Episode 139: Navigating Perimenopause with Natural Super Kids Naturopath, Sarah Worboys

After receiving such a great response to our Perimenopause Masterclass that we created for our Natural Super Kids KLUB members, we have decided to share this topic with our wider community. In this week's podcast, I'm joined by our Natural Super Kids consulting naturopath, Sarah Worboys to discuss the physical and emotional shifts of perimenopause. As Sarah and I are both in our perimenopausal years, we will be giving first-hand experience in this conversational episode.

In this episode, Sarah and I will be sharing:

• Sarah shares her journey to becoming a naturopath, and how her Mum was her first perimenopausal client;
• The facts about perimenopause including information about what hormones are affected, and potential signs and symptoms such as moodiness and sleeplessness, low mood, brain fog, fatigue, weight gain, shorter/heavier/painful periods, and insulin resistance;
• The benefits of functional testing and Sarah's favourite hormonal testing;
• Unpacking stress during perimenopause, including how stress, parenting and lifestyle can impact the health of our HPA axis;
• The benefits of self-care in the management of perimenopause; 
• Discover how exposure to morning light and limiting evening light can help regulate your sleep cycle and support overall well-being;
• The importance of sleep during this stage of life and some manageable tips for improving sleep during the disruptive sleep phase perimenopause brings;
• Jess and Sarah touch on alcohol and how it can disrupt perimenopause;
• We encourage rewarding oneself in wholesome ways, such as enjoying a hot bath or a walk in nature. 

Join us in this enlightening conversation and make your perimenopause journey healthier and more manageable.

Episode Links:

• Book a consultation with Sarah here to manage your perimenopause.

• Sign up for our FREE Immunity masterclass here.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:54

Welcome to the Natural Super Kids podcast, where you will discover practical strategies to inspire you to boost the health and nutrition of your kids. I'm Jessica Donovan, a qualified naturopath specialising in kids health, and I want to make it as easy as possible for you to raise healthy and happy kids. Let's get into it. Hello everybody, welcome back to the Natural Super Kids podcast. So good to have you listening in today. Today we are joined by our naturopath, sarah Warboys. Hello Sarah, hey Jess, good to be here, so good to have you back, and today we're going to be talking about a topic that is close to both of our hearts, which is perimenopause. So Sarah and I are both sort of in those perimenopausal years and we wanted to chat about this on the podcast, because we recently did a masterclass and a cheat sheet in the club on perimenopause and they were really popular with our club members, weren't they?

Speaker 2: 3:05

Yeah, yeah, and I think because a lot of the mums in the club are of this age you know, with tween to teen kids and we're all sort of, you know, high on hormones or low on hormones.

Speaker 1: 3:20

A bit of both sometimes, and that's such a good point because we're having babies later, generally, like, we're often going through these perimenopausal years while our you know kids are going through the teen years or the changes of puberty, sometimes even, you know, with younger kids, and so that can make things a bit tricky or just sort of you know, add different dimensions to what we're going through as well. So we, as I said, sarah and I, are both in these years and, before we get started into perimenopause. Do you want to just share a little bit about yourself for anyone who might not have heard the podcast you've been on before?

Speaker 2: 4:02

Yeah, so I'm the consulting naturopath with Natural Super Kids and been working with you for two years. But I first started studying naturopathy in the late 90s and so I was in my 20s and you know we studied female hormones, female reproductive system, and perimenopause was one of those subjects, and so I think, and so my mum at the time had started going through perimenopause, and so she was really my first patient and my first experiment. So she took her, she went to acupuncture, she started yoga, she started exercising, really sort of I think that was maybe not just because of me, but that sort of self care direction. But I think that is, you know, a lot of women find themselves in that place, realising that they can't keep going with how they were going and so things need to change because our bodies are changing and we can't do what we used to do as often or just keep pushing through. So, but I think a lot of women, like I think, through, actually, through social media, perimenopause is becoming, you know, quite talked about and women are becoming more familiar with symptoms around it and that something is going on. But I think, well, you would have studied it and I studied it. So it's always been, I think on my mind that there is something like we have tools in our naturopathic kit that can support us in this transition and we're really well placed as naturopaths and nutritionists to support ourselves and to support women going through the transition.

