not talking in the house, no?
Q. Well, how do you define it?
A. Well, I’m thinking of, you know, I, I… Are we getting into cane travel or are we talking just in general as a kid, walking around without any assistance from anybody?
Q. So, would you say that’s how you did a lot of that, too?
A. I did that a lot when I was very small, um, in my nursery school.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Uh, which was at the Blind Association of Western New York. And, um, in, in, at, at school in kindergarten, even in… I was in a regular school…classroom environment in kindergarten and then I went to a, um, self-contained classroom at, um, also regular public bus… Um, bus to a public school but at that time, we used to walk all around the school without any assistance. I would go, um, second floor, third floor, you know, do errands, all kinds of things. Walk to the classes unaided. Um, we just learned by, uh, doing. Uh, we used the wall sometimes but often I knew just by walking the path that I’d done where the turns were in the halls. A lot of that was, I’m sure, facial vision that I used.
Q. Um hm.
A. Uh, finding the stairways, etc. And we did that very well, um, up through sixth grade at that school. Um, in junior high, when I changed schools, they didn’t allow anything like that. We weren’t even allowed to use, um, um… No, wait a minute. That was OK. Yeah, we could use stairs there. But, but, we had more…we had sighted guide assistance. Uh, no cane training still. No, no O&M at all. Um, um, then in eighth grade, and summer after my eighth grade, um, I took part, again, in a summer program from the Blind Association and we all received some mobility. Uh, we used a straight cane. I remember it had a, um, a flat… Um, the handle was flat at one end. Um, I don’t think it had…yes, it had a crook. It was a heavy cane.
Q. Um hm.
A. So, we did take mobility, uh, lessons and learned the arc and we did it quite a lot in that summer. We walked from one place to the other outdoors. Uh, unfortunately, that was not continued back at…in the fall. That didn’t continue in high school, so that was just kind of a taste of that. Um, the next cane… Uh, any cane experience I had after that was, um, my senior year of…um, between junior and senior, again, at another, another program in the summer…same kind of idea. Uh, but we had to work in, uh, in a, in a job experience and have jobs and all kinds of things, so, you know, we had, uh, very intensive mobility training and the person I worked with, uh, then continued with me through CBVH during, uh, my senior year of high school. She would meet with me once or twice a week after school and we did a lot of work together.
Q. Oh.
A. Um, uh, I know you’re not asking this question but I would just say that now when I see young children using canes…and I happened to see a little girl she looked about three using a cane…I think it’s fantastic and I’m sorry that they didn’t do anything like that with us at all at that time.
Q. So, in elementary school, how did you learn your way around? You said through experience…
A. Right.
Q. Do you think you were shown the way once or twice?
A. Oh, sure. I’m sure, more than once. And, and it wasn’t… And I didn’t have any fear. I would just walking around. It wasn’t until later on…
Q. What about in your own neighborhood?
A. No. I didn’t walk…I didn’t walk around outside unaided.
Q. OK.
A. Uh, maybe a tiny bit with my mom, I would walk next to her…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …um, a little bit, but not, not very far.
Q. And, then, what did you feel about this sighted guide and what was the relationship with the guides? How did they get chosen or did you choose them?
A. In, uh, in school environment, um, it was whoever wanted to give a hand in the class. That kind of a thing. Who would walk with me to the next class.
Q. Um hm.
A. The same when we were kids at a day camp. Um, uh, I remembered having, oh god, sighted help with the other children with my peers.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t ‘cause sometimes the kids, you know, they said they would help but then they didn't really want to, you know… That… I remember that very well.
Q. So, what would happen there?
A. Well, I, I just think there was some anger cause I remember one time the person came back and said, I forgot you. You know, we were in the, in the, in the restroom and, uh, you know, that was an awful feeling.
Q. So, did you feel like you knew your way around the junior high?
A. Um, oh, sure, and the high school also. You know what I did also, was, I used, I used a large cart to carry my textbooks around.
Q. Sure.
A. And, so, I would push that in front of me and that was a great guide, you know. [laugh]
Q. Yeah.
A. So, uh, as long as we, you know, there were no stairs, I, I was fine. But, you know, there wasn’t, there wasn’t…there weren’t things in the way.
Q. Right.
A. Um, but in high school, they didn’t want us using the stairs. None of the disabled students could use stairs. We all had to use the elevators. That was their rule. And I thought, isn’t that weird? When I was a kid I could take the stairs all the time and I felt… You know, a friend and I used just to sneak into the stairs, anyway.
Q. Yeah.
A. Cause just to say that we were there [laugh]
Q. [laugh] And did you voice this to your parents or to the school?
A. No, I don’t think I bothered with it really.
Q. Yeah. So, in, and, in junior high, were you traveling around your neighborhood at all?
A. Not yet. Not really until high school.
Q. Uh huh.
A. My junior year and summer, I remember my dad, at the time, Lions Clubs were still giving out little tiny, short canes…
Q. Oh.
A. …and my dad got one and he had said he’d seen people using canes and he tried to show me…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …how to, you know, as best as he could. And I remember quite a few times walking with him in the neighborhood and I would…
Q. Yeah.
A. sort of tap the cane but, of course, it wasn’t, it wasn’t done the correct way, but it was done very…in a, in a good spirit.
Q. Yeah.
A. And then when I started that summer, then I, uh, I started to learn how to use the cane. By my senior year in high school, I did take walks around the block, and I had a hard time understanding the block and how it worked and how you could start one way and end up going around a square and back where you started from. You know that, that was a hard concept for me to understand.
Q. How did you finally get it?
A. Well, by doing it over and over and then we used a, uh, the instructor used a board, uh, you know, a board with, with the, with the block on it.
Q. Neat.
A. And we would do the streets, you know, over and over again.
Q. Neat. So, by combining the board…
A. Um hm.
Q. …which was, what? You did that indoors?
A. Yeah, like… It was, like, a spongy kind of board.
Q. And you’d sort of trace your finger around it? And with the names of the streets, or…
A. Yeah.
Q. Neat. And then, by doing it, it sort of clicked one day.
A. Right.
Q. Yeah, neat. Um, I wonder when you got that short cane, did you start using it every day?
A. No, I just used it now and then with my dad. That was it.
Q. And then, what…you’d put it in the corner?
A. Yeah. But then I started… Once I learned how to use the regular cane, I did, you know, I really felt happy going out on my own and going to the supermarket or for a slice of pizza. I thought that was such a big deal.
Q. Oh.
A. And, I didn’t cross… One street was very busy, but any street at that time I would take sighted guide across. Which that’s what this person had taught us at that time.
Q. Yeah.
A. To use sighted guide.
Q. Yeah.
A. Um, interesting… She taught us to use the center…to stay in the center of the sidewalk.
Q. Yeah.
A. Which was fine but when I went to a pre-college program, I think at the time they had… CBVH sponsored us to go to Syracuse University, uh, for a six-week program…summer program. Excuse me (sneeze)—sorry. And, um, the person there did mobility and her method was different. We had to use the, uh, edges of the, uh, grass line and she called that the shoreline.
Q. Yeah.
A. So, it was a little bit different technique then.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Um, what else ________…
Q. So, what I’m curious… You said that, then, after the eighth grade…
A. Um hm.
Q. …that was, like, a summer…couple of months…
A. Right, and we had a little introduction to the cane but then nothing was followed up…
Q. So, they gave you a cane at that time.
A. No. Just during the program.
Q. So…
A. You didn’t get to take it home.
Q. You didn’t get to take it home.
A. No.
Q. So, was it… So, you’re talking about when you finally did get a cane was in your senior year…
A. Of high school.
Q. So, between the eighth grade and the senior year, were you feeling more like going out? Did you feel more restricted? Did you, with that taste, want…
A. I didn’t think about it too much. I guess I was so wrapped up in my other stuff, I didn’t think too much about, about it. I think that really happened in college time.
Q. Yes. So, now, how did you learn your way to the store, like you talked about going to the pizza place with your cane.
A. Yeah, well, that was after…after senior year of high school. And that’s when, you know, she… That was one of the routes she showed me.
Q. Oh, the mobility instructor.
A. Right. She showed me the specific route.
Q. Neat.
A. Yeah.
Q. That sounds like a fun one.
A. It was, and then, when I went to college, I took the, uh… When I would take the bus, well, then, you know, I, I, I could do that on my own and at college I used my cane all the time to go from building to building.
Q. Nice.
A. I remember the tricks that the kids would do, you know, how they would grab the other end of the cane [laugh] and start saying, come on, you know. But, but most of the students were OK about the cane. They didn’t, you know, they were very helpful and I did use sighted guide also. I, I never refrained from sighted guide if I really need it, you know, even now.
Q. When is that?
A. When do I need it?
Q. Yeah.
A. If I’m in an unsure situation. If I’m not sure of a street crossing…even with the dog. If you’re not sure, you’re not sure. You know, with some of the lights that are…the, the cars not, uh, um, obeying the laws and turning and, uh, sometimes if I’m not sure of the situation, if I don’t feel safe, I’ll just take an arm and put my dog at heel or if I have my cane, I might just, you know, let my cane rest. Usually, if I, if I do use a cane, my dog was hurt last year for a few weeks and I, I used my cane to go, to go to Manhattan every day and I hadn’t used the cane in…seriously, in 25 years…
Q. Wow.
A. You know, you never forget that. It’s just there.
Q. Oh.
A. And I love the rolling tip, and I just got right back into it and I used it. But I would take more sighted guide assistance getting to the subways and crossing the streets ‘cause I know I don’t always cross straight. You know, I know in my mind what straight is, but I do veer when I use a cane, when I cross the street and I know that.
