How to Fire Your Toxic Customers

#66. Firing customers is a necessary part of being a business owner, but how do you identify a toxic client and how do you fire them, if the relationship really cannot be saved? Sevana and Tiffany break down the answers to these questions and more in this episode!

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About BBSB -  We are two business owners with two very different perspectives on building business, and the business behind that in order to achieve your goals. One of us built to sell, and will continue on the serial entrepreneurial path, which means your focus and drive should include very particular tools and tips in order to achieve your goal. The other, is building a generational business, one that can go on long after she’s let go of the wheel. This type of business also requires very specific tools and platforms to achieve this goal. Both women have been successful in their own right, but in honesty - haven’t scratched the surface!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hmm Hi everyone. Thank you for listening to our podcast. Tiffany and I give our all to this podcast with curating information, researching platforms, and creating a show with the best up-to-date information we can. We have a vested interest in your growth and the health of your business, and hope you feel the same way about us. Hey, wouldn't you like to produce a show?

SPEAKER_02 0:25

We have to do that cheesier.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

I know. Wouldn't you like to Okay. All you have to do is email us at the Business Behind Small Business at gmail.com to express your interest, and we will share with you what you'll receive with your investment. You'll have the opportunity to have your name and the name of your business mentioned multiple times during our show. Have your company logo on our social media along with details on how to get in touch with you and other marketing opportunities as well. Please support us so that we can continue supporting you. And welcome to the business behind small business. Whether you're selling or staying or here, we are here to remind you that just because you own a business, hey, don't mean you're a business owner. Uh, I hate to break it to you. We are your hosts, Savannah Stone and Tiffany Kao. She delivers that perfectly. Uh and we're going to get down into the nitty gritty to walk you through the more finite details of entrepreneurship, revealing the dots between startup and success. No one gets to a million without getting a little dirty. There's a lot of business behind small business, so let's get to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Why wouldn't you want to see the video version of this podcast? I know. So for those who are watching us, it's interesting our background keeps we keep changing our position. It's going to keep changing this week.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

I mean, if you're not growing, you're dying, right? So uh we decided to um take the barrier between the two of us, and now we're together.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

We're together. There's no space. There's no space. I could oh well I mean I guess I could you all just are. It just looked like a weird hand coming out of nowhere, just sucking like you from the start. Yes, yes. So we are back together.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah, and so we're maybe we like it. Yes, we we're trying things out. So if you have anything to say about it, good, hopefully. Um email us and let us know. Compliments or complaints. I saw that on the back of a truck and I was like, I like that. Compliments or complaints. Anyway, um, I'd like to think that we have all been there, right? Uh we that one client that gets under that gets under your skin, uh, the one you dread having to talk to. Every time they call you, you can feel your blood pressure rising. Sometimes we have clients that are like that, but you know, they don't mean us any harm. I I know I do, one that just is so frustrating, but really they're more a danger to themselves. Maybe not a danger, that's a big word, but you know, they're more a detriment to themselves than they are to me. But then there are those clients that keep us up at night uh that make us feel unsafe. And ideas of not having them as a client anymore, it might make you feel amazing, but you're also unsure aren't sure if you can do that without them burning your business to the ground. Uh, we're going to cross over to the dark side of having clients, recognizing those that are good, those that are toxic, and how to get rid of them and to keep your reputation intact.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Let's talk about the F-word. Let's do the F word. Yes. It's not Elon Musk's F-word.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Nope. Uh, but before we begin, the F-word, uh, please note our disclaimer. The this is available in both our show notes and on our website and should be referred to before and or after our podcast.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

So let's talk about identifying the toxic clients because hey, you're not gonna know you have a problem until you you know you have a problem. So we're gonna go through different types of clients that are toxic and probably ones you would like to apply the F-word to one day. So uh number one, unrealistic clients. Okay, these are ones that are uh I wanted everything as of yesterday, last week, maybe a year ago, and they really don't care what you need to do to get it done. And in fact, they're impatient, and even though they're probably the ones that created the problem, they still think it's your fault for not getting it done fast enough. Isn't that great? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gotta love these guys.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yes. Or they just think that what you do is so much easier. So why is it so why are you making it so difficult?

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yes. Even though they don't do it themselves and don't know how to do it, they assume that they know how to do your job and at twice the pace.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

That's why I always use figure skaters as a uh uh I guess of a euphemism. Like if figure skating really was that easy, all of us would be able to do it. But it sure looks easy. They their their job is to do it so excellently that it looks easy, but is actually very difficult.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

So before we get to the F-word, you know, we always like to try to remedy the situation, right? Like the best remedy would be like don't don't hire, don't, don't work with them in the first place, right? But you never know what you're doing. Sometimes you don't know. It is it is like a box of chocolates with some clients. Um, or maybe you're working with somebody and then somebody in a company changes and now you're working with somebody different. So great, and now it's gone to all crappers. Yep. You never know, right? So let's talk about how you could remedy this. So if you do have a client who is very unrealistic, just be ready. The fact that you would have to explain your expectations and repeat it multiple times over to reinforce the fact that um it is gonna take as long as it's gonna take.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

So take a pipe down. Sit down. Kidding, kidding, kidding, but not kidding. Kind of kidding, right? But the idea is that you'll have to repeat yourself over and over again because it is in their nature to be urgent, to need, to be anxious, to have agitation. So just know that, be prepared that this is what you're gonna deal with. And just say it over and over again. Um maybe one day you will get through, but at least you'll kind of keep them, keep them at um, keep them a little calm while you're trying to get through the work you're trying to get through. And once you you get through it, typically they're okay, they will back off. But do know that usually if that's their personality, well, that's their personality. It's gonna be like that for the next day.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Okay, so then let's talk about the invisible client. I love this one.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

I know. The opposite of the other one.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Yes, the other one might be a little too communicative, as in like they want to make themselves heard, so they're super loud and super angry all the time. The invisible client just kind of creeps away.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

You know, like you got this, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