Speaker 1: 6:04

Yeah, such a good point, because I was actually talking to a friend recently who had gone to the doctor to get some hormone testing because she felt that things had been changing, and the doctor's answer was like there's no point in testing your hormones because, you know, nothing is definitive in any sort of blood tests when it comes to perimenopause and you're certainly not menopausal yet. So I agree like, as naturopaths and nutritionists, there's so much that we can offer to support women through this transitional stage, which is exactly what it is Like. We often talk about it as the second puberty, and I love thinking about it like that For me personally. You know my kids are sort of in the, in the throes of puberty, and so you give them, you know, you give them grace and you're patient with them because of that, and so I think we need to, you know, do the same for ourselves and our perimenopausal friends and family, because it is, you know, it is a transition and it is a change. So do you want to share some of the facts about perimenopause, in case people sort of are wondering what is this perimenopause and am I actually in it?

Speaker 2: 7:15

Yeah. So, like you just said about the hormone or testing like that, yeah, hormones do start moving, so progesterone naturally declines and estrogen goes on a bit of a rollercoaster. So progesterone is also a little like, acts as a buffer to estrogen. So when our progesterone levels are normal we could handle some fluctuations, what we do, monthly fluctuations in estrogen and not feel the effects of that, because we have progesterone there protecting and buffering us. But as progesterone declines we sort of start to feel the full effects of that estrogen rollercoaster. And so you know, moodiness, sleeplessness, that's a combination of lowered progesterone and, you know, fluctuating estrogen, brain fog, yeah, low mood, sleeplessness, fatigue, weight gain, insulin resistance. So it's like a. You don't necessarily get all of those things, but often women sort of, you know, tick about two, three, four of those boxes.

Speaker 1: 8:38

Yes, all the fun things right, and also like shorter cycles, is really common as well, and I'm personally, you know, experiencing those, so periods that are coming more regularly, you know, every 22, 23, 24 days heavier periods, more painful periods. I know, personally I've never had painful periods or even heavy periods, but over the last year or so they've definitely become. You know, I've had the cramping. I'm like, oh, this is period.

Speaker 2: 9:09

Yeah right.

Speaker 1: 9:10

Yeah and yeah, heavier periods and I love what you said about that. You know the estrogen going on a bit of a rollercoaster. When I was researching for the Perry menopause masterclass that I put together, I was actually really surprised to read that estrogen can actually increase by three times. But it is really fluctuating because we think about menopause, as you know, that decline in estrogen, but before that happens the estrogen kind of like you said, goes on that rollercoaster and can actually increase, which you know leads to a lot of the signs and symptoms that are so common in Perry menopause.

Speaker 2: 9:47

Yeah, that's right, and I just wanted to touch on that testing you mentioned with the GP. So I guess, if yeah, it's not all that informative, the GP testing but we can refer to, like we refer for Dutch testing, and that gives us quite a good overview of what the hormones are doing, what pathways they're being metabolised, and particular, like if there's a dominance of some, it doesn't just do estrogen and progesterone but looks at DHEA and androgens and their pathways, so it can give us some real insight into how to use our tools. Like you know, if we need to increase estrogen metabolism or androgen metabolism. You know we can play around with those things. So I just wanted to touch on that.

Speaker 1: 10:44

Yes, I'm glad you brought that up because, yeah, like the regular blood tests from GPs are going to be, as we said, sort of pretty hopeless in this stage. But yeah, there's certainly testing that we can do and that estrogen metabolism and how that's happening through, you know, the various pathways, is such good information for us to have, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, because some people will be metabolising estrogen really well, so those higher levels of estrogen won't necessarily affect them as much because their bodies, you know, detoxifying and metabolising that, whereas other people that have, you know, compromised detox pathways, which can be picked up in things like the Dutch testing, are going to have a harder time. So, yeah, that's really important that you mention that. So let's talk about stress, because I have been sort of sharing, and I think my personal experience as well is that I think rest is the number one thing. That is that is so important in these perimenopause years. Can you explain a little bit about the impact of stress in perimenopause? Yeah, yep.

