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Intro: Mothers of Massive Resistance

• Mandy Griffin

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Navigating the Mess: White Women's Role in Politics and Motherhood


Hosts Mandy Griffin and Katie Swalwell delve into a discussion about the pervasive and historical role white women have played in upholding white supremacy through politics and motherhood. They reflect on the disorienting state of current events, the importance of local action, and the influence of female political figures like Krisit Noem, Pam Bondi, and Joni Ernst. The episode primarily focuses on the book 'Mothers of Massive Resistance' by Elizabeth Gillespie McCray, which explores how white women have consistently contributed to segregation and racism in America. The hosts highlight their disillusionment with the political system and express the need to understand historical patterns to effectively combat ongoing inequalities.

00:00 Welcome to Dirty Laundry

00:46 Life in a Dissociative State

01:39 Trump's Women and Media Overload

04:12 Commercials and Political Ads

07:16 Trump's Surgeon General Nominee Controversy

14:36 The Importance of Science and Research

20:24 Influencers and Misinformation

20:53 Marketing Manipulation and Grifters

21:20 Political Commentary on Joni Ernst

25:40 The Role of Motherhood in Politics

27:26 Plant Research and Mutual Aid

29:11 Introduction to 'Mothers of Massive Resistance'

30:33 White Women's Role in White Supremacy

43:42 Call to Action and Future Plans

Intro:

Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.

Mandy:

We're here.

katy:

Okay.

Mandy:

We always say that we're gonna get back into this, and it's gonna be like this. We're gonna do it. And then it's like three

katy:

Every week. I know May. I'm hoping that that's how everyone's life feels right now. Where has it been? Three months, or has it been three days? Who knows? Who can tell? Who can be. Sure. That's kind of how the rhythm of my life feels anyway. And I know you're in the same boat. So Yes. Like we we're still here and we still think about these things and we're still mad, I guess.

Mandy:

I'm just hoping that I can get through the next three and a half years in this semi dissociative state

katy:

I know.

Mandy:

Did it not happen? We survived?

katy:

What, what day is it? What year is it? What month is it? I mean, I really, and part of this too, and we've talked about this before, is I think us just being middle aged also and like parents of younger kids, like pre-teen kids, and. Also perimenopausal, like my disassociative state could be for lots of reasons, let's put it that way. So it's hard to pin it down and it's kind of all happening at once. But I, I don't know. And I never wanna organize my life around presidential terms.'cause that just feels like a stupid waste of time to do it that way and makes it sound like, oh, once he's gone, everything will be better. Which is not the case, which I know. We know. I know. We know, I know.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

So, yeah, I'm just, we were just talking with friends last night about how both my husband and I are taking breaks from the news. Like you just, and then we feel guilty about it, but also just for our mental health. Like I can't be that hyper fixated on everything because that just is not helpful. So it's, I don't know, we talk about this all the time whenever we record, like how are you trying to make sense of the deluge of garba? And it's just very.

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

Hard.

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

then there's like local things happening that are very real and there are things that can be done about those very local things, and that feels like a better place to put my energy and time.

Mandy:

Yes. But we are gonna get, we do have a plan. Of what we want to do next,

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

which we're gonna talk about. But I also realize that we have not wrapped up what we were talking about before,

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

which is all of Trump's women,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

It's so painful that I'm just like, I can't, I can't give any more of my mind space to these people, but they continually keep showing up on our screens. It's like they're becoming more and more central.

katy:

I was gonna say. It's like it's impossible to keep up because I'm even thinking of Christie Nome and like her escalation of things. It just, it's like the minute, even if we recorded this podcast every day, we wouldn't be able to keep up with the escalation of horrors and I, I'm, I'm pronouncing that horrors, but I think you could use another word that sounds much more like that. But it just, it's impossible to keep up. That's basically just all it is.

Mandy:

this little like quote on an Instagram meme that said, the first time I heard about Christie Nome, it was her admitting to killing her dog, and it's only gone downhill from there.

katy:

It's so true.

