Getting Gamers

25 - Game Design as a Career?! w/ Geist Theory

• Juke • Season 2 • Episode 25

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This week, I sit down with Geist Theory to talk about turning a love for gaming into a real career in game design.

We dive into the difference between game design and game development, what narrative game design actually is, and the reality of working in the gaming industry. Geist Theory shares his journey from making games as a kid to studying interactive media and eventually working professionally in the field.

 Whether you’re curious about becoming a game designer, love hearing behind-the-scenes gaming discussions, or just want to geek out, this episode is for you. 

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https://www.geisttheory.com/

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Art by Arielle:  Instagram @ProphetOPossum
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Juke:

Getting gamers. Hello and welcome to getting gamers. Your guide to understanding the gamers in your life. I am your host juke and today I am joined by another dear friend. Oh, my God, it's guys theory, right? That you're using, it's not big

Geist Theory:

It is geist theory, okay, hall.

Juke:

you're using geist theory,

Unknown:

yeah, geist theory will be fine. It's a bit more appropriate.

Juke:

Why is, is the other one not appropriate?

Unknown:

Well, it definitely, it is, but, I mean, for different reasons, right? I mean, I don't think smoking is exactly PG 13. That's kind of where my came, my neighbor tag, my second neighbor tag came from was the fact that people were able to hear me smoking over the mics,

Juke:

so

Unknown:

they call me the big haul flickman, because they could also hear myself flick through the mics while I was gaming. So that's where the second tag came to be. I'm not even joking.

Juke:

Wait, can I keep that in? Of course, I love that. Okay, so, but where does Geist theory come from? Though,

Unknown:

Geist theory comes from, like, a long, long time ago where I was considering doing this weird boy band thing with a couple of guys in 1212, years old, yeah,

Juke:

what? Oh, I would have loved you in the boy band. Oh, my god,

Unknown:

yeah. So that's it. So we were just like, Oh, what, you know, like, what did we like at the time? And it was Linkin Park, and we loved Hybrid Theory from Lincoln Park, and I felt like the Hybrid Theory kind of played on the mind and how psychological and societal things come in Clash. So I was like, well, like, why not use that? But instead of Hybrid Theory, just call it like mind theory. But my theory just seemed kind of a generic so I was like, Well, what's another language that has a really cool way of saying mind? And it was German, with Geist, as in the poltergeist, but just mind being Geist being mind. So I was like, Guys, why not guys theory? And ever since it stuck, and that's pretty much it. Just love the ring to it.

Juke:

So the boy band would have been called guys theory. It would have been, it would have been like Lincoln Park style ish, it

Unknown:

would have kind of been like a punk boy band. Yeah,

Juke:

wait, did you guys ever make anything?

Unknown:

No, not necessarily. But later on, later on in my life, died

Juke:

for that though,

Unknown:

however, later on in my life, especially during the pandemic, I started recording. Music under that

Juke:

name. And really, yeah,

Unknown:

how Don't you know this, actually, so

Juke:

musical. You're you do music, what do you play?

Unknown:

Bass, really? Five string bass. Yeah.

Juke:

What? Wait, five string bass. Oh, was not enough for you. No, not

Unknown:

if I wanted to play some that met, like metal core or stuff like that.

Juke:

So is the fifth

Unknown:

is a lower string?

Juke:

Ah, yeah.

Unknown:

So get deeper notes where to do breakdowns a lot easier,

Juke:

yeah. But

Unknown:

then when the pandemic hit, I noticed we couldn't really jam anymore, so I got myself a pedal board and I composed music solely off of

Juke:

looping.

Unknown:

Yep, looping Wawa trebles. I've

Juke:

always wanted to try looping.

Unknown:

It's awesome.

Juke:

It looks so cool.

Unknown:

It's so much fun. And I had so much fun doing that. And because I didn't have any other musicians, I discovered a way to manipulate the bass for it to sound like more than just one instrument and just compose songs based off of

Juke:

you know, my brother has a recording studio. If ever you want to, like, do some more music stuff,

Unknown:

that is a great idea. Yeah,

Juke:

holy crap. Okay, this is so fun. Gosh, I love having my friends on this podcast. I learned so much.

Unknown:

It's actually kind of cool.

Juke:

Okay, well, wow. So the reason you guys clicked on this video and are probably also surprised to find out he's a musician, is because guy's theory here is also a game designer. You move well, you've, do you consider yourself a game designer? Because I know you've studied it. You work in it.

Unknown:

I don't know. I guess I do. I feel like? I feel like the work I'm doing might be a little bit more general than game design? Do I consider myself a game designer? Maybe I just know one thing for sure is that something I've been doing all my life, even as a kid, and not even realizing it, and I prefer not giving it a label, because it doesn't feel like a job to me. It just feels like something that I do every day, regardless, and I've been doing it since I was like a toddler, you know. And I

Juke:

make up games when you

Unknown:

absolutely I kept all of my I've kept all my documentation from when I was a child. You documented your games you made when you were a kid? Yeah,

Juke:

because I made, like, tiny little games with my friends, but like, I didn't document. Oh, my God, you were a little nerdy boy.

Unknown:

I had my old little sketches of little creatures and animals with their own descriptions, and I kept all of it. I was like, you know, what I feel like one day this might, you know, come into fruition. And of course, it's not gonna constantly remain like stupid little drawings that a toddler made, but it could be a way to perceive you. Universe that doesn't exist yet.

Juke:

Yeah, of course,

Unknown:

at least my child mind stayed with me physically, so that I can maybe, you know, inspire myself off of it and do something a bit more with

Juke:

it. So as an adult, when you started getting into game design, your family was not surprised.

Unknown:

No, they weren't surprised. My mother always said, oh, you know, I knew you do something artistic, you know? So, so, yeah, definitely my father, too. He was really leaning into my math grades because of it. There he was,

Juke:

oh yeah. They just knew.

Unknown:

They just knew

Juke:

my I was good in math, but I was I was bad in, like, a lot of other topics. And my parents were also very leaning on it, because they all could tell that I was going to do something creative, I wasn't going to like be sitting at the desk,

Unknown:

I could tell,

Juke:

oh, my God, that's so great. Okay, so I want to start off because you studied game design, right?

Unknown:

That's right.

Juke:

And I think that's a really interesting topic, because this podcast being accessible to non gamers, and the goal here being helping people understand gamers. Often, I see parents and partners too searching to help the gamers in their life, like find themselves when I'm not saying all gamers are finding themselves, just sometimes some people, everyone goes through that phase and people forget to keep gaming and the concept of like things around gaming could inspire them,

Unknown:

and

Juke:

people forget that. And I think studying in game design is something before I met you, I didn't even consider I could study in game design,

Unknown:

right?

Juke:

And like I met you and you were designing the game, and then eventually you started game design, and it was only once you got into school, it wasn't even when you were designing a game that I was like, Oh, that's a field. It's when you went to school. And I was like, Oh, wait, we can study that. Wait, no one told me that.

Unknown:

Yeah, I feel you. I didn't even know I was able to find, like, a perfect program, you know? I mean,

Juke:

how did you find it?

Unknown:

I found it because I initially did a bachelor's in interactive medias, which is kind of like me trying to search something in a communications and media department and just trying to slot myself into something that was able to take me at the time. So

Juke:

interactive media is vague. It could be like, I'm like animation as well as, yeah.

