Turn Leads Into Loyal Customers with Nadine Nethery

## Nadine Nethery

Customer experience and retention strategist Nadine Nethery shares how she evolved from copywriting into connecting the full customer journey, so business owners stop chasing leads and start maximising ROI from the customers they already have. We dig into what a strategic audience survey really uncovers (beyond guesswork), why feedback feels uncomfortable but is essential, and how to use AI for speed without losing the human insight that makes messaging convert.

Nadine also breaks down what “behaviour-driven evergreen” looks like in practice, including using email engagement signals to route people into the right nurture path, plus why some unscalable personal touches still matter. Finally, she explains her interactive Retention Games Summit format and what made it stand out in a sea of samey online events.

**Key topics covered**
- Retention strategy and customer-first growth 
- Strategic audience surveys and message mining 
- Human-first marketing in an AI-heavy world 
- Behaviour-based email funnels and intent signals 
- Interactive events and speaking as lead generation 

**Resources**
- 10 tailored-to-you survey questions: https://candocontent.com/survey-questions 
- State of the customer report: https://candocontent.com/state-of-the-customer-report

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Transcript

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Audio Only - All Participants 0:41

Hi, everyone, and welcome to today's episode of the Authority Builder Podcast, and today I'm joined by Nadine. Nadine Nethery is the human-first customer experience and retention strategist for savvy online business owners like you, who are done chasing new leads at all cost. Your customers notice when a brand genuinely gets them, and Nadine is here to make sure that yours does. So she's the person you call on when you're sick of working harder for less and want to finally maximize your return on inve- investment for every lead. And this is something that we know a lot about because we focus very highly on finding leads here at Kaffeen and with our clients. it's my favorite, work experiment, is trying out new ways to find leads. But of course, there is, the other side of that is making sure once you've got them, you're maximizing the investment you get. So, welcome, Nadine. It's lovely to have you here today Yes. Thank you so much for having me, Charlotte. so good to connect and talk all things, retention, leads, audience research, and how that all connects. And I know you started as a copywriter about 10 years ago after being- Mm-hmm made redundant from your corporate comms role. Can you walk me through the pivot from writing copy to what you do now, which I know, as we mentioned already, is helping online business owners connect all those moving pieces. So when did that shift actually happen for you? Yeah, so it, happened somewhat organically. So initially, when I started out after redundancy, what it's like, new business owner. Yeah. You do everything for everyone and take on any client to do any work to- Yeah pay your bills, right? but I pretty quickly worked out that the customers that I worked with that got the best results out of my copy and the messaging and the strategies that we put together, they were looking at the bigger picture. So they didn't just come to me for, a landing page or a standalone welcome- Yeah sequence or nurture sequence, and they were just as obsessed about the customer and really understanding the customer, as I was. So- Yeah while I started out, as I said, as, copywriter, taking orders, giving people what they wanted, I pretty quickly- Yeah worked out that my strength, which is my Clifton Strength, assessment- Yes, I did that I did that around the time as well. Yeah. Yeah, so I quickly worked out that my secret weapon as a copywriter was really connecting all the moving pieces and that- Mm bigger picture, visualizing what's possible, the creative and strategic combination behind the scenes. Yeah. So I really became obsessed with, what came before the copy. Yeah. So that was audience research, and going really deep on the customer to then- Oh, I love that bit. That's my favorite bit is customer listening. I lo- it's just so- I know, right? full of juicy insights, and I just love it so much. I'm just so obsessed with it. Mm. And, the funny thing is once my customers were on the receiving end of, this juicy survey that uncovered just so many golden nuggets for- Yeah pretty much anything in their business, they were hooked as well. Yeah but yeah, so it evolved from, a curiosity on my part to then realizing just the power and the potential behind it, and, yeah, and then I organically moved into, like, connecting all the moving pieces. So once we had converted that lead into a customer, what was that next step? Like, what funnel? I hate the term technically, but what- Yeah strategic, customer journey could lead people to that next purchase? Yeah. or, like, organically directing them towards that next logical choice for them. a, a good niche to be in because I feel like we get distracted with all of the things we could be doing and- Mm over what we should be doing and what people