Connections pt 2 Stressed states
Colleen Jorgensen 0:04
So let me start by saying that I think the sympathetic nervous system response has gotten a bit of a bad wrap in the last decade or so, I think there's a bit of a misconception that if you're in your stress response that's a horrible thing, and you need to only do parasympathetic work and always be calm, and that's not quite right, we want to have a range of responses, so that we appropriately respond to what's happening in life and sometimes life requires a little bit of sympathetic activation.
Ericka Thomas 0:29
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Welcome back to The Work IN everyone. I'm your host, Ericka Thomas, and we are in our connection series with my guest Colleen Jorgensen talking about how the nervous system connects to really every system in the body, Colleen is an osteopath, and a pain care specialist, as well as a therapeutic Pilates yoga and cymatics teacher with years of experience, and a brilliant, compassionate heart centered approach to pain care. Last time we talked about some of those chronic pain connections to the nervous system and how that keeps the body stuck in high alert. Today we are going to pick up our discussion with the tiered response that the body goes through to respond to all kinds of threat, no matter what those threats are. We're going to go beyond fight or flight and how to get back to our natural responses. And today, Colleen is going to share some practical exercises that you can do anywhere to help to trigger a reset of those natural responses. So, I'm really looking forward to this. Let's get started. Here we go with the work in. Enjoy.
Okay, so let's get back to this tiered response in the nervous system.
Colleen Jorgensen 2:59
Perfect. so it works on a bit of a hierarchy. So, when we are faced with a threat which we always are, life is filled with threats of all shapes and sizes. And so it's great that we've got these systems built in to deal with that but this is the order that it will try to handle a stress situation.
So the first thing that we'll go to is our newest branch that is the ventral vagal. That's the social engagement system. So you're faced with a threat, and your body wants to go into that sympathetic fight or flight response but it's first going to say well can I negotiate my way out of this. So it's going to try to connect, either with the other person or the situation. Through the Eyes through the voice through trying to cooperate with each other. Because, communicating and cooperating is something that has again allowed our species to survive and to thrive. It doesn't only help with your survival as an individual, it helps with communal survival so we will first attempt that social engagement system.
Let's say that that does not work, and the threat is still present. So now we go into that sympathetic activation, which is our fight or flight response. So it's just as it sounds, our body physiologically prepares itself to either stand there and fight, or to run away and flee the situation. So when we drop into that sympathetic activation, we're a little bit less rational. It's not so much, our conscious choice is kind of left by the wayside. And we're, we're going more through instinct and defensive responses.
Okay, so we're not always in our most rational brain in that moment, and then we let you...
Ericka Thomas 4:44
I’m just laughing because you're so kind. When you say a little less rational.
Ericka Thomas 4:54
But it's okay, right. We've all been there.
Unknown Speaker 4:59
We've all been there.
Colleen Jorgensen 5:02
And then, so let's say in the worst case scenario where you're in a situation where you know what, you can't fight, there's not a possibility for you to fight your way out of this situation. And there's not a possibility for you to run away from this situation you are stuck there and you're perhaps physically overpowered let's say.
Well then we have the dorsal vagal system that we’ll drop into, and it's almost like putting a hard break on that sympathetic nervous system. And so we end up in this state of collapse, which for some people can result in actual fainting. And if we think of the animal kingdom again, we can understand why, if you are being chased by a lion. As an Impala as an example. And you, you're so you're running away But at a certain point you realize he's gonna overtake me there's no way that I can get away from him and of course I cannot fight the lion.
They will go into this dorsal vagal state response or freeze response so that it, their physiology slows down so much that it looks like they're dead. And the hope is that the lion is going to lose interest and walk away. In which case, they'll now come back to that sympathetic response to now run away.
so we have that same ability to drop into that dorsal vagal response. All of these are good responses to have. It's good that we have these choices. Where it becomes problematic, is if we stay stuck in one of those responses. So what should happen is we use the appropriate response when the stress is there. And then once the stress goes away. We recover. So I just want to also point out Ericka that those are the three main circuits, but we actually have two hybrid states that Steven Porges talks about as well. And these are really important because these are kind of where I guess where we want to live. Really.
