Episode #5: Drop the Disorder and Depathologize Neurodivergence

To honor Mental Health Awareness Month, Atif and Pasha explore the concepts of neurodivergence, mental health, and disability through the lens of the neurodiversity paradigm and the social model. 

There is a call to action to "Drop the D", removing disorder from our language, even as we are still navigating systems that use the pathology paradigm and medical model. 

Concepts such as intersectionality, identity, and social justice are also explored through a socio-political and cultural lens. 

*Note that while not all forms of neurodivergence are mental health conditions, all mental health conditions are forms of neurodivergence, as they diverge from neuronormativity. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hello, welcome back everybody to the Neuro Inclusion Conversations Across the Pond and Beyond Podcast. I'm Pasha Marlowe here with Atif Chattery. And today we're going to be talking about mental health and neurodivergence and neurodiversity. And in the context of it being May 2026, mental health awareness month in some parts of the world, mental health awareness week in some parts of the world. And so we wanted to make sure we have a discussion about mental health and neurodiversity. How are you, Atif?

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Pasha, I'm fine. Yeah, and everyone listening, I'm fine. Thank you very much. Yes, it's Mental Health Awareness Week in the UK. Yeah, I'm Atif Chowdhury. I like to think most of you folks know me, but if not, and you're tuning in for the first time, um, I'm the CEO of Calling All Minds and a long-term campaigner for what I like to call just healthy participation. Really, what that means is a world where, in my lifetime, it won't be achieved, but in my lifetime it's devoted to recognizing what does that look like? How do we get a world without barriers? Can we? Perhaps not in my lifetime, but certainly can I do enough for a generation after me? And are we here really to talk about people with neurodiversity, people with disabilities? Maybe, but I think we're much here to talk about disablement and how do we get to a space that recognizes the world, learns differently, thrives differently, and feels differently. Um, beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

And of course, you're in the UK and I'm in the US, and the cultural differences there will definitely bring up. And for those that don't know me, um, I am a global neuroinclusion speaker, but I've also been a mental health professional for 32 years now. And so it's interesting because I was trained as all therapists and psychologists and doctors and psychiatrists, at least in my country, are with the pathology paradigm, the medical model. And I've moved away from it consciously towards the neurodiversity paradigm and the social model. But it's such a fascinating dynamic to have to work within the systems of the pathology paradigm to get people the resources and sometimes the medication they need or the support that they need while thinking in the neurodiversity paradigm and acting in it as much as possible. It's so so we're in the bit of a messy middle right now, um, in that sense. Um but uh before coming on the call, we had talked about the DSM or the diagnostic statistics manual, which is kind of like the Bible of disorders. And unfortunately, every lived experience in this manual ends in disorder. And as a therapist, what I was required to do uh before I switched over to coaching because I just couldn't do it anymore, was listen to somebody's experience, even like let's say in trauma or in grief or in shame or anxiety. And I had to give them a diagnostic code in order to get insurance or or medication or continued resources. And they always ended in disorder. And that's subjective, like disordered according to who and what and what sense of order and who determined this. And so it it never felt aligned. Um, and yet I've I was working within it to try to help people in the best, you know, as to my capacity as best as I could. Um, and I think a lot of therapists and doctors and psychiatrists are are struggling with that right now. And in mental health awareness week, I think it's really important to name that even though our systems and societies often work within the pathology paradigm in the medical model, that we don't have to think about people that way or talk about people that way. So I never say ASD or autism spectrum disorder. I say autism. I never say bipolar disorder or grief disorder, for example. I just say bipolar or grief. It doesn't need, it doesn't need the pathology and the stigma behind absolutely culturally, socially, and humanely, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

But the system, this is really important, this is really the heart of this conversation. The system requires a deficit disorder in order to action for change. And that is true in the UK, and I think it's very much even more so true in the US. Um, that a deficit disorder becomes the legal imperative to then to act on something. Now, my challenge to you and I, and I think it's important that we challenge ourselves first, as well as the audience, and then uh superstructures around our audiences, the governments we have, and the medical model and the practitioners, of which so many practitioners also feel the same way as Pasha and I. So the provocation here is can we drop the disorder? I know that we can as individuals, and I'm enriched in my life of people who just say, Hell yeah, absolutely. But the system, the structures are still demanding a deficit. They're still saying, What's wrong with you? Yeah. What's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_02 5:43

