Episode #1: Neuroinclusion: A Global Conversation and Movement with Pasha Marlowe and Atif Choudhury

Join hosts and global neurodiversity speakers Pasha Marlowe and Atif Choudhury for a uniquely expansive, deeply human, and hopeful conversation about neuroinclusion and the state of humanity. This podcast, Neuroinclusion: Across the Pond and Beyond, will explore neurodiversity from a global, cultural, and systemic lens. Pasha and Atif will discuss neuroinclusion in the workplace, but also the power and relational dynamics of neuroinclusion in homes and communities. Conversations will weave together current events and politics, workplace trends, accessibility, power and societal dynamics, and the mental health of humanity at large. 

Pasha Marlowe (she/her), CEO of Neurobelonging and therapist/coach for over 30 years, specializes in working with neurodivergent individuals, couples, and groups and has expanded her practice to include keynotes, webinars, and trainings for global leaders and organizations who want to adopt neurodiversity-affirming programs and practices. She is the author of "Creating Cultures of Neuroinclusion". She is a mother to three adult children and lives in Maine, USA.

Atif Choudhury (he/him), CEO of Calling All Minds and co-founder of Zaytoun CIC, is an award-wining social entrepreneur with a background in economic justice and disabiity inclusion.  He is an adviser to the WHO rapid assitive technologies board and is a trustee for Disability Rights UK. He is a global neurodiversity speaker who also offers corporate and leadership training. He is the father of two young children and lives just outside of London, UK. 

To reach Pasha or Atif for feedback, questions, or to request a guest appearance on the podcast, contact us at pasha@pashamarlowe.com or atif@callingallminds.com. 

You can also find more information on their websites pashamarlowe.com and callingallminds.com or follow them on Linkedin. 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:02

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Neuro inclusion Across the Pond and Beyond podcast. Very first episode happens to be during Neurodiversity Celebration Week 2026. And I'm amu one of the hosts, Pasha Marlowe, here with Atif Choudhury. And u we are thrilled to bring you an expansive conversation about neuroinclusion. U We're gonna explain to you why we started this podcast, why we think it's important, what our hopes, our intentions are in it, and and why now. And it would be great to start with maybe how how this came to be, how we met Atif. Do you want to to tell everyone how we met and how this all began?

Speaker 0:51

U Yeah, maybe you tell it first, though, because I think you'd I've I'd like to hear how you did it.

Speaker 1 0:56

Sure, sure. Well, my recollection is it was during the first international neurodiversity conference, , which was located in Abu Dhabi u Anna, and I'm gonna forget her last name, um, but she developed this conference, and I believe you were the keynote. And I, like many others, was watching and listening to the keynote while crying and holding on to my heart, realizing that finally uh somebody is talking about the conversation of neurodiversity from a not just a global lens, but a very heart-centered, compassionate lens. And I resonated with it so much. And I also spoke at the conference, I spoke about neuroinclusion and mental health and and well-being um because that's my lens as a as a therapist. And uh yeah, and then I reached out to you because I knew I just needed to be friends with you, and then I was thrilled to be able to collaborate with you as well.

Speaker 2:00

Oh, bless you, bless you. Yeah, I'm gonna add to that is um, yeah, it was a great conference, and I really appreciate the sentiment and the kind words. But what got me was you sent me a text saying, which would have made sense time zone, it was like two in the morning. You would I was like, my lord, that's commitment. Do you know? I mean, um I'm saying some nice things, but they're not that nice. And so to sit to tune in from two in the morning, I was like, whoa, that's that's love. And and then you sent this really lovely message, it really, really moved me. And I just felt, okay, this is good, because there are a lot of things that we get to say are nice, and there's a lot of affirmations that we seek out, and and and hopefully and with gratitude we find. But it's it's rare that I get something that I think, wow, this really has uh a sense of somebody who knows my heart really well, and I and I meant that. And and it's clumsy when we're afraid to use language that make make us uh uh make us feel vulnerable or or make us feel like we're defining ourselves uh too quickly, or or but I really meant it. And I was like, wow, okay. And so I decided that um yeah, I want to know you more. And and then the speed of this got me thinking about how rare our conversations are.

unknown 3:20

Yes.

