Ep 194: When They Pursue (The Anxious Strategy)

This week in the attachment series, I sit down with Jessica to explore the anxious strategy—what’s really happening beneath the urge to reach, pursue, obsess, and “make it safe” when someone feels distant. Jessica describes the somatic reality of anxious attachment: the hyper-attunement, the meaning-making in the gaps, and the visceral panic that can erupt when a text doesn’t come back—despite knowing, logically, that you’re “fine.”

We talk about how healing isn’t about becoming less sensitive—it’s about becoming a secure base for yourself. Jessica shares the practices that are helping her move through abandonment waves without collapsing, blaming, or performing for love: nervous system discharge, surrendering to sensation, and reparenting the baby part that’s still waiting to be held. This episode is a compassionate, nuanced look at anxious attachment that will leave you with more understanding—and a clearer path toward secure love.

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Transcript

Introducing Jessica And Her Journey

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Welcome back to our third episode in the attachment series where we're exploring what insecure attachment actually feels like in the body, and we start to gain more understanding about it so that we can start shifting into a more secure attachment if that's what we want and long for. In this episode, I talked to Jessica. She has a similar journey to what I experienced that I thought I was pretty relaxed and maybe even avoidant, but realizing that some of that has been numbing out for most of my life. So I didn't feel any like much at all. And then going more into an avoidant pattern where I would like reaching for distance rather than stepping into the relating. And as I was healing my insecure attachments and uncovering what was there, yeah, that's when I got to a part that was more anxious. So I had a lot of different things going on, and it was really layered, and that's why I want to have these conversations in a more nuanced way. I think a lot of the conversations out there are very black and white, they are very labeling, and it doesn't give us this deeper understanding. So if you're like, but that makes it so complex, and will it will I ever heal and will I ever be done? Well, I think it points to this fact that you don't really have to understand it. It becomes complex when you're trying to intellectualize it. But the journey through it is through your body, is through your felt sense, is through your nervous system, as you'll hear Jessica talk about as well. So again, you're so welcome welcome to revisit the five signs from two episodes ago that I talked about, like how insecure attachment shows up, and to listen for it in Jessica's description as well of what she's experiencing. However, you want to listen to this episode, I think you'll find a lot in it, either in just un understanding and compassion for the anxious pattern and that feeling of like we're gonna die because I'm not seen, and the understanding that there is an underlying need trying to be met, but also that that's not gonna get met by reaching for that connection from others, not from that place of the wound of the unmet need. So I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did, and let's dive in. Hi Jessica, and welcome to the Uncover You podcast. How does it feel to be here?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

It feels good, thank you. I'm uh ready to um expose all of my abandonment wounds and trauma for all of the world to hear.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

What a courageous thing to do. But as as you know, since you're in my programs as well, it's like it's a little warrior move, right? Because when we confess to them instead of just like holding them in in shame, that is such a fierce move to make, right? Because we're like, oh, I don't have to hide this anymore. Yeah, yeah. So celebrating you for for doing that, most of all, hopefully for yourself. But I'm also very grateful that you're here and wanting to share with people because I know it's super helpful.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

It's for a good cause.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Right. So uh what I'm talking about in the podcast right now and in this series around insecure attachment, like moving from insecure to secure attachment. And uh I invited you in because you describe yourself as someone with uh anxious attachment. So can you tell us a little bit about that? How has that been showing up for you in your life? Like Yeah, let's start there.

Beyond Labels: Insecure To Secure

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Sure. Well, I think you opening this conversation around um getting rid of these labels around anxious versus avoidant is definitely relevant here because it's more of a matter of insecure versus secure, right? So I would say that my attachment system um is um maybe flipped throughout my life and healing journey. Um so I would say when I was younger, I might have played a little bit more avoidant most of the time, minus a few really scary encounters that definitely led me to be in relationship dynamics in which I felt very much on the pedestal and secure and um safe in my position, um, and then could play the more avoidant pole. Um, I also felt like earlier in my life, um, before I had processed a lot of trauma and it was still quite frozen in my body, my system was more collapsed and shut down. So I wasn't accessing so much of those anxiety states. Um, and I think on top of that, there was a few cards that I could play in my youth as a woman. I had my fertility, I had um no baggage, I had, you know, my thinness, all this. And as we know, the world has shown that that's our ideal version of women is this more infantilized uh feminine. And I kind of intuitively knew that. So I had a sort of almost a little a little bit of a confidence. Um and as I enter into have entered into uh singledom in the dating world in 2026 as a midlife woman, I'm having a very different experience in my uh attachment style. Um, I think that a lot more awareness around early abandonment wounds um has sort of uh, I don't know, I guess I'm having a more flipped experience. So I guess this is more of a story of uh like an attachment system in healing and how it can kind of go through those different evolve into different ways of being insecure.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

I love how you talk about that, but that's actually my experience as well, right? That when I was younger, I played it super cool, and I I wasn't even aware that this pain or this pattern was here. It was like unlayered as I moved through it and started to be like honest about it, and the protector layers have kind of released its grip. It's like, oh, this is in here.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Absolutely. That's totally been my experience because I think I've just kind of penetrated down uh through my healing work to get to a place where I was strong enough to even withstand that pain because there were encounters um in romantic connections that were so overwhelming to my system that I went straight to the safe guys, the nice guys. Yeah and now I'm sort of challenging myself to go to really um have my meat my worth and my value be reflected in a real, you know, uh against another powerful human. And I can see myself being really challenged in that way, um, and really having to go deep into experiencing my um and loving myself, whether or not somebody shows is showing up in a way that I want.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah. So so what is what has been showing up for you in this, like in this past year? What have you noticed? Like what does that feel like in your body? What's the situation that they do or don't do, or and then what happens in you?