are asking us to do, what our clients are literally saying, "We need this." So you said in the past a lot of your clients are doing a bit of everything, but not anything properly. So they've got membership here, digital program there, some one-to-one. as we've mentioned, it's easy to get distracted when in, especially in online business and coaching. So what's usually going wrong when somebody lands with you in that state, when they've been doing a bit of everything, but not 100%? Mm. Yeah, they, they take offers individually, I feel. So they are very focused on that next launch and how to get people to buy. But, they never look at the bigger picture and how it all connects. And so how I look at your offer suite and your business is that bigger picture, and how you can actually put your customer behind the steering wheel- Yeah of their customer journey. So via clever automations, via, email marketing where you're actually tracking what people are clicking on, what they're engaging with, counting how many times people actually land on the sales page, taking signals from that for potentially your future launch, your next launch. So just helping my clients, yeah, be more strategic and intentional about how their offers fit together. And if someone doesn't buy this time round, that doesn't mean they're not, the perfect fit customer. It just might me- might mean you have to funnel them down a different avenue until they're ready to buy. Yeah. Absolutely. Your signature product. Yeah, I think it's really easy for us to give up on, somebody or even a service if it's not being bought immediately, and not- Mm recognizing how long the, that journey does take from, well, the know, like, and trust journey, basically. W- how long it takes from somebody coming into your world to actually purchasing. And just, we... it's, it sounds l- I know it's not this, I know it's, like, lack of self-confidence, et cetera, but it can seem really self-absorbed when we make really rash decisions really quickly and make it all about us. Like, "They don't like it, I'm giving up," And not actually realizing that, no, it's just what else is going on in their business- Mm what stage they're at, what season they're at, how long they need to be hearing this, how much repetition they need before they're willing to buy, what evidence they need, et cetera. There's just so many other factors and, we can seem a little self-absorbed when we make rash decisions, but it's actually coming from a place of insecurity. And, you've said that everything you do starts with a strategic audience survey. So for somebody who's never done this, what does a good survey actually uncover that a business owner can't get from sitting and thinking about it? Mm. a strategic audience survey starts with the goal. So I feel often my clients, those who have actually done a survey at some point, they, throw a whole bunch of tick boxes and drop-downs at people, and then work with, again, their assumptions, right? Like, if you're asking people, "Why didn't you buy from me?" and you give them money, time, like, not the right fit, you are removing that ability for people to actually tell you what's going on. Yeah. So, always starting with the goal. Like, what do you really want to find out? Is it to help you shape an offer, for example? Do you wanna find out the perfect format, the messaging, bonuses to include, objections that are holding people back from buying, potential messaging gaps that you need to close before people are actually ready to consider your product? Yeah. There are so many, yeah, important considerations before you throw that survey out there. and I feel mapping it out strategically should take a lot more time than, even analyzing the results at the end. Like, do it strategically. You get one shot at it. Yeah. And, the outcome, as we touched on before, is just so powerful for your offers, your messaging, pretty much any decision you make in your business. And nowadays, 2026, right, it's even the foundation for your AI brief. So if you want your AI to work better for you when it comes to content creation, copywriting, I know we all, tapping into AI to write things for us, the more first-hand insights you have, the better- Yeah the AI output is going to be. So, yeah, super critical. And I know that your whole point of difference right now is amplifying the human elements of a brand while everyone else outsources their thinking to AI. So where is that line for you? You've just mentioned it a couple of times. You clearly, you clearly use AI heavily, so how do you use it without letting it flatten everything to middle of the road, same, same messaging that doesn't mean anything to anyone? Yeah, so in my business I personally throw manual tasks, repetitive tasks at, AI. Yeah. I also love AI for Oh, my God, I just did it this morning. Like, helping me make sense of Airtable automations- Oh, my God and, oh, my God. Oh, my G- it, it builds my Airtables now. It's so- How good is it, right? It's amazing. Yeah. Or rather I Sorry, I'm interrupting you, but I have- Yeah, no found that, like, I'm curious to see what you do, but, like, I talk to Claude about what I want, and then- Mm Claude tells me how to brief Airtable's AI, so then that builds