#7: Current State and Future of the Neurodiversity Movement

Atif and Pasha have a conversation about the current state of the Neurodiversity Movement around the world, specifically the differences between the US and the UK. They define the future of the movement as collective liberation and discuss the impacts of government, school to prison pipelines, and intersectionality. 

Atif and Pasha will be inviting guests to join the conversation in future episodes. If you would like to be a guest or want to recommend someone, please contact us. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Neuro Inclusion Conversations from the Pond and across the pond and beyond. Our own podcast. Yes. And I'm here. I'm Pasha Marlowe here with Atif Chattery. Hello, Atif.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Hi, Tasha. How are you? Hi, everybody listening. Um, it is hot here. UK is hot. I know I'm talking to an American audience, and I know you get real climate weather. When it's summer, it's summer. When it's winter, it's winter. But wow, it is hot here. We've hit 92.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Yeah, that is hot. That is hot. And especially hot because, like you said, you don't have uh AC there in as many of the homes and buildings. So I can imagine it's quite uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's turning into a spikely film here. I suspect it might do. I'm not sure. But the schools are out today and tomorrow. Yeah. And you know, I could sort of spend a little bit of time thinking about neurodiversity and how we cope with change, particularly climate change and weather changes or even uh hormones. But I'm not sure I will. But I I think I could think about that a lot, but I'm not sure I will, at least for now. Um, I would just sort of say is that it's wonderful to have good hot weather when you need it and want it, but it's interesting what it brings out in people when it's too something, it's too cold for this or it's yes, you know, and and it's not it's of course we will never have a perfect suit spot, you know? At least I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yeah, and people with sensitive nervous systems are likely going to be more impacted by too hot, too cold, too noisy, whatever it is, too crowded. And so um, yeah, I know here it's pride, it's pride month for most of the country who celebrates. And uh, and even though I love Pride and identify as queer, I don't even go to the Pride events, not only because it's hot out, but because it's crowded and it's loud and I don't love parades. And so it's just interesting, but I know that's my nervous system. And I used to force myself to go because it seemed like the right thing to do, but then I never felt good. It didn't energize me, it didn't, it didn't feel safe, and so I just think it's interesting, you know, to when we honor our nervous systems in different environments and and also recognize that you know the heat might be more challenging for you than somebody else.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Yeah, yeah. Okay, but it's a provocation to the audience, yeah. I like this. If I honored my nervous system all the time, I don't think I'd get out of bed.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

You know, you would just stay in bed.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah, well, I'm not sure you know, a teeth would exist, really, you know, because by nature I am an introvert, and yet, you know, the world doesn't necessarily know that or even would probably accept not accept that. It may even really challenge me that and whatever I might have said there, that may have been a guy a long time ago. I don't really know. I just know that my happy spot isn't going to a party that was in the diary for a long time. But my happy spot is suddenly a party coming around me when I'm not expecting it. Yeah. So I don't know how to explain that. But other than if I know something is gonna be planned in advance, then it feels like an obligation. And my nervous system says, Hey man, what gives? Are you ready for this? No, not really. Are you dressing up? Oh no, are you gonna no? Whereas if it's just suddenly happening, then I'm super happy.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah, the spontaneity of it is good for you. I am the other way. I like to know ahead of time where I'm going, how to manage my energy before, during, and after. Uh, I like preparing what I'm gonna wear and uh what I'm gonna eat. And yeah, so just different, different, different nervous systems.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

We haven't talked much about this, but I really would like to do two things today. One is acknowledge neurodiversity pride for all of us around the world and recognize what an amazing thing happened, you know, in so many countries around the world. And I want to touch on that a little bit, but I also want to ask you personally, like I'm fascinated by the idea as a guy who I know I'm dyslexic in a Western diagnosis, I know I'm ADHD in the in all of the things that come with that. I also know or believe that not everybody with ADHD has dyslexia. But I do believe the nature of dyslexia or the impact of it in a life leaves everyone with dyslexia with ADHD. You know? So what they might use is comorbidity. So learning isolation, let's just use that word. And I'll get to my point around this. The learning isolation of being a kid in a world that expects you to read and write and absorb information and articulate it in written form because everyone is doing it. Even though it's a 20th century phenomenon. And I really challenge folks. I know you you will say, oh no, no, there are people who have been reading and writing for 300, 400 years. Well, I'll say no. A certain class of people have been reading and writing for 300 years, what 400 years. But this is not everybody. And so for everyone to do it, it's a 20th century phenomenon. The impact of a child life to say working memory and literacy skills is how I get to count in this life. It's a lonely place when that's not your those two things, working memory and literacy skills, they're not in your armory yet, you know. Yeah, and you could find yourself thinking, well, if they're not in my armory, then maybe nothing is.