Q. Um hm.
A. And, uh, so, so, so in those kinds of situations, I’ll, for, for expediency’s sake, I will, I will ask someone if I can take their arm and just go across.
Q. Neat. So, um, I was wondering… Do you have any childhood memories of, uh, riding bikes or…
A. Oh, yes. There’s one thing my mom did… My mother, unfortunately, died when I was very small… I was five… But I have a little bit of a memory of her… When I was younger than that, obviously, uh, um, she used to take us to…my brother and I…to the park and they would, and on the days that they would clean the pool, the wading pool, uh, all the kids would ride their bikes in the pool.
Q. Oh.
A. And it was so fun because I had a ton of space to just ride this trike around, or whatever, you know, and she, she was there, nearby, but it was giving me some freedom…
Q. Neat.
A. …to ride and I just loved it. And I… And sometimes I would bump into the sides and that would, um, not be fun, but, I mean, that wasn’t often and, um, I just remember riding and riding and riding.
Q. Neat.
A. That’s one thing that, if I could do, I would just go and go on a bicycle now. [laugh]
Q. Yeah.
A. If I could see, I’d go do that. Um, I sometimes go now on tandem and that’s fine, but, again, it’s always getting another person to do that and, uh, so that's, you know, that happens sometimes, but…
Q. Is a stationary bike just not the same?
A. No.
Q. Yeah.
A. [laugh] It’s like using a NordicTrak instead of cross-country skiing.
Q. Yeah.
A. You know, um…
Q. none of the benefits of being out there…
A. You know, you’re missing… I mean, it’s OK, but, no, it’s not… Even with all the virtual stuff, you know, it’s not the same thing. But, um…
Q. Oh, I wasn’t aware of all the virtual stuff. [laugh]
A. I think there’s some stuff coming out that’ll make you think you’re going somewhere.
Q. [laugh] A little fan and, uh [laugh]
A. [laugh]
Q. Birds singing. OK.
A. Bik thing is the one, is a wonderful memory. Um, yeah…
Q. Yeah. So, uh, what did you think about those O&M instructors? What kind… What was the method that they used?
A. Well, um, most… Um, one from eighth grade is pretty vague. I just remember her name was, uh, Miss Mills. I just remember walking and hearing the… I remember the sounds of the tip on the sidewalk, and I remember her pointing out different sounds and that was really helpful. And I remember her showing the arc. I don’t remember a whole lot more than that.
Q. What are the different sounds?
A. Different… You know, if, if, if the tip, if it’s an echo-y sound, you know, if the sidewalk is a tar-based sound or, and, depending on the sidewalk, if it’s rough…
Q. Nice.
A. We were doing textures… And the, um, the second instructor carried those things out, also, and, um, you know, we learned stair techniques and I remember, um, uh, what else did I do… Um, I think they were just the basics. I don’t know how, how much the, the instructor had studied at the time. I know there was a discrepancy of who went to for a master's in college and who, who didn’t. That was in the ‘70s…early ‘70s.
Q. Uh huh.
A. You'd hear a lot of people in agencies talk, you know, saying that someone was just trained in an agency and someone else had, uh, actual Master’s from college so.
Q. Were you aware of which instructors you had?
A. Um, yes. I know that the person I had was not trained in college.
Q. Uh huh.
A. She was not. Um…
Q. And how would you rate her?
A. Um, well, I think she taught me good techniques.
Q. Yeah.
A. Yeah. And, um, she also helped me with some makeup, which wasn’t a part of her, you know, thing to do, but she just did that as a, as a caring gesture. I thought that was nice.
Q. Oh, really.
A. Yeah.
Q. What, to start using it, or…
A. Yeah, um hm.
Q. Neat. So, uh, what sorts of… Where would you go? I mean, if you went to the pizza place with her…
A. Yeah, we would take bus trips and, um, I think we went to a couple of stores and, again, this was CBVH-sponsored, and I think it was only once a week so I don’t… You know, if was after school.
Q. Uh huh.
A. So, it wasn't really long she was maybe there an hour or, um…
Q. So, you really did skills.
A. Yes.
Q. More than going places.
A. And she did help me at college a little bit. I don’t remember her helping me too much.
Q. Right.
A. But a little bit.
Q. How’d you learn your way around campus?
A. We… It was a very small campus. There were only, like, four buildings.
Q. [laugh]
A. If I got lost, I’d ask someone, uh…
Q. Neat.
A. Yeah, she must have given me a hand for, maybe, the first semester, especially.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I have a feeling… I’m sure she did that for me, now that I think about it.
Q. Did you ever do a solo route, where the purpose was she wouldn’t be with you but you would do a route and come back and tell her about it.
A. No.
Q. No.
A. Not that I can remember. But that’s a good idea.
Q. You think…?
A. Yeah, I think so.
Q. Why?
A. ‘Cause I think it gives you extra… It gives a person extra confidence.
Q. Yeah.
A. They’ve done it a while.
Q. Yeah.
A. And, you know, you could do it and come back.
Q. What would you have liked to have done more of or differently, do you think?
A. Well, I would have liked training early on, like…
Q. Yes.
A. …they get now. I mean, I saw one, when I used to work at Lavelle quite a few years ago, one of the, uh, instructors would go with the tiny little ones, and they had the little canes and she had sighted guide… She had them take her wrist, and I thought that was really clever thing. I don’t know if that was a, if that a, if that was taught, you know, uh, set in stone kind of a thing but I thought that was very nice for the little ones to be able to do that.
Q. Yeah.
A. Um, and to see the kids with their canes, it was, it was really great to have them really use their canes going from class to class and not making a big deal about it. I think, um… But, I think, from my generation, at least we did start in high school. I know the generation before mine, see, my parents’ generation, people who went to, uh, the New York City School for the Blind [in Batavia?] for example, they didn’t have cane training even, I think, up through high school. They would just go all over everywhere without any assistance. So, I find that… So, I suppose they were coming around to it slowly.
Q. Yes.
A. But I remember my friends…my older friends telling me that they would do that. They would go into town and just walk around. And I even have a friend to this day who still…and I cringe when I think about it…He will go; he's a professor and, and, and he’s, of course, intelligent, but he will not use any cane. He will use nothing. He just walks. Even to get to the bus, I always said, aren’t you afraid you’ll be hurt. And he says, no. Uh, but there are so many dangers…I’m just thinking of holes that you can fall in…and that’s only one thing… There’s construction, you, you… There are so many obstacles. So, I think that things are happening slowly and, again, he wasn’t ever taught, probably, so he… Or maybe he was too lazy and didn’t want to bother with it. I don’t know. I, I don’t want to speak for him, but I’m just kind of looking and comparing the generations here and, so, it’s really progressed. I’m glad I got what I did.
Q. Describe the difference for me in what it was like for you to travel before you got the cane and after.
A. Well, when I was a kid, actually, I didn’t have the fear see, so that was OK. I could zip around the school and go up to the three flights and, and deliver, um, messages and, and papers and whatever. And there was no fear of the stairs either, ‘cause I seemed to intuitively to know where they were. It wasn’t until later on when I was told, no, we can’t do this, and we can’t… I developed a… And it’s good to have a healthy respect for stairs and all those things. So, I believe that that kind of made me slow down. And when I do…did use the cane and to this day when I use it… I’m very cautious. I’m, I’m, uh, I don’t just, you know, go really, really fast. I take my time. Um, so, even though the cane had that freeing ability, I think it’s because, at the same time, it was also…when I was studying the cane, I was also in an environment that said, no, you can’t do this and you can’t do that and be so careful, that that was done over…that was an overkill on that.
Q. Yeah.
A. They were trying to be overprotective; I think.
Q. Yeah.
A. So, that that kind of had the reverse effect. You know, where I could have felt more free, I was more hesitant in some ways.
Q. Yeah.
A. If that makes any sense.
Q. That is interesting.
A. Yeah.
Q. How many different types of mobility tools have you tried?
A. Uh, cane and my dog and, uh, that’s it. I haven’t tried anything else.
Q. And, so, currently, now, you use the dog guide.
A. Yes.
Q. Neat. Um, how long have you used dog guides?
A. Since 1975, just out of college.
Q. And what made you decide to go and get one?
A. I, I knew other people with dogs. I saw how they worked. I saw that they traveled well and, and quickly, and I wanted to try it.
Q. Yeah. So, what school did you go to?
A. I went… I went to Seeing Eye for my first dog in Morristown. I went to Guiding Eyes, also. And, uh, I’ve gone to Fidelco.
Q. Oh, interesting. Any reason for changing?
A. Yeah. Well, Seeing Eye was excellent training. And I received excellent training everywhere. Um, but later on, I was married, and my husband’s dog was from Guiding Eyes--we did a lot of fundraising for Guiding Eyes, so I got to know the people there well.
Q. Yes.
A. And then when it was time to get a replacement dog, they had an opening, so I went there. And I still do connections… I still do help with fundraising, even though my current dog is from Fidelco.
Q. [laugh]
A. I chose Fidelco because I wanted a German shepherd in Manhattan and Fidelco works exclusively with shepherds.
Q. Yes.
A. Guiding Eyes is pretty much Labs. I like Labs but, for guide work, my preference, now, is a shepherd.
Q. Why is that?
A. I just like their work ethic, work ethic. I don’t know quite how to explain it, having used dogs a long time. You know, if I had to have a Lab again, OK, but I just… I like the way the shepherd works. I like the way they respond. I like their sense of routine. I just like so many things about them.
Q. Neat.
A. His presence and I like working with that…with a shepherd in a city environment. And I like the home training…that’s why I chose Fidelco because, if that had been around when my children were small, I would have done that because I hated to go away and leave my children.