Speaker 3:21

And I thought, okay, well, let's do a podcast. So then guess that's what we're gonna do. So you as an audience watching, you're going to hear many things from a US perspective and a UK one, for sure. Because it's across the pond and beyond. But the beyond bit really matters. Very much. It really matters because we're gonna talk a lot about what our hopes are for Pasha's hopes for this and my hopes for this conversation, where it grows, can it be a global conversation with sincerity? I absolutely believe it can. And can we really realign Eurodiversity into a space and I'm gonna pause here, but into a space that recognizes its role in power in in in in really reclaiming what we live in our hearts and hopes for the world, the way we learn things, the way we sometimes don't learn things, um, the way we struggle to fit in, how often we mask, and whether that is at times bearable. And sometimes I guess it is, because we're hopefully still here. But for some people it's not bearable, and we lose them. So neurodiversity to me is very much about power and it is about participation. It's more of those things for me than it is about labels.

Speaker 1 4:37

Yes.

Speaker 4:38

But I live in a world with labels, I live in a world that's seems to be increasingly obsessed with them. So this is the podcast we're in, and and I'm looking forward to sharing with passion and learning with passion and and and relearning and unlearning, you know. So that was a leaf of there. But back to you, Father.

Speaker 1 4:58

I agree that that's where the conversation conversation needs to go beyond labels, even though we work within systems that sometimes require labels and diagnoses. Certainly for me as a therapist throughout the years working within the pathology paradigm, I needed to work with labels and diagnoses. But I think the conversation, if far more importantly, needs to expand beyond that to, like you're saying, the power uh structures and participation. But also, if I were to think about what all this comes down to for me, is inherent worth. And for people to recognize no matter their functioning style, um, no matter who they are, where they are in the world or what they do or what quote unquote, you know, contribution or value they bring to society, they're they're inherently worthy because they're human and existing. And so I often, when I remind myself of why I do this work, is to is to share that uh with people and to reiterate it to myself and any person I talk to. Um for so for me, that's a lot at the root of what it means to me. Because I think you and I, when we first talked, were very much wanting to expand the conversation of neurodiversity beyond the narrative that it's about brains, different brains or different cognitive styles, which it is, but also it's a diversity of nervous systems and body minds and functioning styles. And and we embody our our neurodiversity, our neurodivergence, perhaps. And so it really is far beyond our brains and how we think, it's also how we move and how we learn and how we communicate and socialize and love. Yeah, and adapt as well.