unknown 6:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

And then the whole world says, no, kid, tons of things are. Look at this, look at that. If you're lucky, if you're lucky.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yes, yes, yes, we so much value the the ability people have to read or write in schools. It seems like almost all the other classes and experiences are devalued in comparison. And so uh for for me, I was I really leaned into the art and the theater, and I struggled with math uh through dysgraphia, still do. Uh numbers, numbers are like a foreign language to me still. And um, and math was the most important, not just in my school, but to my family. And if you were not good at math, you were not intelligent. And there was never a sense of multiple intelligences or different ways of being intelligent. And when I married my um current husband, my my final husband, hopefully, um uh he studied multiple intelligences, and that's how he teaches. So if a child struggles with, let's say, reading, um, but is really, you know, spatially intelligent or emotionally intelligent or kinesthetically intelligent, he makes sure to phrase it as such so that they know there are many ways to be intelligent. Unfortunately, society just value certain societies value some more than others, but that doesn't mean that a that a child is not uh smart or capable of of learning or success. Uh, but it takes it takes a teacher or a parent or some influence to to tell us that. That was not the message I received.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Yeah, well, we measured children through productivity long, long, long before they're ready to go into workplace. You know? We measure children through what they bring to a society.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

And functional way long before we even talk to them about a workplace. Um but no, so the reason I'm bringing this up is because yes, it's neurodiversity pride. So we should take pride in those moments and and those realities, the the way we learn. I want to say again what amazing thing to have happened around the world. Um, but I've got a couple questions. One is for you personally, because I am interested in comorbidity, and it's a really rubbish word, so overlapping impacts, conditions, barriers, call it what we want. You know, it's just coexisting.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Sometimes I'll say coexisting.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Yeah, so there's a whole bunch of cover, but like I said, let's stay on the spontaneity thing, because you've shared that you have ADHD and autism. To me, there's a wonderful contradiction in those spaces, but I don't know how it works for you. And I wondered if you would share something about that.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah, I and I think I might have shared this in the past. Like to me, it's that they're almost constantly in battle with each other, and and it really depends on which one is in the driver's seat on any particular day. Um, because when you said if you honored your nervous system, you would just stay in bed all day uh when my ADHD is in the driver's seat. That's more how I feel. Like, uh, just like I'm not gonna do anything well anyhow. It's gonna be overwhelming. It's like I should, I, I need rest. I um, you know, I I don't feel like work is easeful. I might, I might just get down that rabbit hole. But um, but autism is so funny because I actually over, I overwork, I overperform, I overextend more often than not. And so I would not allow myself to be in bed unless I was very, very sick. Um, this is not at all, this is not good. This is not healthy. I'm just letting you know. Like I will get up at 5 a.m. and work all day until 10 p.m. And very often my husband will walk in the room and he'll say, Why are you sitting in the dark? And I'll say, I didn't even know it was dark in the room. I'm just on my computer, which means for five hours as the sun was setting, I wasn't even aware of my surroundings because I was so consumed in my work. So that's for me how they're very different. And typically autism is in the driver's seat, unless rejection sensitivity is in the room and then all my ADHD comes back.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Wow, yeah, it's interesting. I now understand how you listen to me speak at two in the morning at your time when I was speaking in Dubai, that you were literally awake because you would have to wake up. Yeah. So I was like, wow, she's keen. She's really tuning in for this. Um, so all right, so let's let's take that on. Because I I don't have autism. I don't as a practitioner and a teacher and uh in the field of neurodiversity, I've always looked at autism and ADHD and thought, hmm, that must be quite a thing, you know? And as far as I know, I don't have autism, as far as I know, right? Um but I do know that I do not switch on until the afternoon. I don't and if I was to just then what go to bed till the afternoon, it's not gonna change anything, do you know? So uh I'm at my peak usually at this sort of time, which is now you know, quarter to seven in in the evening, you know. Yeah. My system is uh all guns firing right now. If you spoke to my colleagues and said, you know, how is it nine? Nine in the morning, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