it for me. So you do it in Airtable? yeah. That's good. Yeah. I do, I do I brief Claude on how to I, I tell it exactly what I want. Mm-hmm. I can It has all the knowledge of how my systems are set up in the back end, like, where my folders are, et cetera, what kind of data I already have, has insights into my Airtable. But then I get it to give me the brief for Airtable's own AI, because- I find that then, it just builds so much more fluidly, has been my experience of it. But it, it just- Mm requires less amends afterwards. But, yeah, I'm curious, like- Yep how, how that's looking for you. Yeah. So I, I actually get Claude to build it for me. So I don't work with the Airtable AI. Oh, interesting. And it's been amazing. Good. Like, I just, I'm hosting my first virtual bundle kind of event- Yeah like a fun way to round up the year. And, I just thought, "Oh, God, I can't be arsed to build the base from scratch." Yeah. And I want a leaderboard, and, tracking affiliate, referrals- Yeah. Yeah how many, leads everyone brought in. I also want participants to be able to get rewards for bringing in people. Yeah. So I got Airtable to build me, for example, a trackable unique code that I can give people when they sign up to the event to then share, but then also track how many people. It's, it's just mind-blowing. Yeah. Like, that would've taken me hours. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I reckon I went back and forth half an hour, and it's all done. The leaderboard. It's just Oh, my God. So good. Yeah. The space it frees up in your brain is incredible, to be able to- Yeah execute on so many- Mm other ideas. For me, it's not about, well, now I can clock off early. It's like what else that has been on my to-do list for ages business-wise? What other value? Yeah. What other thing can I do? And it's, Yeah, it To me it's I know as the, the week we're talking, there's a lot in the media, around the Anthropic researcher who's talking about- Mm the, the dangers of AI. But in terms of my own business, it's enabled me to be able to do so much more, and I'm super grateful for its role within my business, for sure. Mm I do think we give our clients so much more as a result. Oh, absolutely. It's, yeah, as I said, manual tasks, like analys- an- analyzing things, for example. my data, trends- Yes things like that, it's amazing. Or even make automations to, check Airtable against my email platform- Yeah and then send out a automation based on tags. it's just, yeah. Anyway- Yeah I could talk for hours. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it just, opens up so much more time, as you said, for other things. And, so coming back to that amplifying the human experience, I have really fallen in love with interactive tools inside my business. Yeah. So again, freeing up time so I can then create things for my, for my clients and my customers. So particularly inside my membership, I've really- Yeah leaned into interactive dashboards and tools where people can engage with the strategies that I'm giving them. But sometimes- Yeah I just, like, people watch a video, they're still none the wiser sometimes how it applies to them. Yeah. So just giving them the ability to pick up where my video walkthrough left off- Yeah, yeah and then actually create something they can take and run with. So that has been amazing. I've even designed a, audience survey builder. So briefed on my framework that I do- Yeah inside my one-on-one client projects are where I build surveys for my clients. Yeah. Where, yeah, based on some input, the, the offer, the audience, the type of person they want to audit, whether it's existing customers, past customers, what incentive they wanna give for people to, to respond. And the tool gives them a list of questions based on my framework they can run with, which again, removes that friction. Yeah. People actually do it. Yeah. They, yeah, have my framework to help them put that together, and then, the next step is bringing those audience survey results to me so we can discuss it together, identify the trends, and discuss what that means for their business. So again, it's not replacing human interaction with me. Yeah. It is just making sure they take that first step that is so critical, they get the results, the aha moments, and then it opens up the conversation. That's what I've found. people to do things that otherwise they might avoid, I think is one- Mm of the biggest, the biggest, yeah, reasons for it. And, just coming back to surveys and customer conversations, I know from my experience of doing them with, with my clients and also within my own business. Mm-hmm. I know I would admit to feeling deeply uncomfortable about it, but it does make a lot of people feel deeply uncomfortable. and you called it uncomfortable on its own at the best of times. So why do you think it is- Yeah and how do you get clients over the hump of actually asking, beyond, enabling them with these interactive tools that you've built to help them take those first steps? Yes, a lot of clients, actually, as you said, love the fact that they don't have to dig through the actual raw data. So I can- Yeah be the filter and sugarcoat a few things that potentially can be a bit confronting because we