Very Best of Living
Dr. Taylor Hartman, relationship expert and Psychologist, discusses key insights that he has made over his professional career on what makes successful relationships. His work The Color Code now called the People Code is a powerful agent for positive healthy relationships both personal and professional.
Very Best of Living
Fear Less, Love More
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Highs feel effortless. Lows can feel like you’re trapped in your own head, replaying the same story, wondering what’s wrong with you. We sit down with Kat Larson to get brutally clear about what actually pulls us down the roller coaster and why “just think positive” never works when fear is running the show. Along the way, we talk about how we’ve lost simple, basic fun in everyday life and why reclaiming joy is not childish, it’s a mental health strategy.
We unpack the core idea behind my upcoming book, Fear Less, Love More: if you remove fear, you have to replace it with something better. That “something” is love in action: contribution, generosity, courage, and clean motives. We dig into real-life examples, including what happens when a family member won’t respond, why the line “it’s not about you” can be true and still painful, and how to stop assuming silence automatically means you’re not enough. We also connect the dots between fear, self-esteem, and the many masks we hide behind, like busyness, needing approval, or even arrogance.
One of the biggest takeaways is a simple diagnostic: anger is often the signal that you feel powerless, and powerlessness is where fear grows. We share practical ways to move forward, from baby steps and resourceful friends to doing the very thing you’re afraid of, plus a framework for knowing when you’re truly “clean” and free to let go. If this helps you, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s stuck, and leave a review so more people can learn how to fear less and love more.
Take the Personality and Character Profiles at TaylorHartman.com.
Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.
Welcome And Life’s Roller Coaster
SPEAKER_00Hello, listeners. This is Dr. Taylor Hartman with the very best of living, which I hope you are doing right now in your life. We have roller coasters, highs and lows. And when you're on a high, I'm sure you know exactly how good that feels, it's exhilarating. When you're on a low, uh, it can be painful and it can feel lonely and detached. And uh today we're gonna talk about some very important concepts, I think, that really have to do with how you live more at the high end, not the low end of life. And um, I'm with my good friend Kat Larson. Hello, Kat. How are you?
SPEAKER_01Good. Good.
SPEAKER_00You look good.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. I wanna I want to live at the high end every day. Can I do that? Can you do that person?
SPEAKER_00It's funny about that. I have a client that recently said to me, one of the things I miss most about my husband is he used to be fun. He was very fun. And uh he's yellow, and I think that that's very true, that yellows tend to kind of bring a fun sense of life. And they also think they should be at the high end often of a roller coaster. There's a little uh meme that was just sent to me where they're sitting at a dinner table, and one of the kids comes through the uh dining room yelling happy, ah, having a great time. All of a sudden, a kid sitting at the table gets up and follows him, screams the same thing. Then another kid, then the father, and the mother just puts her head down. And I thought to myself, it really is infectious. My my older daughter, she's red with lots of yellow, very close. And there was a thing recently where you could run people through the sprinklers. Now, I'm old enough that I remember we did that. That was fun in our day. We literally would put the sprinklers on and run through them. So she's living with these kids in this world that is all animated. And so she said to her kids, you will go and do this or you'll do chores. Take your pick, which one are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_01I'd love it.