Unknown:

Well, that's, that's what was, that was. What was unique about this program is that it was so general that we actually touched upon a little bit everything. We did procedural, generative art,

Juke:

we

Unknown:

did coding, we did animation, we did video to audio synchronicity with different types of projections, and that's kind of the stuff we were doing at the time. Okay, but when I graduated, I just kind of still didn't feel fulfilled with what I did, because a lot of it wasn't ludic.

Juke:

Ludic like joyful fun,

Unknown:

no. Ludic as a play. Yeah, we didn't do a lot of play, and that's something, for some reason, that bothered me a lot. And I felt like my studies weren't over at that time. And that's where I realized where I got, I got to start looking for something that allows me to do game design, you know, or, you know, create something that's ludic. Because to me, ludic, interactions between people is one of the most important things in the world. Absolutely, honestly, it's just, is what it is, you know, it's, it's evolved and changes as we grow. You know, sometimes it comes around to watching a film together or or, you know, chatting and laughing about something together, but there's always a sense of play in doing that. And that's you just see that in every aspect of life,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

that's why it's so important to me. Yeah? So, so that's when I started searching. And I was, I got a DSS, D, E, S, excuse me, diploma in narrative design, narrative game design,

Juke:

okay? And

Unknown:

it was a one year program. It's like a preparation to a master's. So once I did that, I was like, Yeah, this is, this is the direction I gotta take. I gotta do that.

Juke:

So narrative game design does that. Because the way I see narrative game design, I immediately think of games I have narrators. Is that? What that means?

Unknown:

Yeah, to a certain degree, it's games with narratives, with stories,

Juke:

oh, with narratives and okay,

Unknown:

there could

Juke:

be, there are narratives, yeah, only narrator,

Unknown:

yeah, for sure. But I mean, defining what the narrator is in narrative game is extremely important,

Juke:

yeah, because

Unknown:

that's what conveys how you see the world that the game designers are trying to show you,

Juke:

right? And that's

Unknown:

something that we have to learn as well. Like, like, there are 100 ways to tell the same story, but if you tell it with the different voice, a different narrator, it's a different game,

Juke:

absolutely,

Unknown:

right? So that's another thing. But yeah, so that's what I studied, and I loved it. It was really how to create possible branches, like multiple possible branches, through a story and then applying that to game and, you know, living, basically films.

Juke:

So when I think that I'm imagining that your classes were in some parts coding, in some parts arts like drawing and stuff, and in some parts storytelling,

Unknown:

exactly, exactly, what was really cool about this program is that it took a lot of students from different kinds of fields, so everyone did like. Like excel in something different.

Juke:

So

Unknown:

we didn't have to code. If we didn't, we weren't obliged to code. Because some, most of the most of the projects were get, were given. Is in the hypothetical, you guys are there to create the story of a game, pitch the mechanics. Know how to speak to people about these mechanics. Do you get good feedback, to get bad feedback, learn how to test where your prototype games went wrong. That's kind of what we did. And because we were such a like, you know, mix of different kinds of fields, we always had someone to pick up the other's

Juke:

weight and build such a network

Unknown:

Exactly,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

we had coders like I most of the time I didn't code. At some point I decided to, because I was like, like, I want to learn this. And if there's one time to do it, it's probably when I'm getting evaluated to do it.

Juke:

So, yeah, of course. All

Unknown:

right, let's just do it anyway. I don't know how to do it. What I prefer building the story. Yes,

Juke:

yeah.

Unknown:

But I was like, Okay,

Juke:

once in a while, you know to know what you're asking of your coder as

Unknown:

well. And everyone had their back. It was really, cool, like, for the last period, the last semester of that program, I didn't focus on any class except for our final prototype project. And the people that were in my team for that class made sure to have my back on every other class, just so that I could export a perfect, a perfect prototype.

Juke:

So everyone

Unknown:

was really close in that sense, and they, you know, there was no like subjugating people for not doing enough effort in one because we'd always have each other's back on something else

Juke:

that is such, like a not all programs build community in that way. To have it be being someone who has started and dropped out of many programs, I can say that not all programs build community like that.

Unknown:

Yeah, it was a great experience that was at the University NAD, yeah, that was in Montreal. Yeah,

Juke:

I never heard of

Unknown:

now, it's an organization that comes from UK, so from Chicago to me, but they have a secure sale here in in Montreal, and that's where I went

Juke:

for a year. Wow. It

Unknown:

was great.

Juke:

Okay, so I think for a lot of people out there finding out that like coding not being like, super required, or like, if you're bad at coding, you can never do this program, that it's not that way, I think that's reassuring for a lot of people,

Unknown:

100%

Juke:

Wow. I

Unknown:

actually met somebody recently who was hoping to do game design, but was so scared to even apply because

Juke:

of that,

Unknown:

because of that. And I was like, No, you got it all wrong. Like, game design and game development is two different things. It is an asset to have both under your belt, but it's not required. Yeah,

Juke:

that's what. And that helps me, because one thing that absent said in his episode on the Witcher, as we were talking about games. And I said something about, oh, the programming. And he said, No, not the programming, the game design. And in my mind, I was like, Well, isn't that the same thing? But you know, I didn't interrupt because we were talking about something else, but I wanted to ask you, but now I'm understanding that, no, I was completely like, associating two different things, because game design doesn't have to be video game.

Unknown:

No, it doesn't.

Juke:

So, so obviously game design and programming is not the same thing.

Unknown:

No, exactly, right, the game design does not limited to game to video games, because there are things such as board games that came before it, and sports. And, you know, it took a game designer to think about the rules,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

before you could even test it. So it doesn't really matter the medium. What matters is that game design focuses on the actual foundation of where everything else will will be founded on.

Juke:

That is so true, you know,

Unknown:

if someone didn't, for example, let's take something that's not a video game or or a board game. We'll take something like a sport, like a sport, like basketball, you know, what did it take for the game designer to be able to realize that it takes a bouncy rubber ball to be able to play the game. If it was any other type of ball, would it still be the same sport, right? So it takes designers to be able to do things like that,

Juke:

yeah, yeah, of course. Oh, that's so cool.

Unknown:

Yeah,

Juke:

okay, so what's it like an average day when you're studying game design,

Unknown:

an average day? I mean, this is maybe like bias, because I've only had one perspective of the school, and you know, it wasn't a three year bachelor's program either. It was, it was a preparation for a master's. So it's very quick. Things get piled up really, really quickly, because you only have about, I mean, less than six months to finish your semester. So things, it's

Juke:

like an intensive. It's

Unknown:

a, yeah, it's very, very intensive. So you got like five, six classes, and everything's due at the same time, and you got like four months to do it, kind of thing. Good luck. So that was it. Apart from that, the kind of classes that we had, you know, it shifted between, like I mentioned earlier, learning how to pitch certain game ideas, how to deconstruct your idea.