all know, right? Like, people are honest, particularly when it feels like a survey comes from someone else. Completely. Yeah. where they have a bit of a buffer. So, Yeah I had a client recently who came to me for exactly this purpose. She said she's somewhat sensitive, and, has assumptions and knows that certain things might come up, but she just wanted someone to look through it and then put it into the bigger context without that emotional attachment, to the data. Yeah. And same thing here. So in my membership, I'm like, "You send out the data," and then, like, I have a follow-up tool that helps them identify the first patterns based on the raw data to, again- Yeah just remove that friction. so it helps- Yeah them identify all the things we touched on, like objections, pain points, desires. Yeah. Yeah. They then come to that with me, and if we are curious somewhere, we can dig deeper together in our- Yeah kind of one-on-one session. So yeah, it can be confronting, but I totally believe even the worst feedback has so much potential in your business to make you a better business owner, to actually turn your office into something that help people and get people results. I think there's just such a huge penalty to not asking. Like, I know it's- Mm painful. I find it really uncomfortable. I have- Yeah automations and external providers, for higher level customer survey conversations that I use, so they clients can speak knowing that it's it's not to me, it is completely, independent of me, and they can be frank, which is exactly what I want. I, I feel so deeply uncomfortable about getting feedback. But I know, I know how valuable it is to my business. It's not just- Mm you get, testimonials out of it. You get quantifiable results that you m- may not have otherwise got. Mm. You get ideas about how to shape your marketing, how to shape your products. Like, when we were rewriting our entire website, the customer listening that we'd done, consolidated customer listening over a number of years, basically helped us to It completely wrote the website because then we knew we were speaking in the words that our clients use. And, the, the thing that I hear the most when I first get on a chemistry call with somebody is, like, them saying, "I listened to your podcast and it's like you're inside my head. exactly what I'm thinking." I was like, "That's because I asked." Mm. "And you told me, and then I repeated the words back to you." It's not, like, I'm Y- It's just so powerful when you do it because, so few people do. And I just think it's Yeah. Yeah. I will sit here all day long and say it's- Yeah it's the most valuable thing in your business, as long as you're willing to do it. Mm. So- And I feel your customers, they, they feel valued as well if they- Oh, completely not just that you're actually acting on it. Like, in my, membership, I always say, like, "Let me know anything I can help you with." Yeah. "Anything that doesn't quite work for you, let me know-" Yeah and I'll act on it." And, like, they could be little things, like someone says, "Oh, I never find the link to submit my monthly execution. Like, I w- I wish" Yeah you put that into the email that comes up" Yeah every month because then I" Yeah don't have to log into the portal." I'm like, "Of course. Oh my God, how didn't I think of that?" So simple. Yeah. And, this member's going- Yeah "Oh, I told her something. Next email, this link magically is there." Yeah. So the h- relationship between you and your customers is taken to another level if they- Completely take it seriously. As long as Yeah, as long as you're willing to be curious and not defensive. Mm. Exactly. Totally. so y- you made a fascinating observation when we spoke previously that the same people who are quietly ashamed to admit a human copywriter helped them three years ago are now proudly selling their AI copy prompts. So what do you make of that shift? What do How does that sit with you? Yeah, it's just curious. copywriting, as a profession has changed a lot. Mm-hmm. I feel like there's still work out there. There's still enough people that value strategic copy. and I feel like give it another year or so maybe, and people might come back round and actually appreciate the amount of strategy and thought process and- Mm-hmm research, as we said, that goes into it- Yeah that AI simply can't give you. So, yeah, it's just such a curious, obviously, ob- observation where people, yeah, wouldn't credit their copywriter on their website, but, then are selling prompts and telling you how they wrote a landing page in two minutes with X, Y, Z- Yeah process. So, yeah, it's interesting times. I just feel while AI is helpful with content creation and speeding things up, the real threat here is a widening, customer intelligence gap that then is amplified via AI. Because if you pair, mediocre briefs and assumptions- Yeah with AI, AI is, in a matter of minutes, scaling, Yeah those bad assumptions, and that means you're making decisions around your offer, your launch, your messaging based on those assumptions, and it's so hard- Yeah to backtrack once- Yeah you have made all those changes because, two minutes, and AI now can tweak that for you on your website too. So, just really being