Very Best of Living
Dr. Taylor Hartman, relationship expert and Psychologist, discusses key insights that he has made over his professional career on what makes successful relationships. His work The Color Code now called the People Code is a powerful agent for positive healthy relationships both personal and professional.
Very Best of Living
The Courage to Choose Truth Over Being Liked
Are your daily actions aligned with who you say you are? That's the challenging question at the heart of this thought-provoking exploration with Dr. Taylor Hartman and Cat Larson. They dive deep into the concept of creating a moral backstop—a clear definition of who you are that acts as a foundation when life throws challenges your way.
The conversation takes a powerful turn when Dr. Hartman shares his personal journey of choosing truth over being liked in his thirties, a decision that fundamentally altered his life path. This choice between authenticity and popularity represents a crossroads many of us face, often without recognizing its profound significance. As the discussion unfolds, we see how these seemingly simple choices form the bedrock of our mental health and relationship quality.
What sets this episode apart is its unflinching look at congruence—the alignment between our stated values and our daily choices. Through compelling examples, including a young woman who claims to value travel yet works at a job with no vacation days, we witness how incongruent living creates frustration and unfulfilled potential. Dr. Hartman challenges us to examine our true motives, going beyond surface behaviors to understand the root causes that drive our actions. This deep self-examination isn't easy, but as the conversation reveals, it becomes more natural with practice and yields profound rewards in authenticity and personal growth.
Ready to create a foundation that allows you to live with greater purpose and authenticity? Listen now to discover how defining yourself can transform your relationships and mental health. Share your thoughts about your own journey toward congruent living in the comments below!
Take the Personality and Character Profiles at TaylorHartman.com.
Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.
Hello listeners, this is Dr Taylor Hartman. With the Very Best of Living, I am so happy to have you with us on this journey of mental health and how to make relationships healthy. That's what really life's all about. In the end, I'm with my good friend, Kat Larson. Hello, Kat, Good morning. Good morning, it's another good morning.
Speaker 2:I have this incredible gift for my birthday. My oldest daughter, Tara, gave me a book called the Travel Book and it's like a coffee table big, large book. It's got every country in the world and a little bit about them like two pages on every country in the world, and I go through it every day. I read at least five countries and many of them I've been to. I'm just so mesmerized by. I think I'd like to go to that one that would be a good one to go see. I haven't seen that one. Oh my gosh, I remember that one. I was looking at Swaziland, which is now a different name, but we were there at their holiest ceremony of the year and my wife actually was able to dance in their holy ceremony. It's just unbelievable to me Just to have experienced a different culture and what they're about. It's the oldest absolute monarchy in the world and it's just I look at these places we've been and I thought you know what I'm so glad that we went and did it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When we did it.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Because I think people wait too long to do things in their life that they want to do and they genuinely want to do them, but they don't create a definition.
Speaker 2:They don't say I am a traveler, I will go and do that, and so they miss the opportunity. And, by the way, there are people who don't want to travel. That's not a problem In my mind. That's not your definition. You don't define yourself as a traveler, so it's not a problem In my mind. That's not your definition. You don't define yourself as a traveler, so it's not a problem. But if you say I want to be a parent, I want to have children, but you don't have any kind of normal relationship with somebody of the opposite sex, well, okay, how's that going to happen? And then the window closes and you have to own it. You have to say well, I didn't pay attention to what I said, was what I was about? Or I want to have an opportunity to work in this field. What are you doing to make that happen? Well, right now I can't, because I have to do that. Okay, when's that going to change? Well, right now I can hardly keep my head above water, so I'm just going to do this. And all the years pass and all of a sudden, before you know it, no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Irma Bombeck her wonderful thing on Mother's Day or Father's Day she would talk about how she would have her mother dolls out on the bed and she would play with them throughout the day. And somebody said to her one time, where's dad? And she goes oh, he's the daddy doll under the bed. He went to work so she threw him under the bed. I mean, I thought that was hysterical because it's true, yes, like dads would go to work, so who's dad? He's under the bed.
