107. Daughter Lessons: Navigating the Mother-Daughter Relationship Through Life's Transitions

What if the empty nest isn't the end of your parenting journey, but a new beginning—an opportunity to reconnect with yourself? 

In this enlightening episode, Bernadette Catalana, author of Daughter Lessons: Wise and Witty Reflections on Leading, Learning From, and Loving our Daughters, challenges us to reframe this pivotal life transition.

Throughout the conversation, Bernadette dismantles common misconceptions that launching adult children signifies failure or loss. Instead, she celebrates it as the natural outcome of good parenting: “If you're doing it right, your children will leave your home and you'll get fired from the best job you ever had—and that’s the perfect outcome.” 

Most profoundly, Bernadette reminds us that our children are not “our happiness projects.” Releasing expectations allows both parents and children to pursue authentic lives, leading to genuine happiness and meaningful connection. 

Highlights & Key Takeaways:

• Understanding your mother’s relationships with her own mother can offer healing from “mother wounds.”
• Transitioning from “the sage on the stage” to “the guide on the side” in parenting encourages trust and autonomy.
• Children are individuals with their own paths, not reflections of parenting success or failure.
• Respect and trust in your adult children’s judgment strengthen your relationship and their autonomy.

Bernadette Catalana Bio
Bernadette Catalana is one of seven children—six of them daughters. She is also a lawyer, mentor, cooking enthusiast, and avid yoga practitioner. But the role she identifies with most is mother to Carly and Courtney. She grew up in Endicott, New York, raised her girls in Rochester, New York and currently lives on Central Park with her significant other and her Havanese, Jackson. Her daughters, who are now grown and starting families of their own, are both within walking distance. This is a collection of her many essays on motherhood.

Find Bernadette Online: Amazon (Book), Instagram, Facebook, Website.

Chapters

• 0:00 Learning from Our Mistakes
• 4:13 Introduction to Bernadette Catalana
• 9:57 Growing Up in a Family of Seven
• 17:22 Enjoying Children and Maintaining Innocence
• 24:26 Healing the Mother Wound
• 26:53 Trusting Adult Children's Decisions
• 31:45 Mentoring Younger Generations
• 36:11 Daughter Lessons: The Book

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Don't be the Monday morning quarterback, don't be the criticizer, because even if and I'm going to finger quote it a mistake is made, that's their mistake to make. And I know I've made a lot of mistakes and I kind of like the mistakes I've made. I've learned a lot from the mistakes I've made along the way.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Welcome to this Empty Nest Life I've made along the way. Welcome to this Empty Nest Life. Join Jay Ramsden as he leads you on a transformative journey through the uncharted seas of midlife and empty nesting. If you're ready to embark on this new adventure and redefine your future, you're in the right place. Here's your host, the Empty Nest Coach, Jay Ramsden.

Speaker 3: 0:41

Hey there, Empty Nesters. Today we're talking daughters and stories and the wisdom we've learned along the way, and I'm happy to welcome to the show Bernadette Catalana, who is the author of Daughter Lessons, Wise and Witty Reflections on Leading, Learning From and Loving Our Daughters. Bernadette, welcome to this Empty Nest, Life.

Speaker 1: 1:02

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here, Jay, and always nice to chat about my favorite subject.

Speaker 3: 1:09

Yeah, our daughters, and I have one, so this will be a good conversation. We can compare notes. I've got one of each, but I do have a daughter who's 25. How old are yours?

Speaker 1: 1:18

My daughters are both in their early 30s and they're married ladies, as I like to say, which is really fun. That's been a fun part of life. I didn't know that I would embrace it as much as I do, but it's really great.

Speaker 3: 1:33

We're not at that stage yet and I'm definitely not in a rush, so but it's. It's an interesting to see how they grow and learn from us and the same we grow and learn from them as well, and I have a feeling that that's what daughter lessons is about a little bit.

Speaker 1: 1:47

It's so much about that. I've probably learned more from my daughters that I've taught them or at least I feel that way because you know we have this opportunity to in some ways revisit parts of our lives and maybe do it again. I think there's a lot of healing in and it doesn't necessarily have to be a daughter, I think just raising children in general. We learn so much and if we didn't learn it the first time around when we were being raised up, I feel like we get another chance to learn it on the second round.