So you should book Hati for keynotes at 7 p.m.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like at nine, seriously, I don't really talk much, not till 11, 12. Yeah. Um, well it's good listening, but also the brain is not, I can't recall things very well, names of things, people things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah, well, to me, this speaks to you know capitalism and workplace expectations and honoring different uh energy levels and and you know, the cycles of energy that we're all on differently, and like the nine to five just isn't suitable for most people. And if you're in the workplace and hopefully you're in a more flexible schedule, if not an entrepreneur, you know, and and doing more project-based work so that you're not, you know, kind of forcing your nervous system to do something that that isn't in service to you.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Absolutely. So this is a goes back to the point, right? That so much of our neurodiverse barriers and realities come do not come because we are autistic or ADHD or dyslexic. And yes, I know we're gonna spend a long time, and there's an industry on this about such things being okay and normal and part of our world, which is true. And that human condition is one of variety and differences and and and overlapping realities. But I think we don't spend enough time talking about, and I have touched on it before, so I'm not gonna elaborate too much on this course, that you know, and I've said in the UK and a mass disabling event happened. It was called the Industrial Revolution. Yes. And it wasn't just that we built factories, it was the entire change and makeup of the country. Yes. And uh death of communities, the death I mean, I think that J.R. Tolkien in a sense wrote Lord of Rings about that, you know, to a certain extent. That that we mobilized and people's sense of worth was based on how productive they were. Yeah, still Oh, and at the same time a light bulb was created, and it didn't just give light. It changed it was made by a diabetic, deaf, dyslexic man. You know, arguably Thomas Edison was not fun to be around. But but from his writing and his inventions and the way he worked, it does seem like a very dyslexic mindset. Interesting. But he didn't just give it light or create light in a world of candles, he changed economies.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

You know, and so with it becomes what's productive, what's not, who is useful and who's not. Yeah. And we've touched on this a bit. But I'm throwing it back at you as a reminder to the audience. Does do you see a space, and I think I'm gonna ask the audience to think about it as well. Do you see a space around neurodiversity and how it can be understood outside of capitalism?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Mm-hmm. Or productivity, if that's healthy to say.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Well, I sure hope so. Uh if in the workplace in particular, it's going to be a more challenging road because I think still the workplace, most, if not all of them, are mostly focusing on productivity uh and profit, you know. And so uh I'm seeing, at least in my country, the United States, a resistance to um the human, the human case or just like inclusion for inclusion's sake, if there isn't a strong ROI to productivity or um engagement or retention or innovation. And I could argue till I'm blue in the face about innovation being like an easy um, you know, connection to diversity of thought, but um, but it's not enough right now. It seems that there's a very strong narrative about, and actually kind of gross. What I'm hearing is like we need to retention is not the goal, but we need to keep our best people because AI is going to take over so many jobs. So retention isn't so much the goal now, but we definitely need to keep our best people. And then you're like, what is a best person? What defines your best person? And then they say the person who is the most productive, um, the person, you know, who works the hardest with the most work ethic, you know, and and then that concerns me a great deal that that now there'll be less jobs and that the people who will be able to um, you know, stay in at work will have to even more so perhaps fit into these neurotypical capitalistic standards of what is a good or best worker, you know. And so I it's the opposite direction of what I'd like to see happen.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Yeah, yeah. I am still in that um moment. Like I don't feel as dyslexic as I used to because of the way AI works. I I don't feel as lost in a list of emails that I need to deal with but won't deal with and wish I dealt with and then forget about them. Instead, I can just address them. I I I I speak to a machine and it fixes my grandma's burning for me, you know, and it does that so fast. It allows me to get on with other things. So AI in that sense is helpful, but I I absolutely agree. It's a younger generation that's going to take the toll here. But I I think like healthy children, and I think that's something I want to touch on for a second, but because healthy children by itself is an asset, you know, not for productivity, but just for uh fruction.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Continuation of the human race. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

