Ever wondered if your therapist or coach truly understands your dilemma, or are they simply offering superficial solutions? Join us, Dr. Taylor Hartman and Cat Larsen, as we delve into the world of informed decision making in therapy. This episode unravels a real-life situation of a woman struggling with intimacy issues, revealing the dangers of superficial fixes, and the powerful impact of uncovering the underlying truth. We challenge therapists and coaches to be responsible for the advice they give, and stress the importance of not simply treating the symptoms but uncovering the root cause.
We shift gears to explore personal ownership and the fear of change that often paralyzes us in relationships. Emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and understanding the consequences of our decisions, we discuss how the desire for more in a relationship can create feelings of unease and obligation. Feeling like ‘the problem’ often stems from a fear of change and a reluctance to take charge. We conclude with a thought-provoking discussion on congruence, and the crucial elements to consider when assessing legitimacy. Tune in for a compelling exploration of therapy, personal responsibility, and the power of informed decision-making.
Take the Personality and Character Profiles at TaylorHartman.com.
Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.
Ever wondered if your therapist or coach truly understands your dilemma, or are they simply offering superficial solutions? Join us, Dr. Taylor Hartman and Cat Larsen, as we delve into the world of informed decision making in therapy. This episode unravels a real-life situation of a woman struggling with intimacy issues, revealing the dangers of superficial fixes, and the powerful impact of uncovering the underlying truth. We challenge therapists and coaches to be responsible for the advice they give, and stress the importance of not simply treating the symptoms but uncovering the root cause.
We shift gears to explore personal ownership and the fear of change that often paralyzes us in relationships. Emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and understanding the consequences of our decisions, we discuss how the desire for more in a relationship can create feelings of unease and obligation. Feeling like ‘the problem’ often stems from a fear of change and a reluctance to take charge. We conclude with a thought-provoking discussion on congruence, and the crucial elements to consider when assessing legitimacy. Tune in for a compelling exploration of therapy, personal responsibility, and the power of informed decision-making.
Take the Personality and Character Profiles at TaylorHartman.com.
Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.
Good morning listeners. This is Dr Taylor Hartman, with Very Best of Living. I'm with my good friend Kat Larson. How are you, Kat?
Cat Larsen:I'm good you make me smile when you go.
taylor hartman:I always love that concept, like good morning Vietnam, robin Williams.
Cat Larsen:Oh my gosh.
taylor hartman:Oh, it was the best, just excited and energy and I hope our listeners feel energy when we're together. I mean, I feel it with you, kat. It's just a fun experience between Richie, you and I. It's just a great and fun. A fun team to work with is what I think.
Cat Larsen:Yeah, yeah, richie's our producer, so he's he's always great in getting us. I mean, he always has five stories before we start. That gets us rolling on the floor with laughter. Yeah, that's fun.
taylor hartman:Well, I appreciate that and it's nice to be on with you. We have kind of a lot of you know. Have you ever like eaten like stew? Like they put everything together it wasn't actually eaten and they make this great stew out of it? Have you ever done that before in your life?
Cat Larsen:Yes, I grew up in. Friday night was the week leftovers thrown in a pot with some you know sauce over it.
taylor hartman:Yes, oh my gosh you and I are raised the same way, so but the reality is, today is a little bit of that. There's some, just some, lingering questions. People have asked you it a few, and asked me as well, and I'd like to kind of lead with that today. Okay, give our listeners a potpourri of good mental health questions.
Cat Larsen:Great Great.
taylor hartman:Did you want to start or yeah?
Cat Larsen:Yeah, I. I was listening to an interview and the the woman was talking about she had been to a therapist and she was talking about the fact that she was having a hard time in her relationship with her husband. And it was around. You know their, their sexual life, their sex life, and the therapist gave her the advice to just do something else. So you don't have to do that, right.
taylor hartman:Yes, which really, which really like oral sex or something limited, not as connected.