Speaker 3: 2:24

And in your first round you're one of six daughters, is that?

Speaker 1: 2:28

Yes, I'm one of six daughters. My mother had seven children total six girls and one boy.

Speaker 3: 2:34

What did you learn from your sisters and watching that interaction with your mom and the six of you, and then how did that play out with your own daughters and maybe how did that turn into a book? I think there's probably some synergy there between the three.

Speaker 1: 2:48

Yeah, I think so, probably from watching my mom raise seven children a lot of it on her own, is zone defense. Maybe there was a lot going on in our house, chaotic. I mean, I often envision myself as one of a gaggle of geese, you know, and I was one of the littler ones. So I'm number six out of seven and my little sister and I are extremely close and I think it's because we were kind of bringing up the tail.

Speaker 1: 3:25

I also think parents change over time. You know what you are as a parent of. You know your first is probably different than how you are with your last, especially if you have five children sandwiched in between those. So I think I, from my mom my mom, I will say I never felt necessarily close to my mom, probably just because of the numbers. You know it's hard to be close to seven children. It's a lot easier to find closeness when you have one or two or maybe even three. But especially now my mom died it'll be two years in October and I find that I appreciate her more and more each day as I look back and I think of really the amazing job she did raising all those kids.

Speaker 3: 4:22

Well, first, sorry for your loss. I know that's tough. I haven't experienced that personally yet myself but I know that's hard when we lose a parent. But what's one lesson that you learned from your mom along the way?

Speaker 1: 4:34

My mom was somebody who really just never lost her innocence. She was a really sweet and innocent person and I think for her, my dad my dad leaving her which was essentially my dad leaving all of us was a very devastating blow, especially to her as a Catholic woman. She was, you know, this is her essential purpose to be married and to mother the children of the man that she loved and to go to church. I mean, these were her jobs and suddenly she got thrust into a completely different role that she did not expect and did not ask for. But despite that, she never lost her innocence. She was a very sweet person, very kind person and I, you know, I just I think back on a lot of fun stories that we had, even in the tumultuous times just following my father leaving us and putting our house into this chaos. You know, there's still a lot of sweet moments that I remember with my mom and my siblings as we tried to figure out a new normal.

Speaker 3: 5:59

Yeah, yeah, how did that, that lesson of like forever innocent, like didn't lose her, play out for you as a mom?

Speaker 1: 6:08

Yeah, I feel like I have tried to model that as well and not ever be a bitter person. I've also just really enjoyed my kids. I, you know, for whatever reason, probably because I've relished my role as a mother really from the beginning. I do have people who come to me and say, if you could tell somebody, a new parent, one piece of advice, what would you tell them? And I always say, just enjoy your children. And I have to say I have done that. I never really worried too much. I knew that odds were, things were going to be OK and I knew I was on top of it and I just always believed in the resilience of my kids and the resilience of my love for them. And we've had a wonderful ride. And I have to say, being the parent of adults is really fun too, if you allow it to be for yourself.

Speaker 3: 7:11

Oh, it can be so much fun. Yeah, absolutely. It seems to me like the book Daughter Lessons is almost a call to action for both moms and daughters. Did I sense that in going through some of it?

Speaker 1: 7:25

Yeah, I think so. I think there are certainly a lot of cases where the mother and daughter relationship can be strained. I hear that from people. But I also think that there's so much opportunity for generational healing and to make things better. Like I said, I didn't necessarily feel very close to my mom. I knew she loved me and I knew she was also someone who had carried this burden of being a single parent for a long time and it was hard. It hurt her, really, really hurt her to the core During a time I'm thinking the 1970s. It's not like people had therapists on a regular basis. I mean, this was something she kind of withstood with the help of friends. But we also, particularly then, lived in a very Noah's Ark world.

Speaker 1: 8:33

Tell me more about that I think we all have experienced that, especially if you have gone through a divorce or have gone through a breakup with someone that you've been with for a long time, there is that moment where it suddenly dawns on you wow, most people in this world either are in relationships or are trying to be in relationships and I am here by myself right now and that can feel a little bit strained.