Mandy:

how

katy:

I cannot

Mandy:

horrifying thing about this

katy:

That's what I mean about space and time. It's like, oh, we were at this really horrible spot and then I turn around and that spot is like 72 miles away and I'm like, wait, what? That used to be the new low. Where, what's this now? Where are we now?

Mandy:

I know,

katy:

I, it's so disorienting. So, yes. I feel that. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

like Pam Bondy, who we did talk about all over the place

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

like my son spends. Way too much time watching, other people play video games on YouTube these videos are interrupted by commercials all of the time.

katy:

Okay.

Mandy:

swear to you, half of the commercials are Pam Bondy on the TV talking about how like if you are illegal and if you're breaking the law, you will not get away with it. They are coming for you.

katy:

You know what's wild? I think that is really interesting about. Thinking of where they're buying ad space. And it doesn't surprise me that it would be on like, dude, bro, video streaming YouTube channels. Like that makes sense. I was on a work trip recently and I don't ever watch tv. We don't, we just watch like. Shows on streaming, and so commercials are just not something that come across my like

Mandy:

Existence.

katy:

My existence. Even my kids like, we'll go to a hotel and they're, or like. My in-laws will be at a hotel. We'll go visit them or something and the TV will be on and commercials will be playing. And my kids are absolutely fascinated. They're like this, I wanna watch this show. What is this? They, they want, they're like, so invested. And that makes me nervous. They're like little baby wild animals that have been raised in captivity and then are gonna be put out in the wild and just immediately eaten because they've never been exposed to any threat or danger. They have no awareness of advertisements, you know, I need to beef up their, their skills at being able to interpret that and like know when they're being marketed to. But anyway, there, so I was in a hotel lobby and there it was, the TV was on, and the local news. Like it was a local news program and so this, these commercials were playing and it was like mattress commercial or whatever, just like the boring, normal stuff. And then it was a commercial, but this was Christie Nome. And it was like, I am, you know, thanks to our wonderful president that we're cracking down immigration. And it was one of those like, we're coming from you, like we're coming for you. Get out commercials. And I was like. What the actual fuck is happening right now. Like, how is this a commercial that the, like, how is this even legal? Like I was so confused and weirded out and just, it just felt so strange. And then I, you know, like put it on the list of like weird, strange things that I have a lot of questions and concerns about, honestly,

Mandy:

like fear and terrorizing. Of immigrant groups and I think about all these poor, children of immigrants that are

katy:

Oh my God.

Mandy:

the ones

katy:

Oh my God.

Mandy:

and like it just seems so mean. So much of it is

katy:

It's so, it is, so it's all. Cruelty based. I mean that that is what it, it's like it, I know we've talked about this word before, but the idea of macropolitics like that just, it is a politics based on fear, cruelty and death,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

And that's the foundation of it. So that's where we get this. It's wild.

Mandy:

Yeah. The only other one that I wanted to bring up that we had gone over is when we talked about Trump's initial appointee for surgeon General being Jeanette, nwa,

katy:

Oh, yeah,

Mandy:

and

katy:

yeah. Yeah.

Mandy:

now she's just like. Off the table, they, where they withdrew her nomination and who they replaced it with. So first of all, why that happened, there's not a lot of details on except for that. People started questioning I. OTs credentials because apparently on her LinkedIn, she lists that she got her MD from the University of Arkansas, but that's not true.

katy:

God.

Mandy:

she went to school at the American University of the Caribbean in St. Martin.

katy:

Okay.

Mandy:

did complete her residency at U of A, but it's like very, sleazy, I guess, I dunno

katy:

Like shady. There's something shady.

Mandy:

did not, she did not get her medical degree from there. Like you can say you

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

there,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

but

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

your medical degree from the American University of the Caribbean, which fine

katy:

Right, but just say that

Mandy:

but don't lie about it. So they thought that was gonna be a problem during your confirmation.

katy:

honestly, the fact that she does actually have a medical degree from anywhere is such a huge benefit to anything. Like that's how low the bar is. It's like, oh, but she is an actual medical trained doctor.

