Who Owns History? The Parthenon Marbles Debate

Should the Parthenon (often called the “Elgin”) Marbles be returned to Greece? In this episode of Kids Law, Alma-Constance and Lucinda explore one of the biggest cultural and legal debates in the UK. The ancient sculptures were taken from the Parthenon temple in Athens over 200 years ago and are now displayed in the British Museum. Some people believe they were legally acquired. Others argue they should be reunited with the rest of the temple in Greece. So what does the law say? And can the law change?

We’re joined by solicitor Mark Stephens CBE, consultant at Howard Kennedy and a long-time campaigner for the reunification of the Parthenon Marbles. Mark explains:

• How Museum laws developed over time
• Why national museums in the UK currently cannot return objects, even if they want to
• Why some countries say cultural objects are more than “museum pieces” — they are part of identity
• What “provenance checking” means and why it matters today
• Whether returning objects would empty museums — or make them fairer

We also explore:

• Why learning from the past isn’t the same as judging it
• Whether the age of criminal responsibility (currently 10 in England and Wales) is too young
• Why lowering the voting age to 16 could strengthen democracy
• How the law evolves as society grows up

Mark shares his belief that the law is strongest when it protects the smallest voices — and that asking questions is often where change begins.

When he was 10, Mark says he was very curious, asked a lot of questions and cared about fairness a lot.

As always, Kids Law helps young people understand how laws affect them — and how they can shape the future.

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Please subscribe, rate and share the podcast — and keep your brilliant questions coming.

 References

https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/british-museum-story/contested-objects-collection

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/time-to-rethink-our-museums-and-return-stolen-goods-says-high-profile-lawyer/5110128.article

The British Committee for the Reunification of the Parthenon Marbles

https://www.parthenonuk.com/component/tags/tag/mark-stephens-cbe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Stephens_(solicitor) 

The Art Newspaper

Howard Kennedy

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Transcript

Hi, I'm Alma Constance. And I'm Lucinda. And we're here on the Kids Law Podcast (and now we're on series six!) to talk about how laws affect all of us, especially kids and young people as they grow up. So, did you know that children as young as 10 can actually be held responsible for crimes and might even have to go to court?Plus, kids have special rights given by the United Nations. That's why it's super important for young people to know a bit about the law and how it can help protect them and others. So, what are we going to look at in this episode? Amma-Constance.

Well, since I was very young, I've loved going to muss and I always think about how lucky I am to live in a place like London, where I am based with such amazing galleries and so many collections.But I have been hearing discussions recently about the objects that museums hold and which came from other countries either taken or sold a long time ago, and that these countries want them returned. I wonder who really owns them now and can it really be legal to return them?

 You're absolutely right. Museums in other countries such as the Smithsonian in the United States have returned long lost sculptures to India after discovering they were taken illegally. In the u, a recent change in the law makes it easier for some museums to give back cultural treasures on moral grounds.

 But national museums are currently excluded from that rule, and that has raised the question about the ancient Greek statues, which are held in the British Museum, which were part of a temple called the Parthenon in Athens, commonly known as the Elgin Marbles after Lord Elgin, who brought them back to England, and this argument has been brought right back into the spotlight.

 Let's talk to Mark Stevens, CBE solicitor and consultant at law firm, Howard Kennedy, who's been deeply involved in the campaign for the Parthenon Marbles to be returned to Greece.

 Hi Mark. Welcome to our Kids Law podcast. We are so happy to have you here with us today. So, could you start off by telling us about the background and laws that govern the issue of museum objects? 

 Thank you Alma-Constance and Lucinda. I'm really happy to be here. So a long time ago, especially when Britain was very powerful, people travelled the world, collecting objects. They weren't able to fly like they do now. They went by boat. It took a lot of time and sometimes they brought things fairly, sometimes they borrowed them and didn't give them back, and sometimes they took them during war. Think of it a bit like this. Imagine someone visited your house like. 200 years ago, took your favourite family photo and put it in their own living room.

 Back then, people didn't always think that that was wrong, but they would today. And the law about museums and objects in them grew slowly over time. Like school rules do they evolve? We now have UK laws about what museums. Can and can't give back, as Lucinda was saying, and international rules that say that countries should protect important cultural objects in museums, and the tricky part is that some of the older laws still loop back and essentially mean that national museums can't give that objects back even when they think it's right to do so.

 So why are some countries asking for the objects to be returned if they're already kept safe in public museums? 

 Well, that's a really good question, Alma Constance. Many of these objects aren't just old things. They're like a country's family photos, a school trophy that belongs to the whole community, or really even a religious object, a bit like a sacred book or a special place.

 And some were taken stolen during wars or sold when countries had no real choice. And even if they're safe in a museum, they're far away from the people in the country, so they can't easily see them. They can't learn from them, they can't use them in their traditions. It's a bit like saying, don't worry, your birthday present safe, but it's in someone else's house forever. So being safe isn't the same as being home. 

So, what actually is the current situation? Can't the museums just tandem? 

 It sounds simple, doesn't it? But it isn't quite that simple, some museums actually aren't allowed by law to give objects back, even if they want to. The law says they can usually only remove objects if they're broken. Copies are not needed anymore. The good news is that things are changing. Countries like France and Germany and the Netherlands have returned important objects like the Benin bronzes, the Pope has returned, his parts of the Parthenon marbles, but in the UK. A new law now lets many museums return items if there's a strong moral reason. But national museums like the British Museum are still stuck with the older rules. So this isn't really about museums being mean or nasty. It's about the law being pretty slow. And sometimes the law's a bit like an old lock on a new door. It works, but it still doesn't really fit. So can you tell us how you actually became involved in the campaign to return the Parthenon marbles, and what are its aims?

 Well, I've always been interested in fairness, especially when powerful people or countries have more control than others. They're like bullies. So I'm part of a group called the British Committee for the Reunification of the Parthenon Marbles. Bit of a mouthful, I know, but we believe the sculptures belong together in Greece where they were made. I've also worked on cases where museums have returned stolen temple parts, like to Cambodia. And seeing those pieces go home was incredibly moving and incredibly important to the people whose culture they've been removed from. Think of it a bit like helping a jigsaw puzzles broken for centuries finally being put back together. History makes more sense when its pieces are reunited in the same place.

Some people might say we shouldn't judge the past by today's standards. How do you respond to that? Well, that comes up a lot and it's important, and thank you for raising it. We don't expect people in the past to think exactly like us, but we do expect ourselves to learn from them. So lots of things used to be legal, slavery, child labour, even women not being allowed to vote just because they were women. The law changed because people realized those things were wrong. Saying we know better now isn't being unfair, it's being grown up. I think admitting mistakes is how societies improve. So learning from the past, in my view, isn't judging it. It's growing up. 

 So how do you see these situations being resolved? Does it need a change in the law? 

I think it, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Museums and countries can share objects, create long-term loans, work together on exhibitions, use digital technology so everyone can see things. All around the world. But returning objects doesn't mean empty museums. It means fairer museums all around the world. Think of it a bit like sharing books between libraries. Everyone still gets to read, and so sharing history makes it stronger, in my view, not smaller. 

 So how do museums or others know that objects they acquire are legally obtained today?

 That's a really good question. And today museums do something called provenance checking. That means they carefully check an object's life history, who made it or which culture made it, who owned it, was it taken or was it sold fairly? It's a bit like checking the history of a second-hand bike Before you buy it, you want to know it's not stolen before you, you take it on.

 Can you tell us a bit more about some of the other cases you've been involved in and which has meant to you the most personally and why?

 One case that really mattered to me was about McDonald's. Where two ordinary people stood up to McDonald's. A huge company. Who didn't like the way in which McDonald's was spoiling the environment and, using its supply chain to get. Beef, whether it's beef burgers, it became known as mc libel and that's because libel, which is saying bad things about people, and I had the privilege of working on that case with our current Prime Minister Kier Starmer. And it was really where two ordinary people stood up to criticise a huge company. And it demonstrated that the law. Isn't just for rich or powerful people, it's also for fairness, for free speech, for ordinary voices. And that idea of standing up when something feels wrong, connects all of my work and indeed, all the work that the Prime Minister Ki Dharma did when he was, at the law, we used to think the law is strongest when it protects the smallest voices.

So we have a question. I ask all of our guests, what were you like at 10 and what did you imagine you'd go on to be as an adult? 

Well, I was curious and I asked a lot of questions why, I didn't plan to be a lawyer, but I cared about fairness a lot. If something didn't seem right, I wanted to understand it. That curiosity turned out to be an important skill for me, in being a lawyer. It's a bit like. Making sure that everybody has a voice in the school room, making sure it's fair for everybody and that's why I like the law. 

Mark, you might know that , one of the reasons why we have the question about what were you like at 10, because Alma and I, amongst other people think it's outrageous that the age of criminal responsibility is ten's it puts  it in a nutshell when people say, gosh, I was running around just playing with whatever, being a child. Exactly. So I wonder whether you would be happy to talk about what your views are? yeah. 

So Mark, what are your opinions on the age of criminal responsibility being 10 in England and Wales? 

I think it's incredibly young and I think it's also out of line with most of Europe. When we are 10, we understand the basic, between right and wrong. We know if we are being naughty, we know if we are telling a lie. But we don't understand the import or I think the consequences of what we are doing. I remember when I was 10, I was a bit mischievous. I did things that were wrong, which. I could have been criminally responsible for. I'm glad that when I was young, the criminal age of consent was 13. It's gone down and for that reason, I think imposing criminal responsibility at such a tender age. I'm not sure. That's a good thing.

It's a manifesto pledge, the age of voting being lowered to, 16 and 17. Presumably that will happen in, in due course.

So it would be interesting to hear your views about, what you think would help young people, prepare themselves  feel more confident to be able to choose how to vote ? One of the arguments women were told that they didn't know enough and weren't educated enough to be able to vote. 

 I think that it's not a terrible thing to lower the voting age to 16. I think that when people are at that age, we have the formations of our views, the decisions that we are making. I remember that I wasn't able to vote. For the first time until I was 20, because elections only come along every four years, and there was one when I was 16 and another one when I was 20. So I think that this is important. It engages us with, civic responsibility and it's, I think, the law changing to reflect. E evolving standards. So if we think back into the history of voting to begin with, it was only men who owned land then all men were allowed, whether they owned land or not, but women weren't allowed to vote. And then, you know, in the last century, women were allowed to vote. And now I think we, we, we then had it at the age of 21. It's now been lured to 18 and now to 16. And I think that's a logical conclusion because. If you are 16, you're going to be voting for policies that impact you when you are at university and when you are starting out in life, perhaps buying or renting your first home. And it's important that the politicians represent you and your voice. If young people are awarded the right to vote, the MPs will have to specifically think of the issues that touch and concern them on a daily basis. And that must be right, given that, but they're really. The future

 yeah. I mean, I, I think that, MPs, when they go into parliament, think about the people who are voting for them. So if you don't have the vote., then they're not really thinking about you. They're not prioritizing you in quite the same way. We know that pensioners have a very powerful voice because they always go out and vote.

 So I think it's important for young people whose lives are going to be affected by policies that are. Put in place when they're in their late teens, to have a voice and so that the parliamentarians, the MPs are thinking about them and what they can do for those individuals who are going to go off to university or go to work in, in the next couple of years.

 Thank you so much, mark, for joining us. Do you have any final advice for young people who might want to understand more about this specific area? 

 Yeah, I think ask questions, read widely, and don't assume the rules are perfect. The law isn't something distant.  So if something feels unfair, that feeling matters. And often that's where things begin to change. Think about slavery and how people came to abolish slavery. The law isn't just about rules, it's about people, and it has to serve people and be fair to everyone. 

Amazing. Okay. Well thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Good.  Bye bye.

Well, Alma, what do you think about what Mark told us? 

Well, many museum artifacts were taken a long time ago through borrowing trade or force, but international organizations now urge countries to return significant cultural items.

 These objects often hold deep religious or cultural meaning like the Ben and bronzes. Returning them isn't about empty museums but promoting fairness and shared heritage. Museums can collaborate through shared custody, digital access, and stronger provenance research. As society matures, they should apply justice to these matters just as much as significant past events such as slavery, voting, and equality.

 Mark said that we should learn from the past and not settle for unfair decision.

 Mark also talked about the aid of criminal responsibility and shared his thoughts with us. He agrees that a 10-year-old only has basic understanding of right and wrong and not that the consequences their actions could impose on them, such as criminal punishment.

I think it's very significant that a lawyer so experienced and knowledgeable as Mark thinks that the age of criminal responsibility for children should be raised, and also that he's in favour of young people being able to vote at the ages of 16 and 17. In our podcast, we've been exploring how laws work and affect young people.

 We hope that our podcast will help you understand how laws are made, how the legal justice system works, and that. This knowledge will help you be able to make informed decisions not only in your life, but also when you're able to vote for an MP who will represent you in parliament and make laws. It's also important that children know that they should be kept safe and that adults must care for them. Remember, if you have any worries, talk to an adult you trust and tell them how you feel. This includes your teachers at school who are there to look after you too. So tell them if you need to talk to them. You can call Childline on zero eight hundred one one. If you're under 18 and want free confidential advice, you can find more information on Kids law.info website. 

Keep your questions coming in. Please subscribe, rate and share the podcast of your friends. See you soon in the next episode. They're there to help you. For more information, you can always visit the Kids Law Info website. Bye.