You Can Build A New Life After Pain

Life can be brutal, but we’re not powerless inside it. Dr. Taylor Hartman and Cat Larson get real about what it actually takes to stop living from fear and start building a life driven by love, self-worth, and choice. Taylor also shares what’s behind his new book, Fearless, and why the hardest part of healing is often accepting that you’re already “enough” even while you’re still doing the work.

We talk about the question people ask when they’re exhausted by their past: when is it time to move on from trauma? Our answer is simple but not easy: when the energy is gone. Until then, “just move forward” can feel like abandonment. We unpack what it means to peel the onion, layer by layer, until you find the root belief that keeps pulling you back, often the belief that you’re unlovable, undesirable, or permanently damaged. From there we shift into how you create a current reality: new patterns, better boundaries, and decisions that don’t repeat old pain.

We also challenge fear-based thinking that masquerades as wisdom, like refusing to feel joy because disappointment might come next. Using the Stockdale Paradox and the idea of emotional control, we make a clear case for realism over false optimism, and for owning the parts of life we can actually change. If you care about trauma recovery, emotional regulation, mindset, and mental health that feels uplifting, this conversation is for you.

If this helps, subscribe, share it with someone who needs a new path, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What’s one fear you’re ready to replace with love today?

Take the Personality and Character Profiles at TaylorHartman.com.

Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com  Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.

Transcript

Welcome And The Fearless Book

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hello, everyone. This is Dr. Taylor Hartman with The Very Best of Living and with my good friend Kat Larson. Hello, Kat. Hello, good friend. How are you? I'm well, thank you very much. I'm actually excited about today, our podcast, for a couple reasons. I have probably not talked about this, but I have a new book that I am writing. I'm excited about it. It's called Fearless. It's how you can make your life less difficult by choosing to love instead of fear. Life. And it takes my readers through an opportunity of understanding how they see life and what they do to create difficulty in their lives that would not necessarily have to happen if they would choose love. And it talks about being enough. Like, what does it feel like really to be enough in life? Not even to prove yourself that you come fully equipped and fully capable of living life abundantly if you chose to believe that. Unfortunately, many people don't come believing that. And others are told early on in their life they don't deserve to be that. So we have a lot of work cut out. I I think it's a very exciting premise to work from. I think the readers really enjoy it's the first one in many, many years that I've actually put together. And I was just um enjoying my life so much. And then I said, you know what, you need to contribute something as well as enjoy your time. So that's where it's at. I'm probably three-fourths of the way through. So that's kind of exciting. And um our readers have something to look forward to. So I can't wait. Yeah, it'll be fun.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Well, it yeah, it's it's interesting. I just finished a book called Theo of Golden, uh, T H E O of Golden. And it was such a good read about how people can can lift other people and see what's right about them instead of always looking at the negative in life. And uh you and I were talking about uh the concept of the podcast today. I want to be focused on the positive side of life instead of always the negative. There's um two sisters that are doing a new podcast. It's on miracles that happen during crime scenes. And the reason they changed it up was they love crime scenes and they love crime podcasts. But their problem was it was always someone died at the end. It was negative, it was never a good thing. So they they shook it up to find things that actually happened, like somebody holding somebody's wound in place for them to survive long enough for them to get emotional care. So they they lived. And the idea behind it is these are still crime scenes, but what was the miracle that happened? So they're looking now at the positive. So I think that's your and my podcast a lot. Like I think that's what we're about here is how do we make mental health an uplifting positive experience? And we were talking about the pain people are coming from. So people have often said, well, when do you know it's time to move on? When is it time for you to actually move on from your trauma and live life current? And I always said to them, when the energy is gone, when you can actually let go of what happened that was so painful, then you can actually start creating a new life, a new focus in your life. So I'm thinking of uh two individuals I'm working with right now. One of them, sexually molested by her father, abused by her ex-husband horribly, put up with it, put up with it, put up with it. Now she's in a loving marriage, loves her husband, but she is screaming inside whenever there's physical affection because it all traumatizes her. And it has gotten so painful that she actually has created physical illness from dealing with her emotional stress. Obviously, we're not able to put it aside. Obviously, we have got to face this demon together. And uh, we're doing it and it's working, but it's painful, it's hard. If I were to say to her today, let's just consider that's the past to move on, I would leave her abandoned, floating on a river with no ore. She has no way of moving past the trauma yet. She's not ready for that. So we have to go back and un, we have to kind of peel the onion. We have to get things off and take them off and look at them and feel them and heal from them. And then I will be able to create for her a path free of that trauma. There's another person I'm working with who I get so close to believing we won. Like I get so close to believing we're free. And then what will happen is a memory that reminds her how she was betrayed, how she was put down, how uh someone