Mandy:

But here's the thing. So the person that she was replaced with, Casey means does technically have a medical degree. She went to Stanford Medical School. Great

katy:

Okay.

Mandy:

but she never finished her residency and never practiced as a physician.

katy:

What's her?

Mandy:

during her residency she just got very disillusioned by the American medical system, which, same babe?

katy:

so.

Mandy:

I am. I get, I get it. Like, and so she just quit in her residency and then focused on becoming basically this influencer, which, she's most well known for a book she wrote that came out in the last couple of years I think called Good Energy. And I will fully admit, I downloaded it on Audible before she became very well known. And before she definitely, before she was nominated for this position and more came out about her views. And I've, I haven't finished it. I have listened to a lot of it and I'm not Some of her basic premises, like lot of her stuff is just rooted in that we have all this metabolic dysfunction in individuals due to like the horrific diets and like sedentary lifestyle that we

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

tend to live, and that is like a root cause of chronic disease, which is true.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

there's, you can't really find fault in that line of argument.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

And it would be so nice if that was more of a focus of medical education because it is not like there is not, you may get like your lecture one day in school about nutrition

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

a focus of medical education whatsoever. Definitely not a focus when you're treating people, especially not in the er, legitimately, we have been told to not even tell people that their problems could be due to their weight because people get offended and then they write

katy:

Mm

Mandy:

So if they come in with knee pain or uncontrolled diabetes or whatever, like

katy:

mm.

Mandy:

literally the powers that be don't even want you to bring up weight as part of that problem'cause it's offensive. So there's a huge problem. I, I totally agree on that. When it comes to where she kind of got disillusioned with the American medical system, but then she goes off the rails on so many things, like somehow that goes into where she then ends up endorsing the health benefits of raw milk and.

katy:

No.

Mandy:

Yes. has said that birth control pills are overprescribed and signal a disrespect for human life. And I'm like, no. Why? But why? Why can't you just stick a really legitimate argument that has a lot to it that could go, you know. A lot of places and actually help people and then you have to go to this bullshit. And then she also calls the vaccine schedule for children insane

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

mandates are criminal.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

so no.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Like

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

from, we got rid of a woman fibbed a little bit on her medical education training

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

who's not even a real doctor

katy:

am so curious why with the first nominee, like given. The massive heaps of bullshit around every person in this administration. Why that would nick her in any way. You know what I'm saying? Like that's holding her to such a quaint, antiquated standard that nobody else seems to give two shits about in this administration. Like why would that matter?

Mandy:

There

katy:

It may

Mandy:

There must be something else behind it,

katy:

right.

Mandy:

gotta be something we don't know. Because we, when we talked about her, there's something about her brother-in-law has been in Trump's sphere for a long time and does stuff for

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

he's actually like, he's the un appointee now. I don't know if there's some family stuff going on or

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

other dirt. They didn't want dredged up. Like who knows, but that's what they said. But you're totally right. Like to attack her credentials like that when

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

all of

katy:

Or to get or to, or if people are raising critiques, it's like, why would they care either? It just doesn't seem like any of that matters in any other

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

circumstances. So that is a curious thing.

Mandy:

influence too, because Casey means was an

katy:

Mm

Mandy:

to RFK on his presidential nomination. And so

katy:

Okay.

Mandy:

he's the health secretary, maybe he was like, no,

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

I

katy:

I want this person.

Mandy:

And when Trump was questioned about the nomination. basically people are like, but do you know she's not even an actual doctor. His response was basically like, well, Robert likes her and he said she was gonna be good. So it's

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Trump doesn't know Jack shit about her

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Sure, do whatever you want, Robert.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

that happened. So, but she's also not, she has not been confirmed yet. There's still not even a hearing on the books for her confirmation. So we'll see how all that goes. But then I was like. How are we six months into this? And we don't have even scheduled, but apparently that's not that big of a thing to not have that nailed down because one of Obama's nominees, Vivek Murthy, took like 17 months to get through

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

I guess so,

katy:

Oh geez.