I would love it if it turned to because we're not saying people don't have needs, we're not saying people don't experience disability and challenges. Disorder is more of a judgment. Needs, neutral, disability, neutral. And so, you know, if there's a learning disability, fine. If there's need, support needs, fine. But it's but I feel like that's the direction I would like things to go, is more this is your lived experience, these are your access support or sensory needs, this is your disability. And then, and then that's far more um humane, uh, and less stigmatizing and less pathologizing. Um, so I would I would love it if the whole system switched to a needs-based system.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, yeah, and ultimately that's a moment of truth, because that's actually what we truly have here: uh a civil society with the variations of human beings and human compassion. I would always said, and those of you who've listened to the podcast before will probably remember this, but I've always said that we all human experience is that we are all neurodiverse. It'd be honestly, it would be a shame if we weren't, but it's joyful to say when that we are. We are all neurodiverse, but we're not all marginalized because of this. Yes. So that's the word to do. Um, if I say from my own experience, I'm 52 now, and in my heart I knew I was dyslexic, 13. And in my heart, I was desperately scared to confront that. And I was very worried that if I do confront it, and it turns out I'm not. So what am I? You know, and what am I? Sounded very dark. Like I'm just not, I'm just not bright, I'm not served, I'm not intelligent. So those are the things that would go in the uh the minds of a young 13-year-old going through life. That's I'm not alone in that, 13 year old. Or we're looking at cases of self-harming in young teenagers, a sense of self-doubt and concern and care, and that's whether they deserve things. It was 29 before I got a diagnosis, but that's that's okay. That's okay. Um, I filmed about with fire and not so good as since then. But if I look at the piece of paper itself, that piece of paper says S P O D. That means Pacific Learning Difficulty. I'm a CEO, I'm fairly accomplished on a number of things. I actually have a piece of paper that says I have a specific learning difficulty. Now, my question to the room and the audience is brown folks, we've got other stuff to deal with. Do we want an extra thing that says you don't belong somewhere? Um, probably not. So when we look at neurodiversity, do we see healthy participation from marginalized communities? That's a question to the audience, but I would say no. And do you blame us for not showing up with labels and diagnostics if such labels are based on deficits and disorders?

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what to do. Yeah, diagnosis and disclosure both intersect with privilege, which is why we always bring intersectionality into the conversation. For many people, a diagnosis is validation and relief of oh, there is something going on that I couldn't pinpoint, and now there's a name. And then they can take that and for some people, you know, incorporate it into their identity, or for some people, just look for resources and community. But for a lot of people, there's a grieving. This is what I experience with my clients a lot. Um, and my ADHD and autism diagnosis didn't come until I was 50. So for 50 more than half my life, I assume, yeah, unless I'm very fortunate. I assumed I wasn't intelligent. I I just assumed I didn't get the rule book that everyone else got. And and my parents reiterated that unfortunately. And so getting the diagnosis for me was relieving, but I will say that the grieving of had anyone in my life, parents, teachers, otherwise, showed some uh awareness or or compassion or offered choice and agency rather than shame and judgment, how much less suffering I would have experienced. Um, and I also come from a lot of privilege. Like I wasn't um punished or um there weren't negative consequences for me, little quiet white girl with pigtails in the back of the room who just didn't understand. You know, I I wasn't punished. Um, I was, you know, excluded a lot socially. But we were talking about intersectionality and also the school-to-prison pipeline. And the more intersecting marginalized identities somebody has, the more there are consequences or punishments for the symptoms or the lived experiences or the innateness of a person. And that's where I think it's such a that we need to change that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, drug to disorder isn't so it isn't really important. The audience listens to it's not just a case of that there are well-meaning practitioners or really courageous ones, because that would be true in many places in systems, but the entire framework in which us as well-meaning practitioners work in is still disorder-based. And that's a hell of a thing to sit with, you know, to think. So, my invitation and my push is that we are both in our 50s. So we cannot achieve this really, perhaps in our lifetime. And that's a hell of a thing to think about as well. But we can plant the seeds, yes, you know, and we can look for so how does it work? Can I pass it? It's a question for you as a as a as a I guess as a practitioner and the work that you do. And a question for me back can we actually work famously said by Audrey Lords, the master's tools will not dismantle the master's house. Yes. This was really about famously said about racism and attractions of racism. The same applies here. Can we use an incomplete system and a deficit disorder system and tweak it and start to be better? Or do we rehaul it entirely?