SPEAKER_00I was so well, first of all, when I saw the meme, I thought of her, which is interesting because then she sent it out saying that's what she said to her kids. You have to either do this or you have to do chores. And I thought, isn't it in I'm proud of her, number one, but isn't it interesting we live in a world where simple basic things that make you happy we've taken away. And so I I really do want our people to think about this today, our listeners. Like, am I living at the high end of life as much as I could be, or am I in the low end? As you know, Kat, we've talked about
Simple Joys And Missing Fun
SPEAKER_00this. I have a new book coming out. I'm very excited about it. It's not a long read, it's about 200 pages, but it's called Fear Less, Love More. And originally I started the book with the idea of fear in capital bold letters, and then slanted smaller letters less, meaning learn how to be less fearful in life. Learn how to be more embracing of it, trusting it, believing in it, believing in yourself, that you are enough as you are, that kind of thing. And then I added the dimension of love more because the reality is what's the point of fearing less if you don't do anything with it? The idea is that when you take away something, it must be replaced with something else. And what you replace fear less with is loving more. I'm very excited about it. I think it's going to be one of those books that people read and go, yeah, I really I and there's very practical ideas and questions in the book for people to think about how can I, what am I most afraid of? How is that limiting my life? How can I become more generous of spirit, giving to as opposed to taking away from? Uh, because I do think we become more consumers than contributors in many ways in life. And I I think it's it's sad, but we live in a world where I think it's very critical we talk about fear and love in the same voice. So we give them like air to be be reviewed and thought about. Do I think some people are born more fear-based? Yes, I do. I think some people come more frightened of life, more uncomfortable, more unsure of themselves, and others come bold, like out the door. I was talking to uh um a niece of mine, and she goes, My son, literally, he just opens his eyes in the morning and plots his day. Like he's out and about and gone. He is gone till sunset, literally every night. He just can't, he can't control him. And it's all good stuff. It's not like like negative or inappropriate stuff. He just goes and corrals all the friends on the block and meets people and goes and does whatever. And then there's another child uh in another family member who struggles to look at somebody. Like, like this guy was working out in the gym. He's single, good looking, in great shape, wants to marry in the worst way. A woman is working out right next to him for an hour. She walks around the treadmills, she stops, she gets off, she goes back on the treadmill. She's clearly entertaining the possibility of a connection. He said, I couldn't look at her, I did not look at her the entire time. I've said, You're so fear-based. Like, here's
Fear Less, Love More Book Idea
SPEAKER_00an opportunity to have somebody to connect with and talk to. And it's not like he doesn't date, he does date, but here was a given opportunity, but he's so fearful of the interaction that he didn't do it. So we're all built very differently. And our listeners are gonna sit there and think, you're right, that's true. But I don't accept fear as the end game. I think that's what we have to push through. And I think fear typically comes for two reasons. One, you're insecure, you don't believe that you can make it successful, you can't create a positive outcome, so you withdraw. Or two, because you are self-absorbed with negativity. I don't think you give yourself the possibility of that you are enough. Like there's something about you that is always less than you need to be. And that prevents you from just believing in yourself and trusting that you're enough. I, as we know, I have a faith-based relationship with God. I think God created us. We are enough. He doesn't create junk, he's very successful in life. Why would we not believe he put us here with the idea we could win? As opposed to, well, for sure you're gonna lose, for sure you're gonna fail. That's so that helps me with my mindset. Um, what are your thoughts, Kat, on that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So let me tell you where I went when you started talking, and I'm kind of in the stuck in that corner. So I'd love to hear, I'd love you to walk me out of that corner. So I get stuck in this. So here's a big theory, not theory, it's like what what you hear a lot of is that it's it's whenever anybody gives you negative stuff or doesn't give you what you want, or I mean, I'm I'm I'm going through something right now with a family member. And it's like he he will not respond to me. Right. Um like last year, he hasn't responded to me.
SPEAKER_00And so could I could I give you his number so I can understand how that's possible?
SPEAKER_02I mean about ready to parachute in on top of his neck.
SPEAKER_00I can't understand how that's possible, but okay.
SPEAKER_02So so here's what here's what people say to me, or I pick up something and I read, and it's like it's not about you. So I'd like you to tie that in terms of self-esteem or or even self-absorption. It's not about me. Well, something's about me. There's something about me.
SPEAKER_00Well, well, wait, wait, wait. It is about you in his eyes. So you are you could be totally clean and legit, but he's the way he perceives you, or the way he perceives the interactions can happen, or whatever he has to own in the process, may be what's keeping him back. Okay. That's what I'm honestly believing is you're making it about you, and in fact, well, it may be about you, but not as you're thinking. You're thinking, as by the way, many people do, it must be something I'm doing. Well, it actually could be something good you're doing. Like the reality is you threaten him, you make him uncomfortable, you want to discuss things he doesn't want to discuss. It could be any of those kinds of things. But to assume that it's a negative about you is where you get in trouble. Hmm stems from him.