Juke:

I love that they learned how to pitch because one thing as an adult, because I worked in. Sales a lot, but growing up and realizing that people are really not good at selling themselves and interviews and stuff like that, and that people actually do need, like, at least learning to sell yourself in an interview is like the minimum of like, learning to sell or to pitch that that people need to learn that they're missing out on that's great,

Unknown:

absolutely. And another thing it taught me is that people, now that I'm in the workforce, is that people don't understand you right off the bat,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

something that's clear to you and your mind is not clear in other people's mind. And that's what this class helped a lot with, is like, Well, how do I take my thoughts, deconstruct it into a PowerPoint and make sure that only the important information is left

Juke:

Yeah?

Unknown:

So that was, that was part of it, right? So, days of that, days of creating stories, days of creating possible, different, possible branches. So much fun.

Juke:

I want to go study that.

Unknown:

Yeah, you should. Everyone should. It's great.

Juke:

Oh, my God, actually, wait, how long is it? How long is the winter? Can I do drink my winter break?

Unknown:

Pretty sure I did it during the winters. Yeah, you could do it, because

Juke:

I have winters

Unknown:

off. Just take it. You could do it

Juke:

in brackets. Oh, my God, okay, one year getting off topic. It just, it's so fascinating. I love, like, story creation for deck. Like, over a decade now, I've been, like, writing a book in my head and on bits of pieces and papers and files that I'm never like, actually sitting down and writing the book and then, and then I got another realization about another book I wanted to write, and I'm like, I have to sit down and fucking do it. You know?

Unknown:

Yeah, it's tough.

Juke:

Yeah,

Unknown:

it's tough. Well, the board game that you might have mentioned actually with Absinthe and we were talking about earlier that I made was initially a novel that I was writing in my teens, and I just kind of kept it going. Never got to finish it. But it all started from, you know, they're all the same place, you know, I was obsessed with this universe. And

Juke:

so do you think of that game? And I know listeners out there, we keep talking about this game when we're not defining it. There subscribe some. There will be an episode about this game, but today is not the day, so stay tuned. But do you think, if ever that game does get picked up and like, you know, people like, really, really vibe with it, it becomes this whole community. Would you write the book? 100% Yeah, 100%

Unknown:

I would definitely finish. I'd refine it as well. You know, because things do change over time, the way we think changes over time. So I mean, it'll take a lot of reflection, a lot of looking back at what it was initially written, what has changed, you know, what kind of seeing

Juke:

how your board game, what became of your board game? Yeah,

Unknown:

but it's really hard to write that much information about something,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

especially when you have to describe things like combat, it's a very, very hard thing to make each combat sound unique, for example, on paper, written word, very, very hard.

Juke:

Absolutely. That's something my that one of the books that I want to write has like, inevitably, in the story, we'll have to have combat because of the type of like, it's more in the fantasy world, and like,

Unknown:

the baseline

Juke:

of it is a certain conflict that created everything, you know. So like, I that's one of the things that stresses me out, because I, even in the like, I love Lord of the Rings. And so many people that love Lord of the Rings, especially the people who, like, I vibed with in Lord of the Rings, one of the things that, like they glorify, let's say, is, is the quality and the amazingness of the battle scenes, the big, huge war scenes. And then I absolutely tune out in most of those. And I love load of the Rings, but those are not my scenes,

Unknown:

right?

Juke:

You know

Unknown:

exactly

Juke:

so. But like, even in that, I tune out. So having to write it is going to be a hell of a time. Yeah.

Unknown:

Like, imagine that. Imagine, you know, having to write for someone like yourself, right? Who tunes out on visually seeing fighting scenes. How do I keep people like that interested during written fighting scenes? And making it fresh and unique and like, jaw dropping every time is one of the hardest things.

Juke:

It's part

Unknown:

of the reason why I kind of put it down,

Juke:

same as what was my procrastination. Is there?

Unknown:

Really tough. It's not easy.

Juke:

Oh, I love this. So like, I like this because I think so many people can relate to writing and making up stories when you're a kid and and so many parents can relate to their kid being so creative when it comes to like, making up little fantasy worlds and stories and and stuff like that, and, and I don't think a lot of them have games design in mind as a potential to i This is so I love this, this. I love this,

Unknown:

sweet I'm glad

Juke:

having studied in game design and now working in game design, how do you how does like your daily tasks compare?

Unknown:

Well, I mean, when it comes to especially working for somebody else, I guess this goes for pretty much any, I guess any task you got to really, first and foremost, be able to separate your biases on what you're. Working with so that you could, you know, still perform the tasks. You know, there will be times where you're not necessarily the most keen or a fanatic of what kind of project you're working on, but I mean, especially when you're starting off, that's something you're going to have to train yourself to be able to do, is let your biases have to be put aside,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

and be able to think, you know, critically about what you're doing, you know, and not emotionally,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

right. It's really, really important. So that's probably, like, that's the biggest day to day struggle, is to be able to, you know, take a take a breather,

Juke:

because it's not, they're not all your choices in the end.

Unknown:

No, no, exactly, exactly, you know. I mean, that's, that's that's the, one of the most important things they taught us, even in school, is that, you know, the game designers, or designers, are the worst critics of their own work.

Juke:

Yeah,

Unknown:

that is a slogan that is, like, should have been written on the school's walls. And it's so true because, like, no one will understand it like you will. But that's not the point. You're not only making games for yourself or the fact that you're making games because you like making games, but you're making games for others.

Juke:

Yeah.

Unknown:

So it's extremely important to take criticism correctly. Don't be biased about being you know, or feeling that you're you know, emotionally attacked, or anything like that. It's really important to have a bit of a shell and be able to also use that information to your advantage, so that you can better the work that you produce.

Juke:

Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah.

Juke:

I feel like I relate to that. Because, I mean, I mean, most people with their jobs end up like my cousin. I want to get my car detailed at JR auto spa. And he, he was giving me my car back, and he kept wiping down here and there. And I was like, bro, it's perfect, like, and he's like, No, but I'm, you know, he's like, perfectionist in his task. And then even me, like, as a landscaper, we're all a lot like many of us, you know, obviously. And then he and then he feels there's going to be lazier people, but like many of us, are going to be perfectionist about wanting it, to finish it. And I had to teach myself to say, because certain decisions are not my decisions, right? I'm just the laborer. I'm not even the team captain, you know? So I just had to keep reminding myself and telling myself, well, it's not my job site.

Unknown:

Just because

Juke:

I'm working on this job site doesn't it's not my job site. So I just that was my thing, of like, reminding myself that, like, Okay, well, these decisions are mine to make. So it's okay, you know,

Unknown:

yeah, absolutely. It's important. It's important you're there to be part of a greater version of yourself. You know, at the end of the day, there's you are hired. Now, this doesn't have to go with like, like, like, private owned companies or things that are independent. I mean, you have complete creative control over that. But when you're working for an industry or a company, you know, it's, it's, it's really important to have that mindset that you are working for something,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

bigger than yourself. And you know, it's, it's important to be able to take criticism correctly and make sure that the product comes out as good as it can be.

Juke:

Yeah, was it like, you know, that community that you found with your at the school that you were at and all that. Do you feel like it continued in working in game design? Does it have that vibe where it feels like everybody's like, banding together?

Unknown:

Yeah, I still, I do see that kind of banding together aspect. I think in any creative field, you're kind of doing that. But I mean, even even though I'm doing mostly game design. At the moment, I not required to do game design in the studio that I'm in. I'm really more of part of an immersive experience studio.

