The Uncover YOU podcast
Guiding you to shift reactive patterns so you can experience the YOU underneath conditioning and finally feel secure and connected in relationships. Your host is Eva Beronius - Love Coach, transformational teacher and founder of Embodied Self Mastery.
The Uncover YOU podcast
Ep 193: When They Pull Away (The Avoidant Strategy)
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I’m joined by my friend Pontus for an honest conversation about the pattern many people label “avoidant”—the push–pull between longing for connection and needing space. If you’re the one pulling away, or if you’re on the receiving end of someone creating distance, this episode offers a rare, compassionate look behind the curtain.
Pontus shares what it’s like when the body says no and the mind rushes in to build a case: “They’re not right,” “I’m broken,” “This will never work.” Together, we slow it down and uncover what’s underneath: the fear of an inner emotional experience—and the survival strategy of pulling away so you don’t have to feel it.
Related episodes:
EP 192: 5 Signs of Insecure Attachment (And How to Use Them to Heal)
EP 164: A different look at anxious and avoidant attachment
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Welcome back to this second episode in our series of insecure attachment and how to move an insecure attachment into something that feels way more secure. And I'm very thrilled and excited to have my friend Pontus on the podcast today. We will have a conversation around his relationship patterns and what he's feeling and experiencing happening for him. If we were to put ourselves in boxes, we would probably call him an avoidant attachment style. And in this episode, he talks so beautifully about that push and pull between the sense of wanting the connection and wanting it to do something for him, but then coming back to an experience that he probably had growing up in an emotional connection of now I'm not sure. I need to get to safety by pulling away. In the first episodes, if you haven't listened to it, I really recommend you to go to go back. But I I talk about five typical like signs that I see a lot, like patterns that I see a lot in people with insecure attachment. And they go a little deeper than just like, oh, they pull away or they can cling closer. There's something of what's going on inside of you that I hope you will like recognize yourself in and give more understanding to what's happening. So at the end of last episode, I kind of jokingly said, well, now in the coming episodes, listen for these signs in these conversations. You can actually really exercise your awareness around this by listening for them, by detecting them. And when you start detecting them in others, you'll also be able to detect them in yourself. So a quick recap of them. Well, one, the first sign is here pulled into an automated pattern, like that sense of loop that we're keep repeating this thing. So listen for what that is, right? For Pontus. And then we often have this conflict between two options. Either I stay in this and I feel like shit, or I lose myself, or I have to leave the relationship. I don't get to have both. The third thing, we either project onto them, you are doing this thing, uh, you're the one being clingy and smothering me, you're the one who's not meeting me, or we dismiss what we're feeling. Like our emotions, we either project them onto others, or we're like, no, this isn't, um this doesn't matter, just get over it. So we lack that capacity to be and take responsibility for what we're feeling, like having the emotional experience. Number four, we tend to doubt ourselves or even get critical of ourselves, like, right? We're like, this can't be it. I'm doing that thing again. Um I shouldn't be feeling this. Um, is this really correct? Like, there's a sense of doubt inside, and we tend to give a lot of meaning. Oh, this means that they don't love me, or this means that I'm not able to have a relationship. So here's an invitation to listen for that a little bit in this conversation. Have your little bingo card and see what you can notice, and then of course, go look and see if you can find this inside of yourself. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation. I knew I know I did. I enjoyed it deeply, and that it will give you some more nuance and complexity too. Like what is really going on behind the labels of anxious and avoidant attachment style. Hey Pontus, and welcome to the Uncover You podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:It's really lovely to have you here. I mean, we're friends, and I feel like we've had these conversations anyway, like over the kitchen table or over the phone of like what's going on in our lives. So it's really nice to bring you on to the podcast because our conversations often end up being very kind of go deep and they tend to get quite expansive, but also just the detail of the human messiness. So I'm I'm really happy to have you on here.
SPEAKER_01:I'm very happy to be on as well.
SPEAKER_00:Beautiful. So the reason I invited you is that I want to have these conversations, right, with people that are experiencing, we can call it insecure attachment, but it really doesn't matter what we call it. It's more like the experience that happens or that shows up when we are dating, when we get into relationship with people, and when we notice, like this doesn't always feel so safe. Like my system reacts in one way or another. So I would just love to hear a little background from you of what you're willing to share. Like, what has that been like for you? Dating, going into relationship, what what tends to come up for you?
SPEAKER_01:For me, what tends to come up is when I have been maybe uh on date number three or four or five or whatever, uh some sort of feeling I would say unwanted for my part. Feeling shows up uh that feels is a mix of maybe disgust and hopelessness. Uh, not that I feel like physically revolted by the other person, but it's just like a feeling of like a taste in the mouth that's not very pleasant, and like uh like let down, um, and just an un very unnice feeling which starts my head up in a lot of ways, starts saying things like, okay, what's going on? This is not right, uh, and why is this right, not right, and then looking for a bunch of excuses why this situation with this person is not right for me.