careful because, yeah, there's just that, that danger that you go far down a rabbit hole, and it's so hard to then make sense of anything that AI's given you, which actually, what came from your customers, which- Yes it's just this big mess, so- Yeah yeah- And throw hallucination in and- Yeah, right? Yeah. It's like, do the groundwork. Do your- Yeah own research, your own thinking, your- Yeah own strategizing, and then if you want to use AI to work with the brief, the audience research, the intel- Mm-hmm the message mining you've given AI, go for it. Just don't skip that important step where you are just outsourcing all the thought processes and strategies. I just think it comes down to ensuring the quality of your inputs. You cannot- Mm shortcut on that. You can use AI to accelerate everything, but the inputs always have to be of the highest quality and human. Otherwise, when I say inputs, I don't just mean the prompt. all of the, the, the data that goes into the prompt, be that qual or quan or, intention, a bigger focus of the- Yeah business is just And this is where customer listening plugs back in, right? But it's- Mm yeah, crucial that that is of the highest quality and the most expansive that it can be in order that AI can move that forward at scale with, at a quality, level. Mm. So b- I'm curious about your own business. Beyond word of mouth and repeat business, you lean hard on strategic speaking. So I'm curious what that phrase like, what about that phrase rather, what makes it strategic for you? How do you actually choose which summits and stages are worth a yes now that hundreds the old hundreds of survi- subscribers- of OneGig era has faded out, and it's not really a thing- Yeah so much anymore? Yeah, I'm very, very discerning around, the pitch I get. So, it's probably a 50/50 where I pitch myself for speaking opportunities, and then 50% is people approaching me. Yeah. So a lot of it comes down to trust. Ideally, I know the person already, which is always ideal, right? that their- Yeah values are aligned, their audience is similar to who you want to talk to. I'm a bit vain when it comes to branding, so if I can get a sense of how this summit or, virtual event is going to be, represented online- Yeah I do know for a fact that good design, good UX on the landing page, on the sign-up page, all plays a huge role. So that comes into it. and then yeah, definitely very picky around topic alignment. So if it's a summit that... Just trying to think here, Is about, AI automation and, plugging, everything into AI to replace humans, obviously that's not the right fit for me. So- yeah really strategic about people being interested in what I have to say and- Yeah my approach to, yeah, to this particular topic. And do you, do you sp- how much time do you spend looking for, or how do you, how do you even find those? I'm, I'm just curious 'cause I'm like- Yeah I know people come to me with opportunities, but then going out there and just really understanding it is always feels like such a mammoth task. Mm. and I, I, I, I've done lots of speaking in the past, but I always feel like- Well, I'm not in control of that. I'd rather be doing something that I'm in control of that- Yeah I know my time is gonna repay me on. So like how do you make sure that- Mm you're, doing that in a way that is productive and efficient? Mm. I do have a few topics that I can recycle. Yeah. Not necessarily 100%, but- Yeah I'll record like a new intro specific to the event, and then I can, yeah, recycle the talk. So yeah, that's important. If it's a really awesome event that I know is going to be perfect fit, I'll record something brand new. Yeah. But, yeah, I wouldn't say I'm spending hours and hours, opportunities. Usually- Yeah they pop up in communities that I'm a part of- Yeah or someone, drops my name, as an introduction, as in, "Nadine would be awesome too." Right. Yeah. So luckily it's, it's starting to shift more towards people reaching out to me, rather than me- And are you ever doing that in person, or does it tend to be online? Yeah, most things are online. I did my first panel speaking event in Sydney here. So Sydney's a bit funny. I don't know. There's not that much happening when it comes to business events, which is a bit of a shame. But, yes, I have only done one panel, speaking opportunity earlier this year. But yeah, a lot is, a lot is online, and then the complexity is too, the time zone difference. So, Yes. Yeah sometimes the live opportunities you can't be part of. Like one, one time I was super keen to host a live session for, Showit and their community. Yeah. And they were very rigid on time slot when it had to happen, so I actually got up at 2:00 AM. Because I was so keen. I'm like, "I want this logo on my website." yeah. and it was totally worth it, but, yeah, I'm like to get me up at 2:00 AM you have to be someone pretty special. I'm not sure you'd be getting the best of me at 2:00 AM, that's for sure. Oh, it, it was a bit rough, but anyway. So I, I want you to tell me about your Retention Games Summit. It's like The Hunger Games style event where the audience voted. So where did that come from- Mm and what did going interactive do that a normal summit couldn't for you? Yeah. So, if, for