Justice Delayed? Courts, Prisons and the Right to a Lawyer Episode

Why does funding legal advice matter and how law affects everyone in society and why delays in courts and overcrowded prisons are becoming a serious problem.  Alma-Constance and Lucinda explore what’s happening inside the UK’s justice system with Richard Atkinson, criminal defence solicitor with more than 30 years’ experience and the 180th President of the Law Society of England and Wales. 

In this episode we discuss

• Why criminal trials are now scheduled  four years into the future, what prison overcrowding means for justice
• Why legal aid is such an important public service
• How early legal advice can prevent problems in areas like housing and  family life
• Whether the age of criminal responsibility should be raised
• The importance of investing in courts, lawyers and modern technology

Richard also shares a powerful story from his career defending children and young people and that when he was 10 years old he wanted to be an RAF pilot and fly fast jets!

Together we discuss how the justice system works, why funding matters, and how law affects everyone in society — even if we don’t think about it every day.

As always, Kids Law helps young people understand how laws affect them — and how they can shape the future.

If you have worries or need support:
Childline: 0800 1111 (free confidential advice for under 18)
Visit: www.kidslaw.info

Please subscribe, rate and share the podcast — and keep your brilliant questions coming.

Resources

Richard Atkinson LinkedIn

Richard Atkinson with Law Society Gazette

The Law Society

Tuckers Solicitors

If you've got any questions, ideas about a topic or someone to interview, get in touch, we'd love to hear from you!! You can email us at kidslaw@spark21.org, contact us through the website: www.kidslaw.info  or through social media: Facebook, X and Instagram @KidsLawInfo 

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See you soon in the next episode!

Transcript

Richard Atkinson Transcript

Alma: Hi, I'm Amal Constance. 

Lucinda: And I'm Lucinda. 

Alma: And we're here on the Kids Law Podcast to talk about how laws affect all of us, especially kids and young people as we grow up.

So did you know that children as young as 10 can actually be held responsible for crimes and might even have to go to courts? Plus kids have special rights given by the United Nations. That's why it's super important for young people to know a bit about the law and how it can help protect them and others.

Lucinda: So what are we going to look at in this episode, Amma Constance? 

Alma: Well, in the news there are lots of stories about delays in courts and prison overcrowding, so I'd like to know how lawyers feel about this and whether they can make changes to improve this specific situation. 

Lucinda: Let's talk to Richard Atkinson, who was the 180th president of the Law Society of England and Wales until 2025. He has 30 years’ experience specialising in criminal law, focusing on serious crime litigation, and has appeared in several high profile cases. 

Alma: Hi, Richard. Welcome to our Kids Love podcast. We're so glad to have you here. So, could you start off by telling us why you wanted to become the president of the Law Society and what changes you wanted to achieve?

Richard: Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me. It was something that evolved through my involvement with the law society. So, I started as a member of their criminal law committee because that was my professional background, and I wanted to become involved in some of the policy work trying to, improve the way in which criminal, practice and procedure is developed. I saw a wider perspective of what it is solicitors and the profession can do, and I wanted to be able to make a difference, and to improve both our general society, and the position of solicitors.

Alma: So, what are the problems that face the legal justice system and how has this happened? 

Richard: Gosh, there are lots of, problems, I suppose the two biggest issues that come forward in the criminal justice system are overcrowding in our prisons, and the time it takes for cases to get to trial. And what that means is that there are now more than 50 cases that I'm aware of, who have their trial dates fixed for 2030. So we're talking about four years wait, after you've been accused, you've pleaded not guilty, and then you've got a further four year wait, that's a delay for those accused. a delay for those making the accusation. And a delay for those who are going to be asked to give evidence and be witnesses, there are some surrounding problems as well about the shortage of lawyers able to undertake the work. And so our justice system, is in, real trouble.  and the government have recognised this. A former senior politician, David Gork. He's put forward some recommendations 

Alma: So thinking about funding as well, many people think that law is only about crime, so could you just explain how legal aid is needed in other areas as well? 

Richard: Absolutely. So Legal Aid is very much a vital public service. I would say. It's like the health service, it's like education. It's a way that we ensure people can obtain justice. So early advice, given in cases can save people finding themselves, having to rely on other areas. One example is housing law. If you have a problem with your house that you rent from, a landlord and the conditions are poor where you might have damp in the house, which causes, respiratory breathing problems for those living in it.