Mandy:

weird. I don't

katy:

It is. I don't understand it either. Well, that's interesting. I mean, I think what's, like this to me is the reasons that we should not be cutting budgets for science research right now. The way that all the budgets are being slashed for all different kinds of research projects, science is, constantly uncovering new things. I'm reading this book right now that I love so much. It's so well written and it's super fascinating. It's called The Light Eaters and it's about cutting edge plant science and what they're finding out about plants. That's really, really fascinating. And it's also just a like, the woman who's writing it is a science writer. She, that's her beat for a really long time. And so just kind of writing about the nature of scientists themselves and how science tends to be super conservative. Not in a political sense, but very unwilling to. Shift what is considered common sense about things until they have a preponderance of evidence to say yes, in fact this other thing is right and just the limits of that, but also the benefits of that being the approach to science. And it's a beautiful book if you wanna have your mind blown. I texted a friend and I was like. I have not been reading this book high, but I feel like I might as well be because I keep having these thoughts and I'm like, man, this is amazing. It's just, it really is incredible. I've always loved trees. I think they're amazing. It is just a really fascinating thing about just how incredible plants are and how they work. But a lot of it like with this one chapter, this is, I'm so far afield right now, but I. Swear, I'm making a connection. This one chapter is about this vine that can change itself to mimic the plants around it, to the point where it can change how many frons it has on its leaves and whether it has thorns or not. Like it can, it can literally like. Mutate enough to mimic something so well, and it's not something that's evolved over generations. It's like it can literally do it in like a month with a plant it's never met before, which is, they said it's the equivalent of like a human hung out with a rhino and then developed like a horn to look like a rhino. That's the level of like wildness that's happening. And so one of the theories about how that is happening is that. It has to do with the bacteria that live inside the plants and the way that they turn genes on or off, and that maybe the bacteria that live inside this vine are really good at. Getting information from the bacteria that live in the other plants and then are just like programming their plant to do whatever the neighbor plant is doing from these bacteria. And there it links to a lot of cutting edge science about humans and our biomes and the way that the bacteria that live inside of us actually have like way more control and power over our lives than a lot of other things. And that our nutrition. Related to how we are feeding the bacteria or not feeding back, like it, it's all connected and just how this is like under studied and we're just starting to learn more about this. All of this is to say that if you have, like I, I am curious about the world and I know enough to know that we know so little about how things work, but there are things we do know. Yeah, that is real. And I still do believe in like trying to figure things out in some kind of systematic, thoughtful way. And I don't think that always means like in super sterile labs, this book gets into that too about like all different kinds of ways to do science. But that still, they all are science in some ways. So when you have people who, I, to your point that there are these like, Hey, the, this medical system is, is a hot mess. Yes. We have limited science on X, Y, and Z. Like, correct. I'm with, I'm there for that. But then to have the next. Point that you connect to it to be like, therefore let's do this thing. That is where I fall off. I have a lot of questions I am curious about a lot. I am humble enough to know that we don't know everything and that new evidence is emerging all of the time and, and yet like. I don't understand the conclusions that some of these folks are reaching, and I will also call massive bullshit on some of them when I know that they actually don't believe what they're saying

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

and that it's to just profit

Mandy:

They're

katy:

some way.

Mandy:

They're just

katy:

They're grifting. That's exactly right. It's so disingenuous and so. Insidious that I get really angry. You know, you're full of shit.

Mandy:

That's why I get so pissed off about the whole trad wife bullshit thing

katy:

Your criticisms are

Mandy:

like it,

katy:

the grind culture is not working for anyone. Yes. Like I am with you on all of these things and I like freshly baked bread. Great. That's yes.

Mandy:

But you also see how it draws people in.

katy:

A hundred percent

Mandy:

like, I

katy:

disaffected. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

And

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

they just end up going down these rabbit holes with them and like buying full into it. And that's where I don't get it. I'm

katy:

Yes, yes.