people who know me, I am all about out of the box, doing things unconventionally. So probably, again, going back to strength here, like I'm that strategic compared with creative, and when there's an opportunity to do something that is so overdone or, people have a certain expectation around in a way that disrupts the pattern, that is just, yeah, shaped in a way that people are paying attention to, I'm all for it. So I knew I wanted to run a virtual event, like a virtual summit style event, but- Yeah also working with... I've worked with, like one of the leading, coaches in that space who helps people run virtual summits, so I know there's a lot of same, same. People are following the same pattern, and, personally also I was getting rather fatigued of 50 sessions thrown at me that I consume. Yeah. I download a freebie, and I'm still none the wiser because they're so middle of the road. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I agree. That it's just such a waste of time, right? I'm quite jaded. And I just don't have the time or head space, and often I sign up and then don't consume anything. So I just wanted to make it interactive because I didn't want people to just, again, sign up, with the best intentions and not do anything. So I, yeah, came up with this competition style event where, competitors or contestants, as I called them, so the speakers could win prizes and, be rewarded for putting their best foot forward. Mm-hmm. And the attendees also could win prizes for voting for their favorite session. So it literally was, like the qualifying rounds, then it was, went down to top 10 contestant strategies. People again voted for their favorites, top three, and then there was an overall winner, and for every vote, people placed, they went in the running to win prizes. And yeah, the contestants were super invested, which was funny. when people, and all of a sudden there's this competitive streak coming out- and they're like posting and posting again, "I'm in the top 10, you need to vote for me." So it really started this beautiful interactive experience where everyone kept checking in, like every round they were curious to see who made it. I had a live leaderboard. Again, thanks Airtable. so people felt emotionally invested, and then once you had voted for someone, obviously you wanted them to do well. So yeah, it was just out of the box. people were... Everyone was having fun. I had daily live updates from the commentary box where, announced the, next round contestants and- It just felt like fun. And, Yeah the feedback just like that as well, so big on feedback as I, as we've explored. So I had a, survey after for attendees and contestants, and all of them were, just saying how cool it was. Just different and, how everyone felt part of something bigger, which is- Yeah very rare, right? Like, I don't know- the last time I attended something where I felt invested. Yeah, completely. No, I, I- Mm. It's another example of originality in the era of same, same, same- Mm that stands out- Exactly and feels different to people. So now I'm just thinking a bit more about your, funnel, and I know that's a, a term that, I'm using loosely there because it's not one word. Yeah. But but can you help me trace it end to end? So I know you've got the survey builder freebie, and we'll include the link to that in the show notes. Mm-hmm. Because I've used it, and I thought it was fab. And then there's your high touch membership, and then there's a behavior driven evergreen funnel. Like, how do all the pieces feed each other? Mm. And what's the philosophy behind- Yeah, AI helps me take action but doesn't replace me. Yeah. Yeah, so I, as I said, I'm big on the subscriber, so you- Yeah who took the survey and is now on my list, deciding your own path. So I have weekly emails that go out that touch on certain things. I have evergreen emails in case I go on holidays or I'm not available or- Yeah heavens forbid, I fall ill. So there's things happening in the background at all times that don't necessarily push a hard sell, but they, have trigger links within them. Mm-hmm. So I am huge on data, paying attention to how you engage with my content, and based on the signals that you're sending me and what you're engaging with in those emails that are going out, I- Yeah might decide to add you to a nurture sequence, for example. So if, you click on my Retention Lab sales page six times, that's a pretty good indication that something, you're interested, you are checking it out. Something might be missing from that bigger picture for you to actually decide to join. Yeah. so yeah, I might add you into that funnel. Again, inside the funnel I'll track how you're engaging with that. Potentially, if you're sending me the right signals, I might even send you a personal video- Mm-hmm to just reach out, start a conversation, seeing whether there's anything I can help you with. If you don't buy, totally okay. I'll just add you back into my regular programming, and that's the process I like to embrace in my business. So rather than constantly selling the same thing to everyone, I let you tell me or send me signals that you're- Yeah interested in something, and then I'll hopefully give you the information to