Cat Larsen:Exactly Like, yeah, exactly Like, just do something different that isn't as intimate as actual sex, that but but it would, you know, get the job done. And and I just started thinking about us and you and you in therapy and I'm and me in coaching, I'm on your coach, I'm on your coaching staff as our responsibility to our beautiful clients and for people listening to us to not just, you know, take it and go. Okay, I'm going to do that because it's so easy to take direction from, from the authority figure in that relationship, Correct?
Cat Larsen:And my agenda cannot be, or your agenda cannot be, the person's agenda.
taylor hartman:That's correct. So I just would love for you to talk.
Cat Larsen:Yeah, I'd love for you to talk about how how we, how you do that differently and what you've taught us that are, on your staff, different, and how we go after this.
taylor hartman:It's a great question. I'm somewhat disappointed in many therapists and coaches that exist. There are also excellent people that are doing excellent work, but there are too many who really don't understand truth. They don't understand mental, emotional, spiritual truth and so they take a small t truth that they think is good and they impose that as though it's a capital t truth and true for everybody. And so if you are needy, uh, looking for help and advice, you're vulnerable to saying, well, I don't have the answer, so I'll try that. That means it makes sense.
taylor hartman:And I still remember this time that there was a talk show host, very popular, popular woman, uh, in LA, and a woman came on the line and said you recommended that I not have a child, that I pursue my business career, and I am now 50 and I have such regret I'm making that choice. I really, really wish I had not taken your advice. And the response she got from this talk show coach therapist was well, it was your decision, so at the end of you did what you wanted to do, cold, detached, no ownership at all, in that she had actually said that I would recommend you do the business approach to life rather than a child. So what the difference in that, for example, is, if I had been talking to that woman, I would say tell me why that's an issue for you. Tell me why you're concerned about being a parent and or being a business success. What are you looking for? What means something to you? You make the decision, but I want you to figure it out.
taylor hartman:What is the real truth here? Is it a fear-based agenda that you have going on? Is it a trauma-based agenda? Is it a love-based, healthy, proactive-based agenda? So anytime I work with somebody, I'm not the end-all. The truth is the end-all, and then their application of that ultimately is what makes the decision. For example, this woman who was told we'll just have oral sex instead of real sex with your husband. What they're doing is they're hacking at the branches. They're trying to find a solution that satisfies a higher level, superficial solution Instead of really getting at the core, which is why do you not want to be intimate with your husband, not just sexually, but emotionally? What's going on with that? And it reminds me of this client that I have who she literally went to sex therapy for two years and still prefers a dildo to her husband.
taylor hartman:I'm like wait, what are you in therapy for? It's two years to not connect with him. I'm not sure I understand that, and I think too many coaches and therapists give people an out, which may feel good in the moment because they don't make them look at the real truth, but it does not help them get better. It does not take them from where they are to a better place. So what you asked is a great question. What I do, and what my coaches are taught to do, is you base it on truth, on what's legitimate, and then you apply that truth to their agenda, like their rationale for why they're thinking what they're doing, and then, at the end of the day, it's their call. I never want to be the one that gave them false advice that comes back to haunt them. I want them to know why I believe what you're doing is false-based or truth-based, and then you could act on it, depending on what you want to do.
Cat Larsen:And you said three things. I think it was like if it's fear-based or love-based, or what was the other thing you said?
taylor hartman:Well, I know I don't remember Fear-based, love-based, depending on the agenda, selfish, selfless Right.
Cat Larsen:So if I'm looking, at the business versus child conversation and I say I don't know what to do. Taylor, I don't know what to do. I don't know whether to blow up this business that's starting to go or stop and have a child. Right now I'm stuck. Help me. What would you say to me?
taylor hartman:OK, when were you not stuck? Was there a time in your life when you knew you wanted to be business not mom, or mom not business? Was there a time or both?
Cat Larsen:I've always wanted to do both, but now my business is taking off and it just doesn't seem fair to have a kid in all this Plus, how am I going to have time to do all that?
taylor hartman:OK. So I have to ask you now what means the most to you? You tell me in terms of your life. Say, let's say, you're 35. And when you're 70, I want to know what will mean the most to you a business that thrived or a child that you grew? What matters to you?
