Do you ever wonder how lawyers seem to bring in an endless stream of clients? This week's guest, Elise Holtzman from The Lawyer's Edge, shares the secrets behind the art of rainmaking. We dive into Elise's personal journey, from practicing law to becoming a coach and trainer, and how she uses her knowledge to help lawyers transform into successful rainmakers. This concept, more than just attracting new clients, involves keeping existing ones happy, and importantly, having the right team to do the work.
We also discuss the critical role of delegation within law firms. Investing in junior associates and trusting them with tasks not only helps firms grow but also frees up time for higher-level work. After all, we all have the same 24 hours in a day - it's how we choose to use them that counts.
Connect with Elise on LinkedIn and learn more at www.thelawyersedge.com
Do you ever wonder how lawyers seem to bring in an endless stream of clients? This week's guest, Elise Holtzman from The Lawyer's Edge, shares the secrets behind the art of rainmaking. We dive into Elise's personal journey, from practicing law to becoming a coach and trainer, and how she uses her knowledge to help lawyers transform into successful rainmakers. This concept, more than just attracting new clients, involves keeping existing ones happy, and importantly, having the right team to do the work.
We also discuss the critical role of delegation within law firms. Investing in junior associates and trusting them with tasks not only helps firms grow but also frees up time for higher-level work. After all, we all have the same 24 hours in a day - it's how we choose to use them that counts.
Connect with Elise on LinkedIn and learn more at www.thelawyersedge.com
This podcast is brought to you by Spotlight Branding. Whether your firm only gets a few referrals or it's 100% of your business, you have the opportunity to double your referrals through educational, informative content. The pros at Spotlight Branding can help you create that content through blogging videos, email newsletters and more All designed to help you increase your referrals and attract the kinds of clients you want to work with. Visit spotlightbrandingcom slash pod to learn more. That's spotlightbrandingcom slash pod.
Speaker 2:This is Center Stage putting your firm in the spotlight by highlighting business owners and other industry experts to help take your firm to the next level. Hey everyone, and welcome to Center Stage. I'm your host, john Hinton, and this week we are being joined by a former practicing lawyer who has now become a coach and a trainer now the CEO of the Lawyer's Edge, which is also a podcast which you should definitely check out and that is Elise Holtzman. She's gonna be. We're gonna talk about just a wide-ranging set of things just around setting up your firm for success and really give you a good bit of insight into the things that Elise helps lawyers out with. So, elise, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3:I'm thrilled to be here, John. Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So I kind of gave the broad strokes introduction there where you came from now, but tell us a little bit more about your background and why you transitioned out of being a practicing lawyer to what you're doing now with the Lawyer's Edge.
Speaker 3:Sure. So I graduated from law school a long time ago, went straight into big law in New York City. I didn't know anything different. I didn't come from a family of lawyers and I also had a lot of loans to pay off. So I went to a couple of big law firms in Manhattan and I was working in the area of commercial real estate transactions, which I absolutely loved. I loved doing deals. Back then we used to get together in big conference rooms with a million documents and a million people, so it was very exciting.
Speaker 3:I wound up leaving the practice of law kind of grudgingly. I loved what I did. I was happy at my firm in general, but there were no women mentors back then. I had amazing mentors and sponsors who were all men with stay-at-home lives, and so they were incredible and I learned so much from them. But ultimately, my husband and I my husband's also a big law lawyer, by the way so we had a baby. I'm afraid to tell you how old the baby is, but anyway, we had this baby and we kind of tried to make it work. It was like a bad movie, I mean pulling all-nighters and working all weekend and trying to make it work, and there was no such thing as part-time back then, but they let me try it and I was supposed to work 40 hours a week as a part-time gig and I was still working 70 hours a week.
Speaker 1:So it was just nuts and.