But we don't we don't measure neurodiversity like that even. And I I was a dissecty guy, and I was like, yeah, you're really good at art. Well, I'm not. And I was like, it sucks to be me. I don't do art either. Not particularly. Um I think I've created things through a a kind of global canvas. When I look back on it. And I work as an artist of a kind, but I don't draw, you know. But I am able to visualize things and piece together a map that others struggled to see.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah. Your art is in your mind and heart, your vision. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

And it's it's only when self-esteem can change that you can then see that as a value. Especially when others don't do that. And what they do is more methodical. Yes. Or not more methodical, I thought right. A more recognized method methodical in a more recognized way. And then we go back to those, we need those inventors, those, you know, those the wheel spinners, the the weavers, the the brains that do things that others haven't done.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

My question to you. And I'm not gonna bring us down the road of talking about the orange man in power right now. But I'm gonna take us out of there for a second, because it doesn't live and die with him. Inclusion doesn't do that. But I have a question. Neurodiversity Pride was really big around the world. And I wanted to ask, given you are in the country with the largest economy in the world, was it big in America really, given? And if so, great, why? And if not, why?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Neurodiversity Pride as the day and the event, I didn't see any visibility on it unless I went look, and I did proactively go looking for it because I knew it was that day, but I only knew it was that day because I'm connected to the people who who designed the day. And so it didn't come upon me like I think would be nice, you know, for it to be more in the consciousness of of the country. I didn't, I didn't sense that here. Um and and I don't know, and I and I don't know if the the bigger story is I also don't feel a sense of neurodiversity pride any day in this country. And I also don't see as much momentum in my neurodiversity work in this country as I do outside the country. Most all of my work is in Europe right now, and um, in terms of the organizations I'm working with uh for the most part. And so it's interesting to me. In fact, most of my clients, like the individuals and couples that I see, are in the states. And the reason why they need the mental health support is because they're challenged so much with the ableism at work and the lack of support. So my clients are increasing in the states, but the my work and awareness is actually increasing outside of the states. So it's not as supported on an organizational level. Okay. I'm gonna stay on you.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

Why?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Why would that be? So my my guess is that my country, unfortunately, right now, is in a very uh fear-based place. Um, there's a lot of fear of what's gonna happen any given day that will impact our economy, our mental health, our safety every day because we have a reckless leader and government. And so there's that fear. There, what I'm hearing a lot is we're not gonna make any big moves from organizations. We're not gonna make any big moves now because it's very uncertain as to what the future will bring. Let's wait until November to see what the midterms bring, which will give us a little bit more sense of what the economy might be like, which might inform our budget to be able to bring out. Outside people in. Meanwhile, let's overwork the neurodivergent employees that we have who are willing to be advocates and let's in-house have them do all the presentations and ERD leads and workshops because we're going to just pull from the people with the lived experience, which is at least something, but I'm finding more often than not over a fear and a pause in general. In general, obviously there's a few that aren't like this. But just like with the kind of DEI backlash, I'm still seeing a lot of hesitancy for people to uh step into more work for organizations to be more inclusive and more equitable. Even to the extent that when I talk to organizations here, they'll say, we love the message, but we need you to do a workshop and not use any of these words, intersectionality, diversity, equity, inclusion, um, justice. Like, okay, but what do you want me to talk about in neurodiversity? This is gonna be really challenging. And so I say, okay, we could talk about it from the level of respect, like respecting all functioning styles, a needs base. So I so I have to accommodate quite a bit for that barrier.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Yeah, okay, so let's stay on this. If I'm I'm hopefully not exhausting you, but I want to invite you to ask whatever you want. But I know, and it's really speaking to the cross the pond beyond, right? Because if we made it all about the big orange man, we would be understandable because that's where the power is right now. Alright. But in the UK, there is a stronger understanding on neurodiversity and poverty, not the way that I would like it, but certainly in a space where people are trying to understand it, and I get asked. And then I could be thinking much more about well, that poverty being an extension of what might be a school-to-prison pipeline, and how many people with ADHD, for example, are in prisons and unspeakable because of poverty and such and such. Now, that that's not the only reason someone's in prison, but it would be fair to say that prisons themselves are noticing this much more and choosing to lean into it more, regardless of who's in charge. Then you could say there's amazing work um being done in this field, you know, lots of great heroes that I I know I won't name properly, but but one that's close to my heart is uh Amanda Kirby, and she's a professor. Um but I might say, and Amanda Amanda will be a guest on the show, I'm sure, hopefully, uh in in heaven, I will ask that. But I think that Amanda will probably say, yes, prisoners are paying attention to yes, they are, but not the level they should be. And I think that's I would agree. And I might say But one thing is happening is we're seeing more neurodiversity specialists talking about the menopause and the specifics to women women have been historically, culturally, socially, economically deeply uh underrepresented in neurodiversity conversations and impact. And that's changing in the UK. More women's groups about neurodiversity and women specifically is changing. I'm gonna give a big shout out to Dear Friendly Brighton Jess Rad, who set up Neurocurious, which is about everybody, but in particular under uh a badge or allegiance to uh a concept of womenhood, you know, and how neurodiversity specifically impacts women and in part hormones and in part menopause and pre-menopause or post-menopause. I know I've said a lot there, but what I want to touching on is is America doing anything like that to your mind? And if not, why?