The landlord is in a very strong position. Because he, she is the person in charge of your house. If you want to get them to put that into a proper state of repair, you are going to need help because you're not going to understand the procedures. The arguments to make or what your rights are. And so, you need a lawyer. And for a lot of people, they can't afford a lawyer. So, the way in which they're able to access that advice is through legal aid, so legal aid, is really, really important the state of our civil legal aid is again, very poor. So, about half of people who want to access legal advice on housing issues don't have a local legal aid provider available to them. Nine in 10 people who want advice on education law issues don't have a legal aid provider available to them. And these are really important matters. I’ll give just one example: if we look at social care, the Human Rights Act gives you a right to family life. Two people who had been married for 59 years. And they ended up in hospital, and when the wife was discharged, a decision was made to put her in a care home and to discharge her husband to their former home. So, they were separating them. and this had a tremendously, bad effect on both of them, upset them enormously.

.And so, a challenge was brought. Under the Human Rights Act saying they had a right to family life. Now, they wouldn't have been in a position to bring that challenge themselves. They needed legal advice, and that legal advice came through legal aid.

Alma: So, do you think there is a lack of understanding about why it is so important to have a strong legal justice system?

Richard: I think what's a common position is that for the majority of people, they don't come up against these issues every day. And so they're not issues that they think about. Also, I think, for some people issues that they think aren't ever going to be relevant to them. And so they are of low priority, and so people don't necessarily think about the importance of a justice system in the same way as they. do in other areas, of public service. they. More regularly have contact with their GP or with a hospital and so see the importance of the National Health Service. Their children go to school, so they see the importance of the education system. But not everyone comes into contact with the law. Invariably, when they do it's over something that's really, really important to them. And the criminal justice system is absolutely fundamental to, the way in which we conduct our lives. We talk about, living by the rule of law, and what we mean is that however important, however, rich We all are subject to the laws of the land, including the government and. If we want our society to be governed by laws, that people are able to access the opportunity to come before those courts. In crime it's the state that prosecute people. That, say we think you committed, a crime the police investigate with all of their resources. People are then prosecuted by an organization called the Crown Prosecution Service with all of their resources. And if you are the individual who's been accused of something, particularly if it's something that you haven't done, then you need assistance in being able to defend those allegations. If you don't have access to a lawyer to help you defend it, then that's when things can go seriously wrong. And we know mistakes happen. The criminal justice system, we talk about miscarriages of justice. And sadly, they happen all too often. I'm sure many, are following what's going on with the postmistresses and postmasters who've been wrongly accused of crimes they didn't commit. And the more times you have miscarriages of justice, the more people lose confidence in the [system. We have to have a proper justice system that works and is effective. And perhaps as we focus on how we in this country see our justice system, it's always worth understanding that we have a really strong international reputation for our justice system. That reputation leads to work coming into this country. To people investing in the country. To legal work coming in, and all of that adds to our economy. So, our justice system is really important for all of us and our society. It's also really important for our economy.

It's fundamental that we make sure that people understand a bit more about our justice system, that we talk about it, and therefore, I thank you for that opportunity. 

Alma:  So, from your experience and your perspective, what are the key changes that need to be made? 

Richard: Well, a lot of the problems, come down to the [00:09:00] fact that we haven't funded our justice system properly for. Over 30 years. And it is very much an investment because as we've talked about, investing in certain parts of the justice system will save money in other areas, of public service. for example. In the NHS, and so it's really important that the government invests more money. They are looking to do it at the moment. I think also we have to make sure that we harness the benefits of technology in our justice system. And obviously, AI is making a huge difference to the way in which we are able to, process data, to, deal with issues, of large scale. And it's important that the justice system keeps up with those advances, but also, makes sure that where technology is used, it is used fairly. And properly, and that there aren't any problems with the technology, for example, building in bias to some of the outcomes. But we have to modernize, we have to harness, the technology that's there to invest if we are going to make sure that our justice system is fit for purpose. Those are the key changes that I think that, need to be made at the moment. 

Alma: So, are there examples of other countries that are able to manage their legal justice systems a bit better than us?

Richard: Well, in our commercial courts. It is still held, in the highest regard internationally. But it's fair to say that we have problems and we should look to other jurisdictions. So, for example, in Canada, they have, had to address issues of delay. They've done it through a provision they have in their constitution that says there must be a trial within a reasonable time limit. We actually have the same [provision, in our own law through the Human Rights Act, but they've looked at it very differently and have put absolute time limits on how long a case can take, which has focused the attention of the authorities. They've invested lots of money to make sure that cases come on in a sufficient time. It's fair to say, from my experience of talking with Canadian lawyers, that the other side of that coin, as it were, is that they've put all the resources into the criminal courts and therefore the civil courts and civil jurisdiction has suffered. So, it's not a perfect solution. And many countries have similar issues of backlogs and underfunded, justice systems. And that's starting to come to the fore, not just in our country. Interesting things that's being talked about now is about creating a joined up approach to our criminal justice system. And that's so important. In the United States of America, they have, problem solving courts, which have been looked on very favourably here. And we're going to look to emulate. So you might have mental health courts and drugs courts where they specifically focus on addressing the underlying problems that people have that bring them before the courts. I was talking to some American lawyers, last year, and they were telling me that one of the problems is that they haven't got enough hospital places to be able to effectively divert people from the courts, which was the. Purpose of setting up those courts. And so linking health services and justice services are really important if you're going to get the outcomes that you want. And we need to see this as one system that there should be joined up thinking, in government. 