From Cool Avoidance To Unearthed Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Well, I came out of a long-term uh relationship and marriage of about 13 years. So I was partnered from about 29 years old until 42. And I just feel like the way people had related to each other and forged connection had changed a lot. And so I was quite naive. And so a lot of connections are formed through messaging platforms, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and as somebody who's I identify as neurodivergent with a childhood trauma history, and um as a very highly sensitive individual, my nervous system is very active. I'm hyper-attuned. Um and so having these sort of this these distancing effects of how you communicate and engage with somebody has really lands very hard in my body. And um, I've really, really struggled navigating that um and uh felt like I've definitely been at a loss in terms of how to um, I don't know, just feel connected and safe in in in connecting with new people.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

So I'm I'm hearing kind of okay, in this new dating scene where you're messaging with people, matching with people, whatever it is, and then you're like, but are they there? And now it takes time to have a message back, or or how can I interpret what's being said in that message? So it has activated your system that you describe as highly attuned because it's like it's looking for that connection, it's looking for, hey, are are am I safe here? Is there attraction here? Do I like this person? And it's kind of like scanning through the message, but it's it's not enough to feel the other person.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, I mean, you described it perfectly. That's exactly what it is. There's so much gap in meaning and so much space to interpret, and uh so much uh power play, I would say, in that somebody can really withhold and not reply. Um uh and well, I don't know if you would agree with this, but I feel like messaging platforms definitely privilege the avoidant person, um, which I also happen to believe primarily falls in the realm of men in the masculine. Um generally speaking, women in early dating might display more anxious, um, I would say. And so I feel, yeah, I feel like really uh like I don't know, harmed by the way the world is set up uh and how it's actually dehumanizing to to the possibility of intimacy and vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Um so I I feel tremendous like agony in my body in uh trying to forge new relationships the past few years. I I've been making this joke to myself. It's like, okay, there's been recessions, wars, uh political unrest, and then there's dating in 2026.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

The same amount of nervous system activation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

That's how I feel. I feel like I'm in the wars.

Modern Dating And Nervous System Stress

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Right. So I'm just curious as you're describing that, because uh and I'm you know, I'm I'm pretty sure that you might have been exploring this, but is this also part of a protection mechanism that used to keep you safe, right? I have to scan the room, I have to make sure that I'm safe here, I have to form a connection this way, I have to read their facial expression, I have to read their tone. And if I can't, like that means to your system that you're unsafe because that protection layer can't be there.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And um I definitely want to own that, and I've had to meet some parts um that feel feel those things. I guess what I would say is um if I trace this back to its origin story, um the wound sort of to me feels like an absence, a neglect, um, and something not there. Um if I think about my early childhood, you know, and I had two kind of very young, immature parents who had their own like routine runaways basically, and well-meaning, but just not emotionally available. So for me, the wound seems to be a lot around the space, the a feeling that they're not there, that they're dead, like I can't reach them, that I'm waiting.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Um, that's where I can really feel a lot of the pain. Like, why am I not being seen? Yeah, why am I not getting the attention that I deserve? Um, what's wrong with me? Why am I not worth that um effort? Yeah. Like, why are why isn't there effort being made? Um why am I having to lean in so much? Um so yeah, that's where I I really feel that hypervigilance and scanning, uh, I would say obsession, where if I uh there's a feeling like if I if I stop obsessing, if I stop thinking about them and worrying, then that then they're never gonna come back.

unknown 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Right. If you if you let go of the control of pulling them closer to you, there's no sense of them coming to you, reaching out, picking you up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Yes. Um, and I have felt that experience on repeat for about two years. Um and uh it's like such a somatically overwhelming sensation. Like it feels like my skin is burning um and like a lot of pressure, and I actually get this like choking sensation, like I can't breathe, like they're starving me of oxygen in their silence.

unknown 16:40

Yeah.

Messaging, Power Plays, And Ambiguity

SPEAKER_00 16:41

So I actually like do feel like I'm dying. Right. And it's like rationally, I'm like, just okay, this is some random dude off the internet, like honestly, who hasn't replied in in a couple of hours, but I feel like I'm dying.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

So yeah, and this is the trap that we often get into, right? Because we're like with our grown-up mind, we're like, this is insane. Why am I acting this way? But as you so beautifully did right now, of like tracing it back well to an infant or a small child, they make that makes total sense, right? And I'm almost hearing an that sense of uh emotional attachment didn't happen. A sense of that, you know, kind of bond locking in and just like, hey, you are ours, you belong here, you're part of the tribe, and we love you no matter what, because this happens in the emotional attachment to between parent child, right? So it sounds like that didn't really happen, and your infant antennas are still out there looking for it.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah, yeah, and there's a sense of like right now in my like search for love, I'm I f I feel like I'm trying to feel something that I've never felt before. You know? Um, and so I don't even know how to feel that inside that like level of being bonded and intimate in a trusting way, not a toxic, codependent way, which is what I'm used to.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Right. Because there's that too, right? The other end of the scale when we're like, oh my god, let's go get it, and then someone might respond with a similar need or a lack, a hole that wants to be filled. Now we're like entangled and meshed in that connection. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I never dated when I was young. Like you would like somebody, you'd have sex with them, and then you were like together. And then that was how I got involved in relationships, is like, okay, you're all right, I'll take you. And then there was, and then so now I'm forcing myself to go through this process of slowing things down, not jumping into bed, um, getting to know someone, making sure that we're compatible. And so I'm trying to slow my attachment system and not attach immediately. Right. And um, it's one of the most um painful mental disciplines I've ever experienced.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

So do you have of of curiosity and and for other people's to hear what what we can share with each other what we're all doing? Do you have like a practice, a somatic something regulating your nervous system or turning towards certain parts? Do you have something that you're like, this is what I do, this is what I reach for when this the most painful thing is coming up?

Tracing The Abandonment Origin

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Um yeah, I have um I had to first realize that my anxiety was mine and not really to do with the other person. And when I had that epiphany, I was like, oh, I would have anxiety like no matter what. So honestly, let's stop making it about the situation and just own the feelings in my body. So um things I will have to move really hard to discharge all of the panic sense. Um, so I might have to go hit the pavement and like run really hard or dance really hard. Um, I've been doing some cold water therapy. I live in Scotland and I've been going into the North Sea in February and like punching the waves and growling and screaming and just like swearing. Just like at my frustration, not being able to be met at the depths that I know I'm capable of. Um and uh I think uh yeah, so there's that, just a lot of like discharge and movement, and yeah, just working really at that nervous system level, and also just um I think uh I really have been um training myself to uh trust my my somatic experience as opposed to um making it wrong. So when I have that level of intensity, um I'm I'm celebrating it as part of my aliveness and um embracing it as as part of my as my of my power because I think like being in a female body and like living in a feminine existence, I want I want to um be like my ferocity, my intensity is not too much. Like this experience is real for me, and there's um there's actually a lot of wisdom in it because I actually believe that my intense levels anxiety are actually telling me that the person that I'm engaging with is not an appropriate person for me to be communicating with, and it's my body saying, Hey, actually, I don't. Think this is the right direction for you. So I've been actually trying to uh approach my anxiety as a as a teacher rather than the the control the controller. Yeah. It's actually my body has like its wisdom is saying, hey, actually, maybe this isn't right for you. Because I think to a certain extent, a good connection will bring a lot of relief and a lot of soothing, even if you do have some anxiety.

unknown 23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Whereas I'm trying to engage with uh people that have um maybe not the same like emotional literacy or depth that that I think I've recognized as one of my core needs to pursue any sort of relationship. Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

So I'm hearing you doing something very powerful, right? Which is unshaming that aspect of you.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

It's like, yeah, this is here. Yes, this hurts. Yes, there's frustration, and yes, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yeah, it's sort of a surrender, a surrender to it, like an allowing of it to happen. Um, and so like say the guy ghosted or withdrew has stopped cal communication, and I'm having the I love this term abandonment melange. Have you heard that phrase? So, like I'm in this swirl, I'm in this storm of shame and pain and abandonment and fear and anxiety. Like it's just I'm in it, and it's like eating me alive, and I'm just like surrendering to that sensation and not acting on it. And so my behavior, I I I've been very I'm experiencing sensations, but I'm not acting in unhealthy ways, which is something I can be really proud of. Yeah, and I'm allowing um people to detach or not come toward me. I'm I'm not uh being angry with them or mad at them or blaming them. I'm I'm allowing things to find its own alignment and my alignment. So I feel like um by sort of really like just totally handing myself over to the high intensity abandonment in oh my god, whoa, on fire. I feel like I'm kind of like I don't have any left. Like starting to burn itself out, and I feel like the alignment inside is I am starting to find that detachment, which is if you think about attachment, the opposite is being detached.

unknown 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Not in like a mean way, not like in a cool cucumber, I don't care way. Yeah, but in a way that you're an autonomous sovereign being over there, and I'm an autonomous being over here. And if we find our alignment, great, and if not, fine. I'm not trying to make anything or force anything to happen.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Right. I I I like the words like dependent or independent, but in between is interdependence.

unknown 26:05

Yeah.

Somatic Overwhelm And “Dying” Sensation

SPEAKER_02 26:06

So it's like, yes, I am my own person, and you're your own person, and we're coming together, and then we're creating something, and there needs to be commitment from both sides for that to happen, that we want to create something. But when there's dependency, that's the kind of attachment where we're gripping and like, okay, we're one, and I need you to be here and do this and say that, or else, you know. And independence is like, I don't need anything and I don't need anyone, and I, you know, whatever, I don't care. But the interdependence is like the space between. I am independent and I want connection.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah. Because my attachment system flipped from being like more codependent and avoidant to kind of having this really long dry spell where I can't seem to get anybody to move toward me, I've it's like I've been doing uh this uh training in my system to get comfortable with space.

unknown 29:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah. So what used to be signaled as a threat by your system before, like someone's not there, they're taking a step back, there's I'm by myself. You're like conquering that experience as safe as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm on that path. Right. No, which is yeah, not yet perhaps not yet conquered, but like I feel like actually I've been out with somebody who is um very wealthy and extremely attractive twice, and I've not heard from him in over a week or less than a week, and and I'm like, I'm not panicking. Like, actually, I'm okay, and I'm not really sure if even he's what I want either. So I think you know, they always say relationships are about love, but I feel like relationships are about power. So I'm just like staying, I'm like, what I don't care what happens or who shows up. All I really want to be committed to is staying in my power. Yeah. While I'm in relating contexts and not abandoning myself, whether or not they abandon me or not.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Right. So you've flipped the idea of what relationship should be like then, because for that little child inside, for them it's survival, for them it's food, for them it's love. You know, it they need that. But you're like, hmm, actually, my inner leader right now is deciding it's something else. The relationship is a dojo where I get to train myself to not abandon myself. Yeah. So I hear you like changing your commitment from the idea that the little child had to like, hey, I want this is my Reason, my intention for relating right now.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Absolutely. And just really observing how I'm showing up with others, like with the person I just referred to. I noticed I was doing a little bit of performing and a little bit of seeking a validation. Like I showed him this painting I made, and I was and I could, I was like, ooh, Jess, that's like a little girl saying, Hey, look at me, look at me, dad, look what I made. And um, and it occurred to me that I was doing that in that dynamic. And then I decided actually, I don't, that's not how I want to be showing up in a relationship, so I'm no longer interested in them because for whatever reason that person brought out that side of me. So there's a sense that I don't need people, I'm not gonna make people show up in ways that I need. I I feel like I'm getting better at finding and choosing or being only available for the people who just naturally already are.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Right. And even have the capacity to choose, right, in your nervous system that you can like, I have this dance move that I can take a step away instead of needing anyone and everyone to like me, love me, choose me.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Yeah.

Practices For Regulation And Discharge

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Yeah. Yeah, because I've been with choosing the people who didn't like me, love me, choose me for two years. So it's kind of like I'm kind of like okay with it now. I'm like, okay, fine, I don't care anymore.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Right. Going through the fire of that experience.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah. It's like, I give up. Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah. But also I'm hearing something when what you're describing of like surrendering to that intensity of that experience is it's embodied feeling, right? Or what I call embodied feeling. It's like, okay, you leave the story, you let it hang out, and you understand why that story was created, but you're also not putting your faith in that story. Oh my god, I'm not worthy, no one's ever gonna love me, they're not choosing me, they are really bad people, you know, whatever story is being told. And we're like letting it hang and just dropping into the felt experience because that's what you so beautifully have been describing in this conversation is like, well, that was too overwhelming for a part of you to feel when you were young. So you shut down, didn't feel it, and then like as you uncover the layers, you got into like, okay, it's it's easier to protect from that experience by being avoidant, by being the one who like doesn't really care. And now as you've been moving kind of backwards through the layers, to like, okay, I'm ready for the intensity in the experience that a part of me had growing up. Let's go there, let's go down into the basement of this dark place that felt too overwhelming before. So, yeah, feeling what hasn't been processed before without believing the story and reinforcing it. That is what I hear you describing.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah, that sounds really right, Ava. And I think you you talk about as well, like um, you know, instead of complaining about people being emotionally unavailable, this is me being available to myself emotionally, and then in that like spaciousness of me having that capacity for intimacy in myself, I can really start to receive that through the other, and I'm noticing like little signs, little no little progress in the way that I'm connecting with people, how that's happening, which is super exciting. Yes, because like this is it's just like the thing that breaks my heart so much, it's just yeah, what the wanting to feel intimate the intimacy and the closeness.

unknown 35:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Because when you're an avoidant, in when you're in a relationship and you're avoidant and you're pushing away, that's that's that's fear. And then when you're anxiously trying to move strive towards someone, that's fear. And neither of those are conducive to being intimate and present with another extraordinary human being, yeah. And that's just like the feeling that I crave so much, yes, and that's the um tricky piece too, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:18

To entangle like what of that is coming from that child, and like, oh my god, I crave it so much, like I want it so much, and how much of it is like, yes, because that is what I want. There's something in that for me that is art. I want to be in that experience, I want to co-create in that, like, oh, that's where life becomes alive and juicy and like ugh.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yeah, absolutely. And then just de-centering romantic connections, putting my relationship in connection to myself first and foremost, and just I like how you've talked in the past about, you know, if you have needs, go get your needs met. So being with my girlfriends and having intimacy and closeness with them. If I need touch, going to get a massage. Yeah, you know, like, oh, and then just yeah, really tuning into um, well, I think one thing I've learned is the female nervous system is regulated by oxytocin, whereas the male nervous system is regulated by dopamine. I've learned that recently. And so that's one reason why dating is basically fucking horrific, is because you get these little dopamine hits of messages. And so this is actually just fucking up my body, and I'm not getting the touch or the closeness, which actually soothes and co-regulates me. So I'm just focusing on like hugging my children, hugging my mom, you know, getting getting those needs met. So I'm just I'm using my resources and my power and agency as an adult woman to to take care of myself and make sure that I'm in a good place to even entertain the idea of being intimate romantically with somebody.

Befriending Anxiety As A Teacher

SPEAKER_02 38:10

Yeah. And I know some people that are listening now is gonna like come to me with a question which is like, oh, so it means we we're not we're gonna meet all our own emotional needs. So then what's the reason to be in a relationship, right? But this is for me, this is like why wait around for the right relationship to have your cup filled. Like, no, you fill your own cup so that it's overspilling, and then you can step into relationship because you have something to give, and it's it's not with that same black hole that you're trying to fill, and now everything becomes super life-threatening important, that they're showing up in the right way, and if they're having a bad day, right, when you need that hole filled, then yeah, it things are gonna feel terrible inside of you. So it's it's realizing that why sit and wait like a child for mom, dad to come home pick me up. It's like, no, I'm actually a grown-up now. I can give that to myself. And there was something in what you were describing, Jess, of like, um I heard also like a lot of resilience in this, right? Okay, I'm I'm surrendering to this experience and just like being in it and now powering through in a way and going out the cold plunches, and like you you've grown, yeah, right? You've grown your resilience.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

I feel like I'm fighting for my life right now, honestly, to move through anxious attachment and to move through abandonment moons. Like, yeah, I am like I am like in it.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Right, and like Navy SEALs training academy something. So but something that made me curious with what you were describing is like I'm wondering how much time have you spent, and I'm asking us your coach too here, but how much have you time have you spent with that little baby? Yeah, that infant inside that's like, hey, my tentacles are out. Where is the emotional attachment connection that I'm primed for that is in my biology and that I'm just like sitting with my antennas out and looking for?

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yeah, absolutely. Um I will I will answer that question, but one thing that sort of popped in my head alongside that that I want to quickly mention is all of the um the being drawn and pulling towards the unavailable people that I've been experiencing is a highly eroticized situation for me as well.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Um, if you think of anxiety, it's an arousal state, right? So like all of that sort of uh like feeling of absenteeism, of like craving and fantasizing had this real like sexual charge to me, which is pretty twisted, right? It's all like so. Um so I've kind of I'll try, I've been kind of untracing that back too and training my system to find safety and consistency and steadiness, like super hot. Right. And so I guess um for whatever reason, when you asked me about about working, showing myself love and compassion, I thought of that because um yeah, in one of my various abandonment melanges that I've been in this storm of pain and shame, uh I had quite profound, um almost like altered state journeys of of meeting and holding an infant, Jessica, and knowing that she's so special and so wanted and loved and cared for. And um yeah, no, I guess thanks for the reminder to to keep holding her um and loving her. But I I feel I feel her there and that we're holding hands and growing up together.

Interdependence And Staying In Power

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Beautiful, and then yeah, that makes a lot of sense that you're like, oh, I have that experience, and then what you're describing of kind of starting to come out of things or not reacting in the same way anymore makes a lot of sense to me because this is a crucial piece. Like if we're just leaving her in there without that need met. Yeah, that's just that's just gonna keep calling for that. So we actually need to time travel back to that version of us, and you know it through the the pillars and the practices inside of Era of like, yeah, we're we're imagining we're holding that part of ourselves, that little baby in our arms, and we're like giving it what it didn't get. Yeah, and I would make that part of like as you're going through the storm and feeling all the sensation to make that connection, like, oh, that's little Jess, that's baby Jess calling for connection. So also to move your attention to because like it's amazing to hear all your protectors have grown, like their capacity and resilience, and we're like, we're not backing down from this experience, we're here, we're gonna be in it, right? And it's amazing because what they had before was running away from it or protecting from it or blaming others, right? Or putting it on them or projecting. So they've grown their resilience, but also somewhere it needs to come down to that soft place inside of you that actually wants it and needs it, and to also not just do it in the relating well, okay, I'm not gonna choose you because you bring this up in me, or I'm gonna step away from this, but also actually like turn inward towards that part and like I'm here, I love you, I love you so much. Can you feel my heart? Can you feel the connection?

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Absolutely, and um that's been a big, huge piece, and you know, I've had nights lying in bed next to that little girl that was waiting for mom to call or waiting for mom to come home from work, just being with her. Um, you know, that baby who was never picked up or held by dad, and and like um, and then that's like I feel I do feel this growing sense inside, like, of of just that I'm here. You know, I'm I'm here, like I'm I'm here, and that gives me like like such like an a new untapped like range of power in my being.

unknown 45:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

And what's interesting is in my own like research and studies, I know that like in early infant and child development, the way that we even like understand that we're an individual human being is through our parents and caregivers' gaze and holding and them like mirroring back to us. That's how our brain is like, Oh, I'm a person. Someone is looking back at me. So I must be someone, uh yeah. And so I spent most of my 20s and 30s, like in a chronic state of depression, and like base, I I literally felt like I was invisible.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

And there was definitely some like depersonalization, like wasn't sure if I was alive, you know? Um, and so like, yeah, I can feel that like I'm here, I'm with you. And looking at you, I'm watching you. And like mirror work, looking at myself in the mirror too, and like just seeing that too, you know?

SPEAKER_02 46:54

And it it really is that. And there's something about being seen, not just oh hey, do you have clothes on your body and are you cleaned up and here's your food? But it's something about being seen as an emotional being that creates that sense of I. Like also that I matter. Is not just the food on the table and the clothes on the on the body. It's our sense of I is created by you're being seen in your emotional experience, and your emotional experience matters.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Yes, absolutely. I matter, my feelings matter. Yeah. Um I never really I think you know, when you have like unprocessed trauma and you're just having conditioned responses and relationship dynamics, and you're constantly just freezing and fawning, yeah, you know, and you're constantly just like caretaking the other, which is how most women and girls are conditioned to behave. Yes, you know, and I've always been like just very conditioned in a feminine way to um put other needs ahead of mine. And um so yeah, taking these bold steps of like being the chooser and the picker, and like these are actually my standards, these are my boundaries, these are what I need. Yes, is like a pretty bold step forward for me in in how I'm relating to the masculine.

Self-Observation, Standards, And Choice

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Yes, it's a huge step, and something that's again to the grown-up mind or logical mind, it can sound so simple. It's like, yeah, of course we should be choosing who we want to be with, but it's more than that, right? Because this lives, this pattern lives in the unconscious and it lives in the nervous system, it lives in the body, it lives in the little animal. So we can think that way how you know however much we want to, but it won't change the pattern in the nervous system of like reaching for it. And for me, as you know, this the the that's not an error, because that is that part of you uh longing for the attention, it's speaking up in this way, just like babies are crying. Like we we just need to uh retrain ourselves to what that signal means. It doesn't mean, oh my god, I'm broken, there's something wrong with me, I'll never be able to have relationships, I'm faulty. It means, oh, I have a place inside of me that's hurting, and it wants my attention right now.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

So to retrain it and and start listening for that as the signals, like something is tugging my sleeve. This all this anxiety is coming up now, and it seems like it's all about the situation or this person over here not responding or not choosing me the way I want to, but the anxiety is actually coming up because a place is hurting inside, and my job is to turn towards it and to meet that unmet need inside.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Yeah, absolutely. This is why you call your program embodied self-mastery, you know, becoming uh really cultivating a level of mastery in terms of um mastering. I don't know, I just love that phrase, a self-mastery, and I'm I'm training as a self-master because it is like a whole new level of um experiencing yourself in life. Uh uh and the emotional realm. Yes. Um it's such a uh an intelligence um yeah, and sort of like using the somatic process to decode that and be with it is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

And for me, like the mastery of it all, it's more artistry, right? Like you master an instrument or uh art form. It's not about like, oh, I'm the master of this, I'm taming it somehow. No, it's learning to play the instrument in a skillful way. And then we have to also learn what kind of instrument it is that we have. It's like, okay, there's attachment trauma here, there's non-met here, there's pain here. It's like, what instrument am I playing so that I can be true to it and learn to play that instrument and not wish that I had a, you know, uh a cello when I actually have a guitar, like to be true to this experience and learn to play it.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Absolutely. And like I think a lot what I've experienced in the dating world is a lot of kind of flatness in people's human experience. Yes, you know, because when you have your healing journey and you go and do this work, you have these experiences, and so I it's like that's been part of my frustration is I feel like I'm a whole orchestra and I'm talking to people who are playing one fucking note, right? I'm trying to get them to hear my orchestra, yes, and so I think that's where I've reached a turning point where I've stopped the self-blame, and there's something wrong with me, and like, oh wait, actually, they're not able to even see this, like they're blind, right? Like I'm on a whole other color spectrum that they and not blaming them for that, but not making them do it either. Right. So yeah, I feel like my instrument is uh, you know, like 16 string guitar or something.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Playing and playing the symphony to someone who can't pick up on those frequencies, and you're like, Can you hear it? Can you hear it? They're like, no, can't. But like it's okay, like I can hear it. Yes, exactly. So it's like, let's start play for a different audience, or let's play with others who are also playing a symphony, or you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Yes, and I'm that's what I'm trying to tune into and look for and just be super anchored and present in my life because I often have throughout my whole life, I've often had this sensation of um like eyes looking at me, or the absence of eyes looking at me, or the desire to have eyes on.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

And like, and then this sense of alienation in myself that those eyes aren't on.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

And that's the that's the lack of um being rooted and anchored in my own being.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

And so I've been um making that one of my meditations to give yourself that experience.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Yeah. Instead of making it wrong, like, hey, I'm giving my myself exactly what I'm longing for and what parts of me are hurting for not having.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Yeah.

Embodied Feeling Over Stories

SPEAKER_02 54:31

Yeah. And there was a piece that I I I just need to circle back to before we start wrapping this up. But you taught you mentioned, you touched on the attraction in like the avoidance or the space or people not really wanting you. And I uh, you know, as we talk about it in the the embodied relationship academy in era as well, it's like we're all mirrors to each other, and we will reflect back, other people will reflect back our own shadow, and we tend to often hear that as like, oh, my bad traits. Like, no, they're reflecting back to you what you haven't, what's been exiled inside of you, and that doesn't just mean what's been hurt, but it also means like something that might not have developed. So when we are deeply attracted to our polarity, to our own shadow, because to me it's kind of like God being horny at the other spectrum of God, is like the other thing over here that I'm not an expression of yet. But it's it's this intelligence in it, it's this wisdom in it, right? Because we can also learn from each other. So that thing that that person is doing, like taking a step back and having a lot of space and caring for themselves and like self-regulating, it's like, oh my God, it makes me so frustrated and anxious because I haven't opened that door to that place inside of me. Like that's a language that I can't speak yet. That's an instrument in the orchestra that I'm not mastering yet. And we can keep blaming them, right, for doing all of that, and you're hurting me, and like this is terrible. But it is our mirror and our tutor, our mentor in that way. It's like, here it is. You might not want to be with this person, but you might want to learn a skill that they've gotten really good at. And if they're willing, they might look in the reflection and see, oh, like this is really shadowed in me, like really going for the connection. That's something that I haven't conquered. So I really think that that attraction, there's nothing weird about it at all. It makes so much sense and it goes so much deeper than our idea about sex because it's it's much more like life force and how kind of God wants to see themselves in the reflection of us, of each other. Like I want to look into your eyes and I want to see another aspect of myself that I might not be able to see in me. So attraction also goes so much like sex goes so much deeper. It's this, it's polarity, it's like, ooh, here's something that I don't I haven't conquered yet. Let me learn from that, let me touch that, let me lick that, you know, taste it, fuck it, you know. I want to be penetrated by it. I want to penetrate it. So also like yeah, daring to hang out in these polarities for me, it's a lot of growth. If we're like just uh going flat and like, oh, it's only the safe that's that's attractive, like, yeah, maybe not, maybe not.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

I hear you, I hear you so much, and um I think the best sort of lens I could take in my experience for the past few years is I am I'm not a victim, you know. I refuse to be victimized by these situations, and um I'm getting in a lot of trouble with a lot of my girlfriends for with for not being such a man hater these days, and actually trying to uh um you know promote and understand. So I think this is this is my experience of trying to yeah, really understand and be curious about other people's experience, just as I want them to be curious about mine. And yeah, not being victimized by by other people's um behaviors and and yeah, I I feel that a lot with what you're saying. And I I there is a sense that this dry spell I've I've always gotten a boyfriend like so easy in this past three years. I've had like the longest dry spell. And I'm like, honestly, what is going on? What is happening? Can you not see what is the whole in front of you now? And I think there's some kind of sense that this is an agreement, it's a kind of pact that I made with myself to get through this ancient attachment abandonment wound.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Um right, because it's easy to get distracted if we step into the relationship and make it all about the relationship and like work on the relationship and the other person. But yeah, here you get to really put your attention on you and what's going on inside of you. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I a journey like this will move in chapters and layers. It's not like, oh, you flip from this to this. No, you go from there into a new experience. That doesn't mean that that's the end point, but we're gonna fully be in that experience. It's like, okay, I'm unshaming it, I'm like fully in it, and then it shifts, it keeps shifting into something else because we are taking the journey, right? So I'm um I'm I'm very excited to hear kind of what comes next for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

I am too, I am too, and I feel proud of myself for keeping my heart open. Yeah, you know, despite my like two trucks of emotional baggage that I bring with me into any relationship.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

You're also like unloading. I feel like you're unloading some of those tracks too, right? You're by feeling it, it's like, no, maybe it's not two trucks anymore, maybe it's just one.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Okay, that sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:57

Um I love this conversation, Jazz. Is it anything else that you feel you want to share or yeah, I feel it's important to mention in this yeah, I don't know.

Holding The Inner Infant

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

I mean, you talk about like well, we should wrap up, but I just like this this idea of you know attachment ruptures, like it's in the neurobiology of relationship, and and it's actually a a real physical need for the child to stay safe, to be in proximity to their parents, right? Like this shit is real. Yes, this is not just in our heads, this is about our being alive. And so you think about these these ruptures that happen, and and I guess, yeah, I uh I'm interested in this idea of of this rupturing and how and you tell I've heard you say in the past too, like a heartbreak is your heart opening. Um and so it's just extraordinary to try and relate to other human beings and have these various ruptures and then repair and like finding trust in ourselves and in life and in the universe. Um it's an amazing wild ride we're on.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

It is an amazing wild ride. And what I've found so um hopeful, more than that, exciting, uh extraordinary, is that for all the humans that I've had the privilege and honor to work with and who's let me in into their unconscious and into their psyche and into their emotional world, right? Like the rupture has happened in the connection with someone else. It's happened in the relationship, but the rupture hasn't happened to the self. It hasn't happened to the self. It's like we need repair after a rupture in a connection. It's like, oh, why did you say that way? That it hurt me. Like, let us talk about that till we reach a point where like, oh, I feel understood again. But there hasn't been a rupture to the soul, or like, so sometimes when we talk about this, like, oh, there's a wound, there's a sense of that that we're wounded, right? That there's something that we don't even know if it's gonna be fixed. And is there a scar? And how's that gonna impact us? But my experience is that when something like that happens, when there's an unmet need, like an attachment wound growing up, or like I didn't have that need met, I needed it for my psychological development or this emotional development, it just got frozen in time. And I think it's the most fascinating thing that at any point, five minutes later or 50 years later, we can just travel back to that point in time and just meet that need. And there's no wound that has happened then, like the wound doesn't linger or there isn't a lot of scar tissue, it's just kind of stopped, paused, and waiting. When am I gonna get this need met? And I'm gonna call out for it, and I'm gonna cry and shout and be jealous or anxious or pull away, like all these things, just to get the attention on where the this unmet need is.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

It's extraordinary to think about how there's a like a pure innocence is something untouched in our beingness that is just there and inherent and never be calling out just yeah, just like a baby does if it's hurting, if it has a stomach ache, if it's hungry, it's like ah. And but we tend to uh interpret that screaming as something else. We're like, it's this, it's that, there's something wrong with me. I I'm broken, I'm wounded, like there's something wrong with them, or they're so stupid or mean for doing this. Like, no, it's just calling us back home to it. Come back to this point in time, something is unmet. So I think that's also an important kind of reframe or perspective that I feel helps us rather than like, oh my god, there's so much work to do, and this is gonna take so much time to heal, and there's so much scar tissue.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

Yeah, because the thing is, and I I've been reminding myself this daily, once you get the guy or the girl, like that doesn't go away, right? So it's like it's just a difference to problems. You still have to go in and meet your parts, whether there's somebody there or not. So it kind of actually doesn't really matter if you're with somebody or not.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

Yeah. You know, I I started dating who someone who used to be my spiritual teacher, you know, and you would think that that would be the guy, right? He knew everything about everything, you know, possibly. But no, like these whatever we had in our unconscious, both of us would come up, right? And I think this is it will also in uh I mean there are better or worse choices in how we choose to step into relationship with for sure. And I really think that we should step into relationship to someone that we find with someone that we find extraordinary because those are the ones that we will stay for, stay with when the shit hits the fan. And it will, because we are there to look into each other's mirrors, we will reflect the pain and the wound, and we will hurt each other. We just will. But with that extraordinary person, like I can think of anyone else that I want to be with. It's this one. So choose them so then that you can do the work together. So exactly training ourselves to do the work, like you will never regret that because you're gonna need that for that really extraordinary relationship as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

That makes me feel excited.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

I love that. That feels like a good note to to wrap this conversation up.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Yeah. Yes. And um, thank you. Because everything that you've been coaching and mentoring me on is helps me to be available for that extraordinary relationship. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

Thank you. It's it's an honor and a pleasure to do it with someone who's so willing to like, okay, let's go in and do this, let's do the warrior work and see what's the next chapter is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

Yeah. Dating uh in modern life is the hero's journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:24

It is, it really is.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:29

Thank you so much, Jessica, for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

Thank you, Ava.

Being Seen And Forming A Sense Of Self

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

Yeah. So as we're wrapping up this episode, I wanted to circle back to something that was mentioned in this episode and that I also received. A question around. So the question was like in episode 193, the last one where I had a conversation with Pontus, who was experiencing an avoidant attachment pattern. Yeah, the person I mentioned this, the person who's most right for us will also show us the worst parts of ourselves. Can you explain more about why that is so? So I don't think that's exactly how I say it, said it. Like the most person who's most right for us will also show us the worst parts of us. But what I'm pointing to and meaning that we also mentioned in this conversation with Jessica is that we are all mirrors to each other. And I think there's a reason that we fall in love and that we are attracted to someone. And it's not just about, oh, the traits that we can see on the surface, but it is because they kind of hold the potential to our full selves. So we actually fall in love also partly with that better version of ourselves that they could be the key to. And it isn't from that child parent perspective of like, oh, they're gonna save us and finally make me feel safe and seen, because that is a child. But I think our soul really longs for growth, it really longs to become everything that we can be without pressure. Okay, it's not about reaching a certain point before we die, but it's about taking the journey. For me, it really is about consciousness itself being in each one of us and wanting to grow in that experience to expand, to evolve. So we fall in love with someone who can also show us the way to the greatest version of ourselves. For some of us, that might be feel like a challenge and something that we need to face in ourselves. Okay. For some of us, we might meet with pain and hurt that we've carried a lot. So whoever we choose to step into connection with, we'll also get to do deep work with. Okay, so there needs to be this willingness to see this if we want to have a conscious relationship. If we're looking for a fairy tale one where it's like, oh, you're gonna complete me, and that looks a certain way, that feels just safe and like roses all the time, then we're in for a surprise. But completing each other might just be reflecting back to what, like what I can't see. But we tend to look at the other and like, oh my god, they are the ones, they are more crazy than me, they're more on healed than me. If they could just do the work, but I'll tell you that the amount of crazy that you see in them, or the amount of protection mechanisms, you have the same level. There's a reason that you're there together. Yours might be something else, not the same as theirs, but we all have, you know, the same amount of crazy. So this is what I mean. And when you're ready then to like, oh, I'm gonna approach relationship this way, and it doesn't mean that it should only be hard work all the time. No, we want to give ourselves what feels good, like the balance for the rest of life, too, right? Yes, there will be hard days, yes, there will be hardships, yes, there will be growth, and we also want the goodness, we do want the dessert, we do want the vacation, we do want the pleasure. Like, yes. So when you start taking on relationships with this new sense of awareness and presence, and also the willingness to look into the mirror of someone else and what they're reflecting back, and not just be so stubborn that we're the ones who write and they're the ones who should grow up, then we can really start to also enjoy relationships better. I'll be back next week where we start exploring what a more secure attachment feels like when we start to come out on the other side. What are signs to look for? How do we know that we're there? And what does it feel like in the body, in the nervous system? How do we respond differently? That's what we'll explore in the next episode. I hope you'll be there. Thank you so much for listening.