Who protects the courts and the rule of law?

What does the Lord Chancellor actually do? Who makes sure judges can make decisions independently? Why are courts taking so long to hear cases? And should children as young as 10 be held criminally responsible for their actions?

In this episode Alma-Constance and Lucinda speak to Sir Robert Buckland KC, former Lord Chancellor, Justice Secretary, Solicitor General and criminal barrister, about one of the oldest and most important roles in the British constitution.

They discuss

·       why laws often take years to pass through Parliament

·       he believes trial by jury should be protected

·       how artificial intelligence could help reduce court delays

·       why laws often take a long time to pass through Parliament

The conversation also explores issues affecting young people, 

·       including the age of criminal responsibility

·       modern slavery involving children  

·       Votes at 16 and understanding democracy

·       Smartphones, smoking and new laws

Sir Robert shares memories of his own childhood, discusses his new podcast Hidden Wiring, and offers inspiring advice for anyone interested in a career in law.

Kids Law is a fascinating introduction to law, politics and justice for young people, families and teachers alike.

Resources

Robert Buckland - Wikipedia

Robert Buckland website

Instagram

The Church Commissioners

Office of the Lord Chancellor

Age of Criminal Responsibility E&W CPS

Voting age of 16 House of Commons Library 

If you've got any questions, ideas about a topic or someone to interview, get in touch, we'd love to hear from you!! You can email us at kidslaw@spark21.org, contact us through the website: www.kidslaw.info  or through social media: Facebook, X and Instagram @KidsLawInfo 

Please subscribe, rate, and share the podcast with your friends. 
See you soon in the next episode!

Transcript

Hi, I'm Alma Constance. And I'm Lucinda. And we're here on the Kids Law Podcast to talk about how law affects all of us, especially kids and young people as we grow up. Did you know that children as young as 10 can actually be held responsible for crimes and might even have to go to court?

Plus, kids have special rights given by the United Nations. So that's why it's super important for young people to know a bit about the law and how it can help protect them and others. So what are we gonna talk about in this episode, Alma Constance? Well, we've heard of judges hearing cases in court and about MPs who make the laws in Parliament.

But who runs the legal system behind them? And where does the Lord Chancellor fit in? Well, the Lord Chancellor doesn't run the courts day-to-day. [00:01:00] That's the job of the judiciary, led by the Lord or Lady Chief Justice. But they are responsible for the system that supports them and for protecting its independence.

 The Lord Chancellor is one of the oldest roles in the country. It goes back over 1,000 years to when it was the monarch's top legal advisor. Back then, one person had huge power. They were part judge, part politician, and even part of parliament. But today, things are very different. After major reforms in 2005, the role was changed to separate those powers.

Now, the Lord Chancellor is a senior government minister, the Secretary of State for Justice, responsible for courts, prisons, and legal aid. But here's the interesting part. They're still expected to protect the independence of the courts even though they're a politician. So they sit right at the point where law and politics meet, and sometimes clash.

So let's find out more.

So we're really pleased to be joined by Sir Robert Buckland KC, former Lord Chancellor and [00:02:00] Solicitor General. Thank you so much, Robert, for being here today. Just to start off, could you explain what the Lord Chancellor does?

 Well, thank you for having me, and it's very good to talk about a role that is very historic, as we've just heard, and which was filled by famous people like Thomas Becket, who later of course was Archbishop of Canterbury and fell victim to Henry II, Cardinal Wolsey, we'll remember from our studies of Henry VIII, and Sir Thomas More, very famous figure. And I was Lord Chancellor for about two and a half years about six years ago. By the time I'd taken the role, the changes that, Lucinda mentioned had taken place. Now, the role's still a very important and senior one in government, but it's a bit of a different one from some of the other cabinet ministers because not only are you running a department, the Justice Department, you're also responsible for protecting the rule of law and the interests of the judiciary. Being their spokesperson, being their representative in the cabinet, and making sure that their [00:03:00]independence is respected at all times and preserved. And that really is the mix of, roles that the Lord Chancellor has to undertake today.