Alma: So, could you tell us about your experiences representing children and young people, and from these experiences, what is your view about the age of criminal responsibility being 10 in England?

Richard: I've been doing this this job for an awfully long time, , I dealt with a lot of children, early on, in my career so for those who are below the age of 18 years, if you commit a criminal offense, you will, at least start and probably conclude in the youth court. it's really pleasing to note the numbers are going down. Into the youth court. In 2002/3, there were, 268,000, proven criminal, acts, by people under 18, 2024/25, that reduced to 35,600, a massive drop. So you can see there's been a dramatic reduction in a number of children going into court, which is a really good thing. In my career I've dealt with children charged with very serious offences, and less serious ones. And I've always found, it quite challenging because, of making sure that children understand, uh, the process, but also understand why they're being held culpable for what they're supposed to have done and giving them the confidence to be able to participate in their trial, which can be very daunting. When you are facing for the first time, the criminal justice system. I say it's rewarding. And lawyers can make a difference. If you'll forgive me, I'll tell you one story that I admit puts me in a good light. I think it's quite interesting. A few months ago, I got, an email completely out of the blue, from someone. And, it was, a thank you 20 years too late. And what that person said was: I doubt if you remember me, but you represented me many times when I was a child. I lived in care, and wherever I was placed at the time with foster parents or in a child's home, I would always request you or someone from the firm if arrested. The first time I met you, you were kind and listened to me. After many interactions, I came to trust and respect you, which was a rarity for me back then. It led me to remembering how much you helped me in my youth. You managed to help keep me out of prison and in mainstream education long enough to gain my GCSEs and to go on to study A levels.

That was the most heartwarming email I think I've ever received. And I think it raises some really interesting points about what it is  that you should be doing as a lawyer. Building people's trusts, having time listening, getting alongside individuals, particularly children. This particular person was in care for quite a bit of their time. Not trusting authority. Now if they're in the criminal justice system facing more authority, and they need someone on their side, they need someone to fight their corner, not to talk down to them, but to actually make it clear that you're on their side. Really, what the impact of that is. Not just keeping them out of prison, but making sure that they stay in education. So it can be very rewarding, representing children. It's also very tough, which leads me to your question about age of criminal responsibility. I have. Absolutely no doubt and have said for a very long time that it is far too low the age that we hold people criminally responsible. There is a changing mood, I think amongst some people around this. We know, for example, the United Nations has said that. 10 is too young. And one of their committees, has said that it should be 14 or 16. We know that there's a bill going through our parliament at the moment where an amendment's been put to raise it to 14. Really sadly, the government have said they would oppose that. I think that's atrocious. We now know through neuroscience and through medicine, that our brains develop over time, and that they develop, in different spheres and different ways, for much longer than we had previously thought.

And one of the things that we're being told is a proper understanding consequences and the way in which you act, you are responsible for, comes quite late in our development. Certainly past the age of 10.

Some of the counter arguments. There is one country where they have actually lowered the age of criminal responsibility. I think it was from 15 to 14, because of concerns that children are being exploited and used for criminal acts by adults. And using the fact that the child can't be prosecuted because they are below the age of criminal responsibility. I understand that, but I don't find that a compelling argument. I think that first of all, you need to make sure that if children are being exploited by adults, there should be, an aggravated offense of, inciting a child to commit a crime. A simple and as broad as that, if there are children who are susceptible to, to being, made to do things, to being exploited, then they may well need to be brought into the care regime. But that's not a reason to criminalise them. And by criminalizing people you are. Labelling them. You are also likely to turn them into that circle of offending where they commit an offense, they go into court, they come out and they commit further offenses and they then start associating more with those who have committed offenses.

It's not a great way of ensuring that young people have a future when they grow up and want to find a job, and they're labelled with their convictions that sit behind them, and there are other ways of doing it. As I've said, the numbers show that we've actually found a way of cutting crime, amongst young people, reducing those going into courts.