So what I mean by that is that. So let me start by saying that I think the sympathetic nervous system response has gotten a bit of a bad rap in the last decade or so, I think there's a bit of a misconception that if you're in your stress response, that's a horrible thing, and you need to only do parasympathetic work and always be calm, and that's not quite right. We want to have a range of responses, so that we appropriately respond to what's happening in life and sometimes life requires a little bit of sympathetic activation.
So, two hybrid states are where we combine the social engagement system. So let's say the social engagement system with that sympathetic activation. So that would allow us to do things like play competitive sports, it's allowing me and you to converse right now you know if I was too much in my parasympathetic state, I wouldn't be awake and alert enough to, to share the information that I want to share with your listeners so I'm using my sympathetic system to be engaging I hope with you guys.
But I'm using it in a context of safety. I'm not in my sympathetic activation right now out of fear, quite the opposite. I'm in it. At the same time I'm socially engaging with you, I can see your eyes, and I can see your smile and I can hear your voice so I'm in this context of safety, that allows me to mobilize in a very functional way. So we need that hybrid of social engagement and mobilization outside of fear to play and to be competitive. And to have the drive to get up and go in our day to day.
And then we have the other hybrid state where again we rely on that social engagement system, but in combination with the dorsal vagal. So now instead of that dorsal vagal being a freeze shutdown or collapse state. This is where it allows us to be calm and peaceful. But while we feel safe. So things like Shavasana in a yoga class or meditation or doing soft quiet breath work or be intimate with a partner. The ability to cuddle with someone, it's because you trust them enough through your social engagement system that you allow yourself to drop into that parasympathetic aspect of your dorsal vagal circuit, without going into collapse because there's no fear, you feel safe,
Ericka Thomas 9:25
I want to talk a little bit more about the dorsal vagal response though the freeze response because I think that for many people, they understand the idea in an animal, where they freeze and collapse, out of fear. But in a human, it doesn't always look like that in the environment. we can be in that dorsal vagal freeze state, in a high functioning freeze state where you can still, you can still go to work, you can still show up in your job and in your relationship without any kind of connection. And I just wanted to get your opinion on that, especially because what we're talking about here with people, whether they're coming from a place of chronic pain or a place of chronic stress from whatever source, whether that's trauma, acute trauma or long term ongoing trauma or PTSD or something like that, we can get stuck in that elevated state, and to other people, it can just look like you know we're, we're just we're just there. We're just there without that affect and sometimes people who are in that state maybe don't have a lot of facial expression. They'll, they do what they need to do, but they don't really care.They'll even say that like I don't, I don't care. You decide, whatever, you just do it.
Colleen Jorgensen 11:03
That's a very good example. Yeah, I’ll go into some of the presentations of the dorsal vagal state. So, precisely like you say, when they're when you're stuck in that dorsal vagal state you're not able to activate that social engagement system so it's exactly as you described. It's those people who, there's no sparkle in the eye, they might be telling a story that has a lot of different emotion in the story and yet none of that emotion is reflected in their face, there's no change of expression there it just stays kind of flat.
Even the voice, instead of being melodic and going up and down in their tone again remains quite flat. Physiologically inside of their bodies, it feels like a collapse. Their bodies can feel very heavy. So it's hard to just get up and go. It almost would feel like you're walking through quicksand like you're being dragged down into the earth as you tried to go about your day.
The tone of the muscles in someone who's stuck in that dorsal vagal, there's a lack of tone. Because when we're in the dorsal vagal. The blood supply is getting taken away from the periphery, because we don't need to stand there and fight or to run away at this moment. So, the blood is not going to those major muscles that would fight or run away for you. And so it and it all goes towards the center.