Speaker 6:42

And adapt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, brilliantly. I I love it. I honestly. And look, I'm just a guy who's been doing this for 30 years in a I'll I'll let's explain a little bit about the UK and US models and how they compare and maybe contrast, but but I look at the UK and I have seen a change. When I started doing this work 30 years ago, I guess, really, I would go to people's homes. It's very unusual. The American concept doesn't have this as well. So, this is in itself is probably worth talking about. And Pasha have not and I discussed this. But my work was to train in assistive technology for students going home to home. And I would did this for 10 years. For 10 years, I would travel. I mean, folks listening from America, I hope you get a sense of geography, but I would basically go from from Oxford to Folkestone, which is a lot of land, it's a lot of space. Never in mind London itself. And I didn't mind those jobs, I didn't mind if they were far away. It gave me thinking time on the train. And I'd go on a train and maybe travel for two and two and a half, maybe three hours to someone's home. And then I would teach them mind mapping software or or or or or voice input technology and things like this. Why am I saying this? Is because it is unusual if you can value it. It is also the best job in the world if you can value it. It's also the worst job in the world if you don't value it. Like anything, like good counseling really. Um but I would see for a person's home who struggles to read books, what books make it to this bookshelf? You know? A person who struggles to communicate what they really want in the world. What are the cues that they've surrounded themselves around? This is very different from being in a clinician place or in even in a university setting or an assessment center. I'm in the most sacred place on earth. I really am. I'm in the one place where a person says, Do not judge me. This is my home, or in many cases, this is actually my bedroom, because that's their students, you know. So you're really dealing with something sacred, and you're building up a relationship over three or four days, not consecutively, but spread out perhaps over weeks and weeks and weeks. But you're seeing that kinship and you're seeing a lot of healing. This is unusual because America doesn't have this model for that in itself, but the UK does, is called a disabled students allowance. Pre-COVID and pre-the online world, pre-smartphones actually, I would go to people's homes. And I've probably trained thousands of people and I can remember the feelings of every one of them in lots of ways. And and I'd always think it was strange because I'm not a techie, although I do calling all minds, which is the company I should talk about later on, or something is very mold in technologies. But I'm not a techie. I was just very moved by what tools can help people and what tools can really liberate people, especially those who may never get a diagnosis or never never feel safe in one. And that's what took me to the work I do now. That evolution of being in people's homes. It was a space where you learn not just what people tell you, but how they tell you, and you're learning for weeks and weeks in, as I said, the most naked place.

Speaker 1 10:11

Yes.

Speaker 10:12

They could be. This is their home. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 10:16

It does. It's so interesting because as a family therapist, I used to travel to people's homes because it's the system that's quite important. It's not just the individual, it's the systems they live within, the relationships, the environments they live within, that very much informs some of the uh the challenges they might have. And and then when because we're we're pre-computers, and so then computers came on the scene, and all of a sudden people were, you know, not going to people's homes anymore. We were now, especially since uh 2020, all in mind. And still when I work with people, they're in their homes typically having conversations with me, and I noticed how vulnerable it is uh for so many to have this um um experience of somebody being in their home talking to them about their most vulnerable uh feelings and experiences and relationships. So I always see it as quite a an honor to be with somebody when when I'm in the presence of them in their home or even just on online when I'm speaking with somebody. Like right now, I'm in my home. So you see my, well, you don't see my clutter, but you see, you know, a lot of the the art and books that make sense and you know are important to me. And I see I see your beautiful um background.

Speaker 11:37

This is my office. I do my best work. Um, it's my day bed. It's like I sleep on it all the time. Yes, I love it. I love it. I know that when I'm a bit um I do a lot of walking barefoot, um, particularly in the mornings with my dog. Nice. And and it's took me time. I really recommend it for everybody, and I would I always think I should do a little blog on it, but it's a process. The process is you're very self-conscious, and the process is you're feeling really self-judgmental, and you're then you see strangers and you think they're judging you, and you've got all of that, but then eventually they start to drift away, yes, and then you just realize actually none of them matter, and then you do it again and again, and eventually you don't even see them anymore. Do you know? Nice, nice. But the biggest advice I can give is to leave your phone at home, you know.

Speaker 1 12:26

That is good advice. It is good advice. It's interesting because what you're speaking to partially is the um, you know, other people's judgments and other people's opinions of us. And I think when we talk about neurodiversity and neuroinclusion, a lot of it is breaking down the the stigma, the bias, the the judgments and the expectations uh we have of other people that are all quite subjective. And um, you know, and so I I think one of the reasons why I'm really glad we're having this conversation is to help people learn and unlearn and unlearn what they've been taught about what is professional or what is appropriate um in the workplace and beyond. I I know that this conversation is not just going to be about the workplace, but I do know also people are probably listening about neuroinclusion in the workplace. And I think what what works in the workplace also works elsewhere. In the in the work that you did, working with people in the home, that can translate to working with people in the workplace. Similarly, for me, working with families, you know, relationships in the families are similar to relationships at work. So I love that the conversation will integrate um our lived experiences, but also different systems.