Q. Yeah.
A. But now, um, although I recommend students to go, especially for the first time, I recommend if they go away to school. That’s really a good experience for them. I personally like home training because they…you’re working in your own neighborhood, right away.
Q. Yeah. So, what’s it like to transition between dogs?
A. Oh, it’s very hard.
Q. Yeah.
A. It’s, it’s very, very hard. [laugh] Uh, because, you know, no matter why the dog has to stop, whether it’s because of illness, arthritis, or I had a couple dogs that…just I had moved from the rural environment to the city environment and my dog became frightened of, uh, of cap guns and then subsequently firecrackers and, whatever... You know, it went on and on…to noises… No matter what the reason, um, and even, even one dog I only had four months from Fidelco, and she was not comfortable with children and I work with the kids and I just couldn’t use--I could never do that…
Q. Yeah.
A. …you know, ‘cause the poor dog was uneasy and the kids wanted to pet the dog, and I always had to relax the children and my dog in the work environment so that they’re comfortable… So, no matter what the reason or the length of time, you put so much time into that relationship to make it work…
Q. Yeah.
A. …and you’re working with the dog day and night, um, it’s very hard. I, I… It’s a hard, hard thing to let a dog go.
Q. Yeah.
A. But you have to do it and, um…
Q. Sure.
A. I think it’s one of the hardest things I’ve done.
Q. Um, how many canes do you own?
A. I have one. I should have two, but I have one.
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Well, because if one breaks… [laugh]
Q. Uh, do you still use it off and on…
A. Now and then.
Q. For what?
A. Um, I, I use it… I use a cane if I go out with my kids or go out without my dog for, for a short time. I have it… I may not use it as a, um, using it to find my way, but, if I’m going sighted guide with my kids, I like to have the cane so that the kids don’t have to…you know, wouldn’t have to feel always that they’d have to tell me about every step or everything. I use it to cover myself, um, so, I’ve done that for a long time. When my dog was hurt last year, I was, like, a kind of born-again person, saying, oh, my gosh. Everybody should use the cane…which I knew, you know, because, of course, your dog could be sick or this or that could happen… And people had always said that to me for years. And I said, um hm, and I didn’t because it… I, I feel much more comfortable and, and enjoy a dog more than I enjoy a cane. But, nevertheless, um, I really developed a health respect for my cane last year, where before, I would, like… Before last year, after not using it for quite some time, except for those, you know, small emergencies or going out as I said with family members to do something and my dog couldn’t come… Um, last year, I really used it very seriously and I remember making myself take a walk even around the block and I didn’t… You know, I was missing my dog so, but I made myself go with the cane and I made myself do things outside of work and I would do it again if I had to, because I’m that kind of person. I, I will not stay indoors. I mean, you can only pout for so long, you know.
Q. Yeah.
A. Then [laugh], you know, if you don’t want people to feel sorry… If I… I don’t want people to feel sorry for me because my dog was, was ill, um, then I’d better not feel sorry for me, either. So, I, I was kind of like a born-again person, saying, wow, everybody should get in there and use a cane. In fact, I thought of writing an article with a colleague about that and we still have…are talking about it because it’s so important to encourage people who do have dogs to, uh, to use their canes and keep up the skills, although, I will brag and say that I didn’t… I feel I didn’t forget my skills. I had a little bit of a brush-up… Uh, somebody at the Guild… Uh, a mobility instructor, gave me a hand and, you know, showed me some landmarks to, to be able to find my way into the building more quickly, uh, because with the dog, we’d just do it without, uh, having to do that ‘cause that, those, those steps…finding, you know, cement walk and all that kind of thing. But, once I did that, uh, and though I took more help, I would, I felt… And it took me, again, longer to get where I need to go, but you just kind of know that that’s a given and you build that into your schedule.
Q. Right.
A. And, um, so, I have a very healthy respect for my cane now. Um…
Q. What does that mean, exactly?
A. That means, like, three years ago, I would say, ugh, you know, I really don’t like using my cane, you know. I would always, of course, encourage other people to use theirs, but I just didn’t enjoy it. But now, it’s, it’s a whole different attitude of, uh, of, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s important and it’s not, you know… I’d never say that one method is better than another method. It’s just two completely different methods and if it’s… It’s a preference…it’s an individual preference…
Q. Is it sometimes nice to know a little more detail, like, what the cane allows you to contact?
A. Yeah. It, it… I did become more aware of, um, certain… Even as I say, I’ll take the sound of the sidewalk again. Uh, things like that, yes. That, that is fine, and it is very good to know.
Q. Uh huh. It’s not something, you know…
A. No.
Q. …obsess on or anything.
A. No, but what I really like is that I knew it was still in my mind that I could use the cane.
Q. Yeah.
A. I didn’t forget it and, especially, as I said, I like the rolling tip and, boy, I just love that thing.
Q. What do you like about it?
A. Well, OK, one thing it does… You don’t always pick up the sounds as you do when you’re tapping with a tip, uh, so, you don’t hear the sidewalk changes, but you do get a different… I think of roller skate kind of noise, you know, and, so you can pick up different textures quickly…if it’s a rough or smooth texture, if that’s ahead of you. And, um, I like to be able to move the cane in the arc without picking it up.
Q. Yeah.
A. And sliding it forward and backward, um…
Q. Yeah.
A. Yeah. I just like that a lot and, uh, that was… I think that’s a revolutionary thing that that’s happened.
Q. Where did you buy your cane from?
A. Um…
Q. Where did you get it?
A. Let me think where I got this one. Um, it’s the Mahler cane. I think it’s from MaxiAid.
Q. Uh huh. What kind is it? What’s it look like?
A. It’s a collapsible cane in four sections. Cane with the uhh-- it has the bicycle handle. I used to like that one. That was… Was that a Hycore Remember, years ago, they had, uh, the handle was an actual handlebar of a bicycle… No, that was…
Q. Well, the grip was…yeah…
A. I liked that better than the grip that I have now. But this is OK.
Q. Why is that?
A. I don’t know. [laugh]
Q. You just liked the feel of it…
A. …the feel of that cane, yeah.
Q. Neat.
A. But I… What I have now, I, um, a four-section, um… It’s the one… It’s the most popular one. I know there are lots of lots of canes out there now… California canes… And, um, you know, Ann Morrison, Maxi Aids, the Lighthouse sold pretty much a lot of the same canes. And the NFB with you know, the straight canes. I like the collapsible one, myself. Although… This is going to sound funny, maybe, and I don’t even know why… You… What, what worth this will be to you, but I’ll tell it anyway… I like collapsible canes so that, when I’m somewhere, I’ll fold it up. But at home, my cane is in the corner right by the door, standing up.
Q. You don’t fold it up at home.
A. At home…and I guess it’s because when I had a straight cane, I got into that habit of always keeping my cane ready to go.
Q. Uh huh.
A. So, even though it’s a collapsible, it’s standing up straight in my house. So that’s just…
Q. Is that at work, too, or…
A. No. Oh, yeah… Wait a minute, let me think. Yes, when I use my cane at work, I do the same thing.
Q. Neat. So, when do you collapse it?
A. Um, if I’m at a restaurant or something.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Um, or if I’m at the supermarket and I want to fold it up.
Q. So, it’s aluminum.
A. Uh, yes.
Q. Neat.
A. And I had… You know what I had also... I know you didn’t ask me this, but you can tell me not to tell you…
Q. [laugh]
A. …my evening cane. In the ‘70s, there were these silly little canes that ladies would carry, and we all thought we were so cool, with this little kind of collapsible cane… You pressed a button and it all kind of folded up. It was not worth much of course for, you know, I don’t it could last very long, but it was kind of like a little cane you could just take out of your purse, and it looked so dainty.
Q. Oh.
A. You know, I don’t think it would hold up long. It was kind of more for show, but they called it an evening cane.
Q. Nice.
A. I have no idea who makes it. Uh…
Q. Wouldn’t that be fun?
A. Yeah.
Q. I’ve never seen one of those. I know they have ones now that they call, um, identification canes, but they’re not like that…in that they don’t have a button and they‘re not very stylish.
A. Oh.
Q. But they’re very thin and lightweight. So, they might accomplish part of the [laugh] look.
A. Yeah.
Q. Um, how do you get to and from work?
A. Well, now, I take the, um, Metro North train to Manhattan to Grand Central. Then I transfer and take the shuttle train to Times Square and then I take the 1 or the 9 going uptown.
Q. Neat. Do you have any strategies for the Metro North Railroad?
A. Well, yeah. Metro North I've been riding for years and years and, uh, my platform is very accessible. Um, I mean, well, they’re always accessible but now they have, uh… The MTA has put down the, uh, warning strip at the edges of the platform…
Q. Oh.
A. …which I like. Um, we didn’t have them last year because my station is not a key station. Um, and, of course, ADA… They were only doing key stations, which, again, in my opinion, every station should be a key station.
Q. [laugh].
A. So this was a thing with Metro North that, last year, I had an accident. I fell off the platform…
Q. Mm.
A. …of the Metro North station. I came down the stairs like I’ve done for years, and I believe, but I cannot prove it, there was a garbage can or something in the way and that my dog tried to clear that and I fell off…
Q. Oh.
A. …of the platform, not onto the tracks, but into the dirt.
Q. Oh.
A. And I went to the hospital and all, you know, whole. That was last May. So, after that happened, I was trying to be extra cautious and I took a lot more sighted assistance to get on the train, but even in my being cautious, I had my dog close to me, but we were too close to the line and an express train went by and hit him in the face.