Juke:

So I

Unknown:

don't really touch video games very much, though. I do touch other forms of media that require me to do game design. So designing the experience between the you know, the player and what they're seeing and what they're doing as well.

Juke:

So, but what you said immersive experiences? Yeah? So that expands, like, further than necessarily, yeah,

Unknown:

we, our studio, works with AR. It works with VR. It works with,

Juke:

wait, wait, what's AR

Unknown:

augmented reality,

Juke:

and that's different than VR,

Unknown:

yeah, VR would be virtual reality,

Juke:

just just the goggles,

Unknown:

yeah? Which requires goggles that basically transforms the space you're in, but you stay stagnant,

Juke:

yeah?

Unknown:

Whereas AR adds almost like an overlay,

Juke:

oh, the floor

Unknown:

pads, yeah, to the real world, it's a little bit of different, you know what I mean? So a lot of, a lot of stuff like that, and also large scale projections where you can interact with, you know, walls and stuff like that. So, so that's more what the studio leans towards than games. But I'm still, I

Juke:

mean, it's still game gamified,

Unknown:

yeah, for sure, what was really nice with them is that, you know, they didn't really require a game designer, but they they acknowledge that that's what I wanted to do. Let me come in and let me add that kind of flair to the experiences they're trying to present. So that was kind

Juke:

of nice, yeah. And I mean, like, even though they're not everything you've described, I mean to me, it sounds very much connected still to video games in my mind. But even if someone doesn't consider them video game related, they're still ludic.

Unknown:

Yeah, exactly, yeah, absolutely. And that's why I'm like, I just feel like I fit in, because anything ludic is something I want to

Juke:

work on. Yeah.

Unknown:

So,

Juke:

oh, that's so cool,

Unknown:

yeah.

Juke:

Oh, my God. So let's say I wanted to explain what you were doing, what you do to my mom, or my mom has worked with very techy people, and in very techy company. So let's say my dad, like, how would you explain or, how do you explain it to people who really don't understand?

Unknown:

No, that's, that's, that's a really funny question to ask, because that was exactly the problem that every single parent had with their children studying in interactive media.

Juke:

Yeah. You know,

Unknown:

it was like, Yeah, we do a little bit of everything, you know, what does that mean? Yeah, it's like, you know, a little animation, procedural art, like, what is that? But, I mean, if we're talking for game design, specifically, we, the best way I would describe it is, we build games,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

you know, from

Juke:

storytelling to, like, mechanic, yeah. And if

Unknown:

you want to maybe try to maybe try to explain it to, like, earlier generations. I'm sure everyone picked up a deck of cards before, you know, and you can ask them, you know, like, where do you think the rules of the card games you played came from?

Juke:

Yeah, who came up with Solitaire and all that? Yeah,

Unknown:

exactly right. So where did that come from? Oh, well, it came from maybe some dude or some girl who decided to, you know, make a game as like, Ah, well, that's what I do.

Juke:

Yeah, pretty much. That's

Unknown:

probably the best way to explain it, yeah,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

in simple terms, yeah. So

Juke:

would you consider it more creative career or a more technical career, or both? It

Unknown:

takes a little bit of both,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

yeah. Depends, like we were mentioning earlier, how the narrator of the game changes the game right? The perspective that you're plunging into this world with changes the way we'll see it right or play it. So it is a little bit of both, right? You got to be creative in the sense that your mechanics, that you build, the you know, the technical aspect of the game has to reflect the universe in which the game takes, takes place.

Juke:

Yeah?

Unknown:

So, like, a perfect example would be, like, I don't know if it has to do with a game that revolves around collecting things off the floor, for example. Well, you're going to make sure that, in your in your mechanics, the technical game of it, it has to be in arm's reach,

Juke:

right? Yeah.

Unknown:

But if you're a flying thing, and the game is still collecting, well, you don't want to have the things maybe on the ground anymore, but you want them maybe hovering in the air. So that's where the creative and the technical kind of start to merge,

Juke:

because

Unknown:

it does have to reflect what we're trying to convey as a creative experience, artistic experience, and how we make it feel that way?

Juke:

Yeah, yeah, I can totally see that, because get stupid example. But there's this TV show called New Girl. I know your girlfriend

Unknown:

watched

Juke:

New Girl. There's true American, the drinking game, yeah, of course. And I was obsessed. But true American, the way they filmed it was really just they filmed chaos. There was no actual pre made game in their mind. So they never, whenever people will ask for true American, they're like, it's not, we didn't create a game. We filmed pure chaos with we gave them a directive idea, the floor is lava and this and that and and then we filmed it. And so my friend and I, years ago, over a decade ago, wanted to play true American, and so we tried to create true Canadian, because, you know, we're not going to support the US, and then having to figure out the rules of, how do we make these rules? How do we make it so that we're, like, respecting the fact that that it ties in politics, like the country's politics in the drinking game. Oh, it was so complicated. It ended up being pure chaos, where we tried playing it, and it ended up being mostly the floor is lava and get to a destination, you know. But it was fun and but, but it really made me had, like, I had to get faced with the fact that, like, oh, wait, making a game is way more complicated than I thought, and this was just a drinking game. Yeah,

Unknown:

exactly. Well, it's kind of funny, because it's a great metaphor for politics being chaotic. So yeah, I think they did something, right,

Juke:

yeah. So with that in mind, like, how complicated to me anyways, creating games are. Do you ever because when I'm like, in landscaping, like, if I look at someone's pavement, I'm seeing, like, the mistakes they made and and how how they built it, and stuff like that. Like, I'm seeing, you know, things I know that other people don't know. Like, with many professions. So for you, like, when you play a game, do you have those moments of like, Oh, I know exactly how they made this,

Unknown:

maybe not exactly how they make it. I do see things games kind of like, you know, cinema in a different way because of it, you know, like, how they how they film certain things, or, you know, and like in games, for example, how, why things are specifically done the way it is. I can give an answer, but I would sometimes look at it and be like, well, this could have been maybe done differently. Mm, hmm. And you know, when you that's the biggest issue also with, like, problems in games, is that when you start noticing it, it pulls you out of the experience. Yeah, it's really, it really sucks when that happens. But yeah, I mean, you definitely see the faults and things you kind of see when things are a little bit rushed. But you know, it's a very has become a very, very, very competitive domain right now. That's, yeah, you know, it's really, how fast can you pump out the next best thing, you know. And sometimes quality gets, you know,

Juke:

I guess you're noticing things are more rushed now,

Unknown:

yeah. I mean, it could also be a nostalgia thing, where, you know it's, it's really hard to tell. Because, I mean, if I were to compare games that were, let's say, complete back when, you know, when there was no not this aspect of downloadable content which extends or expands the game, you know, when games were complete and just sold out of the box, they also felt complete.

Juke:

Yeah, they couldn't get patched.

Unknown:

They couldn't get patched, you know, there was not any added, let's say, content to be able to, you know, change the the experience of the player. It was the experience, you know. And I actually took a game design class even before I did game design in Concordia that introduced those, like, like, those early, those, those early like terms and and those types of games, right? And it was the whole aspect of game as a product versus game as a service. And that's, you know, and that's, that's kind of, you know, people actually started analyzing this shift in games, and that there is a significant difference between what a game as a product is and game as a service, right? And maybe at first it was a way to, you know, captivate the attention of people to play over and over again, but have a different experience. So people keep paying for new content. The new content changes the way you play,

Juke:

yeah, and

Unknown:

that keeps going. But by analyzing that kind of behavior, you start to realize, well, hold on, maybe it's the other way around. Maybe people are demanding for more from the game, so they stop making games complete. Send out a new patch or a new content, see people's feedback on it, take that feedback, make something new, send it back out, and then you have this cyclical thing where you're playing the same game, but it's always different because of the content that you acquire.

Juke:

Yeah. And in the end, video games like anything is a business, and business is all about supply and demand, so they also don't have a choice to adapt at certain point, for

Unknown:

sure.

Juke:

But before I forget, we mentioned patches for people out there who don't know what a patch is. It's like an update that they're going to make to the game. Because now most games, you buy them online, and you can play online and stuff like that. So they can just send an update to the platform that you got the game from. And so the next time you want to open the game, it tells you it needs to update. You update it, and you get, like new characters sometimes, or sometimes, the power of a character will change. Like this will affect, it affects so much within a game, the patches that competitions will be timed with upcoming patches and stuff like that to make it fair, because, because it really can impact a lot, and it changes a lot, whereas before, when we were kids, games were physical. You could not change the game once you had it,

Unknown:

that's right.

Juke:

Yeah. So we talked a lot about, like the flaws and how you're noticing, like things are rushed and stuff like that. But is there, like, a game that, like, in your game design brain, that you're like, that is a good game design, I mean, other than your wonderful Yeah,

Unknown:

thank you. I love playing video games. I mean, I'm nothing I'm ever gonna hate video it's been so intertwined with my life that I, I don't, I don't think I'd be the same without them. I think, though the shout outs I have to do what would probably be just Legend of Zelda in general.

Juke:

Oh, yeah,

Unknown:

that and that

Juke:

has a huge community.

Unknown:

Yeah, that was a huge impact on just the way I saw games.

Juke:

Yeah,

Unknown:

and another game that made me a little bit later in my life, and I I hate myself for playing these games so late, but I had the perfect excuse, because I was off of work for a month. I had, I had covid, and I just couldn't leave the bed.

Juke:

Yeah.

Unknown:

So I said, You know what? I'm gonna finally do this. And I played all three Batman Arkham games back to back. And I don't think I've ever had such a nostalgic feeling playing a game before,

Juke:

really,

Unknown:

then those games,

Juke:

I must admit, you must be the first person to talk to me about the Batman video game,

Unknown:

yeah, it's hard not to mention those games. I mean, it's definitely my top 5am. I a DC fan? Absolutely not. Was I a DC fan after the game? Absolutely yes. Yes. 100% it felt like the perfect balance between open world, sus. Events, crime, superhero,

Juke:

wait, Batman, the games were open world games.

Unknown:

Well, I mean, it was more of a sandbox game, but you had access to all of a section of Gotham when you played, and the maps just kept getting bigger and bigger. So yeah, you were able to free roam,

Juke:

wait,

Unknown:

in the world they gave you.

Juke:

So just in case, because I have recorded an episode where, no, I have not yet recorded the episode where I define open world and sandbox, open world has been defined in a few episodes, but sandbox, I want to make that distinction. I have it in my notes. So just to compare properly, a sandbox versus an open world, open world typically refers to like map size and accessibility. Sandbox is going to imply more creation. It refers more to mechanics. That's kind of what I got.

Unknown:

Do you interested? It's hard to really pinpoint exactly what is what I mean I get the the aspect of a sandbox being something that you can mold, right? Because when you're in a sandbox as a kid, you can mold the sand,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

but I mean, where I would put more focus on is that it limits the space of play,

Juke:

the sandbox.

Unknown:

Yeah, the Sandbox

Juke:

is an open world,

Unknown:

right, right? Because I

Juke:

love that.

Unknown:

Because, if not, it would be, why wouldn't be called a beach game?

Juke:

Yeah?

Unknown:

Beach sand game, you know what I mean? No,

Juke:

I like that analogy. It's the box, yes,

Unknown:

yeah. But I mean at the same time, I mean it could be an open girl, my God, open world. My god, I'm sorry, it's been a long day. It could be an open world game. I mean, in my mind, within a sandbox, yeah, you know, because at the end of the day,

Juke:

like Minecraft, Minecraft,

Unknown:

yeah, exactly, exactly. But the game just keeps self generating, you know, and it, you know, it feels like it goes on forever, but at the same time, it is a sandbox game, because you can, you know, mold the things that are in it, where I might have confused the terms for Batman, because you can't exactly mold the world around you, but you have this open space of play where you can, you know, just free roam and walk around and catch criminals and

Juke:

see way more interested in Batman because I watched Like the series, I don't remember on which platform it is, but you get to see Penguin, you get to see the detectives, and I love that series and the idea of a game where I can roam that city and meet certain characters. And from what I remember of like open worlds and stuff like that, you do have more freedom. You're less, like, forced to do this or that that is way more interesting to me, because if you tell me about my video game, my brain, my biases, obviously, immediately gives me like, a generic level based game where a superhero, like, almost like a copycat of Mario Brothers, but with a superhero

Unknown:

instead. Like,

Juke:

that's where my brain goes. I don't know why that my brain went there, but, but it sounds I'm so intrigued now.

Unknown:

It's, it's, it was ahead of its time when it came out. I think the first one came out in, like, don't quote me on this, but I think like, oh 7080, and it was just ahead of its time when it came out. And, like, that was our asylum, which is not exactly my favorite one, but it was a good introduction to the world of Arkham. But then the two other ones started becoming like massive scale Rome free roams. And you get to throughout the narrative, you get to meet all of these great villains that you know we love, and you see them under a different light, comparative, you know, just watching it in a in a film,

Juke:

yeah. Oh, that is fun. Yeah, it's exciting to me.

Unknown:

Incredible game. Honestly, highly recommend. It's, it's the it's the best. And it's always, always on sale for PC gaming. You could get all three games for like, $6

Juke:

really,

Unknown:

yeah,

Juke:

oh, my God, I'm definitely, and I keep saying that people talk to me about games on the show, and I'm like, Oh my God, I want to check it out. But then when I'm home,

Unknown:

I'm never in the mood to game, for sure, but

Juke:

I'm actually, genuinely interested. So if ever I do get the mood to game, I will think about that. So in your journey at this point of like, designing your game, studying and getting design and now working in interactive media, right? Pretty much like, what's like the coolest moment so far? Would it be like that whole banding together that you had at school where everybody was like, supporting you? Or is there like a cooler

Unknown:

there? There is a cool, I love, I love working with people I've always had, have, I've just got out of the restaurant industry for 10 years. So like interacting with clients and be able to create an experience just kind of like has already been trained,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

in me. So that's just. Something I really love to do. However, what I say, it's the the most interesting part, probably the second most interesting part, I think the most interesting part right now is, is the is the liberty to be able to brainstorm something, bring it back to the team, get it review, talk about how it could be changed. Be like, Oh, I didn't think about that. Let me, you know, change that. So it's really the act of being able to have the freedom to do something and present it to someone and then get feedback to make it better.

Juke:

Yeah,

Unknown:

that is, like the most, most fun part of the job.

Juke:

I could totally relate to that. Like, I think one of the harder parts for me in this podcast. Let's say this project of mine is the solo aspect to it, especially when I'm brainstorming episodes, I love brainstorming and bouncing my ideas off people and stuff like that. And then when you're like, sitting alone with your notebook and brainstorming on your own, you're like, Okay. And then you're like, trying to think of like, which friend Am I gonna bother with this one

Unknown:

today? You can't always

Juke:

go to the same person. They're gonna get fed up. They're gonna be like, I'm not on your team.

Unknown:

You know, I don't know you take your coffee and leave.

Juke:

That would so be me. I like talking to the brewery stuff for way too long, and then they're like, you have to go, yeah,

Unknown:

it's 299 please pay and go.

Juke:

I promise I'm not actually like

Getting Gamers:

that.

Unknown:

But, yeah, that's definitely it, and that's probably the, I'd say, the funnest part. I mean, it was just like thinking back a few years ago and being like, you know, my dream job, even though it seems like nothing would be just like being part of a think tank and like thinking of the ideas, bouncing those ideas off somebody else, refine them, put them onto paper and then work on something like as a kid, that's all I ever wanted to do. And I was just like, is that even real, you know? Is that even a thing? You know? How do you can you get paid for just thinking of things? But

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

when you have that, plus the community to be able to critique it and make it better, it starts to become something more than just just action. It's there's something more to it.

Juke:

I love that. I'm happy for you that you found that because, like, it sounds so great. Thank

Unknown:

you.

Juke:

Oh, and for other people out there who want to find something like this, do you, in your opinion, do you think you absolutely need the school to work in game design?

Unknown:

I mean, that's a tough question to answer, right? It's it could go either ways. You can get very lucky or or very unlucky in both circumstances, whether you have the the degree for it or not. It's it's like entering in cinema, you know? And it's probably harder for cinema to get you, to get you to a higher level, and like, You got to be know people,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

for starters, and be able to talk to the right people. That's that's kind of what happened to me. If it wasn't for that, I don't think I'd ever I'd still be working in restaurants today,

Juke:

and the knowing people are meeting the right people was that, because you went

Unknown:

to school, not even, no, not even, I think I might have, the way I did it, I might have gotten the job, even regardless of the fact that I was going to school,

Juke:

okay, through preterra, was it through your game?

Unknown:

No, no, it was through. It was through. Talking to somebody who knew, somebody from this company, and they said, here's the LinkedIn, why don't you give it a shot? And I gave it a shot, and that's it. I mean, I did have the resume to back it up, yeah, you know, I had, you know, interviews with with him as well, and it, it worked out in the end, you know, and then I got an internship, and I was, you know, made sure that I performed so that I'd be able to get this and it wasn't even game design I was doing when I first started as an intern, you know, it was just there to, you know, I guess, test me and prove myself that I was able to do this kind of work and and that's, that's how I got a permanent job. But it, you know, like I said, it could be luck until your foots in the door. You know, when your foot's on the door, it's completely on you at this point. But anything before that, right now is a very hard time to get into the game industry,

Juke:

yeah, yeah. So do you think you need or eventually might go get the masters?

Unknown:

I don't think I will. No, no, I don't think. I don't think so. I think I'd be able to. Once you've

Juke:

got your foot in the door, you feel pretty confident,

Unknown:

yeah, for sure, for sure. And I really don't want more education to take

Juke:

more time

Unknown:

precedence over work,

Juke:

yeah, experience,

Unknown:

yeah, for sure, at

Juke:

this point, I thank you the experience.

Unknown:

Yeah, exactly, exactly, you know. I mean, like everything else you you will learn on the fly. I mean your your visions a little bit more narrow, but I mean it's only as narrow as you make it if you want to learn things, you could always find this information without. Having to pay for it in school. So if you want to broaden those horizons, I mean, that's always a decision you can make, but I wouldn't necessarily go back to school to learn more.

Juke:

All right,

Unknown:

yeah,

Juke:

no, okay, so in that case, like, if someone's trying to go on that path, right? If someone wants to get into the industry, do you have any advice for them

Unknown:

to get in the industry? Yeah, just, you know, keep making games. If it's for yourself, it's for friends, you know, just hone that, that skill. Make sure you're ready to take some criticism as well. And and, you know, and take them, take them with a grain of salt, you know, put yourself out there. Talk to even people you don't know, and let them and let them play your games. But ideally you just want to make something bounce these ideas off people get thrown in the mud, if it doesn't work, and try to make it better.

Juke:

Yeah. And on that note, for the listeners out there, a bit of lore on our friendship. We met because you were making a board,

Unknown:

actually, yeah, yeah. Completely forgot about that. It's true. I thought I feel like I've known you forever,

Juke:

I know, but because now we see each other every week,

Unknown:

yeah, exactly

Juke:

like I come to their place every week, but I heard and like got wind of you Well, I mean, sometimes I'd gatherings because of absence, yeah, here and there. But I started coming to those gatherings more after meeting you at a game test,

Unknown:

yeah, exactly

Juke:

that absence, yeah, invited me to, yeah,

Unknown:

you know, and like, you know, I'm not gonna say that the game became as successful as I wanted, in the in the in the moment, but just meeting you and, you know, making sure that I did it in a public space, right? I decided to, you know, call the boutique the game boutique. Can I reserve these tables to do play tests? I, you know, my apologies if you know, if that means I have to pay a certain fee or something, I know that we're not playing any games that you guys are selling. But I'd love to do this in a public space to accommodate more people and, you know, just kind of show it off. Maybe people that were passive buyers would be like, you know, what is that? And

Juke:

people were people stopped at a table a few times to ask questions and

Unknown:

take

Juke:

pictures and stuff like that, because it was, like, quite impressive the game on the table.

Unknown:

Yeah, the scale of it kind of really helps. It's its attraction that's kind of something I was debating about removing from that game. But I was like, oh, you know what? There's something attractive about like, building your own map and all that and And anyways, just just to put a brief there, just the the fact that I was started doing things in open spaces, you know, just kind of gave me a bit more of that incentive to listen to people's feedback and critiques. And,

Juke:

okay, I'm sorry. Listeners, there's someone like attacking the railing in the stairways next to us. All I hear is the pink bang.

Unknown:

Oh yeah, Uncle Sam, is that you?

Juke:

I'm sorry. I interrupted you.

Unknown:

That's okay.

Juke:

No, it was a really smart move, having it in open space. And another thing that that guy's theory did when they were creating games, is they were building themselves a network too, like they you went to, what are they called conventions, board game conventions, or something like

Unknown:

that. Yes, we did the same kind of concept, not only in a little game boutique, but decided to go one up to one of the biggest board game conventions in North America. Yeah, in Canada, excuse me, called the breakout convention in Toronto,

Juke:

okay,

Unknown:

and I that's where I really put my money's load on, like an exhibitors table. And, you know, we they catered almost 500 people, even more, for three days straight, just other people with board games, bigger companies, smaller companies, and just people that love games and they don't come together. So I did rent an exhibitors table to be able to do that. Now that's when I started a Kickstarter to be able to, you know, try to promote the game, which unfortunately, wasn't successful, but it's a lot harder than it seems. And in doing so, I was, you know, faced with a lot of critique, as much as a lot of, you know, positive feedback,

Juke:

yeah?

Unknown:

And that's, that was the whole point of it, you know, I feel like I made my money's worth regardless. Yeah, doing the convention really kind of gave me a bit more rough skin. And it shows really, how competitive that the how competitive the the, you know, the domain of games really is, because there's a lot of expectations when it comes to what people are looking for in games, right?

Juke:

So what people's, like, snooty,

Unknown:

I don't even know

Juke:

if that's the word, actually, but like, snobby about it. They were, like, they did, like, recognize that you were, like, an independent, small and were like, well, super judgy about it.

Unknown:

Well, I mean, they weren't judging about the fact that I, like, I was super small because, let's face it, I was literally glued between two guys that have, like, mascots, no, come on, perfectly foiled cards and signs, and I was there with a mini projector and, like, like a, like, a white. Tablecloth of both of my games on there.

Juke:

Well,

Unknown:

that's what they said. And I said, I'm I'm cool with

Juke:

it, you

Unknown:

know, I'm cool with it. It might even attract people to my kiosk, because at the end of the day, I'm right, yeah, I'm right next to them, right? So I think the word you were saying, we wanted to say, was snobby. It really depended on who it was. I noticed actually that the game, because I had of so many different kinds of components and stuff, a lot of kids were actually really, really curious about it. A lot of color, a lot of, like, kind of cartoon imagery. And there were a lot of components that you can, you know, you can feel like, kind of like action figures, you know what? I mean. So got kind of good feedback on the actual appearance of it?

Juke:

Yeah,

Unknown:

I had some people also in their 40s and their 50s as well, be like, this is kind of cool, even through a mobile device that is played with the game. You know, there's a lot of collectibles. It was super cool. There's a bunch of things that can happen at the same time. And then on the other spectrum, it was like, Well, I didn't recognize I don't understand what I'm doing. Why did you decide to do it with a mobile app instead of just keeping a traditional board game like it doesn't speak to me. So it, you know, it makes you have a harder skin and makes you think twice about your design. And that's, that's kind of what game design is all about. Because if I wasn't ready to hear that, then I don't think I would have been ready to hear that in a workplace where you're there with professionals, especially where I'm working, I'm working with people that are in their 60s, their 50s, their 40s. There's barely anyone my age. I'm 29 so like you know people with a bunch more experience like it definitely helps me shed like a soft skin, and be able to, like, you know, kind of take the feedback and be able to understand what I could do differently, you know, and also to be able to figure out what the target audience is for certain games, yeah, because

Juke:

not everyone's gonna like your game

Unknown:

exactly, you know, and I don't expect that to happen,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

right,

Juke:

having to accept that. Like, you know, the people who don't like the mobile aspect of your game, well, then the game is not made for them, because it's one of the coolest aspect,

Unknown:

in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, that's I thought so too.

Juke:

Yeah, when I was in school, when I when you when I first heard of your game, and going to play tests and all that, and then when I would talk about it with the guys at school, they were always like, they found it so cool that like, because they have never heard of something like that, you

Unknown:

know. Yeah, exactly, exactly, right. And, but a lot of the critique that I had about the mobile app is, like, I didn't come to a board game convention just to keep looking at a screen. Oh, you know, because I do this at work, you know. So you got to hear these people rant, yeah. And some, some people, and that's kind of where I kind of like, broke my cool at some point, is that some guy was trying to explain that to me, almost angrily and not looking at me in the eye. Go to

Juke:

another table. Yeah, no. So he was

Unknown:

just looking down and, you know, and ranting. Yeah. So I asked him, like, why can't you just tell me that to my face, and he stuttered and left,

Juke:

yeah, well, come on, if you're going to rant like, man up about it,

Unknown:

yeah, I guess so. I mean, you know, there's two sides to that coin, you know, there's one that, oh, okay, well, you know, Vengeance is sweet. But on the other side, was that really something that I should have said when it came to clientele, service, you know, like

Juke:

I

Unknown:

had a certain kind of expectation about me to be there and be able to present and make the entirety of the convention a pleasurable and safe space. And I guess by speaking my mind in a way that was almost, you know, putting somebody down might have been the wrong approach.

Juke:

I mean, I mean yes and no, because I understand the whole like clientele approach, but also like he was not, you know, it wasn't like this guy who was raving about your game and couldn't look you in the eyes, and then you told him, Look me in the eyes, bitch. He was ranting, and he didn't even have the balls to look you in the eyes. And I'm sure you weren't like that rude about it. You don't seem like the rude.

Unknown:

No, I can't, I can't start conflict with exactly, like, it's just not me. So like, when f came out of me, I was like, Was that really the right decision?

Juke:

I think it was because, as a society, we are, for a long time now, have been stepping away from the client is always right. Because the client is always right has created Karen's and society we like as a as a society, we have been pointing that finger a lot, and we have been more and more vocal about the client not being always right and making and we've been vocal about it, and it's been helping bosses understand that they have to protect themselves and that the health and the ambience of the workplace right the restaurants that say we reserve the right to not serve you, and all those places and in that situation that you were reserving the right to not serve that client, you are allowed to protect yourself, even though you're like the boss and not an employee. Everybody's allowed to, like, have some self respect.

Unknown:

Yeah, that's, you know what? That's That's good to hear. I actually even know about those about that. Type of legislation. But, I mean, I guess so, yeah, yeah. It was, it was a bit much, you know. I think that was the one one real time I went overboard, because the next day I had, like, you know, two other players at the table, and they played for about 15 minutes, and both of them just disagreed of how the design worked, you know. And two

Juke:

of them,

Unknown:

yeah, both

Juke:

together,

Unknown:

no, no, it wasn't at the base,

Juke:

disagreed with you, yeah,

Unknown:

exactly. And I was like, well, since you guys are seated like, can you actually just like, give me like notes of of what didn't make sense to you? You know, exactly, perfect

Juke:

situation where their input was valid

Unknown:

exactly,

Juke:

versus that other person

Unknown:

Exactly, exactly. It's really important, you know, I mean, you once again, it will never be a perfect game. No game will be a perfect game,

Juke:

no,

Unknown:

right? Because, you know, you got to first be able to understand how it works for it to even be played, you know. And that's why there's such a class with, you know, older generations and and newer, newer forms of media. Is like the time is not there to learn how, or even the capacity to learn how,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

you know. And that's, that's another thing you know. You got to really know how to and who you're trying to target when you're when you're building a game.

Juke:

Absolutely, yeah. So like living all of this and like your brain and expanding on game design and everything, is there a game that like exists, that you like, would love to work on or redesign.

Unknown:

Never thought of that actually, like a game, like a game that's already exists, or more like a game that's coming, or what

Juke:

game you know of?

Unknown:

Oh, I mean, that's really hard to answer. I mean, like,

Juke:

really, there's not a game that you're like, I would have loved to be on that

Unknown:

team. Oh, okay, like, a game that I played that I would love to create. Oh, okay, honestly, I'd say anything Nintendo, I personally would love, yeah, Nintendo's my life. Honestly, yeah, the whole PC gaming aspect is quite new in my life, because I've always ever owned Nintendo consoles.

Juke:

Oh, so no. PS, no, Xbox,

Unknown:

no, I have a playstation one behind me, but that's the that's like from 1996 it still works. It still works better than most most consoles today.

Juke:

Yeah, me growing up, I think we had PS, three, like my stepbrother now,

Unknown:

yeah, now I got the first generation PlayStation, and it still works perfectly, even when it tells me this game console is broken. Please return it to its manufacturer. All I have to do is click reset, and it still works

Juke:

that, yeah, we definitely don't have

Unknown:

we don't have anymore. But I mean, if it had to do with, like, working on a game, it would probably be anything Nintendo. And if I had to be specific, as much as I think Legend of Zelda is definitely my like, like, pinnacle of the best types of game, I'd say I'd love to work on a Metroid Prime game.

Juke:

Metroid Prime,

Unknown:

absolutely the whole sci fi, first person action. It's puzzle. You're on distant planets, remote planets. You can scan all of the biomes to, like, learn about its lore. You know, find creases on the walls that you didn't know was there and could only get there with certain types of weapons, which gives you access to new secret rooms, and then just learning how old civilizations have lived in those planets, I think that would be like my that would be my go to team and

Juke:

Metro prime is old? No,

Unknown:

the original prime came out in 2001 I believe, or 2002 Yeah, Metroid itself came out a long time before that, but that was made as a like a platformer,

Juke:

okay,

Unknown:

a side scrolling platformer, kind of like Mario, but it's kind of niche as a platformer, which came to be known as Metroidvania games, because Metroid and Castlevania both share very similar mechanics. Therefore the genre Metroidvania came to be

Juke:

I've seen Castlevania. It was not something that interested me.

Unknown:

Yeah, it's, well, it's a different type of

Juke:

it's like piles that you move. No,

Unknown:

I might think about the wrong thing, yeah, maybe Castlevania is, is like this. It's a side scroller game

Juke:

where

Unknown:

you can always come back to the places you were before, and as you progress, you have certain items that allow you to unlock things that you couldn't have done previously. So you're given, like, one big map. It's a side scroller, but you got a big map, and you always have to, like, find a certain item, go back to places you've already visited, to unlock certain doors or access points that you couldn't do beforehand. Now, the difference between Metroid and Castlevania is that Castlevania takes place in the more vampiric fantasy universe, and Metroid is like hardcore sci fi.

Juke:

Okay, yeah, and just quickly, because we said side scroll a few times, and that's a word I've been missing when I've been trying to define things. So I'm just gonna define side scroll. Real quick, because it's pretty straightforward. Everybody knows what scrolling means. Side scroll. When you're thinking about a 2d game, you're often moving from left to right, and the further you move right, the game like automatically scrolls right, so that the map keeps going forward, which is to the right most of the time.

Unknown:

Yeah, there you go.

Juke:

I think that that's pretty

Unknown:

much it. But in the case of Metroidvania style games, you can always go to the left as well,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

just follows you.

Juke:

I've never played a size quarter that you could go back,

Unknown:

yeah, yeah. That's what made it really popular and unique. And that was a bit before my time. So I never really caught the train with with like, earlier Metroid games, but the Metroid Prime series are all first person shooters. You still play a Samus era in there with the kind of like a gun on her hand, and you see everything through her visor, and you basically just do the same kind of concept, but in a 3d space,

Juke:

all right, yeah. Oh, so I would

Unknown:

definitely want to work on a team like that.

Juke:

Well, that sounds awesome. I didn't expect because it is still quite an older game. For 2001 is an older game.

Unknown:

Well, they just released their newest Metroid Prime game this year.

Juke:

Oh,

Unknown:

Metro prime

Juke:

still going?

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah. We've been waiting a long time for four to come out, okay,

Juke:

but

Unknown:

it finally was released this

Juke:

year. Amazing. So before we end this episode, is there, like, anything about game design that you feel like I haven't asked about, that you want people to know, or about your journey that you think people should know?

Unknown:

My God, that's a good question, something that we haven't spoken about for game design, or

Juke:

maybe a misconception people have.

Unknown:

Well, I mean, I think we spoke a little bit about the misconception of it being like, Is it is it creative? Is it technical? And, yeah, I think I would put a bit more weight on that, saying that it's it's really both, and you have to be able to adapt and be flexible with the creative concept of the game before you can propose the technical aspect for something to work. Yeah.

Juke:

Would you call it a welcoming community?

Unknown:

Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. 100% at least where I work

Juke:

and in your school too, from when I'm Oh, yeah.

Unknown:

It was great. It was great. We actually had a lot of students from from France and Switzerland in our classes more than anything else, yeah. I mean, it is a French university, yeah. But we took a lot of a lot of people from abroad and in our classes. And it was, it was awesome because it was also another point of view,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

of how games are made, right? Working with people that were that that came from Monterey, which is where the original Ubisoft, the French Ubisoft is, oh, not the original, it's Montreal, but one in Monterey. And, you know, they are very proud people for especially gamers over there. And game designers are proud people because, you know, they worked on the Assassin's Creed and

Juke:

big

Unknown:

franchises, you like that, you know. So, so it gave a different perspective on games as well, and help people there also think about how making games come to be,

Juke:

all right, yeah, oh, I love that

Unknown:

an open mind. That's, that's the main key.

Juke:

Always, always, I preach an open mind so much on this podcast in my life.

Unknown:

There you go.

Juke:

So like people out there really like if you're looking for yourself, or if you're a parent of a gamer or a partner of a gamer who's like searching for themselves. Think about it, man, if you're at home torturing yourself because you don't know what to do with your life, might as well try out game design. Or you said there was a classic mccordia, maybe try to audit that class before checking out if the program interests you or if that world interests you, and try out making out, try making out games and work on your network. Because that's what I've noticed in guy's theory's experience is working on his network led him to great experiences. So, yeah, so for this week's person that we're plugging, did you have anyone in your life that you wanted to plug? Or yourself,

Unknown:

I would definitely plug. Where I work now, behavior interactive for, you know, giving me that opportunity, that chance,

Juke:

yeah,

Unknown:

something I never thought I'd be able to do, if it wasn't for them, just be able to give me that, you know, that chance to

Juke:

that's so nice,

Unknown:

show myself. So

Juke:

all right, well, let me get their socials. Then we'll plug behavior interactive. So behavior interactive website is b, h, V, r.com, on Facebook, you can find them by searching for behavior interactive or using at behavior, underscore interactive. They have a YouTube channel. Oh, of course, of course. Because Interactive Media, I'm gonna check that out.

Unknown:

They have a lot of fun new trailers coming out for upcoming games. That's gonna be quite awesome. Oh,

Juke:

I'm definitely gonna check out the I didn't even think about checking out their use. Of course, they have a YouTube channel. So that's at behavior interactive, or just behavior interact. Do as well. And finally, for their Instagram that's going to be at behavior underscore interactive. So thank you so much, guys theory, for being on this podcast. Thank

Unknown:

you very much.

Juke:

And listeners out there until next time. GG,

Unknown:

G's,

Juke:

all right. Thank you so much. Our podcast. Art was made by the wonderful Arielle, who can be found on Instagram at profit opossum. And our intro, natural music was made by David thespian from thestian studio.com

Getting Gamers:

job's done.