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Well, there's quite a bit of conversation about menopause. Um, this is the good news in in America, which is which is wonderful. Um I personally just did a uh keynote and a talk connecting neurodivergence and menopause, and I've never seen another talk here that connected the two. So I don't think that that connection um is very frequently talked about. Um certainly there's a lot of people talking about how ADHD in particular um as with hormonal changes and estrogen changes, it impacts uh ADHD and and other forms of neurodivergence. But um, but I personally, and I know we might disagree on this, if the in my opinion, the definition of neurodivergence is um is anyone whose functioning diverges from neuronormativity, society's idea of what is normal or ideal, um, which includes all the mental health challenges and includes a lot, a lot of um things way beyond autism, dyslexia, ADHD. But I believe it includes menopause. I believe it includes PMDD, uh, you know, which is a hormonal shift um during menstruation and a lot of challenges. But menopause, um, the the mind changes, not just for women, but non-binary and and trans uh people as well, experience menopause. Um and that that the impacts of our mind, but also body, but also the fact that we're marginalized similarly uh through ageism and ableism, um, and you could throw in sexism and a lot of other isms in there, um, make it a neurodivergence, a form of neurodivergence. So I consider menopause as under the neurodivergent umbrella. Um, and that I don't hear very often. And in fact, I I get a lot of challenge from it, but it's the same people who challenge me on bipolar being under or or traumatic brain injury. It's just it's just a more expansive, inclusive umbrella that I'm yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

No, I I'm I'm I'm with you. Um I'm very with you. Um yeah, I know, I know I've said it before, I'm gonna say it again. That that I think human experience makes us all neurodiverse, but but we're not all marginalized because of it. And and and that's the work, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah. And to me, that's a difference. Like we're all as a human species neurodiverse, um, but neurodivergent speaks to the people who are marginalized.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Yeah, I I I agree with you. My hesitation, and I think that's and it's delicious that we have that slight difference, but not much. In your in in some what I know of, and the joy I've had in getting to know you, it's not much of a difference. I suppose because I think as a person of colour, I'm already divergent from a lot of power modelling, with or without a diagnosis for something, or we've even without a need for a diagnosis, we're just divergent from power relationships, and I think that there's not a woman in the world that couldn't testify to that at some point as well. Um so I suppose my problem is probably I'm being a stickler, but I do struggle with the term neurodivergent. But what in the absence of a better word, I don't really have one right now. So, but what I do think is there are people whose way of learning and teaching have been welcomed, particularly in the 20th century. Uh, that may not have been welcomed before that, but they've particularly been welcomed in the 20th century, and I think the people's skills and different assets that were welcomed hundreds and hundreds of years ago and probably deeply, deeply needed uh are less welcomed now. Just as deeply needed. Yeah. Um, but I don't know if I would call that divergent because I like I said, the social structures and the super social structures make people of color divergent by the very nature of their colourless skin and how they access power in the world. And and whilst I can say that we are global majority voices by the virtue of our colour skin.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, I think the majority of people are neurodivergent as well. Like, I don't think it's neurodivergent from a statistical norm or a bell curve. It's I think most people are neurodivergent for a variety of reasons. Some are intersectional, marginalized identities, and that very few people are neurotypical if they are even truly neurotypical, if they're not masked neurotypical. Um, and at any point, somebody will become neurodivergent, and most people do become neurodivergent as they as they age, uh, um, just like we all become disabled in some way.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

Uh yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it brings us back to the barriers that we face rather than labels. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, so I want to ask this question then in the context, I'm again, I want to ask to really park Trump for a second. Because I still would say, how is this different under Biden or even Obama?

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 31:16

Maybe I wouldn't like to go further than that because I'm not sure we'd get very far, particularly under Reagan issues. But I think you could look at Obama and say, well, there was a kind of hope for an egal. I'm maybe dressing this up, but at least for the U US internally, there was a kind of hope for an egalitarianism to happen in America. Maybe not with foreign policy, but certainly for US citizens. It wasn't like, hey, there's a major space around how people partake in autism or ADHD under the Obama time, right? No. And and and would it be fair to say there was a conversation about prison, to your knowledge? I mean, it might prison services and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

I did hear more about the school to prison pipeline during Obama years, but I think it's interesting to note that once you and in interesting, like with Biden, he was very much pro-um LGBTQIA rights. And and I think all these liberation movements are certainly connected. And so when you have leadership that's trying to reduce the barriers around racism or leadership that's trying to reduce the barriers around sexuality or gender identity, then you're also going to start to um organically unlike unravel and challenge the barriers around neurodiversity. And so I feel like I feel like right now that's why we're at a bit of a standstill, because we're not getting any uh progress in any liberation movement of any kind, you know, other than like this this white man in power with a lot of money. And so so I so I believe and hope that whoever's coming into power next, like like this is this is my dream, you know, like uh somebody like Pete Buddhej, who's a a brilliant uh thinker, uh gay man, married to a man, raising beautiful children, like has like an excellent uh way to really get to the root of it, saying, you know, not only do we need the diversity um of people and and thought and functioning styles, but like that that's that's what makes you know humanity beautiful and is our strength. And like anytime people challenge him about his sexuality, he turns it right back around to like just any difference, any difference. And um, I'm not quoting him at all ill eloquently, but um, but I think if we had a leader who's who's just like, it doesn't matter what label we're talking about, whether we're talking about somebody who's gay or autistic or or black or an immigrant or whatever, like we're talking about different, different people and honoring and respecting and not dehumanizing and stigmatizing and pathologizing anybody. Like just like, and so I I'm I'm not holding my breath, but that's that's you know, and I think people can still do that within the leadership that we have right now on a smaller scale, personally and individually, and in small groups and in small, you know, it's communities. But um, but I think it will be helpful when we have somebody in leadership who's consistently giving that message and challenging the yeah, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

I mean, I think what you've just said there is the nicest part of and most nicest part of neurodiversity pride I've I think I'm gonna hear this this month, right? Um, because what you're touching on is our and you know, and those of you who are new to the podcast, I'm just gonna say, but those of you who've heard it or following us because we talk about this. This is our collective liberation.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

That you cannot be well if people of colour in your nation are not well and not safe, not welcomed. You cannot be well, and nor can your children be well if people who are gay are not welcomed or made to feel safe in the world that you share with them. I I truly think this is the evolution of this, and I truly think that a generation after us will be able to hold on to that, you know, in a stronger way, and perhaps in a way that we haven't really seen since the civil rights movements in the 60s. Um I do kind of like action and reaction being equal and opposite. I wish that was true. It's Newton's fourth law. Action and reaction are equal and opposite. They're actually not though, are they, in terms of social outcries. Some social outcries can change a president's mind. Yeah, and some won't. Yeah. And some can be so egregious that lives are lost. Yeah. And despite the number of lives lost.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

It still doesn't move a president. I I'm not talking about this specific one. I know. In in general. Yeah. And I look at America and I think you it has one of its economies, one of its largest manufacturing economies, is those prisons themselves. They are a punitive sentence of a kind. I don't I hope I'm saying that right. But it's actually an extended form of slave economy.