SPEAKER_02 12:32

That is a big question, Auntie. Um, I mean, I bel I believe we will be navigating both for quite some time, right? I we want to work towards a strength-based approach and less deficit-based. And yet when I speak to businesses, their immediate question is, you know, what are the challenges of people who are neurodivergent who enter the workplace? I said, okay, let's let's switch that. Here are the strengths and and some of the um you know unique uh benefits of it. But also, then there's also that nuance of to not call it superpowers or to not exploit or to not deny challenges. Like we don't want to deny challenges or disabilities or needs, but we also want to be strength-based and not talk about deficits. So it's it's a quite a nuanced conversation where we are both, I think.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Well, let's put ourselves in the minds of a funder, for example, a government or a funder. And a funder says, I'm here to give money to those in need. You're telling me is it looks like this guy doesn't have needs. No, they have needs. Okay. Sounds like they have a lot of needs. Okay. So that's not a disorder? No, it's not a disorder. Okay, what is it? Let's go back to here. We are going to persuade that funder, give us these millions that are needed to get this right. Now, how do we do that?

SPEAKER_02 14:03

I talk about designing systems. I talk about assuming everybody has needs, doesn't matter if they identify as neurodivergent, disabled, neurotypical, doesn't matter. Everyone has access, support, and sensory needs. And then I say, how can we proactively, because you don't want to wait for a problem, wait for a conflict, wait for a lawsuit, wait for a um disclosure, even. Um rather, can we proactively create an environment that accommodates needs, assuming there will be, because there are.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, absolutely. So we're gonna go back to that, if I may, play with this slightly cynical finance person. Yeah, and you and I are building our business case, you know. So, okay, so it's fun, right? Because this person's saying, no, I'll give reasons to really spend this money. You're telling me there's a return on investment here financially. I think you know, folks listening, is we've gone past the awareness, right? We we I mean, um I want to articulate this really strongly. So you and I are Gen Xers, and we're the generation that would hear under a medical model, of course. One in ten is dyslexic, or one in ten is maybe autistic, or one in ten. And then you start looking at Gen Z, you know, Gen Z listening to this, you'll be like, hello, not one in ten. Like one in five. That's like great, you're one in five. But again, I would question all of these things. This is kind of medical model one in, right? It's the barriers, as as as um I would talk about in the UK context, but I talk the language of barriers that we address collectively, and Tasha talks about it in needs, um, and I think it's really beautiful that they can be interchanged. So then the alphas are coming in, you know, and the alphas are like, what's this one in five? Where is it? One in two, okay, so one in two. Okay, then we realize all along we've kind of been applying a little bit of a nonsense, right? Because one in what? It goes back to the needs or the barriers that people just learn differently. Yes, some can ask better than others, some facing childhood experiences that are traumatic. Yes, some are psychologically and socioeconomically locked out. Ever hearing a conversation about neurodiversity autism, ADHD, until perhaps sometimes they find out when they're in prison. And others have really powerful and tired and exhausted mothers who can fight for them early. So it's a bit of a neurodiversity. What is it? As I'm describing it, and I hope you're hearing it, it's a bit of a lottery. And that lottery is the social model.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah, what I understand, what I'm how I'm interpreting this is making sure we have a socioeconomic, political, and cultural lens in this, because one person's experience of dyslexia in the UK is different from another person's experience in in India. Uh, I think I've mentioned it if I haven't already. Uh, in some cultures, hearing voices is pathologized, stigmatized, discriminated against. In my country, certainly it is. It's seen as quite negative, it's seen as pathology and sometimes is labeled uh hearing voices schizophrenia. It's a problem. It's a problem to be solved, a problem to be treated. In indigenous cultures, it's seen as wisdom and not a problem. And and because our my culture, I'll just say in the US, because the US pathologizes and stigmatizes and discriminates um against hearing voices, people's the voices people hear are more negative. Like they internalize the negativity. Whereas somebody who's raised in a culture where that is revered or celebrated, then their experience is completely different. But they have the same form of neurodivergence.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Absolutely, absolutely. So at this point, we're we're not actually even, I guess, in some ways talking about neurodiversity, although we are. We're normally we're actually talking about what is welcomed, what is safe. Um, are hearing voices healthy? Interesting, right? It depends on the voice. That's right. Yeah, and then then then why not? But you're right, it's the environment around you that might dictate what the voice sounds like. Absolutely. What was once seen as shamans, the shamans would look for wisdom and and and I guess vision making is now frowned upon. Yeah, no, I know we've we've mentioned this before. And I'm kind of reminded that you're in the US, it's a country that essentially, as a country, whatever we decide those to be, there are social constructs, but there is a country, it's 250 years old. It found it remarkable to me that it's like it's only 250 years old. I thought it'd be longer than that. It made me chuckle a bit because before Europeans came, obviously there were other people and their traditions on that land and their stories and those voices and neurodiversity is completely wiped out of history until it has this little pocket here and there which might get mentioned somewhere in a little twelve somewhere. I think that's really important that we bring that because really is talking to our ancestors a genegative thing, that's what we determine it to be. And is it a disorder which causes brings us back to this conversation? It is mental health awareness. We are right that we it's a good example because it speaks to the values. I want to give you some hope here, folks. If you think about 20 years ago, there was no mental health agenda per se, right? Certainly 20 28 years ago. You could confidently say there's a health agenda if you're physically well or not physically well. There wasn't really a mental health agenda. Mental health meant you've been constitutionalist or you were schizophrenic and such and such. I'm from a time where we used to have a really bad mental health day, we'd call in work and may say may pretend to be physically sick. We do a fake voice, but actually I am unwell, but I'm mentally unwell. Um, but you couldn't say that. Now you can in certain places, would you say?