SPEAKER_02So the other thing that I look at as you're talking about fearing less, and I think as you go into colors, the fear is my fear is I'm of course yellows like to be adored. So there's that. And then then the inclusion piece. Like he goes and he, you know, he he talks to my siblings, he talks to, you know, he talks to my other brothers and sisters, and he talks to all this and that. And and everybody kind of has this I I don't know, you know, thing. And so which is which is okay. I they don't know. And so I think as you're talking about the fear, if you look at colors, yeah, I have to spend a second there when you said it's it's either self-absorption and what was the other thing you said? Self-esteem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right?
SPEAKER_00So you're either insecure or you don't think you're good enough.
SPEAKER_02You don't think you're good enough. So that's driven by color.
SPEAKER_00Would you think so?
SPEAKER_02A red doesn't often don't think they're good enough.
SPEAKER_00Reds are so secure that if you don't want them, they won't want you. And yellows are very similar. Very similar.
SPEAKER_02So there's something wrong with mead there.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh are you telling me that you're thinking I'm not enough for him and that's why he doesn't call you?
When Someone Ghosts You
SPEAKER_02That's a good question. No, I'm thinking, um, I used to believe, Taylor, that that reach out, repair, communication. I used to think before this incident this last year, that I I had the power to solve anything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, wait a minute. Well, it it may it may be arrogance, but it may also be true. Like the reality is maybe you do have a kind of relationship in life that you typically can reach out and repair anything. And and I think you have that gift, by the way. But however, I also believe in agency. And I think people have a right to be inadequate, a right to be a jerk, right to be distant, a right to be dysfunctional. And I think that's what your is being, quite frankly. Because if you can't even have a conversation about it, then I think that's on him. I mean, but don't get me wrong. I mean, I have people in my life I don't want in my life. They're not healthy, they're not, they're toxic, they're uh selfish. But I have a conversation. They know I am cutting them out. Like they understand you don't have a place in my life because who you are is not good for me.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you know what? I can't wait till your book comes out. Because here's what here's here's what I get excited about is the fact that what's the right thing to do? You just said it, which is here's you know, forgiveness and what we do, and do I have the right to say that? And if they come back, let them in, and fearing that I'm not in fearing I want to fear less that I'm out of integrity or legitimacy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Because I do see you're vulnerable, I'm done. To thinking that you, in fact, are the problem because you're not forgiving enough.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00You're not okay, that's good. And people can use that on you, right? And and my reaction is what I would say to your is good luck, get your act together. When you're willing to be a human being, let's have a conversation. But until then, I mean you don't have to say it, just move on with your life. But you know you're clean. But don't assume that because you're clean, therefore others in your life will be clean too.
SPEAKER_02So you asked, you asked me, I took us down this road, but I think it's really important because I want hey, what I think is important as you're talking is I think this how this is how people get into fear, not love. Right. Right. Because they go down this road and there's so many places to get to drive.
SPEAKER_00I track. Yeah. I agree with that. I think it's I think oftentimes, first of all, people don't identify the fear. They don't really own what is it I'm afraid of. Oh. I mean, that's as a shrink all these years, and people have such fear around going in and opening up with someone they don't know. And that fear may be grounded in they had a bad experience. That fear may be I don't trust people. It may be a number of things, but it's still fear. Right. So once you push through that with the confidence that if I go to a shrink and it's a bad experience, I can still move on in my life. That doesn't define me. That just defines our relationship wasn't right, it wasn't good. Or my timing was off. I wasn't ready for it, or I picked the wrong shrink, or a number of things. But unless you push through that, you're not clean. Once you're clean, you're free to move on. You're free to let go. That's the beauty of like divorce. People that do it well, they really do just let go. I no longer have to make you the priority in my life. I I it's not working, it doesn't make sense, it hasn't worked, I'm gonna make the right and move on. And people that do that with clean motives are happier always.
