Can rivers and forests have legal rights?

There are laws which are supposed to protect our environment, but they haven’t stopped pollution and the destruction of the natural world. So, some rivers and forests gave been granted enforceable legal rights to stop this habitat destruction. Alma-Constance and Lucinda discussed this with one of the co-founders of the Lawyers for Nature organisation: Paul Powlesland a barrister at Garden Court Chambers; and he told us:

·      Why Lawyers for Nature was founded

·      How having legal rights gives nature a voice in the legal system

·      About the cases he has been involved with to help local communities protect   their trees

·      The examples from other countries where rivers and nature have been given legal rights 

·      About being the self – appointed guardian of the river Roding in East London

·      Several ways that we can become involved in protecting nature in our communities.

References and Resources

https://www.lawyersfornature.com/about/

Brontie Ansell

David Hunter

Paul Powlesland

Nature in Court – as Jury Oath

Faith In Nature  

Universal Declaration of River Rights

EcoJurisprudence World wide examples

Webinar Strategic litigation: how charities can use the law as a force for good Client Earth

River Roding Trust

If you've got any questions, ideas about a topic or someone to interview, get in touch, we'd love to hear from you!! You can email us at kidslaw@spark21.org, contact us through the website: www.kidslaw.info  or through social media: Facebook, X and Instagram @KidsLawInfo 

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See you soon in the next episode!

Transcript

Can rivers and forests have legal rights? 

Hi, I'm Alma Constance. And I'm Lucinda. And together in our Kids Law podcast, we're going to look at how laws affect children as we grow up. 

So, what are we going to look at in this episode, Alma Constance?

Well, many people, especially young people, are very worried about climate change, destruction of animals, habitats and pollution, affecting rivers and seas. Surely, there must be laws to stop this, so why aren't they working at what can be done?  

There are laws and regulations which are designed to protect the environment and reduce the impact of climate change, but they're not always followed by people and organisations.  Not just in our country, but across the world and laws that do exist don't cover everything in the natural world. The good news is that there are things that are being done. We have heard in many of our interviews about laws giving people and organizations legal rights, and there is a growing idea to use the principle of giving enforceable legal rights to the natural world.

Let's find out more from one of the co-founders of the Lawyers for Nature organization, Paul Powlesland at Barrister from Garden Court Chambers.  

Hello, Paul. Thank you so much for joining us on our Kids Love podcast today. We are so glad to have you here. So please, could you just tell us a bit about yourself and why you founded Lawyers for Nature?

Hi, so I'm a barrister and I began to get involved in campaigns to help protect trees initially and also rivers in 2017. And through various campaigns, I realized the same question that you introduced this podcast with that, wait a second, there are laws supposedly protecting our environment, but those laws don't seem to be working.

And I tried to figure out why that was. And, soon came across an idea called rights of nature, and realized that we really needed it; an organization fighting for rights of nature in the UK. So that led to founding Lawyers for Nature. The other crucial thing, that has led me to where I am now,  this is a rather odd shaped room that I'm in.  This is actually a boat. and behind me there about 10 feet away is the river Roding, where I live and also the river that I am, self-appointed guardian for. And in many ways, one of the the main loves of my life, and so I've put a lot of effort into restoring the river and also learn a lot about why our current systems are failing through my work on the roadie. 

So can you explain the idea of granting rivers and forests legal rights  

Well, firstly and crucially, we wouldn't be granting them the same. Rights as humans so   when we say granting rights for nature. We generally mean two things.

We mean substantive rights, akin to human rights, but the different kinds of things that nature's needs. So, for instance, whereas in human rights, we have the right to life, the right to free speech, the right to respect for your private life and family and home for. rivers and trees and nature, we have the right to restoration, the right not to be destroyed in a way that can't regenerate, for rivers, the right, to be free from pollution, for trees, the right to not be chopped down   so that's the first thing. And then the second thing, when we talk about rights of nature is giving nature a voice within our legal system. And that might seem a bit strange at first, because how can trees speak in our legal system?  How can rivers bring a legal case? But actually, it's kind of a good analogy with children because many children can't bring legal cases themselves.  Some children can't even speak yet. And even those that can can't necessarily bring their own legal case, but children still have legal rights, and they still have the ability to enforce those rights through the courts. And of course, how do children do that? Through their guardians.  So, we say for humans that where all humans have certain legal rights and those that can't enforce them themselves can have guardians do it for them. And so, we need the same for nature. We need guardians of rivers and trees to enforce the legal rights that nature has and should have and ensure that those who would damage nature can't just get away with that because no one is acting for trees and rivers in our legal system.

Can you give us some examples of your work and involvement in projects? 

I've dealt with probably dozens of, different cases involving trees where a lot of the time where local communities are trying to stop trees they love being destroyed. I do like talking about Wellingborough. because it nicely illustrates where some of the failure of our current law is. So, in Wellingborough, a group of residents wanted to stop, over 60 of this incredible avenue of lime trees that line the entrance to their town being destroyed.

And those trees had what's called tree preservation orders on them. So legally they shouldn't be destroyed. That's the first thing that the law said, these trees shouldn't be destroyed. And yet a local developer wanted to destroy them. And then the police were helping the developer destroy those trees, even though it was illegal to do so.

So, I wrote an advice for the local residents saying, the law says these trees shouldn't be destroyed. Thought that would be enough. And the police carried on helping the developer destroy the trees by arresting local people standing underneath them. I was so upset and outraged by it I went to Wellingborough to just talk to the police and when the police then threatened to arrest me for standing underneath the tree, I then climbed the tree and occupied it for a day. Eventually, I negotiated that if I came down from the tree, the council would talk to local residents and then local residents raised lots of money to bring a court case. And then the court case came back and said that actually my advice was right. And it would be illegal to fell the trees.  So, if I hadn't climbed that tree, then dozens of trees would have been destroyed when the law said they shouldn't be. And I find that really interesting. there's a quote from, the Lorax, which says, I speak for the trees for the trees have no tongues. And think that whole case illustrates who is speaking for the trees, who is acting as their guardian, because the law said one thing, but the council and the police, all people who should have been upholding the law. And in a lot of times, it means ordinary people like you and me becoming the guardians of those trees and speaking for them and making sure that the laws we have are upheld for those trees.  Another is, on the River Roding, I think that the key thing to note on the roading is that I have not been appointed by anybody , to look after the river. I just decided that I wanted to do that. And, I don't have any greater power than anybody else to do what I'm doing here. And yet, just by being here. loving and caring for the river and doing whatever I can to peacefully uphold the rights that it should have. I've been able to make a difference in dozens of different ways to the river from stopping sewage, picking out rubbish, planting trees, making developments alongside the river better, stopping destructive schemes that would damage habitat around here. 

And it's a really poignant story, involving, some really lovely birds in the center of Barking where I live.  So Barking is in London, East London. It's very urban. And a few years ago, on the way to work, I spotted these amazing birds flying above the river, right in central Barking. It wasn't the nicest place. Kind of horrible, to be honest, but the birds were loving it. They were having a great time, and I started observing these birds and realized over time that they were sand martins, which fly all the way over from Africa to nest normally in sandy cliffs. But in barking, they found old concrete pipes in the river wall and just started a colony there.   And then, I heard from the Crown Estate so the, the King effectively who owns the river,,  a developer wanted to do river wall works and were we okay with that, as the guardians of the river, and, , I replied, absolutely fine to do these works, but it's a criminal offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act to disturb these birds while they're nesting. And you've got to stop and do it differently, and you have to do the works outside of breeding season so it doesn't disturb the birds. Make sure all the nesting holes are replaced. And also make sure that you put in, if you can, new holes so the colony can expand. And the developer said, yeah, that's actually fine. That's, you know, no real difficulty for us.

And they did the works, put the new nesting holes in. And this year the sand martins returned. to their colony. And what I love about that story is that, you know, firstly, if, if I hadn't noticed that the birds were there, no one would even know, and they would have just destroyed their colony. But equally, just by knowing it, it wasn't any great hardship for the developer to do that, it didn't cost them any more money, really. It was just like, knowing what the river needs, speaking for it, and acting in its interests. And by doing that, I was able to you know, help this amazing colony of birds, which also brings great joy to me.

So those are just a couple of examples, but I think they illustrate this idea of what can be achieved by having guardians for nature that speak powerfully in its interests in whatever way they can. 

Paul, how did you establish yourself as the guardian of the River Roding, such that the Crown Estates, got in contact with you about the birds? 

So, I basically, I actually just moved here and then just set up a project, which I called Friends of the River Facebook group and then just started doing volunteer days. So, my first volunteer day was just me, and my second volunteer day was me and another person. And then eventually, like, five people joined, and then 20, and then 30.  And eventually, the Crown Estate got in contact and said, actually, we really like what you're doing on the river.  And we'd like to make it more official. So, I set up a charity then called the River Roading Trust, and the charity then rents the river from the Crown Estate, and we act as their kind of eyes and ears and do all the things locally. And then that charity is what pays for the trees and that kind of thing.  but, just by having that Facebook group and even unofficially there's still a lot I think I could, I could do here.

I really want to emphasise; guardianship is something that Everyone can do, and everyone has something to contribute. Everyone has different skills they can give in service of nature. And yeah, around the country, many different community groups and guardian groups I've worked with are just ordinary people who just say.

I'm going to do whatever it takes peacefully to protect the part of nature that I love. 

It's so important, isn't it? And particularly for young people for whom, form the majority of our audience, they will have their eyes and ears out in a way that perhaps adults who have their day-to-day activities won't do.

So, it's very positive because Sometimes people can get a bit sad and worried that they can't do anything so that sounds like a great thing. Everyone can do something and just start small, start with the obvious things you know, let’s pick the litter up, and, you know, children especially have a real ability to learn and spot patterns and see what, what needs doing. And also a lot of the time, this kind of powerful sense of right and wrong to go and do what's needed.  

And I completely agree.   My grandparent’s cemetery in Romania, there was a tree that that you could see from my house. So, you'd know where they were. And then, this person started to cut it down without anyone's permission. So, my mum contacted her journalist friend to write a massive story, and now there's a new tree planted   

Yeah.  I find it’s Children who are particularly outraged by the destruction of a tree. I feel like young people really a lot of time, get it more than adults do. So, listen, obviously be guided. By adulting what you do in your campaigning but also listen your intuition. A lot of the time, it's quite a powerful guide to what's right and what's wrong 

Are there any other examples of countries where nature has been given legal rights and is working to protect nature now?

Yeah. So, what's amazing about rights of nature, it's already a reality in a number of countries around the world. So, uh, most famously, Ecuador. And so, you know, earlier on, I spoke about the rights and the guardianship. So, Ecuador is the best example of rights for nature. So it has rights of nature in its constitution. And not only that, it's now being used in, I think, over 70 legal cases in Ecuador. to actively protect nature. So, in 2023, I was lucky enough to go there and I got to go and visit a forest that had been given its rights and as a result had been saved from being destroyed by mining, the constitutional court said, no, we have rights of nature in our constitution. This would fundamentally affect the rights of the forest to exist. And therefore, the mining must be cancelled. Um and the other type of rights of nature, the sort of guardianship. listening to the voice of nature is in New Zealand, where the Whanganui River was granted it, in 2017, an act of New Zealand Parliament gave, what's called self-ownership, so the river owns itself, and legal personhood, which is amazing, and also a guardianship body, to speak for the river and to bring legal cases in its name.  Basically, legal personhood means the ability to sue and be sued and to be heard in our legal system but there are non-humans which have legal personhood. So, companies, for instance, they aren't human beings. They're just. fictional legal entities, but companies can sue and be sued um, And the Wanganui River can now do the same. So, if someone pollutes the Whanganui River, it has a guardianship body who can and will bring a legal action in the name of the river to stop that damage happening.  

Apart from projects relating to rivers or forests, can the idea of rights of nature have a role in more day-to-day work?  

Dealing with things through the legal system is only one way. Companies have a huge amount of influence in what happens to nature. And a lot of that influence is outside the law.  There are also a lot of voluntary ways that companies could act differently that could have a big impact for nature. And so, we worked with a company called Faith in Nature to put a representative, a director representing nature onto their board for the first time. And  our nature on the board project. now that's been replicated at a number of other companies and more and more are joining. So, they now have directors on their boards who speak for nature. in what the company does. Now, of course, nature can't say, well, I want you to shut down your company and give all the proceeds to, to the trees. But it can still have big impacts in the ways that companies operate. And we're now also extending that to charities. And other organizations so that's not about saying the law says you have to do this.

It's about, okay, these are all the ways you can relate to nature. How can you have a successful business or charity or government department that actually also respects and enhances nature? And the answer in most cases, there is a lot that can be done for the benefit of nature, whilst also having a successful organization.

So is there a lot of opposition to what you want to achieve?   What are some of the arguments people use and how do you respond?

In general, there's a lot of love towards nature in our society, I think.  And I find, for instance, in tree cases, where trees are going to be destroyed, the majority of people are overwhelmingly in favour of saving trees.  Even people who, you know, aren't the usual environmentalist kind of people. There's a kind of cross political outrage about sewage in our rivers and the damage and destruction to rivers. I think some of the difficulties come when, there's what's seen as a clash between the economy and nature. And the answer to it is balancing the rights of humans and nature, and also understanding that everything we value, everything we have as a society is, in the end, based on having a functioning earth and a flourishing nature.So in the short term, it might be in the interests of humans to just make some profit by building over some  parts of nature in a very destructive way. more houses, more roads, more factories, more offices. But actually, in the long term, we rely on nature as much as nature relies on us, and we can't have a flourishing society if nature is not flourishing too. So in the law of human rights, very few rights are what's called absolute.  So we balance these rights using tests of what's called reasonableness and proportionality. And I think we need to do the same for, The rights of nature and the needs of humans.  Balance the needs to build things with the rights of nature to exist.And in all my practical experiences on the road and in all the campaigns I've done with lawyers for nature, it's normally very possible to. Balance those interests with a bit of imagination and a bit of effort. To give you an example, there was a massive campaign a few years ago  in Sheffield in Northern England, where the council wanted to fell 17, 500 street trees against the wish of local people there was a big campaign and local people eventually won. But what was really interesting was the council said, we have to fell these trees because we need to fix the pavement. And we literally cannot fix the pavement unless we fell the trees. Eventually, after the local people won the campaign, they worked with the council  to try and find imaginative solutions  and then it turned out not a single tree had to be felled. Not a single one. And it was amazing. There was these videos online of local people working with the Rose department and they say, well, we have to fail this tree because it's pushed the curb stone out and it's the trees are growing too big. And they were like, well, can you not just put a half curb in? And they were like, yeah, we can. And then, oh, we have to fell the tree because it's made a big mound on the pavement. And they were like, well, can you not just take the asphalt away and make, put what's called flexi paving in instead? And they were like, oh, yeah, we can actually. And they saved every single tree.  And in a lot of cases, just by designing buildings differently, putting buildings around trees, or doing imaginative ways of it, we can have both. 

So, what has been the reaction from ordinary people to the idea of giving legal rights to nature? So, genuinely, I, I love giving talks about rights of nature because in my experience, the number of people that have heard of the concept at the start of a talk,  is often not that many, and  people  think it's a good idea by the end of a talk.

And lots of people initially are like, well, how does that work? That doesn't make any sense. How can a, how can a tree sue someone in court? And how can a river have legal personhood? What, can I sue a river that floods my house?  I just sort of explain, you know, all the ideas that I've set out to you today and how legal personhood exists for companies and how you can have rights without necessarily having responsibilities.

For instance, young children have certain legal rights, but they don't have A lot of legal responsibilities. They're too young to be legally responsible for things. And the same is often true of nature.  And when I've explained it all through and talked through some of the things as I have with you today, a lot of people go, actually that makes a lot of sense.

And actually it's crazy that we give legal rights and legal person to companies, which are completely made up fictional entities, but we don't give them to our trees and rivers that we love and that we ultimately rely on for our own existence.  

One of the things Paul that I wondered whether you could talk about was, you were called to serve on a jury and for your oath you decided to swear on what's most sacred to you. We've done a program, about juries and the importance of, even if you're not religious, to demonstrate in the strongest way that you're going to do your best for the process. Would you, be able to talk a bit about, your thinking behind what you did.

Yeah, so I was called to do jury service, and, I obviously had to give an oath to try the case faithfully and I was starting to think in advance what would be a meaningful oath to me. Do I want to take an oath on the Bible or, you know, affirm, give a secular promise to tell the truth?  And I realized what was most sacred to me, which is my river.  And I also  have over time realized that If I can call it a spiritual transformation towards nature is also needed. I think we, we talked a bit earlier about what  the biggest objections to rights of nature are. And a lot of the time it's this economic stuff.  And actually, unless we start relating to nature differently, as in some ways that nature is in some ways sacred, I think we will struggle to give it. the level of protection that it actually deserves.  And getting people to relate to nature differently is something that I’ve come to realize is important. And I realized that by giving the oath on the river, not only would it be the most sacred promise that I can give, I would also maybe start getting people to think differently about  our rivers and nature  and to Maybe  even if they don't relate to nature as sacred, even seeing me relate to it as sacred could shift how they see the river. And so, I asked the judge, there was a bit of legal argument about it. But in the end, I gave an affirmation first and then gave my river oath afterwards.  I had some river, had some roading water in court with me. So I put my fingers in the river whilst I was talking and a little cup on the desk in front of me and said, um, I swear by the river roading from her source in molehill green to her confidence with the Thames embarking that I will faithfully try the case according to and give a true verdict according to the evidence.

There's a lot of press about it, really. I think it caught a lot of people's imagination because I think an increasing amount of people do relate to nature as in some way sacred.  I think we need to be more open with that.  So that. other people can see it too, then maybe it will change how they relate to nature as well.

We know that many people, especially children, are very worried about the destruction of the natural world and can feel helpless. What can you say to them to feel more powerful?

I really  urge anyone who feels like that to step up and step into the role of nature guardianship.  Even as a young person, there is a huge amount you can do. Find the nature. That you love locally, whether it's a river or a woodland or a park or an area of nature, or maybe a specific species and start researching what that nature needs to protect it, you know, other local trees that you love. Do they have tree preservation, or can you apply for those? Can you get your parents or your school to help you apply for them or do a campaign to protect those trees and make sure they're safe and cared for? Can you go to your river and observe what does this, what does a healthy river look like?

And what does an unhealthy river look like? What does my river look like? Is there litter here? Should there be more trees here? Can we do habitat restoration? Can I go into my garden and make it more wildlife rich by planting trees or putting in a pond, those kinds of things.  And just start the process. In many ways, it's easy to do when you're young. It's easy to learn and also you've got longer to do things. You know, I really came into this when I was in my late 20s and I've never studied ecology. So it's all self-taught. And I just decided that that's what I wanted to do and anyone listening can do that too. I really would say though, the key thing is not to be hopeless.  It is all to play for.  Everyone has a role to play, and I know that every single person here listening can make a difference if they stand up for nature and start taking action for it and stepping into that role of nature guardianship. So that's what I'd urge everyone listening to do. 

So, I have a question I ask all of our guests. What were you like at 10, and what did you imagine you'd go on to be as an adult?  I was very talkative. kind of argumentative in a kind of not screaming and shouting, but kind of like liking a good discussion kind of child.I don't know if I was 10 years old when I wanted to be a barrister, but I'm pretty sure by the age of 14, I wanted to be a barrister. and that's obviously what I went on to do. I also was really into nature. I used to go off like wandering into nature by myself. So, I guess I was always connected to nature, but I didn't really put the two together being an arrester and loving nature until I was in my late twenties, um, which is when this sort of journey of getting involved in rights of nature really started. So yeah, I think both factors that have led me to the adulthood I'm now doing were there, but I think it was only when I joined them together unexpectedly when I was well into adulthood.   

Well thank you so much Paul for talking to us about this very important subject today.  Do you have any final advice for children that find this area interesting and would like to know and find out more or become involved?  Start reading about rights of nature. Maybe if you can do a project in school to tell others about it and what it is, and actually how we can relate to nature differently, that would be great. But the key thing is,  up. to see yourself as a guardian of nature and understand the great power that you have to protect and restore it

Thank you so much. That was amazing. That was great. Thank you so much, Paul. Thanks a lot. Bye.

This is such an important subject that concerns us all, isn't it? What do you think about what Paul told us? 

Well, I find it very interesting that using the notion of laws has been used in a new way to protect nature, such as rivers and forests.  I think it's also very interesting learning that you can be a guardian of nature in a specific way, such as Paul with the river roading.

Yes, I, I really enjoyed hearing about how his project came about, and that it has become so important to him that when   he was on a jury, he decided to swear an oath using the water of the river roading. He also encouraged people and young people in particular to talk about this at schools and perhaps do a project and look at. the nature potential around them. 

Paul also emphasizes that we should have hope for the future, and we can all play a part in protecting and restoring nature ourselves. 

In all our podcasts, we've been exploring how laws work and affect young people. All of these things help children understand their rights and responsibilities so that they can make informed decisions about their future. Not only about their lives, but also about voting for MPs who make the laws and understanding how the legal justice system works.  It's also important that children know they should be kept safe and that adults must care for them. Remember, if you have any worries, talk to an adult you trust and tell them how you feel. This includes your teachers at school, who are there to look after you too. So, tell them that you need to talk to them.  You can find more information on the KidsLawInfo website.  Keep your questions coming in. Please subscribe, rate, and share the podcast with your friends. See you soon in the next episode!  Keep your questions coming in. Please subscribe, rate, and share the podcast with your friends. See you soon in the next episode.

Bye