Yoga With Jake Podcast
Yoga With Jake Podcast
Dr. Dominick Shattuck: Male Reproductive Health. How Men Can Develop Social Connections. Boys' & Men's Online Behavior.
Dr. Dominick Shattuck is a public health researcher whose work focuses on
reproductive health, technology integration, vaccine uptake, HIV, and engaging men in care. His research examines how men’s health-seeking behaviors, masculinity, and gender norms shape outcomes. He has led pioneering studies, including evaluating a mobile contraceptive app (the Dot Study), conducting the first randomized trial of male engagement in reproductive health, developing the first reproductive health mobile games (Nari Paila), and leading Rwanda’s national vasectomy scale-up.
At Johns Hopkins University, he is a faculty member in the Bloomberg School of Public Health and the OB-GYN Department in the School of Medicine. He’s also the CEO of Relational Ground, LLC, on the Advisory Boards of Next Life Science, the Men’s Health Network, a member of Global Action on Men’s Health, and he’s the Men’s Health Fellow at the American Institute for Boys and Men.
On this episode, how our lack of focus, conversation, and education on male reproductive health has a cascade effect on our overall health outcomes for everyone. Why do men fail to seek out help or go to a doctor until there's a health crisis? Why are men so reluctant to speak with their doctors? And why are doctors not asking men about their reproductive health? Is there male contraception on the horizon? There's a crisis of loneliness and isolation, especially amongst men. How can guys develop social connections and be in a supportive community, which we know improves their health and overall well-being without making it painfully awkward or forced? Joining me to unpack these topics is Dr. Dominic Shaddock, a public health researcher whose work focuses on reproductive health, technology integration, vaccine uptake, HIV, and engaging men in care. His research examines how men's health-seeking behaviors, masculinity, and gender norms shape outcomes. He has led pioneering studies, including evaluating a mobile contraceptive app, the DOT study, conducting the first randomized trial of male engagement in reproductive health, developing the first reproductive health mobile games, and leading Rwanda's national vasectomy scale-up. At Johns Hopkins University, he is a faculty member in the Bloomberg School of Public Health and the OBGMYN department in the School of Medicine. He's also the CEO of Relational Ground on the advisory boards of Next Life Science, the Men's Health Network, a member of Global Action on Men's Health, and he's in the Men's Health Fellow at the American Institute for Boys and Men. I'm Jake Panasevich, and this is the Yoga with Jake podcast.
SPEAKER_01:I've seen some of your other guests in the earlier podcasts, and I appreciate being included in that group of people. So yeah, I'm a I'm a researcher. I've been doing research for the last 20 years. I started out as a school teacher before that. So I had this kind of history of being with students and working in classrooms uh in the US and overseas in the Peace Corps in Ethiopia, and then even a year in Saudi Arabia. Um but after that, I decided to go to graduate school in North Carolina and get a degree in community psychology. And the whole goal was to work in like the international space and international development space uh after that Peace Corps experience, you know. Um, and what happened was it kind of my my career kind of evolved. I I started working at a company called FHI 360 and uh in Durham, North Carolina, and that got me to into the space of reproductive health. And working in reproductive health, I got this opportunity to work on programming that was related to men's health, uh men's reproductive health, and where they kind of fit into this space. Uh, and when that started to happen, I really ran with it and I got kind of more involved in that space. It was really an empty space. There wasn't many people. This is the early 2000s, and um, you know, it was a time when most of the programming was to engage men for women's health outcomes so they would get access to healthcare and use contraceptive methods and have more autonomy and and kind of control in their contraceptive lives. Um, but there was an important role, and kind of we've learned a lot from those programs, and I can talk about more about that later on. Um, but that that work got me from there. I went to Georgetown University for a few years and was at the Institute for Reproductive Health. And then I moved over to the Center for Communication Programs at Johns Hopkins. Um, and more recently, since we've had the big doging of US government and things like this, I've moved from the Bloomberg School of Public Health, where I still hold a faculty appointment, to the School of Medicine where I also hold a faculty appointment. And I've recreated a little bit where I have now a role at uh the Men's Health Fellow at the American Institute for Boys and Men. And I'm involved in a number of different consulting roles and things like that as well. So I'm got a bunch of stuff going on and uh it's great. Uh, it's sometimes I feel like I have 10 bosses instead of like one or two, but yeah, it's it's it's good though. It's it's been a good the year we're getting to the end of this year, and I'm having both that moment of like, oh, we're already here at the end of the year, but I'm also like, holy crap, this year was so tumultuous career-wise, that it's like, I can't believe we're here at the same time. So yeah, it's been a wild, a wild 12 months, I gotta say.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's really interesting. Your um breadth of work is really impressive. I've noticed you on, you know, some of the things you've written and posted involving men's health specifically, because that's something that's really um something I'm passionate about. And, you know, I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about your findings involving your research with men and contraception, because you don't hear about this much. You often hear about women in this topic, and I've had guests talk about this. Um, and I've always been curious about the men's side, you know, why is there ever going to be like a the pill for men or something like that, you know? And I was curious what you were looking at and what you're what you found involving men in contraception.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so so it's interesting. It's a really huge space, right? And it's a huge space with that's almost like a vacuum, right? So there's some really cutting edge stuff that's happening, but there's really a need to cut there's this cutting-edge stuff that's awesome and really interesting and has medical technology involved and has like, you know, there's there's just a really awesome space that's happening and evolving really quickly. But there's really a need to actually go back to like primary care provision and uh contraceptive, uh, excuse me, comprehensive sexual education for men and boys, and like the need to kind of really bring men up to speed in some ways, right? Around contraceptive and reproductive health. Um, you know, you're part of the process as a guy. You know, you you can't really take the male to provide the sperm and to and to uh you know be part of the process and be a good partner as well as a good father and uh husband and and and parent um over time. And you know, oftentimes men come into this space underprepared. I won't say unprepared, but often underprepared, right? And I don't know that anyone's really fully prepared for parenthood, but um it's it's one of those things where sometimes I'll talk about it like, I, you know, have you ever really had in-depth conversations with your friends or or other people in your lives around parenting and and having killed kids and children and stuff like this? And I think about sometimes when I give talks around this topic, I'll start it off with a quick question. And I'll if it's if it's a mixed room of men and women, I'll ask the men, I'll ask everyone in the room, you know, raise your hand if you've ever been uh engaged by a care provider, like a physician or a nurse or anyone at a clinic, and they've talked to you specifically about contraception, not about HIV, not about STI prevention or even prostate issues, really about contraception, right? Because in our lives, you know, well what the results of though is oftentimes you'll have every woman in the room raises her hand, right? Yeah, and none of the guys, maybe one old guy like me, you know, say, Oh, I got a vasectomy or something, but most of the time it's really it's just the women that raise their hand. And this is interesting because you know, if if you and I go into the doctors and we've say we had a fall, we hurt our ankle or our knee or something like that, we'll go in and they'll just they'll still focus in on that one issue, or say we don't feel well or something like this, or we have some sort of an internal pain, they'll focus in on that pain and they'll ask us some questions about how it feels, when it started, all this kind of stuff. Well, women will get those questions, but they'll also get questions around their reproductive health. So it's very common for women to go into the doctor's office for one issue, but always they'll be asked questions about when was your last period? Are you sexually active? If you're sexually active, are you using contraception? Are you trying to get pregnant? Those kinds of things. And what's important about that is that not only do they have that questioning about reproductive health, so they're having the conversation, but think about the question for a second, because it's like that's a really intimate conversation, right? Like, are you trying to get pregnant? Are you using contraceptive? What is it? How when was your last period? These are really private. I mean, not that you shouldn't be disclosing with your physician, but it's really an important thing to think about when it comes to, you know, kind of building a lexicon and building like the way you talk about reproductive health and how comfortable you are with that topic. Um, and I think it's one of those topics where for men, you can go your entire life until you decide to get a vasectomy or until someone gets pregnant or something else, and not really have meaningful and deep conversations about that. And if we kind of, you know, so I think with reproductive health, you have that kind of core foundational knowledge and experience that we kind of miss sometimes, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely. Yeah, I've never I've never experienced my primary care bringing up anything involving planning for fatherhood or having a child or contraception or really anything involving sexual health, honestly, unless I'm the one who asks, pops the question. And I think that's what it feels like. And like, how many guys are gonna lean into that discomfort? Like, who I feel like it's a cultural thing, too, where because we're not so acclimated from a young age to seeing a doctor, and it's normal to talk about these things for your overall health, that the conversation is kind of uh left and on the back burner almost like a like it's a difficult conversation that you just don't want to have, and so you won't have it, it seems, you know, or or worried about it being embarrassing or sounding um awkward.