Q. Oh.
A. Yeah. So, that was a nightmare because…
Q. Oh, my gosh…
A. …I was trying so hard to prevent another accident and then my poor dog, who was…who loved trains and subways and who loved to look around for them… But, he, he’s such a great dog. He then, of course, had to get immediate emergency veterinary care and, um, we couldn’t get any help. The police took 45 minutes to come, which I couldn’t wait for them to come…
Q. Oh, my…
A. …uh, uh, a kind stranger, who, like, you know, just said, come, I have the same dog at home…meaning she likes German Shepherds…said, come on, let’s go. So, we ran to her car and my dog was bleeding and…
Q. Oh.
A. …we went to the vet and, uh, he was given very good care and came home in a couple days, and he was pretty spacey for a few days and I had planned to travel, anyway… It was the Fourth of July weekend, so I went--still did my traveling plans up to date and he would perk up for a little while but he was really spaced out for about ten days. It, it… He couldn’t even stand up hardly.
Q. Oh.
A. I wanted him to get up to, uh, to relieve himself. I just felt this was it for this dog, you know? but, when you think about it, the trauma… When I fell… Your body is traumatized. So, when he was thrown, even though it wasn’t very far he was knocked, then, of course, his body would be traumatized, as well. So, he went back to Fidelco for a re-evaluation and, uh, we… None of us at the school we didn’t think he would, would, uh, ever work again uh and I wouldn’t blame him if he never did. So, we were…that’s… We were preparing for… I don’t know, but I think that he must have remembered the accident because, once he came back, you know, they did all kinds of evaluations with him in other cities without me there so he wouldn’t have the stress of, of, um, me trying to, to please me, you know, with the work. And, so, then he came back and he actually he was fine. He would hesitate… If he would hesitate on my platform…and that’s the platform he would hesitate on, I would just get a lot of help just to get off and on the train. I mean, I would try to be on the platform as less as possible.
Q. Hm.
A. Well, not that, that, they’re, they have renovated the platform as of about two or three weeks ago… And it’s amazing because I can, I just, you know, I know the strips are there, I know where they start, I can get on the train and off and find the stairs and do the things I’ve always done, and I feel more comfortable and he has picked that up from me and he’s just doing it.
Q. Yeah.
A. Being confident and now and then, if he’s not, um, again, I’ll ask for help but mostly it’s a hundred percent better. Um, a couple places where the strips…even with the strips, it’s really narrow and he’s not sure, again… I want to check it out… I want to get professional people to see exactly what’s going on there. Um, with in that regard, but… So, the Metro North…that, that… My platform is fine now and the subways, you have to be real careful because some of them are marked and some are not. But, again, I know the route, I feel comfortable with it and, um, it’s going to, you know… Getting to the shuttle…that’s hard to find because… Not to find where the shuttle comes in, but once you’re downstairs, it can come in on one of four tracks.
Q. Right.
A. So, you don’t know where. So, for that, I’ll ask someone if they’re walking to the shuttle if I can just walk with them. And once I get off the shuttle, though, I know the route to get to the 1 and 9 and it’s very… Even though there’s a crowd, it’s, it’s fine.
Q. [laugh]
A. Um.
Q. That’s a bit of a walk, isn’t it?
A. Yeah.
Q. [laugh]
A. And there are stairs, but it’s…
Q. [laugh]
A. And there’s a [two] behind him, so, you know, it’s… I don’t mind that part of it. I try to go when it’s not rush hour time when I work and when I come home at night because it’s a lot more pleasant…
Q. How did you learn the, uh, route from the shuttle through the…to the1 and 9?
A. Um, I think by just doing it a whole bunch of times, you know, and then, walking with somebody a few times.
Q. Neat. Now, do you have to pattern the dog to learn that?
A. He knows that route. He, he… Some things, you know, you have to tell him what to do. Of course, most things, you know, how many of, much of the public thinks that the dog know all the stuff and we don’t know anything, but, you know, and, of course, you’ve probably seen that yourself. But he knows from the shuttle, that… He knows it.
Q. Yeah.
A. You knows that, that and, if I try to change the routine, uh, I have to argue with him because he’ll want to go. I’ll want to go a different way, and he will listen, but it takes some coaxing. We’re not going to the shuttle; we’re going to the exit today. I’m going somewhere else, you know. I’ve changed my whole routine. Once he sees that, he’s fine. But he can be… Because he’s a shepherd… That’s the downside of shepherd that they’re very stubborn and they get into a routine of a route…
Q. Neat. So, what I’m curious about is, um, is patterning…That’s a specific procedure, is it? Um…
A. Um.
Q. …no. I mean, how do you define it?
A. Let me think about that. Yeah, it’s… Sure. What I try to usually explain to the public is that, um, again, the public will think, oh, look at that…the dog knows where you want to go. And sometimes the dog does because, you… As I say, you do it every day and he’s conditioned to that because you do a route a couple of times… I remember the second day I worked at the Guild, Jewish Guild. He went right for the door because once we crossed the street, he remembers that. He knows, OK, this is where the new office is…this is where his space is and so he kind of gets into the conditioning of it. Um, so, that can happen. But what I always try to explain to the public is that… They assume that, oh, look at that. The dog knows where she’s going. And I’m saying, well, to a degree, but I always would really point out to the people that I’m the one telling him left and right and straight and forward. I have to know and, of course, if I don’t know the route, then I ask someone. But, you know, people, still, after so many years of, uh, working with dogs, um, people…most people still don’t really get it. They kinda think, oh, the dog is this amazing. And the dogs are very smart, but they think the dog is the really intelligent, wonderful creature that does all this great stuff for a blind person and that the blind person doesn’t know, you know… It’s, like, when I’m on the subway platform, and they say to me, do you know where you are? All these wonderful questions like that. Um, uh…
Q. [laugh]
A. …which get under my skin sometimes.
Q. What do you do?
A. Oh, it depends what kind of mood I’m in. [laugh]
Q. Yeah.
A. If I’m in a nice mood, I say, yes, I know where I’m at. Or, you know, sometimes if I’m in a cross mood, I may say something smart, you know, uh, smart meaning sarcastic.
Q. Un huh.
A. One thing, it’s just an aside, but I think is good for an article is, it’s very important to speak, when you’re speaking to the public, to really be clear because several… I’m waiting for the 1 and it’s so noisy that sometimes I don’t know if the 1 is here…if, it it’s there, you know what I mean?
Q. Sure.
A. Sometimes I don’t hear the door opening. So, I’ll say, is the 1 here? And people will say, yes. So, I’ll think, oh, good, it’s time to get on but what they’re saying is this is where the 1 is…this is the place. The 1 isn’t here now. So, I have rephrased my question to is the 1 here now?
Q. Yeah.
A. But [laugh] it’s a trial-and-error thing you have to really… Because it's such a-- why don’t they understand what I’m saying, but then I think of it from their perspective…the same question can be interpreted in two ways.
Q. Sure. Well, I guess I’m not the general public and I do know there’s a procedure called patterning and I’m just curious… It sounds like what you do is, um, get… You know… You get assistance, sighted assistance or sighted guide or something the first time through that route…
A. Yes. Or…
Q. How do you arrange that?
A. Or if, um, well, if… Usually, I’ll ask, just ask someone…
Q. Uh huh.
A. …who’s, who’s there because…
Q. A stranger.
A. …yeah, because with all those thousands of people, there’s got to be someone going that way. You know, that’s how its looked at it.
Q. So, what you did to go to the Jewish Guild the first time was…
A. The first time… Let’s see. I went on the interview. I got directions…
Q. From…
A. …from, um, oh, my goodness… Probably from, uh, when I went for an interview. Probably from Jane Lewis, you know, who was one of the people interviewing me.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Somebody who works there already.
Q. Right.
A. Uh…
Q. And, so, she told you to take the shuttle…
A. Right, or I think I took the104 at that time I was taking the bus.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And maybe I called the bus company. I don’t even remember. But, I mean, those are things I would do. Uh, I used to use the 104 instead of the subways, ‘cause the 104 is a lot less stressful. However, it takes about three times as long in the morning and I just don’t have… I don’t want to take that long to get to work.
Q. Right.
A. Uh, it takes 45 minutes. I can walk faster [laugh] than that.
Q. [laugh] Right.
A. I have walked it, also. I’ve walked from, uh, Grand Central to Broadway, to W56th… I like doing that.
Q. Oh, sure.
A. Oh, it’s fine. You can do a nice, quick walk. It takes maybe 20 minutes longer than the subway but… So, if I ask someone sometimes or you know call the MTA or call the bus company, oh, I’ll often write directions down. So, say I got off the bus and I’m not sure exactly where the Guild is, I’ll ask. And I’ll just say, you know, if I cross Columbus, where is Jewish Guild for the Blind?
Q. Uh huh.
A. And someone usually, someone would show me. Um, and I think that happened a couple times, but after, maybe, twice, then I would know what to do. And I would know how to direct my dog. It was also… It was a combination of me and my dog because I would tell him where to go but he also kind of got the whole idea, yeah, I know where we’re going now. So, it’s a combination of both of us together.
Q. Neat.
A. Yeah.
Q. Um, any strategies for the bus?
A. Um, on finding the bus?
Q. Sure, yeah.
A. Well, again, I ask people because I think it’s hard to find a bus.
Q. Uh huh.
A. I think it’s awful. [laugh] I hate looking for them and not knowing exactly if someone says, you know, it’s down the block a ways. Well, if I go a ways, I’ll listen for people to hear if anyone’s in a shelter or just talking together, and I’ll say is this a bus stop? And often, of course, in New York, you have to be careful because there are many bus stops. This could be the wrong-- It maybe isn’t in a regular bus stop…it could be a bus stop for an express bus, for example. But that's not the same as the regular, uh, metro, uh, the Transit Authority bus.
