Rebuilding Trust: Owning Your Part In Marriage

What if the hardest step toward saving a marriage is the one your pride resists most—owning your part? We dive into the quiet ways relationships erode, from fantasies that siphon attention to anger that masks powerlessness, and we unpack what it really takes to rebuild trust after betrayal. Through raw client stories—one couple who transformed an affair into a deeper, more honest love, and a rare case where deception demanded distance—we chart a path that puts commitment, forgiveness, and clean intent back at the center of partnership.

We explore why divorce is surging after 50 and how affluence, independence, and empty nests expose fault lines that stayed hidden while kids and calendars kept you busy. Freedom isn’t the villain; it’s the amplifier. If you use choice to invest—curiosity over criticism, presence over performance, bids for connection over silent resentment—your relationship can become stronger and more alive. If you use it to chase a fantasy, you’ll starve the bond that could still feed you.

To make the work practical, we lean on the Color Code framework to decode core motives—connection (blue), peace (white), power (red), fun (yellow)—and show why well-meaning partners miss each other. A blue pushing for intimacy can trigger a white’s retreat; a yellow’s need for play can be misread as avoidance. Strength in any color is presence: honest bids, steady boundaries, and respect that doesn’t flinch. Repair requires both people to own their part and, when trust is broken, to define a clear process for disclosure, transparency, and re-earning reliability. If one partner refuses to forgive or engage, that refusal is the answer.

If you feel the distance, start small and clean: ask for a 20-minute phone-free check-in, share one thing you miss, make one promise you can keep this week. Let motive lead your method, and let effort speak louder than anger. If this conversation opened something for you, follow the show, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a rating and review so more couples can find their way back to each other.

Take the Personality and Character Profiles at TaylorHartman.com.

Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com  Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.

Transcript

Snow, Hawaii, And A Pivot To Marriage

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Hello, listeners. This is Dr. Taylor Hartman from where it's snowing beautifully in Sundance, Utah. I'm with my good friend Kat Larson. Hi, Kat. Hello. How are you? I'm very good. I'm very good. I'm back from Hawaii, and it was just delightful. It's always delightful. It's good. There's a lot to be said for that. It rained so badly one day that it flooded. Oh. And that's pretty bad for Hawaii to flood. But uh it's just Hawaii. So you just love it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Yep. And we went on a party boat, and I forgot I was old. So all of a sudden I'm like burned. But I had a lot of fun. It was beautiful. Uh, just great fun to be out there and seeing grandkids and my kids, and so fun to be back.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

What is your middle name? Your middle name is party boat. I mean, come on, every place you go, it's a party boat.

Marriage As Society’s Foundation

Fantasies, Distance, And Sabotage

SPEAKER_02 1:03

It was fun. It was fun, I will say that. So, so now I'm I'm back, and I today is an interesting one. I want to talk about marriages. I think that marriage is the foundation of a strong society. I think that people that are committed to being with each other and building families is the essence of a strong society. And if you look at societies that have faltered in the past, let's take the Roman society, what happened was there was so much infidelity and so much not being committed and loyal and true that the family started dissolving and they started losing their way. And I see that happening in America today, which is very disturbing to me. I see people taking marriage less for uh more for granted. I just I hope our listeners will think about their marriage and what are they doing to enhance the quality of their marriage today? And there's a a couple I work with, and I have one of the people spends all sorts of energy on connections to other people that are not her spouse. And she's had fantasies. And so I'm like, well, how's that gonna help? And he he feels the distance. He feels like she'll go off and sleep elsewhere, not necessarily with him. And he feels the distance happening, but he's very committed, very loyal, and yet the energy she's putting into other fantasies are not helping build the relationship. So that makes sense. So are you saying fantasies? Yeah, like fantasies of being with uh other people, spending time with other people, um, building a connection with other people. And when I challenge her on it, she will tell me, yeah, but I don't think he's my kind of person, my husband. I'm like, well, wait a minute. That I mean, that doesn't make sense to me. You're not you're not giving him even the opportunity to create what you should have if you want to have a good relationship. But I think when people get caught up in their fantasies, they almost think, well, I have no other choice. This is what I have to do to stay in the marriage. And meanwhile, she's sabotaging it, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