So they tend to have a lack of tone in their muscles, sometimes there can be cold and clammy hands precisely because the blood is being taken in towards the center and not not out to the extremities. The blood pressure drops quite low. Because again that the system doesn't need you to push the blood to the extremities. So the blood pressure drops very low and to some people that can result in dizziness or even fainting for some.
Ericka Thomas 13:05
We're talking a little bit here about how the body communicates with the mind, and that connection back and forth. Would you also say that in that state that there can be, there can be areas of the body that we just cannot feel any more accurately.
Colleen Jorgensen 13:22
Oh, yes. Thank you. Yes, so it's actually something that I learned only just recently from Dr Arielle Schwartz, who's a fabulous resource for polyvagal, all things polyvagal if you are interested.
So, there is a relief of endogenous opioids in the system. When we are stuck in that dorsal vagal state so that creates a literal numbing. And that's I guess a survival instinct that when something is too hard to handle your physiology, gives you that numbing so that you disconnect you dissociate your Soma from your physical body from what's causing you that pain, so that you can survive the moment. So, for people who are living in chronic pain if you can imagine what it would be like to never ever ever get a break from that physical sensation of pain how exhausting that can be so you can understand where sometimes the system might kick in and say you know what, I'm gonna let you have a break from thi. I'm going to numb that out a little bit so that you can focus on something else for a little bit.
And I think the important thing, Ericka for people to understand is, these are not conscious choices that you're making. So a lot of people might judge themselves for, I'm using words that they've shared. These are not my words to describe them. That they feel lazy or they feel like, why can't I just get up and do it.
It's not your conscious system that is not making the choice to get up and do it, your physiology has learned to protect you, that is keeping you in that state. So, if, if people listening get no other message I hope they get the message to meet yourself with kindness and compassion, because these are subconscious responses that are happening outside of your awareness.
Now the good news is, and that we'll talk about that in a moment is, you can start to bring in your conscious awareness to start to pull yourself out of those states, but your system is doing that for you at an unconscious level to protect you. You're not making that choice, so free yourself from any judgment and guilt and meet it with kindness and compassion,
Ericka Thomas 15:41
Beautiful.I know that anything can be threatening to any person, even if it doesn't look that way from outside. But what does that mean to the body, what counts as a threat to the body when we're talking about pain and stress on the nervous system,
Colleen Jorgensen 15:58
So I agree with you. To me, a threat in the body is anything that your physiology, your nervous system perceives as unsafe. And the key is what you said is that what is unsafe to one is not the same as what's unsafe to another. And I have an example
I have a niece who's now 21, and she was adopted from China at 10 months of age. And while she was in the orphanage. They were tucked, so they were lying on their backs and tucked in so tightly with their blankets that they couldn't move so you know it would be somewhat like being in a straitjacket. And she was like that for the first 10 months of her life. So now, if you go to put a blanket on her. Her system responds with a stress response. Even though consciously, she doesn't have a fear of blankets. She knows that a blanket is not going to hurt her. But at that preconscious level her system reacts.
Whereas, you know I see her every now and then, not often for treatment as an osteopath in my clinic and most of my clients I would say 99% of my clients, they love it when I put the blanket on. It's a feeling of safety and comfort for them. And sometimes I forget and I go to put the blanket on my niece and I see that look in her eyes that moment of panic, even though consciously she's able to recognize it's not as a threat. Those memories are so deeply ingrained and those responses are so deeply ingrained that we need to be first of all aware of them to be able to then offer the system a different choice,
That is a really interesting story. Yeah, when she arrived from China, she was 10 months of age, and it was winter here. So, we greeted them at the airport and my sister had asked me to bring a blanket. And when I went to put a blanket on her, her eyes just filled with panic and we didn't know at the time why that was. We figured it out later. And it took months that every time she saw me, she would open the door full of smiles she was a very happy baby. And when she saw me, she would get that panic, and I didn't even have a blanket in my hand anymore but now she was associating me with a blanket. And I would have to re earn her trust every single time and it took months before she would open that door and just keep her smile when she saw me again, which is fascinating.
