CRMs and customer data platforms (CDPs) can store a mountain of customer data, but that does not automatically translate into better experiences. In this CX Today panel, Ben Robinson, Head of Technology at Fair Finance, Amory Somers Vine, Head of Custome

CRMs and customer data platforms (CDPs) can store a mountain of customer data, but that does not automatically translate into better experiences. 
In this CX Today panel, Ben Robinson, Head of Technology at Fair Finance, Amory Somers Vine, Head of Customer Experience at Expereo, and John Cheney, CEO of Workbooks, discuss what it takes to move from systems of record to systems of action.
The conversation digs into why many CRM programs still fall short, including heavy customisation, siloed ownership, and metric choices that prioritise internal efficiency over customer outcomes. The panel also explores how automation and generative AI can help teams act on insights faster, from proactive service monitoring and case creation to summary-driven support experiences that reduce agent effort and speed up resolution.
If you are rebuilding your CRM strategy, aligning CX and IT, or figuring out where humans must stay in the loop, this is a practical, grounded discussion with clear takeaways for enterprise CX and contact center leaders.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Hello and welcome to CX Today, where we've been covering enterprise investments in CRM and CDP platforms to capture and store customer data. But it's clear that just storing data doesn't improve customer experience necessarily. What we're seeing now is a shift in expectations from systems that document interactions to systems that actively shape them in real time. At the same time, many AI initiatives focused on efficiency, automation, deflection, cost reduction. And that phase delivered value, but it also revealed the limits. And so the next phase is about using data and AI to drive revenue retention and more meaningful customer engagement. So that's what we'll explore in our panel discussion today: how to move from those passive records to primitive systems of action. So let's start with our introductions. So we've got Emory Somersvine, Director of Customer Experience Experio. Welcome, Emory. Do you want to tell us a little about your role?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Sure, hello everyone. So Xperio is a global managed network provider. We work with multinational organizations across the world to enable them to connect their people, their sites, and their cloud platforms and environments through internet connectivity solutions. So hopefully we'll bring some really interesting insights for the audience, especially for those of you interested in the world of B2B experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Absolutely, thank you. And then we have Ben Robinson, who's head of technology at Fair Finance. Welcome, Ben.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Thank you very much. So my role is kind of overseeing the entire architecture for Fair Finance as an organization. So the mission of that is as a social credit lender, and that is to kind of service the most vulnerable people in society that can't achieve credit through uh big banks or get taken advantage of by your payday loan sharks. So our our kind of iteration of CRM is is perhaps a unique position at this stage. Um so actually, based on today, I think it's going to be quite an interesting uh conversation and looking forward to sharing those those insights.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Absolutely, thank you, Ben. And then we have John Chaney, who is CEO and founder of Workbooks.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

Hi, everybody. Um Yeah, so Workbooks, we're a CRM vendor, so I guess with a with a supplier on this call. Uh we really specialise in providing CRM solutions into mid-sized companies. So for lots of our clients, we're actively trying to help them turn CRM from a sort of passive platform into something that's much more action-driven. So, yeah, really looking forward to today's call.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Great, thank you. So, yeah, thanks again, three of you, for joining. So, um, I'd like to begin with you know where things stand today. So, where do you see you know current CRM or CDP setups falling short, perhaps when it comes to actually improving customer outcomes?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

I I think probably from our perspective, we have um been heavily customizable, I think. And um, you know, we use uh Dynamics 365, which you know has heavy customisationable options. Um, I think we've probably had some challenges through that. Um so I I think probably where we were when I walked in 18 months ago to where we are now is a very different picture. Um, I'm not gonna sit here and say I'm a serum expert by any stretch, but what we have done is we've kind of stripped back, I think, the way dynamics works for us. Um, and it probably works slightly different to what I would call a sales platform. You know, fair finance as a business doesn't effectively sell, even though it offers products by loans. So um, you know, we're we're kind of had to take it back and understand, I think, where um it really works for us. And that is something that has taken a lot of time, it's taken some some blood, sweat, and tears, you know, perhaps um not always on my part, but you know, I still kind of oversee what that that looks like. Um, but actually we're in a much better position now than than kind of where we were um you know nearly two years ago. So yeah, yeah, I I think it's really interesting, kind of in the terms of you know, context of this call, that you know, we've kind of got different um perspectives. Um, you know, we're we're kind of very much serving servicing the customer, but um you know it's it's kind of I think very interesting to see how that weighs up against you know Maury and John's views, I think.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