So about two weeks ago, a man uh scheduled an appointment with me, who I had seen previously for some time. And he walked into my office and he sat down and he said, I want to thank you. I want you to know that you saved me and my marriage. And when I first came to see you, had I not paid for two sessions up front, I would not have come back. I was so angry and so offended that I thought, even though you came highly recommended, I said, You're not recommended for me. This is too much. And what he was referring to was his wife was having an affair and he was innocent. And so he came to see me to probably expose what was wrong with her. And I said, Okay, so what role did you play in that relationship? And he was so angry, like it was like he's a good boy being slapped. Why am I being slapped, right? And uh, but we talked it through and I worked with him on it, and still he felt very uh unheard. Like, like, how how could you be saying how can you be asking me what my role is? And of course I told him I'm asking you because if you want to build a relationship with this woman who you love, you have to take ownership. If it's all going to be her and she did this on her own, she had every all her needs were met by you, but she on her own chose this, then she probably isn't the girl you want. But if there's more to her she is, which I believe there is, then you must have had some part in this. And let's talk about that. You didn't want to hear that. And I understand that, but you know me, I'm I am direct, and that's the route I'm gonna take with someone. If they want to get better, then you got to take your part. And as it's true, Kathy, in all these situations, it's like when you lose weight, it feels so good to feel less, but then you still have baggage from the past, like how you ate improperly or all that stuff. So it doesn't just all get better and go away. You have to work through it. And what I love about this man is he and his wife worked through it. And with tears in his eyes, he said, I have never been as happy as I am now. I have never felt more in love. And I give him like so much credit because honestly, he loved her so dearly that he did not want to lose her. Like he truly, the embarrassment from it, the frustration, all these things he had to go through, he did want her badly. And then I give her credit for stepping up and owning I was wrong. I was I was out of line. I should have said something. Why didn't I speak up before? So they really were both incredibly wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

So he had a part to play in it.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Yep. Right. Right? Which he didn't want to look at. He what? He did not want to look at that because why would he? Like she had the affair, not him.

When Infidelity Isn’t Symmetrical

SPEAKER_01 6:22

And when you are, not this person specifically, but when you are working with that, you know, I'm going along in my life and you know, and I'm not doing anything, and I'm not looking at other people and having an affair, and my husband has an affair, but I go back to uh emotional distance or I'm to him or justifying justifying.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Right. I'm justifying it because instead of what did I do that helped create the problem? Because if you don't fix whatever that was, then it's not gonna get better no matter what you do. Now, having said that, if he had done nothing, always wanted, always pushed for, and she was just not legitimate, then better he moves on. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yes, a hundred percent. My question is you've never run into a couple. I mean, that's just not the way you work. You never you dig and dig and dig and go, there it is. There's never a couple that's been like, oh, you're right. You're you've been perfect. She's just she or he are morally corrupt.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

No. Well, it's it's I say that, and then I think about another couple I've worked with that she would literally give him drugs to sleep so she could go out and have sex with another man and then come back to the house as if nothing ever happened. And and honestly, and finally he came to see me on his own and and he was not guilty. Like he was truly a legitimate player in her life, cared about her, wanted things to work, but he was unaware of her drive and her need or whatever it was that was going on. It was, and I would I told her, I said, You're very dysfunctional. What you are doing is killing your possibilities for any kind of hope in the future. It's not right what you're doing. You need to fix that. And I I don't know whatever happened to them, to be honest with you. I don't know what the actual outcome of that thing was. Obviously, um I didn't share my stuff because that's their individual insights and knowledge. But in that occasion, I felt he was blindsided.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Like there was rarely that happens. Rarely. Rarely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Wow. That's powerful too. I mean, there's a lot of hope in that too. Like I think. Yeah. Right. Like I'm just not a victim here that I can move forward. And then even no matter what happens with the other person if they're not willing to get back in and engage, right? At least I have grown and seen and take responsibility, which, you know, you still win. Can help you walk down the road better, right?