Speaker 2:Well, as you age, you become more like my dad. Over time he became the dad on the bench at Disneyland, so he wasn't under the bed anymore, but he was on the bench. And I'm looking for that bench now whenever I go, because it's a great place to sit on Main Street at Disneyland. But so in the process of going through life, we find ourselves at different places, and I think about this dad who just took his family to a Deadhead concert in Vegas and he was so joyous. Like he's in his 40s, he's living life loud. One of his sons said I don't want to go next year, but I'm really glad we came. Like I love that he gave them the experience the opportunity to go and be and do in their life.
Speaker 2:Now all I said to him was so you're defining yourself as a dad in that moment by spending time with your kids, and it was interesting. He was like, yeah, I guess you're right. It was just a cool way of him recognizing that he is actually a very, very committed father and spends time with him. So I want us to think about our listeners, to think about what am I committed to and is it congruent with who I say I am? We talked a little bit before once about defining yourself. Like what is your moral definition of who you are?
Speaker 2:I think what I'm trying to suggest is people need to create a backstop that they can trust. So when someone throws mud at you, you can either say, yeah, that sticks, I believe that, or no, that's not who I am. You can think what you want, you can say what you want. That's not who I am, that's not what I am about, and whatever that is or isn't, ultimately it will define you. I've worked with people through the years that their moral backstop is just non-existent, like there's just nothing that defines them, that they could trust Nothing. So whenever I would challenge them on things, they'd go well. That's just not something I stood for. I didn't realize how bad it was that I didn't care about that, or they just didn't have a moral definition.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying Give me an example. Could you share what your moral backdrop is, your definition?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for example, I would help someone who is being bullied. I could not turn my head and not care about somebody being taken advantage of. I would stand up for them.
Speaker 2:I would speak on their behalf. I'm a strong believer in the work ethic. I can't stand what has happened in our society. I was reading an article about a woman who came to England and she's receiving more welfare money than a person who works six days a week, 10 hours a day and she's angry that she's stuck in a container. She goes this isn't suitable for animals. And I'm like you don't have a clue. Like you're not, you have no work ethic at all.
Speaker 2:I'm a very firm believer that you work for what you get in life. I think people get what they deserve. That's another of my moral backgrounds. I've seen people.
Speaker 2:I was talking to someone the other day who stays in a relationship that is so abusive and yet it is filled with laughter and opportunities and money, and I said you got what you deserve, didn't you? And she said yeah, yeah, it's never sure, it's never settled, but I chose it and I would choose it again and I accept that I have ownership for being in this relationship. I respect that. That's kind of what. Her moral backstop is different than mine and you don't have to agree with someone's moral backstop. You just have to respect people who have one because they are owning their life. They're saying, basically, this is what I choose to be and who I choose to be.
Speaker 2:Now along that path, kathy, like I think I have to be open to changing my moral backstop. If things come into my life that educate me differently than I was aware before, then I want to receive that, I want to accept that. Okay, that's a new insight I didn't have before and that would help me change or add to maybe, who I am and how I am, and certainly as I've aged, like parenting, I always love when people that are single are trying to give advice to parents. Yeah, like okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right. So once you become one, then we'll talk right. Exactly, I'm not saying. What they're saying isn't true. They may be right even, but it doesn't necessarily give them credibility they'll have when they actually have children Right, but once you have children you may be wrong. Even then, Like your moral backstop may be illegitimate, like you think parents should defer to children. That's not my moral backstop. I think parents have a responsibility to educate children, to discipline them, to teach them. The world will not receive you the way I do, and so you have to be respectful and responsible. So, at any rate, I do think the moral backstop is something that defines who you are and how you are. Another mind. I've talked about this before on a podcast. I still remember to this day, and I asked two of my clients this week what their answer was. I said if you had to choose, to be liked or to be truthful, which one would you choose.