So shall I go next? Um so so I guess you know we have hundreds of customers, uh, and I think if if we start with you know where is CRM or CDP now, where's it falling short? Well, for a lot of customers when we first started with them, it was just a repository of data, and often just a repository of data for one bit of the business, right? So it was either the customer services CRM, or it was the sales CRM, or it was the marketing CRM. Um, and even in that world, there's very little proactive information coming out of the CRM platforms, and it really only had a subset of the data of the interactions they were having. Because again, particularly mid-sized companies, uh as they grow, they tend to have solved technology problems in departments rather than looking at it holistically across the business. And really, to get some of the insights and actions that you can now get, you really need to have all of the customer interactions and the data points in an accessible place. So, so for lots of our clients, I think the starting point was let's get the data in the same place so we can actually even begin to start doing some of those things. So I think for lots of people, whilst the utopia is let's have a CRM that actually tells us what to do, for it to do that at the at the starting point, it really needs the data in there or at least accessible to it. And that for me is where I think lots of people are still falling short. They haven't made that leap from well, we've got a sales platform and we've got a marketing platform, but we don't really have a 360-degree view of what we do with customers. So again, some companies are much more advanced, but I would say that's where lots of people are, and they're kind of on the journey to how do we deliver something that's much more automated and proactive.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah. I mean, I think when you the the the the key to the answer is uh you know is actually in the question. Um, you know, where does where where does uh CRM fall short when it comes to improving customer outcomes? And I would say certainly uh you know, in most of my experience, whenever I've seen these systems being set up, they're set up with internal metrics. Uh that they're not actually started with customer outcomes uh in mind. So I think that's probably one of the uh the real paradigm shifts that needs to take place is are you actually setting up your system for customer outcomes? Most of the time we're setting it up, as John has said, for you know, some sort of functional uh requirement. Um and I, you know, and I definitely see um that siloed problem um really then you know being exacerbated. You know, so many organizations will invest in the best in class tool for each functional area of their business as opposed to the system that is going to actually give them end-to-end management of their customer journey. And I think that's a real shift as well. We work in one system across the entire journey from uh you know from Rumor um all the way through to uh to cash. Um so you've got to be able to you know find your customer, uh recruit your customer, and uh you know, quote, win that business, uh deliver the service, uh support that customer and invoice and be able to see all of that um uh in one place. And for me, there's even one stretch further, and that is at what point you actually give your customer the ability to come back in and uh you know and impact the data that's in your uh in your system as well, because at the end of the day, actionable customer data belongs to the customer, uh uh, you know, in in my mind.

SPEAKER_04 8:11

I think it's really interesting what you say. So one of the things that we do with with new customers is we put them through this little workshop exercise, and we always talk about four four outcomes for CRM. And the one that they tend to skip over is the customer experience one, right? They all want to talk about revenue growth because that's that's they want to talk about reducing operational cost and streamlining business process, but the customer experience one is the one that often doesn't get much focus because everyone thinks they kind of do a good job for their customers. Very few people I talk to ever say, Oh, we do a really poor job for our customers. But they don't very often ask their customers what what what what's what their perception really is. I so I agree with you that you know starting to look more at the whole problem from the customer's perspective is a really valuable approach to working out how you can help them help you do things more efficiently.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

I think that's the key to the next question that I was going to ask actually, because um, you know, as you're saying that there are, you know, people are kind of at different places on this journey, but what would indicate that a system is still acting you know as a system of record rather than a system of action? Is it that they're not getting that customer feedback? Are there other factors in play there?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

I I like to answer this question actually by by being a customer. I mean, we we're all we're all customers uh every day. Uh and quite frankly, I mean, how many times have you sat in an interaction and gone, well, don't you know this information? Or haven't I already told you that? Or am I favourite? I had it this last week. Please hold whilst I look at your record. You know, I mean, for me, if you're saying if you're saying any of those things to a customer, uh you have a system of record and not a system of action.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yeah, it's an interesting way of looking at it actually, because um, you know, I think with all the kind of challenges we've had with with CRM in particular, we're we've had to redefine that journey. Um, and I think also the fact that you know, I'm sure it will come up in this conversation. I think it comes up in every conversation that I've had in in you know this calendar year. AI and automation have a real big impact now. And actually, I think where we sit at l in this is that you know we have a system or you know, a kind of journey actually that means we have to understand uh a customer's needs and requirements because of I think where they are and and why they they need our help. So, you know, we've had to really kind of finely balance, I think, that against um, you know, against kind of the introduction of automation. We do have it, but also I think there's kind of for us there's an all sort of manual part to this, um, which actually again, like I say, we've had to redefine over time. So um yeah, so it's a really interesting uh question. And like you say, you're you're totally right, you know, we are all customers, and you know, I I also have seen the same thing where you know you you kind of have those interactions and say, well, actually um you should know this already, but they still don't, and you know, what is being done to actually um enable them to understand that better. So yeah, really, really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

And I actually think there's two different perspectives, right? So there's the perspective of how do we make a CRM platform create action for the CRM users, i.e., the company that's purchased it, and then the flip side of that, because which is what you're talking about, which is how do I make it help the customer get the answer they want more quickly or solve their particular business process problem? And again, I think partly because of the way the technology landscape is set up, and and I'll put ourselves in the same bucket. Software vendors sell to companies about the features and functions that we've got often. We try not to do too much of that, but they get very wrapped up very quickly at all. Here's all the cool stuff that we could do internally to streamline our business process. Uh, and and there's absolute value in that. So I'm not suggesting your CRM shouldn't provide actionable insights for your internal teams to do their jobs more effectively or will be much more proactive. Um, but you also need to consider the other side, right, which is the actual insights that it can provide for the customer at the other end of the experience. So I hope you answer your question. If I'm honest, I think most CRMs are still predominantly a system of record, but with some exceptions. So there are some particular workflows where they are providing actionable insight, and most common ones are in marketing, actually, because you've got the workflow of uh they've interacted with this content, let me do an automated workflow that then follows that up and maybe sends a note to a sales rep or something like that. You know, that's increasingly common because that was an automation and action that was coming in from the marketing hub, if you like, and now is being more broadly adopted. So I think there are pockets of it, but I think there's a long way to go to turn most CRM deployments from a system of record into something that can actually do something proactive. And I agree with you, Ben. AI is going to be a significant enabler around a lot of this.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's it's dominating every conversation. You know, it's it's not just in CRM, it's you know, like I say, I I I have regular conversations weekly with, you know, internally, externally. It doesn't seem to matter. It's now it's in the here and now. And I think the other thing with it is it's changing so rapidly on a daily basis, not not weekly or monthly or yearly. You know, we're we're we're seeing those changes so so rapid that um you know we have had to really adjust you know the way that that customer journey in particular uh now is end-to-end. You know, so um yeah, I don't see it kind of making things worse. I think it it will provide that proactive approach, but I think for us as a business, we're we're just taking it steady and slow and and kind of just trying to really um be gentle with our kind of introduction of AI because you know it's not just for the consumer, it's also for our our internal teams, uh, you know, our underwriter and the customer services, they also have to adapt to those changes and what that looks like.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