And then they ghost you, right? Essentially just absolutely ghost you, which means like you email them, you get nothing, you call them, you get nothing, you you know, you try to text them, you get nothing. They basically just disappear on you. And that's really tough, especially if there are parts to what you do where you need their input or you need their decision making, and they're just poof, gone.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Yeah, yeah. And but they'll resurface kind of like guacamo, randomly out of nowhere. They will come back up again. Um, and then you know, kind of get synced into what you're doing with them, but then poof, they will go away again. So, yeah, that's a little elusive. But it's also problematic because again, if you're you if they're the bottleneck to what you're trying to deliver, this becomes an issue because you can't deliver if you're missing pieces of information or decision making. So, to fix this, um, you can try to get to understand what is the best form of communication with them when you start. So, onboarding, you have this lovely grace period. It's like a grace period about a month where you can kind of figure things out with a client and try to get to know them and also you know make a couple whoopsies and everything's okay because you're just trying to figure it all out with each other. During this time, it's great to ask them, you know, what is it that you like, you know, do you want me to text you? Is that better? Would you rather me call you? Is there a certain time that you'll respond faster or just respond at all? Uh get those all details down so that they, you know, you you you're finding the best way to reach them, even though they're already going to be hard to get. Um also give them deadlines so that they know that, hey, you need something from them by a certain time so that you can continue to follow through with what you need to do with them. Um sometimes it takes a little inspiration. Maybe you can kind of dangle the end result in front of them because then they'll want to pay more attention and kind of you know put their focus on you. Um and then try to make decision making a little easier for them. A lot of times, these clients who disappear is because they're inundated with a whole bunch of other things. Yeah, they're overwhelmed. They're overwhelmed. They probably have a whole bunch of other decisions they need to make and haven't made yet, and it's just too much. And you know, it's not malicious by any means, it's just unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, but that's that's a word unfortunate. No, it is, it's unfortunate. And sometimes they'll have someone who is there, like the robin to their Batman in the office.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

So hope they do.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

You hope they do, because oftentimes if they're invisible with you, they're invisible with everybody. And there's generally somebody in the background, an administrator, a manager, uh, you know, somebody like holding it all together. Yeah. So make sure you get that person's uh contact information because nine times out of ten, if you're unable to get a hold of the actual decision maker, maybe you could like poke the person that is in charge of that person to, hey, can you give them a call? Because I can't get a hold of them kind of thing. That's very true.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Somebody can get a hold of them, right? Obviously, if the build if the building's still standing and the business is still going, somebody knows a way to get a hold of them. It's just a matter of being able to grab their attention long enough to get what you need. Um, the other thing is I would like to say is um to make the decision making a little bit easier, sometimes, like, you know, instead of giving an open-ended what do we do next, maybe give them options. Here you know, here we, you know, curated three options for you. Pick one. And that's usually a lot easier and less overwhelming than having just kind of a blank slate that they need to actually fill in the answers for.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Okay, so the entitled client, I'm sure you've never met any of these.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

All of them.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

So the entitled client. So the entitled client is the one that likes to take more time, uh, more of your time, than he or she is worth. Uh, meaning the amount of time you probably feel like you need to dedicate to this project or to whatever it is with this client. They just like to monopolize more time for themselves. And um free time. Free time. Yeah, that's true, not paid time either. And um they, how would you say, they want to feel like and they demand and they approach your relationship like you are their only client. So you're doing nothing otherwise. If you're not in touch with them, you're just twiddling. Nice. So you just should be there for every phone call, obviously, when they call, because you're doing nothing else in the life. Yep. Um, and you should be able to jump on anything they need at any time that they need.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Yep. And there's always the well, if you could just do this one little thing, oh, can I add just the one little one little bit? And those one little bit start to add up, and then they're like, Well, why are you charging me? All I asked for was this one little thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

That's like, well, that one little bit's called a slippery slope.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Yeah, absolutely. Or if you answer them on a Saturday, Sunday, or at night, then or scope creep, I think that's the other word.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Scope creep into your contract or your promise delivery of service or whatever it is that you're selling them. So a lot of scope creep in that sense. So, with that said, usually the fix to this is that you know, to remind them that they're going beyond the scope of the work that you originally promised for. And you need to do this early, especially if they are already asking for it up front. Don't don't train them to think it's okay to ask for these things because you want it to be nice and you did it the first couple of times. Look, like your scope, your agreement is your agreement. This is what you're gonna do. You're not gonna go outside of it unless there's, you know, additional um consideration, meaning more money, probably involved of some sort, or something like that that needs to be negotiated, but it is outside of what you agreed upon, and you just need to remind them that because sometimes people forget.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Like you're not buddies, even though that's how they're treating you, like you're you guys are buddies.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Well, they're treating you that way, so you can say yes to the additional request that they're asking for. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

They are being so kind to you so nice. Yeah, so why can't you do this for me? And and the entitlement comes from this um idea in their mind that they're special to you. Uh, but in the end, I mean, if they're not your mama, then they don't get anything.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

And to be quite honest, like good clients, like really good clients, will actually self-admit that they know they're asking you for something outside of your scope and they're willing to pay more. They'll actually just offer that. They're like, hey, we can I mean, I do it too, right? It'd be like, oh, I know this is completely outside the scope. We discussed, I really need this, I feel like you can do this really well, more than happy to pay you extra. Let me know what that is.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

So that's what that's what a good client sounds like. They don't ask for free shit. Yes, exactly. All right. So then let's talk about the disorganized clients. Oh, heavens. Um description. For the life of them, can't make it from point A to point B.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Just can't. Even if it is a straight line. I know. I know.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

It's like, God bless you, man. I don't know what to say.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Oh my gosh. Um, they're drowning in responsibilities, they're completely overwhelmed, but cannot let go to save their lives. Even though they're not going to be able to do it. Just like they just can't. Like, not as well as I can. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

So or they just can't understand how you could take that thing away from them. Or like how you could do it better than them.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

They just can't see it.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Yeah. Even though you're the expert and you've been doing this for years. There's no way that you could do it as good as they can.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

So letting go is definitely an issue there. And so ultimately they can't get out get out of their own way, right? Because they're mounted with so much responsibility and so much overwhelm, but they're not there's no release valve anywhere. They're not letting any of it go. It just continues to pile on, which leads to the disorganization, which means it's kind of a headache for you. Again, if you need the client for certain key pieces of what you're doing, it is a real headache when they're disorganized and they can't get it together to be able to actually help you deliver what you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

I mean, especially if you've got other people underneath you, let's say if you're uh an architect or you're a land developer, or you know, I don't know, something like that, like where where there's other people involved, and your client can't seem to get their shit together uh fast enough for you to be able to tell your subcontractors what to do. It's a problem. And you're losing money, you're losing time, you're, you know, it just turns into this butterfly effect that the client sometimes isn't even aware of or or doesn't realize how big it can be.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

And this is really important too, especially if you're in like on some kind of fixed cost, fixed price type of like delivery work, right? Because the longer it takes, the you know, kind of less effective your pricing is. And you you don't want that because you want to be able to move on to the next project as soon as possible. So um these are the ones where their your emails constantly get lost.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

All the time. They don't they don't get it, they don't get your text, they don't get your voicemail, even though you repeat yourself. Like things just are just you know in disarray. And so, I mean, to fix this, what would you suggest?