Speaker 13:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:44

Workplace, community.

Speaker 13:46

Um, I actually I want to add to that. Something that is important is again, this is slightly different because I think uh the us um the US, you have more public holidays, but you have less holidays, way less. I mean, you have the least holidays in the world, I think, right? I mean, and and even when I notice that my family, a lot of my family are American, so I just should say that as well. And I I think it's really different how they look at their freedom in the workplace. Freedom is a really big word to use in an American context as well. But I just want to part something. In truth, we spend more time with our workers, our colleagues, our jobs than we do with our family. We spend more time in that place than we do with our loved ones or our hobbies. And of course we try to separate them as best we can. But work is deeply personal if you're lucky. If you're lucky, it's deeply personal. Um because it's an exercise of your values, you know, that you choose to do. My challenge is that when we think about hidden differences or labels or barriers or neurodiversity sometimes we separate them from the work. And my question is, oh, is it because we're masking at work? Or is it because we're not used to thinking of it outside of work? Because largely we're only now just thinking about it in work at all. Um So I guess those who are listening, especially if you're from a HR point of view or human resources point of view, or I would really love us all as we go through the future podcast of this, that we come into this space not just as colleagues or workers or people really intrigued on the conversation, but we also go in this space because we're somebody's aunt or uncle. Yes. You know, that we're maybe somebody's mother or father. But we are thinking about this as our civic and social responsibility.

Speaker 1 15:45

Yes.

Speaker 15:46

And can we understand that beyond labels? That's a question, I guess for maybe rhetorically, but for both of us and the audience. Do you think, Asha, we can get to a place without labels?

Speaker 1 15:56

I do. I do. I very much believe that labels aside, we're talking about differences, different ways to function. I think it's going to be more challenging in the workplace because there's societal rules and structures and norms and expectations that I think we're starting to challenge. And I believe people do mask more in the workplace. There's a lot at stake, you know, financially speaking, socially. Uh, and it's not safe to unmask at work, depending on where you are and who you work with. I also talk to people who are not able to unmask at home. Uh, so there it's a constant exhaustion of not feeling safe in their own body or in their own space. Uh, but I do believe we're gonna be able to work beyond labels as we continue to challenge the pathology paradigm, to lean into the neurodiversity paradigm, to recognize how much these rules of norms that we live under are subjective and a lot of them based in ableism, racism, white supremacy, colonialism, capitalism. That's gonna that'll be a whole other podcast episode. Like, where did, you know, where did these norms come from? But I but I think people are starting to challenge them. And I think younger generations are feeling very much in their nervous system not aligned with neuronormativity and normative standards. And the more people feel misaligned, the more they'll identify as neurodivergent or different or disabled or whoever, whatever their identity is. I think we'll see that more and more. I think we'll see it growing, and more and more people will be rejecting these.

Speaker 17:48

I I love this. This is such a there's so much off the springboard of that as well. Um, I'm just gonna hold a space. So there's again, it's exciting, right? This is the very first podcast, you know, and when and you think just if you think about, I know my mind's already gone there, of just the last two minutes of what Pasha said. There's a whole series, just a really great series, about participation, about labels, about whether we can build in universal design and universal design learning. Can we build an anticipatory welcome to a generation of people that are just expecting it? And what happens when they don't get it? You know? Um and we're gonna touch on in this podcast for a little bit on on the question about can we get there in the current climate that we're in? Because, yes, I would say very true, not just to my hopes and aspirations, but also I suppose to my life's work that I believe we can get there. But we're watching some really powerful forces in the world that are playing with identity politics to a certain extent, which is causing a lot of pain in people's hearts. It's something that I am uh just for the audience, I'm 52 years old, and we I'm watching identity politics in a way that perhaps hasn't been around for a long time. But is it because it is new? A question or is it because it's been suppressed? A question, you know? Or is it because people are using information in a way that we never used before? And finding a sense of identity and perhaps tribalism and even a space to put that pain. And if so, okay. But are we reinforcing pain by doing it? Or are we berthing something really great through this process? Yes, it's messy. But are we berthing something that we need? It's not something that we can easily answer, but we can discuss it.