unknown 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

And now with the detention centers beyond prisons, specifically detention centers for uh for immigrants. And also, I'm hearing currently um a push to institutionalize uh disabled people, uh, specifically intellectually, developmentally disabled people, and and taking rights away from families and schools and communities that would that would typically be able to, you know, provide resources. Like so people are quite scared right now about, and that's going back to like many, many decades ago, but but also eugenics, um, you know, and in in just like who's worthy of freedom.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is true, all right. And this is exactly um, you know, uh I think the uh mention I wasn't gonna say his name. The only thing the only honest thing he did or say was that I'm gonna come for EDI, and he did, right? Yeah. Um, but I do think that says more about us, where we were at, and we're willing to fold in three months. And I know that's not all of us, I know a lot of companies said no, we're gonna. I've just come back from speaking in Barcelona for the Working Futures Conference, and it was great. Um and I was deliciously reminding my audience is Europeans. We talked a little bit about the big man in the White House, but what what I loved, and I was very conscious suddenly and awakened to it, that I'm not speaking to an English audience. Uh you know, I was speaking to an international audience and they're Europeans, and they said, and a French guy said, Oh, yeah, but we are Europeans. Now it's really nice to hear that because English people can after Brexit, particularly, it it doesn't do that well. We should, but we don't. And hearing a French man, he didn't say, Um, well, yeah, but we're French, we don't care about Trump. He said, No, but we are Europeans, you know, and as Europeans, we think as a community, to you know, of what inclusion looks like, what fairness looks like. And I was just like, wow, this is just nice. I love the vigour. I loved not having to tiptoe around the conversation. And I could show his picture and say, look, either he sets the pace of the world and the world says that's okay, or the world says no. And and but I also look at Europeans and think, well, I'm in Brighton, I know that's geography-wise, it's on the coast. I'm closer, just 20 miles across that water, and I hit France. I hit London than 60 miles. I promise you, we have a better Equality Act in the UK than anything in France. We have a better inclusion and fairness for marginalized people, be they gay, disabled, elderly, queer, born diverse or divergent. Yeah, better. And I'm not trying to say this because I want to ride France down. I'm saying because if I look at the ADA, I'd even American discrimination uh discrimination I'd still say that's better than a lot what Europe has, be it holding on to itself by Freds.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, from an accessibility standpoint for sure. France is kind of known, unfortunately, for being inaccessible for the disabled people. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Yeah, and and and this was the rest of the audience was not just French, but it was, you know, uh a group of good committed people, but they were from countries that have a historical track record and not being so great on it.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

But also a track record of saying we want to. Good. We want to move forward.

unknown 40:13

Good.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Whereas okay, you're saying, no, we want to take back what we what we did. And the UK has gone, hmm, I never know which way to go. That that does my heading. The UK is just like when you make your mind up, make a stand.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I I've never felt as uh included or s or safe um in from public transportation to the buildings to theaters. It was the it's the only place I can wear the sunflower lanyard um showing non-apparent or invisible disabilities, however you say it, um, that it was immediately recognized by anyone and honored with deep compassion. I was so impressed. In Europe. In in the UK. Oh, okay. All right, right. Not anywhere else. Not anywhere else, not in any of the other European countries that uh that I had visited or places beyond. It's it's only been in the UK UK.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Oh wow, yeah, I do recommend wearing if you're going on a plane. You can you can it helps, it helps. Yeah, yeah, we can spend all time with things, yeah. Um okay, all right. So we're coming to the end of this, and I guess I want to just give uh space for any questions you've got to ask, and if you have any burning ones, but but I I'm I'm really enjoying today's one because we're in a kind of a an interesting space. The World Cup is going on, you know, things in America bring that into a space. Um we're watching things happening about a you know, a lake being an international incident, which makes no sense to me. Um what is that? Say the last part again? Um, you know, the lake, the the the reflecting pool. Oh, the pool, yes. Yeah, and so I'm thinking, why is this making so much attention? But I I that's not something I understand. Um the the uh world wrestling happening in the White House, that's slightly funny, do you know? It's fairly humorous and disgusting, yeah. But then I'm thinking a year ago, you guys really trashed into Zelensky for not wearing a suit as if he were bringing bad decorum to the White House. Right here are having wrestling matches. So it's kind of all these sort of comical things that we're seeing, but the heart of it is still people trying to make their way safely through this work. So I guess if I could ask you one question is if we looked at neurodiversity pride this time next year in America a year from now, and it was awesome, that really good? Why? What did we do? I mean, not just you and me, but what did America do to make it awesome this time? What do you think that they did or would have done?

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yeah, it's gonna it would be hard to do it within a year. Um, because I think there is the awareness. Um, I don't think yet that we're in a play, and there's a there's a little bit of like we've gone from awareness to affirming somewhat, affirming some forms of neurodivergence, but not all. And then there's this responsiveness that we're very, very far from, you know, and and action very, very far from. There's a lot of performative efforts. And so, you know, in a year, I guess what I would hope realistically is that some organizations with a lot of visibility and and power and influence would be not just awareness and affirming, but really, really responsive and and um proactive and um and strong in their uh advocating. And um and And pride, but but more so I want systemic change, you know. Like I think pride is great, but then if we have like pride and you know gay rights and gay marriages taken away, like that's that's not helpful. You know what I mean? Like I I want I want pride and action, neurodiversity and beyond. And so um yeah, I think it would I think it would look like policy change and and uh you know strategic change and systemic change.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

Good. Well, look, here's hoping, I think, for for for for so many ways, because whatever happens in your country, you do set the pace to an Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

It sounds like the UK might need to set the pace on this one, like maybe Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

Like I said, I think the UK is is needs an awful lot of work to understand the barriers that really affect the lives of our neurodiversity folks and our disabled folks. And I think we have to do so much more in the UK to understand what is a disabling situation rather than who's got a disability.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Um and I think we're not even close to honouring what's enshrined in our own equalities act, even though that equality act came out in you know 2010. We're not even close to recognize what that actu actually means. But I also think, and I don't want us to compare good enough with bad practice. Right, right, right, right. I want to compare great, yeah, because great is deserved, yeah. Um, and so I think I'm just gonna finish this that great is deserved, whether it's in US or UK or Cameroon or Sudan or Ghana or anywhere, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:45

I think in a lot of the world, LGBTQIA plus pride has come a long way in beyond awareness and beyond affirmation and to a lot of really great systemic change. And I think that that's a wonderful model to follow as we look at neurodiversity pride or mad pride or disability pride, um, all the other movements.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Yeah, yeah. All right, good. Well, look, we're gonna finish here, I think. And I'm gonna ask those watching is please reach out to us and tell us about anybody that you think should be a guest on this show. We're really interested. This is series, this is episode seven. Uh, and I promise Passion I that by the time we get to episode 10, what we're gonna start doing is having guests on this show. Um, we really want to hear from you folks if you think that somebody whose work particularly would challenge, I guess, some of the conversations that Pasha and I have, that would be great. And by challenge, I mean people who may be more traditionally into uh diagnostics or pathology models. But I suspect anyone really into that will probably be balanced to understand the joy of what Pasha brings to this and me about barriers. But I don't know. We want to throw this to you guys. We want to ask people: can we get a heads around that poverty changes how we understand neurodiversity? That hormones may change the way women get to share neurodiversity. Um, does that apply to men too? I I I don't know. I want to throw this out there. One thing I do know is that the Eurocentric modeling of neurodiversity cannot stay forever. I think it's not relevant, and I think that it is potentially, and I say this with love, if I can, if that's not a contradiction, but I I say this that it is at times reinforcing white supremacy because it's close to being curious about what neurodiversity looks like in other worlds or other places in the planet. It it mostly looks at how they should assimilate European models or Eurocentric ones and how they're supposed to assimilate it better. So that's going to change, and I suspect that we'll just have to, and I'm looking forward to that. I may not be around to really see the best of that, but I do think I'm playing a part in making it happen already. Um and so I just invite you all to join us in this conversation, this invitation, and tell us look, what would you like us to talk about? What guests would you really insist on us having? And what does Neurodiversity Pride 2030 look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Good questions. I hope we get lots of uh feedback on that. And I I love that idea of uh bringing in guests that would challenge that would challenge us, not just mirror what we're saying. And the and guests beyond, you know, the UK and the United States and Europe. Uh it would be especially impactful.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

Brilliant. Okay, well, look, um, this is it for me, at least I think in my head and heart. Um Pasha, I suppose might be messed up. Yes. We're good, we're complete. Yeah. Great. Well done, folks, and thank you for joining us. And as ever, saying Tash, please reach out, please just shout what you need from us.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Thank you, everybody, for joining us. See you soon.