SPEAKER_00:So that's the thing that you start noticing like the most, or how does it show up?
SPEAKER_01:Physically, in my belly, it shows up. Um and also these thoughts, like okay, what's going on? The things that I imagine that I'm supposed to be feeling now when I'm on my way to our third date or whatever, or when I see the person, or when the person is texting me. Uh, there's a lot of things that like my head has told me for some reason, like this is what you're supposed to feel in this situation. Uh, and when that is not true, um then I'm feeling disappointed, sort of. And I can also feel that uh, and this is a bit strange as well, but let's say that I'm in a situation where I'm dating someone, and then you know, it's like the day can have sometimes the days are not awesome, you know. You can have a day where uh you're forced to stay at home and to be by yourself the whole day, uh, and then when you start to think about other person, that of course is colored by the rest of your day that you're having, and I can sort of see that, but also the other way around when I feel very happy or I feel something nice in my body, and I feel like, oh, and look now, I'm also dating this person, and see like uh this is how it's supposed to feel, and then I sort of catch myself and say, like, okay, now you're feeling good about life, and then you're trying to force, squeeze that in to your feeling about this person, and you're making up a false pretense and whatever. So a lot of things going on, basically.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and it sounds like there's uh almost like a stress about feeling this way.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yes, most definitely so.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So what what happens for you around that? Like, oh, now I'm feeling this. What the heck do I do about that? Like what what happens with that layer?
SPEAKER_01:It's it's a strong voice, I would say, and it definitely puts me uh in an internal battle, sort of. Um I have not been used to meeting it with compassion. Uh instead, it's sort of like this uh battle, and then I lay flat on my back, and it's like some sort of uh inner judge is saying that you see, told you so, told you so. There you see, da-da-da. Uh, and I want to push that feeling away. That's like this disgust feeling and whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So there's a judgment about that being there, like this isn't good.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And your inner voices, the parts of you, do they tend to make that about you or the other, or something else, or both, or a mix? You know, it's like, oh, see, they're not the right person, or see, I'm not able to, something's wrong with me. I'm not able to be in connection with people. Like, where where does it tend to go?
SPEAKER_01:It's a mix. Um, it's saying that you see the person is not right, you haven't found the right person yet, and also uh this touching on this belief, like you see, you can't, you're not able to do this, you're not able to uh be in a relation with someone, and it's interesting also that I've heard you saying this too on your podcast, and I heard other people saying this that people tend to say, like, I'm broke and it will never work for me, but no one really is broken, even though I can incorporate. Yeah, I've heard all that, but I am actually broken. Um and I don't want to believe that, but that's that is something, of course, that is alive in me that believes that also.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So there's an underlying thought. So when something shows up in relating that isn't according to your projection of what it should be, or parts projections of what it should be, then something goes, see evidence. This means I'm not able to have a relationship.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So would you say that that's kind of the underlying belief? I'm not able to have relationship.
SPEAKER_01:Not sure. You know, it's we are complicated, our minds are complicated. So what's really, really, really behind all this, I mean, there's so much childhood stuff to unpack and all that. Uh so it's hard to tell.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So from what you know, I know you've like been doing work on this, right? And meeting with the parts and just like shifting this and having compassion for what's there, and even for the judgy voices and all of that. But with your understanding of it now, and maybe more than an intellectual understanding about what you've been discovering, like what is it that's going on for you?
SPEAKER_01:So I can tell you an experience that I recently had uh when I got this uh when dating a person, like I had this feeling coming up, this sort of unpleasant uh hopelessness, disgust feeling, whatever, you know, this thing that I'm used to, like, oh, not this feeling again. So then instead of trying to push it away or thinking or reasoning, whatever, I sat down and I sat for like I think it was 40 minutes or something, just being there, feeling what's what was alive in my belly, and keep repeating to myself, even though I didn't full heartedly believe it, but I repeated to myself, like, okay, this part of me, you know, I I love you, I love you, I accept you. And then thoughts came, and then like, okay, let's okay, thoughts, but let's go back to the feeling and just feel it, feel it, feel it, feel it, and like it's not going away. Okay, never mind, it doesn't need to go away. I'm gonna be here with it, with it, with it. And after that time, it sort of my body started cramping up a bit, and then I had this something happening in my belly, and um a deep burp came up, and it was really like profoundly deep for my belly and a sense of liberation after that. Yeah, so that was not intellectual, it was just it felt like something deep inside, something old. I didn't even see where this came from, whatever, but it felt like this is something that's been stored in me that was sort of uh felt and liberated.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So it sounds like, and tell me if I'm reading this, hearing this correctly, but a part of you were afraid of having that experience of that feeling.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um for sure. A part of me have been afraid of that feeling for a long time. Feels like when that feeling is comes, it's like, oh man, okay, it's not gonna work this time either.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It is that's like this catastrophic scenario. When this feeling comes up, it means oh now this is gonna happen, and I'm gonna have to have all these uncomfortable conversations with people, and I'm gonna let them down, or you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So there's uh non-allowance of that feeling, there's a trepidation, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, this feeling is not good. We don't want to have it. So instead of moving through it, which you did this time when you sat down with it, like running from that feeling.