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Oh gosh. Uh to fix this, I would say that um you you're gonna have to be proactive. You'll have to know that a majority of decision making is going to be on you. Uh you may not so you have to be extra organized. Yeah, you have you yourself have to be extra organized. And I would also take it further in that anytime you have communication with this person that you keep very good notes. Keep very good notes, keep track of everything that you guys say to each other.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Um, if you That's also helpful because I feel like these type of clients also like go off on tangents when they're in a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

So you just kind of go all over the place. That happens, and you can be like, you know what? In this text, it said that you wanted this, not that. So I'm just going off of what the last thing is that you said. Um again, I'm gonna use I'm gonna use a subcont uh a contractor again. Like if if your person is disorganized and they're like, well, those aren't the floors that I said yes to, you can be like, actually, here's the text. It yes, you did. So, you know, you you have to realize that a lot of it is on you. Um, everything that this client does is disorganized. So you it's kind of hard to say this from the beginning because you can't really know whether or not a client is disorganized when you first meet them. I mean, you can and you can't. If you have some idea that this catch- I'm trying to think like what would be like the red flags. I feel like the red flags are when the person says things like, Um, I know, I know uh I was supposed to do this, but I ran out of time. I used to do this, but I just got way too busy. Or, oh yeah, I forgot about that. Um, those are, I think, indicators of a person who's gonna be disorganized. Um, and I hate to say it, but if you do like a Zoom or a Google meet and you can see their background and they they're just sitting there.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, their office typically will reflect kind of their work style, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yes. So that can be an indicator to you. And if it is, uh if you already know all of the things you're going to need from this client throughout your relationship with them, I would say try and get all of it in that first phone call that you have as an onboarding call. Um, the phone numbers to everybody, the names of everyone that you're going to have to deal with.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yeah, try to set yourself up to be as self-sustaining as possible. So you're independent from them, right? Yep. I was thinking like, you know, typically they can't really hide their personality. It is what it is, but like, you know, when you're doing the um the sales call and all that stuff, prospecting call with them, like it'll be like they'll they'll have the same same triggers, right? Like they'll still be talking about a whole bunch of things and going off on tangents, and they're probably gonna lose your contract a few times before they sign it. Yes. Yeah, you know, little things like that, that which is fine, doesn't make them like an overall bad client, but you just need to prepare that this might be a little bit more difficult for you to work with, and I would adjust accordingly.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Oh, the next one's your favorite, the boss client. You know, you love it when somebody wants to be the boss of you. That's exactly what you got in a business to have. Absolutely. So, especially in the services industry, and I think even in any kind of like even if it's not professional services or service-based industry, I think you often run into people who feel like they can be the boss of you, right? They're entitled to be the boss of you. They treat you like you're an employee of theirs. Like they don't understand the mutual respect because they feel like since they're paying you, that's what gives them the upper hand in the relationship, which is just annoying. Um, they override your recommendations, they kind of bulldoze through what you're saying in your work. Because again, of course, they know better than you. So come on. And then they keep they keep pushing you. Like so because of the lack of respect, you know, they'll push like what you say, what you recommend, and kind of push you to do things because they're making decisions out of their perspective and not taking into account your recommendations as an expert, which just is annoying after a while. It's just frustrating. So then, like, you know, typical things you'll hear from these kind of clients is that look, I won't sign the agreement until you change X, Y, and Z. That's my first red flag. If you try to change my agreement, see you later. Yeah. There's a reason why my lawyer wrote it the way they wrote it. So I don't think so. Um, you like they must approve the services before you accepting your invoice, um, especially if it's an ongoing service. It's kind of strange to have to approve it every single time. And then funny enough, I think that also goes hand in hand with also the you know, surprise delay payment that you now have because they they haven't approved it, right? Um and other things you might hear is, you know, I expect you to work on my time, and I can't accept your services if you don't answer me when I need you. Yeah, that that just that's just F-word over it for me. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

I had a client that didn't significantly. What?

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Okay, I had a feeling this came from some kind of personal, yeah, personal experience there. Did it? Did it? Okay. We're gonna hear about those later on. Sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Yeah. Because I mean I have so many like raw truths, but I'm not going to I'll use that one as my raw truth because that was definitely a special kind of person.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

So um other warning signs for this type of client who your boss client is they email you all times of the day and they actually respect a response, which you know, like right away or outside of business hours, or something that they feel like is um reasonable to them.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Which I'll say that sometimes people like I do it too, where I'll say, Hey, I know, I know it's late, but I didn't want to forget to say this tomorrow. We can talk about this tomorrow, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or or something along those lines. Like, you don't have to respond to me right now. I just wanted to say it so I don't forget it. You know, if if the client is saying something like that, they are being respectful to you, but they just so happen to only be able to work at 3 a.m., maybe. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 21:50

And that's fine, but they don't expect a response.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

But they don't expect a response. These are people who are like, respond to me immediately.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

And then they do a follow-up two hours later. Or like why you. Respond to me.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

They email you at 8 or 9 p.m. at night and they're like, oh, I expect an email at 8 a.m. the next morning because you're you're working, right? And you know, I don't you have nothing else to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Right. So that and that that does happen. I'm sure our listeners have have experienced that.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Oh, definitely, definitely. Um, and then um, so let's talk about a few ways that you can kind of write this, write this, you know, track if if you so wish to. Um, if they do email you nights and weekends and they do demand quick responses, this should be something that you want to express to them up front, kind of what your communication guidelines are, meaning what are your open hours, when are you going to respond, what's your turnaround time, and make sure that you repeat that and make that very clear to them so that um so that they know what to expect. They're not making up rules on their own. Um and hopefully that'll kind of save the situation in the future. And then also make it clear as to like what how you work and what your process is, and don't waver just because they yell at you. I'm more they push you, right? Or like you kind of feel like you feel feel like a need to kind of please them, please kind of more of their very um aggressive kind of like personality.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

I frankly feel like you should have it in your um, maybe have it in your engagement letter, maybe have it in your um like your partnership, whatever it is, like put it, put it somewhere where they they know. I actually have it in my signature that our hours are between this time and this time on this day to this day, and we generally respond within 24 hours. Yeah. So that, and it was actually because of that person. See, lesson learned. Yep. Yeah, but you know, it you have to make it very clear to them at which time at what times you are available. You've got to make those lines very clear because it's also a good practice to have, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:46