Q. Sure.
A. Ah, but once I know where the bus stop is, again, that’s not a problem. It’s not a problem getting off and on the buses.
Q. So, once you know where it is, do you like, pattern, the dog or is it, it’s not as official or as formal as that?
A. It’s not really official, no, because…
Q. It’s not, like, you say, find the stop, or…
A. No, I don’t say find the…
Q. [laugh]
A. …I say the find command now and then for, let me see… Not office it was one that we were taught but it wasn’t one that I’ve used over the past 25 years. It’s kind of newer one. Um…
Q. So, it’s really just a combination of…
A. Me again that's being alert and knowing where I am and what my turnings are and what street I've crossed. You know, making my mental notes…
Q. Sure.
A. …OK, I’ve cross Columbus. The traffic… I always have to do this. Traffic is on my left, that means the building is here. I have to really talk to myself in my mind to remind myself of what…where…what I’m listening for and what I’m looking for.
Q. Yes.
A. And then the dog also certainly helps a lot. So, again, I would say definitely a combination.
Q. Neat. Have you, uh, any strategies for taxis?
A. I always ask somebody to help me get one in New York City.
Q. To hail one.
[side B]
Q. …one. What about, um, staying oriented in a taxi, or, um, paying or, um, worrying about any of those things?
A. Um, I never think about all that stuff. I just, I know when… You know, when the door’s open, I find the door, I know it’s the back, I get inside…I get the dog inside. Um, I might look for a seatbelt… It’s not a big deal to get in and out of a taxi.
Q. Sure.
A. And then, pay the driver. I know, you know, where he is, or she and I know they usually have the shield up there in the front. Um, there’s no problem with that.
Q. Yeah. I wonder if you have ever been refused a ride.
A. Oh, tons of times.
Q. What do you do?
A. Well, once I was going to turn somebody in from Queens to the TLC. I'd gotten the license plate, but I didn’t. Um, I certainly could another time… I know people who have. But I um, I try to get license plates…usually I’m not in a position where I can get the license plate…
Q. Yeah.
A. …number. So, it hasn’t happened. But it has happened and I’m working, even though I individually haven’t turned anyone in, I have worked very closely with, um, the guide dog users and, um, other organizations in New York to get the fine up from…what, it was 200 and now it’s up to 500 dollars.
Q. Oh.
A. Which is a step, you know.
Q. Sure.
A. Cab drivers weren't caring if they got a 200 hundred dollar-- if they got a fined. Uh…
Q. Right.
A. …so, so, it is better now. Now they have the signage in Braille, which is fine except that in the beginning I thought, well, what good is the sign in Braille if they won't let--
Q. They won’t let you in. [laugh]
A. Right. But, at least, you know, they’re, they’re… And the cab hey did you see, could read that sign and any complaints?… Is everything OK? You know, when, when, um, all this first, uh, was passed. But now, most, most… It’s a lot better in New York, I think, than it was five, or five to ten years ago. It's not perfect. And in Westchester where I lived, it is not very good at all…in Mount Vernon. And, and I’ve been… I remember when my daughter was a little girl and had an ear infection and I couldn’t get her to the doctor because the cab drove away and she was crying, crying, and I had to wait for another cab. And then, still in Mount Vernon, you, you, uh, it, it’s there has to be so much more done. I think a lot more is being done in parts of Westchester. Now, I have friends who are working on the Transit Committee. I have different groups in Westchester and New York City and they’re working very closely with the, um, [officer's day unit]. You know, there’s a whole bunch of people now working more than, say, ten years ago. But in Mount Vernon, they, they, they’ve got a lot to do still. They, they’re… Pretty much, three companies are owned by one, uh, by one big company and, uh…
Q. Right.
A. …it’s a hassle sometimes.
Q. So, the taxi driver would not take you and your dog and your daughter.
A. Right. That’s right. And, and we wrote letters. But there’s nothing… They don’t have the same rules that they apply in Manhattan, about fines and all that. So, a lot has to be done here.
Q. Right. Um, I wonder have you ever been disoriented?
A. Oh, uh, you mean in a cab or street?
Q. Yeah.
A. Um, yes, sometimes. It’s, it’s… If the crossing is tricky, I could be facing a little bit off and then I’ll realize it because of by the way people are walking. Or, um, if I’m… If I am not quite straight, instead… Of course, the dog isn’t going straight. He’s going straight to the way I’m facing. But's that because we need to veer more to the left when we’re crossing, for example.
Q. Uh huh.
A. For example, to the right. And I hear the cars and say, well, we’d better go to the left more. So, that’s not really disorienting…maybe that’s momentarily disorientating.
Q. Sure.
A. Um…
Q. so
A. I’m just trying to think of any big OK… A big-time disorientation. I don’t remember any.
Q. Neat. Um, how do you feel about traveling alone to unfamiliar places?
A. It doesn't bother me. I go to Boston. I go to lots of cities for weekends by myself and, um, when I have the money. [laugh] Um, and, and, uh, you know, to concerts or different things that I like to do… to Montreal… I… It’s fine. I ask people about the subway system about different things. Um, and, when I connect with friends, part of the time, that’s fine. Um, but I’ve done a lot of things on my own in hotels and restaurants and I just ask, where is… Where is a good restaurant? Where is, you know…
Q. Who do you ask?
A. I... The people at the hotel, for example.
Q. Uh huh.
A. Or, this summer, I was in Virginia and I, I um, I was with friends part of the time, but we were all doing our own, you know, thing during the day. In the evening, we were going to a…I, uh… A concert…sorry… And, uh, so, I decided I would go and do a tour, and I just asked the hotel. I called places and they said they had bus and boat tours, and I took a cab to the place. And then I asked, and they said it was about an hour and a half later, so I started to walk around. There was a park and so I walked, and I listened to people. And people were taking a walk and I then I just asked them, is this a park? What is this? And they said, oh, yeah, this is… We’re taking a walk. So, I said, do you mind if I walk with you? I mean, you know, and they could say no but they said, fine, and we had lunch together. And we had this really nice time. There were about four or five of us and then they said, we’re going on a cruise, do you want to come and so I said, sure. So, uh, I spent, uh, the rest of the day with them and, uh, then when it was time to leave, it was very ironic… This is the funny part of the story. Um, later on, on the cruise, um, you know, like, the Circle cruise, like that, you know…
Q. Uh huh.
A. So, later on, I ended up seeing three friends of mine who had also come to Virginia you know there were three guys and, so, we started talking and, so, they were going back toward the hotel so they said they would give me a ride. So, I told this very nice lady with whom I had, you know… We had gone on this tour…on the cruise together… I said, I’m going to be, uh, all right getting home, and, you know, thank you very much for your help and all that. I’m going to be with, uh, these friends of mine. Well, she thought I was just picking up some guys, you know…
Q. [laugh]
A. …and she was so worried about me [laugh] and I said, I wouldn’t do that. I’m not just going to take off with strangers. But she was all so, you know, flustered that I would do this.
Q. Or you were being duped by these…
A. I said, I know these… I know who they are. So, and they dropped me at the hotel, and it was fine. But, so, it’s a combination of, you know, when you’re with friends and when you’re with sighted friends and you kind of get together in different parts of the country and, you know, we, when, uh, um… The situation that, you know, everybody’s doing now…and thing so you’re not… You don’t want to be too dependent on people, but I will accept some help. But I don’t want to feel that people, kind of, have to include me in something when they…when people are, kind of, doing things that they’re interested in.
Q. Yeah.
A. I always feel happy because, I said, I’m not going to sit around in this hotel all day. And I did that, also, when I went skiing Ski for Light even though that was pretty much geared for blind people, you know, um, there’s the pool, there’s different things to do and I just feel very happy that I can figure out where things are. I, I may not be able to reverse it back…that might sound strange, but… And there’s been all these studies on ROP and having to do with that and, um, I have to really, again… I mentioned before, put it in my mind and remind myself of what’s where. Where the noise of the pool was so that when I come out, I’ll reverse that. Um, that has to be a very conscious serious thing that I do. And it’s very important and I think it’s a good awareness thing and I think, even though some people might think of that as a hindrance, I think that can be a help, because I could teach other people also and I could become more aware as I’m doing these things, I could be more aware of what’s around.
Q. Well, it sounds like you get a lot of verbal directions from people.
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me, give me examples…good directions, bad directions…
A. Well, you know bad directions… You know, over there and this way and that way. Um…
Q. How do you… What do you do about them?
A. I, well, again, if I’m in a really nice mood, I’ll say, would you explain left, or right? If I’m in a cranky mood, I’ll say, over there doesn’t help me. And can you say [laugh] you know, or this way doesn’t help me. Could you please be more specific? But a lot of times, it puts people on the spot. People don’t know, themselves, their left from their right. So, they don’t know. They have no idea. They have to really think about it. They say, oh, right…oh, I mean left. And, um, or I’ll say to them, no, no, that’s your right, you know. And I’ll… I don’t do it in a condescending manner. I’ll just say casually, you mean left. They say, yeah, I do. I’m so sorry. Um, but, so, I let people know that I appreciate any help they give me. Um, it… Whether it’s directions or if it’s, you know, the crowd is really, really, really, really strong and I’ll take a hand getting to, I don’t know, the turnstile or whatever, you know, to give you another example. Um, uh, and I let people know that I really do appreciate any direction.
Q. Yes.
A. It is important because people remember and people know if they might tell you quickly if they were snubbed by a blind person, you know. Um, I, I think… I, I do tell people when they give me too much help, I, um, again, stop me if I’m going off on a tangent, but this is a good example. I remember many years ago when my children were small, we did grocery shopping.