SPEAKER_02Can I ask a question here? If if anger comes up for me, because that's what it feels like. I mean, it starts with anger, of course.
SPEAKER_00That's powerlessness.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's
Agency, Boundaries, And Staying Clean
SPEAKER_02powerlessness. Is that the is that my thing? I'm in fear, and that's the moment I want to flip to love. And what's the thing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, anger. Anger is always a good indicator that you're in fear. Okay. Uh, when I do the anger cycle, I always tell people that you will never get angry unless you're powerless. Like if you and I are doing this podcast and everything's going great, not a problem, we know that I'm a technical wizard. Like I can do anything technically. Lie. The reality is I would rather deal with a bear than have a technical problem. And so if there's a technical problem, I will immediately go into fear because I have no clue how to fix it. So if you're in in life, if you have mental health strength, you don't operate in fear very often because you can solve it. You can figure out a way around things, right? If you don't have that ability, then you're like me with a technical glitch. So the stronger you can become with yourself, the more comfortable you are with I can find this uh workaround, I can make this work, I can let you go, for example, I can wait till you're ready to come back, I can do whatever. But if I can't do that, I'm powerless. I need you to want me. I need you to act interact with me. I need this. As long as I'm needing that and you're not responding, I'm fear-based.
SPEAKER_02So I need you to want me. I need you to need me. This sounds like a song. Um, it is a song, by the way. Um to want me.
SPEAKER_00Um move on.
SPEAKER_02So why is that fear-based?
SPEAKER_00Is it relationship? Because you let it own you. It's not wrong to want someone. Right. Right? But when you need them to the point that if they don't respond, you then get angry. You're uh you're living in fear. Like people have the right not to want you, not to need you, right? Mind blow. So I mean that's that's the problem. I mean, a lot of us get into, we don't realize that we're creating the problem by living in fear. And that, like when the in the book, I write about the many masks of fear. There are so many masks of fear. And I think people don't even recognize the masks they're wearing that are fear-based.
SPEAKER_02Can you talk about some of those?
SPEAKER_00Pardon me?
SPEAKER_02Can you talk about some of those?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like the mask of busyness. Like I I'm always busy, therefore, you can't. I'm I'm afraid that if I'm not busy, I won't be important. I'm afraid that if I'm not busy, I'll realize nobody cares about being with me. I'm I'm so uncomfortable being alone that I keep busy all the time. Now I'm not going anywhere, doing anything, right? The fear of not being enough. Like, there's so many different masks that you've that you uh the I the fear that I'm more important than you. I have my my arrogance. I mean, it's so amazing the masks that people wear. And when they read the book, they'll be like stunned. You'll be able to kind of really kind of highlight, oh, yeah, that's a that's one of my masks. I do wear that one. Because I don't want to look at fear, I wear a mask. It doesn't change the fear, it the still fear is in place, right? Now, if you're not careful, you spend your whole life in fear in many aspects of your life. I I'm working with a client right now. He and this guy would be a perfect match. Like they are so meant to be, it's unbelievable. But he is in a very sick relationship with a woman who is destructive. And he is so afraid on so many levels of letting go of that sick, dysfunctional relationship that he will
Anger As A Fear Signal
SPEAKER_00not free himself to move forward. And in the process, he's killing all sorts of possibilities until he can own the fear. And by the way, this man is brilliant in business. I'm talking billionaire. He does not have fear at all professionally. But when it comes to personal, he's a different animal. And that always intrigues me, by the way, Kat. People that are like so good in one area and so not good in another area. And and I've seen it both ways. People that are very good personally, but boy, they are good at the career world and they fall apart. But anyway, in his situation, his fear has stymied any possibility for growth. And my client's problem is she must let that go. If she doesn't, then her fear of not being able to connect will destroy her. So she has to move on. And she had such a powerful experience I'm going to share with you. I was so moved by this. She doesn't live in fear at all. She couldn't understand why this man couldn't do the right thing, why he was so paralyzed in fear. And she was walked into her apartment, there was a cockroach. She said, Taylor, I'm afraid of nothing. Give me a snake, I'll deal with it. There's nothing that would bother me. This cockroach was so big, I literally sat on my bed paralyzed for an hour. I could not move because I was so fear-based. I was so frightened of this cockroach. For one hour, it was a gift from God because I realized for the first time, oh, this is what he feels. He is paralyzed of something I'm not paralyzed by. I get the answers, I know what to do about it, move forward, press forward. But with a cockroach, I understood for the first time with compassion what that felt like. So for all of our listeners, I was so moved by her sharing that experience because it just enlightened how receptive she was to understanding his predicament that was not an issue for her. She was not fear-based about it at all, by having another situation which was frightening to her, such that she was paralyzed. So to our listeners, if you're paralyzed by something, what do you do with that? Yeah. How do you work through that as opposed to remaining stuck?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. Oftentimes we talk about baby steps. I mean, I do believe in baby steps. Sometimes it's just reaching out to a friend to process it so you can get over it. Sometimes it's
The Many Masks Of Fear
SPEAKER_00considering what are some options that I might use that I can't think of right now. I love people uh in my life that are resourceful. They're very clever. Like um, I don't I don't have a lot of fears, so I don't really have to have a lot of resources to come up with answers. Some of these people are more fear based than I am, but their answers for getting out of fear are phenomenal. I'm I'm like, that was a good idea. I like that idea. So go to your friends that have resourceful ideas. Here's an idea you might use. The second one, the one I use the most, is be proactive. Go do the very thing you're afraid of. You'll find that. It's it's got less control than you think it does once you try it. It's not as bad as you thought it was going to be. In your mind, you create this horrendous thing that's going to happen that rarely ever happens. And so it's really, really helpful to kind of face it and deal with it. And then the other one I always talk about is why don't you focus more on what things you love and you care about and see if this fear is preventing you from doing those things. Like if you don't want to look stupid, you don't want to look foolish. So that's a fear. But if you really love to skydive, then maybe the reality is go do the thing you love, and that lessens your fear of looking foolish. Like, yes, you might look like a fool, but you don't care because what you have is passion for doing the skydive. So if you love a child or you love a person, go be foolish. Go do the things that are awkward for you. Uh be uncomfortable because your passion is you love them. You want them to know that they care you care. That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if this is just me, but here's what keeps coming up for me is as you start taking these baby steps to process it, that doesn't mean um I think I tap out sometimes too early in a strategy because it's like, well, this isn't working because I don't feel better today, you know. And I'm just wondering overall, I know everybody's different, but like, do you have like a give it a year, give it six months? Some people do it in three weeks, some people do it in two years. Is that what you see in your world?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I do see that, by the way. That's a very good point. I I I usually use clean motive as my tap out. If your motives are clean for a period of time, then I think you can tap out. If your motives are still clouded with fear or dirty motives, no, you're not ready yet. You haven't done your work yet. And I do believe, by the way, it's different depending on the situation. And by the way, the healthier you get in life, the quicker you can assess that. The quicker you're able to go, no, this isn't about me. This is their issue, not mine. If you're not really clear about that, you have your own mental health to work on for a while. And so I say to people, that's fine. Just put it on hold, work on you, get yourself right, and then when you're stronger, go back and face that issue. But I we don't we don't talk about really good mental health, what it feels like. It's so freeing when you know, okay, I'm clean. This is not about me, this is somebody else. I think people are baffled
Paralyzed By Fear And Finding Compassion
SPEAKER_00with that because they so many people I talk to don't know that. They're not clear on am I clean or am I dirty?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And and that's our society's done a very poor job of helping people get that. It's almost like like, you know, the fitness thing you're going through right now and stuff, you're learning things that most people never talk about, never learn about. There are struggles you go through by embracing this correct path. People that are mocking you, even people that are resentful of you, all sorts of things are coming up that would never come up if you'd stayed with the masses. I think mental health is very similar. There's just things you know and learn when you really develop good mental health that the world doesn't know. The masses don't know, and they settle into this kind of sad progression in life that those of us with stronger mental health can go, that is ridiculous. I can't even see why you would think that's okay. It's I mean, forgive me for being political for a minute, but when people go into believing that communism or socialism is better than capitalism, they're not even willing to read the tea leaves. Like I am well aware there are some people who make more money than they need, and people who have less money than they need. I get that with capitalism. It is not a perfect system. But show me one place ever in the history of humanity where socialism or communism has blessed the lives of people over time. You can give me nothing. There is crickets. And yet people still think, oh, but this time it'll be different. Well, no, it won't be because the foundation of it is not legit. And that's what I don't I don't understand why with mental health. I feel the same way about it. Uh, we're gonna talk about this in our next uh podcast about gentle parenting. Like, gentle parenting never was going to work. In a million years, it wouldn't work. Now, those of us with good mental health knew that the minute it came out. Like it was like, no, you're missing an element that's very critical called accountability. Uh you're playing to the person, identify your feelings, that's wonderful, but there's no accountability for inappropriate feelings. Right? So that that's where they messed up. So then they built a tribe of people that are not resilient at all. They can just identify feelings,
Baby Steps, Proactivity, And Passion
SPEAKER_00they can't deal with them. But anyone with good mental health would have known that when they first heard it. It would not have made sense to them. My problem, Kat, is that I find so many people don't have that foundation of good mental health. I don't care whether you're wealthy, I don't care if you're religious, I don't care if you're physically fit, none of that stuff is the same as good mental health. You know? So those don't indicate for me that you have good mental health, poor or rich, religious not, I don't I don't care. What I care about is do you understand the principles of good mental health? So that you can actually assess in a situation, am I fear-based or am I love based right now? Where am I coming from? And then knowing what is the right path, you you take it. As opposed to, like you mentioned earlier, the many side streets that you can take these little that you take in life, and you end up at a dead end and you're frustrated one more time. I thought I was doing everything right, I thought it was good, why didn't it work out? And I'm like, well, you didn't have a foundation in the first place. Your whole intent behind why you took that side street was fear-based. It was never going to be love-based, and it was never gonna end up positive. So that's the kind of thing I think our listeners really need to work on. Now, I'm gonna tell our listeners something else. So if you're interested in getting a signed copy of my new book when it comes out, probably be out like in four or five months, right? You can write to us and ask for that to happen and do a pre-order. And Kat, I'll leave that in your hands. You simply go to terrahharboin.com and you can then let us know that you're interested and you like signed copy to who? Who do you want the signed copy to go to, right? You can even tell me what you'd like it to say. I'm open to that too, right? Uh, but I'm very excited about this because I really believe the world needs more about love than about fear right now. I think fear is causing chaos and confusion and conflict that doesn't need to be. And so I want less of that, more of the love, more of the abundance, more of the life is working for me, more of the I'm at the top, I'm at the high, not the low. Right. Right, right. Okay, we're done for this week. That's it. Over and out to our wonderful listeners. Thank you, as always, for listening like you do, and for being with us on this ride. And we will see you next month with a new podcast that will be on dealing with discomfort in life, how that can enhance the quality of your life.
SPEAKER_02That sounds great. And to our listeners, go to taylorhartman.com. You will see the pre-order signed copy. It'll all be right there. Just go there. There'll be a tab, click on it, and you can fill in how many books you want, what you want it to say, so we can get it ready for you. And I'll I'll actually put it in the notes also for this podcast.
SPEAKER_00Good job. Thanks, as always.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Listeners, we love you. Thanks for watching. See you now. Bye
Clean Motives And Mental Health Basics
SPEAKER_00now.