Hope, Growth, And Healthy Models

Why Divorce Spikes After 50

Choice, Affluence, And Selfishness

SPEAKER_02 8:52

If you don't do that, then you miss out on the opportunity. Like it's a horrible thing to experience, right? But on the other hand, you grew you grow anyway. You do you gain momentum in your own life, right? So it's it's just interesting. I I just was so moved about this couple. I mean, they are in a better place than they have ever been. No. Because of the work they've done. And it's out of a horrific situation, if you can imagine. And then I think about another couple I'm working with that are so healthy. They're honest with each other. They call each other out on stuff. They will say, What about this? Well, I didn't see that happen here. Um, but that's not with a grudge or an anger or holding something back, like, I want to get you. I got you now. I think of this couple that that he said, Taylor, I wouldn't have talked to you 10 years ago in a million years. I would, I was doing everything right in my mind. And I was major successful work-wise, uh, very involved in volunteer work. I was a good person. But I remember walking through the airports, yelling at her and the kids for not going faster. Like I was just, I was on this thread of just function and do and get and done. He goes, and I was miserable. And I didn't even know it. I I I I would never have thought I needed to talk to someone, never. And he's come. I if you if you saw their relationship, they are like a poster board model relationship for what it could look like when you have two people both healthy, standing independently, and choosing each other. It's so beautiful to see. So I bring this up, Kat, because today more people are divorcing in America after their 50s than before 50. So what's happening? Why are people choosing that path out as opposed to a path in toward each other? Right? And is society offering that out? I mean, there's lots of different kinds of things that are happening that are pushing. For example, women often are more financially secure now than they were before. Many of them are also working still, right? Right. My experience has been many people have said to me, I don't like my spouse, but we have kids. So I'm staying for the kids. Well, that doesn't work when the kids go, obviously, because they're gone now, right? And and then it becomes like, well, I'll sleep in the upstairs, you sleep in the downstairs, but we'll not really have a relationship. And they kind of navigate around trying to make it work right that way. I will admit, I heard someone say the other day that I like very much, why did your marriage work so well? And the guy said, I I just think I got the right person. Like I just, I just married well. Like she's just the right person. And I said, Yes. And what you didn't mention was, and you were also the right person. Yes. So I do think that there's something to be said for what he he shared. I mean, I feel I feel bad for people that they just got the wrong person and they're not willing to work, they're not willing to do anything about it. So, really, you can't win that one, right? As much as you try. And then there's others that they really are both the right people. And they can make it work. Like this couple I talked about when he walked in my office. Like they fortunately were the right people. And so they could make that thing right. I the other couple I talked about, she was drugging him and she'd go out at night. I don't think that she's the right person. So I I mean, yeah. Yeah, think. So, so what I'm saying is I I do think getting the right person is how it starts, but being the right person even comes before that.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah. So so the the the thing about being, I just want your your thoughts on this. Like, what happens after 50 in this this day in this, what do you think those components are other than like, you know, women can make their own money. What do you see happening in society that says, you know, I mean, I get it, your kids are gone, there's nothing to distract you. You don't have a lot, you you don't have nothing's pulling you in 50 different directions and soccer and basketball and you know, or or taking care of your emotional needs, those things walk out the door and go build their own lives, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

So, but what do you think is happening? Why, I mean, why from your perspective?

Commitment, Desire, And Forgiveness

SPEAKER_02 13:19

I I do think affluenza doesn't help. Affluence. I I think when people can, you know, people that are less successful financially, they may need each other more than people who are able to separate, right? Right. They choose uh a separate kind of path. And I think the fact that they can choose makes the relationship either better or worse. So if you can choose, then you either choose to enhance and and make better what you have, or you choose to go a separate way, right? And that's what I feel is what's happening to a lot of people today. I also think selfishness has become more common today than ever. I think people are very selfish about my needs. I want things that I want. And if you're in the way of that, then maybe you're not for me. So sacrifice is maybe less real today than it was before.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Do you think that comes from the, you know, the messaging everywhere that we hear? Like like individualistic. Yeah. Individualistic conversations are happening more through social media and that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Very much so. Or I I have a right to my needs. Um why why am I not taking care of myself? A lot of times, though, a lot of these people I work with, like one woman I know, she left her husband because she had an experience with a therapist that made her feel somehow heard for the first time. So instead of working on it with the spouse, she left him. Now she's honestly like lost. She said her spouse was kind of boring. Like, I'm really not getting anywhere with him. And so instead of enhancing that relationship, she left him, divorced, and she's really kind of out there without like much substance. Like she's really not sure she did the right thing. So I think that a lot of them are messages are you have a right to take care of yourself, you have a right to your life. If they're blocking you from that, then maybe they're the wrong person for you. Instead of saying, what is it about you that is making their life better? How are you enhancing the quality of their life? You're thinking, what about my needs and how are they being met?

SPEAKER_01 15:31

So, so when you are working with people or you would say, okay, so prescriptive for right now, when you say, What am I doing to enhance this? What if I don't want to enhance it? Like, is that where you start with somebody? Like, what if it's like I've tried and it's and it's not there?

Anger, Powerlessness, And Accountability

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, you got to decide, is this somebody you want to invest in? Is it a relationship you want to build and invest in? And what did you see about them in the first place that drew you to them? Like, what was that that called you in the first place? So, how do I, what's my motivation? Right. And I think you have to want to make it better first before you jump to another place. And you're asking a good question, like, but desire, what is the desire? Desire is am I okay with myself walking out on something that I committed to? Or am I better, do I like myself better as a person who tries to make it right before I decide it's wrong? And I think people with integrity would prefer to go the route of I made a commitment, I want to make it right before I then choose to go another route. And sometimes the person that says that, the other person wakes up. Like they realize you're I have not treated you well. I haven't going down my own path, doing my own thing with other friends all the time. I'm not really nurturing you. And I justified that because you were cold or you were gone or whatever. I think that's a very important step to take if you're really gonna, if you're serious about divorcing, go the route of first, how can I make this person feel loved and cared for? And if they then don't, for whatever reason, I've had that happen too, where people have said that they they weren't interested. They were so angry and so cold and evasive that whatever had broken them up years ago couldn't be put back together because the person didn't want to. So that does happen. If that happens, by the way, I tell people to separate. Like if one person is not willing to forgive, move on. You can't build a relationship on something where someone won't forgive you. So even if you've been wronged, like a person has an affair and you can't forgive them, I would say you're the guilty party. Like if they want to make it better and you won't forgive them, then they can't have a relationship with you because there's no place to build trust. Right?

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Do you spend a does it take a lot of time with people? I'm sure it's different for everybody, but like the anger that comes with that, like when you how do you work with that anger? Because I see so many people being angry about those things, you know, like they just they want to punish or they want to, you know, make the other person feel bad because they feel so bad. Like, how do you, how do you in the color code world, you know, with the the Hartman school of thought, say, here's where we start. So you have to get rid of the anger. Is that where you go?

Color Code Dynamics In Marriage

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Well, if they want the relationship, but many people that are angry don't realize they're even angry. Like they're looking at it from the point of I'm the victim here. Don't make me feel bad. Um, I think it's another couple I've worked with, like she has felt oppressed for years in this relationship. So she's just decided to split the money. We're done. I'm taking mine, you're taking yours. And yet she wants a relationship with him. I'm like, well, that's not gonna work. Like you, it's already so adversarial that you're on two sides of the coin. You're not together on this. So I think I see anger pretty quickly. There are some that are very passive-aggressive, but they can't help themselves. I mean, you see it. They it's so exposed, so quick. Some are very blatant about it, right? If if they get self-righteous or arrogant, I'm like, something's not right here. Typically, if they're humble, they get exposed for truly being legit. Like, I really do want this right, but here's things I've done wrong. Here's what I'd like to work on. If they don't have that part of them, I can see pretty quickly they're stuck in anger. And anger is just powerlessness. They just feel like I'm unable to get what I want. And if they felt that for a long time, it's even harder to let it go. So the sooner you can address it, the better. But I I also know people in their defense, they have tried over and over and over. Right. I was just thinking about that. And there's no movement. And so when they meet me, it's kind of like, buddy, like I've been doing this for like 20 years. You've just been in here for a day. Like, you want me to let this go and get on with it? I said, not necessarily. You can just go if you want to, but you've done 20 years of of destruction. Like, don't sit there and act like you're you're clean and they're dirty. Like, just at least own you never got through that powerlessness. And that's got you stuck for 20 years. But if if you're okay with that, if you feel like you've done your part even though you've been angry the whole time, fine, move on. But own it.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

And as a therapist, you you've I think you've said that a couple of times in in different ways, and I love it. It's like, so your job as a as their therapist is, you know, if we're gonna give somebody a tool, it's like, what are you, you know, that whole 100% responsibility and own it. Right, right. And it seems like you start there.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

I do. Always. I do, because you can always see how capable people are when you go there. You see it very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Are they willing, are they willing to do their work or are they not? And it's so quick because when I pin them down, they either will do it or they won't do it. And if they don't do it, I know there's no point.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

So you know, this is interesting too. Pac when I were just talking about this, because for so long in our relationship, I mean, we've been married 25 years this year.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

And well done. Right, good for him.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

That boy's a saint.

Teaser: Strong Personalities Next Month

SPEAKER_01 21:02

I knew I got there before you did. I knew you were gonna say it. Um you guys are perfect for each other.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Seriously, you are.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

But the interesting thing was for a for a long time in our relationship, my, you know, like I think it's very hard if you have a his core color is blue, secondary, white. Secondaries are important, yes, important for us because the minute I start coming on strong, which I do, yes, um, he goes to white.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

He goes white, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:35

And is not who he is. You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. Okay, just and and really what it subtext is shut up, shut up, shut up. I don't want to talk about this.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

No conflict.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Right. So so once he learned, you know, like like the words and the language, and I think that's what's so powerful here is you've got to start with that motive because the minute and I was oblivious to it, I didn't realize what was happening. And great point. Thinking, you're right, get off of get get your view, right? Get your gaze off of me. You're right. Let's go. Can we just move on with it? And I couldn't figure out why it felt unsettled in me. Yeah. Because he was telling me I was right, but that's not what I wanted.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Nope. You want a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah. I think colors are so it's so great. I mean, like you wrote a book about it, you know.

Clean Motive, Listener Feedback, Farewell

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Uh Kathy, honestly, I don't know why people do not get the color code. It is so clean and so crisp. Anybody can understand it. It's not tough, but it does go to core motive. Always. And if you're not going to go there, you're going to miss the person. Like, for example, if you've got a yellow in your life and they're not having any fun, they are going to be a different person than a white is. They don't have to have that fun. But if you are being uh having difficult conversations, yellows can do that. Whites can't. They're like, oh wow. Yeah. This is really hard. So knowing what you're dealing with is a very, very important part. If we're going to talk about this next month in my next podcast, I'm going to talk about strong personalities and how they interact with each other. And every color can be the strong one in a marriage. Everyone. Or in a personal relationship with a child and parent. Or at a boss or an employee. Every color can be the strong one or the weak one. It's about presence. So what Paco was doing was he was moving to the weak side of white instead of the strong side of blue. So you couldn't connect with him on the area you wanted so much to have, which was intimacy.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

And why wouldn't he want that? Because he's core blue? Talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Because I know the answer because we've been through it with you. Not with the damage that went on in his life. The trauma that he lived with for so long was beat out of him. Right? And it's it's sad. It's sad how many people carry baggage of what they were taught and told when they were younger. But that's for next month. Sorry. Have to drop the bomb. We'll talk about it next month.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

And we're going to talk about cliffhanger. Cliffhanger.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

We will discuss that next month.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Listeners, thank you as always. And I I love the feedback. Some listeners were so great. One of them just sent me a message from the last time saying, thank you so much for helping me understand that clean motive is about intent, not about outcome. Because when you talk to dirty people and you don't get what you think you should get, you then think, well, am I the problem then? But it's not true. As long as you're clean, the intent is what matters most. The outcome depends on lots of things.

unknown 24:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Not necessarily you. Listeners, we love you. Glad you're with us, Kat. Always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Love you. Talk to you next time.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Talk to you next week. All right.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Love you guys.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Bye bye.