To set the expectation because everybody's a little bit different. So okay, so let's talk about the uh unreasonable client. So this is the one that never sees value in your work and will nickel dime you at every chance. And then um won't pay or delay payment or basically express how unhappy they are with your work at all times, no matter what you do, no matter what you say, no matter how you set it up, they're just unhappy. Maybe they're just unhappy folks to begin with, but this is where the unreasonableness kind of comes in to the equation. Um if you do run up against clients like this, um, really it's just you you gotta hold your ground, right? Like, you know, if you've already had clear communication, which again is just the best practice, like clearly communicate the expectations. If you've done that and they're still pushing back, then you just need to stay on your ground and say, look, this is this is my service, this is how we do it, right? Like, this is just the way it is. I'm not gonna bend the rules for you. I mean, obviously don't say in those exact words, but that's the idea is kind of stand behind, you know, what's your processes and how you approach the work that you do. All right. Oh, indecisive ones. So, okay, last but not least, we're gonna talk about the indecisive client. So um, these are probably the nicest people you'll ever meet, too. Most of the time they're super, super nice, but they cannot make a final decision for whatever reason to save their life about something.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

So this is when I say like sometimes you get clients that are so frustrating, but they're really a detriment to themselves. Yeah. They're only harmful to themselves. They really are. And an indecisive client, I think, is is one of those people where it's like, oh, I make a decision, so we can move on with this.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Yeah. Yeah. That's more of a that that's more of a frustration frustrating point. They're not, you know, they're not like uh they're not entitled, they're not boss-like, they're not aggressive, they're not any of that. They're just not able to make a decision. And I think part of that comes back to being overwhelmed or whatever the case may be. And sometimes it's just that's just the way they roll, right? Like they're just indecisive and they want other people to make some decisions for them when there's nobody else to make it for them.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

So, I mean, again, this goes back to, you know, if you want if you run to this type of client and you don't quite want to fire them, you know, the idea is, you know, be crystal clear in your communication, right? And offer them options again, right? Sometimes the indecision comes from the overwhelm and not knowing and afraid of making a mistake. And so if that is the motivation behind indecisiveness, then you know, make it easier for them. Show them the pros and cons of each of the options so that you can help them really get comfortable with making a decision.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah. Yeah, like you could say, um, what will why don't we choose between A and B? And okay, do you want A and B? No. Do you want C or D? Yes. Which one do you want? Like, you know, those um, if you say yes, go this way, if you say no, go that way, you might have to do that with them, which I have found to be pretty effective with my indecisive clients. Like I I enjoy working with them, but you know, when it comes time to make a decision about something, that's kind of what I have to do. Give them no more than two choices at a time, and then you know, work your way from there.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Well, yeah, I mean, um, a lot of times it's also not having enough information. So if you're there to help them, then help them all the way, which is help them make a decision. So okay, so now we've talked about how to identify what kind of client you have. And let's say that our listeners are sitting there going, uh yeah, okay, I know so-and-so who is exactly like this. Now, should I what should I do next?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

So before we get into the F-word, which is fire, your client, why don't we go a little bit into good clients? Let's let's cleanse our palates a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

That's true. I mean you can identify the bad, you can identify the good, then you know where you're kind of studying. Yes. So and the idea is you want to attract the good clients and work with them from the start and avoid the bad ones. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

So um a good client is going to have realistic expectations. They're going to know that if there's a project that would normally take about two months, let's say, to complete, that they should give themselves an extra month to make up for any whoopsies or, you know, any anything else. Um they've done this before, they're not always, but sometimes it's that they've done this before, they have a pretty good idea of how long this is going to take. So, you know, whatever it is that you need, they'll help you out with. Um, they also understand the value of the service that you provide. They recognize that what you do is a mastery of the art of whatever field you're in. And they recognize and respect that, which is huge, especially when it comes to products. When, for example, you're selling a product that you make, um, I think handmade products oftentimes do not get the respect that they deserve because there's a lot of time that goes into making these things. And so when you look at something that's handmade and you're like, why is that 50 bucks? You're like, well, I mean, it there's a lot of craftsmanship that goes behind it. It wasn't made in a factory. So they understand the value of the service or the products. And then um, moving from that, they're open to ideas. So if there's something that you're creating for a client, um, as opposed to them saying, either you're creating or maybe maybe you're a hairdresser or something where where there's a change for the client, maybe marketing or what have you. They respect your vision and also want to hear what your ideas are. They're open to whatever, you know. Like me, when I go to the hairdresser, I'm like, what's the newest type of cut that you've read about? You want to try it on me? I mean, with my curly hair, you can't mess it up. So, but you know, but that's the kind of thing. Like, uh, you know what? I want to hear what you have to say. What is what kind of ideas do you have? Maybe, maybe your ideas are better than what I I only know what I know. Maybe you've you're better, you have better ideas. Um, they respect your time. Excuse me, they recognize that your time is money and they do your their best to not waste it. Right. They're trying their best to not take up too much of it. Um, also, they respect that if you are, for example, charging them an hourly rate, and let's say it took you a lot of hours to do something, they're not looking at you like, why would this take so long? And you know, they recognize that maybe I can speak for myself. Like if you're doing books and they're they're like, Oh, I recognize it because it was a mess, and I I can see why it would have taken you so much time. Um, I've had those kinds of clients where they're like, Yeah, yeah, I can I understand it it was a mess. Um, they'll also take your business seriously. Yes. Again, this kind of thing they take you seriously. They take you seriously, but they also take your staff, yeah. They take your business seriously. And uh on the at uh uh other side of that is that they take their own business seriously. That is true. So they recognize that you are a business owner, but that they are a business owner too. They're responsible for themselves, accountable, accountable for themselves. That's another thing that that's a problem. They're like rainbow unicorns, these ones. Well, um they really are, they're so hard to find.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Well, I think that's actually a nice, like a good theme to like peg for all of these like types of toxic clients. If there's a running theme, is they don't hold themselves accountable to any of it, right? And that's why they blame you. Or they blame their staff, right? It's always somebody else. It's their staff, it's their vendors, it's their suppliers, it's you. Like it's never them. And that's why, that's why they're in a pickle they're in.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Yes, absolutely. Um, and then the last thing to me is that you both genuinely like each other. That helps. It does help. You don't have to like the person that you work with at all times, depending on what kind of uh work you do, product or service. But if you do genuinely like each other, it certainly makes it easier. You look forward, you look forward to hearing from this person. All right.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Are we getting to the F-word?

SPEAKER_01 31:56

We're getting close. We're getting close. Okay. So um I would say that if uh you are not driving and you are just listening to us, you're not driving, you're not walking, um, or if you are driving or walking or in motion, um, wait until you are not in motion to do this exercise, but take out a pen and paper.

unknown 32:16

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Running, biking, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

They'll take out any of those things. Don't take out a pen and paper then. Um, but write down all the clients that make you happy, that make you feel good. What was the name of that interior design? The the oh god, what was her name? I can't think of her name. The woman that that cleans places up. Marie Kondo? That's it.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, Marie Kondo, it. Okay. Think about all the people that make you happy, that make you feel good. Write them all down. And then on the other side of the paper, write down all the clients that don't make you happy. All the clients that make you feel sad.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

I believe she says that brings you joy.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Yeah, it's true. The ones that bring you joy. Think about if there are any clients that literally make you feel nervous or agitated or just keep you up at night. Ultimately not feeling well. Um, these are the ones that we're going to talk about. You want to fire them.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Assuming you can't fix them and assuming you don't want to fix the situation, then let's talk about the F-word, which is let's fire them. Right. But how do we do that?

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Okay, first things first, you have to do an internal checklist. You have to conduct an internal checklist because you can't just fire a client, right? Firstly, you have to check your ego. Is the way in which they are working with you um attacking your ego? Is this an ego move? You need to be honest with yourself. Because if it's an ego move, it's it's a you thing, not a them thing. Yeah. Um, then is it ethical? Excuse me. Will firing this client hurt your reputation? Uh also in the way in which you plan to fire them, is it going to hurt your reputation? Like, are you gonna fire them when you're uh I'm gonna go to construction again after you've just like, I don't know, completely stripped their walls and you're like, that's it, I fire you, and like walk away. That's not right. You can't do that to them. Uh like Christmas Eve or something like that. I don't know. Um, but regardless, just make sure that it's it's ethical. Um, are you in and ethical also goes to the next thing, which is will you be in breach of contract? Yes. That is very, very important. Probably the most important. Um, make sure that you uh revise or not revise, review your contract with them. It could be that you signed a con their contract. Um you need to look at that to make sure that you're not um it there are no deliverable expectations that you haven't delivered before you fire them because you don't want them coming back to sue you. Um also do you speaking of which, do you owe them work? Maybe it's not a contractual thing. However, maybe they've uh given you a down payment towards something that you need to finish that of which they have paid for or offer them a refund.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

That's very true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Um, if you don't offer refunds, then you do need to finish that.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

It needs to be clear cut. It needs to be clean cut too.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Yes. Um, and then of course, uh, did you try to fix the issue? If you didn't try to fix the issue, you certainly can't fire them in good conscience, but also it's not it's just not good business. You have to be able to say that I tried all of these things, it didn't work. Maybe we're not the right fit for you. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

See, there's got to be some kind of remedy. And plus the other side also needs the feedback. You know, it's nobody likes to just be like cut off all of a sudden with no rhyme or reason and no chance to redeem themselves because sometimes maybe they don't know they're being overbeared. Absolutely. They don't know that they're being one of these toxic clients, and a a frank conversation between yourself and them could clear up the air.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Absolutely. Um, it's just one of those adult things that you're gonna have to do. Uh communication. Yeah. All right, so let's say that you've done all of these things and you are in the clear to fire them. First things first, you have to give them a heads up. Be as kind as you can. Again, maybe it's not it's not me, it's you. No, but say, you know, maybe we're just not the right fit for you. I think I've come to the conclusion that we're just not able to deliver to you what it is that you expect. Uh, perhaps we're not the right fit for you. Uh so you know, you can either um send them an email or you can give them a call or whatever it is, perhaps even give them a call and send them an email so that you have record of it.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

I would actually give them a call, then send them an email. Yeah, to have it in writing and also if you want to deliver this type of news, it's never good to do it through email. No. Don't definitely don't do it through text.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Absolutely not. It's like breaking up. I mean, think about it that way. It's like breaking up. You need to be a grown-up and call though. Yes. Give them a call. But again, make sure that you have it in an email, but also in that email, maybe say, okay, um, based on our conversation, we've decided to um offboard you as a client. This is what these are the steps that that we take when we offboard a client. Yeah uh we return your items, we return your access, blah blah blah. All of the things, just so that they're aware of what the steps are. It's not just a goodbye because really what you just did was uh cut the cord on and they're just floating around, like, what do I do now? Don't ghost them. Yeah, don't do that to them. And it's also, I think, a good uh respectable thing to do to say, well, of course, first talk to the person that you're gonna refer this client to uh to make sure that they're okay with getting uh referred to. Uh, but then you can say, and um, I I would like to give you a few referrals.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah, find them alternative.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Of perhaps others that could be a better fit for you. If you're finding them alternatives, then you're creating the problem that you just created by firing them is also could be resolved by your offering them referrals.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

That's very true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

And so in that way, you keep your reputation intact. Hopefully, they uh when they talk about you in your company, they say, you know what, things didn't work out with us, but I really enjoyed um how they offboarded my company and and sent me to somebody else. In the end, you don't want them to badmouth you because regardless of whether or not your business is a word of mouth, it very easily can turn into word of mouth.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Well, how you treat them offboarding is just as important as how you treat them when you're bringing them on, right? And I think a lot of companies miss the step all the time because they're like, oh, well, this client's never coming back, like who cares? I'm gonna go spend my time on you know paying clients who are gonna continue to pay me in the future. But then you don't know. It's a very small world. It's much smaller than you think. It's much smaller than you think. And to also treat their business with dignity and respect, right? Like for whatever whatever reason I got you here, maybe it is their fault, right? But still, they have a running business, it is their livelihood. They may have employees who have livelihoods that depend on that business. You can't treat that with disrespect and think that that's not gonna come back around to you.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Right. If you're a supplier of some sort, or you know, uh if you're if there's some product that you uh provide to them, you know, you never know. You never really know what else that person might be going through. So, you know, just be a good human. Yeah, just be a good human and like that. Yeah, we'll end on that. Yeah, okay. Anyway, so um we are before we move on to the raw truth, we want you to be a part of our conversation and let us know what you want to hear. We're cool. Don't you want to be don't you want to be with us?

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Well, we'll we'll get cooler. We're gonna cool. This the stuff is gonna change.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yes, yes, it is. Send us questions or comments to our email, the businessbehind small business at gmail.com, to ask questions related to our show and just to let us know how much you love us. Um, we want to give you what you want to learn about. So uh we'd we'd love to field questions from you or comments and and well, we'll be giving you a shout out. Okay, so now we're gonna move on to the raw truth, uh, where we're each going to share a gritty experience with today's topic. We want the listeners to know that success isn't easy, uh, and it's certainly not a straight line.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Uh we hope we will you will hear our cautionary tales and learn from them.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Am I going first? Or do you have too many examples too? I mean, I've had every one of those. Uh you know, I think I met quite a few of those when I was first starting because I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to cherry pick my clients. And I think a lot of people go through that when you first start because you don't, you're so you so want that revenue, you so want that business that you you do end up compromising your own standards, and then you take anybody, and then you live the nightmare of having to go through a relationship with one of these clients. But I'll tell you about like um a client that actually was an amazing client, like one of our best clients, and then they changed jobs and left the company. Oh no. Like, no, and then the uh the the uh the team that replaced them was uh a nightmare. Was a nightmare. As in like probably embodied the boss client, embodied the unreasonable client, um, embodied, I want to say disorganized, but um, you know, despite the numerous times that we've gone over what the scope is, they still felt entitled to ask for whatever it is they want, whenever they want. And they treated my staff like they were their staff. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is not how this works. And so it was actually really tough because they were one of our largest clients, too. So we had a hefty amount of revenue with them. And it was, it was, it was difficult to see because my staff wasn't happy, because my staff did not like being treated by by the client the way they were treated. You know, there was a lot of CYII going on. If you know, does anybody know what that means? CYI, CYI, cover your ass activities going on. Um CYA. CYA. CYA, CYA. That's what I was like, what a CY. I don't know, actually. For your internal CYA. CYA. There was a lot of CYA going on where our staff felt like they had to save emails and save text messages and save IMs to basically go back to them when they decide to change their mind.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

CYA, sorry, save your ads, not cover your ex.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Oh, cover the CY, yeah. Like when the client decided to change their mind. And then the worst part is they would blame you for screwing up, even though you were like, well, I have this email right here that said you wanted this and we delivered, and then now you're blaming us for not delivering because then you changed your mind without telling us. And so so much of that happened that I think it went on for like six months until eventually, you know, we mutually decided to part ways, which meant I called up their boss and was kind of like, this is not gonna work. Like, yeah, you're drive, like, you're driving my staff crazy. We can't keep it.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

And I don't want to lose my people.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah. And I was like, at the end of the day, my staff is a lot more important than this one client that's here, even though it's I will find another revenue source, but this is this is just insane. And um, yeah, so that's that's what happened. And then I had another client who was really rude in emails, not rude in person, and not rude when you're on a phone with them, and not rude on video calls or like just like um face to face, but just really rude by email. It's weird. It's almost like they they can't take out their anger, I guess, or say what they really feel unless they're typing it out.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

I think it's also a form of passive aggressiveness, to be quite honest, right? And so he would send like these emails that were just rude. And at one time he said something where I was kind of like, okay. That's this. Then I called him and I was like, you cannot send this through an email. You either apologize or you can say bye-bye tomorrow because we're done. Like you're not allowed to talk to my staff this way. But that was like a weird personality case, I think.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah, this was strange, right? It's like a two-phase kind of jack-o-and-hide, like all pleasant as smiles in person, and then for whatever re reason, by email, they feel like they could be condescending and rude. But they can't do it in person.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Hmm. They're hiding behind their the screen. That's why.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

It's so passive aggressive.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

So well, I have had every one of those clients. Uh, so I am just going to use uh two, two uh examples. Uh this one, um, I am grateful to her because I changed my uh engagement letter a lot because of her. Uh she was ridiculous. She was a ridiculous person. Uh she had to review invoices before she would agree to pay them. We had to put so much uh of a summary in what we did, and we still had to prove what we did. And we would literally have to be like, this happened here, and that happened there, and that and she still would be like, I don't understand, and therefore I'm not gonna pay you. Uh man. And I was the dum-dum who made changes to my engagement letter based on what she wanted me to change it to.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Lesson learned.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

A lesson learned. Uh however, she's also the reason why I put my um nine to five, we do not talk to you after those hours. Hey, if you've got a if you have a relationship with one of my staff that requires you, like I mean, I do have a couple of clients that are working in the Pentagon, they're working a skiff, you know, they like the only time they can communicate is after 6 p.m. Yeah, that's okay. It's a it's an agreement that you and one of my staff have have come to. Fine. But again, do not have this expectation sending me an email at six o'clock and then sending me a nasty email at 10 o'clock because I didn't respond to you. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

That would be unreasonable.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Yeah. Yep. And uh, and then we also had an SYA or CYA situation, which is an ongoing thing with us because that client gave me such terrible PTSD that I do this with all of my clients now. So um she would uh purposely try to do phone calls to say things, to then say, I never said that. Or oh, yeah. So we started to record all meetings, like video meetings, record all phone calls, uh, record like literally everything. And then she went after us. We had a sense that she was going to come after us because she had this trail of going after a lot of people, and we were like, why is she suing all these people? Like, what is going on? And of course, she comes back to me. Thankfully, we had such good records that it bounced right off of us. It was a waste of my time, and I was kind of upset about that, but thankfully she couldn't prove any of the things. And um, in the meantime, we uncovered some pretty uh really sketchy things, thankfully, uh, because we had to do so much digging to um prove ourselves because she she accused us of something from more than a year ago. So, with all that digging, well, we found other things. Uh other things that pointed some really uh thick, chubby fingers in her direction. And uh then we reported her to the correct authorities.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Oh wow, that bad, huh?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

It was it was pretty bad. Uh don't want to say too much because obviously it's yeah, but still, okay, you know, there you go. The uh I feel I felt like I had to swing my sword around all the time. And uh and sometimes as a business owner, you do. You have to prove yourself and and prevent yourself from being taken by these people, and so you must be vigilant at all times.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

Yeah, you try your best to prevent the situation, but honestly, sometimes even with the best intentions and well-laid plans, you're still gonna end up, like you said, you sometimes don't know until you've worked with them for a while that that this is gonna happen or something, and sometimes some things change over time. Like in my case, personnel changed, right? In your case, it could just be it could also be just like a life event that happened, it's thrown them off course. And yeah, you know, it's unfortunate, but you know, that's just part of being in business and dealing with dealing with relationships. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