Speaker 3:I thought well, you know what I tried. This thing it doesn't work. I was sort of annoyed about the whole thing and, at the same time, because I felt like it wasn't my choice, and at the same time, recognized that most women didn't have the luxury of staying home with their kids, which is what I wound up doing. So I wound up being home with kids for a while and then, about 15 years ago 16 years ago maybe decided that it was time to figure out what I was gonna be when I grew up and I found out about executive and leadership coaching, did a full year certificate program in that, and then started the lawyer's edge. So I've been doing this. You know, I've been in business for almost exactly 15 years now and work exclusively with lawyers and law firms on a variety of things that they didn't teach us in law school, the most prominent of those being business development and leader development.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So yeah, and you know, I know that you're just an absolute wealth of information on this and the first question that I had for you and I've seen this term floating around I've been working with lawyers for nine years, I've seen this term every now and then and hopefully this doesn't make me sound too ignorant, but, like, I'm still not entirely sure what it entails and that is the term rain making, and I know that you do a lot with this. What exactly is rain making and what all does that encompass?
Speaker 3:So it depends who you talk to. Rain making is really about being able to consistently bring in a significant amount of client business to your firm, and so that can often be new clients, depending on the firm, and it can often be, you know, keeping people that are already clients very happy and bringing in new matters on a consistent basis. A rain maker is somebody who's bringing in enough work that they are keeping other people in the law firm busy. So there's leverage there, right? You're not just bringing in business that you're going to sit and do, You're bringing in business that is going to help you grow the firm by having more people working kind of under your umbrella. And so some people will say that rain making is when somebody's bringing in a tremendous amount of business and it's somehow different from calling someone you know a good business developer. I think they're the same thing. These are terms that we use interchangeably, but it's really about being able to for lack of a better term make the cash register ring both for yourself and for other people in the firm.
Speaker 2:Got it.
Speaker 2:Yes, I wasn't sure if it was. You know kind of the synonymous with the whole, the slang of making it rain, you know with the cash and the revenue. But that is good because I think that does help frame kind of the next few questions I was going to ask because you know you talk about being a rainmaker and that involves, you know, having bringing in enough work for other people to do. But the starting point of that is going out and finding good people to do that work. And so you know, I know that I mean there's so many people that we work with and that we're connected with that help law firms attract talent. I know how we do it here internally.
Speaker 2:Obviously we're not a law firm, you know, but we work with lawyers, so we know how we try to attract talent. What things should a law firm be doing? You know, whether it's with their hiring process or onboarding or whatever. You know what sort of things do you sort of tell people when it comes to helping them attract and then also retain the rock stars and the really good team members for a firm?
Speaker 3:So the lawyer's edge does not do hiring, however right. So we're not an executive search firm or lawyer search firm. However, we do often have these conversations with our clients for the reasons you suggested. Right, they're looking to grow their firms. They want the right people to be there. They want people that are going to stay with them. Right, it's not good for any law firms to have a lot of turnover. We have more of it in today's world than we used to right, people leave to go pursue other opportunities more than they traditionally did, but it is something that's top of mind for all law firm leaders, and so, first of all, I think it's important to have a really good understanding of what your culture is and what your values are, and if you're just looking to hire people from quote unquote, the right law schools or with a certain pedigree, I think that you're going to run into trouble, because people need to fit right. They need to fit in, and it doesn't mean they all need to look alike, right? We're not talking about that. But do these people share your values? Are they rowing in the same direction? Do they want the kinds of things that make sense for them to want, based on what your firm delivers or what your firm is looking to achieve. Another thing is that many firms hire without any understanding of the business of law, so the people they're hiring don't understand the business of law, and the people doing the hiring are often paying more attention to what technical legal skills do you have? What other law firm did you come out of? What law school did you come out of, so that they wind up hiring for pedigree or a list of types of matters that person has worked on, rather than understanding that long term. It's important for these folks to also have an interest in the business of law, running a law firm, bringing business into the law firm, being part of, potentially in the future, the leadership of the law firm, taking a longer view, so that you're more likely to hire the right people. And so I'll just give one example that comes to mind for me. There is a litigation boutique in a large city that I've done some work with, and there are about 30 to 35 lawyers, depending on what's going on, and they have they always have hired for pedigree.
Speaker 3:So the guys that started the firm came out of big law firms in the 80s. They started this law firm. They had business. They were doing pretty well. It was kind of natural for them. And they said we need more people. And so they went around hiring lawyers from you know the best law schools in the US and Canada. And what wound up happening was, some years later, as the older lawyers, the senior lawyers, were starting to slow down and retire, they realized that there was quite literally nobody in the firm except one guy that you know was in the second generation that generated business.
Speaker 3:And so now, all of a sudden, you're looking ahead and saying, oh my goodness, we hire these incredible lawyers. Many of them are people who love to sit at their desk and grind out really, really good legal work products but there's nobody here that is interested in helping us grow the firm, helping us lead the firm and helping us bring in the right kinds of clients. So I think it is important for law firms to take a longer view when they're hiring. You know it may not be easy to identify who those folks are going to be, but I do think that it's important to at least have conversations with people so that they understand that you're not just hiring them to grind out some good legal work for a couple of years. You are interested in hiring them for the long term and the contributions that they can make to the firm you know are going to be important, and then you kind of want to have a sense of what they think those look like. As far as retention goes, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, and to that point, you know in all the years that I've been doing this and all the conversations and everything I've noticed, like this very strange relationship here, because you know lawyers inherently, you know whether they believe it themselves or they've been told this is entire, their entire lives. They're incredibly intelligent, incredibly intelligent, very smart, can process a lot of information, but for whatever reason and whether it's just because they assume the business of law and business of running a law firm is just kind of something that comes with it and they should be able to figure it out or whatever, but it seems like they're always really good at being a lawyer. But then they a lot of times struggle with that business side of things and it's just so interesting and like we've always talked about how well it's because they don't teach you how to run a business in law school or whatever. But is it, you know? Is it just because it takes two completely different skill sets to completely different parts of your brain? Like why? Why is that struggle so prevalent with lawyers?
Speaker 3:I think there are a couple reasons there. You mentioned the idea that they don't teach us stuff, this stuff, in law school, and they absolutely don't. I mean, I have this. You know this joke that we get two things, and I mean it's not totally a joke, but we get two things in law school, you know. One is we get a foundation in the law, so they teach us torrents and constitutional law and contracts and criminal law, all that good stuff. And then they teach you how to think like a lawyer, so you can never think like a normal person again, which is totally true, like just go to buy like an office chair or something and you're, you know, you're sort of looking at the fine print. But the idea is that they then say you know, congratulations, you're a lawyer, go have a great career and their job is done and it is, it's done, you leave law school. But they never mention all of the things that are important in running a law firm, in running a business or even in, you know, learning to motivate people and you know all of the sorts of things that hiring and firing, as we just discussed, all of the things that come to be critical in terms of running not just a law firm, but also other organizations in house legal departments, you know, government agencies, those sorts of things so we don't get any of that.
Speaker 3:On top of that, though, think about who self selects into law school, right? Nobody set comes to us and says you're going, you know you're going to law school, john. You have no choice. We make the choice to go into law school, and so most people aren't going into law school because they wanted to become salespeople. If they had wanted to become salespeople, they would have gone and become salespeople and done something different. Most people aren't going into law school because they're tremendous risk takers.
Speaker 3:So research has been done on the personality types that most often show up in law school and then in the legal profession, and those are people who are typically not Big picture thinkers, future focused right there, very good at detail work. They're very good at executing on concrete, specific tasks, very good at problem solving right. They kind of like time and structure, and so these are not the people that are thinking in law school about how am I going to run a business? I mean, didn't. Even when I tell you I worked at a big law firm, literally never crossed my mind. Not joking. I didn't grow up around entrepreneurs. My dad always worked for company, my mom always worked for a school system. Somebody else ran the business. I did the work that they gave me and so it becomes clearer when you're in a smaller firm pretty quickly, right, because you know if you're not bringing in the business and you're not running the firm, the phone, you know the somebody's gonna turn the electricity off. So you have to pay more attention to that. But I do think that it's a combination of things.
Speaker 3:And then Certainly at at some of the larger law firms and even law firms that are smaller but you know, have a Sophisticated practice, let's say, or they're not as focused on their junior people, you know, running the firm. They say to their junior lawyers listen, bill, bill, bill, bill, bill. Right, and look, even if you're in a contingency firm or whatever it is, the, the money isn't getting made unless somebody's Working and billing the time. So no one is saying, hey, when you're a first-year associate, even a fifth-year associate, most of the time let's pay attention to the business of law.
Speaker 3:No, it's all about get, become a good lawyer, be a good technician, get the work done, keep the client happy and bill, bill, bill, and so I'm not. You know, I'm very. I Don't really criticize lawyers for not knowing how to do this stuff. Rather than saying like, right, and it's more like Observation, and rather than saying like my god, why are these people so terrible? It's almost like why wouldn't they be terrible? Right, because they didn't self-select, because they wanted to do these things, and then they weren't taught these things. And then they get to the law firm, and the law firm doesn't teach those things either, for the most part, unless you're in a very unusual place, and so I think that that's really the reasoning Behind the results that we see in that regard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's. It's kind of that perfect storm, like you mentioned, especially with just kind of the personality types where they are just really focused on being down in the weeds and executing and then also being very risk averse. And you know, when you open up a business, there's a ton of risk always in a lot of different things that you do. And then you also find out, okay, well, now I need to entrust a marketing vendor or I need to entrust, you know, a Bookkeeper, and all this. I have to now place my entire livelihood almost into the hands of maybe other people or.
Speaker 3:I have to figure out how to do this all myself, and that's I think that's where we see a lot of this friction showing up one of the things that I say to people and I think this is really important when it comes to Moving ahead as an attorney In the early part of your career as an attorney. For most people, that ability to be in the weeds, to be focused on the details, to execute and run something across the finish line is immensely valuable. And so you can imagine you get to a law firm and they want you to dot those eyes. They they need you to cross those T's, they need you to proofread the document and get things perfect and get things right, because that's what they're paying you for. Right? That is quite literally your job, because somebody else is up here right and and like at a higher level and delegating work down to you.
Speaker 3:Having said that, as you become more senior, your role shifts, and so this is for everybody, not just for attorneys right, but as you become more senior, your job becomes more about managing people and projects and Getting stuff done, even if you're not the one doing it, and less about your individual contribution To you know, writing the brief or whatever it may be. That shift is not easy for many people to make, the people that maybe have a harder time earlier as a lawyer, because they're bigger picture thinkers and those details make them want to, you know, shoot themselves. It's easier for them To shift sometimes into those leadership roles because they naturally see the big picture. They naturally are willing to look out and say how can I get this done, rather than with all these people and resources, and Rather than how can I do it myself. So what we're asking people to do is say, well, you've been a really, really good associate for all these years and now we want you to help run the firm, which is a completely different skill set.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, and so most people don't wake up in the morning and say I have a really great idea, this stuff that has worked really well for me for 35 or 40 years.
Speaker 3:What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna throw all that out the window and I'm gonna start doing something completely different and change my skills up Completely overnight. Nobody does that Right, and so I think that if people are in a position now where they're looking to either become somebody who is more senior, becomes a leader, wants to become a rainmaker, or you are a managing partner or a law firm leader that's, looking at some of your people and you want to help them get there I think that explaining that shift and saying, listen, over the next few years, there are some different kinds of skills that we would like you to learn that we think will be instrumental to you succeeding in this second part of your career. I think that helping the people turn the light bulb on to see that they can't keep doing the same thing they've always done, even though they've been doing it successfully, is very, very important, because I don't think most people recognize that that's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because it helps us kind of transition back into the original path we were going down in this conversation and I'm glad that we kind of went down that tangent a little bit. But when it comes to retaining those best employees, is that really one of the best ways to do it is to kind of help them develop those additional skills that like to kind of prevent them from getting in that rhythm of doing what they've always done, and kind of elevating them into and adding those more skills.
Speaker 3:Yes, sean, I think that's exactly what it's about is recognizing what the skills are, what the behaviors are, the habits, what the mindsets are that are required for success as a more senior attorney, as a law firm leader, as a rainmaker, whatever it is that this person wants to achieve or you want this person to achieve and then investing in them. And I'm not necessarily talking about money it could be money, and probably you could look at it as dollars and cents but investing in these people and helping them grow First of all. That's what millennials and Gen Z, who are starting to come into law firms now, are looking for. They have grown up where their guardians and their parents have made investments in them. They love learning, they've been taught, they've had benchmarks, and so, look, I mean, you can complain about it, and boomers and Gen Xers can complain about it, and millennials complain about Gen Xers and boomers.
Speaker 3:It's all good, it's all normal, but I think that, understanding that these folks are coming into the workplace, they want to grow in general, they want to grow, they want to learn, and so you have an opportunity to let them know that, yes, you are part of this firm, you are part of this culture. We do want to retain you here. We are willing to invest in you. We are willing to help you figure out what comes next for you and learn those skills and give you stretch assignments that we are confident that you will be able to take on, and not just let them sit in their offices grinding out the work and being invisible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely and honestly. That's one of the things that I really appreciated about what we do here at Spotlight Branding is people come here, they're not just collecting a paycheck. There's that culture of pursue your passions. Or if you want to take a course, let us know and we'll cover it and help you develop skills that will help make you more efficient in your seat, or to help you maybe take on more responsibility, so that you can then maybe elevate and make more money down the road. And that's to your point. Yeah, people don't want to just show up to work to make a paycheck. They want to contribute, they want to feel like they belong and they want more of that two-way street with wherever they're working at.
Speaker 3:You mentioned that I have a podcast and I actually just this morning recorded an episode with a managing partner of a 35-lawyer law firm in Toronto and we were talking about this idea that some law firms now are saying what? We don't want to hire really junior people because they're so expensive, we don't want to invest all kinds of time, money and energy. We'll hire them later, when somebody else has done the training and that kind of thing. And so, look, it's understandable. I mean, we know that human resources are often an organization's biggest expense and so for some law firms it may not make sense to hire super junior people.
Speaker 3:Having said that, the concept of we don't want to invest in people because they may leave and go somewhere else, or we don't want to invest in people because it's going to cost us something, I think is counterproductive. It can be understandable and yet it's not desirable. And so I encourage lawyers who are listening in and have that attitude to think about what does this look like? And we're not suggesting that you send them out to a million conferences a year and just keep throwing money at them. There are ways to train your people and mentor and sponsor and make that investment of time and energy, even if it's not hard dollars and cents, that is going to reap you benefits. And so, yes, some of them are going to leave. We know that's the way it is, but does that mean that you don't want to grow internally and grow your firm and grow leaders, simply because you may lose a little bit on one or two people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so we've talked about the employee side of things. I want to touch on the mindset of that business owner before we wrap up here and I want to ask you about how you can delegate that work and pass it off to someone else and trust them to do it. We talk about how important that is you can't do everything yourself but I'm curious to get your thoughts on this, because this is a question that I have, even in my own role, where it's like, let's say that there's a world where a lawyer has delegated the bookkeeping, the marketing, all of the non-legal stuff. They've delegated that out, they recognize that that's not what they're good at and they're putting that in the hands of another expert. But then, if you feel like you're the expert in doing the legal work, how do you delegate legal work to other people and still feel like you're being effective and being the best lawyer that you could be?
Speaker 3:I love this question. There's so much unpack here. Okay, so a couple of things. First of all, you mentioned that lawyers are highly intelligent, and they are right. They've done well in school, they're academically inclined, they're really good at learning and they're really good at executing. And so what happens is and I will say this in you know, I do a lot of speaking for lawyer groups and I'll say this in a room and I'll just say the following If I want done, if I want something done, right, and the whole room will say at the same time, I have to do it myself, right?
Speaker 3:Because that's kind of the mantra of lawyers is that I'm smart, I trust myself, I know I do good work, and if I give it to somebody else, it's not going to be done the way I would do it. What if it's not perfect? Because there's a perfectionism train that runs right through the legal profession and, by the way, if I delegate it to someone, it's going to take me more time to explain it to them than it would for me to do it myself, right? So I hear this all the time. You know, if I had a nickel for every time I heard this, I'd be a very wealthy woman. So here's the thing no lawyer has ever, you know, earned absolute top compensation, become managing partner of a law firm, brought in tons of business who wanted to do it all him or herself. You cannot be the person who's sitting up at three o'clock in the morning proofreading documents and be the leader of your firm. Right?
Speaker 3:There are things that have to get delegated out to other people, and so the second thing I would say is delegation is not abdication. There's a difference between those two things. And you mentioned the idea of delegating tasks out to you know, for bookkeeping or for marketing or HR, whatever it may be. Even though you are hiring experts to do those things, you are still not abdicating responsibility. All of those things have to be done in accordance with the firm's values and the firm's vision and mission and all of those sorts of things, because otherwise it's not right for your firm. In the same way, you can delegate legal work out to people and you're not necessarily abdicating it and just saying, well, you know, you're not necessarily totally qualified yet, but sure go off and run with it and, you know, do whatever you want.
Speaker 3:So I think that this goes back to the investment concept. When you delegate to other people. Yes, it does take time to teach them and train them and make sure they're doing it the XYZ law firm way right, or your way. At the same time, it's an investment that will pay dividends. If you were able to free yourself up for the highest and best use of your time, that's where the investment pays off.
Speaker 3:So, as an example, I have people say to me all the time because I, you know, I do a tremendous amount of business development work with law firms and individual lawyers you don't understand the least, I can't find time to do this stuff. Again, it's the number one comment that I hear from lawyers when it comes to business development. The thing is that if you're not delegating, if you feel like you have to hold on to everything yourself and do it yourself, you won't have the time You're not going to be able to create. We all have the same 24 sevens. So it's a question of what are you doing with your time?
Speaker 3:And if you are proofreading documents, if you are doing all of your own bills, if you are, you know, answering every email, no matter how immaterial it is right, if you're drafting low level documents that somebody else could be drafting, you are not freeing up your time for the highest and best use, which is probably doing the high, which is probably one of three things doing the high value, the high level legal work that only you can do running the firm and developing the business yeah Right, and so you get stuck in a cycle, and so what I say is find the right person to whom to delegate, train that person, give them deadlines to come back and talk to you.
Speaker 3:Don't shoot the messenger when they do something that you don't like. Explain to them. You know it's really a teaching process. Make sure those lines of communication are kept open and that they're coming back to you and over time, you're training them to do work in a way that makes sense for the firm and in a way that allows you to do the things that only you can do, that only you're meant to be doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Absolutely. And you know, as I'm hearing this, it's like I almost hear like lawyer voices in the back of my head. But I don't have time to train people. I don't even have time to get all of this set up and it's like, yeah, there's going to be a time investment upfront to get all of this stuff systematized and set up so that you can hand it off. But God, the amount that you will gain back in the weeks and months and years after that is going to be like remarkable and I've seen it.
Speaker 3:I've seen it happen so many times. I have one client who is a trust and a state's lawyer and he's in his early 50s and he said to me like I can bring in so much more business, but I don't have time to do it Right. So what would happen if, all of a sudden, you brought in this amazing client or a series of amazing clients and you either did a terrible job or you had to turn them away because you simply couldn't get to the work? So what we wound up doing is, over a period of time, developed a system for what happens when a new trust in the states matter comes in and look, some of them aren't going to fit the structure because some of them are going to be very unique matters. He has very high net worth clients and so we talked about a system and developed a system.
Speaker 3:So there's somebody who does some intake and there are certain forms that have to get filled out and questions that have to get answered. It goes to a paralegal. There are a bunch of things that happen there. The paralegal meets with the attorney a couple of times a week to go over all of the matters. The attorney meets with the client a certain number of times. The expectation is the attorney will meet with the client a certain number of times to get the understanding of what's going on with the client and their family and all of that sort of thing. But what's happened is he's been able to grow his business dramatically and still provide exceptional service and perhaps more exceptional service to his clients, because he took the time to set that up and it doesn't happen overnight. So you can't have that instant gratification mentality when you want to grow. It's not a one time thing, it's kind of a marathon, not a sprint to some extent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and that sentiment carries over into I mean, we see it all the time in marketing as well. People expect overnight results and it's like no, you got to build that momentum and it takes some time. But it's really tough when the society we live in right now is so full of instant gratification and it just like people's patience is just not nearly what it used to be.
Speaker 3:I just saw a post on LinkedIn that someone put on about this idea that it takes a long time. It was a LinkedIn branding expert who talked about it taking her 10 years to grow this incredible following of like 50,000 people or something, and that people think it happened overnight. And someone commented the only thing that's instant is oatmeal and for some reason that just struck me as hilarious. But it really does go to all the things that we've been talking about today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. I mean a ton of great insight here, as always. How can people learn more about Lawyer's Edge and get in touch with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, people, I would love to meet you. If you're interested in saying hello, you can visit us at our website, which is thelawyerzedgecom, and you can also find me on LinkedIn. I hang out there quite a bit as well, and so definitely reach out and say hi.
Speaker 2:Awesome, love it. Well, that is going to do it for us here this week on Center Stage. Appreciate so much all the feedback and all of the notes that you guys have been sending in. That's going to do it At least. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening. To learn more, go to spotlightbrandingcom. Slash center stage.