SPEAKER_01:No, it was it was lovely to be able to do that and to not run away and actually see what happened. And it feels like you're being chased by a tiny, tiny dog, and as long as you run and it's following you, and it's like and then you stop and you look at the dog and you let it bark and bark and bark and bark, and all of a sudden, it's like okay, it's done barking.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, I I've been in chase mode for a long time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Or running away mode, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So this is, I mean, this is what I see happening again and again, right? In relationships. This is what we do because we're afraid of an inner experience, of an emotional experience. We play that out and we make it about the situations, like, oh, they're not right for me, or I'm not able to have a relationship, whatever it is. See, like we bring meaning to that experience, but it actually just points to we're afraid of having that emotional experience, much more than the connection itself, or them doing something or not doing something, or me fucking it up. It's like what experience would that bring up inside of me? And that is often what we're afraid of having. It sounded like you kind of met with that monster.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you like went into the cave with the dragon, and you're like, ah, it's actually a little bunny. Like it's not exactly it needs to be held and just loved on, and yeah. So it sounds like that was a somewhat moving experience for you. It's like how did it feel after? How do you feel now around this emotion?
SPEAKER_01:It's not like I look forward to it and love it, but also sort of I do look forward to it because the next time it comes, I'm able to meet it again.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So it's a little bit my shoulders are a bit more ah down for that, which is lovely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I hear you like you've built your self-esteem a bit. You're like, hey, I can handle that. And it doesn't need to mean it doesn't mean that it's this or that. Because I think these are the things that make us more capable and mature in relating, that we can meet with what's coming up inside of us. So we won't know if this person is right for me, or not, or if um I need something else until we're really able to move through the emotion. And in my experience, that's often also when intimacy and connection actually deepens, that we dare to be with that experience. Ooh, this brings up uncomfortableness inside of me. This brings up fear about them leaving, or that I'm not gonna be enough, or that I'm gonna let them down, or that I'll be smothered and just have to stay in something and loose myself, right? Being in that experience, like you so beautifully did, that is kind of what opens up the door into connection and intimacy.
SPEAKER_01:Can I tell you what's difficult though?
SPEAKER_00:Please.
SPEAKER_01:Um like I am a person who thinks a lot, and then thoughts come up and rational and whatever, and doing this is you know, it's very I don't want to say unscientific, but you know, it's it's sort of a strange thing in one way. It's not what you used to do in everyday life. Sit down and and love an emotion, you know. Uh so instead it's so easy to go by instinct. Uh unpleasant, run away, da-da-da. And also to like this, it takes trust uh for me. Um to really trust that okay, something I'm gonna try something else and see what comes up. Uh so that's what I mean. The difficult difficult part to actually trust and do something else. Now I gathered one piece of evidence that doing something else could be different. Uh so it's just I need to remind myself like this voice, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Like, okay, okay, okay, okay, I hear you, but let's try something else. Yeah. Not easy to do all the time, but but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Not at all. And I think this is so important to talk about. Like, it's not easy, it just isn't. Because one, the other neural pathways have been practiced so many times. Like, just imagine how many times you've practiced doing that. And I'm not even talking about like this specific pattern, but just this impulse, this reaction, like you said, oh, let's run with this thought, let's believe it, and let's react according to it. So that that is something that you've done, I don't know how many times per day for your whole life up until now. So that's a pretty good like accumulation of it's a habit. It's in your muscle memory, it's in your nervous system memory. It just does it. And to to break a habit like that and do something else and forge a completely new neural pathway, yeah, it's humbling to the ego. And that's why we often don't do it, right? Like forming a new habit with anything is hard, right? Okay, I'm gonna start going to the gym, I'm gonna go earlier to bed, you know, whatever it is. But now, number two, add that this pattern often has been put into place by protection, like from a survival mechanism. Something felt so overwhelming with having this feeling, this experience. So that my unconscious is taking over and making sure I'm protected from it because I can't really be in that experience and have a prefrontal cortex decision about it. My survival, my amygdala have now taken over. So those habits are even more like their fortune, they are unconscious. They're not just habits that happen through repetition only. They've been put into place by a strong emotional experience. So for me, it's so important that we have compassion with ourselves about this too. Because this is also often when we have a strong inner critic where we get stuck in the sense of, see, this is so hard, you know, or seems like other people can do it, or Eva talks about it on her podcast. So, you know, but I'm failing at it, right? It's like, no, it is this hard. It really is. And like with a lot of things that are hard in the beginning, it's so worth it, you know, learning that new language or learning to play the guitar or or dancing, you know how hard that was to begin with. But when we do put in the hours in a way, because it really is to get it as a muscle memory, to get it from the head and into the body, I mean it's so worth it because it's a completely new way of relating to yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. It's also another thing, again, my my mind thinks this is tough, is that uh since I haven't had this, let's say, deep connection with a partner, perhaps. Uh, this deep connection, intimacy, whatever, in in like the romantic setting. Uh I don't know what I'm missing out on, what's there, what's possibly there if I choose to believe it that after going through all this. Uh what I do know is there if I just end this now and go out on the hunt again. It's it's the huge dopaminergic reward of going out, meeting a new woman, and getting all this. Oh, look at this, I'm I'm worthy of someone's uh intimacy. Yeah, uh, because that is a shower of pleasant feelings.