Mandy:

How do you not see that this is taken like a sharp turn?

katy:

A sharp turn and that the person leading you off that cliff is themselves not going off that cliff, and they're making a shit ton of money off of people taking that sharp turn. Like that's the part where I'm like, wake up. Like I don't disagree that there aren't these fundamental problems, but why are we following these assholes who. Aren't themselves doing these things. They're like, we, I mean, there's so much. We always say this, that there's like a million years we could do this podcast and it would never run out of content.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

But these, like, there's one influencer, I cannot think of her name right now, but she's all about like a paleo lifestyle and this, analysis that I was seeing was trying to break down her arguments. It was basically teaching people how to use logic to dismantle and recognize what it is that this influencer is doing and how they're trying to take these scientific nuggets and then take these hard turns to make you think that what they're saying. Is true. And then how they're like seducing you into buying all of their marketing and packaging you their products and selling and it just as a way to make money. It's absolutely a grift.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

so that should be another like white women. Grifters could be like a whole other

Mandy:

Oh boy.

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

some candidates?

katy:

So many. Oh my God.

Mandy:

maybe that'll be the next thing. But we

katy:

Okay.

Mandy:

got to do the moms. We have to talk about the moms.

katy:

Wait, before we get into the mom intro, speaking that she is a mom. So I guess this is someone who kind of connects all of these dots. I just wanna note the fact that since we have last talked that Joni Ernst was at a town hall and made this comment that. The people were really upset and frustrated about Medicaid cuts and somebody is like, they're kind of, you can watch the video online. Somebody kind of shouts out from the back, like, people are going to die.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

And her reply was, well, we, we'll, we are all going to die. So I guess like being from I, I live in Iowa. You grew up in Iowa. This is how we have known and loved each other for most of our lives. What, when you heard that, what was your. Response or thoughts?

Mandy:

I mean, from her I was like, standard, you know, like not, she's an evil human beings, so, but it's just. So misses the point like, yeah, we're all gonna die, but that doesn't mean we go out and like all jump off a cliff today or like that you do things that are going to speed that along.

katy:

Right, right. Like disproportionately speed that along for vulnerable groups of people. That's the macropolitics of it. Like if we're all gonna die, then what matters about anything actually, like if that's your conclusion, like why bother with literally anything, then

Mandy:

her follow up video,

katy:

well I've got, yes, I did see that all, which also I've like. This is what I mean about being so disoriented, because that one thing was bad enough and I was still trying to process that when she posts this quote apology video, which is just absolute sarcasm and kind of her attempt to be like trolley you, like cool, a cool troll, I guess. And so she.

Mandy:

a cemetery, right?

katy:

Yes, it's like a first person cam, like she's walking through what looks to be a cemetery

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

at one point she says I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the auditorium understood that yes, we are all going to perish from this earth. So I apologize and I'm really, really glad that I did not have to bring up the subject of the tooth fairy as well. It's so like, I just am so. Oh, perplexed at how it, it is that really what she think, like I'm just trying to make sense of like, does she really believe what she's saying in this like sarcastic apology video that does she really believe that that person who yelled that out

Mandy:

Didn't

katy:

didn't

Mandy:

people

katy:

think people are gonna like, do you actually think that, or do you like I that you cannot actually believe that? What, what is going on? What is happening? It's just, it's just so disorienting. I like, I've had massive problems with this senator for such a long time, partly because she, herself is a victim. She has written about this in a book about being a survivor of domestic violence and a survivor of sexual assault, and then goes on to support a president who has been. You know, convicted not of, but of like, oh yeah, there's a reality there that this is what he did like there. And then also supported Brett Kavanaugh and also supported like it's just so wild to me that someone can, can set aside. I just, I cannot make heads or tails of it. And so this happens and it like, I really cannot. Understand a, a politics that's based on getting people to care less about each other.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

That's, that is what is happening. And I am, I cannot understand just like from a, like an ethical point of view, how you get yourself there, but also like why that seems like the right way to go. Also does not make sense to me. So I'm just, I'm really struggling. And of course, she's a mom, she's a daughter who's in her twenties. And, and that, I think that's, she's the, she's the first woman to get elected to represent Iowa in the federal government. She's the first woman in federal government to have been a veteran who served in combat. Like there are, she is this kind of nexus of like, oh, the like, like a way to use her motherhood as a vehicle for these politics, but it just is so the opposite of how I have understood the role of mothering. It just is the opposite of that. It's like for me, if I had to define mothering, it would be helping to care for people and getting them to care for each other. That's literally how I would describe it. Like at its core, and this is a politics that's like care less. Do less caring.

