Winningest Section IV Football Coach with Jim Hoover

This episode is the result of a "Next Fan Up" submission from Don Dunbar and is dedicated to the Winningest Section IV Football Coach, Jim Hoover. This is a follow-up episode to the Top 10 Winningest Section IV Football Coaches.

This podcast will run weekly during the season and continue as long as a Section IV Football team is playing.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to Cover 45. If you're a second for a football fan, 5050, your five years, welcome to this. I'll be your host. The Cover Four podcast is brought to you by TDS Performance Improvement. Sixty percent of first-time leaders fail. TDS Performance Improvement prevents these failures by verifying often overlooked prerequisites, followed by assessment, education, and personalized coaching. If you desire to be a successful leader, visit TDSPI.com. That's TDSPI.com. Click the Let's Have a Conversation button and schedule your free informative conversation. Our guest today retired from coaching as the number one winning Section Four football coach and is tied for fourth all time in New York State. And you know what? He's still coaching. He's in his fifth season since retiring, coaching with his son at Walton. So I guess the old adage of once a coach, always a coach is true for him. Welcome, Coach Hoover. How you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Very good. Doing excellent.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Great, glad to have you. And we appreciate you taking the time to share the knowledge and uh insight with us. No problem. Coach Jim Coach, Coach Jim Hoover uh was the head coach of the Walton Warriors for 41 season, where his team amassed 318 wins. Just stop and think about that for a minute. 318 of anything is a lot. Okay, and during his uh tenure there in 1994, they this team won the Class C New York State Championship. 2007, they won the Class D New York State Championship. They had 14-time Section Four champs, they were 19th-time division champions, five undefeated seasons, coach of the year 14 times. He's a member of the Section Four Hall of Fame and the Greater Binghamton Sports Hall of Fame. And uh the Warriors field is named after him. So I that's just a little bit. I don't want to, we could go on almost all night with your accolades, Jim, and you've done a great job with what it is you do. And we have a few questions we'd like to ask you.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Your dad is also a section four coaching legend, and I went through and I've got a list of the top 10. You're number one on that section four list, and he's number 10, and there's quite a few coaches, quality coaches in between. Would you share with us a little bit what it was like being raised by dad/slash coach Hoover?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Well, I I you know, ever since I can remember, uh football has been a very important part of our life. Um, you know, I don't I when he started coaching in Newark Valley, I was like three and four, maybe five years old. And I I uh can't remember too much about the Newark Valley experience. But when he came to Vestal, as soon as I got old enough, I became a water boy slash manager uh in all the way up until I played. Uh but uh it was it was um you know he was a he's a great, great, I had a great mom and dad. Uh I had you know two brothers who played football. We were just so involved with football. Uh, you know, definitely what you could call a football family. Uh at one time my mom was uh my my youngest, my youngest brother was playing uh like a booster club type football in any cot. I was on a freshman team, my older brother was on a JV team, and my dad coached to varsity. She was going to you know four games of four games a week. Uh but no, it was it was, you know, I didn't notice anything difference growing up when I wasn't playing for him. Once I got to play for him, uh, and we had a bad practice, you knew about it at the supper table. You know, he was he wouldn't say anything, he would just sit there very quiet, but you knew that uh uh he he was concerned about the practice. Um and then uh but we, you know, we were we managed, you know, the three of us, the three boys, and my mom. It was tough on my mom sometimes too, but he never said anything verbally, you know, it was always uh he was a very positive, positive person. Very seldom did I ever hear him, my dad, say anything negative about anybody. He might have thought it, but you know, he didn't, he didn't say it.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