When Trauma Still Owns Today

SPEAKER_01 5:15

may say to her, Yeah, I I uh I was wrong for doing what I did to you, but they still did it. And so she's still torn with why was I so undesirable that it happened? And and then the last time she came to me and she said, Look, I know you know I'm I'm belaboring this. I know you know we can get over this. I'm still struggling staying alive. I'm still struggling finding reasons to be here because the weight of I am not enough is so real. And then she shared with me another example of how her husband had said to her um when he kissed her when they were they were not even dating, how he regretted that for a year. Like he wished he had not done that. Well, of course, her feeling was how horrible is that to think about that he regretted for a year kissing me. So when you come from a lot of betrayal and trauma, and then you add layers like that, I said, yes, but you married him. Like obviously he he wants you. I I know Taylor, but I also know that he didn't. So I don't want our listeners to think that I'm lighthearted about this or insensitive to it. I get the fact that things land very deeply, and for some, much more deeply than others. This woman, in my mind, her faith, I mean her heart is my great, her greatest asset. Obviously, it was wounded very deeply very early on, so it's hard for her to move on. But when we get past that, when I can actually get her to believe that those things happened, but it's not who she is, then I want to go to where you and I are going to talk about today, which is how do you create a current reality? How do you move forward with, okay, those things are real, they happened, I was damaged, but today I choose to love. Today I choose to embrace that I'm worthy, that I'm likable, that I'm capable, that I can deal with betrayal, those kinds of things, right? So it in mental health, I think too often we focus on the negative for so long, we don't ever actually repair and fix and heal. And if you were a medical doctor that never fixed somebody's arm, you'd be a quack. Like they'd say, why are you in the medical field? You don't fix anything.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

In fact, when we when we don't have answers, I have another client that I'm really struggling because she really doesn't have answers. She's been in the mail clinic and everything. They can't tell her what her real problem is. And I said, that's so painful because it's physical. But because they don't know what it is, then everybody's trying to say it's mental. Oh. But the reality is in mental health, we don't often take ownership for fixing the problem, right? So when a client is willing to do their part, I think it's my responsibility to give them a pathway to release what happened and build anew. So today we're going to talk about that. Creating a new path that works for you in your life in a much more positive way than what has happened in the past.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Got it. Can I ask a quick question? When you're working with somebody and you say we need to go back and address the layers of, is that is that a slam dunk like for people like I'm gonna go back, we're gonna talk about the pain that you went through. Do you see people uh taking the minute they address the pain, some people are able to move on and some people aren't? Do you have to stay there longer with some than others, of course? But like once you extract that piece that says, here's what you're stuck on, or here's what the pain, here's the pain. Right. Because you said we have to go and peel back the onion layers. Tell me a little bit about that process. Okay, well, for the first time. Because I think that's what's fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

I I I don't ever say that until they say that. I want to stay with today. I move forward from the minute they walk in my office. If they can't do that, then they're stuck on something. Something owns them from the past. Typically, they will be the ones that say, what you don't understand is, or here's what happened to me, or why I can't move on is. And then I'm like, okay, let's go back as far as we need to go back to unpeel that onion. But if they keep saying that didn't do it, there's more here, okay. I'll go with them until they can finally get say, okay, that is the root of my problem. That is really where it's coming from. And at that point, you got to do your work to get forward. It's so funny. I just got this wonderful note from a client that I worked with years ago. Love this woman. She is unbelievable. If people knew what she went through in her life, they wouldn't believe it. I mean, it was that bad. And when I was working with her, I just saw so much in her. And she said, I don't really believe I'm lovable. After what I have lived, I truly don't see that. And if you knew this woman, you'd go, how could she ever have believed that? Like she's so radiant. Like, so uh she lives life so out loud. But I said to her, here's the problem. You want somebody to validate you so badly that you're gonna fall