Speaker 2:And they both said I would choose being liked, and I know that isn't right, but that's what I would choose today. And I said well, I was in my early thirties when I had that same dilemma. I chose truth and I have suffered the consequences and enjoyed the benefits the rest of my life, and so I mean that became for me a moral backstop. That was not my moral backstop at 29. So that's where I'm referring to?
Speaker 3:Does that make sense? Space of of growth? When somebody says I want to be liked, I know that I I want to be liked. I don't want to be like that anymore. I want to sit in truth. And how long it took me, how long it took me between those two things, because that was a big one for me such courage, especially for yellow, it's so hard to give up that adoration.
Speaker 2:Yes for truth yes, and. I watched you go through it and I was very, very impressed you came out the other end. Some go back, some they give up, but you didn't, and I think it's been very rewarding. Yes.
Speaker 3:Oh, 100%. And when I look at it it's like and when you're talking about, you know where we go in life. I have a I might be off on a wrong tangent, but I have a question for you, like how, how long do you think, like, by the time I'm, you know, 73, is it done? I mean, or do you see people changing until they're 94? I mean, what do you see in life?
Speaker 2:Honestly, the only reason people change is either they have to, they're forced to, or they're humble, like they invite it. They accept life differently because they see it differently than they did before, and or the other one, which is you're forced to Like. You think you're a good parent and your kid hates you because you didn't discipline them. Okay Then, if you want to relate to your kid, you better change. Right, so you're forced to. But then there's other people that they're well like you were. You wanted to know. Is there a better way to live? I want that. That's there. You weren't forced to, you chose to. But I do think it's ongoing.
Speaker 2:I think this growth opportunity and I have, by the way, many, many male clients, and most of them they're profound leaders, they're strong, they're bold. Most of them have said to me I would not have accepted your feedback 20 years ago. I would not have. I was too arrogant, too insecure, too defensive, too know-it-all. So in their own growth they've gone from 20 or 30 to 40 and 50, and they've changed their paradigm significantly to receive that. So I think it's lifelong. I really do. I think you also weave in other dimensions likeity and emotional depth.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Social skills. You develop these other elements of mental health that maybe wasn't even on your radar several years back, right yeah?
Speaker 3:So I like that one too, the development of the mental health piece of it. Right now, as you see your clients and you work with companies and things that you're doing, what do you think is the top two, like, what are people dealing with right now, the biggest that you see?
Speaker 2:I think people are selfish and I think people are insecure, not well-defined. I think we are not strong mentally, I don't think we know our past and our capability. So I think that there are those who are doing their work and they're growing, they're evolving, but the vast majority they find ways to schmooze around rather than face head on Things that would make their life better. I think what we're dealing with. I also love the idea of congruence. I really like that. One, like the Indians in America, for example, had a sense of congruence with nature that we don't have today, but they did have that. I mean, they had other things that were they were not as strong in and it may have cost them a civilization for all I know, but they certainly had that of congruence with nature. And we need to find that congruence with our mental health. I was talking to this young womanence with our mental health. I was talking to this young woman, for example very interesting, I loved, she was just terrific and we were having this conversation and I asked her what are the things that she would like to have in her life five years from now? And she said several of them. One of them was I want to travel, several of them. One of them was I want to travel. She had been done semester abroad foreign country, loved it, absolutely changed her life. She said it changed me. I can't tell you how much impact that had on my life. I would do that more and more if I could. I really believed in it. And another was to be I want to have children. And so the question was okay, well then, are you in a relationship? Well, no, so then our goal would be to get you healthy enough to actually meet somebody and share a relationship with someone you could then build a family with. So where are we at on that? And she said we're not there.