But playing for him, it was was uh great. He, you know, we had I didn't start until my senior year. Uh my brother was a year ahead of me, and they just had a fantastic football team. And uh uh we used to call it um the suicide squad, they call it a scout squad now, but back then they call it a suicide squad. And as a JV player, um uh my my group of kids that I graduated with, my class, we were we were the suicide squad. We went against the varsity every every night. And then when we became juniors, because uh we only had one junior start force, uh we were the that scout squad, slice suicide squad for a second year. And I think that's that's one of the one of the reasons that made up we went undefeated at my senior year, 8-0. And I think that's one of the reasons we didn't have the talent that uh my brother's team had, but uh uh we we we got the heckbeat out of us night after night at practice, and that that made us pretty tough.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Sure, and you you learn a lot from that pain. I've always said pain is a great teacher, whether it's physical pain, mental pain, uh or financial pain, it tends to be a great teacher, and you tend not to repeat those uh mistakes or or do those things that got you in those situations. So I can I can understand where you're coming from. I was on some of those squads myself. Um, and it's it's not fun. Jim, what is it that makes a coach successful? And I know it's not, and people will watch games and they'll see the head coach and they think, oh, head coach does everything, makes all decisions and everything, but there's a lot more to that than just coaching football.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Well, you know, I I think football is is they as far as a team sport, I think football's you know, right up there with probably one of the you know the top as far as have you have to play as a team, you know, you can't play. So it's it's a team, and it's not just the players, it's the coaches. Uh it's it's your family, your family support. Uh it's you know, it's a lot of things that are involved. Uh the administration support. Uh I was kind of lucky. I was an administrator a lot of the years. I was a coach. So uh uh, but uh you need the community support, you know, and and it's it's it's all comes together. To be successful, you need, you know, you need all of it. Uh it's it's just not one or the other. And you have to have a coaching staff that uh believes in the program you're using. You know, kids can tell if a coach is coaching and and they don't believe on what they're coaching. You have to have that staff that uh is is uh believes in what you're doing. And and I was lucky enough to have a lot of my ex-players uh play for or coach with me. Uh and it and it was uh, you know, there's a lot of things that go with success. You have to, it's it's I don't think people realize the preparation of a even a high school football getting ready to play a game this week. You have a scotter report, you break down tapes, hours and hours in front of the tapes, diagramming plays. It's a little easier now what what they have, you know, you they use what they call huddle, which makes it a little easier, but you it's still, you know, in order to learn a team what they're doing offensively and defense, you have to see them, and you gotta reverse the film. I remember my dad with the old 16 millimeter, you know, pushing a button and having to go back and forth and back and forth. And he was in that dining room, you know, most of Sunday breaking down tapes, and then he had a coach's meeting Sunday night. And you know, we still do. We have a scouting report to give the kids. We meet probably for three hours on Sunday as a coaching staff, sometimes more. Uh, we go scouting when we're not playing, we're out even though we exchange tapes now. Sometimes the tapes you exchange aren't the best, and we like to kind of we know what we want to see, so we'd rather be there also and get our tape so we can zoom in when we want to zoom in. But it's uh it's work and and going back to the family, you know, if you don't have a supportive uh wife or family, it it's tough because you spend so many hours at school or at practice and you come home at 6, 6:30 sometimes, quarter of seven. Uh, you need that supportive, that supportive, uh uh that support that you get from from home. And uh my I know my dad was lucky enough to get it. Uh and and I was I I I had the greatest support in the world.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yeah, I know that when I was I told you about the list that I was uh putting together for another podcast episode of the top 10 section four uh winning as coaches, and there were some common things that I saw there, the things you just touched on, the great support structure from your assistant coaches to your student athletes, community, and family. But also there's longevity involved. Uh, most of the coaches on that list are probably at the minimal, is like 26 years on up to uh yourself at 41. So there's that longevity, and with that comes that unwavering desire to coach, uh, which is really leading and also teaching. You just your classroom is uh you know a little bit different. Your classroom happens to be a football field as opposed to a sit-down classroom. So there really is not a lot of difference there, but you need all those things to be successful because you'll find out in a hurry if if you try to do it all yourself, make all the decisions yourself, it's just going to overwhelm you and it's it's not gonna be a cohesive uh approach to the program. Plus, the word program means something. They're obviously at at Walton and and when your dad was at Vestal, and a lot of schools do that now, have what I call a traditional program, right? From the youth, you know, uh non-high school, you know, like from the youth up through middle school, modified, they call it, into JV and into varsity. So there's a lot of things that go into that, and I know that uh you're appreciative of that. And if you've ever tried to coach, uh you become appreciative of that in a real hurry, and especially if you don't have it.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