Q. Uh huh.
A. And, uh, they helped and we, we did a lot of it and, uh, I had a cart, and I was pulling the cart the behind me. That’s how I use the dog and pull the shopping cart behind me.
Q. Oh.
A. And someone… Oh, yeah, it’s a great method. And, uh, you know, someone said, oh, your kids are _________
Q. Oh. I had this picture of the dog pulling the cart like a sled.
A. Oh…
Q. No, no, I know that. [laugh] I’m sorry. It’s 10:30, so I’m just a little loopy. That’s funny.
A. I'm saying I’m sure you know
Q. yeah, yeah, yea [laugh]
A. with a stroller too. You know?
Q. Right.
A. But people often feel that the kids…that my children should have done all kinds of extra things, not realizing that they did a good job.
Q. Yeah.
A. Or, I remember one lady helped me in the grocery store and, uh, then she insisted on trying to go home with me. And I said, I’m fine and she kept saying, are you sure? And I said, you know, I appreciate the help you gave me but now I don’t need help. Now, so I really need you to not give me any more assistance. I can take care of this. She said, well, how are you going to manage it? And once she saw me pull the cart, she said, oh, that’s how you do it. So, sometimes, I can explain and sometimes I can’t. It’s, it’s tiring explaining every single time.
Q. Having to defend that you really can do it on your own.
A. Exactly.
Q. And what kind of things did they think the kids should do?
A. Oh, everything from getting me dressed… Oh, my Gosh they'd say you; your daughter get you dressed? I'd say uh huh yeah, that's, that's why I had my children so they could take care of.
Q. Oh, gosh.
A. Um, and, and, to, to buying, you know… Or they say, your children are not with you, when I’d be coming to the grocery store. I don’t get that now that they’re… so much anymore. When they were, you know, teenagers, or twelve or 13. But when they were little, I used to bring them more.
Q. Sure.
A. Of course. And they’d say, no, you know, well, you should have them with you. Um, and I, and, uh… You know, their response was they would just have a hard time or if I was carrying things, and they saw my daughter, they would say, you need to help your mother. You need to help her. You have to watch her and make sure she doesn’t fall. And all this was…
Q. Oh.
A. …would, would have enough of my daughter. Still, she gets annoyed. just thinking about all that [laugh].
Q. Hm.
A. You know, she’d say, mom, they’re always saying it because you’re blind. They say I should help you. Of course, the kids have been a help, and they can be help in a lot of ways, you know, families help each other anyway. Yes, they do extra things because I can’t see and because their dad can’t see either, but, but, um, the public-- the general public thinks they should do everything and that’s why we have them and, you know.
Q. [laugh]
A. and now that they have a car, I should be all set, right?
Q. Oh, my goodness.
A. they have a car and take me wherever I want to go and, now and then, he will certainly give me a ride but mostly I, I simply take care of myself. I, I continue to work. I always have.
Q. Yeah.
A. Um…
Q. Well, I mean, it’s just terrible that they would think that you are so unfeeling…
A. Yeah.
Q. …as a mother to have borne these children into slavery. I mean [laugh]
A. It's so weird, it's funny.
Q. Oh, I can’t even imagine…
A. They’ll say, oh, well, they have to, they have to behave in such a way, or they have to help…
Q. Oh.
A. …and the attitude was that a lot of people, when they were very, very small…
Q. Oh.
A. When the kids did want to help when they were little people. Oh, isn’t that nice.
Q. Yeah.
A. That was kind of…the kids wanted to help ‘cause little kids like to please their parents. They like to help. Um, one thing I say, we used a backpacks when they were little and, um, um, the dogs, and, uh, it was very nice using those because we would know where they were, um, we could keep track of them a lot easier. We used the harness. Now and then a little harness for the children.
Q. Oh. Neat.
A. But, um, we didn’t use it too much. They, they learned to hold our hands and that was, that was that.
Q. Yeah.
A. And they just learned that that’s what they did.
Q. Yeah.
A. Uh…
Q. What about tips for airports and, uh…
A. Oh, airports. Well, I usually ask for assistance when I'm at the airport. I call…when I call ahead and get my reservation.
Q. Neat.
A. Uh, so, it’s nice because you can pre-board and get situated. But when it’s time to get off, you have to wait, also. You have to wait 45 minutes sometimes. Uh…
Q. Wait where?
A. Wait on the plane. Once I had to wait 45 minutes because they say, well, we’ll get someone to help you to get your luggage and stuff. If that takes a long time, then that’s a frustration.
Q. Yeah.
A. One time, again, last summer in Virginia, the people I was talking to were going to the same place I was going and I said, do you mind if I just walk with you? And they said, no, and then I got off right away. And we, we all went together. We shared a taxi, and it was very nice. Again, I think it’s a point of being assertive and taking the assistance from the airport, but if someone else can help, that’s fine. And, if, uh, I can get off the plane myself and do whatever I need to do myself, I’ll do that, too. You have to size up the situation and see how, what, how, what it’s like there.
Q. Yes.
A. Um, finding luggage, that’s a big job. Someone has to, the airport has to help me do that. At JFK or LaGuardia or…
Q. How do you usually work that?
A. I just, again, wait, wait and get off the plane and I say that I need assistance and usually someone from the airline will help me get the luggage off the, uh, rack, and then to get a taxi, or whatever.
Q. And how do they locate yours?
A. Um, with however I’ve labeled it, and I’ll tell them what color it is and what the tags say, you know… They’ve got the airline tags on there.
Q. Anything kind of special, or…
A. No.
Q. Yeah. And, uh, I wonder, have you used, do you use maps of any kind?
A. Sometimes. Um, I’m getting better at maps now because I teach…that’s one of the things I teach…and when I teach maps, I have to do graphs and, um, social studies…we do GED classes. You know, I, uh… a lot of that is a lot of maps, you know. Well, more maps than, than I think is important to see maps and to see raised lines on maps. Um, for, for different routes, uh, I’ve looked at some… I think if I studied them seriously, they would help me more than they do. Um, I want give an analogy the other day… A friend of mine was here at the train and…in Mt. Kisco, and I was going home and she, uh, doesn’t have sight now but she did, and she said, this is where… Although she didn’t have sight when she lived where she lives, but she still was very visual in her explanation to say exactly where the tracks were. I already knew that, but she drew on my back and my son used to do that, too, just never even thinking about it, just do it.
Q. Yeah.
A. And it was very helpful, and I told her that this was very good that she did that. Um, because it helps give more of a grounding and that’s what maps can do, too. I found that maps used to confuse me and when I was growing up, I don’t think I used them enough.
Q. Um hm.
A. So because of that, it’s not my favorite thing to do. I feel like I’d rather go and do it. But it makes sense. The talking maps and the tactile maps…all of it makes sense and the more I use it, the more… If I pretend that my fingers are my feet, you know, and I can do that and it does make more sense.
Q. Neat.
A. But it’s something I have to train myself to do.
Q. What kind of maps have you been looking at?
A. Um, Baruch has some kind of subway maps, and I’ve looked at those. Um, now we’ve been doing some experiments also with Steven Landau talking tactile tablet and that has maps of the world. So again, this is not mobility, per se, not for walking around New York City, but, uh, those are the kind of things we’re basically working at. Um, I haven’t looked at any local travel stuff in quite some time. But I can. I know Baruch has a lot of things I could look at.
Q. Yeah.
A. So, I need to really look at what they have and see how they’ve done it. Actually, because I want to be more skilled ‘cause I want to be able to teach other people this stuff and if I’m not good at it, I get better at it…
Q. Yeah.
A. …if that makes sense.
Q. I think I learn a great deal when I teach.
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. What’s, uh, one thing that happens frequently when you’re traveling that you like the least?
A. People, uh, will ask me stupid things, like, do you know where you’re going and can I pet your dog and all that stuff. Um, if I’m on the train and I’m trying to be quiet, they want to know how Braille works and, even though I’m a real strong Braille advocate, and I want to educate people, I just want to be quiet and read a book. I don’t want people to ask me a million questions and I don’t…When the start asking me things, like, where do you live and are you married or do you live alone, I usually put back the same I don’t… I’ll either be evasive or I’ll ask them the same questions. And then they get quiet because I’m asking them the same personal questions that they’re asking me.
Q. Really.
A. because I find it… Again, most people are kind. I don’t think people, most people don’t want to rip you off or, or, or be unkind but people are nosy…they’re just curious…they want to see. Oh, does she know where she’s going? Does she know what stop…what stop are you getting off? Today, they said, what stop are you getting off and I said, 42nd, where are you getting off? And it didn’t matter, ‘cause they’ll say, oh, where do you live? Oh, well, I’m not going to say the town that I live in.
Q. No.
A. So, I get annoyed with, with a lot of those questions. Oh, do you live alone? Oh, you have children. Oh, you know… Whatever.