SPEAKER_01:It's right, right. And I you know and also like a lot of times you just don't even it there's the conversation and there's that practice. Are you even thinking about it as a guy? Like, are you thinking about man, when I have kids, I want to be like this. Now, all guys are different, and as a they're all shapes and sizes of us, right? And some guys do think about this, and they they've been thinking about a long time. Family may be. I met one person who was telling me recently, you know, they grew up in a big family, and having a big family was like an expectation for them, you know, in terms of the parents' conversation. I can't, you know, some parents are like, oh, I can't wait till you have grandbabies and all this kind of stuff, you know. And others aren't. And others would never say that to their male male children, they'll only say it to their female children. So these expectations and this kind of conversation around it is different. So when I think about this too, it also kind of translates to what you talk about with your friends, right? So sure you might have talked about, you know, love interests or people you wanted to date or whatever, but were you ever talking about like either avoiding getting pregnant? Maybe sometimes, uh, or avoiding, you know, or or like if you were to have kids, like how many, when do you want to have them? Do you would you prefer boys or girls? What's the benefit of or difference, or how would you potentially parent them? Would you push them into sports, or would you you know, how would you do it? I mean, you kind of what what I think is sad, and I I'm very guilty of this, is that um when you come at it by default, you're figuring things out all the time. And fortunately, children are pliable, and if you are if you are forthcoming, they're forgiving many times, and you know, they'll they'll take you for your mistakes and they'll help you to kind of okay, let's try this again. Okay, like they'll give you that opportunity to try it again most of the time. And so I think it's it, but it's really sad that you kind of have to learn on the job in a way, you know, like there's no kind of there's really no prep. But um, uh-huh, yeah. But it's an interesting space to think about because as a guy, you're you're just not socialized, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think I think every young man can relate to it's not top of mind until there's something that could potentially be disastrous. And and then there's this my head is exploding with stress because boy, if I screwed up this, or if I got someone pregnant, if I got if I was uh irresponsible with you know my sexual activity, and then you know, your mind goes to, oh boy, I haven't thought of planning, or what are my uh what is the you know, um repercussions for of this, you know? Um how do you suggest that we approach this? Where what solutions could there be? Is it education? You know, I also, you know, bigger picture. Do you think guys like once you hit a certain age and you're done with your pediatrician, as as you move into adulthood as a guy, our tendency to go visit the doctor is few and far between. You know, I had to be almost uh ashamed to go see and get a um, you know, uh a primary care physician, because I was told to me that, you know, this is actually going to save you time and money in the long run. You know, you gotta instead of just piecemealing these uh go to urgent care when you're sick, right? You know, have a primary care, you could use your my chart online even and get your prescription. It's just faster and easier and ends up being a more affordable. But I think a lot of it's because women have their women well check every year. They have their um built-in OBGYN appointment where they have to go to the doctor. Oh, I guess they don't have to, but they most definitely are more um acclimated to seeing uh some sort of doctor about their health on the regular. Should there be like a men's an annual men's well visit, do you think?
SPEAKER_01:I do, and I I mean typically as you get older, you're going to your annual visit, but I I think it's also one of those things that you you're kind of socialized into avoiding the doctors, right? So you're you're never sick enough to go, you never got the you never have enough time. And women do this too. This isn't just a male thing, right? So, like I've listened to my wife say, Oh, I can't get to the doctors today, X, Y, Z, when she hasn't felt well. But and I know I know other women who do this, but for many men, on average, I think men are more likely to push it further and further and further along and to kind of avoid care, whether it's care around something very acute or um something that's been nagging them over time. You know, they can hold it off uh for a longer period of time. And this is what happens is that you you see this the statistics and you see that men oftentimes present at a later stage of like cancer progression, like maybe they're stage three or stage four, because they've been avoiding seeing the doctor for the lump in their side or what have you is the whatever the issue is, the mole on their back or what have you. Uh, or they um, you know, they they they're they they present later and then their outcomes are worse, right? So they have a higher rate of mortality, their their five-year mortality rates are lower than women's and and things like this. And so you kind of have this like downward spiral that happens as you start to avoid these health issues and avoid participating in these annual visits and being forthcoming with your doctor. Now, some of that's on the doctors, too, and the system and the structures. You know, you and I may have good health insurance and have like a$20 copay or a$10 copay, or maybe$30, I don't know, but that's even less than somebody who has to only use urgent care and has to pay out of pocket for that checkup and has to kind of, you know, finances and the structures that kind of limit people's access to those checkups and the preventative care treatments is really key. I mean, it really, it really opens doors for you to actually walk through or or time off. Like some jobs, if you're working construction, you few of your few employees, I mean few employers are gonna pay for you to take the morning off so you can go and have your teeth checked, or your so you can go and have your your whatever your soreness is checked out. Um so I think you we need to think about this in and men holistically, men and women holistically, in the sense of like access isn't just making the decision, it's a partial, partially it's that, partially it's the provider and how they interact with you. And then there's this whole other financial and kind of structural piece that really kind of can kick you in the ass sometimes when it comes to getting yourself into the doctor's office. And I mean, I I personally had to manage this kind of stuff too, and moments when I didn't have health insurance or moments when I didn't have you know easy access to healthcare. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is a daunting task sometimes to puzzle together, you know. I think they send you to gosh, when I had uh COVID, I remember just trying to like piece together how to see the you know, suggestion to see a pulmonologist, a cardiologist, and it just like who accept accepts my insurance and callbacks and like back then testing for COVID every single time for the pre-checkup, the checkup, the uh it was just like how many hoops? It just seems, and then I feel like almost burnt out from all those doctor visits back then when I did them, where I'm just like, oh my gosh, this took so much time. And I think as a guy too, like you said, and being self employed, it's just money too. I'm like, I couldn't be working right now. And if you don't work, if I don't work, I don't get paid. It's not like I'm got a salary or a um, yeah, a salary position. And so it's it's tricky. Do you think do you think the contraception or the male reproductive health conversation, this is a cast. Skate effect down into men's overall health, like we're talking about basically.
SPEAKER_01:I I do, I personally do. I don't know that there's necessarily evidence to support this in terms of the literature because I don't know that anyone's ever really done the study, but there's a logical kind of association between having an experience where you're seeing a physician on a regular basis around your reproductive health and the benefits that provides in your comfort and familiarity and ability to kind of go into the doctor's office. Also, like when you have those multiple visits, like if you're a woman, and it's unfortunate how often women have to go into the doctor's office if they're taking like the pill and they have to get a refill and they want to check the hormone levels and all that kind of stuff, uh, on different contraceptive methods, or unless it's you know, on some contraceptive methods, I should say. But when every time you have that contact, that's another touch point for other conversations, right? So if you're going in to have your pill recabulate, what do I want to say? If you haven't going in to have your pill uh recalibrated, then you can also have a conversation about something else that's bothering you at that moment. Um, and I just this morning I was doing some research around uh suicide prevention and things like that, and primary care physicians kind of like, are they really a good? I was looking at whether or not they really are a good source of like uh, because you know, suicide is a huge issue in our country and and around the world, but like particularly in our country and particularly among men. And like, are is a general practitioner a good source by which to um rely on kind of linking people to extended care related to suicide prevention and depression and things like this? Sometimes, sometimes they can be, but the the literature is kind of like they can be one of really we shouldn't look at it as just general practitioners are the only source of this kind of connection and opportunity. The literature was saying we should be looking at a whole huge cascade of opportunities to connect people with services, uh, because you do miss things in some of those primary care visits, particularly if you're going in for something like uh, you know, an acute injury or something like this. So yeah. But I think I do think like, sorry, but just to round it out, like I do think that the number of touch points and the number of access points does allow for other, you know, normalization of health service access and utilization.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's helpful. I do you have any suggestions for men who want to be more of an advocate for their for their sexual reproductive health and mental health? You know, I almost wish there was um I'm developing like a um table for students or yeah, yoga students or patients to take to their doctors to say, you know, I'd love to do yoga. And it like kind of gives them permission to show them a like slip and show them what they need based on their condition. So it kind of handles the conversation part for them, that communication. And I just feel like um certain doctors I've had, I felt way more comfortable opening up about asking health questions to, while others I'm like, it's like I'm talking to the wall or talking to my dad or something. Like they didn't seem interested or they didn't seem, they're just like kind of going through the motions. And I just feel like um a lot of it depends on the communication between the doctor and like if I feel comfortable, if they're a good listener, like it feels like a like more comfortable to open up to them. But do you have yeah, do you have suggestions as to how men could be more of an ambassador for themselves or or just as maybe like a script they could go and start these conversations?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you're gonna make me go and write one up after this conversation that we're having today. I I like the idea because I I I you know I think there's a precedent for that kind of intervention with having you know handing somebody five questions that you can modify in a in a physician's office. I when I go to the doctor's office, I always have uh I I have so much going on in my head, I'm always my memory. I I'm I'm not gonna admit that my memory is bad. I just like to admit that I have too many things going on in my head. So I go into the doctor's office and I have the notes app on my phone open and I'm typing the whole time. He's typing up, I'm typing up. It's it's going in my he said this, he said that, you know, it's that kind of thing. And I like that just to kind of keep me aware and just accountable, right? Because I'm gonna get home and I'm you know, being married and having people in my life who are gonna ask me that are, you know, hey, what happened at the doctor's today? What did he say? That's even valuable, right? So having somebody check up on you and the fact that they knew you went to the doctor's office, or you know, wanting to understand what if you went in for something um, you know, urgent or acute, wanting to understand how that doctor's appointment went and if there was any follow-up, that kind of thing is really key. But having like a checklist or some sort of a set of questions, oftentimes in my notes, I will have written down, I'm coming for this, this, and this, and I want to ask about this and this. And I I will do that mostly because I know myself, and I'll get wrapped up in the conversation or like I'm very I'm very forthcoming, as you will see in this conversation. I'm also like, I'm also I like to chat with people, and so I don't want to miss, I don't want to lose the opportunity. And I know I I'll rag on doctors sometimes, but like they have a time crunch too, right? So like they have a very difficult situation to provide a care, a service, you know, within the structures that they work, they have to provide a service with some efficiency, right? And so um it would be nice if there were bigger, like a bigger care circle in some of these medical spaces in the United States where you don't need to ask these questions just to the doctor. You could be asking them to a nurse practitioner, you could be asking them to even even somebody who's trained without that high level of education, uh, who could kind of link you to services. Um, and especially now that we have, you know, we have so much technology and we have so much kind of ability to kind of refer people out that I think I think you know there are systems, even the one of the doctor's offices that I go to, I have like high triglycerides, I have a kind of like a hereditary issue around like that kind of thing, right? So I take some medication, some statin for that, and that's a situation where every time I go in once a month, I go to this this cardiologist, and every time I fill out their form, and I go in and it's as if I never filled out the form. And so I'm like, the last couple times I I I said to her both times, like, hey, why do I fill out this form if you never bring it up? And she's like, What do you mean? I said, I fill out I get this message, you you send me five text messages to fill out my pre-visit information, and so I go through this process, I fill it out, but you never bring it up. And I said, Well, read what I wrote, and I said, You never bring up what I write in this form of form. But I think you know, like we have the technology, it's all about kind of like behavior change around using it. You can have for the for the patient, you can have you know help on asking them questions. This could all be done within the within a system of of technology too, because we all walk around with these phones in our hands and pockets, and that's across socioeconomic levels, right? And and it could be as simple as that, but I do think it's worth you know asking more about because I do I feel like reproductive health is one of those things that whether you want to have kids or you really don't want to have kids, it's got a relevance to your life, right? So I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind when it comes to sex and reproductive health and and you know just linking it to healthcare services.
SPEAKER_00:Sure, yeah. It's funny how it's all connected. Uh I was uh looking at some of your work, and I was wondering if you could tell me some of what you've been interested in looking at involving men and social connections and loneliness.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I I I think about this like probably too much. I don't know if it's too much.
SPEAKER_00:I'm the same here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I do, and I I wonder if it's sometimes I wonder if I'm pathology pathologizing myself or something. I don't know. But I I think about it a lot, and I I I enjoy being with friends and hanging out, and I really enjoy kind of like uh even though I work pretty much here in the basement all day long, um, I like being around other people and and and in social settings. So I so I think about it, and I also know the research, and you know, like that Harvard longevity study that kind of shows what you know it's not necessarily your income, although it helps. It's not necessarily your workouts, even though it helps. What was kind of the big link for keeping people alive and healthiest the longest? It was their social connections, right? So we know your social connection is something that's critical in terms of like your health and well-being, your mental health, your relationships, you know, you having friends in a in a marital context, if you're married, you having friends that you can you can vet your issues with and you can talk through challenges with and you can get emotional support from. That helps you to come back to your partner and be a better partner or be a better parent or what have you. So the value of these social connections is is seen across our life, right? Not just in our our emotional and social context, but it's seen also in our our health and the way in which we we articulate our health and we we actuate our health. Um, I know you you teach a lot of yoga classes, and you know, that's a dynamic where you're you know, I go to the gym all the time. I mean, having a couple people at the gym that I can say, hey, how you doing today? How's it going? Oh, hey Dominic, how are you? It just kind of puts you in a space where you are known and seen. And if you haven't been seen in a few days, oh I missed you the last couple days, or you've been coming in at a different time, and just just having that kind of connection with somebody, it levels up the the gym. Or I mean, unless you're super private, some people don't want to hear anything like that. Yeah, but yeah, I think it it kind of really has a big impact on how you how you are in spaces and and who you are in those spaces, too. And so I think it's really key to kind of we know the research is there supporting it in terms of your health outcomes and your emotional health outcomes. So why not kind of lean into it a little bit more? Is really where I'm coming from.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I totally agree. I, you know, we brought up my yoga classes. I've been teaching these men's yoga classes for it's going on 15 years now, it's hard to believe. But it's really incredible to see. I think if a big part of letting it flourish was not driving home the fact that what we're doing here is socially connecting, it was like seamless, it wasn't like painfully awkward. I think um it was one of these things where it was a group of friends, daycare dads, that had decided to take this series. It was really cool because the workshop series created a container from point A to point B. And it felt like they all got through it. And I was like, and they all wanted to continue. I was like, all right, we'll do another workshop series, another one. I did not expect it to be like this ongoing um class, but kept growing. And then they're like, we want to do this more, we want to take it outside the studio. Within six weeks, it was up to 150 guys, and yeah, and it was incredible. And so I just like my mind was just like blown because I think they knew there was a need there. And I think guys do long for, like when I was in high school, the soccer team, they are still my friends to this day. And I remember this camaraderie and um doing something shoulder to shoulder with their my guy friends. I felt like more comfortable like goofing around and talking to them. And and I think it's the same thing with yoga, but as an adult, it's like it took some time, some developing a like no trust factor with one another. Yeah. I think that is also key. And and um they lo and behold, would start to have these more meaningful conversations about I'm going through a tough thing with my divorce, or uh, this is what's going on with my health. And that once the floodgates opened, boy, this conversations just kept going. Like there, there was a real true, I think, desire to be able to talk like this. But I think, guys, um there's some something about doing something physical, whether it's walking or a sport or like the yoga, I think is a really nice way to get that physical component in. Also that you know it's a stillness in beginning and end for your mental health. But then also we like made it a point to like have a little social at least once every series of that class that you know they all loved and got to chat. And so I really think it hit this sweet spot of you know uh physical, mental, emotional, but then the social component. Um, you know, in my mind, I'm I'm like, wow, it's all all those components are there, but for them, it was just like we're just going doing yoga, you know. I didn't try not to make a big deal about it, but it's that um third, I've heard people call it uh the third place. There's an author that coined that term. I I can't remember. It used to be church for folks.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but was it the Robert Putnam?
SPEAKER_00:I think you're right. I think so. And um, you know, it was mainly church, I think, for folks for years, and I think it's coming back a little bit, but um, but having the gym, but specifically, I think having uh a class series or something where it's like uh you're going through something together, I think it's really um, for me at least, hit a sweet spot. And for me, it was a godsend personally of entering a yoga class in different workshop series, and then as a teacher that way, it's um I think there's something something about the community component that uh you know lends itself to more social connection and conversations.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I I wanted to follow up. You I I've never heard this before, but I love it. Is the like no trust?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. I love that.
SPEAKER_01:And I I'm gonna make a t-shirt that's LKT or something like that. That I think is the key, yeah. I like that a lot. Did you come up with where did that come from?
SPEAKER_00:So I did over a decade of yoga training. I have like a dual PhD in yoga.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I spent way too much time and money on training with yoga because I once you start learning, you just want to learn more. But I had a really lovely, exceptionally good teacher. Unfortunately, she doesn't teach anymore, but um, Jenia La Rosa, her name was. But it's um part of the uh skill that you develop teaching is that you know, developing a culture around the class. She always said three years. If you teach regularly at the same time, same class, to develop a culture around the class, which I was like, dear gosh, that seems like a long time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right, though. It's really true. Um, and she's, you know, this like no trust factor as a teacher, that's it's almost like that old coaching saying, like, show them that you care before they care what you know. Yeah. You know, you start to just land more, you start to um give them more. You can be more always positive, but you could give them more feedback and help them develop a little bit more. They'll start to trust you more. And so it's it's an interesting. I I love this uh skills, like as a teacher, to to learn how to communicate more effectively, like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and you know, and we've all experienced situations where we've been in these contexts, a class or a team or a job where that doesn't happen. And what's what I love about what you're saying is it's intentional. Like this is intentional. You're doing this like you're doing it from in here, right? You're not doing it because you know, it might have payoff where you have the class goes from 10 people to 20, but it also has a payoff because people are seen, they're they're they're comfortable, they get more out of the class, then maybe there's a social element that kind of transcends the class. So I think like what you're saying, I I love the idea of it. And and you know, like when you think about building a third place, a third place isn't just you know, in Australia they have this program that's called uh men'sheds. And so suicide was such a high issue in the country of Australia, and especially in like you know, what we call it the outback, right? Yeah, you know, the bush or whatever they're you know, whatever they're yeah, I I I love an Australian accent and I love when they start talking about these using these terms and stuff, but they were talking about, you know, in the bush or in the outback or the people live far away on the farms and things, way out from the big cities in Australia, the suicide rate among men was super high. And and they realized that a lot of this had to do with their connectivity with other men, and so the government in Australia had invested in a number of these what they called men sheds, and so they basically built a clubhouse, and it was a clubhouse that had tools and equipment for you to do woodworking or yeah, whatever the specialty of interest was in that community. They did a little bit of research, they kind of identified a person to kind of lead that space and be responsible to kind of open and close it and coordinate. Um, but what they found over time was the men just started to come and they started to be together. I don't know if they were drinking beers in there or anything like that. I don't know, I don't know about the fine details of this program, but now it's an international men's shed, as you can find it online and and it's kind of like guidance and plenty of research around it, and just how it kind of gave many men an opportunity to go and be seen. You know, it had that opportunity to oh, I like woodworking and I, you know, I like kind of being around people and they're far away farmers or what have you, but it gave them a space to be. Over time, they built the trust like yourself. To kind of be part of a community and kind of give themselves an opportunity to connect with other people. And I think that you know this is this is really critical. You mentioned Robert Putnam. I just had the chance to meet uh the person who put together a new documentary, and it's on Netflix. You can watch it if you have Netflix and plug in that Netflix. But the thing is, the movie is called Join or Die. Okay, so Robert Putnam wrote this book called uh Bowling Alone a while back. And and recently he actually wrote a piece with uh Richard Reeves from American Institute for Boys and Men uh that was in the New York Times. We could link to that in the in the notes on the show. But but this movie Join or Die is kind of a continuation of the um uh bowling alone, in that now we know the research around the benefits of being in community and being together and being part of a being part of something bigger than yourself. And we talk often about men need to have purpose, and oftentimes you find your purpose from communities, not not everybody, but a lot of people. And so, and not everybody is gonna lead a community, not everybody is going to be a follower in a community, and some people like to lead for a little while and become a follower for a little while. So you kind of like you can have a bunch of different roles in this space, but it's important to think about because you know, in the movie they talk about a number of different contexts in which people have an opportunity or or look for ways in which to connect, and it's it's a really nice piece that um uh you know I suggest it for your listeners if they're really interested in this space, because I I do think it's it person it like it presents, you know, it's visual and and they have a lot of different people they're talking to. Robert Putnam's all over this movie as well, this documentary. Um, but it's it's in there. Um but the other thing you're talking about too is that you know, three years is a long time, and when you're at day one of three years, it seems like a long way away, right? Yes, but when you're a year and a half in, or like I was saying at the beginning of this conversation, like here we are at the end of the year, and I can't believe we're here on one side, and the other side it seems like it took a long time to get here. But um, you know, three years really isn't that much in the grand scheme of things in terms of you have to go to work every day, you're doing you know, you're doing all these other things in your life at the same time, and to be consistent over time um is really key. There's there's this I I watch um I'm a huge football fan, I love American football. It's you know, and if you can't tell from my accent, I'm from central Massachusetts, so the Patriots kind of stuff. Oh boy, oh no. I live through the shitty days of the Patriots, and now I live through the great days of the Patriots. They're looking good. They I've I've definitely taken my I took my lumps for the first 30 years. But the thing is, um they the there's a there's an announcer on ESPN called his name is Herm Edwards. He was the coach of the Philadelphia Eagles for a while, he's pretty well known in the space, and he had this saying that was uh the most important ability for football player is availability. And I think if we translate that to kind of like spaces, whether it's the yoga space or it's the friendship space or it's the parenting space or it's the partner space, you're being available to other people in proximity and showing up, you know, it's not just being physically available, although that is really key, but it's also like being available emotionally and being ready to listen and being ready to like maybe not react and just kind of sit with them for a moment, you know, and have that moment of kind of clarity and and being in community together, you know, that's really essential. To we need that, I think we need that to support.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. It's one of my biggest, greatest fears of living somewhere cities wear on me. I love it for a lot of reasons. It's nice to have a blend of both. I'm up here more rural, I grew up very rural, great upbringing, nothing against it. But I see folks as they age in these areas, especially rural areas, where I'm like, doggone it, they're just uh not many opportunities for them unless they drive 30, sometimes 40 minutes to find. But then you got to be particular about the company you keep because you become the the company you keep. And so you got to keep good company. And I love facilitating um these sort of groups. I think I wish what is difficult for me as uh someone who does develop. Now I've got a group up here, I got my group in Philadelphia, and you're totally nailing it. And I think I think, especially for men, they want consistency over time, knowing that the broga class is going to be there every Tuesday and Thursday. And I am that guy because I will I will not waver for a very long time. What's challenging about that is the uh financial component as a teacher. You know, I do it as a labor of love, obviously, but it's just very true, it's very stressful and it's a struggle to uh coordinate and dedicate my time and all my resources to developing my teaching skills and to, but I love doing it. And it's just a matter of kind of being creative and I think multidimensional to try to keep your head above water financially while still showing up for these communities. I wish there was um, I'm always trying to think of creative or better ways to make it sustainable financially. I've I've noticed um a lot of crews, a lot of guys, communities now are like, yes, I want to pay you ahead of time, even though I might miss a class because I want to keep this going. And I think me, I've learned by being upfront with guys that, you know, hey, I'm a little nervous about charging this amount of money. What do you think? You know, I know you've got to miss this one class. You don't have to pay for the whole series, maybe, but this is how it works with discounts. If you sign up for the full thing, you get a little discount, you know? They're like, oh no, we want take the full. A lot of guys I've noticed when you're up front with them about like your hesitation and asking for compensation so that you feel valued and you're able to continue to keep it going, they're I think more so than ever, willing to be like, totally get it. We know you're not making millions of dollars on this. Yeah. And we want you to keep going. And so it's been a tricky thing to navigate the financial component, but I I've noticed over some time, just having that conversation with the guys being up front and like, does it feel fair? Do you feel okay? Like, and maybe there'll be an individual you had to kind of be a little more flexible with, and that's fine, but it's just it's a it's a tough thing, you know, for guys who want to um start their own, you know, men's community. And uh, like you said, that consistency over a long stretch of time for guys, I think really hits that spot where they that's what they want. And I'm I'm with them. I will do the same.
SPEAKER_01:You have these conversations with them around you feel like this price is fair and that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:I do, because there's been times where I've made decisions throughout my running my business where I'm like, I've either got to blow this class up and stop teaching it because I can't afford doing this anymore, or uh, you know, I uh kind of ask, hey, can we reorganize this pay structure? And if I and then I'm just like in my mind do these mental gymnastics and throw my hands up and be like, you know, I I can't, I don't have the again, it's kind of leaning into a difficult conversation, but instead of having that conversation, I was in the past being like, I just guys, I can't I can't afford this. I love you guys, and I want to continue to jump to you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they respond, they respond to the conversation and they've worked it out a good time.
SPEAKER_00:Well, not every time, not every time, not every time. No, there's no question, there's been some times where we just couldn't get the numbers, you know, yeah, of guys after some time. And you know, but that's after a decade, you know, maybe that's and then COVID happened. You know, there's a lot of things that could contribute to that. But now with um this other group I've started up here, I've had those conversations early on um about pay structure. How do you guys feel? You know, this is why I charge this much. And um yeah, I was surprised when they were like, yeah, you should charge at least this much, and maybe you raise it. And maybe, and you know, you like they like we like the fact that, and they understand they're like this is keeping us accountable to show up, you know, and there's something to that too. Um, not to say that every guy's community has to be pay to do something, but when they're learning a skill and bettering themselves through practice in a class, like I said, there's something of value, I think, in that. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I was just gonna say, like, I'm listening to you and I'm hearing you say, like, they should be paying you a shitload more because what really is happening here is you're not only giving them the the yoga class, right? And the opportunity to take the class. And I'm not I'm not trying to juice you up in terms of like asking for more money, but seeing the value in that not only are they participating in this class and stretching their body and getting the physical benefits of this, right? There's that community element, like you talked about, and you know, kind of building that community and the trust, but also you're modeling an incredibly vulnerable conversation, like how hard was that conversation? I mean, and having and being brave, I'm like honestly, really brave to have that conversation with them and to say, like, hey man, I love this, but it's it's not really working for me, help me figure out this like great leadership that is. Do you know what I mean? Like when you read the leadership literature around what works and why people love a leader, they love them for these things, right? So for being clear, communicating challenging situations, bringing people in to resolve the problems and to kind of work collectively to resolve the issue, um, and and being fair. I mean, and that is fuck, they should be paying you a ton of thanks. I hope they realize like you the decency you've shown them, and and quite honestly.
SPEAKER_00:No, I appreciate that. Sometimes I think like that's just me in my own bumbling, terrible way, trying to communicate my own problems. But that's the only way I know how is being like completely truthful with them, you know, is like, hey, this is what I'm going through, honestly. Like, I love this, I want to keep doing this, and they know I'm like, we need at least this many guys to keep this going. And I'm like, I can sleep at night if it's this many guys. And I hate to think about it about numbers, but but they, you know, a lot of guys kind of want to keep it a the best kept secret, too, is the thing. Some of them they're like, and so I'm like, please, you gotta tell your friends, and so they understand, yeah. And it's part of the culture too, though, is like, hey, this is not just like I'm gonna do this in isolation and nobody, I'm not gonna tell anybody about this yoga stuff, okay? Like, don't tell anybody. Sometimes I've asked for testimonies, like, yeah, no, I'll get tell you how I feel, don't put it out there for people to know. Some guys are like very secretive about it for whatever reason. I don't know. But then, you know, I think I have to, as the teacher, be like spread the word, bring in your friend who's struggling with the knee injury, you know. And um yeah, it's I I appreciate the kind words. It's uh, like I said, it's been a learning experience over the past almost 20 years.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, and I mean, and sometimes communities end too, right? So, like maybe like this group of guys are like they change, they morph, it goes down and then it picks back up with different people exactly go through the cycles and things, you know, it makes me think about like sometimes it always sometimes it can take a central person or a couple of people. So a lot of like my my background is in like behavior change and in uh community psychology, which is really kind of focusing on a lot of different things related to kind of changing group attitudes and group behaviors uh around either health topics or um you know educational processes or things like this. I worked in the beginning, I worked in school systems as a teacher. I kind of transferred into schools with some of that um training that I that I had. Um, and I've worked on technology topics and things like this too. But oftentimes it comes down to a central person, like so, like in a school, the research that I had done in schools was that you know they were integrating this. This was in the early 2000s, and um, you know, they were focusing on how technology is being integrated into school systems and into classrooms, right? And which teachers and which schools were most effective in this? And what it really came down to was the principal, right? So you might have a district level mandate, you might have, but how the principal manages or the direct the director of the school, um, how they manage their expectations and how they articulate their expectations for the for the teachers in the classroom? Do they check lesson plans? Do they look at the way in which the lesson plan integrates technology? Are they providing training? Are they modeling the training uh in their own when they're given a staff meeting? Or, you know, are they utilizing the technology to kind of you know show we can do this together? Uh, can are they accepting of failure? Like, are they helping people go through failure and moments of of challenges? And I think you know, that's really critical to kind of building and fostering, you know, it's the luck. What was it?
SPEAKER_00:Like no trust, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean no getting there, right? So I think it's really key. And I those those, you know, whenever you have communities, sometimes it does fall on a central individual. And and uh talk for a minute about amazing experience I've been fortunate to have over the last few years. Is I have a really good friend out in California who I've known since I've known him since kindergarten, literally since kindergarten. We were in Dickie Deshain's class together, right? So um he and I kind of hit it off right away as little kids. We separated a little bit for a few years, and then back in middle school, like went to different schools after a while, and then middle school, uh, we were back together and have been tight ever since. And so Johnny is out in Marin County in San Francisco San Francisco in California, and he's kind of we've both made friends along the way, different people, different groups, and we have other childhood friends who also have done the same and kind of we drag people along into our kind of collective group of people. But Johnny's really kind of like a uh good connector, he's always connecting with people to you know, kind of, oh, let's let's get together here, and these guys are here, and kind of like being that central cog in the wheel of of like you know, coordination and and functionality in terms of terms of like events or going to do a hike or something like this. And a few years ago, uh several times I've gone out to his house in Marin and we've done hikes from that area, it's a beautiful part of the country, all that kind of stuff. And um, you know, a few years ago he coordinated a trip around uh the Wonderland Trail around Mount Rainier in up in Washington State, ridiculous, like you know, covering huge mileage every day. Everybody had to train and show up for this. But you know, I showed up in the in in California, or I showed up in in uh Washington, and we all kind of met there, and then I didn't know half of these guys, right? I didn't, I these are guys from his other other parts of his life, you know, and and a few guys I knew from other meetings and other couple guys from Fitchburg, our hometown. But um, you know, it was one of those instances in which you kind of have this person who everybody kind of trusts and everybody is is connected with, and you're he knows that you're all kind of connected in the same way. You come with the same mentality or kind of same kind of joking attitude, or you like similar things, not everything the same, and you but you he can kind of feel that out. I'll tell you like I left that trip, you know, we were together like five or six days, and I left that trip and I was like, huh, I could pick up the phone and call this guy or that guy who I had never met before, and kind of, you know, but sometimes it just takes that central person to kind of pull the people together and communicate effectively, be very well organized and kind of do those things that other people aren't gonna do, or if you leave it to be, it's never gonna get done. Um, assign responsibilities and things like that. So it's just really, really nice because even in that moment, too, everybody showed up to exercise and do this big hike, but we weren't talking about 40 40-meter dash splits, or you know, how much weight we could lift or the longest hike I've ever been on, or we were talking about kids, funny, stupid experiences we've had, you know, when things gone wrong, you know, kind of mutual interests, topics, music, sports, whatever. And on that trail, you know, you kind of there were people who kind of one for one portion of the day, they're in the front of the pack, and then the other portion of the day they're in the back of the pack, and you kind of like move yourself around, and you over the course of the of the days, you kind of had conversations with everybody, and you had that opportunity to kind of kind of gel and connect and was so valuable. And like, I know I could call up this guy, Dave, who lives three houses down from Johnny if I really needed something, or you know, when I go to Johnny's house, I'm like, hey, tell Dave I'm coming so we can kind of get some beers or hang out or go for a hike or whatever. I can hear what's going on. Or his kid went to school at Georgetown right here, and we met up and went for a run, you know. So, like that kind of thing is really kind of having people who will kind of build that third space, even if it's a temporary third space. Is essential, right? Because we all we all we all crave it. Guys really crave it.
SPEAKER_00:Totally.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And also like I heard this woman uh uh I can't think of her name exactly. She's she's a very popular podcaster, and she was talking about how when you and this is where the intentionality comes in, right? So when you're a kid, you're going through life in like a we go through life in cohorts, right? So you're kind of like in a group of people, say you're in a school and you're all going through first grade together, second grade together. Maybe kids will switch classrooms here and there and it'll mix up, but you're all kind of sharing this similar experience within the same school. And maybe it's different by the teacher you have or the reading assignment you've got, or like the team you're on for basketball, but you're kind of experiencing the same thing together, right? And then you get to then you get to high school and middle school, and you've kind of gone through these steps with uh with the people um that that you're you're you're you're kind of started with. Then you go to college, and so then your group kind of bifurcates, right? So you kind of move into spaces where you have to bring in new people into your life, you have to figure out how to navigate those relationships, and then your other friends kind of go and they have to navigate their relationships, and maybe you come back together, but you're also still kind of experiencing the same thing, but it's different, right? So, like if you went to uh Johnny actually, he went to Holy Cross and I went to Clark University, which was literally a mile and a half apart. But fortunately, we kind of blended our friend groups where I would show up at Holy Cross every now and again and hang out with his buddies, and his buddies would come over and hang out at Holy at Clark and that kind of thing. But it's you know, so you kind of have that situation where you're you're figuring out like what you know, how you live in this space and how you kind of carry your history with you, right? Then as you get older, the separations get bigger, right? So you distance, and and so then it takes more work to maintain those connections, and it's more work to kind of make new connections in that context and figure out where you're going. And this is where the relationships kind of come into play, right? So a lot of guys when they're in high school and middle school, they start to enact really like it starts early, like sixth, seventh grade. You start to enact these masculine norms. You you want to be more independent, you want to be more stoic, you want to, you know, kind of shit doesn't bother me. I'm tough. I don't, I don't care about this. Oh, she doesn't like me, I'm not sad about that. To hell with her or whatever, you know, you you stay all these stupid things when you're a kid, right? And hopefully not too many stupid things, but it happens. And I think you know, if if if you don't have opportunities to make the mistakes and kind of have people who forgive you and kind of love you and take you in in certain ways and listen to you and and give you an opportunity to express your feelings, you kind of can stick, you can get stuck, right? You can get stuck in those spaces and not have and not have the ability to do the things like you did with that yoga class and being vulnerable and sharing those experiences. You know, I mean, to me, you know, there were moments where I I totally had bought into the whole like, yeah, I you don't don't talk to me like that because I'm too tough for that kind of, you know, I'm not gonna show you any emotion because that's the way I am. But then I realized over time, like, it's not getting me anywhere, it's not doing me any good. And so um, it's really key to like figure out where the balance is for you as you kind of go through these relationships because it's really what keeps your relationships you fostering those relationships is essential, and part of it's being vulnerable and be and listening to other people. So there's a long way around to get there, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, I love it, dude. I I love all of that. There's so many things that came up, but um, there at the end, you know, I think guys are very much drawn, myself included. Like, I will do it myself, damn it. Like, I will I am the Lone Ranger. This Lone Ranger narrative isn't exactly accurate. But I do think guys, I think there's like um guys like to have some independence, like, oh, I did this and this, but I think also once you realize the power of connecting and figuring things out with other people as a team, you're like, oh shoot, this got done a lot more effectively, and we uh all learned something more, like I've I feel like I've gained be by joining the group. But um, but I think guys do enjoy being like, hey, I did my part as the individual. And then it's I think it's like a nice, if you could have a nice blend of like individualism, and then like all these guys would take their work or the things that they're doing as an individual and come to Broga and like kind of kind of humble brag, kind of, but also kind of just throw ideas off of one another, like they all own different restaurants and bars and establishments, and they're like, hey, really liked how you put like that little bowtie design in the live edge counter of your bar. Like, could let me ask. Like, I looked on YouTube, like, this is how they said to do it, but is that how you really do it? And they're like, Oh, let me show you, you know, and yeah, and there's something about like the guys like to do have some sort of individual, like, I'm very capable, but I think once you realize that also you could inject that into group uh effort, it's like a beautiful blend of uh of uh both, I feel.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And it's just even asking those questions, like think about the guy asking about the the edge in the on the bar, yeah, right. So he's gotta show like he's showing that he doesn't know everything, right? So he's taking away that level of independence, right? And doing things only on his own or just use utilizing YouTube or whatever. Thank God for YouTube. YouTube, I've learned a lot. But you know, it is always nice. Like I had an instance a couple years ago where I'm terrified of like electricity, right? Like I don't want to mess with the lights, I don't want to put, I don't want to touch that stuff. Yeah, and I a friend of mine was telling me how he had put in all these recessed lights in his house, and so I knew I had to change a couple of light fixtures outside on the back porch, and um, I was like, Hey Jay, uh maybe this weekend you could pop down, show me how to do this, and he's like, Yeah, no problem, what time, you know, and and the thing is like I I probably wouldn't have gotten electrocuted, but the reality is that you know it was also nice. He came down, hung out for a little bit, had a couple of beers, and we just kind of we talked about other things, right? So, you know, kind of the putting it out there sometimes can result in in improving the friendship as well as kind of getting something done, like getting the two lights put on on the on the back deck.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, there's something to that important.
SPEAKER_01:It's a lot, yeah. I think there's a lot to it and the value of it, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Richard's Richard Reeves says this, and I do repeat it a lot because um it's so true. It's uh like this shoulder-to-shoulder therapy, guys. Like, rather than let's go just have a coffee and talk, which I do still, but like I I think more than often we like to do something like the hike, like the yoga alongside your your friend. Um, and uh things seem to just flow more naturally from there. But um, but yeah, so much of this in as a teacher in that men's class, uh I my mind's just going because as a teacher, you could really um you could really bring these behaviors on yourself by exemplifying it. Like um, someone's new to class, I make it a point to get over there and talk to them. I make it a point to bring them up with positive reinforcement. And, you know, guys also like to know when they're doing something right or wrong. They're like, hey, point A to point B, here's what you could do. Move your hand this little quarter of an inch that way. You got it, you know? And so there's that, but it's also, I don't think a lot of guys have a lot of positive uh reinforcement in their life from the time they're like sports growing up, it's always not good enough, not good enough, at least in my experience. Um, when I first came to yoga and they were like, whoa, look, you know, good job. I was like, huh, I'm really enjoying this. Like, I didn't know back then, but there was a teaching technique.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But I noticed the whole group, you know, this is again over the course of a time, all these guys would make it a point after class to go up to the new guy and introduce and talk and make it a point to be like, hey, you did great. Hey, we noticed your lunge, man. Holy shit. It was just cool. It's like they became the class, you know, they became like the teacher. It was very, it's very interesting that uh, but just as a teacher, I I think of different ways to facilitate that. Like if someone shows up late, I might leave a space where their Matt could go next to the guy that they haven't been next to yet, so that they have to connect, you know. So it's just like little things like that. And they uh they pick up whether they realize it or not. I I hear my own language come out of their mouths afterward, and then like right on, like, be they're very positive. I've if they saw how they walked in, slumped over and negative, and um, you know, the masonry contractors, like, I haven't closed my eyes and not thought about work in 28 years, you know. This I cried in Shavasana, and like I never thought, you know, Bill Proud, the historical Mason uh would ever say that, you know, I he had this deeply emotional, profound experience. It's just I think guys want the opportunity for these things to come forward. It's just like having it not be awkward or forced, I think, is really uh is really key.
SPEAKER_01:And I think what you're saying, what I'm hearing you say too, is like, and not in a braggy way, but to say like you're building a culture that makes it not feel uncomfortable to do those things, right? And so that, you know, you think about like the kid who says, Oh, my father never hugged me, or my, you know, I never heard people say I love you. Well, that doesn't have to be your whole life. It it's it, you know, it can be something that is, you know, really key to your this moment and how you're gonna live your life going forward, right? Um and also like the shoulder-to-shoul stuff is I like that a lot too, because it makes a lot of sense, whether it's the hike example or you know, cutting down trees with chainsaws one day, you know, or like you know, catching a conversation in between a bunch of other stuff that you're that you're doing with somebody else. I think that's really I think it's just the way men operate in a lot of a lot of ways, but um I also it it takes away some of the the intensity of that the emotions that are involved too, right? So you got this other thing to kind of allow you to that facilitates conversation and allows you to kind of open up. And sometimes you have to be the challenge with that is that you have to be ready to hear it too, right? So a lot of guys may not be ready to kind of receive comments from a from another person um that are kind of either asking for assistance or um, you know, kind of connect, trying to connect in a certain way. Um, and and that can take that can take a little bit of practice and a little bit of thoughtfulness. One of the things I like to kind of promote when I talk on these podcasts or I'm I'm in spaces, and some of the things I write is like so if you have a situation where somebody has uh either opened up to you or they have given you a moment of like, you know, I'm going through this shitty time right now, or I'm uh or like you know, I this was really difficult, or even it's like I was so excited to, you know, maybe they we never really Simon Sinek, all these other people say these things a lot, like we never really allow ourselves to celebrate joy, right? It's all sometimes we can articulate our sorrow and our pain better than we can articulate our happiness and sharing our happiness, and sometimes people don't know how to receive joy either. Um, but but but the point of what I was getting to is that we have these computers in our hand all the time, these little phones, and that that allow us to be connected in positive ways, not just in the stupid manosphere and the and the social media dynamics. We can actually use them for good. And and so what you can do is you can send somebody after you've met them for coffee or you've had a conversation about uh something difficult or something awesome. Like maybe they I'm in this point of life where my I have one daughter in college and another one who's a senior in high school, and now we're hearing about the acceptances and all this other stuff, and like you can share the joy, you can say, like, hey, I'm so happy that your daughter got into that school. That's great news. Um she must be so relieved, your household must be something. Take the five the two minutes and write the text and say that's great news. I'm really happy for you and your family, I'm really happy for your daughter. Or if someone told you something that was more difficult, say, Hey, I heard you today. If you ever want to talk, reach back out anytime, or I'll be thinking of you. Or I just had a friend who actually not even really my friend, he's a guy I met fishing. I like to go fly fishing with this guy, Jay. And Jay has this other friend, his name is Tippy, and Tippi like had this, his daughter got really sick, and Jay came over the other day and he was like telling me, Oh yeah, Tippi's daughter's sick, and I'm on a text thread with the three of us. And I was like, Hey, Tippi, I heard about you. I mean, I don't I know Tippi a little bit, but I don't know him as well as I know Jay. You know what I mean? But he got right back to me and he was like, Thank you. And it wasn't even like a short thank you, it was a long thank you. And the point is that it's you use the stupid phone, but use it for the right reasons, you know. Like we have it there, and we can actually utilize it to positively impact somebody's life. And it doesn't need to be a five-page something, it can be two sentences. I'm thinking of you, I'll be thinking of you and your daughter, you know. So I think it's really it's an easy way to kind of improve connection and connectivity with people. Um, and it doesn't have to be every single day. It doesn't, it's just if you think about it, do it. Take the minute and do it because you're gonna be better off for it down the line.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's something that I myself struggle with. I think a lot of guys do in that. Like, are they gonna think this is weird if I reach out, right? And you're not 10 years old. Exactly. Well, that's what I was gonna say, man. I was gonna say, Dominic, like, um, I feel like nowadays maybe I'm just getting soft in my old age, or it's just age. I want to call it wisdom. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We can call it that.
SPEAKER_00:Listen, I a lot of these guys I've taught yoga for 15 years. I'll reach out, you know, and see how they're doing and or like congratulate them, like you said. And with this group, you know, they've known each other so long, they might bring up something they had accomplished or their kid accomplished, and they'll bring it up in front of the group, and like the group will freaking applaud. I'm like, what is this going on? I'm like, they'll applaud when the class is over every time, they'll applaud their like uh Bill's daughter got into college, you know, they'll all stop the class and stand up and applaud. It's really fascinating. And like they just, I think, long, I think guys long for they think you go through life maybe thinking as a guy that like you know, focus next thing. Okay, I accomplished this, next thing, next thing. But like you're saying, I love that. Um also take the time to celebrate the victories and celebrate others' victories.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I it it it helps because it that's being in community, right?
SPEAKER_00:Totally.
SPEAKER_01:That's being in community. Yeah, I think it's it's really key. And I it it yeah, I uh I don't know. I it it's I say this and sometimes I even hesitate, you know? And sure. Then I'm like, oh shit, I should have done this, and I'll even send it late or whatever. But yeah, I you I rarely very rarely do I regret it.
SPEAKER_00:Totally, right, right. Yeah, there's there's big moments in life where um like one of our founding uh yoga students is going through uh you got a had a heart attack, he had a quadruple bypass surgery, expected full recovery, gosh love him. He's a tough guy, but um sweet guy. But then there's moments like that where I'm like, man, definitely reach out, like definitely to because you don't know what's gonna happen. I talked to him, I had him in class the night before. I texted him the morning after for another class, and literally a couple hours later, he had a heart attack. You know, he was supposed to be in the class, and I was like, huh, what happened? And you just never know. And so it's like not to go dark, get dark or uh negative, or just like it's just big picture, like you don't know you know what's gonna happen um the next day or the next hour, even like yeah, yeah, yeah. Go for it, you know, send a text.
SPEAKER_01:It is, and and sometimes you may not be in the headspace to do that, right? So once you are, you've got to kind of reach out and make those connections. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it can really help you out in the long run, and even if you're just kind of getting it off your chest, you know. Right. So yeah. Um, yeah, good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Dominic, I know I've taken off a lot of your time. I um, you know, I'd like the direction our conversation went. I I think this is what I'm most interested in with your experience and opinion and your work and and just how you feel individually as someone who's coming from it with your sort of expertise, how you think about these things involving you know, men's health and um and all these different components of it. Um, but is is there anything else that you want to uh put out there? I know we had a list of many other topics, I might have to bring you back on, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I I no, I mean, I think the just to kind of so like as I mentioned the space of men's health and men's, you know, reproductive health in particular, like I I work on a across a wide range of topics, and I'm affiliated with an organization called Next Life Science, and they have a male contraceptive method called Plan A. And that plan A method is um uh you know it's it's in clinical trial right now, and they're trying to figure out whether or not this this is if you want to learn more about this space, you can look up Next Life Science and Plan A, or you can go to an organization that is called. The male contraceptive initiative. And they have a variety of different methods that are already in clinical trial and in being tested. I think you know, we to bring it all back to reproductive health. Um, and that dynamic is is in play and then and it's you know that they're trying to get those to through FDA approval over time. Um and hopefully in the next five or six years, those will be available for men. Um, and when they do become available, it's gonna really change the change the conversation, right? So, like when you're a high school kid, is this something that you start talking about? Uh, I don't know if if they'll have age limits on these things or how they'll kind of go about putting the regulations on it, but um definitely something that could be like a reversible, long-acting contraceptive for men. Some of them are in the form of pills and gels uh that deal with hormonal shifts and changes in the body. Others are the one that I'm affiliated with, plan A, uh, is a vas occlusion technique, meaning it blocks the vasdephrine and it blocks the um the sperm from going through the vasdephrin. It just gets reabsorbed in the body. Uh, and then when you want to have, if if all goes right with the with the trials and things, the when you want to have a child, you will then get a reversible, uh it will be reversed through an injection within the vase again, and then uh you'll extract or you'll expel the uh the the blocking agent. Um and you can you can learn more about this online. I think this is a really exciting and like cutting-edge space when it comes to health in general, um, and reproductive health in particular. Uh, you know, we've had female contraceptive methods for decades now, and there's never been a male contraceptive method. So like this, other than vasect after vasectomy and the and uh vasectomy withdrawal and condoms, those are all we have for guys. So now we need a few more methods, especially lung acting and reversible ones. Um but it's a it's a fun space and it's you learn a lot. You learn about a lot about terms of like what men will accept. And and when we think about the number of methods that women have, whether it's the variety of pills or the um, you know, the the different uh implants or the the IUDs or even like the permanent methods like tubal ligation, um you know, it's one of those things that not every method will be for every guy. And so you have to kind of have the range and of methods for different men to pick and choose what it is that they want to use um and what works best for their reproductive health. And so hopefully over time we'll have that kind of evolved and and on the market. Yeah, it's fascinating, it's a really exciting space.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's interesting. Like I said, I I talked to Sarah, very popular. I wish I had Sarah Hill, I believe, on the podcast. She wrote the period brain, but we kind of joked like, why isn't there any male pill, the pill for men? And uh it's interesting. I did I did not know that was part of what you were working on, or a big part, and very cool. Um, and I've noticed a lot of your um your work with the American Institute for Boys and Men. Do you want to just touch on what's going on there?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so right now I'm in the process of writing a playbook for men's health and increasing men's access and uh integration and utilization of health services, like some of the things we talked about earlier in this in this conversation. Um, and what does the research say around those things? So I'm hopefully I'll I'll have that completed at the end of this month um and hand it over to them for review and and commentary and and suggested changes. Um, but I'm hoping that will be done soon. Um, but AIBM's got a bunch of different things, like so one of the big things that they're kind of focused on right now is what are called heel jobs, which is health, education, and lit uh literacy. And so sometimes this is called like the care economy, and oftentimes these jobs are populated by women. So, like in this, these heel jobs, it's it's estimated that I think it's something like 22%. I I think I saw 22% or a little bit lower are males. Uh sorry, 22% of these jobs are filled by males. Sorry. And so it's mostly female dominated. Um and it's it's a space that they anticipate in the next couple of years is going to continue to expand. And so when you think about whether it's teachers or literacy or, you know, kind of health-related jobs, um, caring for individuals, aging populations, or people who need special assistance, um, these are this is a potential place for men to find work and employment. Um, and it also kind of goes outside of the typical roles that men play. I when I think about this space, I think about the fact that earlier I mentioned my friend Johnny, and he and I were both in a kindergarten class with uh um Richard Deshains was our teacher. But by sixth grade, I had had three male teachers in elementary school. Today it would be kind of unique for a anyone, a boy or girl, to have even one male elementary school teacher. So when we think about that, and I'm not saying that women can't do this job amazingly and better than men in certain situations, but men are underrepresented in this space. And it it has an impact over time, too. Um, and you know, not only does every kid need to have a diversity of exposure to different types of adults, um, but it also kind of is a space where men could play a bigger role in uh the workforce and and kind of lean into those spaces as a teacher or a nurse or uh things like this. I mean, but this space is a big uh area of of advocacy and policy analysis for the American Institute for Boys and Men. And I know Richard Reeves in particular, this is a big area for him to kind of lean into and weigh in on uh in the conversation. Additionally, like there's a new there's one of the other individuals at AIBM is David Sasaki. And he, I think he's the one who's leading up this other space that is now called it's the Boys and Men Online space, which is like a it's a whole platform. They're gonna have a podcast, but they're also it's a whole platform of research around um, you know, two big things, and I wrote it down here so I don't get it wrong. So it's like simulations and mastery of like sports betting, gamified finance, and gambling uh in video games. And so they're really gonna take a deep dive and look at these topics and like some of the challenges around them. What does it mean? What are we seeing in this space? Because gambling has become legal and available to everybody at such a high level at this point, we need to really take a critical look at it and also to kind of equip young men in particular, uh, because they use these spaces the most, in how to navigate that space and how not to get sucked into kind of the negative outcomes that can happen with topics like with issues like gambling, right? And finance, um, you know, cryptocurrency, that kind of thing. Um, and also they're going to develop some simulations of connection. And this is looking at things like AI companions and online pornography and parasocial relationships. And what is the research saying around that? Because this is new, this is all evolving right now. And these AI companions, I don't know how familiar you are with that. I'm still learning about this space, but it's basically like pornography on steroids because you're you're not only viewing, you know, like you're viewing pornography, but you're also interacting with it in a way that is different, um, and is tailored to your interests and and desires, right? So how how effective is this in terms of like addiction addiction and um, you know, kind of unhealthy social behaviors? And how can you kind of, if people are gonna use it, which they probably are over time, how do you uh mitigate that use and how do you move it forward in a space, whether it's policy, programming, or you know, general advice and guidance and you know, kind of regulation to kind of work on these, on these, uh, this space to kind of figure out how to help men in particular, because it's not just men, but in particular, men uh navigate it help in a more healthy way. So that those are two areas of the heels job, the heel jobs as well as the boys and men online dynamics uh and that research space that is being built out by David and his team, uh really gonna be important kind of avenues for AIBM in the next year. I think you're gonna hear a lot more about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's really uh big problems to tackle. And I'm really I'm always looking into what Richard's up to and and folks like yourself and AIBM in general, and um I'm visioning somehow contributing to at some point because I just love their work and I love that they're so mission-driven and the their messaging is so spot on. I think Richard's really phenomenal, and his book is great, and um and your stuff uh, you know, that's exactly why I wanted to speak with you because it's so poignant and so uh it lands, and it's it's something that we all know that's a problem, but we just can't identify it, or we need like a language around it. And you all are, I feel, leading the way in bringing this up.
SPEAKER_01:On behalf of the speaker as Richard, he's he's such a good communicator, he's great. That like, yeah, I I hope someday to be as clear and and kind of like level spoken as he is. He's a very good communicator in this space.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely is, but uh, I don't think you give yourself enough credit, sir. You've you've talked to me for an hour and a half very clearly. So you did you did great note, man. I love this. Are you kidding? Yeah, I was about to say it's almost happy hour. I uh I just I um I really love these topics. I'm just really thrilled that I was able to connect with you and you're able to be patient with me. I know we had I had some tech difficulty. So thank you, man, for for everything. Um is there anything else though you want to put out for folks? I know you sent me links that I will also include in the show notes for folks, but um, anything else you want to put out there on a finding?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, uh the links I shared are around both the AIBM and you know, uh, one other thing that I'm I'm involved in really kind of like my main responsibility. I know we're talking boys and men and men's health today, but you know, I run a I helped to run a project uh focused on women's health and women's reproductive health. Uh and that project is focused on uh ovarian cancer prevention, and it's called Outsmart Ovarian Cancer. And this, you know, ovarian cancer is a very deadly cancer in terms of like five-year mortality rates, and um, it's one of it's a cancer that doesn't really have symptoms or until it's too late. So oftentimes women are diagnosed at stage four and and their outcomes at that point are very poor. Um, and over time, what we've learned is that ovarian cancer doesn't actually most ovarian cancer doesn't actually start in the ovaries, it actually starts in the fallopian tubes. So, what's interesting about this, I've done a number of different projects on male uh, you know, male permanent contraception, meaning vasectomy and the and the the the blocking of the fallopian tubes and that kind of I mean the the the the the the vas deference but now we're talking about uh uh an intervention for ovarian cancer prevention, which is actually the removal of the fallopian tubes. And this procedure is called salpingectomy. And so when you when a woman is done having her reproductive life in terms of having more children and that kind of thing, if she decides she wants permanent contraception, this is to raise awareness of this procedure called salpingectomy, which is the removal of the fallopian tubes. Um, and there's no harm if if everything is healthy, she can maintain her ovaries, receive the estrogen and the and the hormones that that the ovaries generate, um, and it won't accelerate her her menopause and things like that. Um, but this is new, it's not a new technique, but kind of awareness and the value that it brings to uh ovarian cancer reduction uh is now getting out. And we have a web page you can link to in the in the notes. Um, and we're gonna revive that we're in the process of kind of like you know, slow roll out of this website. And then in January, we're gonna launch a kind of a refreshed web page and do a bigger campaign starting in January around ovarian cancer prevention. So, yeah, I work with a woman named Rebecca Stone at Johns Hopkins Hospital or School of Medicine, and um yeah, she's really the expert, and I'm lending my behavior change expertise and some project management skills around like the promotion of this and finding ways to kind of get this integrated into health services for women at the same time. We're doing some research pieces, some big data analysis, national representative samples, and things like this. So it's really it's a it's a very cool project that is um just kind of kicking off. And I'm I'm hoping that everyone will know what this what a salving gectomy is in 12 months. And so yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome, man. Yeah, it's up to so many really meaningful and uh huge projects, it seems. I really uh love that you've hit this really multidisciplinary approach to your work with a lot of things that seem very awesome, like meaningful and uh interesting. And uh I commend you for all your your work and your ability to develop your yourself and your career list. Like this is a lot going on. That's great.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks. It's it's I the I I always say to people like if you work in public health, everything is interesting.
SPEAKER_00:That's the yeah, that's the blessing and the curse of it, right? Uh-huh. Yeah, you got to pick a pick a lane, but then you could some you could seem like there's a lot you could work on for sure. It's never ending, but yeah, yeah. Well, last question. I I was curious, did you watch the 2018 Super Bowl where the Eagles beat the Patriots? Just saying it. I took that team yoga, just so you know.
SPEAKER_01:So we needed one though.
SPEAKER_00:That's uh right. That was a longer time ago, but no, it's yeah, it was uh I taught that team yoga and their trainers more exclusively yoga. Yeah, yeah. So I like to say I had a little tiny piece in that Brandon Graham strip set where Brady went down. That was so great.
SPEAKER_01:Oh the the worst play in that was when they threw the quarterback, they threw the ball back to the quarterback in the Philly special. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they totally stuck it to the Patriots right there, too. Um but it was it's man, you might have prevented a couple injuries and stuff, you know.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know for sure, but I would take all that credit if I that's right, yeah. Oh my gosh. But yeah. I had to get that in there, Dominic. So thanks for taking it.
SPEAKER_01:Because I think this year uh we'll we'll come back after this Alphengectomy project kicks off, or this you know, maybe I can come back again and talk about that project when it kicks off, or the the piece I'm writing for AIBM around men's health access, and um we can see who went further than in the playoffs this year.
SPEAKER_00:I'm in. I'm in. It's the Eagles are looking dismal right now, but it's not a bad couple of weeks for sure. Oh my gosh. This is how this team goes. This city's ready to blow that team up already, trust me.
SPEAKER_01:I honestly the Philly fans are tough, man.
SPEAKER_00:Philly fans are hard to explain to people until you live there, but you'll learn to appreciate the bipolar nature of the I love Jalen Hurts.
SPEAKER_01:I mean Me too. Yeah, I do. He's one of my favorite players in the league. He had a bad week last week.
SPEAKER_00:So his worst week ever, I believe. I've many on many uh statistics with many the worst he's ever. He's known for not turning it over. He had two turnovers in one play somehow. Like that's very hard to do. But yeah, all right, Dominic. I appreciate your time, man. And uh pleasure. I would love to have you back on for real if if if you would uh be willing to uh to entertain me, that'd be great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that'd be great. And maybe even drag along Dr. Stone.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely. I would love that. Let's do it. I I would I would really love that. Okay, man. I appreciate your time. Thanks a lot. Thank you. All right, take care. Bye-bye. Thanks for tuning in. If you found my conversation with Dominic to be helpful, informative, if it got you thinking, please give the podcast a like, subscribe, and share it with all your friends. You can find me on social media at Yoga with Jake, especially on Instagram, or on my website, yogawithjake.com. Until next time, take care of the case.