And that's happened to our company twice in a month where personnel changed, but it was okay and it went, it went really well. Those were those were perfect situations where the personnel that replaced them um were good, were respectful, respectful of our time. All of those things that I said are good clients. That's what both of those companies' uh replacements became. Yeah. And so, hey, all for the better. It makes me feel great. Um, and speaking of great, wouldn't it be great to hear the sound of us promoting your business for you right here on our show? Mm-hmm. You can have that and more by producing a show or shows, multiple shows. I I mean that works for me. Uh all you have to do is email us at the businessbehind small business at gmail.com to express your interest. And we will share with you what you'll receive with your investment. You'll have the opportunity to have your name and the name of your business mentioned multiple times during our show, have your company logo on our social media, along with details on how to get in touch with you and other marketing opportunities as well. Please support us so that we can continue supporting you. All right, so we're moving on to a famous example. In each episode, we'd like to connect a famous example to our discussion to help you relate our talking points on a more global and recognizable scale. Uh, we're revealing the dots between the living room startup and the success story on the cover of Forbes. Sometimes we use exact examples of either famous persons or successful business owners of today or in history. And sometimes we use examples of people who inspire us and have inspired today's discussion.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Okay, so I found an interesting one. It is between KFC and BidFest Logistics over the UK. I know, right? Like, but it's actually kind of an interesting story. So I was like, oh, this I didn't I didn't realize this happened. But in 2018, KFC, which, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken had a major operational crisis when they basically switched logistics contracts. Um switch is a nice word for it, switch. They went from BitFest Logistics to DHL in in the UK. And um and uh this this actually switch, this this little break, uh led to a temporary shortage of chicken, forcing a lot of the KFCs in the UK to close. Oh my gosh. They ran out of chicken.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

I didn't know that was possible.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

So yeah, so essentially, you know, um, whatever the behind-the-scenes reason is that KFC felt like BitBest wasn't doing what they need they needed, and so they went ahead and switched uh the vendors to DHL. Now they had such a big issue, like this was a complete breakdown in supply chain because DHL simply had their own issues and couldn't turn around what KFC needed, which led to the shortage of chicken. It's very sad. Um and uh because of this, one, it lost the sales and um temporarily had to close 600 stores because of this because they ran out of chicken. I want to keep saying that sentence. I don't know why. I also really want fried chicken right now. I know, I really want fried chicken. Chicken sounds really good right now. And um and not to mention the fact that in the UK it was a bit of a big deal. There's a lot of negative publicity that came with this, so much so that eventually KFC had to reinstate Bitfest Logistics to manage the supply chain to be able to resolve this crisis. So talk about full circle. I'm sure we've had clients who maybe complained about us and then eventually came back. I definitely had a couple.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

I definitely have as well. Yeah. Uh so I am gonna use the same uh example that I used when we aired this show two years ago. Something like that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Um starting middle COVID.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

It was like a big um uh three years ago, maybe? I don't know. Anyway, so one of the most famous toxic relationships that I'm aware of, and the one that I think is I I love this story, is of Clive Davis and David Winshaw. So Clive Davis's name might be familiar to you because he was the head of Arista Records and he was always on the arm of Whitney Houston. Um, he discovered her and um molded her. I say I do it, I I do I'm doing quotes because um he had a relationship, not a relationship, a professional relationship with CeCe uh Houston and with um, oh gosh, I can't remember the name of her aunt. I can see her face. She did the psychic hotline. I can't remember. Anyway, um, if you remember, email me. Uh anyway, so he had uh he it her Whitney's family was already in music. So anyway, so Clive Davis was already very well known, and he was also the face of Arista. Uh and also he and Winshaw uh were co-leaders of CBS at the time. The relationship became toxic, however, when it was discovered that Clive Davis was using CBS's funds to develop financial stability for himself, himself, his self, where is that from? Uh for himself and his personal life, his self.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Don't look at me. I said CIY. I know C Y I. I don't even know what I said. Apparently, whatever I said was not what was in my head. So, you know, it's not it's not a good day for talking with the talks with the words and talking.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Um, anyway, so he used business funds to throw extravagant parties, and Winshaw uh was the one who exposed him. However, uh he also was so shocked that um Clive Davis was uh involved in this kind of activity. However, it turns out the investigation uncovered that Winshaw not only knew all along, but that he was also engaging in illegal activity. Yep. So it just took one partner turning on the other pot kettle, yep, to expose the criminal acts.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

That is definitely uh that's a that's a story. I know. I I I like it a lot because I feel like you know, he was trying to expose Clive Davis and pointing the finger and trying to get him in jail when he pointing the finger at himself. Pointing the finger at himself. It's small world again. What goes around does come around. Absolutely, and it's much like the client that I was just saying, like was trying to point the finger at us and then he probably would have never done that digging. I would have never known that they were involved in this one particular illegal activity until I. Yep, so there you go.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

All right, so there's a saying that goes, put your money where your mouth is. And we're drilling down a bit further here to connect what we've discussed in today's show at a granular level to tangible sources you can take to get you to the next level.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

All right, so I I like these recommendations, so I kept them as is. But um, my favorite one, one of my favorite books about the subject, which is just about like customer relationships in general, is Delivering Happiness, A Path to Profits, Passion and Purpose by, of course, the Zappa former Zappo uh CEO, Tony Shea. Um, he was probably, I don't even know if he was before Amazon, but he definitely became big on the whole, like the the um advocate of having great customer support and customer relationship. Um, probably like just became well known for that, and the butterfly effect of the uh quality of clients that you can have once you have a great company culture as well. And so again, this goes back to how would you say, like trying to prevent the issue as much as you can by attracting the right clients instead of, you know, again, the the after the fact, which is now you have a toxic client on your hands and you have to deal with it, which is no fun. There's also the book, The Starbucks Experience, uh Five Principles of Turning Ordinary into Extraordinary by Joseph A. What is it? The Chelli? The Chelli. Sure, sounds good. We'll go with that. Um so basically in that book, he dives into the personalized customer experience that we find now in the mainstream markets. Um and but it was like such a big deal when Starbucks first introduced this idea in 1992. So you have to remember, like, you know, things we're so used to now didn't exist in the 90s. It got invented. So really quick sidetrack though, something about that. So I was watching a um a video, it was a speech that um Jeff Bezos was giving to uh Stanford Business School graduates. And he he, you know, and it it was in 2005. And so he was going over a lot of stuff, and it was so fascinating because you know, he made this one comment which really took me back, and he was like, he's like, oh, you know, last week we just we just um introduced this really cool new feature called Amazon Prime. Right? And you're like it's like so ingrained in everyday life now that you don't even think that, oh, at one point this didn't exist prior to 2005. First of all, I was surprised because I was like, wait, 2005 really? I thought it would have been earlier than this. 2005.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

No, I wouldn't expect it to have been before that.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

I know, but you just feel like it's been around for so long and you lose concept of time. But like the idea of the internet. I know, right? It wasn't even that Taylor, if I was a Facebook was just coming out, you still needed like school email addresses.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

I want to say, yeah, Facebook was like 2006, but for school people, like for people in school.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Yeah, you had to have a school email address. Yeah. I remember that. It was this thing. Like I had a friend who had to sign me up because I refused to sign up on it.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

And they're like, Yeah, you're like, no, no, this is like the biggest thing now. And he like, and I was like, what is the point of this?