Q. [laugh]
A. Are you married and I say, no, are you? [laugh] You know… Or I might say, yes. I might just say whatever. Um, I, I like…
Q. It’s just inappropriate.
A. inappropriate.
Q. Yeah, so, what do you want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?
A. Well, I want them to say, can I help you?
Q. Yeah.
A. It’s real important and, if you say yes, they need to listen to how they can help and if they…if, if not, they should step back and let you do it. One thing I like to do… I don’t do it a lot now, but, when my children were small, I used to go to their school or the school system…or a lot of school systems in the Westchester area…sometimes I did it for Guiding Eyes but sometimes I did it with word of mouth and I would do a whole talk about Braille and about being blind and, you know, colors and, you know, verbalizations and money identifying and how my dog works and I bring a cane and I bring, you know, different things for the children to see and I also showed children sighted guide technique because I felt that… I’d always ask a volunteer child to come because it would help them learn and I also said to them, you know, when they’d ask their questions, that pedestrian safety is such a, a serious issue and how so many people jump in their cars and they’re not paying attention to, not only blind pedestrians, but older pedestrians, pedestrians in general. Um, they’re not paying attention to people with strollers, you know, babies, and cars are just going, going, going and not paying attention at all and I just remind people…even the little ones who are seven or eight years old, that when you grow up and you drive, you know, you want to remember about people walking across the street. Give them a chance to walk across the street and wait a moment extra. And I’m hoping… It’s, like, when you’re teaching anyway…you know, when you’re teaching kids, you think, oh, you can’t reach them all. But you can reach some of them and hopefully some of those kids will grow up and remember that. And, and that… I… You know, to me, it’s a real important thing for people to learn and adults need to learn that also…adults who drive. So, um, it…in New York City and in lots of other places they just…
Q. Yeah.
A. …have more awareness. So, I would like…
Q. Have you had some close calls, I guess?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Yeah.
A. With cars…yeah. With cane and dog.
Q. Yeah.
A. It’s scary, you know. Um, and, um, it is.
Q. Yeah.
A. And, again, you have to be so careful and, if anyone who is blind gets hurt or killed, it’s so horrible, but then I remember some people with sight also get hurt and killed in the streets or on the street…
Q. Yeah.
A. …you know. And it’s, again, a whole awareness thing that we need to educate. I really… We need to educate drivers, really big time and, and the whole law needs to be enforced, needs to be much stronger than they are for us as pedestrians. I also believe that, although we are taught skills to follow traffic, you know, patterns, and, of course, the parallel and the perpendicular traffic, that, often, the traffic, uh, uh, signals that talk, for example, or vibrate for a deafblind person can be very helpful and it means that we have to really fight to get these kind of things done. And I think to myself, well, you can see you have a traffic light. You can see you’ve got a line there to protect you against the trains or subways. To mean, that’s like seeing. If I hear or if I touch it, it’s my sight.
Q. Sure.
A. And, uh, so, again, it’s awareness. I’d like to see people just be more aware and listen. Listen to what, to, to what’s going to help us and not decide for us, like, what’s going to help us.
Q. Sure.
A. Uh, um…
Q. How do you handle being lost?
A. Uh, well, I…if there’s nobody around, sometimes I might yell and swear and scream, you know…
Q. [laugh]
A. Give me one moment. [aside to family member] Um, and, um, it’s, but usually, if I really don’t know where I am, I’ll try to figure it out, you know, what’s around. OK, ‘cause, you know, sometimes, it’s, this might sound weird, but, if it’s a route that I know, I just remember last year going to pay my taxes at H & R Block and I’ve done this for years, but coming home, I must have made a wrong turn and I didn’t know where I’d made the wrong turn so I didn’t know how to fix it.
Q. Right.
A. You know, because if you know. You can backtrack you can fix it. But I didn’t know so I was getting more lost. I was going to say the word lost but it is late, so I’m getting tired, too.
Q. Yeah.
A. But I was getting more lost and angry and confused. I, I just, usually, I will listen. I mean, I’ll even knocked on people’s doors if I’ve been, you know, really frustrated, and say, where what street is this?
Q. Uh huh.
A. Um, I’ll say… I don’t like to say, where am I, but I’ll try to say, um… OK, I know, let me give you an example. Yesterday, coming back from the printer, I haven’t done that route very much. I know the route; I know where the bus will let me off but I didn’t know what side of the street it let me off on. So, I, then, became confused and just I knew where I wanted to get to, but I didn’t know exactly where I was. So, until I found out exactly where I was, um, I crossed… I, I did an extra crossing, so that took, you know, time and I… It’s because I didn’t have it clear in my mind that I was lost and yet I knew where I needed to go when I wasn’t lost far.
Q. Well, it sounds to me, if I may, um, that you were testing out a theory. You were going looking for a place that would sound and feel and give you all the clues that would give you an I.D. and then you would know where to go from there. Is that what you were doing?
A. Yes. And, also, I probably should have…when I got my direction, I should have said, you know, what side are we, or you now, where are we…what’s here. You know, that’s what I did. I said, what’s here. What corner am I on… Am I near the Barne's and Nobles is or whatever. Once I know where I am, I think that’s what I want the public to know. Is once… It’s not that… There’s a fine line here. If you’re lost and you don’t know where you are, that’s one thing. But if you’re lost and you know in general where you are and you just need a little bit of direction, the public sometimes doesn’t understand and they think you’re completely lost. There’s a difference, if you can get it.
Q. Um hm.
A. I think you can. Um, I hope I’m making myself clear.
Q. Yeah.
A. Anyway, um, but, but I will say I know where I need to go and I know what I’m, you know, what I’m looking for…what, what landmarks are around, what stores, but I don’t know what corner I’m at now. If you could tell me where exactly I am, then I know how to put things together in my mind. And, so, that’s what I have to kind of clearly state to people and it doesn’t happen often, but that’s what I did yesterday.
Q. Yeah.
A. It worked. Um, so, lost… it just depends, um… If there are a lot of people around, I’ll ask. But people don’t always listen.
Q. Right.
A. They, they think… I’ll say, what corner is this? They say one street. No, no. There are two streets here. What is the other street?
Q. Right.
A. Um, you’re crossing 66th and Columbus. No, no, I can’t be crossing 66th and Columbus. I’m either crossing Columbus or I’m crossing 66th, you know. People don’t really listen to the question. Uh…
Q. Right.
A. …and that’s… And they don’t mean to. I’ve had somebody tell me and say, you know, I wasn’t listening and, so, they’re learning, too, slowly. You know…
Q. Right.
A. …of, of being aware. But it’s just that there are zillions of people out there [laugh] who, you know, um… So…
Q. Well, I wonder, what kinds of things do you use a landmarks?
A. I listen for a lot of them. Since I use a dog, I don’t look for a lot of things that I can touch. Now and then, I do, like, pole or a bus stop shelter or a bench, you know, if I’m near something, I know a bench is there and even if I’m not touching it, if I had the cane, I’d find it. I might say to someone to know we should be near a bench. Where would that be? Or, even on the Metro North platform, I know there’s a bench once I walk up a few feet on the platform, I know the bench is to my right. So, those are little… Or there’s a little shelter there, uh, and…also that I pass. You can hear that, also.
Q. Neat.
A. You don’t have to touch it, you can hear that…the change.
Q. And then you know the bench is there. So, what does that tell you?
A. Then I know, I know my orientation. I know where I am. I know I can sit down. Or I know I can step in that little shelter. Or I know the newspaper stand is there. Again, a lot of it is, um, again, it’s… The dog is trained…you’re not to bump into those things like…but you can be, you’re close to them, that you can hear them.
Q. Yeah. Um, so that means you’re at the bus stop…
A. Right.
Q. …and it gives you a specific location. Neat. Um, do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?
A. Yes. I’m in the American Council of the Blind. And…
Q. Neat.
A. …not AER yet, but that’s what… I’m looking towards AER. I’m going to AER functions.
Q. Neat.
A. Um, what else. I guess that’ it. Uh, teachers of English as a second language.
Q. Oh, OK.
A. Yeah. There’s a whole… Did you know there’s a national group for everybody now.
Q. Yeah, sure. Oh, yeah, it’s great.
A. ________ strange ideas, educational _________ One thing I will say, on another… Maybe… Oh, this has nothing to do with ____________ Um, just because their English as a second language just came up now. I did something with them which I thought was a good awareness and I did a workshop. You know, you can go and do workshops for different things and I, I did a whole thing for teaching English to blind students…
Q. Neat.
A. …help them get aware of…like again orientation about things in the classroom and sound and, and tactile things. And people, maybe three or four people, you know, ‘cause you know at those conferences you never know how many people are going to attend your stuff.
Q. Right.
A. But it was enough to, to, really, I think, you know, see people ask questions about eye conditions, you know, questions about the things that they had never thought about before.
Q. Hm. What do you attribute to your present level of mobility?
A. Um, I think I attribute life experience…
Q. Yeah.
A. …has, has built it up for me. I mean, certainly the teaching of it, of, of cane use and, of, guide dog use, that’s, that’s a big part of it. I couldn’t do I without the groundwork, but, then, the rest of it is the doing of it.
Q. Yes.
A. And, and the learning and, and the… Yeah, it’s…you know some of its textbook theory and some of it isn’t because you don’t read everything in the book and then you find out, oh, there’s construction here and there’re obstacles and, uh, you read the book and the dog is supposed to take you around that, but that’s… Or, or, or, or make sure you don’t hit the, the overhang. But that happens sometimes. Or, um, you know, things like having an extra cane because a cane did break on me once or the tip gets stuck in a, in a…got stuck and came off, you know.