No, you're right. You know, but the the thing is, my my dad used to have a little bit of different philosophy. I know his modified teams did run the vessel offense, but his if if a coach down there wanted to run something different, he he he wouldn't get upset at all. He said that the main concern, or not the concern, but the things that he wanted to get through to the the kids, he wanted them to enjoy playing a game of football. You know, he didn't want a coach to come out and run them to death the first day, and and uh, you know, I want to the old philosophy, I want to see who really wants to be here. You know, you you don't do that. In fact, I was just reading an article in one of the it was a Southern Tier magazine. It was only in uh I think it started in '74, and he was on the first cover, and they interviewed him, and he he he emphasized that. He says, You start off conditioning slow, and you just gradually add on day after day, and after three weeks, the kids don't even know they're in shape because you just and uh and and and I've been in I've been involved with some coaches who uh come on, let's see who wants to really be here. Let's go and and mostly small schools. Boy, we can't do that. We need everybody out on that field.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

And the world is now some of you, even your larger schools are struggling with numbers. Uh, you know, it's not like it used to be where you have 50 kids on a team or 45 kids on a team. Uh you know, right now we struggle and we have we have uh three ninth graders up uh on Adam's team. Uh and uh, you know, when everybody's there and not being quarantined, uh, you know, we have like 29 kids. Uh and that's that's good numbers for a school our size right now.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Sure. There's one uh thing that you had mentioned there. It was about you easing in the conditioning, and it's all and they don't really realize it's almost like subliminal conditioning where you know you you ease into it and at the end of it, like wow, we're in shape. Yeah, yes, but I know what you mean. It's uh anything where you you want student athletes to come out and participate. The last thing you want to do is deter them and make them want to quit. You know, that's that's just counterintuitive to what you're you're trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

And you got to be careful with, you know, each each kid is different. Some kids have never some of your athletes have never really done anything before when they come up through. And you know, you don't want to discourage them. You want to uh and and you know, we've we've let's say a a bigger kid comes out and he could be a good football player, but he just got in shape. You you have to baby him somewhat, you know. Uh my dad used to say that all the time. He said, We you know, we don't want to lose this kid, he's gonna help us on the line.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

But uh, but there's still, you know, I I think there's fewer and fewer, but there's still some coaches out there with the philosophy of uh, you know, let's go out and just hit, hit, hit and uh uh see who really wants to be here. And if if you can't handle it, then you know pack it in. But uh we I know at Walton we can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

No, you know, exactly right. That's that's what we said, that's kind of counterintuitive. Coach, when did you realize you wanted to pursue a career in the coaching profession? When did it really hit you and say, Man, I want to do this?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Well, you know, I I right out of high school, I had to go to uh Manlius Prep School, which was a military school back then because I didn't have very good grades. Uh and uh after that year, I wanted to be a phys ed major. So I knew I wanted to be in athletic. So that was maybe when I was 18, 19, but I I uh you know it was kind of talk and I wasn't willing to put the the effort in. I I uh I I went the long way around. I I went to Cortland and played football and ate pizza, and uh in January I was back home. I went to Broome Community College the following fall, and um I was on probation and I couldn't fail any courses, and I failed a course and I fail out of Broom. So I then enlisted in the Marines for four years, and they kind of taught me what it was how you know how to discipline myself. And once I got out of the Marine Corps, I get went back and went to Ithaca College and said, you know, all you got to do is do a little study and go to classes, and then you pass. But uh, you know, it it took me until I was like 25 years old before I before I really you know got into it. And I was 27 when I graduated from Ethics College, so I was you know fairly old for a young coach, but uh and then I definitely wanted I knew I wanted to coach, I knew I wanted to be in Fizz Ed. And my dad went into administration uh and he uh you know that's what I ended up going into, but I I was allowed a lot of schools, won't allow it. But we had a great superintendent in George Mack, and he he allowed me to coach and and be uh be a principal, and there was no problem.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