decide whether now's the right time or maybe not, which is fine, and give you that push, and that's worked really well for me, and it, again, feeds into that retention piece. So, your, like, your business changes, your goals change, so what better way to let you decide, Yeah if you buy. Like, just let you decide where you go down, like, which path you go down and what, what you receive. yeah, it's just- It's a feelgood way to sell, I feel. Like, I don't feel like I'm constantly selling at you. I just know- Yeah there's things happening in the background. Obviously they need to be set up, but once they're set up they just work beautifully and, then I tweak them obviously based on new, new things, new feedback, new- Yeah custom modules. So it's never 100% done, but, yeah, I feel like you can always keep an eye on how, how it's working, what's not working, and then improve it as you go along. And in terms of your behavior driven evergreen funnel, are you... Like, what, what are the tools that actually go into that? Are you on Kit? Mm-hmm how- I'm, I'm Drip. Sorry. Oh, on Drip. Yeah, I used to use Drip. Drip. Yeah, Drip is amazing. Like, I've played with Kit, like a lot of my clients are, are on Kit, and Kit's great, but Drip, because it's primarily built on, originally built for e-com brands- Mm-hmm. Yeah they have just such good functionality to have, like, super easy tracking of custom events where you count in a custom- Yeah field how many times people click on a sales page. Yeah. The, conditional content is awesome, so I can target you with spec- specific extra things in an email, if you've sent me certain signals that everyone else doesn't see. Yeah. So it's- Yeah it makes it super easy. Yeah. But, yeah, you need to be intentional. That's the thing. I feel a lot of business owners have the right ideas, but then they're- Mm not having the right intentions before they put it in place. Yeah. And they try to add in, add in later. And I think the era of just, selling to people in any capacity- Mm regardless of what kind of brand you are, B2C, B2B, the era of just selling at people just doesn't, doesn't work anymore. One of my favorite things to... And I, I also just hate sending people emails and then not having any engagement, not knowing do you like this? Mm. Was this helpful? Like, just having opens and, let's face it, they don't mean that much, or clicks, or purchase- Yeah metrics to be able to understand and, and build off of. So one of the things we've started adding in, to the end of every sell email that's not just content, is driving towards a product, is a thing to say, "Look, e- message me back with any questions- Mm or something specific." So right now, we are in a kind of launch for, it's really a development of a new product that I'm working on, so we're giving people early access to that in a kind of launch format. But it's, it's not a high-stress launch. It's not something that I'm- Yeah hanging my hat on. But at the same time, like, revenue-wise, But at the same time, it's really important to be getting feedback data as we move through it. So o- one of the emails I sent out was, "Reply to me. I've got a limited amount of time to answer a few of these, but reply to me with who you serve and who your favorite customer is, and I will then build a list for you on Sales Navigator of ex- like, named prospects of who I would approach." Mm. And it has been, it's been so much fun for me to do. Like, each- Mm Loom video that I send in return, is, directly to that person. Does take me about 15 minutes to do, and there's been maybe, like, 20 of them. But the in- the data from that, the understanding of who those clients are, what... 'Cause a lot of these people are coming through ads. Yeah. So we don't have visibility in the same way on who they are. but learning more about the businesses, learning more about the, the, the types of people they're targeting, the stage of business they're at, their ability to be able to purchase or move fast is... I'm learning stuff at the same time as giving them something of incredible value, because the- Mm list building on its own is normally something that would sell significant price on a one-to-one basis. But yeah, it's this idea of, like, you, you're not just sitting there and listening to me sell something. I'm gonna demonstrate to you on a one-to-one basis if you take the time to reply to me. And it is hard to scale that kind of stuff. there are ways. Mm but I think, yet again, it's an example of AI has sped up some of these other things, so I can spend more one-to-one time with you, supporting you on the process of becoming, hopefully, a client. But if you don't, great. I'm hoping you get- Mm something of value out of it. so yeah, I'm playing around with that personalized, in-the-moment response with... embedded within evergreen sequences right now. Mm-hmm. And trying to understand, like, how much of my time I need to section off in order to get that Yeah, in the moment, at the same time as being evergreen is, is the best way- Yeah to describe it. yeah, and I think it does stand out because not many people are doing that. But, Mm yeah, I was curious about other people who have evergreen, funnels and- Yeah how they manage that while still