Very Best of Living
Dr. Taylor Hartman, relationship expert and Psychologist, discusses key insights that he has made over his professional career on what makes successful relationships. His work The Color Code now called the People Code is a powerful agent for positive healthy relationships both personal and professional.
Very Best of Living
From Gaslighting to Control: A Narcissist's Playbook
Get ready to unravel the enigma of narcissism on this episode of the Very Best of Living Podcast! Join me, your host Dr. Taylor Hartman, along with my incredible friend Cat Larson, as we dive deep into understanding and dealing with narcissists. We'll peel back the layers to distinguish between those with narcissistic tendencies and full-blown narcissists, uncovering the deep insecurities that fuel their behavior. From manipulative tactics to the origins of narcissism, we leave no stone unturned. Plus, we'll share practical advice on handling narcissists and even explore the fascinating portrayal of anxiety in movies. Trust me, you won't want to miss this eye-opening and thought-provoking conversation!
In our captivating discussion, we'll expose the intricate dynamics of dealing with narcissistic manipulation. Brace yourself for jaw-dropping revelations as we reveal how narcissists play the victim, engage in gaslighting, and deflect criticism to maintain control. We'll also explore the role of societal influences, especially parenting, in shaping narcissistic traits. Get ready for some powerful insights that will empower you to set firm values and expectations for yourself and your children. And as a special treat, we'll share exciting news about upcoming projects, including a new book on couples and the revolutionary Hartman color code. So, buckle up and get ready to deep dive into the world of narcissism with us! It's going to be an extraordinary journey!
Take the Personality and Character Profiles at TaylorHartman.com.
Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.
Hello listeners of Very Best of Living Podcast. This is Dr Taylor Hartman. I'm with my good friend Kat Larson. Hello Kat.
Speaker 1:Good morning, afternoon and good night.
Speaker 2:Yes, wherever you are and whatever you're doing, we're with you and we're happy to be back with you again. So today we have a very interesting topic that I am fascinated by. It's one of the more deadly psychological illnesses that people have and it has taken, unfortunately, a very bitter turn in our society because people are using it very freely and probably inappropriately many times, but when it is accurate it is deadly, and that is called narcissism. Narcissism is one of the illnesses about certain people that have it. I'm very guarded about using that. It's like as a therapist, I don't drink and so I am actually often giving people a pass on drinking and they'll call me out. They'll say no, no, no, because you don't. You don't realize the damage it can be doing. You should hold me more accountable. I still feel kind of the same way about narcissism. Like I've been so unhappy about everybody calling everybody else a narcissist. Everybody in the divorces go, oh, he was a narcissist. I'm like well, wait a minute, they're not all narcissists. That's not true. So just for our listeners, I want to make this very clear what defines a true narcissist? There is a continuum, and so some people have narcissistic tendencies, but that doesn't mean they're a narcissist, and then there are people who are full-blown narcissists.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, having said that, I want to talk about who they are and how you deal with them and what they do to you and how you stop them from doing that to you. That's what I want to talk about today. Let's start with the very beginning. So narcissists are very insecure people and they spend their entire life trying to become secure with all the wrong ways. Like everything they do to become more secure is damaging and damning and blocking and selfish, a hundred percent. There's never anything in it that is going to be redemption for others or for themselves, sadly. So traits that go with being a narcissist are always tied to insecurity, but they're so insecure that it's not just a selfish person.
Speaker 2:There are selfish people. Reds are selfish by nature. Yellows are self-serving individuals by nature, so you might think for a while they must be narcissists. No, I mean, any color can be a narcissist. Yellows and reds are more likely to be than blues or whites, but blue Hitler was a classic narcissist, so every color can be a narcissist, but more likely we judge people that are red as narcissists only because they're selfish, and that's not accurate.
Speaker 2:So a narcissist everything they do is to win at your expense. Everything they do like if they tell you you don't dress right, you don, you don't walk right, you're the problem. They're always trying to put you down so they can win. They'll take advantage of anything they can to make you feel less than so. They are more than is the bottom line, whereas someone who is selfish they may want to win, but not necessarily your expense. So a narcissist always has that deeply embedded need to make you lose, to put you down right. It's always only about them. For a narcissist, it is only about them. Their agenda in life is to get what their needs are met. And how they get them met, dirty, whatever, doesn't matter. They're going to do that.
Speaker 2:So they are verbally, sexually, physically abusive, typically towards others, and they always blame, always, every single time. They are blaming others for why life doesn't work. Everything that goes wrong in the relationship is someone else's fault. I wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have hit you, kat, but you were too loud or you know how you annoy me so, much's why I hit you. So it's not I hit you and I own that it's. I did it because you are that way. So if someone is prone to self-blame or guilt. They are easily manipulated by a narcissist. Very easily, because the person starts thinking, well, I guess I could have. I really was kind of loud or I really was not easy to raise or whatever they might use as an excuse for why they think they may be the reason, and narcissism plays on that.
Speaker 1:How do you get to narcissism? I mean, what happens? Is it a childhood thing? Is it a born thing?
Speaker 2:Is it a yeah, I don't, I don't. I wouldn't say you're born narcissistic, but I would say you obviously have tendencies that direction and then things happen to you that in a way fuel that and make it worse. Obviously you can become more dysfunctional in life or more functional, and narcissists always become more dysfunctional. And then when they see that it works, like they gain power over others by doing that, they model it, they do more of it. There are also people who they see it in others, like many narcissists have seen it in their parents. They've lived with that. Right Now it doesn't necessarily mean that's why you are one, but I've seen that many narcissists can trace their narcissism to their upbringing as well. And then I also have people just the opposite, like they were raised by a narcissist and that's the last place they would go. They are the opposite of that.
Speaker 1:Can you get over it?
Speaker 2:I have never seen a narcissist heal. Why? Why do you think that is? The only example I can give is when I deal with someone who is a pedophile. I have never seen them cured, ever. Oh, it doesn't happen. And so with narcissists and I'm talking, I have maybe known five in my whole life.
Speaker 1:True narcissists.
Speaker 2:That's how rare True narcissists.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah they're so evil in that their intent is to abuse at your expense so I can win that. It's really tough to see them actually change the core of who they are towards where I want to love you and give you versus take from you. They're just so deeply damaged and insecure that I have personally never seen a narcissist recover in my life. So when I work with one of them, my whole thing is how to limit the impact that they have, more than expecting them to get cured. That's how bad it is. The other thing about them is they're disconnected from genuine emotions of caring and compassion. They don't really have that element in them. They act like they do, which is what's so frustrating. They could't really have that element in them. They act like they do, which is what's so frustrating. They could do many good deeds. Some narcissists that I've known have done amazingly good things for others, but there's always an agenda. It's covering a multitude of their own sins. Right, for example, I need to do this to compensate for the fact that I am dirty all the time, like I'm hurtful, like I'm mean, I'm cruel, I'm I'm unkind. But it's always tied back to them. It's never just for the other person and the people that. Well, here's what's interesting about that.
Speaker 2:Narcissists are seductive. They're so seductive, they suck you in. They typically are very engaging, charismatic, they can be very popular, often have power behind them. They're intimidating. Hard for people to actually step up and speak to them and they don't respect anyone who they are allowed to run free with. They don't respect you ever. They only respect people who stop them and then they don't like them. So if they don't like you, that's a compliment. But the reason they don't like you is they can't own you and they need to own you. So as long as you're willing to play the game with them, as long as you're willing to allow them control, they will work with you and they will apologize and they will come back around and all that will continue. But the core of who they are will never, ever love you. It'll always be for them. But even they're apologizing, it's so they can get you back into the fold of being my yes man, my agreeer, my supporter.
Speaker 1:Do they even want to get better? I mean, is true narcissism something that doesn't even allow you to go? I don't want to be a narcissist, they can't even get there.
Speaker 2:I've never seen that happen. I've seen people say it. I think they thought they were sincere, it didn't last five seconds. It's so deeply embedded in them that my experience has been they always default back to taking care of themselves at the expense of others. So I've certainly seen people say I want to be different, but I've never seen them follow it through ever like consistently at ever, which is part of the seduction, though. Right, you want to believe that they can be better and you don't believe they're as damaged as they are. Because they can. They cover that well, but they are set that deeply damaged that they know they don't, they don't get better, it doesn't happen. They will continue to take care, take care of themselves at your expense through all lifetime. I've seen parents that have done this and I had their kids have the courage to say to them you are dysfunctional, you are not healthy, I do not want you in my life. And they will continue to work like let me be different, I'm sorry, I was that way to you when you were younger, I need to be better. And then they bring you back into your life and then all of a sudden, they'll start doing some of the same things again making it all about them at your expense.
Speaker 2:And the ones that are most vulnerable right to narcissists are these kinds of people, that people that are selfless. They almost can't comprehend. You could be that way because I'm self-centered enough. As a yellow, I am much more likely to feel the vibe like Like I'm, like I feel like you're taking my deserved time away from me, so I'm more likely to sense it quicker. Reds and yellows are more quickly likely to sense narcissism than blues and whites, cause blues and whites are much more agreeable, accommodating, deferring. They want to believe the best. They're not typically as aware of that encroaching danger that comes with it, so those are the ones that are most likely. Can I ask a question right here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you say you've never seen them get better. So when that gets what anchored into somebody's psyche or whatever, I don't know, I don't know how to use the right words, right when narcissism becomes part of who somebody is. I can have other things. I can be selfish and I can be this and I can be that. Why is that such a? I can't dig that out, I can't excavate that and fix it, Do you know?
Speaker 2:Well, because you're so damaged, You're so needy? Oh, because it comes from a place of need, right, oh, desperate need. Like Hitler was a great example of that. He needed so much to be what he wasn't that he was so desperate that he could never stop that neediness. It was always there, a craving Like this deep hole within you, craving, and a craving like this deep hole within you, craving, and he could never get it met in any kind of a healthy way. He, so he, just he continued to always abuse, control, um, people. The other part is, if you're weak or insecure and you want to belong, you will often jump on the narcissist train because they'll make you feel protected, cared about, noticed. Of course their agenda is to control you, but you don't care because you want to belong. So people that are not very strong within themselves are also very vulnerable to a narcissist because they want to belong and they make you feel that way.
Speaker 1:Right, what other people do you see in the like figures? Historically have been narcissists. Can you think of any?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I'm so I'm so honestly so guarded about labeling someone a narcissist that Hitler is the only one I'm really comfortable going with.
Speaker 1:That is for sure a full-blown narcissist.
Speaker 2:I see other people with narcissistic tendencies Right, but that's my point to our listeners. I want you to understand. I don't want you to think that if somebody is selfish, they're a narcissist.
Speaker 1:That's not what I'm saying, right Right.
Speaker 2:You know, that's the I don't know. That's the part that I think is so important for us to understand. I'm not saying that you should allow them to be what they are to you. I'm just saying if they're a narcissist they are deadly and there will be a point I promise you it never doesn't happen that their narcissism will hurt you. That's what will happen.
Speaker 2:So I'm really even more aware. I'm really more concerned about people that are raised by a narcissist or they're married to a narcissist, because those people they really suffer in greater detail than if it's a friend or a colleague or a political figure or whatever, because they alienate you from your support systems. Narcissists are so fear-based that they will try and protect themselves by keeping you away from anyone who might give you a voice of reason, anyone who might say to you do you know that this is happening? Eventually you find you're not even talking to your family or your friends or other people that might give you a sense of that person is not really good for you. You don't seem like your best self anymore. So they isolate and control you from that and they build you up and they can convince you that they're better for you than those people are.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine? I mean just the manipulation behind that is so gosh. Walking through. That has got to be very confusing, especially if you're open-hearted.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, because you're so naive to it you would never think to do that to somebody. So you're thinking they would not do that to me. And they say it in ways that you have to kind of second guess yourself. Well, maybe I'm the wrong person. They really wouldn't have done that because I wouldn't have done that. So maybe it's really me that's reading it wrong. They're better than I think they are right.
Speaker 2:And then the other part, the manipulation you talked about. It's so great when they sulk, oh my gosh, they go cold Like they're the victim of this brute, this horrible, like they're the victim of this, this brute, this horrible, selfish individual all of a sudden sulks and I can't believe this is happening. Or I can't believe I did that bad thing and it's horrible, and now you won't talk to me. I can't believe it's happening and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's always about themselves. It is always about themselves, right? So they're manipulating you back into forgiving them, letting it be okay again and again, and then, once they have that again, then the threats start again. Right, so it's, and the term gaslighting is is kind of over abused. But gaslighting basically is when you're you know you're not honest, you're always misrepresenting the truth and unfortunately, gaslighting makes people feel like they.
Speaker 2:They selfdoubt, like, well, maybe I was wrong, maybe that really isn't what happened, maybe they really didn't mislead me. They're brilliant at that. I didn't say that, no, it didn't happen. And you're like, unless you're really well-grounded, like oh, yeah, it did happen, and unless you're assertive enough to go, yeah, that's what you said and that's not what you did, and then be aware that once you do confront them, you will get anger every single time. There will never be a like I need to work on that. That's my mistake, right? You'll always get back in your face. You misunderstood that. That's not really fair to put me in that boat. You're being awfully harsh about that. They cannot take criticism at all. They're horrible at owning their stuff long-term. Yet don't get me wrong they're brilliant. So in the moment, they may embrace it. They will not believe it. Do you run?
Speaker 1:into a lot in your life, Taylor, like clients and work and stuff like that. I mean, you have just dealt with just a handful of them in your whole career. Maybe True, I would say full-blown narcissist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that. But it's interesting why they would come to me. Typically they wouldn't seek my Guess why. They come to me To manipulate their spouse into believing they're okay. So they don't do well when they realize I'm not playable. That doesn't work for them. But that's our agenda, right. And then the other one I'll get in is when a spouse is genuinely trying to work on themselves and is strong enough to have themselves and a person will come in as a result of that. They also don't last long because they just can't be told like the truth about themselves. So narcissists don't last in therapy very long. They're actually evil, like they really do, have an evil intent to consume and prey on people and as that is exposed, it doesn't last long-term. So it's almost always volatile.
Speaker 1:So this is going to I don't even know if this is a I'm going to ask this. So do you think that societal parenting, how we approach-.
Speaker 2:Can I increase that?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, I do.
Speaker 1:Could you, could that increase it?
Speaker 2:Oh, 100%. There's no question, though, how we are as a society today an American society, I would say. I think there's other aspects, other elements of other cultures that are not as damaged as ours aspects other elements of other cultures that are not as damaged as ours, but in ours that we are so allowing people to think they're right when they're wrong, not raising our children with firmness of expectations and values, but letting them be their own person, find your own way. We're feeding that in our children, and it's a big, big mistake not to control and teach values and expectations, because people that have narcissistic tendencies, as long as they can win by using these destructive tools, it's harder for them to give them up later, when they've developed them. So the sooner you can actually get them out of them, the happier they've developed them. So the sooner you can actually get them out of them, the happier they're going to be and the healthier they're going to be. But if you don't have the courage to challenge them and I see parents that don't have that courage, so I'll see someone with narcissistic tendencies that is not challenged and they are getting worse and worse by the minute. You can see it growing in them and they get away with it. And I'm telling you it's ironic I'll see them with a look after they landed a punch that won at the expense of someone else and it's like, oh my gosh, they know what they just did and they like it. There's no compassion for the person they did it to at all. So it's very important. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:All I would say is that if you have someone like that in your life, the best way you can deal with them is get away. They're the kind of people you just say, basically, I don't want you in my life and they're stunned by the way. They hate losing. They can't stand it. So they will typically make it about you blame. You make it about you blame a situation never owning that. They are the ones that deserve what they got. But at the same time, most narcissists are extremely smart people. So they know that you got their number. They just don't like that you know, and they don't like that they lost. So if you keep them in your life, they will continue to try and push the boundaries. They'll always try and sneak back in in some form. That's why, in my mind, it's always been easier at the end of the day. No, we don't do that. I don't have that need in my life.
Speaker 1:Once they control you 100%, like once they got you, do they move on to something else?
Speaker 2:Well no, they like having you where you are. They like having their people that they can own. That's really important to them, but they'll do it to anyone new in their life as well. If they can, they'll definitely do that.
Speaker 2:You've got to have very firm boundaries and you have to really like who you are to be able to say that didn't work for me. And then, ultimately, you have to realize that even though you may challenge them on those boundaries or whatever, they will continue to push. It's just constant. And at some point, if you're smart, you'll say I'm done, we're not doing this anymore, and then they will look elsewhere. But they won't want to go freely, Trust me. They like to win at any expense. So the fact that you're giving them a pass to walk away, they won't take. They'll actually try and re-engage it. No, no, they're not just going to walk away. They don't like to lose. You have to be very clear with no, we're done. And once they know you are sincere, like this is not working, then they will start to pull away and move elsewhere. But until they know you're clear about this and you're not vulnerable, they will continue to push and they'll use other people to convince you to bring them back in.
Speaker 2:Oh, their manipulation is unbelievable. It's something to watch. It's certainly not something you want to play with. But that was our thing today, Our narcissists.
Speaker 1:That's just fascinating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is fascinating, Honestly very much.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you, if you have, before we go. I want to ask if you went and saw Inside Out too.
Speaker 2:No, I've not seen that. I heard it's great.
Speaker 1:It's really good, I'd love to I'd love yeah, yeah, I think I think it's. I think they did a really great job and I'd love your view on it as we talk about, I've heard that.
Speaker 2:Okay, if I see that I don't know when I'll see it, but I absolutely think that I heard it was very well done, yeah it explains things so like what anxiety is in the movie.
Speaker 1:I mean there's no, you know spoiler alerts, because it's not, you know, it's not a murder mystery, but the anxiety piece of it is just so fascinating to me how it portrays anxiety as trying to protect us.
Speaker 2:I love that Right right, right, Well, and I think people nowadays it's so much more common, so it's good for people to understand that dynamic in their lives.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so All right, well it was wonderful, as always.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Yeah, back to the movies. Back to the movies. Thank you all for being with us on this journey. We love having you with us and we will continue this journey together. Hopefully, my new book on couples Hartman color code for couples will be out in the fall, and so we're excited to announce that it'll be coming up pretty soon so you get a chance to have a copy of it. Thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you soon, kat.
Speaker 1:Love you.
Speaker 2:Bye-bye.