Speaker 1: 9:09

And having gone through that, after you know, after my girls grew up, my marriage ended and it gave me a new appreciation for my mother and how she went through it with far less tools and without a job. My mom didn't even know how to drive when my dad left. I mean, she was in her early 40s and didn't have a driver's license, we didn't have a car, so it was just some basic things and I had a law degree, obviously knew how to drive, I had my own money, I didn't have all of the day-to-day worries that she had and I still felt broken. So, again, I think sometimes we get the lessons in life that we are intended to learn that help us understand people we love, and that certainly was one lesson that helped me understand Absolutely when you think about it like you recently did.

Speaker 3: 10:12

a blog where it was mother is a loaded word.

Speaker 1: 10:15

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 10:16

Yeah, and I think I want to know more about that and in in contrast to what we've just been talking about, like with your mom and with your experience, tell me more about that.

Speaker 1: 10:26

Yeah, I think that and, again, I travel a lot, I'm a lawyer, I do a lot of talks about women, empowerment and even though we're lawyers, we're still women and what is central to our lives? We talk about our relationships, our relationships with our significant others. We talk about our, our children's, our parents, our, our. You know the things that are important to us in our lives, and I have had more than one woman come to me, I guess, confessing that they have a mother wound, and a mother wound is something where you have a relationship with your mother that isn't fit for a hallmark card, right? It's wow.

Speaker 1: 11:15

This just doesn't feel right, and I've had a lot of these conversations and one of the things that I try to offer to the person who is truly suffering and this can be a lifelong suffering because you get, you get caught up in this you know blame and shame. I'm blaming my mother for not being everything I needed her to be, and then the shame is well, that must mean that I'm not worthy because I didn't have the mother that I needed. So it's really it can be extremely heavy, and what I try to offer to people who are talking about this one is you know, certainly you can talk to a counselor about this. I mean, a mother wound is a deep wound.

Speaker 1: 12:07

It is one of the most central relationships in our lives. But part of that healing can simply be asking yourself well, what is it that I'm doing? Did my mother have a good relationship with her mother? Did she have a strong mother who loved her? Did she feel loved? And many times that very simple question can lead to an oh, now I understand, now that I think about it, and then it just I think sometimes just asking the right question can lead us to a path of healing and we can heal. And I do think healing through our children is something that you know, I know I have done and I'm proud because I feel like in a generation, the healing that has happened for me has been tremendous and it doesn't end because my children aren't in my home anymore.

Speaker 1: 13:13

I was recently led a podcast for National Association of Women Lawyers and I think we called it. Our working title was Parenting Adults. It's Complicated. I was sharing with them that I met a man who you know. This natural conversation oh, you have children. How old are they? So that you know? Someone asked you oh, my children are grown. And this man looked at me and he said I'm so sad for you. When my children leave my home. It's going to be the worst day of my life, and I thought, oh my wow. I said you know, I really have to say that if you're doing it right, your children will leave your home and you'll get fired from the best job you ever had, and that's the perfect outcome, right?

Speaker 3: 14:13

It is. It is. I always say people who listen to the show hear me say this all the time it's like we go from a W-2 job to a 1099. It's like we get hired when they need us. Right. It's not ongoing and continuous and whether you have sons or daughters, they're always going to need you in different ways. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so how do your daughters? What's something that you've learned from them over the last year, year and a half?

Speaker 1: 14:41

I consult with them often, just because we're all out in the work world.

Speaker 1: 14:46

So, you know we can talk as adults and you know I was asked a question recently oh, were you one of those moms who was best friends with your kids growing up? And both of my children will say decidedly no. I was in charge, I was the mom, I made the decisions. I told them when you're grown up, you can make the decisions, and I was definitely the disciplinarian, I was the one who was tough in a loving way. But I told them someday we will be friends. It is not now, um, but the day has come where we are friends and we, we, we talk, we laugh, we enjoy each other. I mean, I talk to both of my children every day. I live walking distance from both of them and to say that in New York city, that's, that's a pretty big deal.