Speaker 2 19:57

Absolutely.

Speaker 19:58

But Pasha, I want to ask you just for the audience as well. You you use the word um paradigm and particularly in pathology paradigm. Just for those who may not have heard that before, what does that mean for you?

Speaker 1 20:11

So the pathology paradigm basically says anyone who is different from society's idea of what is normal, quote unquote normal, quote unquote ideal, is disordered, these are all terms I don't love, disordered, deficient, um broken, uh, a problem to be fixed. Whereas the neurodiversity paradigm states there is no normal. And rather than wanting individuals to change and adapt to fit into societal norms, rather, how can we fix society and change some of these systems and structures to accommodate all functioning styles? Um, so it is it is a big shift, paradigm shift, um, that is challenging because so many systems within the pathology paradigm, such as therapists, psychiatrists, doctors, still do diagnose people with something that ends in disorder because they're different from the standards and norms. One of the reasons why I stepped away from any diagnoses myself or diagnostic uh tools myself, but we still do work in that system that does help people get services and medication and insurance. And so we're in this messy middle where we're still in the pathology paradigm, shifting to the neurodiversity paradigm. But it feels quite dangerous and sometimes taboo to introduce this new paradigm to people who are in those systems. But I do believe that that we're in a place where we are shifting the paradigm and are challenging those old structures. Because it's not working. It's not working in the workplace. It's not working in the home place. It's not working in communities. You know, we're we're becoming less and less well as a whole. And so I think there is a shift that's happening.

Speaker 22:17

I just want to those listening. So Apache's written an amazing book on this. Yeah. And I really, really, she's being really modest, but you guys should get it. It's about creating cultures of neuroinclusion. And I hope you all get a chance to look at that and buy it. I want to ask you this then. So in the UK, and this is really going back to the heart of this conversation, what is what is across the pond? We in the UK they often use the medical model. This the medical model says what's wrong with you. Yes. And maybe what you're dealing with at times. But as a social model, and especially a biosocial model, because there is biological implications, you know, pain management. When you're in pain, you can't really say love me, love my pain, you know. But what you can say is understand my reality. Understand my barriers. Understand these barriers. You know? And so a biosocial model isn't dealing with what's right or wrong with you, but rather what barriers you are facing.

Speaker 1 23:21

Yes.

Speaker 23:22

And who collectively is responsible for that? Well, that's the civil society you're in. It's the people that make legislations and laws, it's the people that can be part of policy power and change. So when I started this work back in um even in the times when I'd go to people's homes, I have a diagnosis of a Pacific learning difficulty. And I think about a couple things, and I'm gonna bring us very relevantly to something that happened in America yesterday. Um but I I in my pain as a child and certainly as a teenager, to get a diagnosis with what we call an SPLD. And I don't think you call it SPLD in the US state, right?

Speaker 1 24:06

What does that stand for?

Speaker 24:07

Yeah, it's great. So SPLD is Pacific Learning Difficulty rather than global learning difficulty.

Speaker 2 24:14

Okay.

Speaker 24:15

So a Pacific Learning was what we'd call a spiky profile in the UK. So you have this good sort of and this is medical model language, right? So when I do in this podcast move towards medical model language, or if Pasha moves to pathology language, we'll probably say it. So it's clear. So because it it speaks to what we are trying to build upon and to make it better, yes, but there's something about where we might go with this work, which I suspect it will, which if we don't, then a generation after us definitely will. But you might not work with a broken model to make it better. Yes, it may just reject the model altogether. And that's that you know, folks, it's worth hanging on to this podcast just to see to that if we get to that bit. Right. So if I think about that, then I'm from a community that is already dealing with lots of stuff, be it through race, from migration, through trauma, from shame. So it's not in my interest to get a piece of paper that says I've got a Pacific learning difficulty. You can do many things, but that is not one you want to have. It's just not. So when you look at people and say, Do you really want to queue up for that piece of paper? No. What do you want then? I want to be welcomed. Okay. What does that mean? Well, in some ways you can say, I don't really even know yet. But I know it's not this. Now if people can just sit with that and go, okay, it's alright, you don't know. You're gonna find out. But we're not gonna find out at all if you're not safe. So language really matters here.