You you said something there pretty cool, coach. I don't know if you realized it or not, but you said you were kind of old for a young coach. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's that's good. I had to I had to write that one down. I'm gonna use that one.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

That's good stuff. My first two years, well, I did my student teaching at Johnson City on a Chuck Gotthry, you know, who was Coach College pros. Uh yeah, he was he was from the old, the old teaching ways in some ways, but he was a great guy. And I learned a lot of football from him. Uh I I he he assigned me the uh freshman. Uh when I was a student teacher, he gave me the freshman B team. Back then they had enough for a freshman B team. And we went on, we ended up going four and oh, and he came down to see the last game, and he didn't realize that I had put uh kind of the Vestal offense in there. I wasn't using the offense. So he looked at me, what play was that? And so I told him, you know, it was the Vestal Short Punt. But he kind of laughed about it. But then the next two years, when I got my I started my teaching career at Johnson City, I was an assistant coach under him and learned a lot from him.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

I had a lot of a lot of good teachers. Uh and and I really learned football. I know I'm going on and on, but I really learned football when uh when my dad came up to help us uh in Walton. After he retired, he came up for about 10, 12 years. And uh I really learned what it was all about when he was there, as far as even uh communicating with the kids, uh, how he handled the kids, uh, his worth that work ethics. It just, you know, you saw him do it, but until you were working next to him, and uh he was always good. You know, I would I would call him up with the scouting report on Sunday and he said, Well, let me look at it, Jim, and I'll get back to you. And he'd call me back and he'd always start off. Now, this is what I'm thinking, but you don't have to do it, do what you think is right. But I'm sitting there thinking, boy, that's definitely the way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, you find a lot of your um mature coaches, if they don't start out that way, they tend to end up being humble. And because I think they realize pretty quickly, unless you have somebody sitting right there teaching you, you it's hard to learn everything. And you know, I never say I don't know everything, I'm always learning, but through coaching, it's just that kind of profession that you have to kind of do it and put in your time and listen to some of the more mature coaches. And and a lot of more mature coaches, if they don't start out that way, they tend to be more uh humble and uh and thankful for what they've got and and then pass it on. I'd like to see, you know, this play it forward, if you will, so that the the sport can continue with with good coaches and good leaders.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