Speaker 3: 15:41

It's pretty amazing.

Speaker 1: 15:42

Yeah, it sure is, and I just, you know, I just talked to them. I love that I have reached that moment and I hope that you're there and you probably are, where you realize you did a good job and you can. You realize you did a good job and you can. The relief of that burden, that's a big one, because you don't realize it when you're doing it, right.

Speaker 3: 16:09

Right? Oh yeah, cause there is no handbook right For being a parent and teaching the kids. I think the idea is that we are, ultimately, we want to raise good humans who do good things.

Speaker 1: 16:20

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 16:21

I, I, I worry about when people get so caught up in, like, the achievement of our kids as opposed to you know, are they going to live a good life because they're a good human. That is more important as our jobs as a parent. It's not we can't achieve for them, and I think that's the message I like to send to folks is I couldn't agree with you more.

Speaker 1: 16:41

Our children are not our happiness projects. They are not our achievement projects. They are not a scouting badge that we're earning. My children are extremely different from me. I'm a lawyer. They wanted nothing to do with being lawyers. I love to read. I don't think either of them are really very bookish, but they have fantastic people skills and they are. You know, they're go getters, they're hard workers. It's it's really fun to see them navigating the world. I lead a lot of young people in my position as the leader of this office that I want to want to know what's what's going to work or what's a good way to do this or that. More than anything, we really just enjoy each other, and I think that that's the, that's the best part, is just that joy that enjoy.

Speaker 3: 17:40

Yeah, that's I. The true measure of having a job, having done a job well as a parent, is like are we still close with and can spend time with our kids and have it be enjoyable and fun and still learn and laugh and do things together? I'm curious with the daughter lessons like how did that book come to be and how did you pull from your various life stories with the girls and obviously with your sisters and your life? What was the emphasis there to write the book?

Speaker 1: 18:11

Well, I started it, you know, more than 10 years ago. I got up one morning and thought, wow, the girls are going to be out of the house and we're not going to live together every day. And then the thought dawned on me well, there's going to be a day when I'm not going to be here at all, and I hope that's a long way away. But how can I prepare for that? Because I didn't feel necessarily close to my mom. I didn't feel like I knew my mother as well as I would have wanted to Even then, even though she was still alive. I mean, she was brought up in a different time, probably. I mean, I look back she really wasn't all that close to her mom either. So, but I but I had been close to my girls and I thought you know what's the next step?

Speaker 1: 19:09

Well, the one thing that I've always liked to do that's come easy to me is to write, and I have kept a daily journal since 2005. And I woke up one morning at the beginning of October and I said I am going to write a lesson every single day for my girls. I'm going to just write a lesson, something they would want to know about me, about life about love, and I literally picked up a pen and I made sure that it fit, like to the bottom of the page Because, again, people, we live in a different world now. People have less time to read. I wanted to give them something digestible, so I did these short entries about different things, different events of my life, of their lives, of my mother's life, of, you know, our family. I certainly wrote about my dad a lot, whom I loved very much, and wrote about the aspect of forgiveness there, about, you know, for forgiving him for the situation that I grew up in. Certainly, the situation that I grew up in, certainly and it really was, it was again. It was obviously.

Speaker 1: 20:26

That wasn't all joy. There are some things in there that are hard, but mostly I feel like I wrote it in a way that I wanted them to hear it in an upbeat way and I put the book together. Then the girls and I we launched the website and then I was writing quite a bit and then we were talking before we started recording a little bit. Actually, putting the book together took so much time that I really kind of went away from posting on a regular basis, but I think this past May, this Mother's Day because I was doing a daily column. I was a guest columnist for Living Grace.

Speaker 1: 21:11

It kind of got me into this mode of oh well, I'm writing these posts. I'm going to get back and get at it again, because I really do enjoy that part of my life is picking up a pen and writing. So to me it's a gift. For them, the cover of the book is myself and my girls and I always tell people the only people that are required to read this book are standing here next to me on the cover. But it's brought a lot of joy. I've had a lot of people reach out to me and talk to me about the process and it's you know, it's just it's it has brought so much goodness. So they're a love project that getting.