Speaker 2 26:03

Yes.

Speaker 26:03

So the UK moves and it still uses SPOD. A spiky profile is when somebody has uh a very high skill set. So even on a on a dyslexia scoring, I which is really lovely for me to read, but it it's it's my verbal reasoning is in the top two percent of the country. Uh if you ask me to um you know, even organize a meeting without double clashing it or things, that's gonna happen. I'm going to just administration spelling is not a thing that I do, right? And so um I've set up a company with friends in Palestine, and we've I navigated getting doctors across the Gaza Strip. But I will I certainly did it plenty of times, send my daughter to school without her lunchbox when she was really small. So these are things well essentially these are just human things. Yes. When we come to a spiky profile, what we have is something that is really, really high in one person, in the same person, and very low in the other person. So there's a big spike.

Speaker 2 27:06

Yes.

Speaker 27:07

Now that language can change because we can move away from deficit language, and we're moving more into neurodiversity, which is true. And we're using less and less in the UK of SPLD, but it's there. In truth, folks, listening, you have to show how broken you are in order to get support in order to feel welcomed. This is a model that cannot work.

Speaker 2 27:33

Yeah.

unknown 27:34

Yeah.

Speaker 27:34

In the US, I'm curious, but I feel you've got more of a deficit disorder model. This is controversial, but we're going to really get to this. Yeah. I think that the US has more of a deficit disorder narrative than the UK does even now.

Speaker 1 27:50

Yes. To get services, one would need to almost prove their struggle, their suffering, uh, their disability through an assessment or a diagnosis, which, as we know, intersects with privilege, just the opportunity, the money, the wait time to get a diagnosis or be safe disclosing. Um, for some people, the assessment offers services. For some, it offers validation of experience, and for some it connects them to resources. But in my country right now, unfortunately, an assessment, for example, of autism is dangerous for some. Andor, I know you want to talk about what uh Trump says, so I'll let you do that uh in a moment. But I will say that the narrative is that um that if you do not have documentation or paperwork or proof of a disability, then you're less likely to get accommodations. And and part of the work that I do is is first of all, the the privilege wrapped up in getting a diagnosis or disclosing, but also and early access to care and all of that. Also, why do we need to prove anything to have our needs met in school, in the workplace? Why cannot the conversation be about needs and preferences on a human level, a reciprocal conversation, not this conversation of from a status of power and hierarchy? Um yeah, that's the direction I would love to go.

Speaker 29:29

That's the direction we're going to go. So so okay, so in the UK, I'll I'll just we're coming to the end of this very first one, but I want to say in the UK, if I was taking away a strong contrast, we have the Equalities Act here. And the Equalities Act is about barriers. It is actually an act we used to have in 1995 what was called the DDA, the Disability Discrimination Act. So if you have going back to that medical model or pathology model, if you have a disability protected one, then it is legal to discriminate in particular ways. But you have to prove you have that disability.

Speaker 1 30:06

Yes. Same with ADA here.

Speaker 30:08

Yeah, the ADA is very much so. Now, in the UK, we've moved away from that model into a biosocial model in legislation. Yes, it's not perfect because most companies in this country still act as if it's the DDA that governs them, or in your case the ADA. But it's actually we have the Equalities Act, and the Equalities Act does two things that are very important for those listening. One is it requires leaders and organizations to anticipate. It's really enshrined in the Equalities Act to anticipate and have anticipated duties. That doesn't mean leaders should be psychic, but they can anticipate. There'll be real reasons why people won't tell them this.