Peeling The Onion To The Root

SPEAKER_01 10:20

into the same trap as the ex-husband you finally got rid of. You must date 12 men. And my blue wife, when she heard that, was aghast. She goes, Oh, that sounds horrible for a blue to have to date 12 different men. And I said, It's not negotiable. I don't trust her. She'll make a poor call. So I said, I want you to date 12 men. And when you find the 13th man or after that, and it's magic, then we can move forward. And she wrote this incredible note about how it was true. She goes, Every time I dated, I wanted to make it real. I wanted to make it move forward with it. I wanted someone to validate me and make me okay. And when I finally did my work, which you kept calling me back saying, we're not doing our work right, let's do our work first. When I finally did my work and I found that guy, it was like magic. Like it felt so different than the other guys I had wanted to settle for. So as long as your energy is still stuck in believing things that are hurtful, that prevents you from creating a new life. But once you're able to go, okay, okay, I'm gonna trust this. I'm gonna actually give myself a chance to believe I am lovable, I am capable, that's when you start creating a new path. All right, so what would your path look like if you were not stuck in your pain? What would you do in your life? What would you add to your daily structure? Who would you invite into your life? What kinds of things would you do? And so you help create them, uh help them create a new kind of pattern path forward than what they've known in the past. That's how you do it. And somebody, by the way, won't let me do that. They just won't go forward. They won't, they're just choosing not to.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

And your and your new book, The Fearless, or uh it's fearless, right? Yeah. Yeah. So fearless. Yeah. That is kind of that's what you're hoping, not hoping, that's what you're going to teach us in your new book, is like how to get past that fear of, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

That's correct. That is correct. Great. When Scott Peck wrote his book, Life is Difficult, years and years ago, a phenomenal insight into mental health. My question was thinking about, I loved his book. I read it, I I used it, I I was thinking about it recently, and I thought, why is life difficult? Like, is it because that bad things happen to people? Things happen, right? But there's also a lot of things we make difficult. Like we do that, and we don't own that. And I'm having a problem with that. In mental health, you should own, if you're making your life more difficult, you should own. If you keep losing your keys, well then find a way to put structure in your life so you don't lose your keys all the time. Well, the same is true of mental health. If things keep happening, you pick the wrong people, you don't commit to healthy kind of living uh mindset, you don't believe in affirmations. If all if whatever's going on with you is preventing you from living life more easily, that's what this book is about. How do you learn to shift that forward?

SPEAKER_00 13:22

That's so good. I was just listening to, you know, the Scott Stockdale paradox.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah. So quickly for our listeners, do you want to explain? Well, it's just he he was a prisoner of war. Right. He was uh uh he was a general that was a prisoner of war, and and they were asking him like who made it? Who were the people that survived?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

And he was talking about the fact that the the people that or who didn't make it actually was the question, who didn't make it? And it was the the optimists, the people that said, We're gonna be out by Christmas, okay, we're gonna be out by Easter, they're gonna let us out by so as you're talking, I'm thinking about the beautiful triangle of you know, like not looking at reality, like the middle of what you're saying is here's the realistic thing. Yes, yes, because you have people that don't want to look, then you want to have people that look at just the buttons and optimists and realists, yes, yes, yes, and so your realistic view of a red, a blue, a white, and a yellow, right? How do they do it?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I and the thing that's very interesting is you don't if you don't own your emotions, if you can't control them, then they own you. And most trauma is emotional. And so if you don't develop the muscle to manage your emotions, then you can't be realistic.

Self Worth And Building New Patterns

SPEAKER_01 14:45

You're always gonna feel things.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Isn't it all emotional? Isn't all trauma emotional?