Speaker 3: 21:55

I'm getting more than I gave, you know it's interesting because I, like in my brain, says you've written this book, the daughter lessons, but it seems like it continues oh, but oh, the lessons continue all the time.

Speaker 1: 22:10

I mean we're still, like I said, we're still talking, having fun. Courtney and I are going on vacation with our significant others in a couple of weeks. I mean, mean, we're still, we're still doing all the things and just trying to enjoy as much time together as we can, cause you know, I think if you ask the wealthiest person on the earth to what is the one thing that they would want at the end of their life, and it's not going to be more money, it's going to be more time. And you know, these girls are my treasures and so I'm doing everything I can to spend time and just enjoy these wonderful, wonderful people who are their own people. I mean I'm extremely lucky that they have grown up well. I mean, yeah, part of it is is work, part of it is my time investment.

Speaker 1: 23:07

but part of it is just who they are and I realized that I'm extremely fortunate. So we're just enjoying time and and I think you know that's the message that I hope your listeners get from this conversation I think people hear empty nest and you know it kind of makes them shudder a little bit because I know for me, a big part of my identity, even now, is being a mother, but it doesn't end. It changes being a mother, but it doesn't end it changes. And the one thing that I will tell you is when my girls need me. Now the problems are bigger and they're more impactful, and it's interesting in that way. I still have a big influence on their lives. Am I making decisions for them? No, but as a supporter, as a listener, as somebody who is an interested carer in the situation, your impact as the parent of an adult is just as significant as it was when your kids are small. It's just not every, it might not be every single day.

Speaker 3: 24:27

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 24:28

Yeah, I think of the journey as in the beginning we're kind of the sage on the stage like don't touch that, it's hot, and then we become like the mentor in the center as they get into like the teen years high school years and then, as they start to launch, become become kind of like the mentor in the center as they get into like the teen years, high school years, and then, as they start to launch, become, become kind of like the guide on the side, and that it's just like oh, I have a question. I may not do exactly as you say, but I just I want your feedback and your input and that's where the guide on the side piece comes in and it sounds like that's been what your journey has been with your girls.

Speaker 1: 24:59

Oh for sure, and the one thing that I will say is I trust them.

Speaker 1: 25:06

I trust them.

Speaker 1: 25:09

I was around, for you know, I saw it, I watched it unfold, and I trust the lessons they've learned along the path.

Speaker 1: 25:19

And I know that they've learned along the path and I know that they are good and kind people and really isn't that all we really want for our kids that they're good and kind and they have a sense of themselves. They believe in themselves and I believe in them. So when they're faced with big decisions, one of the first things I'll say is I know that you will find the right answer, I trust you, you're really putting adequate time into this decision, and I think this is the part that some people have to learn to refrain from is don't be the Monday morning quarterback, don't be the criticizer, because even if you know and I'm going to finger quote a mistake is made, that's their mistake to make, and I know I've made a lot of mistakes and I kind of like the mistakes I've made. I've learned a lot from mistakes I've I've made along the way and they will as well. It's, it's their lives. So I'm just enjoying watching their lives unfold and it's, you know, it's. It's beautiful, it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 3: 26:37

Yeah, to me, there's succeeding and there's learning Right. That's where the mistake piece comes in. It's like it's a beautiful thing. Yeah, to me there's succeeding and there's learning right. That's where the mistake piece comes in. It's like we can succeed and do good things, but we also can have mistakes and failures, and that's where we learn from them. That's like the dichotomy for me. So it takes off the weight of like oh, you know, they made a mistake, or I told them to do this and they didn't do it.

Speaker 3: 26:57

And a lot of my listeners are all over they, you know, they're people who have kids in high school, kids who are just in college, kids who are adulting now. And I think the biggest thing to remember, especially for people who are listening right now, is when you get to this stage in life, you feel like I've taught them everything I know, but there's so much more to know, right? It's like we feel like we have to keep teaching and then at some point, we have to stop and let them learn their own lessons, and I think that's what you were, you were talking about here, and probably in daughter lessons too, is like here are the things that my daughters have learned outside of me as a parent.

Speaker 1: 27:33

Absolutely. And also we, we lead by example, especially in this stage of life, right, I mean in every stage along the way. But I feel like in this stage of life, you hear again, you hear some people who are so afraid of the term empty nest. I mean, to me, I think of it more as a return. I was young when I had my girls. I graduated from college, got married six months later, had a baby a year later, had another baby a year later and I was I mean, especially in today's standards I was extremely young and, you know, probably didn't know myself and probably hadn't properly raised myself. Now that the work of the active work of raising my children is done, I can now return to the project that is me and do things to help myself grow. And as long as we're growing, we're living and as long as we're taking a breath, we have an obligation to do that. I mean, I think it would be really sad for a child to look at a parent who's devastated because the child has grown up, because that's, that's our job.

Speaker 3: 28:53

That's right? Yeah, it is. So, since you talked about the journey and growing is learning and learning is growing, like that's an important path. What's one thing that you've learned about yourself in this past 12 months?

Speaker 1: 29:06

Oh, wow. Well, I think one thing that I've learned and I don't know if I would keep it to the past 12 months Probably in the past five years I've had much more appreciation for my strength, for how much work I get done in a day. I have a very vigorous job and I am I'm on it I love it.

Speaker 1: 29:27

I get up every day and I feel, you know, I feel excited about it. I also, you know, try to keep up with my, you know, keep keeping myself healthy. That's something important that people let go along the way in your parenting journey, and I have. I have never let that go and I'm proud of that Because, again, I don't want to be a burden for my kids. I don't want them to feel like, oh my gosh, mom, mom is such a stressful job, she's probably going to have a heart attack. I try to make sure that they know that I'm, I'm doing great, you don't have to worry about me. I don't want the tables to turn where my kids start feeling like they have to parent me, at least for a long, long time. And now I just say you just worry about yourself because I'm I'm really good and good and I'm just enjoying life and I'm enjoying New York City. I would say probably in the past year I have gotten much more acclimated.

Speaker 1: 30:30

I did not move here until full time, until 2019. And then the pandemic hit a year later. So that was a little bit of strange timing and Courtney and I were here together. We were roommates. It was a little crazy being here and the city was desolate. It was strange. But now that things are coming back and I walk to work every day I live on Central Park. It's it really is actually a very healthy lifestyle because I walk everywhere.

Speaker 3: 31:07

There's something to be said for for walking. For sure, I think people lose track of that when they think about working out, but it is one of the most beneficial ways to to get an exercise during the day.

Speaker 1: 31:18

Yeah, I think so too.

Speaker 3: 31:19

You talked about modeling for our kids, right, and so now you're focused on yourself. Your daughters are in their thirties. What's the one thing that you've always wanted to do, but you haven't done yet?

Speaker 1: 31:31

Oh, wow, that is a great question. You know I I want to travel more. I do travel a bit. I know that I have another book in me. I actually have a book proposal I'm preparing for a publisher, so that's, that's kind of cool. I just want to keep. I just want to keep growing and doing and really keeping focused on my career path. Keeping focused on my career path and what I. One of the things I love the most about the lawyering that I'm doing and the leading I'm doing is that I work with a lot of younger lawyers and it's it's really fun for me, my, you know my love for cause I it's almost like professional mothering, right?

Speaker 1: 32:17

So I have I people to love and bring along, but I think one of the sad things is you hear all the time, oh, this generation, they're not hard workers and I don't feel that way at all. I look at the young people that are coming up behind me. They have had such a different experience. They grew up with mass shootings. They grew up with World Trade Center, you know falling down. They've had so many more things to deal with.

Speaker 1: 32:51

At much younger ages they had to deal with the pandemic disrupting high school, college, law school. They've grown up with technology. They've grown up with a computer in their hands. I mean, what a different world, and I love that. I learn from them all the time and I will say they're extremely respectful. I have not encountered a younger person in the legal field that I thought was, you know, obnoxious or rude or any of these characteristics that people want to assign to the youngsters coming up right now. The young people I think they just had a different life and if we can try to put ourselves in their shoes and look at life from their perspective, I think we'd understand a lot more and also have an appreciation for the skill set that they have.

Speaker 3: 33:51

Oh, I love that. I think that's an important piece too in this journey of our lives is, as we're kind of moving through the emptiness phase and we're getting older, it's like don't disregard younger folks. Like what can we learn from them? How do they approach things differently? Their minds are a lot different than ours in terms of what's available to them and how they think about life and how they think about themselves and wanting to move through this world, and I think it's an important piece. That's an important point you made there.

Speaker 1: 34:19

And I think it's an important piece, that's an important point you made there, and I think a lot of them are close to their parents and I love to hear that. You know, nothing is a bigger compliment to me than, oh, my mom said the same thing, and that makes me feel good and I know that, okay, I must be giving this person good advice, because their mom said the same thing.

Speaker 3: 34:38

There you go.

Speaker 1: 34:47

Are you handing out daughter lessons to the, to the associates in your firm? I'm not, but they do see it and they know that I'm on podcasts often and they know that I'm on podcasts because I'm talking about my book usually and they they also. They do follow me on LinkedIn because I do a lot of posting on LinkedIn and they and they do follow that. They're very you know, they're very kind and very sweet. I have to say it's been. I've gotten a lot of joy raising my children and I have gotten a lot of joy mentoring younger lawyers and I find they're all extremely generous. I always think, oh, thanks for putting up with me. It's like you've got a mother at the office, but they seem to like it. They seem to like it.

Speaker 3: 35:29

Yeah, everybody loves that figure in their life, right, that gives them maybe a little bit of structure and something to lean on when they need to lean on somebody.

Speaker 1: 35:37

Yeah, and they see me doing it and they know that I've had a successful career and I think probably one of the things they like the best is when they're they'll hear me on calls and you know, sometimes when I'm on a call I may be talking to an opponent and I may be having a little bit harsher tone of voice, and so they get to see me in different roles and see me doing other things and flexing my muscles a little bit, and I think that's fun for them as well.

Speaker 3: 36:06

Yeah, it goes back to the whole modeling piece. Right, we're always modeling.

Speaker 1: 36:10

Always.

Speaker 1: 36:11

Oh, in fact, one of my partners at my last firm said you know they're watching everything you do, and I thought about about that, and I really have been aware of that to the point where.

Speaker 1: 36:26

So my last office was downtown, so I would walk to work there as well and I would wear comfortable shoes, but I would put my high heels on in the elevator on the way up so that they would never, never see me not like completely myself professional and walk through the door. And one thing I did every day, and that I still do now, is I say hello to every single person who comes into the office, especially post-pandemic. I think we need that. I think we need to thank people for making the effort to come in and be there in person, and I know that that matters, that matters to them, that greeting, and you know what. We set the tone, just like as you lead your family, when you have your work family, you're leading them as well and you're setting the tone of respect. That way, when you have your work family, you're leading them as well, and you're setting the tone of respect that way.

Speaker 3: 37:21

I love that. Well, in terms of setting the tone before I let you go, like, if you had to say what your empty nest life motto was, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 37:30

Oh, wow, I have a few. One of them is little children, little problems, big children, big problems. And I don't say that as a bad thing, but just to remind myself that I'm still important in the process and I and I know I am. But I think the other thing is you know, toughest job you'll ever love and get fired from if you're doing it right. So I, I will. I will say I've been, I've been somewhat fired, but but yeah, I like the idea of being a 1099 employee.

Speaker 3: 38:06

That's right. A little guide on the side right they hire you when they when they need to hire you. So good, so good. Daughter Lessons is available on Amazon. I'll put it in the show notes for people who are interested in checking it out. Bernadette, it was a pleasure having you on the show today. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1: 38:23

So nice to talk to you and good luck to you and to all of your listeners. I'm really excited that somebody is exploring this and making the term emptiness something positive.

Speaker 3: 38:36

Absolutely, it's my mission.

Speaker 1: 38:38

Well, you're doing it.

Speaker 2: 38:39

Are you ready to start living and enjoying your empty nest years? If so, head over to jasonramsdencom and click work with me to get the conversation started. This Empty Nest Life is a production of Impact. One Media LLC. All rights reserved.