Speaker 1 30:46

Yes.

Speaker 30:47

Second, is you're not it's not that you're not allowed to ask, but that's not the issue. The issue is you don't have to prove it.

Speaker 1 30:56

Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 30:57

This is really important, it's deeply liberating. You don't have to prove it. In the US, you do, you still have to prove a pathology model, a deficit model, as best I understand it.

Speaker 1 31:08

Yeah, mostly that's true. That's true. And the the anticipatory aspect, like the with inclusive design or universal design too, anticipating needs, being more proactive, rather than somebody asking for a transcript, for example, offer that rather than somebody asking for different sensory uh experiences at work, offer variety or choice or freedom.

Speaker 31:32

Um what we'll go into later on as we do our we'll share more of the work that we're doing here. Calling all minds, which is my organization, we have built a passport, an inclusion passport, which allows people to share their barriers. They don't even have to share the name of something. If they say, look, I've I like to have information in advance of meetings, that's great. They don't have to say because I'm autistic. It just doesn't matter. If someone says I use a screen reader, it does not matter why. If they want to say it, then great. But the culture has to be that the organization does the anticipatory duties rather than the individual doing the emotional labor.

Speaker 1 32:13

Yes. I love your passport program, and much like your passport program, I have a respect framework, and the respect framework is basically a reciprocal conversation between leadership and teams, which is something like how do you prefer to receive feedback? What are your preferences around communication? What are your support needs? No diagnosis or labeling or disclosure necessary to talk about needs and preferences. Similar.

Speaker 32:40

Brilliant. Look, this is this speaks to Harvey. And we're gonna do more of this. We're coming to the end, but I want to plant a seed. There are two seeds I may plant with with the audience and with Pasha.

Speaker 1 32:50

Are you gonna tell him what Trump said? Because I kind of cued that up that you were gonna tell me.

Speaker 32:53

Yes, yeah. Well, I okay, yeah, you did. I mean, Trump, okay, let's. I mean, you're in Maine. You are in Maine, farther away. For good or bad, he is it's embarrassing just the leader of the US world. I guess he's the most powerful leader in the world.

Speaker 1 33:11

Hard to imagine.

Speaker 33:12

Yeah, for hard to believe, right? But we are here, and and I always think, and we're thinking about across the pond, and I was jokingly said that when the US catches a cold, you know, the UK sneezes. Yeah. And and with that, I mean, and this is why we're called Across the Pond and Beyond. Yes. We are gonna do politics here, folks. It's going to be how neurodiversity shows up in our lives, the barriers that we face, but how it changes the way we feel about ourselves. Yes. And yesterday, regardless of whether it's celebration week or not, it's just powerful that it happened yesterday. It's powerful that Pasha and I planned this conversation across the bond and beyond. But yesterday Donald Trump referred to Gavin Newsom as not being intelligent because he has dyslexia. He said, Call it what you want, but I don't want a president with learning difficulties or learning disabilities. Now there's lots we can say about what dyslexia is or isn't. But what Trump has done is shame dyslexia, people with dyslexia, impacted by dyslexia, parents of children with dyslexia. And at the same time, we can all possibly agree that Trump is not much of an intellectual in many ways. And he even when he's trying to denounce Gavin Newsom, he refers to him as the president of America. Which has its own comedy element of here with the president of America referring to somebody else as the president of America while he's trying to make fun of them. You guys can watch that and we'll probably add this to the recording if we can. But I wanted to ask Pasha, do you feel this has consequences? And in what way?

Speaker 1 34:57

Yes, beyond dyslexia, you know, talking about people with learning differences not being able to be leaders is false. Talking about people with learning differences as lesser than, less intelligent, less valuable, less worthy to society is false. And so very dangerous. And I think anyone watching that or hearing that that um clip of Trump saying that the governor of California should never be president because he has dyslexia, not only hypocritical in all the ways you alluded to, but it anybody can look at that and then internalize their own their own differences and or their own disabilities. And I might add that in the history of America, um Biden had a stutter, Lincoln had depression, ADHD, James Madison, epilepsy, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Woodrow, Wilson, JFK, all ADHD and dyslexic. And good or bad president, effective or non-effective president or not, you know, most leaders that I talk to in uh globally, like in who lead organizations, have some form of lived experience with neurodivergence or disability or divergence from quote unquote norms, which is why they are where they are in leadership, because they think beyond norms. They're they're more expansive in their thinking. So I think it was a very unfortunate, uh, obviously inaccurate, but discriminatory and despicable comment that that he made. And he's holding on to whatever power he has with a thread by tearing other people down. It's that's how he stays feeling empowered by disempowering other people.

Speaker 36:52

Well, and we know this is the greatest act of cowardice, you know. And so, okay, so we're gonna wrap up here, but this is something I mean, I'm thinking about Eisenhower as well. He was a wheelchair user, I think, right? Um, from my memory. So one thing is we can look at great leadership, and I'm not sure I look at any American president in that way, particularly, but I am really at pains to say that people are this great in this world, and we owe a debt to differences and people's realities, not despite these things, but because of them. Yes, because the way they think differently, the way they feel differently, the way they see things differently, we have not done historically anything close to justice on women and women's differences and how they show up in the world and how they reach power or prevented from it. I'm gonna close from my side and invite Pasha to close after me. But I want to say one thing is that we are all neurodiverse. You know, it'd be a pity if we weren't, but we are. That's the beautiful thing. We are all neurodiverse, but we're not all marginalized because of it. And that's the work to do. How do we address that for those who are? This is a conversation about power, it's a conversation as Pasha's just said about Trump, about attitudes, and it's also a conversation about collective healing. Yeah, can we be a civil society that can collectively choose to unmask not just for those with labels or diagnostics or but rather those who just need to feel safe? We're gonna be talking about this for about six sessions and then see maybe there's an appetite to do more. But I'm looking forward to this. I'm really excited to have this time with Pasha and to share and contrast these stories. Uh but over to you and thank you for my side of listening in the space that we're creating here. Pasha, for you to close, if you will.

Speaker 1 38:40

Thank you. I'm just learning right here and now that it was six sessions. I I'm I'm picturing 600. We've so much to talk about. Um yes, I I I'm just delighted to be doing this with you, not only because you are across the pond, we could have a more, you know, uh global conversation. Um, but I believe these conversations are going to come back to humanity and heart and inherent worth and compassion. Um, and and I think those kind of conversations will sustain the neurodiversity movement and make neuroinclusion a possibility. I'm excited to continue to talk about power and position. In fact, even just neuroinclusion itself as a word or as a practice requires somebody in power to be the one who's including. So it's almost as if neuroinclusion, the goal of neuroinclusion is to not need neuroinclusion. You know what I mean? So, you know, that we would all just be because we are, um, not need to be included because we're already there. So I'm so excited to continue these conversations and I'm grateful for whoever's out there listening. Um, and we will welcome any any feedback. Um, we'd love to know if you have thoughts as to where you would like these conversations to go um and what you would want to learn and unlearn. And and then hopefully we'll bring guests on as we as we progress from around the world to expand these conversations further. So I'm excited about this.

Speaker 40:20

Me too. Me too. We're all just walking each other home, as they say. Um brilliant, Patrick. Thank you so much. And thank you for having this session, this time with me. It's a real joy in my life. And yeah, six sessions and maybe beyond. I mean, definitely I would love six sessions just with you, but we can get guests and get some rolling on there and brilliant. Let's do that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:38

Absolutely. Okay, I'm gonna push up, but you stay on. Okay, goodbye, everybody.