Speaker 2:I said okay, so then tell me about your day-to-day life. Like, what do you do in your day-to-day life? She goes I go to work, like I literally go to work every day. She's a great worker, shows up, gets things done, wants a promotional growth opportunity in this company. So I just kind of, almost just randomly, I said well, how many vacation days do you get a year, thinking of the travel? And she said I don't. I said wait a minute, you have no vacation days. No, then how are you going to travel? That seems impossible. And she said well, I never thought about that. So in our work together, I said to her you tell me what you value more growing in this company that doesn't offer you any vacation days or traveling.
Speaker 2:Because obviously she's skilled, she got her degree, she's working in an area she's very capable of, but she needs to find another job, or forget traveling. You can't do both. She had never considered that incongruence, never. So my thinking was well, what else is she not thinking about? For example, like finding somebody she could really have a good relationship with, to have children someday? That probably also is a quagmire of well, I'm busy at work. I'm so busy I have no time to actually meet people. So to me, that's where we have to kind of get started with okay, so you got to get congruent, and I love the definition of self helps you at least say okay. So what is my backdrop? What is it I really want to commit to, and how do I go out making that happen, as opposed to living in a delusion that I may like these things but I'm not doing anything to grant them in my life. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Putting together the pieces that say that's going to get me here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, putting those pieces together. And just so our listeners understand, I'm a big proponent of motive. People don't seem to understand the simplicity of that truth, right? I don't know why it's so difficult to grasp. But, for example, if this young woman said to me travel, and I want to travel because I want to look better than my friends, what do you think I would have said to that Dirty motive? Hello, yeah, it's a dirty motive. You're never going to be happy. You may travel, but you're not going to enjoy what travel should offer because your motive for traveling is dirty.
Speaker 2:Yes, so, whatever someone says, their definition is right. Whatever their definition is, like I say, I think working to earn your way in life is one of my principles. Well, if my motive behind that is dirty, it does not offer me the results I'm thinking I'm going to get Right. So you have to go back and say okay, so what is my motive for having children? I know some people that have them because they don't be lonely, right? Well, that's scary to me, right? Good luck with that one. But if your motive, you've got to know your motive enough to know whether what you are defining yourself as will benefit and bless your life or curse you.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's so good. And starting to look at your motive is. I mean, isn't that most of psychology is like like the basics of it, like being able to go? How do I look at my motive? How do I start doing that? It drives me crazy.
Speaker 2:My field, kathy, it is all behavior-based still yes, and it's so superficial it drives me insane, like you. Never. You just trim up the branches. You never get to the root of the problem ever. Looking at the motive is the root. Looking at the behaviors is the branch. And you're never going to get to the core issue until you can understand why am I motivated this way? For example, if I'm real arrogant, very demanding, and the reason I am is because I am so terribly insecure and afraid to look bad, if I don't look at my insecurity, all those behaviors aren't going to change. But if I'm too insecure to look at my motive, I will just keep snapping away the branches. I won't actually ever do my work.
Speaker 2:And I've worked with people in business numerous times where I just finally said you know what You're never going to change, you don't want to work. And I've worked with people in business numerous times where I just finally said you know what You're never going to change, you don't want to change, you're too fear-based to make a difference and you're destroying lives around you. I am so direct with them, I am so blunt, but I know, at the end of the day, if they're not willing to look at the motive behind it. They're not going to be different, of course, and you can't trust people who don't know their motives. And, by the way, sometimes you can't trust people who know their motives because they know they're manipulative, but they're gonna keep doing it because it works for them.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that's a great point too is when you start doing something different about your motives. I mean that's the other thing is like you can't do that. You know, in a, in a vacuum, I mean trying things and failing and looking at people, do the thing, sit in it, never do one thing with it. Because you know, and I can focus on the clean motives and I can focus on my strengths, but unless I start an application, like talking to people doing something different, and that's what's I think the hard part is well, I read the book. I mean, I think mentally, people go well, I did read that and I still don't know, because you haven't tried anything right, you haven't put it into an action.