So from your long experience working in government, do you think the role works well today, or does it need reform? And if so, what would you change?

Well, I think the role works pretty well, but if I'm honest with you, I think it should be reformed. I was never fully happy with the changes that were made back in 2005 because I thought that something was lost in the role of the Lord Chancellor straddling both worlds, the worlds of law and the worlds of politics.

Now, that's not to undermine the independence of our judges. That's a vital part of our system, but I think the Lord Chancellor is there as a person who needs to be of that world and very much part of it. who understands the judiciary, might even have been a judge themselves like I was part-time, and can then more effectively and strongly represent the interests of the judiciary [00:04:00] where ministers or others in government might say and do things that can undermine or question the independence of judges and their important role in our society.

So what do you think are the biggest challenges facing the courts and prisons at the moment? uh, I think the challenges are immense. I think there's been a long-term issue about funding, uh, long before my time. I think that funding for the system has not been where it should be. And then, of course, we had the COVID crisis, which really put huge pressure, particularly on the Crown Court, the criminal court hears the most serious criminal cases, resulting in a backlog of cases taking a long time to be resolved.

Now, that's still a problem today. The government and the judges are having to wrestle with huge caseloads, and, that, I think, is a legacy of the COVID crisis, when, of course, we had to stop using the courts and juries for a while because of the dangers of infection. And then on [00:05:00] the prison side of it, the number of people in our prisons has continued to grow. Sentences have increased in length. More people are being detained, because they would be dangerous sexual or violent offenders.

But that puts huge pressure on a system. old Victorian prisons, which are difficult to run. And then, of course, we have the probation system as well, which,, is, struggling to cope with the number of people that it deals with in the community. So overall, it's a system that's under huge pressure.

It's one that in very great measure is working, but which I think could do even better with more support from, those parts of government that fund the, courts and prisons.

 You've spoken openly before about defending trial by jury, and I think our audience will be very interested in that yes.

My background before I became a politician was as a criminal barrister. I spent, , every day of my working life for nearly 20 years in the Crown Court, dealing with juries, prosecuting or defending criminal cases, and talking to [00:06:00] juries.

 Uh, 12 members of the public, not lawyers, who are randomly selected from \ the electoral roll, who come to serve for about, usually about a fortnight or so of their lives, and who sit on some of the most serious cases that you can imagine. And I think the system works really well. And I think it's wrong that we should be seeking to restrict the trial by jury

 I don't think it's the right answer to dealing with those waiting lists

 because we've had juries for a long time in our system without waiting lists.

And I think the real cause for the delay is

that nowadays there's so much digital or smartphone evidence in every case, that it takes ages to analyze and go through it all in a way that just wouldn't have happened before we invented the smartphone. And, and I think the explosion in digital evidence has really, caused the problems that we see now, not juries.

So I'm very opposed to the government's proposals to restrict jury trial, and I very much hope that they don't pass through Parliament in their current form, and they Are changed

 I have never heard that point made before about digital evidence. I don't know how one could, address that, actually.

Well, I think there are answers. I think it's technology. And in my submissions made to a big review that was conducted by a man called Sir Brian Leveson, a former senior judge, Let's start using AI more effectively to analyze and go through this evidence, and to sift what is relevant from what is irrelevant. Now, this can be done. We've got these tools already, to some degree they've been used in cases. And I think we should be automating the administrative processes within the court, that is all the nuts and bolts processes that make trials happen, so that, , the civil service who run the courts aren't under so much pressure.

 So I think through technology we can make the courts run faster and smarter , and I don't see nearly enough emphasis placed upon that at the moment.

So we have heard in other episodes that laws can take a very long time Is there any piece of legislation you  worked on that was particularly difficult or controversial? Oh, there are many, many bills and acts of Parliament that I worked upon and I conducted a lot of bills through the House of Commons, either dealing with them in the committees that exist to scrutinize bills or leading debates, in the House of Commons, And I think probably the most controversial and difficult bill I ever did was the EU Withdrawal Bill, which of course was the law that was needed in order to bring Brexit into force as a matter of our domestic legislation.

 And I spent many a day and sometimes many a night debating and negotiating with colleagues. Having to drive deals and bargains with MPs in order to get, , votes won and the law through. And we managed to get it through in the end, but it took a devil of a long time. Too quick a bill is often a very bad piece of law because it hasn't had the necessary examination either by the House of Commons or actually, more relevantly, the House of Lords, which in the modern era is the [00:09:00] chamber that does the most scrutiny and revision of law. The Lords,, really can get under the bonnet of a piece of legislation and I think it's an invaluable part of the system. I think it does make for better law, and we've seen some examples of that happening recently. the bill that was brought in to legalize assisted dying, went through the House of Commons fairly swiftly, frankly, without that much scrutiny. It was very different in the Lords. And whatever one's view about the issue, and I'll put that to one side for a moment, I think the Lords did its job in scrutinising the bill. Now, there's some people who supported the bill who didn't like what the Lords did, but I profoundly disagree. I think they were doing their job, and they did their job well. 

 Looking forward, there's a lot of legal questions that also affect young people directly, for example, the age of criminal responsibility. we  know from a previous episode, this has been raised in Scotland to 12, but it's still 10 in England and Northern Ireland.  So at what age do you think  children should be responsible for crimes? 

Well, look, I've thought about this long and hard, and I, I think it's very difficult to set an age because children mature at different stages. I'm not in favor of raising the age of criminal responsibility. I think that, a lot of us will know by the time that we are 10 that what we are doing is either okay or what we might be doing is wrong I don't see the merit in raising the age of responsibility., I used to do a lot of debates about, that time in your life when you're 16 or 17 or 18, when the law will often intervene to protect children right up to the age of 18. But then in other respects, at the age of 16 you're able to join the army, you're able to, very soon, to vote.

And until recently, you were able to get married with the consent of your parents. One of the changes I, was very committed to seeing happen when I was Lord Chancellor was actually to raise the age of marriage to 18 to particularly protect some vulnerable women and young women in particular, whose [00:11:00] parents were consenting to forced marriages.

 And,, I think it shows how difficult it is sometimes to really judge where the age, , limit should be because of the varying rate which we grow up, we mature, uh, and become adults.

You'll know from your own experience. You'll have friends who seem much older and more mature, despite their age, and some who seem a lot younger and more vulnerable, and that's really to do with, the characteristics of the person and also the way in which they're brought up.

 So I think that, it's misleading, I think, to just focus on an arbitrary age or an arbitrary cutoff. I think it's far better when you're prosecuting or looking at a case to really assess the person that you're looking at and ask yourself whether prosecution is necessary. And I'll give you an example.

 Modern-day slavery has been a real curse for a long, long time, and it's hidden in plain view. And some of the victims of modern-day slavery will often be very young teenagers, and they'll be sent on trains all round the country carrying drugs, acting as [00:12:00] mules, being exploited because of their vulnerability.

Now, I think increasingly the police and the prosecuting authorities don't treat them as criminals but treat them as victims and very often- When that is done, those young people with support and protection and encouragement can then give invaluable evidence and information about the people who are controlling and operating them in order to get the real villains, the exploiters i-into court.

And there's an example, I think, of how, practice has evolved to reflect the reality of life if you're an exploited young person being, forced to do criminal acts against your real free will.

So you also talked about 16 and 17-year-olds and the lowering  of the voting age. What do you think will help young people understand politics and the law so that they can feel they are making an informed decision?

Well, I think it's really important that we have podcasts and programs like [00:13:00] this to help inform children and young people. And I think that,, the curriculum, which does have provision for, this type of education should again be refocused sharpened to make sure that by the time young people are getting to 16, they're really aware of the choices before them and what the vote actually means.

I mean, it's going to happen, but I want to make sure that young people, are confident that they can use their vote, they know what their choices are, and they're making an informed decision. I've always been a bit more skeptical about lowering the voting age, if I'm honest with you.

 And certainly when I used to do lots of debates in the schools in my former constituency, children and young people were sort of very much divided down the middle themselves about whether they wanted the right to vote. But now that it's coming, I think that we need to make sure that our 16 and 17-year-olds are as well-equipped as possible to play an active part in the democratic process and to have their say.

So,Sir Robert, you've had a long career in law and politics, but it hasn't stopped since you left Parliament, so do you miss being an MP and working in government?

Well, I miss not having the opportunity to go to the House of Commons and to ask questions and to lead debates on issues that mattered to me, and indeed, to my former constituents. Being in government was a privilege. I felt that every day mattered, and it was an honor to do it, and it was a real sense of public service that drove me on. And, I feel that, I achieved much in my time as a minister, nearly seven and a half years, and I made changes to the law that I think are benefiting people now. So I'm very proud of my record, uh, whether it's divorce law reform, whether it's in a domestic situation. Whether it was modernizing the law of child cruelty to make sure that the psychiatric effects of child cruelty were fully reflected by the law. All those changes were ones in which I had a hand in, . I'm very proud of that.

That leads me on to my other question. Would you tell us a bit more about your new podcast?

Yes it's called Hidden Wiring, and it's all about the [00:15:00] parts of our system of government that most people never see. How does it all work? How do ministers and civil servants work with each other?

 How is Whitehall wired? You know, Whitehall is the short term for the British government. And together with a, a senior former civil servant, Alan Evans, we are exploring and, uh, breaking open some of those, secrets. And, we've just recorded our first pilot. It's all about COBRA, which is a term that we hear when the government's in crisis what actually is COBRA? Where is it, and what does it do? We'll be dealing with topical issues as well, but relating them back to some fundamental, explainers about the way that Whitehall and Westminster works. It's gonna be ideal for politics students, and indeed people at, GCSE and A level to really get under the bonnet and see how politics and government works. 

I think there's such an appetite for that and could you also just tell us what the Church Commissioners are?

Yes. Last year I became  what's known as the Third Church Estates Commissioner. Amongst 17 church commissioners who are responsible for the administration of one of the biggest charitable trusts in the country. To help support the Church of England in particularly those parts of the church that are perhaps struggling and need support . I have responsibility for cathedrals, for some of the great, buildings of the church, where bishops and,, other clergy might live, and then also being responsible for any changes to the way in which parishes are organized so it's a varied role. It's a part-time role, but it's one that I'm really enjoying, and it's allowing me to travel a-all over the country to visit some of the most incredible buildings in our land, namely the cathedrals of England.

So I wanted to hear your opinion. There was a smoking ban and the social media ban. really recently? 

Yes. . Okay. Well, we're dealing with the social media ban. It's very interesting that up until the last minute, the government, were against putting a new law in [00:17:00] to ban, smartphones in schools, and it was the House of Lords that pushed and pushed and pushed and persuaded the government to change their minds.

It's an example of how the House of Lords do their job well. . I think it's a good idea. I think smartphones are incredibly powerful pieces of kit. They distract all of us, me included, . I think that they get in the way of quiet study and concentration, and I think when you're growing up, I think, it's important to be in touch with your family, which is why, you know, more old-fashioned, phones are probably what you need. , So I'm in favor of that. . Um, on the smoking ban, I think the evidence is very clear that , if teenagers take up smoking, the dangers of addiction are much higher. So I can see the sense in raising the age of being able to legally buy cigarettes and other tobacco products. I personally would have raised the age to 21 and left it there, which is what's happening in the Irish Republic and in other parts of Europe. What we are now [00:18:00] doing, which is a rolling ban that means that everybody of all ages born after 2009 won't be able to lawfully buy any tobacco products, my worry is that I think it might create quite a big black market in the illegal sale of tobacco products. I don't think that's a very good thing. And there's another technical reason that I have a problem with it. Northern Ireland, which is still within EU law because of its complicated relationship with Southern Ireland, I think that the ban there is actually in conflict with EU law. So I think there's gonna be great uncertainty there.

 So we do have a question we ask all of our guests. What were you like when you were 10, and what did you imagine you'd go on to be as an adult? Well, when I was 10, I was really into reading. I remember that in my school I was reading all the books so quickly that they were running out, and my reading age was way beyond my chronological age. And therefore, I was getting more [00:19:00]interested in more complex fiction, history, geography, and would you believe church and cathedral architecture.

I was really understanding how cathedrals were built and when they were built, and looking at their design and working out when they were built from their designs. And I used to carry a little pocketbook around with me about cathedrals, uh, and travel around, with my parents to go and see them.

And it's funny, 50 years on, I'm now back at one of the first things I genuinely loved. Because I think I identified, more with places and buildings and things growing up than I perhaps did with other children very often. Which sounds a bit odd, but , it's absolutely true. And, I think at 10 I wanted to be an architect. That was what was driving me. I wanted to build things and design things and create something. Then a few years later, of course, it transmogrified into becoming a lawyer. Slightly different, but that architect, strain is still very much in me, [00:20:00] and has probably driven me to do this wonderful role with the Church of England that I'm now enjoying amongst my, , legal work and other duties.

 Well, thank you so much, Robert, for coming onto our podcast. Just a final question. What advice would you give to young people who want to understand the law or even work in it one day?  Well, I think that when you're old enough, go and see cases in court. , Go and, , hear how lawyers, deal with cases. If you can, go along with a lawyer and shadow them and see what they do.

 And understand that ultimately the law is about people and about the problems that we all get in our lives, and finding solutions to those problems.

And it's not always about having your day in court or making a big speech in front of the jury. Very often it's about having a negotiation with the other side and getting an agreement that actually serves the interests of your client.

And it's the solving of problems that I think is the most [00:21:00] important part of being a professional lawyer. I always found that more interesting, frankly, than the study of academic law, though nowadays I'm a visiting professor at the London School of Economics law school, and just finished two years as a visiting fellow at Harvard.

So I've become a little more academic as I've got older, I like , the opportunity it gives you to have the space and time to think bigger. So in particular, I've been doing a lot of work into the impact of AI on the ethics of justice.

 You know, as we bring in automated processes, and earlier in the podcast I talked with enthusiasm about that, there are dangers if you bring in, uh, AI products and, processes that don't take into account the ethics o- of decision-making in the law and how the humanity of judgments and judicial decision-making has to be preserved.

 And I think that there are ways in which we can ensure that, but we have to be very clear from the outset about how we do that. I think we should be setting out principles for  safe use. I think we should be monitoring them regularly,

 we need to be constantly checking to make sure that the machines are doing what they should be doing and not actually creating more injustice, uh, because we, we've taken our eye off the ball. Amazing. Thank you so much. It's lovely to meet you both online. Thank you. And thank you again for inviting me. - we'll look out for your podcast.

Yeah. Oh, please do. Keep in touch.  . See you guys. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Well, Alma, what do you think about what Robert told us? So I thought that it's really interesting Robert is such a defender of the jury system, and he strongly believes it's the prevalence of digital evidence that slows cases down, not the jury itself.

He also says that he thinks the use of AI could address this and help pick out the most relevant information for a case analysis. Robert also believes that the House of Lords is vital to the scrutinization of legislation and plays an important role in making decisions about law, as well as the House of Commons.

And he added that he does not think the age of criminal responsibility should be raised but agrees that many young people are victims of exploitation and are not always criminals themselves.

It was interesting to hear that he has started a podcast himself called Hidden Wiring,  particularly as he feels that it's, important for everyone to understand more about these issues In our podcasts, we've been exploring how laws work and affect young people.  We hope that they will help you understand how laws are made and how the legal justice system works, and that this knowledge will help you make informed decisions,  not only in your life, but also when you're able to vote for an MP  who will represent you in Parliament and make the laws.

 It's also really important that children know they should be kept safe,  and that adults must care for them.  Remember, if you have any worries,  talk to an adult you trust and tell them how you feel.  This includes your teachers at school who're there to look after you too.  So tell them that you need to talk to them.

You can call Childline  on 0800-1111 if you're under 18 and want free confidential advice, you can also find more information on Kids law.info website. Keep your questions coming in. Please subscribe, rate and share the podcast with your friends.

See you soon in the next episodes. 

Bye. Bye.

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