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Well, it it feels its greatest impact at the emotional level because it becomes irrational.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Oh, so it could be physical, but then it turns into like you could have trauma emotional. Okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Well, there's also intellectual. I mean, you you have other kinds of trauma that goes with this, but emotion is the most deeply rooted form that keeps you stuck. Now remember, emotion is also the very thing that gives you the greatest joy. So people who choose to be flat, they will not allow emotion because they've been so damaged. They also don't experience joy. So that's that's the downside of it. But the upside of getting in touch with your emotions and being in control of them is you can process things more realistically, like in the Paradox Syndrome. Like the reality was those people who said, I'd like to get out by Christmas, but that may not happen, they chose to live after Christmas and keep staying alive. Those who said, I'll be out by Christmas and don't, they then give up. Yes. So you so you can't manufacture these false like timelines, but you have to at least be committed to, okay, so what do I have to do to stay alive after Christmas? So what do I have to do to find meaning in my life after I'm still not happy with who I am? After I feel like I have lost time in my life, after I've been divorced twice and I'm hurting from that, after my children won't speak to me. How do I continue that path? That's managing your emotion.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

God, so good. Yeah, and we forget that, right? I mean, you do it just and the other thing you said too, it's like people want, you know, like the whole joy thing. I think we talked about this a little bit yesterday, is that I I don't want to set myself up for feeling joy, or I I'm afraid to do that because if I don't feel it or I don't feel it all the time, I can't live with the disappointment of life. Like, right? Like I so I postpone, so I I'm like, all right, well, this is great, but I don't want to get I don't want to get too excited about anything because it might not come true.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Well, let's be honest, they're fear-based. I mean the truth is they're fear-based. They're afraid of what's going to happen that's negative.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

I'm like, it's gonna happen anyway. Like, what are you talking about? Life is all ups and downs. And of course, to them, when the other shoe drops, they're like, see, I knew that was gonna happen. Like, no, you didn't. No, you didn't. You also didn't know the good thing was gonna happen. Like, the reality is you're taking ownership for something you have no control over, but you're being so negative about it and pessimistic, you find no joy thinking that you're smarter than life. I am I'm smarter than life. I can make it not happen as badly as it would happen if I thought it was gonna be great. I'm like, no, you're it's so twisted, it's ridiculous what it is. And so they deprive themselves of really enjoying simple truth, simple, wonderful moments, right? Because they're so ready for the shoot-of-all. Like it's not gonna happen. And I'm I'm the first to admit there are people who are less lucky in life. I realize that. But I have had to say to some of my clients, nothing that's happened to you is anything worse that's happened to me. So don't try and dictate to me that I should be more negative and validating of your thinking. That doesn't make any sense to me. Look at how unhappy you are. Why would that benefit me to take that approach to life as opposed to enjoying those wonderful moments, opportunities that I'm having with the positive belief system that I have. In the end, I honestly do believe things will work out. And if they haven't worked out, it's not the end. Period. That's how I see it. Whereas they would say, see, I told you before the end it would not work. I'm like, no, my mindset is very different than that. There's never, I mean, I'm 77 years old. I have never not seen life work out. I have never not seen that. I mean, that includes it. You haven't? Never. I have never not seen it. I think we get exactly what we create in our lives. No, there's death, there's divorce,

Life Is Difficult And What We Add

SPEAKER_01 18:55

there's children that are traumatized or are drug addicts. I mean, there's all sorts of horrific things that happen in life, as much as there are incredibly wonderful things that happen in life. But I think people don't own creating their reality. That's what I would say. Agree. Instead of saying, for example, I'm gonna set a workout schedule and I'm gonna follow that. And I'm not yet unrealistic in my expectations. I have to look like this, I have to have this happen, all this has to go on. If I do that, I am far more inclined to be in good physical condition than if I say, oh, if I do that, I'm sure I'll break my leg. Oh, if I do that, I won't be able to do this. I mean, all that negative kind of energy does not help you create the magic you want in your life. So I guess our first question for our listeners is what is the magic you want to create? Like, what is it you want to have happen? And I I'm grateful you mentioned um stock sale because I I love that concept. It's such a good reality check on if you want life to work for you, be realistic about what you can expect and how you can expect it, but also own the fact that you're the captain, like you at the end of the day, those men who stayed with him and died versus those men who stayed and survived, they all chose their path. And it all happened between their ears. All of it. Right? So to our listeners, I don't want you to feel like mental health should be a burden and painful. In the color code, I am very blunt. As a red, here are your strengths, here are your limitations. You may not have all the strengths, you may not have all the limitations. The gift I'm giving you is you are driven by power. Get over it. That's what you're driven by. Just accept that, right? Now you can make it a healthy or an unhealthy motive in using power in your life. But at the end of the day, I have never said to you, focus only on your limitations. Notice what's wrong with you. I have never handed someone carte blanche. Oh, if they're blue, think this way about them. You can't trust them because they'll be moody. I have never said that. And yet, people who take the color code in and then abuse it, what they're doing is they're going towards the negative instead of the positive. In fact, Kathy, I honestly believe everybody is born with enough to get through life if they do nothing. So there's enough belief I have in humanity that they can get through life just as they were born. But I also believe that if you don't do something with your life, what a waste. Like seriously, if I were at my age and all I did was say, well, you know, I'm yellow, so that's how it is. And I never grew in life, I never developed responsibility skills, I never contributed back other than just being fun in the moment, would I be satisfied with my existence? No. I would feel like I missed the opportunity that life offers. It's no different than for the person who's always a pessimist, always negative, never happy. Wants the world to feed them different food, they're believing that they were ripped off early on. Those people also don't grow. They just stay stuck in this kind of milieu of I am not being treated fairly. So I always say to people, I don't think God, by the way, is fair.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

I think God's just. And I think, in all fairness, when people say to me, I don't think God's fair and that's unf that's not right, I'm like, okay, let me talk to you about fair. Like, are you being unfairly treated or fairly? And when they go unfairly, I'm going, okay, let me give you five examples of people far less fairly treated by God than you. Now what will you say? I mean, the reality is I can't judge. I mean, you have children, I have children. If you're really fair to all of them, you you can't be because they have different needs and different expectations and different um strengths and limitations, right? But to be just, that's your role as a parent, is to be just with people. And I think that's also important for us in life to be just. Not to be fair. Like give more to some you think need it, help them, whatever, give less

Emotional Control Beats False Optimism

SPEAKER_01 23:10

to those you think are able to manage without. But don't do it out of fairness. Do it out of justness, whatever's just for them, whatever's best for them. Uh well, like when I was teaching in the university, I always wished I could give different tests to different people because there were some that were so sharp. I mean, the tests I was giving were they were for the average was no challenge.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

But at the same time, I can't make the hard ones for the ones that are average because they'd they'd be failing. So I think that God in his wisdom offers tests that are really appropriate to us individually. And then if we don't trust him, we cry out in you're being so unfair and you're being so unkind. Whereas those that are gracious are like, thank you. I get it now. I can see that now. That was a hurdle I couldn't see on my own. I get it. That was helpful. So I just think I think mental health should be positive.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

It should be something that we aspire to understanding better. It's like spirituality should be enhancing of our lives. Not like, oh, I feel so obligated and I have to do this task list and this. No, no, you need to actually embrace like how does it make your life better, fuller, richer, as opposed to, you know, all I know is what's wrong with me. All I see is what's bad about me. Now, by the way, I am not naive. I don't think people should ignore limitations. If I am late to every appointment I make, I am causing havoc in people's lives. Whether I am bothered by it or not, they are. So grow up, Taylor. Show up on time. Be there five minutes early. Get over yourself. Yes, there are things people should address in their lives if you're not loyal. Like you go with whatever's the latest uh fad for you. I mean, whether you like it or not, you're not growing. You're just going with the flow. And other people are hurting because you're not loyal. So do I think you should just say, well, it doesn't really matter? No. I think you should grow up and become responsible in your life. But if all life is negative, like every time we talk, cat, all I point out is what's wrong with you. Like all I ever say is, you know, you disappoint me every time I see you. Well, there are parents that do that to the children. Like every time they see them, they're criticizing, why did you get in MIS? They are not supporting, nurturing, developing them, right? Or whatever teachers that do the same thing, right? So I don't think the attitude should be, how can I hold you accountable? I think it should be how do I make, how do I lift you? What can I do to make your life better? And then when I built that rapport, I can say, you know, I was wondering wondering about this. Like, this is what I see you do. Is that what you mean to be doing? Or are you even aware that's what's happening? Well, by then, you can trust that I care about you. I want you to win. If I start with that, how do you trust me at all? Like all you know is that every uh every time I'm with you, I want to criticize you. So I think it's that mindset that really people should work on.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Well, and and the fact that when you're talking about creation, you know, there is, you know, your system of color code and then to character code is yes, I think probably people can get hooked into, oh, look at these limitations. I have to fix myself before I can. And then, but but like you said, you never ever lay out, hey, look at all this negative stuff about you. It it really isn't that because your first step of character, the character journey is value of