Speaker 2: 11:52

So we have in our body a system called the HPA axis, which is the hypothalamus, pituitary and adrenal glands. They're connected and they help with our stress regulation and stress response. So when we have a bit of a dysfunction in that axis, that means, yeah, we have a reduced ability to cope with stress. When it's dysregulated, we produce higher amounts of cortisol and adrenaline and those things lead to insomnia, anxiety, fatigue and insulin resistance. So in causes, what causes the HPA axis to become dysregulated? One of them is the lowered progesterone, so that's naturally going to happen, and other things are just like chronic, ongoing stress. So you know, If you've got a stressful job or you're just, you know you're not doing all of those self-care things that help reduce your stress levels staying up late, getting up early, over-exercising, anything that puts stress on your body on an ongoing level. What did you say?

Speaker 1: 13:20

Parenting yeah, parenting Regular life, I mean really like we don't. You know, I think people being affected by stress and having too much stress or not coping well with stress is pretty standard, isn't it? And I think it's in these years that we start. You know, we might be able to power through I think you mentioned that before in our 20s and 30s, but we get to our 40s and this stage where our hormones start to change and we just can't do it anymore. We can't cope with that sort of high-paced lifestyle as well anymore. We certainly feel the effects of that.

Speaker 2: 14:00

Yeah, and I think it's really important to not put it off. I heard a conversation a little while ago about it was a woman my age that I was talking about. Well, in a few years I'll have time to go and look after myself when the kids are sort of more settled, and I know like it can be really hard to carve out that time for yourself. But it's you actually really need to be doing it now and putting those things in place to just be able to switch off and look after yourself, because in a few years, I mean, you're just so not in the habit of doing that anyway and it does take time to train yourself to look after yourself and build in those habits.

Speaker 1: 14:49

That's so true. And we know also that women that go into the perimenopause years and menopausal years with that dysregulated HPA axis you know, those high sort of stress levels generally have a harder time with perimenopause and menopause. So, yeah, it's like I love that you said that it's really important to start now, wherever that might be for people.

Speaker 2: 15:14

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And also one of the things that can disrupt that axis is the circadian rhythm. So not getting enough, you know, good morning light and then overexposure to evening light and like though, you know that evening light it is unavoidable to some extent because we all have electricity. We need to do things at night, but we can minimise that as much as possible. But at the other end of the day, in the morning is probably it will look so important to be exposed to morning light within that first hour of waking, because that directly impacts the pituitary gland through the eyes.

Speaker 1: 16:03

The sunlight. Yes, Such an easy, practical tip like to, you know, head outside within that hour of waking and get that natural exposure to sunlight which helps, you know, regulate that circadian rhythm which is going to help with the stress response, but also really helpful for sleep as well. And that's something else we wanted to talk about today, because you know the disruption to sleep that can happen through this perimenopausal phase like obviously has so many negative impacts on all different aspects of our lives and it leads to more mood issues, more grumpyness, yeah, and all of that sort of thing. So can you explain a bit more about how sleep is impacted during these years and what we can do to sort of support healthy sleep?

Speaker 2: 16:52

Yeah. So I think, yeah, progesterone does help support good sleep. So if you're in your sort of still menstruating years, you might have noticed that you get a little bit of insomnia before your period, like I always have. So that's the natural reduction of progesterone. But if we're sort of having lowered progesterone generally all the time, then we don't have that lovely sort of effect of it. So that's one reason why we might our sleep might be affected. But personally, that's one thing that has really impacted me, like just waking up, like I can go back to sleep pretty well, but I'm just waking up like every two to three hours and, yeah, having a little hot flush, and it's a little. It's disturbing and it's such a change and it's, I feel like it's one of those changes that, yeah, I don't have control over, despite, you know, taking care of myself and you know.

Speaker 1: 17:56

We're taking all the right things, all the things.

Speaker 2: 17:59

Yeah, but yeah, there are lots of things we can do, you know, like taking magnesium herbs to help sort of nourish the nervous system, address stress. So addressing stress during the day will really help your sleep at night. The circadian rhythm that we just talked about will really help your sleep wake cycles as well, so that exposure to light. Exercise, and exercising in the morning is probably better than you know later at night, so that your body's had an opportunity to wind down. My glasses are fogging up because I'm having a little hot flush and, yeah, I lost my train of thought there.

Speaker 1: 18:55

Those hot flushes. I see I haven't had the hot flushes yet. I've had some night sort of sweats premenstrually, but I haven't personally experienced those yet. I'm sure that they will be to come. But yeah, I think the magnesium is such a good point, I think, when it comes to sleep, because magnesium is so helpful for perimenopause or symptoms generally as well. So I think if anyone listening is thinking of taking something or what they can do to support themselves, like number one would be magnesium. It's going to help sleep, it's going to help mood, it's also going to help general hormone balance. I've also been affected by the sleep disruptions, the early morning waking and then struggling to get back to sleep, and I just wanted to share like a little practical tip that has worked really well for me is just like the yoga knee draw, so just in my head, thinking about relaxing all the different parts of my body. So I start with, or just even awareness in those certain parts of the body. So you know, start with little toe, next toe, next toe, next toe, foot ankle, lower leg, knee, you know, and I go quite slowly through my whole body and I find that works really well to help me. I think it gives my mind something to focus on, but it's also having that relaxing effect. But as well, that morning light exposure, I think, is super important.

Speaker 2: 20:30

Yeah, yeah. And if you can combine that with some exercise in the morning, that's really good. I find that the mornings that I go to the gym get up at six. I just am really ready for sleep at night and I have a have a better sleep.

Speaker 1: 20:44

Yeah, definitely, and I do combine those two things. So I do online workouts but I take my laptop outside into a sunny part of the, you know, the garden, and you know I'm doing some exercise and getting that morning light exposure. So you know it's all about, you know, combining habits. Exactly, yes, for sure, all right. So sleep is, you know, is a big one. Let's move on to alcohol Now. Alcohol has, you know, quite an effect during these years and there's lots of reasons why we should think about reducing or eliminating alcohol. So can you talk more about that?

Speaker 2: 21:32

Yeah, there's a few reasons. So I guess in direct, direct relation to sleep. It's pretty well known that alcohol disrupts our sleep cycle. We don't sleep as deeply and we don't get as much restorative sleep. You might fall asleep better initially, but sleep cycles are definitely affected. Alcohol also will go back to the HPA axis. Alcohol also affects that axis directly. So, especially like with perimenopause, that's already been affected and alcohol on top of that will just dysregulate that system even more. So it disrupts it by the chemicals, the neurotransmitters and the neural structure involved in that axis. So that's a couple of really good reasons to eliminate alcohol or really reduce it the limit. There's actually no data on saying that any amount of alcohol is good. That's actually a myth. But one a day is good for you. So zero or up to two alcohol standard drinks a week is probably what you want to go, which is really low. And have you poured yourself a glass of wine? That's a standard. It's like 90 mils. I was reading a bottle the other day of red wine and I poured 90 mils and I'm like that is one standard drink. It's a mouthful basically. Yeah, well, maybe not quite. So it's not much and if, like, I think that would probably be a good place to start. If you were curious about your alcohol consumption, just work out how much you are actually drinking and, yeah, just have a think about that just as a starting point, because you might be drinking like three to four standard drinks, or five, when you're actually thinking you're only having one to three, and that's quite a big difference in terms of impact on your body.

Speaker 1: 24:03

Yeah, definitely, and I was reading something the other day. Obviously alcohol initially does make us feel good. It can help us, make us feel relaxed or more social or whatever it might be. But something that really hit home for me when I was reading something the other day was alcohol does improve or increase those feel good neurotransmitters initially, but only for about 20 to 30 minutes and then we actually have negative effects on those neurotransmitters for hours afterwards. So that was a really good motivator. Because, I will be transparent, I'm not perfect with you know I do like a glass of wine and I think you know I probably would benefit from cutting it out altogether. But yeah, that really hit home in terms of like, do I really want that? You know that 10 minute or 20 minute or 30 minute, you know feel good for two, three hours of the negative impact that it's going to have.

Speaker 2: 25:06

Yeah, that's right, and I think a lot of people you know they yeah drink it to feel good, get that relaxation address, sort of low mood or anxiety, and it helps them feel good. But yeah, it causes the after effect is actually more anxiety. And then so we can go on that cycle of treating our anxiety with alcohol, which is actually causing more anxiety, and just get into that cycle.

Speaker 1: 25:33

And it affects our sleep in a negative way as well and our mood in a negative way. So again, you know, short term maybe we feel better, but you know, the next day, even after just one or two glasses, our mood is probably suffering because of that.

Speaker 2: 25:48

Yeah, absolutely. And then that comes back to that, I guess self care and habit forming, Like what can we do that gives us a sense of relaxation at the end of the week or whenever you sort of reaching for that alcohol, so substituting something in that's positive but also helps you feel relaxed? I've got a few ideas, but share them.

Speaker 1: 26:16

Share them. I think it's really because I think a lot of the time alcohol does just become a habit For me. You know it. Does you automatically open that bottle of wine on a Friday night or whatever, without even really thinking about it? So it is. It does come back to that habit change yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:35

I love having a sauna and we've got one at our leisure center and I don't always go on a Friday, but that's a bit of a circuit break for me because it always I feel like it has a similar effect but much more nourishing effect. I feel very relaxed after having a sauna A hot bath with magnesium salts would probably help me as well and then I guess, practically drink wise, having something that maybe is a bit celebratory and still nice, you know, like a fizzy, a drink, or a kombucha, or a water café or something you know that you can have as a substitute that feels nice.

Speaker 1: 27:21

There's so many options these days as well isn't there, even if we want to go, for you know the non-alcoholic wine or non-alcoholic gin, but, yeah, kombucha or something like that in a nice white wine glass is, you know, a beautiful sort of swap. And I love that sauna idea, yeah. And for me, you know that bath. So we want to be switching. You know, we don't want to be feeling deprived, because our healthy habits are never going to last if we're feeling like, god, I've got to cut out the wine and that sort of thing. So we want to be rewarding ourselves in a different way when we're trying to change habits as well. And yeah, I love the bath idea. That's definitely one for me as well. One I find really good as well is just a bolster, like a yoga bolster. I have one in my bedroom and just laying back over that and focusing on my breathing, it's something really simple that I can do at home, like I don't even have to go anywhere to do that. And another one for me is, you know, a walk in nature. Lucky to have some really beautiful natural places around me, which I think most people in Australia probably have, even if you live in a city. So I feel like that, you know, exposure to nature and fresh air Definitely Is a big one as well.

Speaker 2: 28:43

Yeah, and I think with habits, I know what always works for me is trying to put something in first before taking something out. I love that I often feel tense around the idea of restriction and I have to take this out, or I have to reduce it, or and so information as well helps me to like knowing you know what's happening in my body, or like how many drinks. That is, like I said before, working out how many standard drinks you're actually having and then adding something in to your daily routine or your Friday evening as a substitute, rather than feeling like you've got to take something away Definitely, and that's really just going to help in the moment as well.

Speaker 1: 29:34

Isn't it Like if you've got somewhere to go that you can look forward to changing that sort of routine really helps as well, because we do. We get in those habitual sort of routines, and that idea of habit stacking, I think, is a good one to talk a bit about as well. So when you're trying to bring in a new healthy habit, adding it to something that you're already sort of doing yeah, so, for example, if you're trying to remember to take your magnesium every day, you know just making sure that that magnesium is with your, you know your herbal teas that you might drink at night so that you can. You know, so that's already a habit that you're drinking a herbal tea or having breakfast, so you can add that in there. I think that can really help with changing habits as well.

Speaker 2: 30:32

Definitely and, I guess, shifting that your mindset as well, from I'm not, you know, necessarily taking something out at the moment, I'm just changing perhaps the time of day or I'm going to substitute something else In that time, I've recently switched my coffee drinking to. I was in a habit, have been for a while, of having one waking up and look forward to it before I go to bed at night, and I just switched, doing that because of, like, the circadian rhythms and cortisol. So I've been doing it just for a week and a half and you know, when I go to the gym as well, I have one with Pete in the morning and before we go. So this morning was the first time we didn't have one together and we just went to the gym and it was fine, it was good Still having it when I, you know, have breakfast and when I get home. So I'm not saying no, but I'm just kind of playing around with it to help my body cope a bit better with it and I love that and that's a really another really good example of not necessarily taking it out altogether.

Speaker 1: 31:44

But you know, with coffee in the morning, like if you're drinking coffee on an empty stomach, that is not going to be great for you know, your blood sugar regulation or your stress response, your cortisol, which are all the things that we've sort of been talking about. So, just switching that morning coffee to have like later on with your breakfast, you're still having it, but it's going to make, you know, a really big difference. Yeah, definitely. Anything else you wanted to share on habit change, oh, I think that's.

Speaker 2: 32:15

I think that's yeah, I think, just starting really simple. I think it's easy to just get caught up in that got to change this, I've got to change that, and then that creates stress and then if we don't do it, we feel like we failed. But you know, try moving things around and sort of adding some nourishing things in before you feel like you've got to remove too much I love that one and not expecting too much of yourself either.

Speaker 1: 32:43

Like, for example, you know we've talked a little bit about how beneficial exercise can be and so if you're not an exercise, or and you haven't regularly exercised, to set yourself a goal, to now exercise five times a week and go to the gym for an hour every morning, like it's probably not going to last, you know. So making the habit changes that you are looking at enjoyable and realistic, so you get this sense of accomplishment and then you can kind of go that next step. So that's right. Even if it's just like OK, I'm just going to commit to going for a five minute walk and then it will be five minutes back, so you're getting a 10 minute walk every day. You know it's not going to meet the recommended amount of exercise, but it's a great start and it's got you going to be much more likely to be able to stick to that. And generally, once you get going and you go for five minutes, you're probably going to go for a bit longer because it feels good. Yeah, I mean, I love my walks. I do a walk nearly every afternoon when I finish work. I do a work online workout in the morning and then my walk in the afternoon is like the full stop on the end of my work day and I just look forward to them so much. I, you know, chat with friends or listen to a podcast or try and also do some of it, at least just quiet and not take my phone sometimes. But yeah, even you know having a podcast that you're really into or an audio book, so then you look forward to going for that walk. To have a listen can be helpful as well.

Speaker 2: 34:20

Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1: 34:22

Oh, there's so much we could talk about here. But that was, like you know, a really good start. I think we talked about a lot of really important things ways to support sleep. You know, magnesium If you're not already taking it is a really good one to be to start with, for sure. There's so much else we can offer as well. If you're a club member, you do have access to our Perry menopause masterclass and cheat sheet that goes into, you know, more detail and you know specific supplements we recommend and that sort of thing. If you're not a club member, we'll pop a link so that you can get on the waitlist below in the show notes of this episode, and also there's the option to be able to book an appointment with you, sarah. So, yeah, we'll pop the link to book an appointment with Sarah below as well, because, as you can hear, she's got a personal experience with this stage of life and there's also, you know, really knowledgeable practitioner, and I know that you really enjoy supporting mums through this stage as well.

Speaker 2: 35:28

Yeah, I do, yeah, I really do yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:30

Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom with us.

Speaker 2: 35:35

It's been a great chat. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1: 35:38

And just before we go, I'd love for you to reach out to me on Instagram over at Natural Superkids, and let me know what habit you are going to change or add in or tweak Based on what we've talked about in this episode. I'd love to hear from you there. Thanks so much, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Head on over to our website, naturalsuperkidscom, for the show notes for this episode, as well as a whole heap of inspiration to help you raise healthy and happy kids. I'll see you next week.