SPEAKER_00:Um to prove something inside of you, I'm hearing, and let's see how that resonates, but I'm hearing a part of you that is longing for that good warm shower of loving attention and worthiness, right? See, yes, she's saying yes to me. She wants to go on a date with me, or she wants to kiss me, she might want to have sex with me, right? It's like, ah, I'm approved of, I'm loved worthy. Yeah, that's like a high. But it just lasts so long. And then that other feeling comes in uncomfortableness, kickeness almost.
SPEAKER_01:But it just somehow like I knew I know that this is not well good for me, that's hard to say. Uh I mean there are good things with touch and uh oxytocin and oxytocin, not that something else. Uh no, maybe it is oxytocin.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oxytocin for sure.
SPEAKER_01:I was confused. I'm mixing it with oxycoton, whatever. Uh however, like if if it's one thing when it comes to tobacco or alcohol or uh candy or whatever, like these things are obviously bad, you know, it drains your health. Yeah, and you heard about like there's talks about sex addict and whatever, but this is just what is it? I don't know if it's addiction of validation, sort of uh, which is not frequently talked about, perhaps. Rather, it's you could say, at least from a male perspective, it's quite to be the guy who lays many women, you know, it's it's a trait that is rewarded.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh to be the guy who smokes a lot of cigarettes, it's not a trait that's rewarded. So that also, you know, it has a different uh it has a pull, yeah, sort of, uh which is a bit tricky to get rid of. Uh, but like what I can see, like the the back side of it, is if I continue going about that way, I'm always gonna be me coming up with like an empty cup and saying, like, please fill this cup with your acceptance, please fill this cup with your acceptance. It's like uh I'm never putting away that cup, yeah. Uh, and the illusion that I've been having, following for a long time in my life, is that well, you know, after this many women or whatever, after like enough in this cup, um, then it's gonna be filled, and then I'm gonna be uh free instead of sort of realizing that this is just like saying that yeah, if I have enough money, then as long as I have this much money, like it never feels like it's it's a bottomless cup, yeah. Uh but it's hard for me to put it aside still, you know, and to realize that there's something else, yeah, even though I see that it's more healthy, perhaps. Does that all that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Of course, and again, I think there's a lot of um pieces on this chessboard that we have to uh take into consideration, like as humans. We we have this old reptile brain and just a physicality to us and and the biology of of uh surviving and reproducing. So it's also just like in your biology to go lay many women, right, for the survival of the species. So that is one piece. But then as we have developed other parts of our brain, right, as humans, and we have this uh really fascinating ability to be aware of ourselves as individuals and as beings, much more than other animals, living things, we can observe ourselves, right? So now we've grown this awareness of this, and we tend to use that awareness to judge ourselves, right? Like, fuck, this is here, this is the wrong thing, this shouldn't be happening. Instead of all this like understanding for it and compassion for it, oh my God. Imagine, like, no one has been where I am as a human being, no one has gone this far in the in the evolution of human consciousness. I'm I'm the cutting edge of that, right? And of course, there's gonna be a lot of conflict between my biology and between my unconscious and between cultural um, yeah, just blueprints and things that we have inside of us. So I think it's also just this taking away all the judgment about being where we're at. It's a complex thing to be a human and to navigate these, but somehow we I think and I think really this is the piece that makes that create suffering. Like we make ourselves wrong for where we are at instead of right, instead of understanding, oh, with thousands of years and millions of years of evolution and everything that's like it makes sense that I'm exactly right here. So I think when we can start to accept where we're at, and it doesn't it doesn't mean that we don't want to change it, but that's when we have a better playground to change it from. It's like saying, right, it's like, oh, I want to run the marathon, that's a big dream of mine, and I should be able to do it tomorrow. Like that's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure. But if we're like, I really want to run the marathon, and that means like right now I can I can run two kilometers, like that's all I can do. So I know I have a journey ahead of me. But I really believe that that is the human journey, that's what we're here for. But we tend to take it backwards and say that's where I'm supposed to be already. But like taking that journey is is what we're here for.