Speaker 2:Well, I've always believed the character code was the better book, right? The color code is an incredible awareness of who you are. Yes, it's a gift, is what it is Right. But if you want to do your work, you've got to get out there and communicate with people and want to hear what you don't know.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Allow people to give you feedback on your behavior. I was so impressed with this young man I'm working with. Oh my gosh, he was dumped by his girlfriend. It hurt him desperately. He loves her very much and I said, well, you can do your work now or you can wallow.
Speaker 2:And he is so humble, like he is so willing. I told him when he has to get back on a horse, he's got to start dating again. And he actually made the commitment to ask three different girls out that he would never have had the courage to ask out before. And I watched that willingness to put himself out there, check his motives. His motives were insecurity, fear. They're not going to want to go, and so that would have trapped him in being a victim, right. Instead, his humility and then his courage allowed him to actually implement a different style, different skill, and it's going to free him, such that he actually may get a chance at his ex-girlfriend's heart again. Who knows, right? And the reality is, when he becomes the stronger, more confident person she may see, oh my gosh, and he has all these other gifts that I did love.
Speaker 2:I just lack confidence. Yes. But I just admire his willingness to get in there and do the work, which is what you're talking about, and to be wrong. It's okay for someone to say, oh, I was wrong about that. You know, I love pickleball.
Speaker 2:It's so great to learn a new skill, Like, oh, I thought it was better to do this. No, it's not better In this game, it's better to do this. Oh well, that's helpful. What if I just say well, that may be what you think, but I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. Well, okay, Then you'll get the same result you were getting before.
Speaker 3:So try and trying it and saying let me try it. I mean, I know this sounds, it really sounds so easy when we talk about it and simplistic and it is, but it is the. You know, it's like you make a fire the same way every time. You don't have to do anything. You know there's you just look at it and say these are the tools and we keep looking for. That's why they keep writing books. They think the tools are going to, they're basic. You have to do it, you have to do it.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like people go to the gym. They regularly go to the gym. They hate the gym in January and February because everybody's starting a new leaf and they're going to go, and then they quit by March. And then the gym rats the ones who really like to go to the gym are in their seventh heaven again.
Speaker 3:Right Well.
Speaker 2:I think it's because it's hard, like people mean well, they want to figure out how to get healthy and physically fit, but it's hard. That's no different with mental health. I think it may be harder actually with mental health, but I think you're right. If you don't put yourself out there in a paradigm of teach me, help me see where I'm wrong, give me some better clues on what I could do, then you don't get better and you give up and you go back to your victimhood life or your abusive, mean demanding life. Either one is limiting, not healthy.
Speaker 3:Well, and people that you're around too, like you know, you can read that on people. I mean. I think I've experienced that when I was getting up full of crap, when I was doing things and not being truthful, and pretty soon you lose the, you lose people's interest and support and it's so critical to have that. You know like people that you just kind of We'll talk about that in a minute.
Speaker 2:You're right. That's such a good insight, Kat. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, when you're not sincere, people walk away. They do, they do. That's such a good point. It was like when I was writing the color code the first time, I went through four different editors who just quit. Finally they said you're not serious about this, You're not writing the book. And until my wife said we're not going to go out this weekend, I got oh okay, that's going to change. I got to go out, so I'll write the book. Well, the truth is you're right that when you're pretending that you care, but people who are legit know you're not sincere, they actually just give up. Right, they walk away and say no, you're not the real deal.
Speaker 3:Right, so you surround yourself with people that take less. Nope, you're not the real deal, right? So you surround yourself with people that take less you the less version of you, yeah, you know. And then what do they say? You're the cumulative of the five people you hang out with. And if those people are not not even demanding your best, but like letting you shine it on because everybody knows?
Speaker 2:you know, they know You're right. That's so good. That's so good. If the level of interaction you have is superficial, that's because that's what you're allowing, that's what you're creating the ones that could have gotten you deeper. They've gone on. They've realized it's a waste of my time.