Ericka Thomas 18:26
And it's, it's so interesting that her stress response was so tied to that physicality. From that experience. Did she remember that when, when she was older, that experience of being wrapped so tightly, or was this something...
Colleen Jorgensen 18:46
It's a great question. I would have to check in with them. I have a feeling it was more in the parents discussing you know how they found the kids in the orphanage.But that's a great question I'd have to ask,
Ericka Thomas 18:56
because sometimes we have conscious memories of traumatic events, and sometimes we don't, but the body does. is still remembering something. And so, this is, I was just curious if there was a conscious memory of that for her, or if it's something that they figured out later.
Colleen Jorgensen 19:16
Yeah, it's a great point that you make, because the body doesn't discriminate right whether it's a conscious memory or an unconscious memory. The nervous system reaction is going to be the same, except that you just might be very puzzled if it's an unconscious memory.
And it just brings us back for a moment to those in chronic pain. They might not have a specific instance of trauma like that. But, you know, let's say for example, every time you go to put your shoes on that triggers your pain to spike a little bit. Well it's not surprising that over time your nervous system is going to start to see that as Oh, this is something I need to protect her from. And so then over time, it actually becomes harder and harder for you to put those shoes on because your system becomes more and more hyper vigilant, more and more over protective.
But again, The great news is that we can work with that. We can work with that through neuroception, to try to change the story, change the reaction and give it a different option.
Ericka Thomas 20:14
That's a perfect segue. Let's go into and talk about some of the ways that we can start replacing
those responses,or help to replace those responses in the nervous system. So what are some of those practices,
Colleen Jorgensen 20:29
would you mind actually that's perfect. Ericka, can we do a little practice together as a way to segue into talking about it since we've been talking quite a bit?
Ericka Thomas 20:36
Yeah. Okay,
Colleen Jorgensen 20:38
Okay,so we're going to, so the first part of the answer is that we always want to try to tap into that social engagement system so we're going to do that through a very simple exercise that you can do anywhere.
So you can be seated or standing or lying down so wherever you are, you just get comfortable interlace the fingers and bring the hands to the back of the neck so that you're in the arched part of the neck. And then slide the hands up the base of the skull until you land right under that ridge you know we sort of have that ridge at the base of the skull so that you're snugly in there with the hands and take a moment to allow the head to be fully supported like your hands are a hammock. And you're letting the weight of the head fall back into the hands. Use the hands, then to provide a tiny little bit of traction towards the sky or towards the crown of your head, depending on what position you're in, so that you're just creating a little bit more space between the base of the skull and your neck and I'll explain why after we're done.
And then keeping that slight traction the whole time and keeping the head, leaning into the weight of the hands. With the eyes only, you're going to look towards the right shoulder, and you can do that, eyes open or closed, totally up to you. And you're going to just keep your gaze towards that right outside shoulder. I meant elbow, Sorry about that. Keep the eyes looking towards the right. And as you hold here you might find that you spontaneously yawn, swallow or sigh. If those things don't happen that's also fine but if those things do happen, don't be surprised that's a sign that you're tapping into that ventral vagal circuit. We'll stay here for one more full breath in and out. And then allow the eyes to come back to center.
Let the hands rest by your side for a moment. And it seems that it is such a simple, easy practice, but it's working at a very deep level so if you're experiencing any nausea or dizziness that is perfectly normal. So just take a moment here in the center. Eyes open to sort of recalibrate to the outside, outside of your body for a moment, ground into your feet, and just give your system a moment to sort of marinate what you just did. To sort of integrate what you just did. And even when you feel ready we'll do the same thing on the other side.
So interlace the fingers. Start with the hands in the crook of the neck, and then slide the hands up to land under that ridge at the base of the skull. Take a moment to really allow the head to fall into the support of the hands like you're leaning in a hammock. And then give yourself just a slight traction so that you're elongating that space at the base of the skull. And this time, take your eyes to your left elbow. Eyes open or closed, it's always your choice, whichever one feels better in your system today in this moment.