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, it all makes sense, of course, that I wouldn't pick up a surfboard for the first time and say, like, now I'm gonna be a professional surfer or running shoes or whatever. But why is it so easy to believe that okay, I want to be in a relationship and now I'm gonna find someone that's gonna work?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think a number of reasons we're being fed this narrative from growing up around, like, oh, romantic movies or stories, and it's just like we get one image of or a couple of images, right? But what it's like, and there is this sense of, oh, as long as I find the right person, right? It's all gonna be my life is gonna start, you know, and it's all gonna be magical. But for me, what that signifies or what that points to is that parts of us, and I say this, this goes for a majority of humanity, we're in a child-parent dynamic in our relationships. Meaning we have unresolved things from growing up, just being a little stuck in one developmental phase that we haven't moved from. Like, oh, I had this need for attention and just knowing that I'm loved and appreciated for who I am, for what I am, without needing to prove myself. Like, oh, that piece maybe didn't get met, you know, it wasn't resolved yet. So it wasn't modeled to me how to relate to myself that way. I never like grew up into having that experience. So I'm I'm I'm geniusly enough trying to solve it. Like my psyche is trying to solve it the only way it knows how, which is off in a five-year-old level, right? It's it's reaching to someone else, it's reaching to a parent. And when we can start to see this, which is also a humbling thing for the ego, right? Like, oh my God, I'm five in this, in this sense, in this area of life and relationship, I'm five. Okay, well, then that makes sense to not put too much pressure on my five-year-old. Like, how could they know how to do this? So there's there's this sense of, ah, I have to learn from a different place, but also then go pick up that five-year-old and let it learn as a five-year-old. Like it won't listen to my analytical thoughts about this or reading a bunch of books and learning the, you know, the site, the psychology behind it. I actually have to go in and relate to that part of me the way that it needed when it was five, the way it's sitting with and being unresolved. Because I think you're pointing to so many, so many good things here of like, yeah, otherwise we'll keep reaching outside, right? And relationships will have a certain flavor then, because we're showing up with an empty cup. Like, I need you to complete me, I need you to give this to me. And it might not be for the whole of the relationship, but for a piece of it, there's gonna be that sense. And if they don't do that, we'll start feeling really bad. So it's our how we're feeling is now conditioned by how they're showing up, what they're able to bring, um, and our own capacity of like being with the emotions that are coming up inside of us. So I I I believe that growing up in like an emotional maturity is both growing the capacity to be with all the things that's been overwhelming for us, right? So that's you can call it more of the masculine, like the challenge. I'm taking on the challenge, I can do this, I'm expanding by meeting the challenge, but then it's also to believe that to stand up for for the goodness of of what I want, to not only go into challenge after challenge after challenge and make life so so hard, because some of us do that, right? We're like, okay, let's take on this challenge too, and this relationship is really hard, but I can move through it, and we forget the other side of like, and I get to have what feels good to me. And when we start treating ourselves that way, yeah, that five-year-old inside of us can start to grow up, but it is humbling because we need to pick it up at a five-year-old level. We can't expect it to be 18 or 25 or 37. It's uh it just isn't. It's five, and we need to start there.