You know, one time a reporter asked that uh asked me if I don't know if I felt guilty or whatever that I'm using, uh I'm using the Vestal offense, you know, and uh don't you want to do your own thing? And I and I told him, I said, you know, I said, and uh I said, my dad's helping me. If I could get at the time Fran Angeline was retiring, I said, if I could get Fran Angeline here, Joe Moresco here, uh Chuck Godfrey here, I said, I'd get them all here as my assistants. I says, as long as it's helping the kids, uh, you know, it's it's good for me.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Sure. It's a different perspective for the defense because you know, if the the team coming in to play you, because I'm a deep I'm a defensive coordinator by trade, um, you always got to figure out what it is that a particular offense is doing. And if they throw multiple stuff at you and they're what I call ambidextrious, meaning they pass to both sides, they run to both sides. That's really tough the defense when you you don't really know what they're gonna do. Some teams have you know uh big time tendencies, others don't. And uh, so it's it's great to get those other perspectives, and you know, you gotta you had to listen to them because those guys been there, done that, and did it well. It's not like they lost a ton of games. They, you know, the names that you just talked about, there are a lot of them, those names are the top 10 lists in section four. So you had to be doing something right.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Another question for you what advice would you share with somebody that wants to get into coaching or thinks they want to get into coaching, a future coach? What would you say to them if they say, Hey, coach Hoover, what do you think? Should I get into coaching?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah, you know, it's it's like I mentioned before, as as a as a coach, you need you need those great, and I I don't want to call them assistant coaches because they're really such of a big part of the program. You know, you want to see in a new coach, you want to you have to be enthusiastic, first of all. Uh you know, those days, and now at the age of 75, you know, sometimes, oh, I gotta get up, I gotta go down, I gotta go to practice. It's 80 degrees out there. Once I get on the field, I'm I'm I'm like a 60 year old. Let's go that way. Yeah, and you know, so the enthusiasm has to be there. You have to be able to love the kids, you got to be able to be very flexible with the kids. You know, things have changed a little bit in the last. 15 20 years for years and years they would say, Coach, what's the difference between now and when you first started? And and I was able to say there's nothing different, but now there they are some things different. And you and you got to be able to be flexible. Um, you got to be able to be patient. You you you have to uh uh have a good sense of humor about you. It's just um, you know, you have to have that family support. If you don't have that family support, you know, you're not gonna be able to put in the long hours. And and as far as the flexibility, you know, you have to be able to when you're looking for someone to be an assistant coach, you're looking for someone who loves the kids and are respect the kids. You know, it's corny, but you know, you have to show respect to get respect. You know, I'm a coach, you should respect me. That's not the way it works. And it never did work that way. The kids always knew that. And uh, you know, you got to treat them like adults, you gotta you treat them, you know, with respect. And and if you do that, you'll get it back. And I I guess the big thing I'm looking at when I was a when I was an administrator, a principal, and I was hiring staff, which I thought was the most important job I had, was hiring the right people to work with the kids. You're looking for a people person. You're looking to someone who can communicate, who can talk, who's not gonna go upset if someone yells and screams at you. You know, you're looking at that that person who just loves the kids. And uh that's you you can teach them football. You know, you I I've had I've had some known some coaches that that know more so much more football than I do. It's in and at a time when I was younger, I used to go to four, sometimes five clinics a year and and listen hour after hour of football and write notes. I still have them. I still have all the boxes of the notes I took. And and once in a while I'll go back and I'll find something, you know, that that could help us. But uh it's uh you know, you can have all the football in the world, but if you can't communicate it and you can't get the kids to believe in it, it's it's useless.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah. I uh when I used to go to coaching clinics, I would go with the expectation, coach, that I'm gonna pick up one thing that I can incorporate into either uh the coaching style that I you know I use or into the scheme that you know we were using at that particular uh at that time. And a lot more times than not, I would get maybe two or three things. But if I only came away with one, and usually it was a really uh it was really a good thing. And some of these coaches, when they talked, they didn't realize how much knowledge they were sharing. It was because it's so easy to them, they live and breathe this. I'll tell you one, and and people think that this is simple, but there was one thing that I learned that this was up at uh I think it was the turning stone, it was the concept of when you send a backer, or you're blitzing uh any one or all your backers, depending on your formation. And one thing I didn't think of even coming up was hey, if that gap, say you're blitzing somebody in the eight, uh, you know, the strong A or something, if that gap is closed, don't bang your head on a closed door, back up and then readjust and see where the ball is and go go play it because I didn't even know that. And I'm not afraid to admit that because I don't know everything, I still don't, but it was just something a little like that. I went back and instituted that, and that made a big difference in how I coached and how we approached our defense. And there's a couple of other things that I've learned, or actually, more than a couple of things, a lot of things over the course of the years that if I could take that now and get back into coaching, I'd be so much better, and the teams would be so much better because I could share that with them. But you and the other thing was I a lot of the student athletes wanted instant gratification, they wanted to come in, suit up, and go play the game. And there was so much more to that. When I was at the I coached at this at the semi-pro level, which was more of a passing game, but then when I was coaching at the JVs at Vessel, I taught the student athletes how to stem, meaning show one formation on defense. Then once the quarterback reads you and goes to look at something else, we switched. We called that stemming. And the first week the kids were there, the second year, the coach, we want to learn how to stem, we're gonna learn how to stem. Let's get the basics down first, you know, and they take them right from the stance to alignment to responsibility. Okay, now we can interject stemming into this because you got to get the basics down first, you know, and there's so much media that they have access to now that they they don't see a lot of the things that go on behind the scenes. Some of these student athletes at all levels, and including the pros, they put in so much time and effort to get good at what they do, and it doesn't have to just be sports, it can be in the arts, it can be in music, and a lot of different things. You got to do those things behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