And it's fine if you feel a bit of effort in the eyes to look to the side, but you don't want it to be a strain So figure out how far to look left so that sure there might be a bit of effort but there isn't a strain. Again, you might notice that you spontaneously yawn. Swallow or sigh. Those are all signs that you've engaged that social engagement system. It does not mean that you haven't engaged it if those don't happen, it's just one of the outward signs that you can get. And then slowly let the eyes Come back to center. Allow the arms to fall down by your side.
And again before you move on to a new position, give yourself a moment in the center grounding into the feet eyes open. If there's dizziness or nausea, it's an extremely common reaction to these simple exercises. And it's not detrimental, it's just that you've tapped into that ventral vagal system. I should mention that this is an exercise called the basic exercise from, Oh my goodness. His name just flooded my head. Stanley Rosenberg's book, The Healing Power of the Vagus Nerve, it's a good one if you're looking to learn a little bit more.
Ericka Thomas 25:08
It sounded familiar and so I was curious actually as I went through that with you. Is there a reason that the hands have to be behind the head or could someone use a foam roller instead if they were lying on their back if maybe the range of motion in their shoulders wasn't as available to them?
Colleen Jorgensen 25:32
Great question. Thank you for asking that so you can absolutely do it with no hands at all and just have the arms down by the side, you can absolutely do as you say and use some sort of a prop to get that little bit of length in the head, or you can just actively create that length by slightly bringing the chin back and slightly lifting the base of the skull.
The reason why we want to get that space at the base of the skull pardon me, is. So we talked about how the vagus nerve comes from the brain itself and comes from the lower brain the brainstem. And then it exits the skull and exits the skull through what's called the jugular foramen, which is just behind the ear. Now it exits through that hole with four or three other structures. So we've got the vagus nerve, the jugular vein, the glossopharyngeal nerve that goes to the tongue, and the throat and the accessory nerve that goes to the upper traps.
So all we're trying to do by creating a little bit of extra space there is increase the circulation to all of those structures, so that we're getting as much information to that vagus nerve as we can. So that can be achieved in any way it does not necessarily have to be with the hands in that position I'm glad you asked that.
Ericka Thomas 26:49
Yeah, that was interesting because I've done that exercise before, and I do often feel not necessarily a full yawn but a little bit of a yawn intention. Yes, yes. back where the jaw comes into the ear, so it's perfect. It's fascinating. There is also for me, some sensation of little bits of tremor response and I often feel during my trauma release practice a lot of tremoring through my face and jaw just from, I have a lot of physical trauma that was around my jaw and neck. And so that's a lot of times where that comes in. But that is such a simple exercise. And when we, when people practice that, what kind of result would that bring to them once they activate that social engagement?
Colleen Jorgensen 27:52
It's different for everyone and that's an important thing to note we all respond differently. And you can respond differently in one moment on one day than you do in a different moment on the very same day. So for a lot of people, it will have a calming effect quite quickly. So it can be great if you're feeling that you're in that sympathetic activation and you're kind of wired and you want to come down a little bit. It's a quick reset.
However, what if you still have to perform at your job that day and it's made you so calm that you feel like you want to go to sleep, which can happen. So if that's the case, then I will give you another physical practice to stimulate the sympathetic aspect a little bit, because it's all it's all balance, right.
So if you were very much sympathetic and you do this one. It usually creates that nice balance. If you were already feeling quite calm and soothed and peaceful, it might make you a little too sleepy to then be engaged. So it depends what you're having to do that day. Very common reactions as we talked about are the dizziness and the nausea, and that is not something to be afraid of. It's not harmful. It is because you have communicated with that vagus nerve so it means you've, you've done a good job. But it can be disconcerting for a moment if you haven't felt that before. So just always give yourself that time to recalibrate in the center. Focusing outwards you know on something that's outside of you something in your room or looking out a window grounding into the earth, those things can just help to recalibrate a little bit quicker. Does that answer your question?