SPEAKER_01:It makes a lot of sense. And also why this is a bit more complicated. Part of what you're saying about being fed so many times the happily ever after story that you kind of perhaps also project on every person that you meet who are who is in a relationship, also. It's like in another world or dimension where everyone else just picks up their shoes and run Marathon the first day, and I don't I'm not able to do it. I guess that could break me down as well, you know. But here's a different image, and also what you're saying then is not only that that we're not humbled for the work that's needed, but also that it's this is so it goes back, this is so close to our heart. Like, if I'm not a perfect marathon runner, I don't need to run a marathon, but if I'm not good at being in a relation with someone, then I'm gonna be alone, you know. That's that's a big it's a lot of skin in the game here. Yeah, right. It's so significant. Um I remember um so I'm doing this martial arts jujitsu, and we have a belt system. Uh and it took me some years to go from like the first white belt to the blue belt level. Uh, and after a few years, I was like really reaching for that in my mind. Like, when is it happening? When is it happening? Why is it not so what it started out as like a hobby that I loved turned into like uh uh reaching out for something that I couldn't get, uh and it it frustrated me, and I felt like I'm gonna stop doing this now. Um but what I did instead is I I switched around to only pick out those because there were there were things, different kinds of sessions all through the week. I only went to the ones that I really enjoyed, which was the morning trainings, which was calmer, it was a nice group. I I really felt like this is where I really enjoyed the training, and I only did that because I like this is fun, this is what I enjoy. Lo and behold, I came back to the passion, and also I got my belt shortly after. Uh, so just follow the fun, do this because it's fun, that is such a powerful thing, and I also think that can be um forgotten here. Like you said, the the the male challenge, challenge, challenge. This is a goal, this is a goal. And you forget that old cliche of the journey being the uh what is it, the goal is the journey or whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, that that's exactly it, right? Because if you're going to your Yutsu training and you're beating yourself up the whole time, and see, I couldn't do that move, I'm not there yet. You're probably not gonna get there. You're just like punishing yourself in there, and and and we know from behavioral um science research, you know, that that's not the ideal environment for a brain to learn in. It just isn't. When you start connecting with it with things that feels fun, yeah, that's how it learns. So that's also why I'm saying like changing that inner environment, because really what we're doing is we start to get secure with ourselves. We start we go from being a very unsafe environment where we're constantly beating ourselves up into a safe environment where, like, oh, what I'm experiencing as a human being makes a lot of sense from how I grew up, from how culture, society, what what's been modeled to me? It makes a lot of sense. It's not my fault, and it is my responsibility for how I want to live my life and how I want to experience things, but it also is like with this instrument that I've gotten. So it is what it is. So, like now, how do I want to play that instrument? So, yes, the having fun, which can feel very hard, right, when you go into a deep core wound of something that feels really oh, I have so much fun though, reaching into it. And it can also feel escapist, you know, like, oh, let's just get go have fun on dates. But so I think there is an aspect to this that I tend to look at as an antidote, as maybe like the red pill for the narratives that we've been fed around relating, relationship and romantic partnership. And and it's like the first thing is the understanding that a lot of that is coming from a child-parent dynamic. You're gonna save me, just scoop me up and make me feel good. That is child-parent relationship, and it makes sense that we have a lot of stories around it, you know, fairy tales and romantic comedies, and because a lot of us have that unmet need, we have that wound inside of us, it's pointing to something in the human psyche and in the human evolution, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that is what relationship, partnership is. I truly believe and experience that when you meet someone that you're truly fascinated by and you know, attracted to, and you're like being pulled to that person, inevitably we act as mirrors to each other. I think I believe that that's part of why we're here. We're in this hall of mirrors, where consciousness experiencing itself through each other. So we're gonna get a reflection of what's going on inside of us. So if we're not ready for the uncomfortableness, for the ickiness, for the repulsion, I think it's very important to talk about that. We will be repulsed by our partners because they're holding up a mirror to what's going on inside of us. And we're gonna look at that mirror, most of us, and we're gonna say, like, I don't To be with you anymore, and you're a bad person, or you're icky, or you're repulsive. But what we're repulsed by is actually the image of ourselves that they are holding up to us. And I it's very important to talk about this because now we get a different narrative, now we get a different thing to compare our experience with that isn't this fairy tale thing. So even with the most, and I I it's almost like when you hit the gold in meeting someone that you're really fascinated by, someone that you really, really like a lot, someone that you fall in love with, someone that you're attracted to, I think that will also bring up like the deepest reflection. You'll get to meet with the most uncomfortable aspects of yourself. And vice versa, which is also really uncomfortable and humbling, right? Because you want to be this beautiful person for them. But actually, what you're doing is holding up this mirror too so that they get to see their shadow and all their darkness and all their deepest wounds. And that's fucking scary to be that person for someone as well. So to me, it just makes so much sense of what you're describing. It just is an emotional experience that you've had sometime in the evolution of pontus. You've had this experience in connecting with others, in emotional connection, where you felt reaching for them and like, ah, yes, give me what I need. Oh, you want me? This feels so good. Scoop me up, right? I'm loved. And you've also had that experience of like, I'm not sure about this. This feels too much, or what do they expect of me? And now I have to fit this image of something, and I'm gonna make disappoint them, and I feel smothered, and I feel like I'm losing myself. It's like it's just an experience that's repeating itself because it's been unresolved.
SPEAKER_01:And what's how how do we go about resolving these kind of things?
SPEAKER_00:What you're doing, right? Sitting with that emotional experience. I think, I mean, a couple of steps here. Awareness. When with awareness, like how that awareness is being used, we can use awareness to punish ourselves, right? Oh my god, yeah, I keep repeating this pattern, da-da-da-da. But the awareness needs to go to ah, it makes sense. Compassion, right, for ourselves. It makes sense that I am where I'm. If if you're looking for information and it gives you more judgment, it's not the right information. Look for information and theories that gives you more compassion and acceptance for where you're at. And then even for the part that's judging yourself, right? Even compassion for that part. It makes sense that that's there. So now that we have awareness of like what's going on, okay, this is a five-year-old inside of me. It's experienced this before. We didn't know what to do with that experience before, so we couldn't really process it. It's just unresolved inside of me, undigested food, basically. It's sitting there. Okay, now I can help it. So now we need to understand like what will make it digest that experience. And it is exactly what you describe doing, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, it's it's like the digestion uh metaphor is fits perfect.
SPEAKER_00:The burping happened.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's very much guttural, all these things.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Something moved through the digestive system and like burp, like, okay, we've been processed somehow. And it usually means that we need to do it again and again, right? And show up with that for a while. So it is to meet with that which we fear the most, sitting with the icky feeling of like, uh, and understand it. Why is this here? I am afraid that the other people, other person will just devour me and I'll disappear into a relationship where I'm just playing the nice guy and being the people pleaser and looking to their needs. And it makes sense that I'm pushing them away because I don't want that experience. Like we're meeting with our fears. So it's pointing us to a place where we're undeveloped in a way. Where we feel like five. I don't know how to stand up for myself. I don't know how to set boundaries around what I need. So instead, we're afraid of that will happen because we don't have the capacity to do it yet. So it's both, I talk a lot about this, right? It's both healing and is growth. It's healing for that part of you that had that experience and like letting the tears come out around it, and like, oh my God, I feel so unloved, so unmet. Like, yeah, and it's understanding that that five-year-old doesn't know. It feels unsafe because it doesn't know how to stand up for its own needs. No mom, no dad, like I can't carry these emotions for you, said no five-year-old ever. Okay. They just didn't because we don't have that capacity. But we can teach that five-year-old what was never taught to it. So that's the beauty of like we now get to reparent them or coach them in a way that they start feeling safe in relationship because we start to see, oh, the reason I'm having this ick about them is because I don't know how to navigate this dance of dating in a way that feels good to me. I don't have the capacity to step into a relationship without a sense of losing myself and going into people pleasing. Okay, so let's you know, conquer that area of relating in a more mature way so that we now feel safe.
SPEAKER_01:So, just for me to understand, you talk about relationship being the parent-child dynamic. Is that a metaphor that you use for like how relationships usually tend to be, and that's not very helpful, or are you saying that it's always like that, but you can, by being aware, uh do it in a more mature way?
SPEAKER_00:I would say that it is that way most of the times, and that's how it's supposed to be, because we are mirrors to each other. So we all get to meet with this. What tends to happen that isn't very helpful and that keeps us stuck in the loop is that we react according to that pattern, but we hide the fact that it's a five-year-old and we, you know, we um like, no, but you are really mean to me. You are really smothering of me. Like we we stand up for our right to be five-year-old, and we project it onto the other. So the opportunity here is to not say, oh, that shouldn't be happening, but it's what we do with it. So, you know, I am an advocate for not putting your five-year-old in anyone else's lap. It is not, and we know that feeling, right? When someone else put their five-year-old in our lap and say, like, you have to care for that this part, you have to be this for me, you have to be safe in this way for me, or else. Um, and we're like, I'm not sure I want to be in a in a relationship with a five-year-old, you know, I have enough with my own five-year-old. And we also, I think intuitively know that whatever we do is not gonna really help at the core. It's something that each person also has to learn to do for themselves. And then we can be helpful with each other, you know, to each other. We're like, oh, I understand, I have the same thing. But if someone is just completely letting us be responsible for their wound, like is we know intuitively it's like it's not gonna work. I can't I can be support you while you take care of your child. So we need to be willing to care for our own hurt and pain and ickiness and withdrawal and you know, all the things and and see that it's a five-year-old that we need to put on our lap and care for. And now we're gonna feel like we're actually stepping in with a more filled cup. Because also what you're describing of this push and pull, and like, oh my god, I well, I'm pursuing you now, right? So that you will give me acceptance and love, and and and now I'm pushing you away a little bit. The the more we're healed, and the more we're embodied, I mean, we can sense this. If you and I would be dating, I would feel this, right, in you. And I wouldn't, I would feel that you want something from me. Energetically, you want something from me. And I want us to come together because we feel we want to give to each other. We're like, oh, my cup is overflowing. I have so much love for for myself, for life. It doesn't mean that I don't have bad days, right? But it's like it's overflowing from my heart, and I'm like, ah, I want to give that, I want to share that, I want that reflection back. I want to amplify that feeling.
SPEAKER_01:That is very difficult.
SPEAKER_00:It is. And it really starts inside, like having these parts feeling overflowing with love because you're treating them that way, which is sitting down and listening. Oh, you're you're feeling disgust and disappointment and hopelessness right now in this dating situation, but it's not only about this, is it? Like tell me more, listening to that part. I really understand what it is that it's feeling.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, this is not what the rom com has taught me.
SPEAKER_00:It isn't, isn't it? It's like as soon as you see as you see her across the room, and then you'll know that it's her, and then you'll, you know, live happily ever after.