And a lot of that is to do with the involvement of, youth offending teams, with diverting young people from the criminal justice system. And those ways are clearly showing some success, but I think we need to be prepared to take the next step. We need to recognize that our understanding of children's development of the implications of putting children into the criminal justice system has changed from when the ages were set. We are responding at the moment to, what's seen as a significant threat of social media, an adverse threat. Through what's available to them online. And because they are, susceptible to, being influenced by that, we need to protect them. In Australia, as you probably know, they've banned children under 16 from having access to social media. There's talk about it in this country. A consultation going on, and in fact, an amendment in the House of Lords has passed to that effect. It may not make it into law, but what that shows is that there's a recognition that young minds need to be protected. Young people need to be, looked after. And yet we still say. We're worried about the influence of social media, but when you're 10, you know full well what you're doing, and if you break the criminal law, you should be prosecuted. That's just at odds with the way in which current modern thinking about children's development and culpability. And we just need to have the courage to break away from the way in which we've traditionally addressed these issues. And I know people will point to young people committing very serious crimes. That just means that they need to be dealt with, obviously in a far more intensive way, they probably need to be taken into care. They need to be taken away from their current domestic environment. Possibly put in secure accommodation because if they're capable of harming others in society to a great extent, then society deserves protection; but the protection it deserves is taking those children and educating them. And it may mean taking them out of society for a period of time. That's not the same as putting them into criminal custody and labelling them with a criminal conviction. So I I'm not saying just let young people off, I'm saying recognize their actions, but realize that their level of responsibility for it is very different to that of an adult and have a system that reflects that. 

Lucinda: You won't be surprised, Richard, that a lot of our interviewees across any number of organizations and political spectrums have very much thought that the age of criminal responsibility needs to be looked at.

And of course, we've got the examples in Scotland and in Wales where they've changed that so. It would be very good to see all the points that you so rightly raise, factored into a change. And also the fact that so much of their behavior has been impacted by their, social situation. So it's a mix of, coordinating between the criminal justice system and the social care and education, which I think you've, set out and highlighted very well. And what, and what a wonderful email to receive

Richard: It was so warming to receive that, to realise that all those trips to the police station, made a difference. It's not. What what's rewarding isn't that someone's patted you on the head, as it were, it's that you actually did make that difference. You have impacted positively on a young person's life, and you don't always know that, as you go back and forth to the police station, and you deal with cases through court. You try and do your best. You try and get the best outcome, but you don't always know. And so have someone reflect after such a long time on that yes, that, was immensely warming and, and made me very, very, very proud. 

Lucinda: As indeed you, you should be. And you know, they always say that if somebody takes the time to write, it represents a whole traunche of other people who feel the same, but they haven't actually put pen to paper. I'm sure you've helped many, many people. 

Alma: So, we do have a question that we ask all of our guests, what were you like at 10 years old and what did you imagine you'd go on to be as an adult?

Richard: So, at that time I enjoyed sport. I enjoyed playing outside with my friends. We we did a lot of that. We would go and play in the local woods. And at that time, I do remember I wasn't a great reader but made up for it later. What did I want to do? Wanted to be an RAF pilot actually. Wanted to fly fast jets, how things change. 

Alma: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. An amazing episode. Do you have any final advice for people who want to understand more about this area? 

Richard: I would say, a lot going on in the news at the moment about this. It's a very hot topic. And so, I would say read about it, read different opinions. Look at a range of sources, from, respected, areas. Not everything that appears, on the internet is, necessarily reliable. Look at different viewpoints. If you want to go a bit deeper, I can highly recommend the Law Society's website, where we have a campaigns page and a lot of information, and links to other sources of information where you can learn more. But anyone listening to this has already clearly taken the first steps in showing their interest in this topic. And I would commend them to continue to listen, to this podcast, and others that discuss and debate the justice system.

Alma: Listen to the podcast as your response - I'll be quoting that!

Lucinda: There are so many threads which interlink, and, despite. The issues that you mentioned, it is good that the rates of young people being apprehended, has gone down so much. So, there is, something positive, thank you for finding those numbers. Thank you so much. 

Alma: Thank you so much 

Richard: Thank you very much. Not at all. Bye bye. 

Lucinda: Well, Alma, what do you think about what Richard told us?

Alma: Well, Richard told us that the legal justice system is vital in everyone's everyday lives. Even if we don't meet it every day, increasing the funding can save money in other areas such as the health service. It was amazing to hear how impactful lawyers are to people. As we heard from the beautiful email Richard received, this really shows us that improving the legal justice system should be a priority for all of us, as it really does have a long-lasting benefit to society.

Lucinda: In our podcast, we've been exploring how laws work and affects young people. We hope our podcast will help you understand how laws are made and how the legal justice system works, and that this knowledge will help you make informed decisions not only in your life, but when you're able to vote for an MP who will represent you in parliament and make laws.

It's also important that children know that they should be kept safe and that adults must care for them. Remember, if you have any worries, talk to an adult you trust and tell them how you feel. This includes your teachers at school who are there to look after you too, to tell them that you need to talk to them.

You can call Childline on 0800 1111. If you're under 18 and want free confidential advice, you can find more information on Kids law.info website. 

Alma: Keep your questions coming in. Please subscribe, rate and share the podcast with your friends. See you soon in the next episode.

Bye