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yes. Yes, I believe it's there's far less stigma around it. I don't know anyone who's mentally well right now. I mean I don't understand like I don't know. If we're mentally well and fully regulated, I don't know if we're really listening to what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah, I would say that if I'm I know we talk about the politics and we're not shying away from that. I won't name I won't name the names.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

But they're not well either. to to uh to move beyond the b the orange man in the in the in the high tower. But I I think you're right. So you know wouldn't you have to be sociopathic to say you're well in a space of such disarray and and discomfort right now.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Avoidant at the very least.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah absolutely that's probably a fair way to look at it.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Very avoidant yeah I mean life is political right choices are political yeah it's interesting being political sorry I didn't mean it's okay I was just thinking about when people talk about mental health they almost talk about it synonymously as it's uh as mental illness it's like there is mental health like we can be mentally healthy and mentally well uh when people talk about who isn't mentally uh I don't love using mental illness but when people talk about that I always wonder you know is it a mental illness or disorder you're looking at or is it somebody who is poor and doesn't have resources and doesn't sleep doesn't even have a bed and and how could they how could they be well and why are we naming that disorder?

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Absolutely and then it brings us to because I really believe that the most disabling thing on earth is poverty. Yes it's about choices so or lack of them. So in this case is somebody not being perhaps homeless wouldn't that have a mental health consequence absolutely what I'm also reminded of is that I often think that we live in silos too often and we call them out at least I know definitely good practitioners do but we very rarely attack the foundations of them I know I'm using passionate language there of attacking but those silos pit good people's needs against other good people's needs. Yeah so we end up with what could look like the diversity olympics whose voice matters more and what's the moral panic of the day that says that matters more today than it did yesterday. And whether it matters more over other people it can be very divisive. And I also notice that and I I again I would really love listeners to challenge Pasha and I or just comment on it and just celebrate it I don't know but when we think about disabled people and disabled experiences barriers they face when it comes to particular I think physically disabled folks where it's not hidden they're very rarely involved in mental health conversations. As if being blind to have a disabling experience or being a wheelchair user having to cross more just to move around the city because you have to use taxis you have no choice and it has a higher cost of living which puts more pressure on your budget and your existence why would that not have a mental health impact when we talk about mental health awareness month those kind of stories they're not part of the conversation they're busy being in the disability conversation yes and and I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

I see that in the uh queer community the LGBTQIA community somebody will come in uh let's say a a transgender person and they'll say I'm struggling with anxiety and the doctor or therapist will say well obviously because you're trans. And they're like well also I have anxiety you know this isn't the only this isn't the only thing going on in my life. If I'm in a wheelchair I can still I can be depressed about many things other than it's just interesting how we often um you know put people like in that silo or in that box. And so yeah as a as a postmenopausal woman I can't tell you the amount of times I go into the doctor with I think very real valid um health issues. And oh my I would say 90% of the time it's you must be stressed or it's because you're menopausal. And then you know like tumors are missed or like you know like things like you know things that are missed because you get dismissed a lot. And so I think that's the experience of a lot of people who have any marginalized identity that is stigmatized uh because there's just this tunnel vision around it. And with disability I hear a lot of people in the disability world get um criticized if they use any money uh that they've earned or received uh to have pleasure or leisure or fun or a vacation like oh are you using government money for that car wow that's that's that's that's that that's quite common in the US like they don't deserve it or like the just the cynicism there's a cynicism there.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah wow wow and that is shame a social shaming right yeah that's incredible I mean in the UK it's not for me to say and I don't know if I can speak for those experiences. There is a welfare state and there's more and more of a stigmatization you know um for sure it is it's mission creeped quite uncomfortably and and I suspect even more so with an up with government particularly a return a government I wouldn't want to see come to power. But but what I'm yeah what I'm quite interested in is whether that because I I said maybe if I can give an example it's gonna be folks that need time off work because of the you know the the barrier they face or the impairment and then they're working through so somebody maybe with a hidden difference like fibromyalgia it's not unusual for people to need time off because of the heads or MS. But like when you have a heavy head cold and it's really bad and I might not go to work or for that day that person may because they feel like well I've got to persevere I've already taken a few days off month you know so I've got to persevere with this one. But you think well okay you're actually not you don't you know this is uh this may not be the fiber of margin it may not be the MS still I'm well yeah there's time off um so those things I think are quite common.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

The other is the mental health experience of just moving around a city um and New York is a good example I'm sure and Paris I found the mean accessible city I've ever been to and inaccessible yes inaccessible I mean maybe that's really harsh there's probably a lot of French people how would you say that such but I generally thought dude you've got money as a city you have money yeah rather than this it's awful you know um London yeah it's really not good either but it's got plans really strong plans very vocal about equity in motion and how we do this um it's a long plan but it's I'm in a lot of those meetings to do that not sure in America I don't yeah it's interesting because uh you know the sunflower lanyard that a lot of people use for non-apparent or invisible disabilities I I have only found that useful in the UK I've worn it in many countries including the United States I've only found it useful there not only because there's the awareness about it but the the conversation about invisible disability is very apparent even in the uh subway trains I don't know what you call it there T is it not the T it's the uh two the two um um there's a invisible disability seat and sign on the bathrooms uh restrooms there's an invisible disability um sign often that I saw um so that you know I walk into an accessible bathroom and people like what are you doing using that bathroom you're not in a wheelchair but they don't they don't know uh that I have a a metal leg or I'm claustrophobical back or I'm breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

They don't know they don't know and so but in the UK I found that there is more conversation around uh and non-apparent disabilities that that's fascinating again it's going back to uh a country with the resources to do better there has been a real focus in the UK to say not all disabilities are are visible that's a really important thing um and you're dead right there for different people we have is radar keys are very common and they will allow you to access um a big shout to disability rights uk who do amazing work with the radar keys I'm just very proud to answer them. But the radar key anyone can essentially buy one but the question really becomes is the trust on civil society why would you buy one if you're gonna abuse it well might do but why would we have that mindset more importantly why would we have that mindset our mindset is if you need access then you access right um is it perfect no no far from it but but it's it's got to be based on trust and and and I guess after poverty I don't know if you'd agree with me but I think the second most disabling thing in the world is attitudes you know and it's the attitude of who gets to deserve anything. And yeah if you're looking at a accessible toilet and someone coming out of it out of wheelchair what does that mean in community? Yeah um but yeah well if that's still a big deal in in the US that's interesting that's still that's still there.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

The cynicism is there not not believing people assuming of course this is from the government and leadership this is why we're cynical and not trusting but if 38% of uh students in college and university here in the United States claim disability currently and need accommodations and want accommodations. That's risen a lot lately and people immediately said they just want more time to take a test they want their own private room or they want to get away with something that was the immediate overwhelming response rather than believe them or what is happening that so many young people are feeling disabled in our country and is our country disabling yes yes and absolutely and and this goes back to the disabling situation right yeah um I know we touched on this and I'm gonna do we're gonna talk more about disabling situations particularly in the conflicts issues of conflict and militarization and how that affects disabling but that's not for today.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

What I'm interested in to heart this yeah what is a disabling situation and if you are listening to this I mean close your eyes at the moment because we're going to try and unpack something that has maybe been around for a long time that these are experiences that happen to us not who we are yet to get support to get any kind of financial understanding have to say this is who you are rather than what is happening to you. The example I might give is refugees right it's not an identity we all think of it as an identity but it's an experience what happens to you as what your b as what your body reacts to it's traumatized because it's what happened to you yet react as if it's who you are really hard for folks to especially when you're in eye of storm to be able to shake it off or even reject as we've gone right to the circle of you the pathology labels that we were scared to have needed to have recognized the weight of them the shape of them and still today they're not a label that experience your experience and say this is what's happening to me. It's who I am anxiety disorder is a good example. And what's a disabling situation I have glasses on well not right right now but I don't put mine on actually you and I wear glasses at our glasses and goes oh that person's got into spinning and that's a good thing you know it's not the thing to focus on. In truth I I couldn't drive home I managed to do this podcast I'm just I went to rest my eyes but I could not drive home without my glasses. If somebody took my glasses away I would be in a disabling situation.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Yes I definitely would not drive a car yes um yet we don't think of glasses because glasses are part of everyday belonging so the pursuit here if we can and we are uh we are the generation to activate it but the next generation that drops the disorder is the generation that recognizes that social economics sex agency and choices and attitudes especially about the ones we have about ourselves choices deservingness and that they are the generation that can recognize that these are things that have happened to people can happen to themselves if they can only who they are and to still hold that truth and say that doesn't mean we don't have needs these are experiences not identities I think about how likely it will be that there'll be something called detainment anxiety disorder or something that like pathologizes something that's happened to people that they're impacted negatively about you know and and how we'll pathologize that just like we pathologized you know queerness just like we've pathologized yeah so we'll we'll label it and then and then that becomes you know the the the identity rather than experience and I also think about how it's in terms of agency I have trauma I don't see trauma as my identity it's something that happened to me but I am autistic it's just a the the language is interesting and I think it's interesting to allow people to identify as they wish and to to share the language that they wish because one person will say I am ADHD and one person says I have ADHD and that it impacts how they think about themselves and and how they want us to refer to them.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

And so I just think it's always good to ask people uh yeah absolutely and we absolutely because then there's a healing in a being asked and second having a space just like what is it to be it doesn't have to be static. Yeah um yeah I think it's really important. It is mental health awareness week I was thinking I'm gonna just give a little bit of trigger warning because it's gonna be maybe a bit sensitive um but it is mental health awareness week it's also the the the I I I lost my birth I was very young so I was in care a bit um and and she she she essentially through life and loss and and she was autistic from what we understand which it's also her birthday this month so I'm quite conscious of that but it's also mental health awareness week uh month and so she left just early and earlier than she should she was just 26 you know but I and I come to think the postnatal depression and all those things actually as a young woman at the age of well young girl actually five partition happened that meant she was displaced she was on the run men with machetes were chasing human beings and it was really tragic. Call it partition of India is actually the second largest genocide of the 20th century. And human beings haven't reconciled that and certainly not the British state you know and the ongoing impacts of that terms of mental harm on hormonal and generation for salvation it continues to be and it continues to play out in issues or conflicts even today be it even 70 70 odd years afterwards you know be it Pakistan or or Bangladesh or India or Sri Lanka echoes of that what was once one giant country called India being split and people's movements I'm not bringing anything other than I have to recognize that's their experience of what happened to so many people that is racialized justice. Racial justice is there a question around social political and yet when people are lost in that space as a they become sectioned under mental health acts they really become the problem to side or sometimes they leave early children care. All of those things play a role we understand mental health to be what we're not doing is looking at the social factors that would have affected this young mind so early. It would have done psyche in the space attention anxiety or stress in my mother's case 1971 happened and stresses of seeing another war happen which became Bondesh Pakistan so I'm really keen to look at that restorative justice around mental health. And if we can do that then we can start acknowledging that it actually isn't a disorder but rather a social outcry how human beings have to navigate complex systems that they had very little say in yet that were done to them at the age of five in in just one case for me.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

So I'm really committed to this and I know you are and I guess when I'm thinking about it in the closing of today I know I've left it in a really important space but also quite an epic one I want to ask you Brasha what keeps you hopeful in this you know and in this space that we know that we can do this with this depth but what keeps you hopeful knowing how real it is briefly before what keeps me hopeful is in response to everything you said to me I'm keep thinking accountability like when when it's recognized as systemic when it's recognized as social justice there needs to be accountability other that that isn't blaming or putting the responsibility on the individual to manage or handle. That being said okay what keeps me hopeful what keeps me hopeful what keeps me hopeful um oh goodness gracious you know um this is gonna sound so random but uh recently I've been thinking about orca whales killer whales because and the grandmother theory and the fact that whales and mammals are the only ones who go through menopause and why do we exist past the point of being able to reproduce and why do why do whales live to be 90? Why do women live to be 90? And and the wisdom and the perspective that we learn from our elders and our ancestors brings me hope because because we've been in this place before and we've navigated it in many different ways. So we're not without resources or knowledge or wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Um yeah that's what I'm with right now the whales the whales sorry it's my favorite animal um but you wanted to know that and also for my 40th birthday my wife took me to Iceland uh to see to see to see AUCAS in the world yeah and it was just a really that I did not know that about you no no it's and and they're just epic and I I um I just yeah so I got a really glee when you just I didn't know you were gonna go to AUKUS. I did not know I was going to either and I like that they're mad at us that they smash boats and I'm pretty mad at you guys I think I hope I hope no one gets hurt in a boat from them. But I think I find it amazing that there's something wild about that. That's very interesting I know what you mean about the grandmas I don't know if folks are listening to get that I would love you to explain that a little bit more just for the folks to hear that. But you're really talking about grandmothers teaching their grandchildren right how to hunt how to do things. Yeah it's great I mean orchas have elders you know they don't just do menopause but they have elders in the back.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah yeah and I've That the grandmothers are doing leading, they make sharks, they do they lead the salmon runs and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Yeah, yeah. It's the same with elephants as well, though they have to make sharks, you know. Yeah, and uh I have a picture, Pasha, I'll send to you, and then we can maybe we can put it in the comments. But it's uh it was in Kenya, and I could see all these elephants and they were eating. Soon as I wrote up, and she was huge, but she's stopped, she's looking at me and letting the others eat. I think as long as she's okay, they're gonna eat. She's just talking me, watching me going, I'm not eating. I want to see what you do. And I was like, I'm just gonna take a picture and move on and let you carry on. But you were just amazing to say, um, your grandmother, yeah. Grandmothers lead the way, raise a generation. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, that keeps me hopeful. And uh yeah, that you know, folks are listening and they're picking up. This podcast is getting more attraction. I would love to hear more from people listening to it. So what does it make what makes them hopeful about it? To know that as we do these conversations, we're never gonna shy away from the realities of really what makes us mentally what makes mental health wrong, but also what makes mental health strong. And that's really over to you folks. And thank you so much for me for listening and to be here in this in in the in the joy of this work.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Thank you, Artif. Thank you, everyone, listening. And uh yeah, we'll see you next episode. Thank you, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Thank you. Bye bye.