SPEAKER_01:And it's interesting though, because you never see that. You see a little snapshot maybe of the ever after. Yeah, I guess like the the cliche is you see them three years in the future when they have like uh a few kids or whatever, uh, and they're on their lawn and like oh honey, da da da, and then and credits, and like okay, so everything no fight ever happened. Now they're right. It's just it's silly, but it works somehow. Yeah, and that's okay, that's all the proof I need. Yes, I got it.
SPEAKER_00:They're accepted again because it speaks to an emotional longing that we have inside of us. So I think that's why it works so well. We're like, oh, there it is. Oh I knew it was possible, you know, like oh, I want that. Yeah, it's it's it's a child's longing for love, for acceptance, for being seen, being met that is sitting there a little unresolved inside of us. But I would I would say that the more I've because you know I've moved through and keep moving through like all the stages of this, right? I've come from a very insecure, disorganized attachment style, which I could swing both ways, always, all mixed up within 10 minutes, you know, to start to feel more secure in those situations where it's like, huh, my nervous system isn't responding in the same way. There aren't like the same thoughts there anymore. And I would say that this love that I'm able to experience inside of me, but then also with others, is so much better than what my five-year-old could have ever imagined. So I think it's also important to not give up on you know the story of love. Not throw all of that out and say, like, okay, relationship is just hard work, life is just hard work. It's like it's uh no, it's also just an amazing, vast, very powerful experience of love. But that child parent thing isn't the only experience of that. And we're looking for that because it was unresolved. But once we move past that, love can deepen even more. There's more. We're gonna start wrapping this up. As always, it's really fun, nourishing to have these conversations with you.
SPEAKER_01:Likewise.
SPEAKER_00:Anything that you're like taking with you from this conversation, anything you're feeling or many things, many things.
SPEAKER_01:Um it is a reminder once again that uh I don't need to be so hard on myself. And that you know, I can only do things in my my speed, and I'm here because a bunch of things, and just be empathic about that.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it is so important, I think, to have these conversations to to see that, right? And also how we talk about insecure attachment, I think or on social media or in like content creation and YouTube. It's it gets so for me, it becomes labels that we put on ourselves, and then we're like, uh, okay, I'm this and I'm that, but really have the deeper understanding of the development of it, why it's there. And then for me, the label doesn't is not as important anymore. It's just a presence with the experience inside, and sometimes yeah, the labels make us skip that. Like, okay, now I understand it, what it is, but we skip the somatic embodied uh experience, which is what will resolve it or transcend it.
SPEAKER_01:It feels like the label is helpful to give you some sort of clue. It's I mean, you can look at the I think it's called the disk model, these things that people are uh red, blue, yellow, or green or whatever. Uh when you first discover this and you see that oh, this person is so much uh this is a red person or yellow person or whatever, like these four categories. Uh, in the beginning, you're all psyched, and you see everything there. But as you mature into that, you see that okay, this tells me something, and it's not the whole truth about the person, life is more complicated, but it's at least it's a tool for me to know that if this person has this tendency to be uh to care a lot about uh the fun of it all, of this person really wants the details of it all, whatever. I can meet that in that person and it helps us interact, but there's so much more to it. Uh, so I think that's probably the way the attitude to have toward this uh attachment theory as well, that it helps you understand some part of yourself, but it's far from like the full story of it.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. It can point us somewhere so that we grow our awareness and we open our eyes to it, but then yeah, more nuance, more complexity. And like everyone that I talk to that, you know, you could put a label of anxious or avoidant attachment, yeah, there are similarities there, but there's also like a unique experience of what they've been through and what they what's coming up for them. So and and that's what I think we need to get better at being with complexity, nuance, not the black and white. Thank you for this conversation, Pontus.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Really helpful. Thank you for your openness and sharing what's happening inside of you. And you know, I know that you're exactly on the journey that you're supposed to.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Very nice to hear your reflections as well.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening, and I hope this conversation gave you some more nuance and hopefully compassion about where you are at, and that you shouldn't be anywhere else. It's just the willingness to take the journey that is what you're here for. So this conversation with Pontus, I think something that it points to to me is like, yeah, we're all in that wound where we've ended up somewhere or where we had an experience growing up that this situation doesn't feel safe. It feels overwhelming. And we just adapted different strategies to get back to safety. For some of us, that's like pulling away from connection. And for some of us, we're trying to get to connection more, we're like clinging for it. So the understanding that we're all coming from a similar place, a similar wound. So in the next episode, we're gonna talk to someone who then would be labeled as anxious attachment that tends to like try and get that connection even more when things feel unsafe. And once we've grown our awareness this way, we'll start exploring what does it feel like when your systems start to feel more secure? What are signs of it, and of course, how to get there. I'll talk to you next week again.