So yeah, definitely that's something that has come up um in my conversations with people is you know, of course, there's the enthusiasm about you know, we want to get this new technology and get it in the hands of people, but it is a big adjustment for the employees as well as the customer, you know, if they're dealing, like we've mentioned, you know, with a an AI-based system that isn't reacting in the way that the customer wants it to, it is quite an adjustment. So I think that's um you know, obviously a very sensible approach to take it slowly rather than move fast and break things, which is the other approach that I hear a lot about. Um, and I think that ties in nicely to, you know, as we've mentioned, about reacting to customer behaviour. And um, John, you also mentioned an example of marketing, um, of you know, a way of approaching this. So, what do you think um an actionable CRM system might look like in practice, like as the next step from where we are now?

SPEAKER_04 15:21

Yeah, I mean we have we have quite a few customers doing this stuff. Uh, and I think that the way I always encourage them to think is if you had a bit more time in your day, what would you do to make sure that whatever process you've got is better? So, for example, um, for some of our technology customers, some of the sorts of things that we built for them are taking feeds in from their software platforms on things like uh logins, touch points inside the application, you know, basic, basic stuff. They've got the data that they've got and say, well, if we know people aren't logging in, that's probably a problem, right? So rather than waiting until the renewal comes around in 12 months and they don't want to buy your product next time around, why don't we use the information you've already got to drive automations and workflows that will allow your team to proactively reach out and try and help the customer with whatever issue is that they've got. So I think the starting point is often, because if you had enough time, you'd do that, right? If you had enough time to go through to all the data you had in your business and go, I really want to know which of my customers aren't logging into the platform, then you would do it. But you don't have the time. So what the technology does, and this is where AI will allow you to do it more quickly, is allows you to get information and analyse it much more quickly and make decisions on that to drive someone to go, okay, that might be a problem, we should go and look at it, or that might be an opportunity, we should go and look at it. Um, it I don't think we're quite the level in many cases where you can go, oh, there's a problem, I know what the problem is, I know what the answer is. But if you can give the users, or in our case, our customers, the ability to identify things that are going on in their business that they can't see because they just don't have the data in the right place or they don't have the visibility in the right place. That's what good looks like to me. And the marketing one was, I guess, the one that a lot of people did quite early on. But for for us, there's lots of stuff in customer service, for example, where you can use the information that you've already got. Customers aren't logging tickets, right? Is that because they're really happy, or are they no longer buying your stuff and moving away? Uh, and the that those are the sorts of questions I think we encourage people to think about. So that's that for me is a good next step.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

So I've got an example, I suppose, which which really kind of expands on that and and the way in which we're doing that in our business. Um so uh if you reflect for yourself personally on your uh your internet connection at home, if you have any sort of power glitch or power outage, you're gonna lose your internet connection. Uh, quite often, if that power returns, your internet restarts and you're okay. Um now this happens around the world all the time for our customers. You know, power's up and down, internet uh connections are up and down, um, and we're monitoring our customers' systems all the time. We're looking for, you know, we're looking for that, we're looking, you know, to check that their um their systems uh return to functioning and uh and and they work. So now we're feeding that information in um so that we can actually proactively get ahead of uh of our customers even having to create a case. So your system goes down, I create a case automatically. And we've been doing that for a while. Um, but what we what uh what we've really enhanced recently is to say, well, hold on, now I've raised a case, now my agent has to go and work that case. But actually, in all likelihood, you know, your service is restored. So, how do I automate the rest of the process so that actually that entire system um can take place? And really, my agents only have to go and work on the case where where where you haven't restored your service, and you know, and now I need to actually apply my expertise to help solve your problem. So, you know, that means that we've been able to to to really kind of take a data feed in, tie that to our customers' information, be able to say, well, hold on, is this happening repeatedly? Is this a once-off issue? Um, you know, is this actually something systemic wrong with your line, or is this just a power issue and actually automate that whole process? And uh it's delighted our teams because it was a very boring, mundane, repetitive task for them. Um, you know, freed up a lot of time because it's a it's a it's a regular uh issue. And for the most part, our customers are getting a notification that their service is fixed before they've even noticed that it went down.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

That's an interesting one. I'm just trying to think about how that kind of relates to what the journey that we have, the customer interim journey. So our customer service teams, you know, we have seen an uptick in the amount of applications that they're able to deal with on a daily basis and underwriter team. So um as we talked about, automation makes that a little bit easier. Uh you know, I think I said earlier that it's we do have manual um process still, but actually, you know, we we have really benefited from the kind of adoption of automation and AI, and and as I said, we are gently bringing it in, but it is part of the journey already. Um but yeah, it's a really interesting one. It's um yeah, we're we're kind of doing things perhaps in a different way, but it actually, you know, we're uh I think unique in our approach, um, but very different, I think, to where we were, like I said, 18 months ago. So um, but that that's a short time frame as well, you know, it's a short space of time that we've made lots of kind of positive change.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

So the other thing I'll take to that is I think the challenge in B2B and B2C is a bit is a bit different. Um I think in B2C actually it's almost easier to justify the investment in some of these areas because you're doing you've got that one-to-many thing going on, right? So you've got the same problem for a lot of people, and therefore, if you can automate it and make it more reactive or proactive, then I I want to call your system self-healing now, that's the right word for it, right? It fixes it fixes itself. Um, but yeah, that's great, right? Because that's real value for your customer, and it's real value for you because you're not having to you're not having to spend the time doing the work as well. I think the B2B world, it's it's often a bit more complicated because they don't have that high volume of predictable, high problem process going on, and therefore they often get lost beyond the sort of basics of proactivity. Um, you know, how do you how do you really get insight with customers that perhaps are interacting at multiple levels across sales and marketing customers all of the time, not just on a sort of more more traditional B2C model. But yeah, I love your example, it's great.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, definitely. And I also um you know, thinking about what um you were saying, Ben, about with you know implementing AI and like 18 months, it like it it's not a long time, but in AI now it feels like a very long time. Um but uh you know, in the conversations that I'm having as well, it's kind of this question that keeps coming up about. Okay, if you're going to hand over certain things to AI, at what point should the customer trigger uh, you know, a human intervention rather than leaving it in the automated process? So I was wondering if you have any thoughts. I'm sure Avery, you will be able to follow up on that as well, but how should companies be thinking about that?

SPEAKER_00 22:21

I think it um really relies on what the customer needs and wants. I think because of the business that, you know, or the business that we're part of and what we do, actually we're kind of heavily reliant on what they need and what what they're looking for from us. So actually, we we still have to have that kind of manual intervention at some stage in the customer journey because every case is is different. Okay, we do kind of um service that vulnerable customer base, but actually we still need to ensure that we um we look at every case differently. Um so I don't think we'll ever be fully automated. I think there are parts of the journey that actually will will rely heavily and if not basically on automation um you know for for however long we we kind of do it. But it I don't think we can ever do that fully manually just because of what we're doing. Um, you know, that that example is is unique to us. You know, these guys might might kind of say something entirely different, and that that's you know, that that's quite right. But it I think for us in particular, you know, we are we will never get to the point where we're fully automated, but there are parts of the journey which will be taken over completely. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

I I I echo, Ben. I uh it's uh for for us, it's the same. I mean, we you know, we position ourselves as a managed service provider, uh, and you know, your your your customer is is a company, but is it really? I mean, it's it's the individuals that you work with in the core context who you know whose jobs rely on the fact that you're going to deliver for them and and and deliver the service, you know. So so it's it's it's this complex mix in you know of of of human and and and organization. And so when I look at it, and when I mean even when we describe our ideal customer experience, we talk about it being platform-driven um but expert, um, expert-enabled. And for us, it is always a you know, a technology and a and a and a human um uh together. You know, I want to be able to make sure that you can see the information you need to see, that you can that you can feel empowered, you know, even if you're not talking to someone, but I want to blend that with a human being that you trust, uh, you know, an organization that you trust, and uh because there could be sort of complex, you know, multinational um, you know, um organizations and um and contracts that we run. So I think you know, we we've got to find the blend of people and technology to make this work.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah, I I agree. Sorry, John, I I agree. I I think it's uh I you are totally right, and I don't think we're 100% yet there yet with the decision-making part of automation. I think that still solely rests with a human generally, especially for what we do. So we will always have that manual intervention at that part of our journey because um it still needs someone to decide actually do we approve or decline this loan application? Um but yeah, I I I I think you're totally right. You know, I'm is it about the organization or is it about the person? Actually, yes, it is, because in my boat, you know, we've gone through what I would call a digital transformation, and we're still kind of going through that at the moment, not solely on CRM. Um, but ultimately most of those decisions come down to me and rest with me as much as you know, we're we're talking about putting all these great tools in, these platforms, changing things, you know. Um actually I decide what that looks like from a business perspective, and I present that back to you know the C-suite or the other of the senior management team, and and you know, as long as they feel again that that words, you know, Nicole that you said, outcomes, as long as the outcomes kind of are fulfilled and we're actually we're we're providing a real impact for the business, um you know, we're we're in a good boat, uh good position. So yeah, it's it's really interesting, but I don't think we're anyone's there yet with kind of the hundred percent decision making being totally automated. I think you're always gonna have that, at least for the time being, gonna have that manual intervention.

SPEAKER_04 26:26

Yeah, I mean I I I completely agree with all of that. The the the for fear of making this an AI topic completely, but uh I I I think Yeah, I I I think we I think I actually think this problem hasn't changed because I've been banging on for years that one of the problems of digital transformation is that companies think about it in terms of transforming their processes to make their lives easier, and don't think about it enough about transforming their processes to make their customers' lives easier, and then you end up with user experience that are so bad you want to spend your money somewhere else. AI has the ability to make that worse on steroids, but it's the same problem, right? Which is that you know ultimately you need to have the right customer experience for your customers, not for you, if that makes sense. Um, but I do think what AI has brought rapidly, and we are right in the middle of all this in our own business, is allowing us to build automations and workflows much more quickly than we ever could before for customers. What we've actually done is we've integrated Claude into our platform. So you can now in workbooks, not sales picks, but just give you the context, you can describe what you want, and it will build the processes and the screens and the and need some work, but it's so much quicker than a more traditional configure this screen, change these layouts, all that kind of stuff that we've had to do in the past. What that means is you can prototype customer workflows that you probably wouldn't be able to do before at a much lower cost, much more quickly, and see whether they work. And sometimes they do, and it's great, and sometimes they don't, and you think that's a really bad idea, we shouldn't do that. Um, but that ability to iterate much more quickly and test what's working, it is I think a really significant change in where we were 18 months ago. To be honest, 18 months ago, the code that Claude was spinning out to do some of the things we do with it just wasn't good enough. It is now, uh and uh and because it sits on top of our APIs and therefore it can't break anything underneath anything in Workbooks, it's a much quicker way of building a brand new workflow. So, for example, we we we prototyped a workflow in days to allow customers to upgrade their licenses for one of our clients, which we just couldn't have done without the customer spending a chunk of money with us before on design, development, all that kind of stuff. You can just prototype it. And so, well, that looks really good. Show it as the customers, see what they think. So that's where I think that AI will really help. And I think that will also allow us back to the sort of actionable piece, it'd allow us to capture interactions with customers in a way that you weren't able to do that before. Because if you couldn't track before what customers were doing when they were renewing their agreements with you, and you were relying on a sales rep to have that conversation and all the negotiation discussions were done on the phone. If you can put it into a process and a system and a bit of software, you can go, wow, why are all these people dangrating you here? Why aren't they clicking this button? And and you can improve that experience for your client and also for your your own internal team to you know drive more revenue and get more renewals done. So I'm excited about what AI can do, although I completely recognise that it's a bit like the Wild West at the moment, is my feeling on it. So so we are really conscious to uh you know prototype and use the innovation it provides, but to make sure that what's coming up the other end of that goes through that same quality control that we would normally put into sort of more traditional software development.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

And I think um that kind of needs leads nicely, as you're saying, the things that it can do. So then one of the challenges bringing all that together is okay, so once you know these systems have the data, connecting the data to the people that can actually act on it, um, so how can uh frontline agents be better equipped then to use these real-time insights in their interactions with customers?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

A game changer for us has really actually been um uh again using using the uh the the fabulous benefits of generative AI and the creation of summaries. Um you know, what I find one of the biggest problems is actually got too much data. Um, and and so you know, your frontline agent has got limited time, you know, and and really needs the most appropriate data. And especially if I look in our case, sometimes a case uh you know may take, you know, it may take an extended period of time to solve, and there'll be you know numerous iterations or numerous conversations, and actually they need that whole uh you know, they need that whole trail of information to actually be able to continue the conversation with the customer. And so, you know, for us, moving from a situation where where they're they're hunting across screens, they're hunting across different areas and actually just quickly prompting with you know, every time you, you know, every time you kind of interact with a customer, here's a quick summary of the latest five things, here was the last, you know, next action that was promised, just immediately changes your um your engagement. Um, and and I think it's that it's it's not just connecting with the data, it's making the data easy for the you know, for the agent, for the human to use, uh, I think makes such a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

We're we're also going through the same thing um in that you know we have could well we're redefining our data um journey, I think, as a as a business. And you know, we are now in a position where we've actually got an integrated data platform that takes um data for from all different uh places and is now the golden source of truth. So that actually has provided our customer service agents and our underwriting teams with the ability, and you're you're spot on the morrow when you say actually there's too much data, what is really necessary in the moment to make those decisions, you know, because ultimately they're held to the metrics of approving or declining applications, obviously, applications that are approved and more uh relevant. You know, we we now have um a much better grip on what data's being provided in that moment, so they have benefited from um our changes there in order to make decisions a lot more quicker. Um and actually I think that will only imp improve, you know. John's right, we we probably shouldn't turn it into an AI heavy conversation, but it is so um relevant at this stage and moving forward that actually it will only improve, you know, from our point of view, it will only improve that decision-making process and and you know make it a lot a lot faster for us.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

Yeah, I agree with all that. Let me actually give you an example of what we do because that because it's it's it's interesting. So, you know, we uh you know our business process is that we sell people TREC platform and then we implement it. And we might do that for a manufacturing firm, we might do that for a charity, we might do that for a medium publishing firm. So the solutions that we deliver are very different depending on the type of business. So if one of our customers phones up our support team and says, I need some help doing X, Y, and Z, you know, they have to somehow work out what we sold them, that's the easy bit, but how do we configure it and what solutions we'll be solving? And honestly, sometimes those projects took months to deploy, and there's a lot of knowledge that was in the people's heads that did the work. So, what we used to do is we used to do what we call handover. So when the project was finished, we'd do a big presentation, produce a load of documents, and we would um give it to the support team, and that's what they would use as their kind of Bible. But now what we do is we do it, we do all that in a Teams meeting and we record it, and again, because our tools can do that in the platform, and then we have an agent that summarizes that handover into a very short, shorter version of the hour and a half meeting that took place that really provides a sort of blueprint of where the agents can then go to get the information that they need, and that's made a that's made a massive difference because to your point about having too much data, because what what they've now got is a manageable summary of okay, this customer uses workbooks in these ways, therefore, I don't need to worry about this stuff, I need to worry about that stuff. And before that was incredibly hard to maintain. So, what we found, because the topic's actually insight, right? But you need the data to be able to have the ability to do the action. In most companies, that data is in people's heads, that's where it sits, right? And so what we've done is allowed you to get that data out on this call, for example, you can record it, transcribe it, run an agent over it to pull out the relevant information. But for us, what we think is important is that inform that that knowledge then installed. We have a library and workbooks where you can then create those articles and they power the AI. So, my strong view is that the world will get better as we get more information out of people's heads into a repository of data that can be used by AI to provide the insight that you need. Because otherwise, you have to ask the guy down the corridor, what do we do for Joe and how does it work, and what do we configure? And that's what I think can be game-changing because when I say to our, and we talk about this a lot with customers, I say, look, the problem with AI is everyone's got it and everyone can buy it. It's cheap, right? Relatively speaking, right? So you can all go and buy a copy of Claude. How do you create competitive advantage if everybody's got the same tools? And the answer I think is you've got knowledge in your business, people and skills and creativity that are uh valuable, right? But they're infinite people. So you need to take that knowledge and make it available to the rest of your business. Don't put it out the internet so everyone else can use it. You want to put it, give it to the rest of your business so the rest of your business can be as good as your best people. Uh, and that's where I think this is going to make a real difference.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yeah, yeah. And I just to extend on that, you know, it's this how and how quickly does your your brand new agent get up to speed? Because, you know, the it's great for the guy who attended the handover meeting, but uh but then someone else joined the company. And and I think this is an ongoing problem for for us as organizations, you know, is how how often do we think you know about onboarding and and how you actually help your new employees get to grip with your with your your CRM system and all the data that's in there, um, you know, let alone these these gems of insights that uh that that you're that you're now adding. Um but uh yeah, that that that example really resonated with me, John, because we we have the same. We have you know, we can we can sell internet, um, but but it's actually it's about the solution design, it's about the specific design and the specific requirements and the specific redundancies. Um and and you and that is is unique to each customer, uh, and you know, and and and isn't always easy to capture uh in a simple document.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Yeah, no, that that's that's so interesting because um you know if the answer to the question of what does usable insight look like seems like it's actually the information that's in people's heads that AI can help get out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Indeed.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

Um so I I would love to get all of your uh perspectives on this one, which is um the role of ownership, because it's something I'm talking to people a lot about recently, is you know, this kind of debate that's going on about you know, customer experiences also increasingly running across departments. So then what's the role of IT, what's the role of CX leadership, what's the role of the board in all of this? So um, yeah, I'd love to get all of your perspectives on how those functions need to work together to make the um you know these integration transformations successful.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

I I I'll happily give you my perspective is helpful. So I think I when I said it's like the World West earlier, I think it is because what's changed is the tools allow people who weren't ever experienced in writing software to write software, and that's great, but it also comes with an immense amount of risk. Uh, and I think what's going on is there's very little architecture thinking about how you plumb all these systems together and how they all work. And so, you know, I'll pitch up a customer, I'll have one engineer who's all over Claude, and he's plugged it into five systems, and he's built some really cool stuff. And the first question I'll ask is, well, if he leaves tomorrow, how is any of this going to work, right? Who understands any of it? Um, so so I think there are some, whilst it's great to have the Wild West, yeah, it's exciting. We there in there needs to be some structure of some governance around it, and I think, particularly for IT teams, they need to not necessarily hold on to all the tech, but they've really got to put in place, I think, the methodologies and the governance around how the tech needs to be used, and things like I mean you've done it, you've done it then, right? You've got a data lake with all your information in one place, and you've got a single source of truth. That can't be an AI, it can't be clawed that you might want to change next week and change it for a different analy. That's got to be sensibly thought through. Where's our data going to sit? Where's our system of record going to be? Where are we expecting our users to interact and get the information that they need? So that kind of architecture design, I think, is probably more important now than ever it was before, uh, and making sure right to you're leading that and not letting the Wild West happen in their own businesses with people building their own software and everything else. Um the keep the CX stuff I still think sits with the CX teams, right, in terms of you know what should the experience be. Uh, but I think the ball's got a really important role to play around a few things. One is recognizing that I think the mix of people in companies is going to change. So for us, we're already seeing we are recruiting less engineers and more product people because with the AI tools, we can code faster. We need more people to think about what it is meant to do, you know, what's the value we're meant to be creating. So I think the board needs to recognize that there's going to be a shift in people. Uh, there needs to be the governance around that to make sure that um we keep everybody on board through the journey that we're gonna go on. Because I honestly I've been in IT for 35 years. This is the only second time I've seen it change as fast as this. And last time was 1996 when the dot.com thing really took off. Um, so it's gonna be it's gonna be really busy three or four years for everybody thing. But I think if we lose sight of the roles that those different teams have, it really will be a problem. So I do think that that each of those teams have got to focus on you know governance, architecture, good project delivery, and then obviously not forgetting the customers and everything else in the mix. But yeah, it's exciting, but it but it could be dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Yeah, I I agree, and I think you know when I look at perhaps where we sit in this as a you know as head of tech, it John's totally right. The governance, I think, is a big one. We have to drive those initiatives. Um I think where the board and and kind of that come into it, it you'll always get you'll always what happens when the buzzword appears is you'll get the kind of conversation of what about AI? Well, my response probably loosely to that is well, what about it? Because you know, we can all talk about what AI is and what we think it means, but actually we then need to understand how it can benefit us. And and John's right, you know, that this is a real um a real change that's happened so rapidly that you know we're having to kind of almost things can change one week, and we've caught up with that, and then the next week we'll have a complete shift again. So, actually, you know, I think boards need to, as John says, recognise what that looks like, but also drive how we integrate it and at what what stage. You know, I think customer experience for us is is an interesting one. You know, we'll always go back to what the customer journey looks like and what they need, just purely, as I said, because of what we do as a business. Um, so we are driven by those those insights, and you know, we're I I it's a really good question. It's a really good question because I think it's gonna keep changing. I think that question is gonna keep changing as time goes on. Um, you know, but from my perspective, you know, the biggest thing that we're that we're doing is is kind of starting to put governing governance in and around what we're trying to do. So, you know, the biggest one I think for us is because of the industry we're in in financial services, you know, we have to really protect customer data. You know, financial data is probably only secondary really to healthcare data, um, in how critical you you we have to secure that, you know, and and I think the other thing is that it's just going to change so quickly. I I can't stress how quick it's going to adapt and how we adapt with it, but also I think it's not just an IT problem, it is a business problem, and that's in everything that that you know we're now kind of looking at. Um, you know, I see it all the time. Actually, how does how does the business adapt to these changes, not just IT? Because ultimately the spotlight is going to be on IT and technology teams, but it's it's a business wide um adoption and change that you know we have to consider. And that's I think where we are and and how it looks to me from my perspective at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah. You know, we we me I mentioned it earlier, the word silos, and I think I think functional silos is is is the the the biggest challenge um that uh that that organizations will face if they're trying to actually you know quickly adapt uh and and drive forward. If you're gonna operate in a business where IT is responsible for this and CX is responsible for that, you I think I think you're just gonna get caught in a in a in a trap. It is very much a give and take world. Um, you know, I think that that that that each function actually has to almost push the other function a little bit to you know to stretch to stretch those boundaries and at the same time, you know, to to make sure that the things that do matter, you know, the governance and the you know and and and the architecture are are also protected. Um, um I will stand up and protect the you know the customer experience, but I have to also take into account you know what's what's feasible, what's financially meaningful to our business, what's going to drive growth. Uh, and so I think we all have to kind of you know open up our own minds and and and not think in functional silos if if we want to take advantage of of the opportunity. Um and I guess that comes down to well, what's the responsibility of your board? And uh, you know, is that not to set up an organization that that can actually operate um, you know, cross silo and uh and and deal with conflict?

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Um exactly. Um so then when it comes to that word metrics, um what's uh what metrics when it comes to the customer experience and improving that? Because you know, to go back to that word outcomes again, um, you know, rather than it being an internal consideration, what are the metrics that actually connect customer experience to growth?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

I look at it from you know, I suppose to me the f the first metric is is again, you know, the is for the customer. Why is the customer buying your service? What is the most important metric to them and are you measuring that? Um, you know, because if you're delivering that and you're delivering that consistently, um, you know, if you're doing your core business really, really well, um, you know, then then it you're you're you're ahead of the playing field. Um so you know, so I think that the first set of the first metric is has has really got to be, you know, the the tied to the customer's reason for doing business with you. Um I think then you can look at your you know your set of operational metrics, and we run something that we call customer health, um, which is a dashboard in which we you know have identified a whole range of of metrics that tell us whether things are going according to plan. Um and it's the ability to just very quickly be able to see whenever whenever any of those key metrics um you know go amber. Um you know, one of them going amber is not necessarily a train smash in overall customer experience, but if multiple, you know, if it's happening multiple times um for sure. Um and then I think for us as as a uh you know as an experience-driven company, we also really focus on the on the human element metrics. Um, you know, so we we we ask our question our customers, you know, to rate us on whether we care about them, um which I think is probably quite rare in a B2B organization. But uh, you know, we we track metrics like do we care? Um, you know, do you trust us? Um, you know, do you view us as the best provider you work with? Um because at the end of the day, uh, you know, whilst those customers are organizations, the people who sign the agreements, make the deals, pay the checks are are all humans, and and I need to know um whether they are emotionally bought into this uh engagement or not.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Yeah, it's in it's interesting actually, because you make the point there. You know, we have similar metrics, and I think it's probably not as uncommon in the position we're in to judge based on those kind of you know the trust values and and how regularly you can talk to an actual person. You know, I I believe we have an excellent customer service team at Fair Finance who do a sort of a superb job of the balancing that between what the customer needs, but also the empathetic side because there is a real fine line for what we offer and what we do against you know the needs of a customer. As I've said before, you know, we're we're not a company that provides loans for someone who's looking for a car on the on the weekend. We are people uh we're providing to people who actually need um a loan to put food on the table, you know, to pay off that same debt. So we're in a bit of a different position, but uh actually the metrics are the same for us. Um, perhaps, you know, again, as I say, not as rare. Um, so yeah, it's again, it's another really interesting question. But I think we probably do and have had experience with this for a long time, we're now in kind of a state of refining what that looks like. Um because ultimately, uh again, you know, we go down the route of of automation AI. It's very easy, or could be very easy for us to actually put AI at the front of, you know, when a customer calls and they'll get an AI um uh you know, voice or a chatbot or whatever it is. But I think we also have have to consider that we have customers that that won't accept that essentially, you know, and they need to be able to trust that the information they're given is given to you by someone that actually is going to be the decision maker. And this is what I was going back to before about we're not at the point where decisions can be made solely by AI, it still needs that human interaction intervention.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Yeah, but I again I I'll echo all of that. My my one of my frustrations in life, generally speaking, is that when we go and talk to customers about what they'll want from CRM, they'll tell me things like we want a 360-degree view of our customers. And I'm like, well, you might, but that's not really the outcome. You know, if you're gonna give me, pick a number, 100 grand a year, right? If you're gonna give me a chunk of money, that's not really what you want. What you want is some other measurable outcome, which is probably a business outcome first and foremost, right? It might be a revenue growth outcome, it might be an improved customer experience outcome, it might be a cost reduction outcome. But too often I think CRM projects are started with a focus on the technology and the process and not a focus on what are we actually trying to achieve. Because if you start with what's the real outcome we're trying to achieve, and then you work back, it's so much easier to deliver a solution that works. Because when someone says, Oh, I want to add in this workflow over here that will do X, Y, and Z, you go, Well, we can do that, but that's not what's going to make any difference to this in this phase. So let's deliver what we said we were going to deliver first and not end up with a sprawling CRM platform that does lots of different things and none of them well. And honestly, we see lots of those, uh, which we then and and honestly, it's not because they're bad products, you know, we'll we'll swap out swap out main CRM platforms like Salesforce and UpSport all the time. And they're good products, it's just because they've not been implemented in a way that really delivers the right kind of value for businesses. So I think what's really important with metrics is that they're set at the beginning and then regularly reviewed. Are we still measuring the right stuff? You know, is this still the focus of the business? Is customer experience now really great? But actually, we need to streamline the process and reduce our costs or grow our revenues. And and again, we encourage customers to revisit the workshops we do with them every 18 months because your business moves a lot, right? And sometimes it's more often that, but that that redefinition of what success looks like for a business, I think, is really important.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

Yeah, no, it ultimately needs to be fit for purpose, right, doesn't it? As you say, it could be you know the best product in the world, but if it's not the right fit for what they're trying to do, then it's and particularly if your business moves so fast, right?

SPEAKER_04 51:46

Because the process you implemented six months ago may not be the right one for you now, yeah, six or nine months later.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, so this has been such a you know really enlightening conversation, and I'd love to carry on, but in interest of time, I'll ask the final question, which is um if you could offer one piece of advice um you know to our viewers who are who are going through this process and you know looking at how to make their data that's in this in their CRMs, you know, actionable and provide those insights, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 52:16

I I think Amori's hit the nail on the head personally in that you can't have silos anymore in a business. You have to work all together on the same page and define that um that early on. I think that has to be the biggest piece of advice for me personally. I think that's something we've done at Fair Finance, you know, in in the last sort of 12 months, even is actually come together and understand what is needed and which route we're going to take. And you know, is everyone happy with that? You know, but ultimately that is provided also by your stakeholders. You know, the key stakeholders in the business are the ones that will also provide you with the the kind of outcomes that you're you're looking to achieve. Um, but yeah, the the biggest bit is the silos have to go. It has to be all in or all out. So that you know, that's my biggest piece of advice.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

I think mine um is uh remember what the C stands for in uh CRM. Um and it's not the company. Uh you know, yes, that might be what you're buying it for. Um, but I think, yeah, uh honestly, just really, you know, getting our getting our customers back in into you know focus um when when when we design, when we build, when we invest, uh can can only be good.

SPEAKER_04 53:34

I I think both of those are great bits of advice. I think I might add something slightly different from a sort of vendor perspective, because we see so many failed projects which we're then trying to fix for for customers because what they did first time around didn't work. Uh, and for me, it it's really about treating it like a grown-up project, because too often CRM, and I think it's partly because the vendors sell it as look, it'll be easy to implement, but but it's not the technology generally is, but getting the processes and the business logic and the customer experience right is is not easy, right? And and if if if you think buying a bit of software is gonna fix it for you, it won't. So for me, it's really focusing on not so much the tech, and we sell tech, but it's focusing on what are you really trying to achieve, and recognizing that there's going to be a journey to get you there over time. And if you approach it that way, you'll get quick wins along the way, and you'll end up with something that actually works at the end of it. And if you don't do that, you'll spend a ton of money and you'll have a nice bit of software that no one ever uses. And I see that a lot. Although use it for a contact management system, and you're paying a lot of money for a uh CRM tool that gives you names and addresses.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

Absolutely. That's that's really important advice. So thank you, three of you, for taking the time for such an insightful discussion. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Thank you. Thank you all.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

Thank you. And uh thank you to everyone watching. Um, we hope this conversation has been you know useful, provided some uh perspectives that you could take away on how to turn customer data into meaningful measurable action. So, for more on this topic, visit our website cxtoday.com. Make sure you subscribe to our newsletter and join the conversation on LinkedIn. Thank you.