Speaker 3:That's right, because what is it? It was all for me. That was where I was so selfish. It was all for me.
Speaker 2:Oh, I like that. That's really good. That's a dirty motive, yep, and people get tired of dirty motives.
Speaker 3:It appeals to you after a time.
Speaker 2:Yes, I like that. It's so important that people understand that it's not easy to do and I'm very empathetic with people who get stuck or give up, but there's a price. There's a price for that and the price is you actually get stuck in life, you don't actually move forward and you lose quality people. You eventually will run with people. I think we've seen that a lot with many of the politicians that we live with. They have not been legitimate, fighting for the people, and people are getting tired of not believing you care about us. You really want us to win and the few who I think genuinely are trying to serve the people. Yes.
Speaker 2:They stand out like a sore thumb. They're so obvious, yeah, they're so rare. I wish we had more people like that in life. And even that's true of parents Like there are, parents who do what they do for themselves, not their children.
Speaker 3:And kids can feel it and sense it and they Mm-hmm, like spend a lot more time there. You might think you've got it Like okay, you know reds, blues, yellows, whites, fun peace. You got to just go back and I just think, live in it forever. I mean, it's like what's your motive? Keep looking at it, keep questioning it Always.
Speaker 2:Always For everything you're doing. It's not as difficult as people think, except at first.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:At first it's like, oh my gosh, I keep examining my navel Like enough's, enough, right? Well, once you've examined your navel, you know where it is. Let it go move on.
Speaker 2:Ask other questions other motive issues right, but at least get clear enough. And now I can check my motive in five seconds. It doesn't take long. Once you're good at doing that, you can see your motive. So I don't want people to think that it's something you can ever achieve. Of course you can achieve it, but you have to pay enough attention to it early enough to get it right. Yes, and most people they will lie to themselves. They will say they will justify a motive when they know that's what they're doing is justifying. They're not really being legit about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was funny. Last week we were chatting and you know I think I've mentioned on another podcast about what Paka was going through and we were I asked a question and he's kind of did that like face, like hand in his head, like, oh gosh, here we go again and I go, I go. Oh, oh, you're tired of talking about this after, after you know three weeks, three weeks of new behavior Now you're done.
Speaker 2:It's so true. Oh my gosh, I think it wears on people, though. I think it does. I think it's harder at first, but I want people to know you really do.
Speaker 1:get better at it and then it becomes easy, and then it becomes easier for sure, for sure All right.
Speaker 3:We've got to quit for today.
Speaker 2:Okay, one more time Loved it. Thanks to our listeners for always listening. Oh, my wife has something she wants to share, please. No. I don't. Oh, she was listening. I thought she had something she wanted to add. Tell Kat she offended me on this one. Oh great, I love it. I love it. She said. I just wanted to tell Kat she offended me on this one, which makes me happy because I was just listening to Ricky Jervis who said if you're offended, you probably are the problem.
Speaker 3:I want to know what.
Speaker 2:I did to offend her. She said something about I'm 60 and I'm going to wait until I'm 73. Oh, you said you were 60. Do I have to wait until I'm 73? Gain, 73. So obviously you got a long way to go, girl.
Speaker 3:Don't give up. Yeah, you're one of those weird, you know fairy folk that never get old, though, jean.
Speaker 2:But I have to say, by the way, I'm so glad that she raised that because I want our audience to know I loved his comment. He was sitting on the view and they were offended and he goes. Just because it offends you doesn't mean you're right. Right, I mean, my problem with people get offended nowadays is they have bad mental health, like literally. But instead of saying what's wrong with my mental health, they go. You did this to me, right, and what he said was if you're offended doesn't mean you're right. So listeners.
Speaker 3:So good, do that this week, if you're getting offended.
Speaker 2:You're probably the problem. That's right. Goodbye, Thanks for a great time. Talk to you all next week. Love you guys Right now.