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Yeah, it was somewhere between, I want to say it was in 2000 or 2001 when I started with Friendster. Somewhere around there. 2000, 2001, Friendster and MySpace. MySpace. I was like, that's the other one, right? Yeah. My Space. Yeah, and then 2007 was the iPhone. A lot happened in the knots, didn't it? There was no iPhones back then. Yeah, yes. 2007 is when the iPhone was, which is so insane.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

And prior to that, the iPod and the Well, prior to that was Nokia.

unknown 59:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Those little Nokia phones were like all the rage, like the smaller the better. Yeah, and the BlackBerry phones. Oh, Blackberry, yeah. Remember the sidekick? Yes, of course. Yeah, and then I don't know, I never understood why the razor was such a big deal. I love the razor. I don't know why it was such a big deal. It was a freaking like flat flip phone. You know what I loved about it?

SPEAKER_01 59:23

I could be like, goodbye.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

I loved it. I love being able to flip the flip phone. I always wanted a sidekick. I never ended up getting one, but it's still so cool the way it like flipped.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Oh yeah. I know. Kind of like a like a knife. I had one of those too, and I thought it was so cool. I thought I was so cool having one of those. But the thing I liked about the razor was that I could fit it into my front pocket.

SPEAKER_02 59:42

Maybe it's well, I at that point it was the thinnest phone there was ever made, right?

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Yeah, because when I went to a club, I never carried a purse. I didn't care and carry anything on me, but like uh I would fold my money up really tight and I would put it in the like as far deep as I could into my pocket. I mean, I was in Detroit. What were you expecting? And then I put my phone in the in the front because who's gonna reach into the front pocket to grab my phone, right? And then I put my lip gloss, and that was all I carried with me when I went to the club. So we digress.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

Yes, we digress. Sorry, sorry, Stephanie. But the idea is I just thought, like, you know, what was so revolutionary to Starbucks in 1992, what we're so used to now is just the norm. Yeah. They were just coming up with this concept back in the day, and I just thought that was fascinating. Which, by the way, Google it, that Jeff Basil's talk to Stanford, uh, Stanford Business School, very good talk. It was great. Um, and then last but not least, The Code of Extraordinary Mind by Vishing Lakyani. Um, something I can say that name, but I can't say the other name. That's fine. It's fine. Um, it's more of a spiritual book. However, the one thing I would have everybody zone in on is go to chapter nine, and there's a lesson on how to build yourself up to deal with more types of people. And he he, by the way, if nobody knows who he is, he actually has a pretty, you know, big business. So his thing is more like spiritual plus with a practical business spin on all of the topics. So it's not gonna be just um how do I say this without sounding offensive to what people feel like it's foo-foo. I don't think it's foo foo. I think it's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Yeah. Don't be a mat. Be a door. Yeah, don't be a mat for people to walk on. Be a door. Be a door.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:23

Open them to new possibilities or close the door. Shut it in their face.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

Shut it in their face. Like I used to do with the razor. Yes. Bye. Bye. Out you go. All right. There aren't a whole lot of books that I really cared for on this subject, but there's uh a lot out there on how to create a company culture. So that's that's what I think. I think if you create a brand that it comes back to attraction, right? So if you have the type of company that people recognize they're not gonna be able to mess with, then you likely aren't going to have those kinds of difficult clients. Uh, so my recommended reading is a book by Alan Willett, and it's named Leading the Unleadable. Uh although the book focuses on persons inside of your company, I feel like the examples can be applied to clients as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

Yeah. I do it's all people.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Yeah, but I did thoroughly enjoy uh reading Toxic Client, Knowing and Avoiding Problem Customers by Garrett Sutton.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Well, there you go. That wraps it all up in a one neat sentence, right? I wonder what that's about.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

Um it shares a lot of the ideas that we shared here. It dives a little deeper, um, and it takes you to the kind of mindset that you need. It it again it goes back to like make sure that you are in the right mindset, that you are putting out there the right kind of mindset so that good clients are attracted to you and not not challenging ones. Challenging. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:53

We should call them challenging, not toxic.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

Well, they're toxic too.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Yeah, but that's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:59

So um, so are we gonna do our uh a holiday? Are we gonna it is the holiday season? Yeah. It's the holiday season. I think we should.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:08

I think we should have some a couple a couple cups of hot chocolate and our cups. Oh, should I wear my Santa hat? Oh, we totally should. Yes, we will have a holiday episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

I've got an ugly sweater, I could wear that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

You're like I draw the line there. Um, okay, so please join us for our next episode, which will be our holiday special. Oh, I feel like we should have like dancers and like something else or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:37

There is only so much editing I can do.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

What we're going to talk about is seasons past, uh, present, and future. We have some exciting stuff coming up that we want to talk about before we take a break for before our brrrrrr fourth season. Oh my gosh. What? Oh my god. And we haven't been canceled yet. This is amazing. How is it that we're still like our numbers are still increasing?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Oh no, it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

Please show us your. Please don't cancel us. Yeah, don't you? Don't cancel us. Hopefully, you like see that five star now would be the good perfect time to hit like. Yes. Like, like, like, five-star rating, you know, yeah, not all of them. Just suggest a five-star rating.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

Yes. And you can show you can follow us on Instagram, you can follow me on TikTok. I'm trying so hard to be on there on a daily basis, but I've She really is.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

I've missed She's getting no help from me. She really is. So hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

And yeah, and my son will even come up to me like, Did you post on TikTok today? Like, oh no, I forgot. Anyway, or I don't have makeup on. So anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

You look fabulous though on the social media stuff, I have to say.

unknown 1:04:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

It's simply you'll show up on my feed whenever I get it, which I don't get on it that much. So it's like very maybe it saves it all up for when I get on it. And then it's just the sister face. And like every once in a while I'll see it and be like, oh, who is this? Oh, that's ours.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

You're liking it, right? Yes. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

All right. So you, you listeners and watchers, please show us your support by following us on your preferred podcast platform, social media and YouTube. Social media, like I said, is uh right now we've got Instagram and and TikTok. I don't know if I'm on anything else. I don't know. We'd love for you to also share our episodes. All of our links are posted below. Until next time, mind the business behind your small business because all great successes start small. Really? With the hand gestures. I'm trying to.