Ericka Thomas 29:29
Yes absolutely yes so let's talk about that sympathetic, how to get into that sympathetic system.
Colleen Jorgensen 29:36
perfect so is it okay if we do another short little practice to do that?
Ericka Thomas 29:40
Yeah,I think people would love it.
Colleen Jorgensen 29:41
Okay, great. So, I know that everybody's going to be in different places so if you're comfortable to go into a full on down dog, go ahead and get into that position. If you are not comfortable, you can do a simulated down dog with your hands on your kitchen counter or your hands on the arm of a couch or on a chair.
So get into that upside down V shape. Okay. But then we're going to modify it a little bit while we're there. We're going to make it a little more active, a little more ready for interaction and movement. So you're going to lift the heels, so that you're only on tippy toe. You're gonna squat down quite a bit so that if there was something in front of you that you wanted to get to you'd be able to spring off your toes and spring through your legs to propel yourself forward.
So you can even bounce a little bit right now as you're trying to figure that out to see where's that sweet spot of how much bend in the hips and knees. I want to have so that if I wanted to spring off my toes and propel myself forward I could. So you're going to stay in that sweet spot, you're going to bring your gaze forward of you. So rather than looking down at the floor, or at your legs you're actually going to bring your head up a little bit.
And imagine you're a lion in the wild and you're looking at your prey you're looking at something that you want to go after so you've got that focused gaze.You've got that ready to spring into action feeling in your feet and your calves and in your thighs. And then if you'd like, you can even do like a lion's breath where you allow the tongue to really come out and take a nice inhale and as you exhale, you can even make a sound. It can be a growl or it can be something that is something guttural that makes you say I'm ready to go and get that thing.
Okay. And you're going to stay here for another two to three breaths. And instead of making them long and slow and smooth breath. Let them be activating a little bit. Use those breaths. Imagine you were about to leap forward. What kind of breath would help you to do that in this moment. And it's perfectly fine and actually wonderful to instead of being still in this position, go ahead and move forward and back to the toes, knees and hips, like you're propelling yourself forward and bring yourself back a few times. And then allow your weight to settle back towards your feet.
You can walk your hands to the feet and slowly work your way back up to standing, either by rolling through your spine or coming up with a flat back, whichever resonates with you. And whenever you've done any kind of practice this one was a little bit more stimulating so if you like that feeling, and you want to keep it. Great, then you don't have to do anything else. If you feel too activated, and you want to calm that down a little bit, then just spend the moment standing and grounding into your feet, and slow down your exhale ever so slightly make your exhales just a little bit longer than your inhales. That will help you to create a little bit more of that balance a little bit more of that ventral vagal response that complements the activation that you've just created in that sympathetic circuit,
Colleen Jorgensen 32:57
and then go ahead and get into whatever position is comfortable for you.
Ericka Thomas 33:01
Oh my goodness, that is, first of all, Lions breath is my favorite breathing technique, it is really, that's how I practice car yoga. So it's actually saved me many times in traffic jams. So, I always highly recommend that to anyone. Wherever you are, but that was, that's an interesting variation of downward dog and using basically a yoga pose, too, to come into that sympathetic response. And I'm curious about that connection.
Isn't that fantastic! Don't you love exercises that you can do absolutely, anywhere? I know I do. Thanks for joining me on The Work IN and be sure to tune in next week when we move into episode three of our interview with Colleen. And believe me, you are not going to want to miss it. But if you are looking for a little bit morefrom Colleen head over to her website, it's Colleenjorgensen.org and sign up for her free pain care ebook. It's a great resource. Be sure to check the show notes for all of the resources that Colleen shared today. I'll see you next time on The Work IN.
https://drarielleschwartz.com/
Accessing the Healing Power of the Vagus Nerve by Stanley Rosenburg
https://www.colleenjorgensen.org/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai