Industrialized Yoga: Exploring value with Rebecca Sebastian

Happy New year!
We're kicking off season 2  with a deep dive into the yoga side of the fitness industry to discuss all things value related.
The value of what you offer
The value of who you are as a human
The value of what you know as a certified instructor
How the business of yoga and fitness values all those things and so much more...

Rebecca Sebastian is a 20-year yoga teacher, 10-year yoga therapist, yoga studio owner, yoga non-profit founder, leader, and host of the new podcast Working In Yoga.  She is a woman on a mission to up level the business skills and savvy in the yoga industry so we can create the socially and morally ethical and nourishing businesses yoga professionals deserve.  

I can’t think of anyone better to talk about some of the value conflicts that we as fitness professionals face in the fitness industry as a whole and especially in the yoga space. Now If you’re not a fitness professional don’t x out just yet. Because believe it or not the instructor that you love, that’s up in front of your favorite class, that always shows up for you and rarely takes a day off,  they’re just like you and have most likely been right where you are at one point. They struggle with the same things you struggle with. So  whether you stand up front, back of the room or front row, we’re all either our own boss or we work for someone else and we are all students of life. I know you’ll find just as much value from the perspectives we’re sharing today..

https://www.sunlightyogacenter.com/

https://www.instagram.com/sunlight_yoga_center/

https://www.pinterest.com/sunlightyogaapothecary/_created/

https://www.sunlightyogacenter.com/working-in-yoga-podcast

As a part of my mission to bring a legacy of resilience through movement, each month you can join me for a hike on the bike trail followed by a free trauma informed vinyasa class back at the studio on Main Street. Go to savagegracecoaching.com to see the calendar and join my newsletter, Yoga Life on Main Street, to stay up to date on all the latest studio news, events and gossip. And now… on to this week’s episode.

It’s time to stop working out and start working IN. You found the Work IN podcast for fit-preneurs and their health conscious clients. This podcast is for resilient wellness professionals who want to expand their professional credibility, shake off stress and thrive in a burnout-proof career with conversations on the fitness industry, movement, nutrition, sleep, mindset, nervous system health, yoga, business and so much more.

I’m your host Ericka Thomas. I'm a resilience coach and fit-preneur offering an authentic, actionable realistic approach to personal and professional balance for coaches in any format.

The Work IN is brought to you by savage grace coaching, bringing resilience through movement, action and accountability. Private sessions, small groups and corporate presentations are open now. Visit savagegracecoaching.com to schedule a call and get all the details.

Website & free guide
Follow me on Instagram
Follow me on Facebook
Follow me on Linked IN

Transcript

Ericka Thomas  0:09  

Welcome back to The Work IN everyone. I'm Ericka and I have a very special guest with us today. Her name is Rebecca Sebastian, and she is a 20 year yoga teacher ten year yoga therapist, yoga studio owner, nonprofit founder, leader and host of the new podcast Working in Yoga. She's a woman on a mission to uplevel the business skills and savvy in the yoga industry. So we can create the socially and morally ethical and nourishing businesses yoga professionals deserve. 

I can't think of anyone better to talk about some of the value conflicts that we face as fitness professionals in the fitness industry as a whole and especially in the yoga space. Now if you're not a fitness professional, don't X out just yet. Because believe it or not the instructor that you love that's up in front of your class that always shows up for you and rarely takes a day off. They are just like you and have most likely been right where you are at one point. They struggle with the same things you struggle with. So whether you stand up front, back of the room or front row, we are all either our own boss or we work for someone else. And we're all students of life. And I know you'll find just as much value from the perspectives we're sharing today. So with that, let's start our work in with Rebecca Sebastian. Welcome, Rebecca.

Rebecca Sebastian  1:35  

Thank you for having me. Ericka. I'm so excited. We're gonna have a good conversation today.

Ericka Thomas  1:41  

Oh my gosh, you have great energy. I love it.

Rebecca Sebastian  1:45  

Listen, easily enthusiastic. Oh,

Ericka Thomas  1:47  

yes. For sure. Well, listen, I was I was creeping around your website and on your about page and I really didn't know that we have so much in common in our physical history coming into yoga. So I was hoping that you could just start off today, sharing a little bit more about yourself and your personal journey that brought you to yoga, and how that informs your mission today.

Rebecca Sebastian  2:18  

So yes, I started yoga from the injury perspective. A lot of people I know side into the yoga industry really because they wanted to work out or you know, get what people consider a yoga body something like that. I came because when I was born, actually I was born with hip dysplasia, which means that the ball of my femur was not properly aligned in the socket of my hip. And so as a baby, I was braced. Actually, like halfway up my body. I didn't crawl as a baby I just commando slid across the floor. And what often happens as a result of that having hip dysplasia as a baby, which happens primarily in women, is that it's kind of a recipe for a lifetime of chronic pain once you develop and when I was 19. I had a job as a professional fundraiser for a nonprofit. I sat in a car all day driving around Eastern Iowa and Western Illinois, and I had paid and a doctor told me at 19 Oh, you'll have your hip replaced before you're 40 Because that's what happens to women like you. And I cried Of course, like at 19 and no 19 year old wants to think about that. Right? And so, I somebody said try yoga, and I went to yoga to see if it would help with my hip pain. And weirdly enough I've never liked

Ericka Thomas  3:42  

Yeah, isn't that isn't that fascinating? I've never met anyone else that have the same thing happen. It's weird. Oh my gosh, we're soul sisters. We are seriously Wow. And it never occurred to me actually until just talking to you. Like I've never had a doctor speak to me about that in any way. Like this could be like the root cause of a lot of things that are going on with you. No one has ever like connected the dots. So it's interesting. It's just interesting with the messages that we happen upon. Right. So pain was that the catalyst for becoming an instructor then as well. What was that moment like for you?

Rebecca Sebastian  4:29  

So I am the most reluctant yoga teacher you ever would meet. I was practicing yoga for several years and a friend of mine wanted to start yoga classes at their theater so they have like an actual theater community theater they do kids theater classes, and he said to me, oh, I need you to teach this yoga class. They had had an instructor lined up. The instructor did very much what happened in the late 90s and early 2000s. They walked in the room said the energy of the space is not okay. And quit the class. I have emotions about that. Even now because I know that happens in our industry. So he was desperate right and texting me. He's like, Oh my God, my wife's good friend does yoga. I'll text her and see if she can do it. I said no. And so so he asked me again and I said I appreciate you saying that. That's really flattering. No. And finally he got his wife to call me and ask and she's a very good friend of mine still to this day. I love you Tina, and his wife just said it's for six weeks. This is all you have to do is teach this one class once a week for six weeks, and you're done. So I came in teaching the exact classes that I had been taking. And at the end of six weeks, everybody in the room wanted to stay nice. And somehow There you go. No, I ended up some of this other yoga stuff.

Ericka Thomas  5:57  

Yeah. What was that? Like? What was that? Like the first time you stepped in front of a room of students basically just stepped off of your mat as a student and to the front of the room. Now you are the instructor. Tell me about that.

Rebecca Sebastian  6:13  

So I will say my childhood gave me some advantages. So I spent a lot of years myself in theater classes because it's easy. It was easy for me to stand up in front of a rope. No. I tell folks that I'm actually extremely introverted and almost nobody believes me, but I am I like to stay home with tea and a book that's ideal. For me is to be at home. But I don't mind standing in front of a room of folks. And so that training you know taught me some of the basics of how to project your voice how to act confident when you really are terrified, knew no idea what you're doing, which was me and then my degree in college was in communication studies. So I did have some training in the efficacy of wordplay and how to put words together to create the most effective communication. I just applied all those skills to teaching people how to move their bodies in space.

Ericka Thomas  7:10  

Right and that's, that's a critical piece, that communication piece. My background is also in communications. How weird is that? So like. I know it's crazy. I'm listening to you. I'm like, Hey, do Did you teach anything any kind of other fitness classes or were you full on yoga from the beginning?

Rebecca Sebastian  7:38  

Full on yoga from the beginning, I taught nothing else. I had no other skill set. I mean, like I said, I had done theater. I had done speech competitions in high school, I actually made my way to some sort of state speech competition. So again, I was used to being able to take words that I knew and then regurgitate them in my own voice with my own time like that training I had ahead of time, which I realize a lot of fitness and wellness instructors, actually that's a skill they have to learn on the job, how to take your teachers words and make them yours.

Ericka Thomas  8:12  

Absolutely. And I wanted to bring that up because that's kind of a missing piece or it's not as emphasized in our training from the physical fitness side of instruction, that communication piece that how to teach piece. You know, we we know what to teach, but the how to teach and how to make that connection with other people. Sometimes that is less. We don't spend as much time on it, basically.

Rebecca Sebastian  8:42  

Yes. Okay. So this is our next business venture. Erica is going to go out and teach people the communication side of teaching yoga, because this is also very different than in my nonprofit. I work with folks who are professional educators. Right? They're used to communicating to small key events. That is a different skill set than communicating to a peer group, which is essentially whoever's coming in your wellness or fitness class or your yoga class. Those are completely different skills. And you're right, we don't talk about it. Essentially what we do is say you either have it or you don't.

Ericka Thomas  9:21  

Right. And that is sometimes the piece that sets one instructor apart from another instructor. It's not that they don't have the knowledge yes, that they don't have you know, the years of experience necessarily, but that that piece to be able to kind of change gears based on who isn't in the room with you and to be able to really connect with them. And, you know, the more we talk a lot about niching down in our business to to speak with one particular group. But in the fitness industry, sometimes that's not always possible because you have lots of different kinds of people walking into your room and I and in yoga, specifically, you might have a room full of people and every single one of them is at some kind of different place in their life. You have to be able to teach to the entire room. And not just to that front row, the front row people that are all into it with you. You know that back row really matters most when we're when we're talking about being accessible and bringing what we bring to the community.

Rebecca Sebastian  10:34  

Ooh, I love that. Yes, because you aren't into a yoga class with me. I'm a back row human, every time and I've spent my whole life trying to get as far away from the teacher as humanly possible. Like, like I was not one of those people who are, you know, we do have those front row humans, like you said, who are almost I'm thinking of one student of mine in particular who's like, almost right on top of me, she's so close. And it's she's like, I'm just a good student. I want to know exactly what you're saying and how you're doing it. But then it's this backrow humans if we're able to change the language for them as well, who will say something afterwards, like I thought what you said, I thought about what you said last week, and I went home, and I told my husband about it. And now we're both having moments where we create intentions before breakfast. And that's actually something that happened to me and those front row humans are so engrossed in that experience of being front row humans, sometimes they miss the subtlety of the words coming out of our mouths. So you can either teach to them like you said, or you can really know that those back row people are also having a thought process and they're deep in their experience, too. It just comes out differently. Yeah,

Ericka Thomas  11:48  

and and everybody that comes into your room, no matter what your format is, they're there for a different reason. And it's not necessarily the reason you think it is. So when we are crafting how we teach, and the way we communicate, it's really important to understand that you don't know everybody's story in the room. So we need to be really, really mindful, really careful about how we engage the people in the room. Not that you can completely, you know, protect everyone from you know, what they're going to feel they're going to feel what they are going to feel, but it's still an important awareness for an instructor to have when they step on their mat and further room just to know that those people are not necessarily there for a good workout. They're not necessarily there to they're not there necessarily to perfect their sensory rotation. You know, some of them are just there for the last 10 minutes of class where they can lay in Shavasana. That's nothing else matters. That's their only purpose and being we have to make that a safe space for them to be able to choose that.

Rebecca Sebastian  13:07  

I think you said something really smart there that when you said about stories, right? So everybody comes in with a story about what's happening. And sometimes it's really easy for us as instructors because because we're watching people's bodies move in space, right? We become really perceptive and that's another thing that you know, I mean, in yoga, we have a significant amount of humans with trauma, and those humans tend to be more perceptive than average, right? Because they grew up needing to cultivate the skills to keep them safe, right? And now we've just moved this into a class and taken our perception and said, Okay, now I know how everybody is in the room because I'm really good at this part of it. And that's me too. That's my story as well. But we tell stories about what we're seeing in the room. And that's not necessarily what's happening on those mats. I have said oftentimes, I'll never forget there are times I walk into a room and I'm like, Man, I taught the heck out of that class that was a great like feeling so good. And nobody says a word to me after except find Becca, see you next week. And then other times, I will feel like I just found it in and I wasn't really bringing my best to the table. And I'll have four people come up to me and be like that thing you said and then I'm like, oh, shoot, what did I say? Right? Like I was on autopilot there.

Ericka Thomas  14:29  

Right? Or, you know, the mystery. I really needed to hear that today. You're like, Oh, I wish I knew what I said to you. So I could say it again. I know. I know what was it?

Rebecca Sebastian  14:44  

We all have that experience, right?

Ericka Thomas  14:47  

Yes. It does make you feel good, though, right? Like this is it does. This is why we do what we do for that because somebody might need to hear what you have to say somebody might need that.

Rebecca Sebastian  14:59  

So true. In the story that we have about how good or bad we did it our job is not the reality of what is happening on those mats are in the realm of your fitness class, no matter how perceptive you think you are, except is their experience.

Ericka Thomas  15:16  

Exactly. Exactly. Yep. Yeah. So let's kind of shift gears a little bit because I want to transition from the beginning of your yoga teaching experience to actually owning a brick and mortar store, because that doesn't happen overnight. And I think for a lot of a lot of us, I don't know if it's all I hesitate to say every instructor who teaches anything starts as an independent contractor. But many of us do. And for independent contractors, it sometimes seems like the only way to scale the only the only way to make a sustainable living in the business that you love is to open a brick and mortar store is to own the gym. Or open the studio. And I wanted to talk to you about that that can be like really daunting and actually put up a lot of barriers that can really paralyze somebody from moving forward. So what do you think about that? Do you feel like that was the way for you? And what what was your journey there? How did you get from independent contractor to owning your studio and beyond?

Rebecca Sebastian  16:39  

So I will tell you a story. I don't know that I told anybody else there so how I made that shift, I spent a long time essentially without the title of managing a yoga studio that I worked for. And it was from a legacy teacher in my community who had she's in her mid 70s now and everybody was waiting for her to retire. And I was the chosen person. But I was going to be the person who was going to carry on this sacred community. And two things happened one, the studio was forced to move to a place that had one room instead of two rooms. So I couldn't do yoga therapy out of that space. And during that time, I began to see that I was a participant in what essentially was a really toxic community. And we talk a lot about the big name toxicity that happens in the yoga space. We have a lot of bigger name teachers who have created really toxic environments who had had perpetrated abuse and things like that. This community wasn't that but it was toxic, in that same sort of cult dynamic and that same sort of Guru dynamic where one person couldn't be questioned. And there was a moment and it was just, you know, so everybody has a different personality. I'm either all in until I'm not in and then when I'm not in I'm going to set everything on fire or something else. That's just my personality, right? And I had a moment where I was like, Oh, I'm I'm I'm in the problem. Not only am I a part of a problem, I'm like smack in the eye of the hurricane of the problem. So I left and I created my own space and I was a very popular well known teacher at that studio. Not one person followed me. Not one so I essentially started over. But I started over because I needed space to do yoga therapy, which is from a nuts and bolts perspective. You just make more money per hour like I make $120 An hour like that's a huge class if I'm teaching a class of yoga students, but it's one person if they're just coming to see me. So practicality wise, I made more money that way. And also, I wanted to see if I could create a space a yoga studio space that was in alignment with my morals and ethics and the morals and ethics that we teach in the yoga industry because I saw a lot of it was not congruent, right? We have owners who because studios have low profit margins are exploiting the yoga teacher training system. So actually don't teach 200 Our teachers in my business. I don't train initial yoga teachers I want to do I make a point that I was going to make the industry better not contribute to the problem. So I was I said, I didn't know I didn't know if I could do it. And I opened nine months before COVID So

Ericka Thomas  19:45  

wow, yeah.

Rebecca Sebastian  19:47  

But I'm still here. And if you're an independent teacher out there, let me tell you, the sky's the limit because the internet gives us access to things that we never had that I never had access to in the previous 19 years of me teaching. I never had access to create content in the way that I do now. And really reach people who I want to reach.

Ericka Thomas  20:07  

Did you see a growth in your studio even through COVID? Or was it just kind of in staying staying level was staying level? 

Rebecca Sebastian  20:19  

I did you know I got lucky in some ways. So the town that I'm in had grant money for me that came at a really good time. So I got grant money for my city. But previous to that, I had started a program called Yoga with friends. So what I realized was people were willing to come out to take a yoga class but they didn't want to do that with strangers. So what I told them they could do was rent my space and control who was in the room. And for a flat fee. They would come in and they would pay for an hour yoga class with five of their friends and so I knew we could stay socially distanced. And they would they filled out a form that told me what kind of class they wanted. And I had this staff of eight people. And so we played matchmaker, so somebody would say, Oh, we want to sweat today. Great. Now my hardcore vinyasa teacher is going to come in and teach you a class. Oh, we're really interested in mobility. Okay, great. I'm going to be the person who's going to come in and teach that class because that's a specialty of mine. And that's really what sustained me through COVID that program

Ericka Thomas  21:29  

That's brilliant. Rebecca, that is absolutely brilliant. And when I when I look around just the town where I am, I saw so many small yoga studio friends just disappear over the last 18 months. They couldn't do it. They couldn't do it. And it really takes kind of a higher level creativity to to discover that about your community and then being able to give that back to them. I think that's awesome.

Rebecca Sebastian  21:59  

Thank you. I mean, to some degree, I wasn't beholden to what I had been doing because I was so new. So I had no you know, none of those reservations about oh, this is how it's supposed to work. None of that applied to me. I was just like, I don't know what's supposed to work, but I'm gonna try anything.

Ericka Thomas  22:17  

Yeah. And And actually, that's how you discover what does work is trying anything and being okay with it not working. Like whatever doesn't work. We're just gonna let that go and start something we'll try something else.

Rebecca Sebastian  22:31  

And it's interesting. Now these groups that I had last October, November, December for yoga with friends, I'm now getting those callbacks, seeing oh my gosh, we can't wait to start again because it's really nice in the winter time, where, you know, primarily my my group of humans who come to my studio are primarily vaccinated almost all of them. So they're not worried so much about COVID anymore, but cold and flu season or just the fact it was the night that they went out with their girlfriends and one of them baked this is true. I had one group where she's a baker and she brought cupcakes and she brought scones and somebody else brought tea and they just had a night of it and it was fun.

Ericka Thomas  23:09  

Awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. So, okay, so tell me talk about some of the biggest challenges that you may have had to overcome early in your career that may have helped you in the evolution of your business. Can you think of specific things that maybe kind of set you up to be able to roll with the punches a little bit

Rebecca Sebastian  23:36  

so early on, I think, because I came into yoga teaching as somebody who was like, I wasn't in it to make a name. Like I kept saying no, right at the beginning. So from the beginning, I knew that I wanted to learn as much as I possibly could. Whereas I see and in my generation of teachers now, like I saw a lot of people coming in going this is an opportunity for me to make a name. So when I first started teaching, there were the Yoga Journal conferences were really big. And there was like a circuit that you could get on to travel the world and teach yoga. And I saw a lot of folks especially in the hardcore, Ashtanga world and the peak or moral to were very, into the physical fitness side of yoga. Push into that realm, and it made me feel isolated because I came in for my wellness not for my fitness, it came in because I had an injury, and I wanted to feel better. But then what I quickly found out was that there was more people like me than there were like them. So they wanted to come and learn how I stopped having pain now. I told you a story about hip dysplasia. I haven't had hip pain in decades and I went through two children natural childbirth thing with no pain, and I attribute that to my yoga practice. But I used my practice to help heal my body as opposed to using my body as an experiment for this big advanced asana practice.

Ericka Thomas  25:15  

Right. Right. So let's let's talk about that body brand thing a little bit, huh? Okay. Let's dig a little bit deeper into that. I mean, you see that in any format. And it's interesting because in the yoga space, not only do you see like this body brand culture kind of growing up around specific instructors, but you also have this guru mentality. Like you mentioned earlier. You did you did speak to that a little bit. It does come up in every you know, like every school, every single school there is a little bit of it, even if it's not the major part. And unfortunately sometimes it becomes a major part and, and instructors get so locked into their teacher lineage. And what do you think about that? I mean, I have opinions about it, but this is not about me. What do you think about that? 

Rebecca Sebastian  26:25  

I think it's complicated and partially because we're also in yoga having this really wonderful conversation about cultural appropriation. We don't want to completely divorce what we're doing in the West, from the source from India, like that's also not okay. But at the same time, we have to reassess right like we know that yoga was taught primarily to men in India for eons. Right. So a lot of our alignment comes from the male body and a young male body at that, because the one guy invented alignment, right. So now we're all beholden to this one guy. Well, he was doing his best to teach who was in front of him. Just a 43 year old woman who's had two kids and was born with hip dysplasia was not who was in front of him. So it doesn't make sense that the body part of what we learned would apply to me because I wasn't the first students like, those first students didn't look like me. And that has to be okay. We have to be able to say your body is unique to you. And what you do with it a is your choice always. And B is movable. It's not at this solid thing and I was trained as an Iron Guard teacher. So my first training was I anger which, as those of you who know the modalities of yoga, no alignment focus, your foot goes here. Your arm goes here, your front heel lines up with the arch of your back foot in standing poses. So that guys never met an Italian woman who had babies so when my friend said does not line up with my back foot, like my hips are significantly wider than yours, sir. Can we try something else?

Ericka Thomas  28:25  

Yeah, and yeah, that that just kind of ties back into how we translate what we're teaching, right? Our the communication to this, the people who are in front of us, and we can end up really shutting a lot of people out by holding on to that really strict mindset about what it is that we teach, like it doesn't really something that I have been really, really exploring lately, is this idea that it's not about the one thing that works it's that there are many, many things that can work for whoever is in front of you, and that it's really important that you kind of lay out the feast and let people take whatever they want from it. And and instead of because if you don't do that, you just present one thing one way and someone will say, well, that's not for me, so none of it is for me.

Rebecca Sebastian  29:31  

Yes. For no reason. Reason, like we're shutting people out. Why are we shutting? People out? There's no reason for it is my I'm picking on the younger partially because that was my original lineage. Now as a yoga therapist, I slide into the Shivananda lineage if I'm I will honor my teachers there, right. But for example, my foot doesn't line up with my back foot

Rebecca Sebastian  30:00  

That doesn't make me better or worse at yoga if it does or doesn't. So So why are we shutting people out? Because it doesn't make you a better yoga practitioner, if you can do the body brand things that look pretty on Instagram and our you know, arbitrary alignment like, right, that's not making you better at yoga, the whole of yoga.

Ericka Thomas  30:21  

Right? So let's speak to instructors specifically about about that because I think that whether it's purposeful or accidental, or just a lack of awareness about it, I think that instructors can kind of fall into this trap of perpetuating this idea that you have to look a certain way. In order to be a yogi. You have to look a certain way to be an instructor of anything. You have to be a certain body type or certain strength. I know I fell into that for years and that's why I'm suffering with overuse injuries because I thought I had to be the strongest one in the room and do everything to the nth degree. So I never I would lead classes but I rarely got off my that for a couple reasons. One was ego. And the other was, sometimes people would get off their mat and follow me. Like, because they really do they're really locked in right, they're really locked in on that person. And that is that can be a real issue. And if you what, what I have seen in my experience is that in classes that are really locked in on their instructor, and they have elevated them to this guru status it's really hard for them to learn from anyone else, and to maintain that beginner mindset and to even accept any other way to do anything. We want more open minded people in the world. Yeah, yeah. So what do you what do you say to your instructors that may be work for you, or that approached you to work in your studio? How do you how do you kind of broach that subject with them?

Rebecca Sebastian  32:16  

So I have one phrase that I tell all the people who teach for me and just instructors in general who have relationships with it is my job to remove myself from my students experiences as much as possible. So there's a lot of things and that was something that I just realized years ago going through it, sort of working in a community that was very a guru sort of culty community that the person in charge was forever on the front of the room, and we were always sort of beholden to this person in charge. And so I stopped going to classes because I didn't like that personally. Like I was like, I find my most powerful moments. have been when I'm solo when I'm by myself when somebody else isn't always invading my practice. So I so I kind of ran an experiment experiment, because I was trying to get better at my job. And I thought, okay, so what am I going to do to remove myself from their experience? Allow them to have their own experience. So the first thing I stopped doing this was ages ago, before this really trendy I stopped touching people. So I gave no physical adjustments. And that was for the sheer reason. It's something we've talked about like three or four times now. I wanted my verbal skills to get better. And I knew that I was being lazy by touching people's bodies as opposed to giving them skillful words to tell them what I wanted them to do. So I just was like, again, I'm an all or nothing person. Sometimes actually, if you ask my husband he will confirm I am an all or nothing person. I just went I'm just not going to touch people anymore and see what happens. And for a while, I stalked and my students asked me for adjustments because and this is what really told me I was on the right path. They were coming to me saying I want you to adjust me again because how else do I know that? I'm doing it right. Oh, that's a message I never meant to give. Right? I was just doing what my teacher had taught me how to do exactly and her teacher had taught her what to do. And this whole time, we've been sending messages to our students that the only way you're right, is if someone puts your hands on you and physically moves your body to the right position.

Ericka Thomas  34:43  

There's so much wrong with that. That idea around any kind of physical movement. I mean, there's there is good alignment there safe alignment, which you can talk someone through it. You can model it in a certain way. And you can teach people how to be more present in their body so that they can know like, if I feel this, then maybe I need to move here Or where can I go like it's becoming it's teaching them to become their own expert witness in the body. And yes, I hear exactly what you're saying. I've never been comfortable with physical adjustments from day one in yoga. I'm not comfortable with other people touching me period, ever. And I've had that I've had that happen in other yoga workshops and classes and I was just like, you are lucky that you got out of there without a black eye. You know, I mean, like

just lucky, you know? So if I felt like if I wasn't comfortable doing it or receiving that, then I wasn't going to I mean, why why even you know, why even teach your classes to expect that So, right. Yeah, so that's interesting that you made that shift on your own from you know, at a certain point but it really does push you it stretches your communication skills right away, right away when you do that.

Rebecca Sebastian  36:25  

The second thing I did was I no longer teach with a mat, nor do I practice with a mat. And so what I realized as a teacher and this was a time like I said, I was trying to uplevel my skills, and I realized there were two things I was lazy about. One was that instead of using my words, I was physically moving people's bodies where I wanted them to go. And I didn't want to do that anymore. And the second thing was that when I didn't know what to do, my mat was home. Base. As a teacher, even when I was walking around the room, you know, saying like, if I wanted to look and see what somebody was doing, if I wasn't sure I would go back to my mat and then start my own practice and then figure out where to go from there. And I wanted to take home base away because home base meant I wasn't with my students, I was with myself. And I'm very clear as a teacher of anything, whether you're is yoga or SoulCycle, or whatever. If you're teaching something you're with the people who are in front of you and your practice or your workout happens at a different time.

Ericka Thomas  37:32  

Yeah, absolutely. And that's really, really important. I think yoga. teaching yoga really lends itself to that to being able to kind of remove yourself from the physical workout. Yes. And not every format out there in the fitness industry does. And so it's really it's tricky. It's tricky because you there are classes that I mean, you cannot step out of a leading a cardio kickboxing class to walk the room, everyone will stop, like, Right. They'll be like, what's next, like they, you know, certain types of formats require that type of leadership and so it is another level of skill to be able to stay there do the same so that they can follow you but, but drop your level of intensity enough so that you can be aware of them. Yeah, because exactly what you just said the workout is or the or the the class or the movement, whatever it is that you're teaching, it's not for you. It's it's never for you. And if you forget that it's going to be a real challenge to be able to sustain your career for a long period of time that's like, physically impossible to scale, something like that if you have to do everything with everyone. Yeah, for sure. So let's, let's talk a little bit about that. That point about being able to be there for your students as a point of professionality I don't even know if that's a word, but it is now. We'll make it one. Yeah. What is it that makes an instructor a professional? In your mind?

Rebecca Sebastian  39:39  

That is a good question. So I think that there is a level of professionalism that has to happen. And yoga struggles with this specifically and as we said, My expertise is in the yoga world, right. So you I mean, they're the basics right? You show up on time, you leave you enter class on time, like those basics like and this is something I'm so like, my poor teachers are so tired of me saying, I was like, you can't explain it somebody else's time. So you don't go five minutes over ever, ever. Like ever? Like Like, I don't care if you've asked everybody and they all said yes they asked and said yes in a group dynamic where you are the person in power and they were publicly accountable to other people in the room. So of course they said yes. So it basic level of professionalism and respect, having enough knowledge to know what your limitations are, I think is really key for a professional. You have to know when to say I don't know. And that I think the the sort of master level teachers that I have met, can be there for your students can say, I hear you and see you and your question, and I don't know the answer. Let's find out together. And I think that's a level of if we're talking about teaching and communication as that skill set. I do you think that being able to say I don't know is okay. Necessary? Yeah.

Ericka Thomas  41:14  

And well, and also that helps the instructor to be able to stay within their scope in a way that is more comfortable. Maybe you know, if you can give yourself permission as an instructor to not know everything, you know, I mean, you can't possibly know everything, can't. You can study and study and study forever and you're never there's always going to be that one person in class that asked that thing that you don't like, what?

Rebecca Sebastian  41:45  

What was yoga like in Northern India in 1774? Oh, yeah. I will ask my friend who is an expert on that. And get back to you.

Ericka Thomas  41:56  

It was probably pretty hot.

Rebecca Sebastian  41:59  

But also we know that people in India didn't practice during the hottest times of the day. So as today, they're all out at 6am It's not so hot.

Ericka Thomas  42:07  

Exactly. There's some wisdom to be.

Rebecca Sebastian  42:13  

I have a friend on my nonprofit board my friend Shubhangi and she was born in Jaipur. And so and she actually, her first yoga training was at an ashram in Jaipur. And so she comes over and sometimes she'll be like, I don't understand why it's got to be so hot in the ropes. Like we're outside where there is fresh air. And it's in the morning when it's not so hot. Like I know.

Ericka Thomas  42:38  

Yeah, yeah, it is a thing

Okay, so let's get into this sticky money thing.

Rebecca Sebastian  42:49  

 Oh, yes. 

Ericka Thomas  42:51  

Because part of the way I view a professional anything is somebody who gets paid for their work. Yeah, yes. Right. I mean, we got to make a living. And just because this is something that you're passionate about doing doesn't mean you do it for free. I mean, you definitely could do it for free. Surely it doesn't. It doesn't take anything away from it, if you are getting paid, or does it? So let's, let's go into that a little bit about money and value. For work when we're talking about instruction, either in the yoga space or in general for fitness. I will tell you that my first the first class I ever taught was, I got $12 an hour for and it was a long time before that went to much higher than that. And that was just the going rate and all of those things are are kind of location dependent. Of course, you know, depending on where you are teaching and things like that. But I think independent contractors, instructors of everything, and especially yoga instructors, we have a hard time assigning a value to what it is that we're doing. And so it's hard to even ask for that. It's it's hard to pick a number and asked for that and stick by it because you know, it's it that sometimes it feels icky. Yeah. So, what do you think? What's your experience? Paying individuals for teaching classes and then you know, asking for that fair value exchange.

Rebecca Sebastian  44:44  

So first thing I want to say and this is something in the yoga space that we also don't talk about a lot. yoga studios have not very high profit margins, meaning we're not making a lot of money. A lot of times you're trying to figure out how to shove as many bodies in the room that has been the model forever and ever right for yoga studios. How many bodies you can shove into a room equals how much money you make. So very likely, your yoga studio owner is paying their teacher as much as they can afford to pay them. So I want to say that first up very likely, that is not universally true. And there are way too many studios that are frankly not paying base pay like like if you come you make this amount of money if one person comes or 20 people comes or no people come like you. base pay is important. I think as a studio owner, my teachers all get base pay plus then a PR person on top of that. And I've structured it that way because I would never work any other way. Personally, I would never work for somebody that said, Oh, it's going to be a flat fee. And I'm like no, no, but my classes will be packed. I want to make more money if my classes are packed. Right. That is how I operate as a 20 year yoga teacher at the beginning. If somebody wants to pay a $35 flat fee for a class and be like, Oh my god, that's amazing. We'll do that forever. And in the beginning, when you don't have a following when you're not sure how to get students who are going to necessarily follow you from place to place, making sure that you make enough money to make it worth your time and effort I think is important or from a business perspective, and I tell yoga teachers this all the time. The money comes from being able to create skills niched out content and it can be whatever niche like it doesn't have to be yoga for like yoga for backs or yoga for whatever it can just be this is the thing I'm maybe I'm the you know, I'm the teacher who has all the weird props, and I'm going to teach workshops where we explore all the weird props. That's where you're going to make your 400 or $600 in two hours, and you're going to use your yoga classes as loss leaders in business terms, where it's not really worth your time to go to that class. If you're looking at it as an individual thing. Like I only make $15 for this yoga class, say if that's you know, if you're working the Why are wise pay about $15 but you can reach 50 people in that in that time. So I'm not really made a lot of money for $15 but I now have 50 new students who know my name who know who I am who I can then perhaps use to take them into a higher cost workshop where making more money. So you can look at classes as loss leaders and I tell teachers to do that all the time, especially if they're working. Bigger content if they're if they have something a voice they want to share. If you're if you're experiencing somewhere where you see free yoga and a year that yoga teacher is there, likely to one of two things are happening one year in a marketing funnel. So you the the student or the asset if you're getting something for free, you the students are likely be asked that right so they've collected your email address. I mean, we we all know this process, right? Like they've collected something from you, to make you the student the asset. So it's not free. You've given something for that opportunity, or to that teacher is likely being exploited. That system is saying, Oh, we're going to offer free yoga to get people into our I mean, I have literally seen car dealerships offer free yoga classes like like I have like, and those teachers are told to teach the class either for no money and the exposure which is a huge problem in our industry, like oh no, all these people will know your name from this one class. Nope, that's not how that works. That's not how any of it works. Or they're being paid very, very little to do so. So I know that teacher is either part of a marketing funnel and then I'll look at her and say you're very savvy if you're collecting all these email addresses so you can sell them your workshop later, or that teacher has not done their work around money.

Ericka Thomas  49:33  

Yeah. Yeah. So how do you feel about the flood of free yoga content? Online? As far as like YouTube, for example? I'm just curious.

Rebecca Sebastian  49:52  

So I again use, run a YouTube channel for my studio in the same way of the loss leader mentality, right? So I'm taking short versions of my longer classes in my paid subscription and putting them on YouTube. back to when I fell because I'm the person in my studio that does all the virtual filming. And I'll teach like a third of the class and then pause and say, subscribe to our YouTube channel if you want any more information, and then continue the class and just edit that out for the bigger class. That I'm putting in our subscription model. So that to me, seems effective, right? Like if you're using it as a loss leader, you know, you're not you're giving good work, and sometimes maybe you're giving a little bit of your best work. But the reason you're doing that is to take people from point A which is free yoga online to point B, which is, in my case, either doing our virtual subscription or ideally coming into my studio and taking classes, which has happened quite frequently. I've used that my YouTube channel which has very few subscribers, but I've gained probably 10 members like paying monthly 100 bucks a month members who said I found you on YouTube, realized you were local to me and then came in and now they're paying me $100 a month and they get classes at my studio and they get classes online and all the other perks that come with my membership.

Ericka Thomas  51:23  

Nice, nice. So do you think that free idea around yoga, do you think that that is damaging the industry? At all? I mean,

Rebecca Sebastian  51:36  

most definitely. So

Ericka Thomas  51:39  

I was I feel like when people under charge or don't charge for what they teach doesn't matter the format, it it cheapens the value of what you are offering, not just what you are offering, but everyone else who offers that too. And I have I've done a lot of free things over the years aligns a lot and it really didn't translate into anything more necessarily for me. It was just more work more energy out into the universe. So yeah, I was just interested to hear what you thought about that. In general, what do you see? Or where do you see the biggest need for a change in the yoga industry? And maybe fitness and wellness as a whole as a whole? If any, if I mean where where do you see you know, you're the shift that you're looking to make?

Rebecca Sebastian  52:48  

I really want to and I realized no, you set me up for this earlier and so I'm going to talk about it more. So thanks. But I want us to call ourselves professionals. I want us to be professionals. And I want us to build the profession that we're proud of, which is part of why I started my podcast was that I got to come on and talk to yoga teachers about why they love teaching yoga, because what I don't think people understand is how much heart we have, how much we've come into this, this practice going. It changed me fundamentally. And I want to share that with the people in front of me. We love our jobs. We love what we do. We love our students. I mean, I had a class recently that I left and it was 13 years I taught that class actually a little longer than 13 years. I love them. They know all of my stuff. I know all of their stuff. I went to one of their retirement parties like this is a true connection that we make with our students. And that has enough value that we can call ourselves professionals for it. And if you're professional at something, you not only show up on time, like I said earlier, but also you have pride in your industry. You're not going to take any of the abuses that we have taken so far. Like that won't be accepted anymore. This is my profession. I'm proud of what I do. And I think sometimes that is the key that is missing in yoga particularly is the pride in our jobs. Oftentimes our pride is attached to who we learned from. So we have pride in our lineages, but not pride in ourselves not pride in our jobs. And I want that to shift. And it's not that the teacher student model isn't important. Of course it is. We should be proud of our teachers. But if we're not proud of our teachers, we should say so. I was originally trained as an art teacher. I'm not proud of my teacher who's mean he hit people that's not okay. He like strapped people to chairs. And that's not okay, but I'm still proud of my job. I'm still proud of the transformation and shift that I help my students make every day. I'm proud of the space that I've created for yoga teachers and my business. And I want us to have that pride so that we can create our best industry which includes us not getting paid bare bones wages and being really squishy and saying oh, I don't know if I'm worth that much or oh my gosh, you know Yoga should be free to everybody because I want everybody to have access Sure, that's fine, but that's a different conversation. Right now you need to get paid. And there are models that you can create in your business to get paid and also give access to those who don't have access. We can talk about that too. But let's be proud of our jobs show up like it matters because it does.

Ericka Thomas  56:06  

Yeah, that is such that is brilliant. First of all, thank you for saying that. And it's not just in the yoga space, because you see that in group fitness and even personal training and health coaching all of that stuff. Because I think people step into it as either a side hustle or hobby or maybe it starts off that way. And I can't tell you how many other group fitness instructors I've heard say, Well, you know, we don't do this for the money. And I remember looking at that one chick and saying, Speak for yourself. I'm doing it for the money. Like I don't turn my nose up at that paycheck. And oh, by the way, you should be paying me more you know, like that just for the fact of how much it costs to maintain to get and then maintain any certification. Every yoga is super expensive in time and time and in money. And then once you have that there's you know, continuing education if you want if you do have pride, but you do I mean you pursue those other bits of knowledge to make yourself a better instructor. You make choices to bring your students the best. And that's how that's what I did. Coming from the fitness side yoga started off for me as being you know, the thing I did to take care of myself, and then it turned into another piece of my job. So So while I came from that fitness side, it was still started off as like a self care thing. This is the one thing that I don't get paid for that I can enjoy and now all of a sudden I still enjoy it, but now I have to teach it. Yeah. And, and, you know if if you're going to keep that in mind you know, when we're talking about the billions of dollars, not just in the yoga industry, but in the fitness industry. And you ask the question, like you asked on a recent podcast of working in yoga about who's getting all that money and the answer is all of those certification agencies. I mean, I'm paying through the nose to maintain my certifications. And, you know, just out of curiosity, as a part of my business evolution, I'm looking at starting to offer continuing education credits in certain ways in trauma sensitive trauma informed ways. And as I'm doing that research for these through the certifying agencies, you know, I will have to pay them again, in order to be able to offer CCS Yeah, through them. So now that's just another day just they shouldn't be paying us to offer their edits, doing anything. What are you doing nothing. I'm doing the work. I develop the program. I present the program I do the marketing for the program. What do you do not take my money?

Rebecca Sebastian  59:25  

They put you on their website?

Ericka Thomas  59:27  

Yes. Yes. There is value to that. I will say there is ...

Rebecca Sebastian  59:33  

I don't know. I mean, when is the last time that you use your registry as the open line of a marketing funnel.  nobody

Ericka Thomas  59:40  

You don't know what you don't know and the word and my name is already on several websites as yours probably is to registered yoga. I mean, people can find instructors in their area who are certified. Every certification has some sort of search engine for whatever it is that you’re  

looking for, and you can put your name on there, and then people can search you there. But regular people don't often do that. That's not how that's not how you get found. So that's the thing, you know, like, okay here.

Rebecca Sebastian  1:00:18  

So I will say this too. So and I'm going to name the name because in yoga, our main registers called the yoga Alliance, and they're an incredibly problematic organization. They didn't start out that way. They started out just trying to help people find good yoga teachers in the 90s Like, nobody could have seen that. There was going to be a flood of billions of dollars in yoga pants and yoga mats that was going to push our industry out of church basements out of you know, like I started a theater I've taught I'm in Iowa, so I've literally taught yoga and a place where they have livestock auctions like, like I've been teaching a long time in a lot of weird places. But we're definitely past that point where most of us are in studios or in fitness facilities of some kind, where people expect a polished experience, and we're still paying 90 or $100 to get on a list at the yoga Alliance. So let me tell you this. I have taught as a yoga therapist and yoga teacher at more than one university at more than one hospital, in fact, was the yoga teacher connected with the mental health facility of our local hospital for years. And here's the conversation. Are you in the yoga Alliance registered because I know that's a thing for you guys. And my response is, it's just a registry. Actually, they don't check our credentials at all, nor do they check the credentials of the schools, who are yoga Alliance registered schools. So it's not what you think it is? Is that okay? And I was in every time you don't need it.

Ericka Thomas  1:01:59  

Yeah, I was on on on a call with them. After I had registered with them. I think it was like the second year and I'm like, How come I'm having to pay you again this year? And, and she's like, um, there's all this stuff we do for you really? Because I haven't seen anything. Like, why am I doing this? Why am I paying you

Rebecca Sebastian  1:02:21  

this Athleta already gives you discounts. You don't need to be a yoga Alliance registered.

Ericka Thomas  1:02:28  

I know and that's a really good that's a really good discount. Do

Rebecca Sebastian  1:02:33  

you already get discounts on yoga pants without paying the yoga Alliance? $97 a year? I think it's like 95 $97 you get you get a discount be Yogi will give you a discount without being yoga Alliance registered for your insurance. And by the way, it's cheaper if you just go through your home or renter's insurance to be a yoga teacher. So you don't need that discount either. We'll just need an insurance agent. Really

Ericka Thomas  1:02:58  

nice knowing knows that that's probably the most valuable thing we've talked about today actually.

Rebecca Sebastian  1:03:05  

Like, silly, ridiculous knowledge about the yoga Alliance, like their $19 million surplus that they just did on Well, 40% of the yoga studios in our country, shut down those small brick and mortars you talked about beginning Yeah, there was no help from them. And they have 10s of millions of dollars just sitting there because they collect money from their registers still collected money. Yeah. From registrants.

Ericka Thomas  1:03:31  

Yeah, yeah, that's it. There was no help for us. Yeah. Are you sure? Are you sure that $97 is worth it? Yeah, I didn't know I didn't know some of that. That's that's good to know. Sometimes we just follow along like lemmings. Rebecca as you know, because we don't know what we don't know. And that's why podcasts like this are good. We have to have the conversations out loud. Right? Yeah, share that. Yeah. So what's one piece of encouragement that you can share with other fitness professionals that maybe are kind of struggling to balance on that edge of, of the challenge of what they teach? And finding some success? Maybe something that helped you a bit of wisdom that maybe you wish somebody had shared with you?

Rebecca Sebastian  1:04:19  

I wish somebody would have told me that it's okay to talk about the money. And it's okay to want to get paid and to talk about wanting to get paid. Even if you don't know where to start, because that's the thing, right? We're all super lost. Like I want to make a living on this job. I don't know how to do that though. And in yoga, and I suspected other fitness professions is collecting more classes, so that you're teaching you know, I mean, this is this is story. I always tell I taught 18 classes a week when I was pregnant with both of my children, which is crazy. Like, I understand that like, I can't believe I did that. But that was what I had to do to pay my bills was teach 18 times a week. I don't know.

Ericka Thomas  1:05:07  

Yeah, Rebecca, I hear Yeah. I've been there too. I've been up there too. I think back on it. And I'm like, I just cringe. I'm like my poor body. Like I write my poor body.

Rebecca Sebastian  1:05:18  

And nobody told me even at that time that I could make it a weekend worth of workshops. What I made it three weeks of teaching that was 18 classes a week. So we're not even teaching our new professionals that are up and coming, how to make a sustainable living. And there are a lot of people who've put in their time or saying well this is how I did it. So somebody has to pay their dues. I don't think you do. I think you have to learn your your craft and your skill set. And that does mean teaching means teaching and sometimes teaching to one or two people of course, but that's only so that you can get better at your job. Once you get better at your job. Create a Business. Make it something that you can make money off of. That's not going against yoga, that's not going against fitness. It doesn't mean your money grubbing capitalist, like that's also not the problem. Like you getting paid fair and thriving wages for your work is not the problem with capitalism or industrialization. Like, like you aren't the issue, especially 85% of yoga teachers are women. Ladies, you're not the issue. Oh my god. If I was to put up if we were in a screen right now and I was to put up who has the money in yoga, which I have done before. It is all men. They're all plus 50. They all look about the same. They all have the same skin color that you think they have. Like that's where our money is, but the facilitators are women. Go take their money. Right now. Go take your money seriously. Like create a business, get paid and get paid. So that you get some of the money because the guy who makes the pants doesn't need that much money. Let's

Ericka Thomas  1:07:19  

just a little sidebar on the whole pants thing. Can I just tell you? This is just I'm just going to share this with with our little little group right here. For it secretly I hate wearing yoga pants. I don't, I've never liked them. They look cute on other people. Maybe I would rather do yoga in my jeans. Yes. And I wish I had some yoga jeans. Some jeans are easier than others but most of my jeans have big old ripped holes in them and I would prefer to teach yoga in jeans. So I may just actually

Rebecca Sebastian  1:08:05  

also so I was I was watching Sara Blakely who was the is the founder of Spanx, right. And one of her big moments was when she was trying to develop Spanx. She was sitting in these manufacturing facilities of people make women's undergarments, and it was all men and the people were designing them were all men. Guess what yoga pants are the exact same way. When's the last time you saw a guy in yoga pants? I mean, I have seen a few. But for the most part, the overwhelming majority of people wearing these are women. They're not manufactured by women. They're not designed by women. Like the guy seriously want to contact Anna Wintour from Vogue and just say, Anna, can you help us take yoga pants back

Ericka Thomas  1:08:50  

or not?

Rebecca Sebastian  1:08:54  

Or seriously wear your sweatpants. Yeah, nobody cares.

Ericka Thomas  1:08:59  

 I've had people you know say give me that as the reason for not wanting to come to class. Same. I don't want to wear yoga pants. Oh my god. Just wear pants like

Rebecca Sebastian  1:09:11  

please don't wear a skirt wear pants. Pants are easier. Wear shorts. Sure. Wear some kind of covering. And you're good. Yeah. Yeah, like I have known people who've lived above yoga studios who are yoga practitioners who didn't go because it was one of the studios where not only did you have to wear yoga pants but they had to be like, not the target yoga pants but the Lululemon yoga pants, and they couldn't afford it. And for while target yoga pants and Lululemon yoga pants were made at the same manufacturing facility in China. Yeah.

Ericka Thomas 1:09:47  

Yeah. Oh my gosh, Rebecca. This has been an amazing conversation. I think we went really long. That's okay. But it just flowed. So sometimes you just got to take advantage of that energy when you've got so

Rebecca Sebastian  1:10:03  

and I know like a stupid amount of things about yoga pants.

Ericka Thomas  1:10:08  

 That's okay. That's okay. I have loved this conversation. And I think it is so valuable and I want to give you an opportunity right now to share where people can find you. Tell people where you are in the country. So if they're looking for an amazing yoga studio that they want to show up in person to how they can find you and just whatever you want to share.

Rebecca Sebastian  1:10:41  

Okay, so I am in Iowa. I'm along the Mississippi River in Davenport, Iowa. My studio is sunlight yoga, and apothecary we also have an apothecary in our lobby. So you can come hang out with us take classes, have a cup of tea, but you can find me on Instagram at RebeccaSebastianyoga, and that's where you find most of my content about the industry. Including my very loud opinions about free yoga. Another face that's all it Rebecca Sebastian yoga. Those are the two main places Oh, and you can check out my website sunlightyogacenter.com,

Ericka Thomas  1:11:19  

beautiful. I'm going to put all those links in the show notes for you. And I want to thank my listeners today my curious listeners for joining us on the work and this is really really been a great episode. So many little bits of wisdom that I hope that you'll take with you. And if you like what you heard and you want to learn more you want to check out those links, go to elemental kinetics.com And they will all be there under The Work IN. So thanks, everybody and I will see you next time. Take care. Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai