#6: ADHD Tax, Neurodiverse Relationships, and Window Seats

This conversation on the Neuroinclusion podcast delves into the concept of "ADHD tax" which includes the financial, emotional, and relational impact of managing neurotypical systems with ADHD. Hosts, Atif and Pasha discuss the importance of redefining happiness and success in the context of neurodivergence, the cultural differences in advocacy between the US and UK, and the nuanced and often hilarious dynamics of neurodiverse relationships. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Neuroinclusion podcast. Conversations from across the pond and beyond. I'm Pasha Marlowe here with Atif Chodery, and we're going to talk about uh all things neuroinclusion and beyond today. Hi, Atif.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Hi, Pasha. And hi, everybody listening. Which seems to be our, I think it's our seventh session.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Yeah, it's either seven or eight. So yeah, we're on a roll. I have to share something that you'll appreciate as to the who's listening and the benefits of the podcast. Um, because even if one person, you know, is impacted, uh, but this one selfishly is very helpful to me. My husband started listening to our podcasts again and he said, you know, I recognize how well Atif holds space for you when you share something, and he doesn't jump into solving the problem or fixing it. And he said, and and I recognize how much it seems to help you process. He said, Should I do that more? I said, Yes, absolutely. And so he's been listening to you in our conversations, and now he's a better partner to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

So how beautiful is that! Wow, that's amazing, right? On many levels. Thank you, Fashion, for saying that. And thank you for your husband. Uh, he's just giving me credibility points that my wife would be astonished by. So I think that's okay. And and isn't it wonderful that sometimes we can be that way for others as well. Um I hope you will listen to this and and and hear what your husband said. It's it's very much true that we can probably be that in in different relationships for each other. Um, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Yes, I am far more, he also mentions how I am maybe patiently listening to you, where we're often with him, and he's ADHD, and you know, he is very circular thinking. And sometimes I'm like, what is the point? Like, what are you actually talking about? What question are you answering? I'll get impatient. Um, but I don't do that with you. So that's also my work is to notice that I should be as generous to to him as I am to you.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

It it's a conversation for folks listening as well, because our partners are our loved ones, and they are true, hopefully, if we've got good ones, a true representational trust, right? Because you you see me as I am without having to just put makeup on, without having to dress rehearse, without having to and and this is a very sacred relationship because you're saying to the person, witness me, you know, truly witness me, see me as I am, and and live a life with me to say my life mattered. Our lives mattered. But at the same time, we get tired of each other, or we get tired of thinking about how to say something because we are often masking in our lives or our experiences or our workplace. So our life partner is the one person we should never mask with. But with it, I suppose we we get a bit bumpy. Um I don't think my wife is amazing. I don't think I could go through life without her. But I don't know if I could speak to my friends in quite the short way that I might do with her, and vice versa, do you know for her as well?

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Yes, yes. Yes, I I feel the same, you know, w because I feel so safe with my partner, I can be very messy with him and I can unmask, and unfortunately, sometimes that means I'm more impatient or grumpy um and angry and I I kind of share everything. So he sees, you know, he sees more of the um messiness. But that's because I trust him to hold it. Um but I also think we get as partners, as a couples therapist, I see this all the time that couples become used to each other and they all almost become so enmeshed into one that they forget that the other person has their own complete, complex, nuanced inner world and and you know, is it is an individual person outside of the relationship. So I think sometimes we we just need to see our partner through the eyes of either strangers or friends or colleagues rather than the person we're you know connected to for hopefully the rest of our lives if we're lucky.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You you mentioned that your partner has ADHD too, right? Yes. You both have ADHD in this context.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Yes, although um, as I've shared, uh I'm autistic as well. And it feels like my autism is more dominant than my ADHD, uh until ADHD tax shows up, which I know we're gonna talk about in a moment because I definitely experienced that. But with um, but with my husband, he is, I'll just say 100% ADHD. And and so his ADHD shows up um more consistently on a day-to-day basis. Uh, and and then for me, it seems to show up when I'm stressed more. It's just it doesn't, it doesn't, it's not always dominant, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

No, no, no. This is a joy of life. I I think it's amazing. I just uh I have this theory about planes, which I might uh share with you if there's time. But just if I may ask, do you sit on the window seat of a plane, you personally?

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Yes, there's no other seat.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yes, exactly. So this is my next question is your husband, does he not want the window seat too?

SPEAKER_03 6:02

I well, he's very tall, and so he prefers the aisle for his long legs, and I prefer the window because I look out the window. I don't understand people who don't open the window shade and don't look out the window at clouds and and towns and cities. It makes no sense to me. I've flown over the Grand Canyon and the Alps next to somebody who didn't open the window, and I was crying, like begging to switch seats with them. I don't understand like the lack of wonder there. And so, no, I'm I'm a window seat person.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

You you can guess, right? But yeah, no, I am too. Yeah, uh I have a funny theory about that, but I I don't know. It's just something I noticed that life is full of uh these things. I came to this conclusion when I was really young that I like the window seat. I've always wanted the window seat, but there are people around me that don't. Yeah. For the same reason. And I found it really intriguing. It was like such a wake-up caller. Whoa. How could that be? Yeah. And and I kind of realized, so I may just indulge a little bit just to say that there are people who they want to get to where they want to go. They want to get to the toilet, they want to get to whatever, nothing. So they prefer the R seat, or nothing's in its way, right? Nothing's in their way. I think that life is full of these moments. And and those listening are really interested in this because the window seat person is often the person who just, as you said, is flying before the plane's even taken off, you know? And and things get ruffled, and when there's turbulence, they they sort of move that turbulence into it until until they can't. And then it's really stressful. But in general, they assume that turbulence is part of the ride. You know? Okay. Some of those folks, they don't take their buckles off even when the captain says so. Or when they oh they loosen their buckle, you know, but they kind of got the buckle on. And so what I realized is that sometimes you can see a marriage. And I don't know how it shows up in this, but in my case, my wife is an RC person, and I I look at marriages and I sort of think you can hear the two RC people, their kids will never go about, they will functionally organize mortgages, payments, pension plans, the whole shebang. You know, there will be a plan, and that plan will be clear. And and you can hear the cutlery moving when they're eating in restaurants, you know? Yes, yes, you know, and uh, and I think that's there. And then you get two window seat people, and and there's chaos. I mean, but but it's okay. Children are born and raised in that chaos, and mostly they're okay, and it's definitely the moment, you know. But I generally think the best relationship probably is, I think, or I like to think, is between the aisle and the window together, because you know, when the aisle seat person she doesn't just check her buckle, he doesn't just check his buckle, he checks your buckle to know the person. When that turbulence comes, they recognize it. You or me or the Windows C people in our lives, we don't see it until it's sometimes a little bit frightening. But we all need to feel the wind in our hair a bit before we're taking off. We all need to be excited about those moments, and and I think we all need to know where we're going, right? And nobody wants to be in the middle seat.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

No, my my uh child is always in the middle. Um, and you know, it'll be interesting now because he's an adult and graduating high school, and don't get me started on that because I'll cry. But he um, if he doesn't travel with us, I don't know who will be in the middle. Some some person who must grab my hand during turbulence and keep me calm or will be okay with me reaching across the middle seat to the aisle to grab my husband's hand because I'm I'm both a very nervous flyer, especially in turbulence, but I also love love travel and love getting there. And I feel like it's magical every time I land in a new place, even though I've flown a lot.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's continue.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yeah, yeah. Well, I I already um did a little drop of of that we're gonna talk about the ADHD tax. And um what I find so funny about you mentioning that this morning is that I cried over the weekend regarding ADHD tax because I did look at my credit card statement, um, which is always a challenging experience, to see all the things that I was charged for that I don't remember signing up for or have subscriptions for that I forgot to cancel, things that I didn't return. I have a pile. This is very ADHD typical, a pile of returned boxes at my door that I just need to return them. But that's the step that's challenging, you know, to go to the post office or to UPS and to return it on time by a certain date to get the money back. And then if you don't, of course, you get charged. And I had a gym membership that I'm like, oh, I forgot I had a gym membership. I should probably go exercise at the gym. I'm paying for, oh, I have a music subscription. I don't listen to the music. I audiobooks subscription. I I saw all these charges of things that I'm not using. And, you know, the frustration and the shame and the overwhelm came over me, and I just was crying. Uh, like how how could I how could I be spending money so unnecessarily? And uh, and it was a Sunday, so I couldn't call some of these places because they were closed. But um, my patient uh husband, back to him, um, helped me cancel some of the subscriptions that were that were there. Um, and he's always very good in those moments where if I'm overwhelmed and feeling the shame about it, he'll just say, you know, it's just money, we'll take care of it. And I, and maybe this is more the autism, but not only was I upset about the ADHD tax in the moment, but replaying those numbers in my head all day, all night long, like kept me awake. I couldn't close the computer and let it go like he could, out of sight, out of mind, very nice ADHD sometimes trait. Yeah, that was not the case for me. It is always in my mind, and it's still in my mind. Like the specific numbers are just rattling in my head. So um, but the ADHD tax causes a lot of um grief and and shame and internalized ableism. And hopefully on a good day when I'm feeling more regulated and kinder to myself, it's quite humorous.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah, yeah. I am yeah, yeah. I'm really intrigued. I was thinking about this, about whether in America, and those of you listening, I'm coming and speaking from UK and Patha's speaking from the US, and the context of this is about power and neurodiversity to a certain extent, but it's also about you know the relationships, which are the two most powerful places on the in the world on neurodiversity is the US and UK. But I was intrigued because I actually had to ask, do you guys have an ADHD tax? Is it a thing in the US as it is in the UK? And I and I I was really pleased to hear in a weird way that it is a recognized thing for amongst many folks. Um and I I agree, it's for me, it's a lot about being discombobulated because I haven't planned the journey well, but I think I have. And there's a time blindness, which is very common, and then I realize cracking, I'm out of time, I'm gonna be late. This is gonna fit a sense of shame. There's only one way around this. I'm gonna get a taxi. And this taxi is gonna cost more than getting the bus. Way, way more. Yeah, navigating the bus is gonna be a bit of a pain. Um I don't even like Uber because I gotta meet them somewhere, you know? And I'm like, you know, it's a good meeting spot. Oh, I don't know what meeting spot, so I'll just use a black cab. And these things can be expensive, as you as you said.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

And it comes with an emotional cost of not wanting to be late. So I think even more than that, not wanting to let someone down. Yes. Do you know? Um but I agree with you that I I find in it do you do this so I guess an example I bought a therometer for a fish tank. It it's too big for the fish tank I'm using. And the right thing to do is send it back, of course. Of course. And then I was kind of like, oh, but just in case my son's fish tank breaks, it's good to have an emergency fish tank. Uh therometer, because fish will die. So I did the justification.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Just in case items all over my house, yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Just in case, and then you sort of think, yeah, this is silly because you have plenty of time. Uh what's what's your take on parking fines and things? Is that is that a big one for you?

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Um I find it very complicated. The different rules of each sign, you have a you have to put in a code, the QR code, you have to sign up. It's just very complicated. And then I find it very complicated to then put it in my phone, not when it's due to be paid again, but figure out how long it's going to take me to either walk back to the meter or to set my alarm on my phone prior. I just find it very stressful. And I actively seek out places that have free parking um or places that have, you know, easier, you know, all day parking where the meters aren't um constantly in the back of my mind uh as a stressor. So I'm and I live in a small town close to a city. So when I go to the city, it's very much in my mind. But in my town, there's hard, there's not even one stoplight, one traffic light. It's very, very quiet and easy to navigate, which is very good for my nervous system. Um, but yeah, parking and in general and driving is stressful.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

And and a lot of it, I know because people don't have it. My my wife doesn't not really. If she gets a subscription, she knows why she's got it. Um if something has a 14-day and then you cancel it, she'll cancel it within 14 days. Wow. Yeah, magical. I know it's it's great powers, comes with responsibility. But I I um I don't I don't relate to that. And I look at something and go, I don't care about 14 days, I don't really care if it's a year, you're gonna catch me, you know? I will forget. You know, you know. So I don't make use of a lot of things that could be really handy. Yes, yes. Because immediately there's a catch, you know. And and I I suspect that's for you, no?

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Yes, very much. I I think I'm going to create better systems than I typically do. And so, yeah, I I get myself stuck in that place um where I'm like, oh, I'm just not gonna pay this, don't even sign up for the free trial. But then sometimes I'm like, oh, I could do this. Come on, Pasha, you could do this 14 days, just put it in your calendar in 14 days, cancel it, and then I do, I put it in my calendar, and it shows up in my calendar, and I look at it. I said, Oh, I should do that today. Yeah, yeah, and then it doesn't always happen.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

I don't even like borrowing things from people because I well I don't want to let them down. I think you know, I think we talked about this before that some of the issues around neurodiversity means we are just consistent people pleasers, you know? Yes, and I need to. But that's the same, is that I this fear of letting someone down is bigger than me using a tool that I don't I only need that tool once, maybe, but I'm just gonna buy it, you know, and that makes you an uh an unwitting consumer, but also Yeah you know, is this practical? You know, it you know it's not, right? We should be distributing tools and things without worrying, but we worry.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Yes, yes. The letting people down is so true. Um, I'm on my my third, my youngest is graduating, and with my older two, when I was younger and masked and didn't even recognize my ADHD. Yeah. I would sign up to be what we call here room parent, uh, or the person who makes cupcakes when a child has a birthday. I don't know what I was thinking, but I would sign up to do that because that seemed like the good mother thing to do. And certainly I could figure out how to make cupcakes. And every time that came up, I was last minute racing to the store to buy what I was supposed to make. And um, so that was child one. By child two, I was like, maybe I shouldn't sign up to make the cupcakes, but I'll sign up to be there in the room to help set up cleanup. That was a little bit easier. Third child, I did not sign up for anything. No, I just like because I just know myself. It was stressful and I was worried to let people down. I was worried to let the the children down, the teacher, the other parents. So yeah, I just and and I think for me that goes into um, you know, what is a what is a good parent? What is a uh, you know, what is success? Yes, um, what is wellness. And so for me, I found that being a good parent meant to be present, to be um always, you know, loving and empathetic, and that it didn't mean homemade dinners every night or being room parent and making cupcakes, um, or even going to all their games, you know, or sports. That it was every day my uh child comes down the stairs. I say, good morning, I hug them if they let me. I say, It's good to see you. Um, and and I have as many in-the-moment interactions of of seeing them and being present to them and letting them know that I'm that I'm there um and to support them and to have their back and to protect them and uh love on them, even on the days they're very messy. Um and and that's that's what I've settled into, is what is a good parent now. But before it was a lot of expectations of, you know, looking a certain way, being available all the time, um, making life easier for them, being very over involved in their school. Um it wasn't it wasn't good for me. Um, and I don't know if it necessarily served them well either. But some for some for some parents it does. I just had to re-establish for myself what what good parenting was for me.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Wow. That's so much in that it takes a lot of conviction, I think, to be able to say, I'm gonna rework this for me. You know, we're watching TV programs, particularly because America creates so much about television. You know, I was always fascinated by TV. I I hope I'm not the only One seen this, but like you'd watch American TV shows, and the mum would make this amazing breakfast, and the kid would be like, No time, ma'am and I just got they'll just sink in orange juice and jump on a bus.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I was like, how does this happen in America? But we would watch shows like this, you know. It would look and and it always looked like I guess the phrase it doesn't translate well in England, but I guess what they we we see is soccer moms, you know? Yes, and everything and they're doing everything. And I think in that case, there's an awful lot of pressure for the mom, right? So it's a different tax. Yes. And I want to say it. I don't know what we're gonna call it, but it's a I don't know what we'd call it, but it's a nuance within the intersectionality discussion. Yes. For what it is to be a mother, what it is in order to play up to the roles the mothers are shown on television and what it what it means to feel like you're failing at that. Like all of these things, and I and to listeners, I wanted you to feel it as well. This isn't attacks because we're not good at something, it's not attacks because we're lazy. No, it's attacks because we are navigating systems that were never designed for the realities of people and the various needs they come in. Yes, I know that there are efficient people who can do certain things very well, um and there are people really deeply imaginative, filled with joy, magic, and soul who don't necessarily cancel subscriptions on time. So what we have here is those realities, but I think for women that reality is pushed even further to to to to a to a stress point or a brink. Um I don't think I'm being unfair here. I think this is this is maybe it's different in terms of where I'm learning things, but I want to give space to that. Um I also want to give a space to dispracting men who are just not good at DIY. We watch TV shows again. America has such an influence, and these men are just great building things and this and this and this and hunting and whatever. We're like in the UK, we watched things a girl. We don't go hunting with our kids. Not really, I don't know. Oh yeah. And we don't fish particularly. No, some of us do. But to the men who are just men and good men and good fathers who are not good with hammers, you know, I love you dearly. Just if you can come out and say it, that's great. But can you? Yeah, I mean, can you, you know?

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Yes, I think the gender norms are very strong. And I will say uh that I believe our current government, uh, including Trump, is uh magnifying a lot of those gender norms and and pushing for patriarchy and supporting it, and and really I'm we're seeing more misogyny than we have in, I feel like decades. Um and and I I'm feeling I'm feeling that definitely uh on a on a daily basis. And I know you read the post that I did, but um to the extent that that it seemed quite um normal and acceptable for a male colleague speaker of mine at a recent conference that I was keynoting um that I was I wasn't wearing a suit. I wasn't wearing a suit because why would I? That's uncomfortable, nor was I wearing high heel shoes because again, uncomfortable. If I'm gonna speak better and be more present if I'm comfortable, I was also wearing very colorful clothes. And he said after I was done, he said, he said, great talk, um, which it was. And he said, you're very colorful. You're not like other speakers I've seen. And I said, well, that's kind of on brand with what I'm saying, because I'm talking about neuroinclusion and accepting all functioning styles. And I thought that was the end of it. And he said, well, the funny thing about speaking is that it's all about image. And it's really about, you know, do you look professional? Are you professional? Do you seem professional? And he said, um, I don't know if you're giving the professional vibe with the way that you dress. And I was like, well, I did just keynote. So somebody trusted me to do to do this. And I, and part of my message is about redefining what professionalism is in the world of neuroinclusion. And he said, he said, I know, I know. He's like, but it's just so interesting. Like you're older, um, you don't wear makeup. He's like, I mean, if you did wear makeup and like cover and did like Botox or whatever women do to cover their wrinkles, you know, you would look more like a typical speaker. So it's so interesting that you're not doing that. It's like, this is fascinating. Like, I'm thinking, did you listen to my keynote? Like, how ironic. But um, but he was giving me unsolicited advice that that perhaps maybe I I could get more work or higher paid work if I looked a certain way or presented myself younger or more typically professional, um, which frankly made me want to do it less, you know. Uh, but I posted about it. And and I would say 99% of the support was not all women, it was, it was all genders, but from the UK, not a peep much from the US, including the people I know who who I've been, you know, connecting with on LinkedIn Daily. I said, that's interesting. So I wonder if there's a cultural difference in what is professional, what what does it be to look professional or to act professionally? And I think the UK is much farther ahead in neuro neuroinclusion than the US. Um, and so I'm I'm just wondering for you if if that type of um perception or comment would would likely happen in in your opinion there.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Well so much there. Uh it's just wrong. It's just so wrong.

unknown 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

I don't I think I think I can't speak on this in the sense of in terms of wrinkles or what that means, because I think this is something this is an element of I think shaming that is more made to women than men. I I'm guessing. Um I know we're the same age. Um but I don't know that level of shaming and that level of expectation, I think, is applied to women more than men everywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Uh and I'm glad and that you got more support, at least that you got support from anyone, but to hear it's from the UK, I think was you know is encouraging. But in truth, I'm gonna say that guy's an arsehole. I mean, it's I mean, I'm just gonna say, I mean, you need to feel it. The audience needs to feel it. This guy's a serious a-hole. And and to not do the basic work to hear what you said.

unknown 29:03

No.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Because what they're really saying is if you look a certain way, right? Yep. Okay, what does then it doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't matter what anyone says, if you look a certain way. I get I guess we all make humans, we do, we make categories, we make judgments, consciously or unconsciously, I guess that's human behavior. Yeah. And it's really about how we guard against that. You know, so that we ourselves because we are all incomplete. And in our incompleteness, we we sometimes look for the things that feel safe and familiar. Um and sometimes when something's challenging us, that's when the greatest healing can be. But if we disregard it because it comes in flip-flops or it comes in this or or colourful jackets or brown skin, which I think is probably going to be an issue for this guy too. Um we are looking at a supremacist behavior, not of anything that's meaningful, not of anything that has content or conviction, but really what is just another process of assimilation. You know? And here we are. Our our work and my work and your work isn't about anything other than an invitation, right? To show up with or without neurodiverse areas and conditions, with or without diagnosis, with or with just the ability to say, I'm curious and I'm excited. That's enough. Yeah. But when I'm if I did a talk and then somebody I mean, I don't know, passion, I I'm saying that that'd go for a long process of uh rejection sensitivity dysphoria, you know? What do you want? It's give some people that I'd be going, oh yeah, I'm fat, I'm this, I'm too brown, I'm too dyslexic, I'm too that all enter my mind for quite a while.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

And then it would invalidate what I've had to say, it would make me play small for the next time.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

And yet I'm very, very good at protecting others.

SPEAKER_03 31:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yes. Um I would love to hear from the audience as well. How many of us really take that stuff and absorb it and get really hurt by it? Channel it into something that we wouldn't allow others to feel or experience.

unknown 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

And yet we put up with it ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Um I I think this eases with age. Um being post-menopausal now is so fascinating because according to society, um, especially neurotypical capitalistic patriarchal standards, I have zero worth anymore. I'm not, I'm past my prime, putting that, you know, whatever in quotes. I'm I'm not fertile. I like I'm too old to keep up with, you know, AI or whatever. These are all just stereotypes, obviously. Um, so what is my purpose? What is my worth? What is my place? Uh, you know, I'm not like men, if we were to go very heteronormative, or not gonna, you know, choose me or desire me uh over younger models, right? Or versions of people. This is this, this is the narrative. And so I really when I be when I became post-menopausal, first of all, I did grieve the idea that I would never be able to birth children again because it was my greatest joy. But then I said, Well, who am I now and what is my worth as a woman now? And of course, now I know it's my wisdom and my decades of experience and deep perspective and empathy and, you know, so so much. But the comments about appearance would have crushed me in my 20s and 30s because I would have felt like I had some sort of um control over it or ability to change it and that I needed to for success professionally or relationally. And now it's almost like being on the other side. You're just like, well, first of all, like there's nothing I'm gonna be able to do about it. Like I'm on it for the ride. Like there's a bit of surrendering to aging, but also this like fierce um, you know, resistance to it and wanting to pave the way for younger women and and other and older women too to just reclaim their worth uh at at all stages. But it but I'm finding it so much easier, um, post-menopausal pausally, most penopausally, if that's the way to say it. Anyhow, it's just been a silver lining on pun intended.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah.

unknown 33:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

But it it's lovely to hear that side of it, but it makes me sad for the younger women who who may again this what is an invitation to come speak at this event to do this is actually an imposition because you have to look a certain way, you have to be a certain thing, you have to dress a certain thing, you have to be a certain age. This is not an invitation, this is an imposition. And and our ability to reject that comes with a sense of self-worth. Mm-hmm. But actually, if we're really honest, it comes with financial resources.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

How so? How what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Like um that if we are practitioners, we're doing this work, we have ethics and code of conduct, and if an organization looks like it's doing really good things, then you know, you go along and you do these things, and you're not you're not um gonna be psychic to know a comment's gonna come along, right? And even if it's a comment from some random dude, okay, well then you can you can rub that. You can look at other events and think, no, this doesn't speak to me. My ethics or my culture or my values, I'm not gonna do it. And then you'll have moments where you're not sure, but it pays well, so you'll go and do it, you know? Yes or whereas you we want to be in a world that says, actually, my voice is needed not where it's celebrated, but where it challenges. And that so it should be in places that can create that discomfort.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

The question then is, and I suppose I might give an example that when I think about anti-racism, I have to visit a place in my childhood which was often powerless. And I might bleed a little bit. But that's okay. It comes with the conviction. But sometimes I'll bleed a little bit on the way home. I find I've arrived through my door and I'm home, but I'm still bleeding because I've given up a lot. And so is it worth it? Yeah. Should it come with insults from people? No. No. And so at what point do you say, Hi man? I just gave a talk. You forget what I'm wearing, forget your version of what is good makeup or not good makeup, or what is a healthy age. Just tell me with conviction, and it's okay if you can't, tell me three things that were really important that I just said. You know? Because if you're in this event, why are you here? You know, and this can be said without anger or or frustration, at least perceived frustration, but it can be said, you know. And I wonder if we just all need that moment. Okay, okay, I get it. But what do I think?

SPEAKER_03 36:52

This was one of those conversations that I replay in my mind with the things I should have said, you know, when I should have said this. Um, yeah, because uh certainly he wasn't listening, but perhaps he wasn't listening because he didn't have the respect of me to listen to be listened to because I didn't have the appearance of somebody he would respect. So he was he was you know tuning me out. But I think back to what you were saying prior, you know, to be anti-racist and racist uh, you know, organizations would be very useful, to be neuro-inclusive and you know, non-inclusive organizations would be so useful. But then how do you get in the door? How do you access those spaces to then disrupt them if they're you know so closed-minded um to not hire you? And so I've I find sometimes, honestly, I will mask. I know how to do it. I know how to wear a black suit and high heel shoes and look neurotypical. And sometimes I do that to get in the door in places that I feel like need my message the most. And then when I'm there looking as neurotypical as possible, then I share the neuroinclusive messages. And so I'm I feel like sometimes almost as a disguise, I can be the bridge. And some people don't have the privilege to do that. You know, they're they they wear their neurodivergence or marginalization outside so much so that it's always apparent. But I feel like sometimes in a very sneaky way, I go stealth and then I go in and then I get them once I'm in the door.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And it takes, and folks listening to this, it you feel it too, because I'm sure many of you do. It takes more than courage to do this, it takes digging into a deep place that lives in your old childhood to do the emotional labor, you know, to say, I believe in this, I believe in you, I believe in the world I live in. Um, but there are days when you just will say, you know, I'm gonna swear, but say, fuck that. You know, to the hell, I'm not doing it today, you know, and it's okay. It's okay to say no. I'm not we're not here just to be a process of assimilation and finding sophisticated ways of pretending we're radical whilst assimilating to to to things that we didn't ask what. Um important. Lives are at stake. Do you know? Yeah. But I do think I'm touching on that, I think you are watching something that's when we talk about this a lot, which is why the podcast is called across the pond and beyond.

SPEAKER_03 39:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

It's the challenges that you're facing right now, no, in the sense that America is changing, I cannot say myself, because I don't think there's one America as an observer. I think there are many Americas. And I also still always think that Trump and Trumpism is an ugly moment of truth for America that an America isn't comfortable facing, you know? Yes, yes. But I don't know. If people are more at least polite in conversations, then that would do. But but what I'm sensing from you is that's changed.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

I I feel like this disrespect and incivility is on the rise. I I feel like people are not masking their racism and sexism, ableism, ageism, all of it as much. I think people are um normalizing, unfortunately, um the misogynistic, you know, perceptions and comments. And I'm I'm feeling it even in, again, my my small town, like people being uh homophobic and transphobic out loud when before it was they kept it to themselves because they knew it was quote unquote politically correct, you know? And so it's it's louder. It's louder, it's more prevalent and more acceptable. Um, and people are scared, thanks to gun violence, to stand up to people in public when they disagree. Um, there's so many levels of you know, fear uh behind being an advocate and saying, is this worth the risk to intervene? You know, um, or to even go to a march, you know, a a pride, a pride march, a women's rights march, uh Trump No Kings march. Always in the back of my mind now is gun violence. And it's like, well, that's just a whole other level of what's keeping us from being able to speak out and navigate and resist, which is probably part of the evil plan as far as I'm concerned. But like trying to, you know, keep us quiet and not uh have us gather and not have us um, you know, protect each other and fight for for each other. And so I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Wow. Look, look, I mean, that's amazing, isn't it? Look, I mean this is again a distinction to the UK. We go to demonstrations here, be there against war, invasions, Palestine or just civil liberties being taken away. Whatever they are, when we gather, I don't think that is first and foremost on anyone's mind, or even close. I don't think that's in the top ten. Really? Oh, we might think especially if you're a person of colour, you might think the police are gonna, and I would say, you know, I I can contest to that, the police will treat brown people of colour differently. But the idea that there'll be a mass shooting, no. Interesting. I don't think I don't think that's on the minds of people. I don't think that that this country has a history of things like that. That you know, our civil rights movements began in the UK many, many moons ago. I mean, even the right to vote came after what was a Peterloo massacre, the right to vote. Not all men had the right to vote, certainly women didn't, but even only men with property did. And so those civil liberties were hard and fought for a couple of hundred years. But I just don't think we gather and think there's gonna be a mass shooting. Well, there could be. This is a distinctly US thing.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Also ICE and detaining people at the demonstrations, oh yeah, like randomly detaining black and brown people, uh randomly detaining, you know, queer people, disabled people. Yeah, yeah. So I would say IC, detainment, uh mass mass shooting. Um, those are the top concerns.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 43:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

I mean this is really so let's go back to the heart of this. We really feel that, right? Because we've got the double empathy here. Um I want the audience to feel this way. I'm always amazed at US shooting school sheets, as we all are in the UK. Like how this gets to continue. When Australia, I think it was a called Portland, Portland massacre, and the moment it happened, there was automatic weapons. Australia just banned it, banned automatic weapons. And then Canada does not have this issue.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

No.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Um I don't, and this is maybe controversial, but I do not see brown kids in America doing school shootings. I don't see black kids doing it. I don't see Asian kids doing it, particularly.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Mostly white young men.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Yeah. Um, I think it's fascinating that that seems to not be discussed. Do you know, given the the level of uh violence that's accused on America's black youth, particularly men or young men. This is not a thing. So but more mostly what makes me sad is the double empathy of people who are autistic or ADHD who feel these things, civic and social outrage, which we've talked about on this podcast. They are also really sensitive to these feelings about that there may be mass shootings. This is not something I think the UK could speak to. Do you know? This is a distinctly US thing that I think a lot of kids with ADHD or autism will be really worried about.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Yes. Yes. Yes, worried about themselves, worried about people they know and love, and also in the witnessing of it, whether it's in their country or even on social media, not having the skills, especially if they're young, to create boundaries so that it doesn't so that the empathy that they feel doesn't infiltrate as it's happening to them or in the ruminations, uh, flashbacks, just all of it, especially if they're very visual, it it's hard to get it out of their mind. Um, and it's hard to to create boundaries um psychologically.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Let me ask you maybe this slightly of your your counseling hat on your your practitioner hat. I think that there is a big phenomenon for COVID showed that teenagers were in a lot of existential fear and anxiety. I am a closer to home than I can say of watching young people really feeling so sad about the expansionism that's happening in the Middle East. The the the idea that the world was just okay with the genocide in Gaza. Yeah and okay enough to watch parts of it happen in Lebanon or Syria. It leaves young people in a space where where are our where's our sense of identity if if LinkedIn doesn't talk about this because it's inconvenient. That our jobs that we go to, which we know won't really pay us the way that our parents or grandparents may have been looked after, but at least there's ethical standards, at least there's ideas of uh social governance, and yet these companies that we want to work for just don't talk about this.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

No.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Where do we go with these broken hearts?

unknown 47:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Um that I think is a global phenomenon.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

And are you noticing that with young people around you?

SPEAKER_03 47:35

Definitely. Many of my clients are coming to me for that exact reason. They feel this cognitive dissonance. They go to school, nobody's talking about it, nobody's allowed to talk about it. Work, nobody's talking about it or allowed to talk about it. Their families, oh, come on, like you don't you don't need to talk about this every night at dinner. Um, or friends saying that's too heavy. Can you just please talk about something lighter? Meanwhile, they're hurting. Um, here in in the US, people don't go to church as much or go to community gatherings as much. That might be a sign of, you know, the times in terms of just being on screen more, but potentially also what we were talking about before with being fearful. So then they're not going to church as much. And so they don't have these um places to fully express themselves. And so what I'm finding in my clients uh around the world is this um cognitive dissonance and existential um crisis of sorts where they feel like their inner world is not, uh there's no place to go with all of their big feelings and fears and sadness and grieving. And um and so as a as a mental health professional, certainly I'm hearing them say they go to therapists. Some of them ironically go to AI, you know, to to talk and have AI go deep into these thoughts, like as much as they want, interestingly. And then some turn to um drugs, drinking, self-harm, you know, other forms of ways to numb or try to release. Of course, I recommend, you know, movement and and nature and animals and the and other, you know, healthier forms, but um, but I'm absolutely across the board, all ages across across the world, sensing that, sensing that.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Yeah. That's quite something. In the next podcast, perhaps, or on one of the future ones, we'll talk about self-harm a little bit more and these things. I promise folks, we will never reinforce despair, and we never do. And it's nice to be able to talk about the politics and the reality of those things, especially when we're unsure how to talk about them in our workplaces, but we need to hear other people do, yeah. And we do always talk about the joy of our differences and how we feel them, even if it's frustrating. ADHD tax is one of them. But we are really here to be sincere about this. Um and I I guess I want to ask, as I as we always do on this podcast, those who are new to it, but I will finish, I guess we come to an end, but slightly for today. But I want to ask Pasha, given this, especially the depth of what we talked about and and everything, including you know, our seats and window seats and things, but just in general today, just thinking about today. What would keep what keeps you hopeful given what you see and given what's happening in the US today, uh and these conversations? What what keeps you hopeful?

SPEAKER_03 50:57

Much like with COVID, it became universally scary, and there was universal grief before we did change, for example, how we work, being able to work remotely, for example. Because Trump is so awful, there I do see more political movement and involvement from people who disagree with him and want change. AI is so disruptive and awful for anything from the environment or cognitive surrender and displacement of jobs that I think people are um speaking up against it. Young people at graduation services are booing and walking away if any of the speakers talk about AI as this wonderful new progressive thing in their world. They're like, no, this is destroying our future. So I always go back to the youth, but it's it's like it has to get, I wish it didn't have to get so bad before change happened, but I think we're at that place in so many ways that I'm feeling as much as as things are are quite um you know uncertain and and dark and scary in so many ways, uh for the people who are able to um have the capacity to and the desire to um to change and and to resist and to um speak out and to uh maintain hope and art and beauty. They're they're doing that more intentionally now. I know I am, and I think that's a glimmer of hope that I hold on to.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

What about that's a lovely thing to say, particularly about young people? Um yeah, I'm I I um um I guess a similar sort of thing. I I do think there's a moment of truth, perhaps, and again, I'm so fascinated by America because it carries really the the the sort of behavior patterns that will reach the rest of the world if we're not careful, you know. Um certainly has in the UK. Um, so I guess yeah, it's a similar sort of thing. I think that the more that we see this tyranny or this these absurddities, we also, as Newton's, I think it's Newton's fourth law, action and reaction are equal and opposite. Um what I guess is that what I mean by that is more that we see of this, the more that we awaken people to say, no, not in my name.

SPEAKER_03 53:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

You know, and so and I really mean it. I think the No King side of things is a huge example of that. Um it saddens me to think that ICE patrols those those marches to intimidate people.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

It saddens me to think that they should even be uh what they call a false flag or black operation or some people are injured and it and it stops such marches and democratic processes being being owned and felt. But I'm also amazed you saw the whole, I mean, quakey, millions and millions of people went for out for that, right? All across America.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Um that gave me a lot of hope, you know. I think Trump not getting to stick his name on the Kennedy center.

SPEAKER_03 54:24

Small win. Small win.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

We take what we can get. Um, but I suppose it's just that, right? Yeah. We're in the space where neurodiversity itself is not going away. The conversations around it are getting better, and I think we're asking so much more about what's beyond the label than we've ever done. And I'm hopeful about that as well. So, you know, that's it for me today. Yeah. This has been amazing, Pasha, in all your joy and all your love and all the wrinkles that I cannot see. I hope you just feel entirely excited to be you as I do to be me.

SPEAKER_03 55:05

Thank you. And thank you for always um you know reflecting back my um my own individual unique brilliance when I forget it. And and I hope we can do the same for you.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Yeah, oh, you always do. You always do. Folks, enjoy. Please, please listen to this when you do, but let us know what you thought of it as well. We are finding our feet, and we're gonna slots because soon start bringing in guests into this. Um, but I want us to really sit with why we talk about these things, why are we talking about excitingly about neurodiversity, why we are bringing politics into this, because participation is always political. Yes. And we also want to talk about what keeps us hopeful because that's what we're here to do. Um, that's a thank you for me and a and a bye for me in my heart to you.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Thank you, everybody. We look forward to hearing from you, and we'll see you and hear you next time. Good to see you. Bye.