Q. What do you do?
A. Well, I, I’m sure I used the cane without a tip until I got home and got…
Q. [laugh]
A. …[laugh] another one. But, but most of all, that, I think, again, is life, life…
Q. Yeah, yeah,
A. …if we build on it and we learn from each other. I think, you know, the classes, the lectures…all that stuff helps us and some other peers, some other, other blind people, you know, who share their stories, or for people in the field, also, because, um, you know, I think we learn what helps one person might not help another person and it depends on their type of blindness what, what will help. I remember being somewhere and people would tap the chair. Or they'll say [excitedly] over here, over here, over here and they would clap their hands. And I’m thinking, I don’t need that much verbal stuff. But then, I thought the clients they’re working with may need that, so, that’s why they’re doing that. So, I didn’t want to be impolite and say, OK, I think I said, I’ve got it, you know, that’s all right. I said something polite, and I could see that they’re trying to be really helpful. Sometimes people in the profession, in the one field, are overly helpful, um…
Q. Oh.
A. …I find that. Because they’re trying really hard. Maybe they’re… Maybe I'm making a generalization here.
Q. Do you ever give them feedback?
A. Yes. I do. Um, and then I also try to remember where they’re coming from. I don’t want to be, like, oh, I know that…you don’t have to tell me that kind of thing, or, you know, um, no, I don’t want to travel the wall…I don’t trail walls. You know, that sounds pretty stuck up. I mean, I can trail a wall if I want to, but I don’t want to. Maybe I don’t need to, you know. [laugh] That’s my two-year-old self coming out.
Q. Who’s telling you to trail the wall? [laugh]
A. I’m just thinking of an example of, of, of being somewhere, of being at some kind of a conference, you know, professional conference, and, so, I might meet an O&M person or an RT person trying to be helpful…OK, trail the wall and do… They’re giving me many more cues than I need, so, I, again, I think to myself, well, maybe they’re working with a lot of elderly people or …
Q. [laugh]
A. …people who just lost their sight. So, I’m trying to understand where they’re coming from and, so, I don’t want to say, well, I don’t… You know, that’s easy for me to do that. I don’t want… I don’t… I think I try to do a little bit of that and say, thank you. It depends on who I’m with, where we’re going, how much time there is, you know, for talking. If it’s, it it’s an open exchange forum, for example, then I would tell them, but if I’m trying to get somewhere, I’m not going to really…
Q. Yeah.
A. stand there and explain that…
Q. Right.
A. …just kind of let it go. Um…
Q. Neat. Um, would you get more mobility instruction?
A. Um, I’m sure I probably should have down the road somewhere. Um…
Q. What for?
A. I don’t know. I guess I’m thinking to keep my cane skills OK, but, obviously, I did all right last year when [dog name] got hurt. You know, one of my colleagues helped me, when he got hurt, to show me outdoor things, you know, to help me get into the building. Um, and, you know, coming from the subway…they just showed me a few, uh, you know… There’s something near the stairs and a few poles and at the Guild, you know, there are, like, a lot cement blocks that lead to the… These are blocks…
Q. Yeah.
A. that you drive
Q. Sort of help you find a landmark.
A. Yeah. So, what my colleague did, she was very good and she said, I can help you and she gave me, you know, maybe an hour, which was on her own time, which was very, very kind.
Q. She was O&M.
A. Yes.
Q. Neat.
A. Yeah, and, uh, but other than that, no. I haven’t really, um… I think when I moved to New Paltz…I lived there for a few years…then, um, my [laugh] This is…actually it should be off the record, but this I’d like off the record.
Q. Oh, I’ll turn it off. [laugh]
A. Yeah, and…
Q. [laugh] OK, we’ll skip to the next question because we had some secret information that could not be recorded. [laugh] Uh, what advice would you give to O&M instructors?
A. Oh, um, I’m going to ask you to wait one moment now because ______________ coming…
Q. Oh, yes, yes.
A. Only one second…sorry.
Q. Cool.
A.OK, so, what if I were O&M people.
Q. Yes.
A. Hm. I, I think first I would say to them that I think it’s a wonderful profession because they’re really in a helping profession and it’s so necessary and it’s very vital for people to function independently and I know that they go through a lot of training and it’s a lot of, you know…dedication…it’s a dedication and I would just say to them, first, to commend people that are in that field, as you commend other people who are in the service field, and just say to really, um, to be relaxed and not always to worry about getting things done by the textbook…not that that’s what everybody does, but, you know how we… I think in every profession, we try to do that, sometimes, when we’re teachers. We say, oh, but the book says this or that. You know, page such
Q. Um hm.
A. Or whatever. And, and, to, to see that, OK, this might be a different kind of situation and let’s see what’s going to work for this person and maybe this person maybe isn’t comfortable doing A, so we’ll do B. Um, I can’t think of, you know, an example of what you’re not comfortable with, but just to really listen to what the person is saying and…
Q. Yeah.
A. …realize…and I’m sure they do…and just to realize that maybe we can try something else.
Q. Do you have an example of…
A. No.
Q. …what you’re talking about?
A. I honestly don’t.
Q. Do you feel like sometimes you weren’t listened to?
A. No, honestly, I can’t say that.
Q. Yeah. I just know that, um, I have heard that in some cases and I’ve also heard that, um, goal-setting is sometimes a challenge if you have goals and you come into a setting for an O&M instruction but that the O&M instructor has a different set of goals…
A. Yeah.
Q. Has that ever happened to you?
A. Not to me but I can see it… I could see that that would be a very difficult thing.
Q. Yeah. Yeah.
A. Especially if a student, uh, doesn’t…isn’t comfortable traveling or doesn’t think that they can make it, you know… I have a student now who is so… Well, I guess her goals worked out but she was afraid to even go out of her door and it took the person…the O&M person, a long time, but she reached her and now she comes to classes three times a week, and she travels independently on the subway and her parents were all for her to do this. She is a young woman and she bragged and bragged and bragged about her O&M instructor.
Q. Oh.
A. It’s the nicest thing to see someone really make it and to travel to get, you know… I got here. and used--you know access-a-ride is OK but, you know, she uses the subways and does all this and, and she said, I, she said to me, I never thought I could walk out of my door.
Q. Oh.
A. And, to me, that I would say is worth all…
Q. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you had some good guys.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And, uh, that’s the interview.
A. Well, OK. It’s been fun.
Q. It has. And thank you so much for spending all this time with me.
A. I hope it helped.
Q. Well, I wonder, do you have anybody that you could recommend? I’m looking for one more person…
A. Oh…
Q. …then I’ll have a hundred.
A. Ooh, wow. Um…
Q. He should be employed and visually impaired. Not much more, um…
A. Right, um…
Q. …than that. Do you have…
A. I wonder…let me speak to someone and I’ll call you.
Q. Thanks.
A. I’ll call you tomorrow. Oh, give me till Thursday. Is that OK/
Q. Absolutely.
A. Yeah.
Q. Yeah.
A. And it’s really been fun to work with you on this level. Um, I just want to tell you that I really enjoyed this.
Q. Oh, yeah, well, me, too.
A. As I said, I don’t know quite what we’re doing down the road with the other stuff, but I have a feeling we’ll be in something. We’ll have some kind of connection.
Q. Oh…
A. __________
Q. Oh, good.
A. ________ very nice.
Q. Yeah.
A. ____________meet… I don’t know, need to do anything…
Q. Will you be coming to the AER International, maybe?
A. Um…
Q. In Toronto?
A. …_______________ but…
Q. That’s 2002.
A. Oh, ____________, well…
Q. 2002 in Toronto.
A. Well, that sounds nice.
Q. Yes.
A. It’s possible. Um, ___ think of… I’d like to present…I’d like to do more presentations so, I always like to do that kind of thing. I, you know…
Q. Absolutely, I agree.
A. So, if I can help you in any way at Hunter, even if I don’t come to, you know, right now in the fall, or whatever…
Q. Is the dog you use right now the one that got smacked?
A. yeah
Q. He didn’t look it at all.
A. he doesn't, it's like nobody can believe it.
Q. Wow.
A. they can't believe it, they say there’s no scar…he lost three teeth…
Q. Oh.
A. …and that was awful. But he's…
Q. What a trooper.
A. He really is, I tell you.
Q. Yes. A sweetheart. I could just feel his energy. He’s just a sweetheart.
A. He’s, he’s, um, his spirit is just so, like, wonderful.
Q. Oh. Yeah.
A. Honestly, if I were him, I would have said, no. No more of this.
Q. [laugh] That’s a good excuse to go [laugh] to greener pastures [laugh]
A. But you should see him every morning. It’s, like, he knows we’re going.
Q. Ready to go.
A. Weekends…
Q. Ready to work.
A. Weekends…he’s a different dog. He knows that
Q. [laugh]
A. …he knows he’s not going to work.
Q. [laugh]
A. ________________
Q. That’s amazing.
A. If it’s raining…he’s got a little arthritis…he’ll just head back in.
Q. [laugh]
A. ________ no, I’m not going out. I'm going in the house.
Q. [laugh]
A. And, uh, he’s, he’s his own… He’s, he’s very smart.
Q. [laugh] A little too smart, if you ask me.
A. Yeah.
Q. [laugh]
A. when I saw you it’s like, oh, this is new. And when I come back again, he’ll remember and say, oh, I remember this.
Q. Yeah, yeah.
A. Well, thank you.
Q. Thank you.
A. Oh, you’re welcome ___________
Q. Good.
A. I like doing this kind of thing. I hope is it helpful.
Q. Oh, it has.
A. And I will have my thinking cap on and will call you, um, in day or two with a couple of names.
Q. Thank you so much.
`
A. You’re welcome.
Q. All righty. Night.
She was pushed to be a free-range child until she changed schools, and the rules changed. She wasn’t given a long cane, but she was told to always use a sighted guide and never take the stairs. One summer after 8th grade she got “a taste of using a long cane for the first time” but she wouldn’t be allowed to use a long cane until High School. The fascination is how we get away with this still today. Blind children still made to feel like something is wrong with them – but it’s the substandard tools that is keeping them from truly being equal.
Interviewed by: Grace Ambrose
Interview date: 8/15/01
Transcription Lenni
Transcription Date: 8/19/01
Reviewed by: Grace Ambrose
Review date: 10/19/2001
52 pages