Fairness Versus Justness In Growth

SPEAKER_00 26:40

self. That doesn't come with just looking at limitations.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Great point.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

So, so I love that you already have built into something that's already there for people is the character process is creation, creating yourself in with those six competencies that you've developed.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

That was right about what's right. You know what's funny about that? I was thinking that at retreats, we would take um all of our limitations that are important to us that are bothering us. And the minute you define your top three, like these things are most damaging to me. You know the first thing we do? Okay, so tell me the antidote. Tell me the positive that you want to focus on. Once you commit to that positive word, by the way, we don't ever talk about that negative again. I don't care. Doesn't matter to me. All I care about is what's a positive you're focusing on. So it's not like a brutal negativity. It's always like stepping forward and upward, right? That's really what we're about. So I think that today I just was excited about, I'm excited about the book I'm working on because it really is about how do you step forward in love versus staying stuck in fear. I do think, by the way, some people come more fear-based than others. I do believe that. And so the challenge is greater for them. But that's because I think people have done their work before they got here, others maybe not so much. So it's an ongoing continuum. I also, by the way, told somebody yesterday who wanted to die. I said, Well, I don't think that makes any sense. Like you're still gonna go on and live. Well, I'm not so sure about that. Well, it doesn't matter. I am. You are gonna live, so get over yourself. It's gonna happen. You're gonna wake up on the other side and not have done your work. So why not do it here? And then you can die. I'm okay with that. But get yourself right first. Don't just pass on this opportunity. Life should be about growing and evolving, not taking shortcuts or wasting our energy. So that's the essence of good mental health. What can I do today to lift myself so I can lift others? That should be the mantra we have always in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Lift myself to lift others. Yeah, I I love what you did too. I mean, I think the fact that as you are lifting yourself, you know, like like at 77 years old, you mentioned is that all of a sudden you're like, wait a minute. Yeah, I mean, I can go have a blast and go to all, I can travel, I can do all these things, but something inside of you spoke to that. That's pretty remarkable in terms of relevance and purpose. I love that about your why. I think that's something that I just think it's a great leadership thing that you do. It's like, I'm just, you know, like did color code, did character code, I'm out, see ya. You know, you're you're still being relevant and and about others. I mean, some of it's about you, of course, right? Some of it's about how you want to show up.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Yeah, it is. But I I I have to tell you, it was very interesting how it just snuck up on me. I'm literally, I was just sitting there on my deck enjoying a book. And I said, you know what, you need to contribute. Like you're also you're enjoying and you're feeding yourself, and it's wonderful, but you need to come back and contribute. And it just snuck up. Like it was not like I was looking for the opportunity. As you know, writing is not my favorite thing to do. It's so isolated. But it does reward. You're absolutely right. It does, it does come back to me in that I show up more abundant, more full. You're right. You don't really lose, right? You don't.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

I love it. Uh and I thank you, you know, because it's like we benefit, all of us benefit

Lift Yourself To Lift Others

SPEAKER_00 30:15

out here from it because of, you know, because the impact. So, and I'm sure there's another book behind that one. Um I have no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

I I've I've tried to retire so many times, I can't ever say ever. Like clearly, yeah. Yeah, stop, stop saying never, Taylor. All right, we gotta quit, we gotta quit for today. It was great, always is um a pleasure. Listeners, we love you. We appreciate your thoughts and your insights and your comments. And Kat, it's always a pleasure. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Love you, bye everybody. Bye bye.