You know, going back a little bit with uh like this past Saturday, we got we got uh concerned or upset because we had a couple receivers wide open, you know, and and uh another thing as far as uh coaching philosophy, you know, these are 14, 15, 16-year-old kids, 17-year-old kids. I turned TV on on Saturday and watched uh, I think it was Penn State, and guess what? There was a receiver wide open. Someone blew an assignment, and then I'm watching the pros yesterday, and I think three times receivers were wide open. These guys guys are making millions of dollars, and they blew an assignment, and receivers were wide open. So, how can you expect a 14 or 15 or 60-year-old kid, you know, not to blow an assignment on occasion?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Yeah, and sometimes you need to do that. That's in that category where I talk about pain. It's an embarrassing thing, it's a very big embarrassment because nine times out of 10, that student athlete is relatively close to the play, or even a novice fan can look and say, Oh, that guy probably should have had him. You know, so it's an embarrassment, and that's a kind of pain too, emotional uh pain. So that tends not to repeat itself. Uh, but yeah, that's that's a lesson learned, and you move on from it.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Well, coach, you have given us a great deal of knowledge. I want to uh thank you for that for myself and our listeners, but also what you've done for the game of football in section four and beyond, and what you continue to do now since joining uh forces with your son there in 2017. You still have a Hoover-led team there in Walton, but you actually have two Hoovers on on board now. So that should make you guys uh doubly as good.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Hey, one one point, and I you know, it's I just said I thought about this last year. This year is the seventy 70th year there's been a Hoover as head coach in section four. Whoa, let me write the 70th year, and also it's the because my dad was an assistant coach for Vessel his first year. Uh so the last 73 years, 72 of them, there was a Hoover as a head coach. I'm kind of proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

That is that's cool stuff. So the 70th year that there's a Hoover that's been heading up a section four team. Yeah, nice. That that's good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

That's a long time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

It is, yeah. If you you uh like you look at your your your tenure, you know, you have 41 seasons, 318 wins, and you have a field named after you. You had five undefeated seasons, uh, and you actually had uh New York State champs in 1994 and 2007. So there's a lot of work that goes into that. I was gonna this one you one question I wanted to ask you. What is it like to go there and coach and walk out on a field with your name on it?

SPEAKER_01 30:23

You know, I really it's kind of nice. You look up and look at it once in a while. I mean, the same when when I read uh an article in the paper about you know someone playing at Vestal, even a whether it's a soccer game, field hockey, lacrosse game, and they'll say, you know, uh at Dick Coover Stadium, and it it you know it's it's nice, yeah, it is, and not many coaches get to see that while they're living.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

A lot of it's done in and and is memorializing them with the the naming of a field, or uh at like at UE, you have Ty Cobb with the field, and you have Fran Angeline with the uh the nice field house there. So, you know, it's it's really neat to be able to do that. And uh I imagine it does give you uh some chills now and then, or even just to be reassured you're doing the right thing, you look up and say, Yeah, that name's up there for a reason. Let's let's keep driving forward.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah, hope I just don't do something wrong that they take it down, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

I don't know if they can do that. Can they do that? You gotta really screw up, coach, to you know, really screw up to have them do that. Yeah, well, they they always say, you know, uh you can do a get a whole lot of attaboys, but one oh shoot, wipes them all out, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Right, you're right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

But no, that with joking aside, you've done great stuff, you're continuing to do great things, and I'm sure our listeners are really going to enjoy this podcast. So thanks again, uh Jim. Really appreciate that and continue to keep doing the things that you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah. Hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe. And remember, tell your friends. Coach Smith says, visit cover4.com and be the next fan up. In football and life, it's not where we line up, it's where we wind up. Thank you for listening to the Cover 4 podcast.