Cat Larsen:How do I know that when I'm 70?
taylor hartman:No, I want you to think right now, 35 years from now, what will I want most in my quiver? A connection to an individual that I raised, raised from the womb, or a business that I grew and developed? I want you to do that work, that's your responsibility, because it's your life.
Cat Larsen:I see what you're doing.
taylor hartman:So let's say you say, okay, I'll think about that. Then I would go further and I would say, okay. So why is it you have to choose between the two of them? Are you committed to a high level of business that maybe you could do less of and still be successful and have a child? Or are you thinking that, no, if I'm gonna be a mom, I wanna be a full-time mom. So I'm looking to see what their perception is of business and parenting, right. And then I would say to them what's pushing your button right now? Is it the fact that you're getting older and you have to make that decision? Is it maybe you're thinking about your own childhood? What's causing you to cause this consternation in your life?
Cat Larsen:Boy, that's great.
taylor hartman:It's talking it through with the person and giving them a safe place to really process what is going on and where's it coming from. And then you're always looking for the motive behind it. Always. If the motive, for example, is you're getting pressure from their parents to provide a grandchild, that's a very different motive. Then I've always wanted to take care of someone or whatever it might be. I mean and I think your point was really really good For example, women that go into the business world.
taylor hartman:I mean they have a much harder challenge than men do. Nobody ever said to me well, shouldn't you have stayed home more?
Cat Larsen:No ever.
taylor hartman:But a woman always has to face that reality. And I've had women say to me I'm really not nurturing, that's not my nature. I'm a better mom by not being home all the time. And I have other women say to me I can't do it that way. I need to be hands on or not at all. So everyone's very different, so I do have to work within their realm of skillset and desires and all that. But there's still truth. Truth is in the motive. What's the real motive behind what's going on here?
Cat Larsen:When you do so like if you're marriage counseling. I also think that, like the marriage counselor umbrella is, the goal is to keep the marriage together. Do you ever think that weighs in with therapists? Like you know, stay together, and maybe that's why that person was telling you know the woman to well. If you can't do that, do something else.
taylor hartman:You know it's to stay together.
Cat Larsen:Do you think that's a driving force in the?
taylor hartman:industry. That's so good, it's such a great point. I love that and let me just address it. I have done this for 50 years and the goal I always have is for people to get clean. So I will always say give us six months of really working on you and doing the right thing for the right reason in the relationship and then, when you have done that and it's not right for you, there's no energy there, the other party is not participating. Then you can make the choice and you'll leave the relationship clean and that will free you then to have a good experience going forward in your life.
Cat Larsen:Mm-hmm.
taylor hartman:If, however, you're not taking any ownership for what happened with you in the relationship Like you've allowed things to go on too long and you don't want to own that, or you also have been very selfish or Demanding or whatever else if you can't see your role, then you'll take that inadequacy into the next phase of your life and have the same problem again. So I'm not opposed to divorce them. There are people who don't belong together.
taylor hartman:Mm-hmm but the reason they're divorcing is much more important to me than divorcing like. I want to know what's going on here, and often I find that the reason they got together in the first place was a viable reason and Perhaps it's best to put it back together and figure it out and learn to love each other and be together. On the other hand, I have always discovered there are certain people that are not going to make it work, work right, they're not gonna be happy, it's not gonna succeed. And then I'm very happy to say to them you know what. You've done your work. You're not being accommodated in the relationship. If you feel like you need a better shot at a different life than you need to go and it's always up board. I have never done something like behind a spouse's back. I've always wanted them to know here's what's happening, here's why I'm making the recommendation I am and here's what you're doing or not doing. That facilitates that for me always Straight up.
Cat Larsen:Taylor, do you when you you said something that that the first six months is that you know getting yourself if we use the Hartman system, get yourself, get truth, get over yourself, get others that get self and get truth, peace. If, yeah, somebody's just not taking that responsibility, is that what you're saying? Like people just don't take responsibility, so after six months it's like that's not gonna happen, right?
taylor hartman:right. You're a hundred percent true. If I'm not willing to own my part, I'm not doing my work and I'm not gonna get better by any means. I'm just looking for an easy out and typically those people blame like I'm blaming the spouse they're not loving, by the way. They're much more self-serving and they will take that into the next area of their life. But I want people to know and own what their role is in the relationship. That's my goal and hopefully they'll get cleaned up and get happy. And I mean I have a whole lot of success stories where people have done that and I absolutely have stories where their best choice was to divorce. Move on, you know being raised a Catholic.
Cat Larsen:it's interesting I went through divorce and it's interesting you know the conversations that we had around this with my parents, me and my parents around why to stay married, and, and, and. That was hard. That was really hard because I bet I was raised with that. I mean very black and white, wrong and right.
Cat Larsen:You just didn't do it in you know I mean, and it was, it was quite a while. I'm as like the early 90s and it's. Things have changed a little bit between now and then. But you know those hard Catholics, they're like you. Just didn't get divorced, you know, did not do it, nope, and you're wrong for doing it.
taylor hartman:You're the bad person. Yep, yeah, you're the problem You're the problem such a great point and you had to go against that norm to make the best decision of your life. Like honestly, yeah, you said that we're both much happier, yep, and we have different relationships and they're better.
Cat Larsen:Yes.
taylor hartman:I mean, that's what's so beautiful about what happened with you guys. But you had to take you. I remember how you had to actually be the Instigator, the promoter, the and I and I feel bad for people that are in a relationship where they're not getting any help from the spouse. They have to make this decision Basically on their own. That's not an easy place to be. Well.
Cat Larsen:The other thing is is like when you want more Overall in a relationship Then you become the instigator and then then it all, you almost automatically, by default, become the problem, exactly because you want more. And I remember it's like me having got these conversations, you know, every night. Yeah o'clock in the morning.
taylor hartman:Can I just be happy with this? Can I be happy? Yes, what's wrong with me? I'm the problem.
Cat Larsen:I'm the price me, I'm the problem.
taylor hartman:Well, and you know it's funny about that cat. It's what we know, that's true. So, no, I was so proud of you because I don't think it's an easy thing to have done, and I do think you're right. Most people say you know what I maybe I'm over exaggerating, maybe I should be okay. Yes, and almost always they know in their heart it's wrong. Almost always in their gut they're like I don't feel okay about this. But but many stay, many put up with it and they're not happy and then and they won't be happy it's not gonna happen.
Cat Larsen:I kept thinking I'm broken. The reason I'm not happy is because I'm broken Wow.
taylor hartman:It's so good I have a problem.
Cat Larsen:I have a problem inside of me. I'm not put together right. Work harder, work harder, work harder.
taylor hartman:And you know, and you find all the flaws in you. Oh yes, oh yes, oh my gosh, and they keep poked like they can poke those. Lots of people can say, well, cat, you know, I've noticed this about you, or on and on and on, and maybe you just relax that you'd be okay in this relationship and he loves you so much like, what more do you want in life? Or whatever right.
Cat Larsen:They'll on the head and then it's like you know when they're standing there looking at you. God bless, God bless him. He's there standing there looking at you going, but I love you.
taylor hartman:I'm good oh my gosh Like a deer in headlights, like why is this happening? I'm so happy, I'm so satisfied. Yes, I'm sorry, but I hope that our audience is listening and understanding. Ultimately, you are responsible for your life.
Cat Larsen:Mm-hmm.
taylor hartman:And honestly, you stepped up and made your life legitimate. That's what you did and and it's not an easy process and people. What frustrates me is there are people who are trying to to abide by truth, clean motives, do the right thing, and they are the ones that get bullied and badgered Repeatedly.
taylor hartman:I think, what client we saw. They, there's such a great couple and he just didn't grow at all and he was very fear-based and very self obsessed with doing his own stuff. And his wife finally said I, I want more as long as I got. It was her head was down, working hard, just like him. And once she got her head out of that grind and stopped working there, she said I, I saw how empty I was. This is not okay with me. And she had been for years asking for more. Now that she knew she could actually achieve more, she said I can't do this anymore and had the end of the relationship. Oh my, so I do.
taylor hartman:I hope our listeners that are listening realize you have to work at loving and living every single day in a relationship, looking for ways to make the person feel like Connected and cared about, and that includes yourself. And so when somebody is an addict and cheating on you or not Committed to you, you have every right and responsibilities. Say what do I need to do to get clean of this situation? And Then whatever is gonna come is gonna come. I'm a big advocate of agency cat.
taylor hartman:I think people don't realize how much responsibility comes with being healthy. But you have to make choices in life and whatever those choices are good or bad, whatever they're on you to make, I think our job as coaches and therapists is to help guide people so they feel legit, like they really come to terms with you know what this is, what I'm gonna do, this feels right to me and then maybe help them with steps they can take. But I always feel like I think about clients I worked with the years like a woman getting literally up in the middle of the night and going having sex outside of the marriage and and just find it and I was like, okay, so you need to know that is not clean, that is not going to enhance the quality of your life. But you have to choose what you're going to do. Well, I'm just not ready to give it up.
taylor hartman:Okay, just understand the consequences. That's fine, that's your call. But I want you to know the consequences. I would not sit back, go. Well, you know what that sounds like. Fun, I think it's good if you found an alternative to being able to stay in the marriage. That probably makes sense to me, I mean. But if someone chooses to do that. I will say to them you are cheating your husband and you're cheating yourself and you're cheating the other man You're having sex with. Just so you know that and if that's okay with you, just draw that line and own it in your life.
Cat Larsen:When you say legitimacy, can you give the the bullet points that you line up to see if somebody's legitimate? I know we talked about this, but I just want to bring it back up.
taylor hartman:Well, let's, let's go with congruence, okay. For example, you make a choice to marry someone. If you sign that commitment, then it's not legitimate to break the covenant with that person and, behind the back, that's not legitimate. If you're a drug addict and you're lying about where you're stealing money from, that is not legitimate. That is self-serving at the expense of another party, including yourself, for that matter. So legitimate is honest, congruent, direct, mm-hmm. That's justifications going on right.
taylor hartman:I had a conversation with a guy the other night I that I adore, I mean I love this man. He is so, so, quality, and he's not happy in his life and and with his marriage and she wants him and she wants him to want her. And I said, buddy, you have got to step up and commit to caring. And then if by doing that, you find it really, really isn't what you want to do, I can live with that, but you can't just kind of fade away and stay in limbo. In fact, I said to him I have more problems with people in limbo than people who hate. I have more problem with that Cause. I can't respect it.
taylor hartman:I just don't understand why you would not take ownership for choosing to love, for choosing to give back for choosing to change and then ultimately it frees you. If by doing that it does not meet your need, it doesn't help the relationship whatever. You have many, many alternative, but if you don't ever step up and own that and face it, you'll always be a coward. So I mean, that's that's. You know it's hard about that for me, yeah, is it? Mental health good, healthy mental health, emotional health, spiritual health is tied to laws and rules that many people don't want to adhere to. It's funny. If I need to like build some my biceps, there are only certain things I can do.
taylor hartman:I have to do those things, like I have to lift weights, I have to do that and nobody says you know what I'm just gonna do leg exercises and I think my biceps will come along. Nobody ever said yeah, you're probably right, that's good thing to do. But in mental, spiritual, emotional health, people literally make suggestions that are completely disconnected to developing the skill or the help that you need, and yet people buy it like they believe it. I'm like why are we so clear on physical health but not so clear mental, emotional, spiritual?
Cat Larsen:Why is that? Why do you think?
taylor hartman:For it's hard. I think it's harder. Number one Sure, it's much, much harder. Sure. And number two I think people are twisted Like. They create in their mind reasons why they think it's okay for them to misbehave and by misbehaving they continue to justify that by aligning with irrational thinking. Or other people are doing it, so why not? Or I deserve to, because I've been wronged. Or the twisted irrational thinking I see people go through on a regular basis is it's almost overwhelming, because they will never get better if they don't commit to the laws of good mental, emotional, spiritual help Like.
taylor hartman:I was talking to a guy the other day who was so great, very rad, very strong and old kind of guy and he was going off on his daughter. He was so mad he couldn't speak, so mad he actually left the house and stayed away for the night and he came back and he's yelling like screaming at this daughter. She was part and parcel of the problem.
Cat Larsen:I'm not saying she wasn't.
taylor hartman:But he's a grown man and he was so great he goes. I have got to learn to manage my emotions. I can't expect her to do something I'm not willing to do and I'm like 28 years old, that's not okay. I loved his humility. He went back and apologized, said I'm wrong, he goes. I know, but I was out of line, daddy, he goes. It doesn't matter. What you did is not what gave me license to do what I did. I need to work on managing my emotions and I was like welcome to the positive path of good mental health, good for you, like learning to manage who you are. And you know, kat, we've talked about this before. It sits in the. You know what's emotional maturity and one of those is managing your emotion, right.
Cat Larsen:It's funny, as we're talking about the. You know that's like obvious. You know, go and work your leg muscles and think you're you know how to grow things, how to, how to get definition or how to how to change your body is.
Cat Larsen:I'm wondering if it's the same concept, Because when you lift weights to see a difference to actually in your body, you have to continually increase the weight to failure. You have to get to where you're lifting a weight till failure and then you start seeing because I can, I can lift, you know it will, it will do something for me. But if I want to see a bicep grow, I have to, like, stress it and and next time, if I do 25, next time I do, you know, I in two weeks, then I try 30 and I go to failure.
Cat Larsen:And then I next. And so I'm just I'm wondering if in this Paco, so great you know guy, you know he's like our, he's like our research victim.
taylor hartman:He's my research.
Cat Larsen:He's like do we have you know he? He does say things and I really have to watch myself because I mean I can pick it so many things and it's like is this ever ending.
Cat Larsen:And I say well, I don't know if it is. I mean, I don't want it to feel like, oh my gosh, we're working every day at something. But when something comes up, I do point it out for us, and it's an interesting question, because it feels like we're lifting heavier weights now in our relationship Well, and you, honestly, have never stopped valuing that. No.
taylor hartman:But I will say in Paco's defense that there are people who are more driven for the heavier weights and others are. Can we just maintain?
Cat Larsen:Yes.
taylor hartman:Are we good with that. So it's harder when you're with someone like you, yes, who is not satisfied. No, I want to keep growing. I like what I'm learning. I like what I'm discovering because of my growth. I do think that's remarkable that you have that, and I think in many ways he gains from being with someone like you, who will push you further. But it's still harder for him.
Cat Larsen:It's not that he's, there's nothing wrong with him. It's just that what happens to us together it's not like I'm looking at him going, I'm trying to fix you. It's like our relationship is getting to the next level because both of the stuff I have to do too.
taylor hartman:Right, no, but you're committed to that process and I actually love that, by the way, Because I think you'll be happier in life, because you're actually growing, as opposed to just sitting just allowing. I think it's important for our listeners to think am I? In fact? It's something you might want to consider. I love the idea of the post-it note.
taylor hartman:It's like just just for a week, put a post-it note somewhere where you're going to see it every day, with just a phrase or a word, and see what it does for you. If you could just focus on like, for example, how did I make life more beautiful today? Like that's all you're, that's your post-it note, that's it. All I'm asking is for one week, put that up there and see if it enhances the quality of your life. So you and I were talking about today, about truth and how we use that in coaching and therapy. I think it'd be really cool for our listeners to apply that principle to their own life and look at a truth they want to embrace. And I agree with you, by the way, if our listener fails on a day, it's not the end of the world. Okay, you're trying a heavier weight.
Cat Larsen:You're learning something harder and that's.
taylor hartman:That's not a problem. The problem, I think, is if you get discouraged, you beat yourself up. I'm never going to be good enough. You take a negative attitude when the process of getting fit spiritually, emotionally and mentally requires failure. It requires trying new stretches that you're not used to.
Cat Larsen:Yes.
taylor hartman:Well, we got a quick for today. Okay, thank you. As always, listeners, we love you and, by the way, we really appreciate the message you send in. We're going to talk about a couple of those questions on our next podcast, oh, that sounds fun. Thanks for today Great experience.
Cat Larsen:Love you guys. Bye, bye.