being relevant and, yeah, feel comfortable about it as well. So yeah, anyhow, I just went off on one. No, I love it. What about that? I, I just, I love how, intentional you are about, the unscalable experiences and, like I feel when you're automating and evergreening things, often people think, we need to automate everything. So- Yeah yeah, I totally think there's definitely space for unscalable aspects in evergreen funnels. so like automate the automatable- Yeah the scalable, go for it. I've done that. Like, mom of three, one woman show, I just don't have the time to, to do certain things. But- Yeah I know exactly where me, recording a video, or me hitting reply to an email, or opening a conversation makes a real difference. And, yeah, it's again, being discerning, knowing what your audience needs at which point, and what's worth your, your while. And- Yeah in your instance, I'm sure it's gonna pay back all the conversations you're having. Yeah. I find it- Even if it's not now, long term. Yeah. For sure. absolutely. Long term, yeah. A couple of the replies have been, "Oh my goodness, that was, that was so helpful." Mm. "I am not able to work with you right now, but here's-" Mm "the way in which I wanna work with you in the future." And yes, not all of those people will come back, but that is somebody who has, who is genuinely grateful, who's given me more circumstances about where they are, who I'm now front of mind with in a way that cuts through everybody else who's coming into their inbox. So yeah- Yeah I do think it's, it's genuinely helpful, and I would say as well, you said about being intentional. I think as you were speaking, I was just thinking to myself, I think the way I approach it is if I'm automating this, if I'm evergreening this, if I'm, making something else more simple, if I'm using AI for this, what is it allowing me to do instead? And sometimes that might be going to my kid's sports day, right? But there are other times- Mm where it will be, being able to engage with somebody one-to-one in what is technically a lower price product sales process, which wouldn't have been feasible before. So yeah. Yeah. yeah. Always thinking about what it's bringing to you and your clients, both, you in work and in your personal life as well. Yeah but not being afraid automation, of AI. so what... Mm Listen, Nadine, I wanna be respectful of your time. Where, who should come and find you and where should they go? so you can, ideally track me down on my website. I think that's the best spot. you get a- And we'll put that in the show notes, yeah. Yeah. You get a pretty good idea of, my approach to things. Definitely check out the audience survey builder, particularly if you're in the 36% of people who have- who I've surveyed in my, State of the Customer Report recently, who said they haven't ever, like, have never surveyed their audience, or more than a year ago. Mm-hmm. So if that's you, no shame, but make sure you grab those questions and have a look how you can package them and get them off to your, to your audience. And, while you're there, definitely check out the State of the Customer Report. It is, my yearly big survey that, surveys the online business space from- Yeah two perspectives. So what everyone answers, both from a business owner perspective and then I flip the coin and they answer as someone who buys products, joins memberships, masterminds- Yeah in the online business space. And the gaps and opportunities that came from that are pretty mind-blowing. And if you embrace them, you can definitely make them your unfair advantage in the online space. Mm. So, yeah. I'm gonna go check that out. I'm gonna go check that out. One final question for you, Nadine, before you go- Mm-hmm which I didn't ask earlier, is what are the most effective ways you've found of incentivizing people to answer a survey? Mm. I definitely believe incentivizing to respond, works and blows up your response rate, because we're all time poor. So what has worked really well for my clients is usually giving away a nice juicy prize that is highly relevant and highly irresistible for the audience. So for example, if you have a lot of female business owners as your demographic, like Lululemon, I don't know, is that- yeah Like, the active wear brand. That's worked really well, like a gift voucher. it works because it's, global. Or, some clients also have donated to the respondent's charity of choice. Mm. So that could be something. Again, it, have a think about what aligns with your audience and- Yeah your business and your beliefs. So there's lots and lots of different ways, and it doesn't have to break the bank, but it definitely pays off to incentivize people, because it just makes them pay attention. Absolutely. Okay, great. Mm-hmm. to get your feedback on that. Okay, Nadine, well, we will include all of your notes in the, in the show notes here, all of your links, rather. I know, like I mentioned, the, the survey builder, particularly definitely one for everyone to check out, whether you, or whether or not you've done customer listening before. and yeah, thank you so much for your time today. Mm. I know it's late where you are, so thank you for joining us. Thanks so much for having me, Charlotte.