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

So I don't know what that's, it's like the anti mothering politics,

Mandy:

for it's so, and I mean, we're gonna get into all of that. I mean, it does transition very well into what we're gonna talk about next because there is something like protective in isolationism, I think. I feel like that's where their

katy:

I guess, of like whoever you can draw that circle around.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Then that like it's us versus them, I guess. But it just like, I can't even figure out who is in the US circle at this point. Like I, that's what I'm struggling to figure out. You keep drawing that circle tighter and tighter, and then who's left in it even.

Mandy:

Yeah, no, for sure. Well, we'll see. Hopefully this book is

katy:

Hopefully we don't see. Oh my God.

Mandy:

I mean,

katy:

By the way, this plant book has an answer to this also, like I cannot rave enough about the book, the Light Eaters, but there's plant research that shows when you plant that, that plants have personalities even, and when you the way that they've been genetically modifying plants is to basically. They assumed that if they bl bred the most aggressive plants that like kind of seek out all the sunshine over any other plants and compete really hard against other plants, that's what they were breeding for. But what they found is that actually leads to lower yields, to lower crop yields. That what you want, that what leads to the biggest bounty are plants that engage in mutual aid.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

you do, there are plant, like that is a plant personality and that is something that some plants do really, really well. And then there's super interesting research about plants engaging in mutual aid with their kin that they're genetically related to more than like plants that they're not directly. Like there's really fascinating stuff, but I think like that there is something about life, just any kind of life and. What helps life thrive and what does not help life thrive. And so that even just at like a basic existence level, I don't understand, like life doesn't thrive when you are like aggressively competing to stamp everything else out. So I don't even understand it from like an evolutionary point of view actually.

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

Anyway, that's where I'm at. At a like a level of like. Physics and existence. I'm trying to understand, but yes. Let's, let's shift into the season. We started, God knows how long ago about motherhood and its relationship to settler colonialism, and I know we're gonna get into that more. But talk about where we're gonna start with this. Dive into motherhood.

Mandy:

So we're gonna start with a book by Elizabeth Gillespie McCray called

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Massive Resistance. And I know we have had this on our radar for a long time because this book has

katy:

A long time.

Mandy:

bookshelf for at least the past couple of years. I mean, it was. First printed in 2018, so, and now we're in 2025. I don't know how that happened.

katy:

Oh my God. You just said 2018. I was like, oh. So two years ago, I literally just thought in my head, that was two years ago. That's how disoriented I am. Yes.

Mandy:

stuck in 2020 forever. We've never gotten over it.

katy:

Our brains broke. Yeah. Yes.

Mandy:

so it's called Mothers of Massive Resistance, and it's particularly the subtitle is White Women and the Politics of White Supremacy,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

is just right up our alley. It's basically what we do.

katy:

This is catnip. Whoever came up with this title was probably like, there's gonna be these two girls who gab about White Lady Shittiness. Let's target market to them.

Mandy:

So the whole book is basically focusing, I think it focuses on four different women and kind of their activism in the space of reinforcing white supremacy through like white womanhood and mothering. Talks about in the introduction about how a lot of our. History that maybe what the most of us know about, like women in politics either focuses on the sixties and seventies with feminism

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

back at the time of Brown versus the Board of Education School desegregation in the 1950s and the black and white pictures that we've all seen of like the white women protesting and screaming and like shouting horrific things at these poor. Little children of color trying to integrate schools,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

and the whole history of school integration. But her basic thesis is that this has actually been going on for so much longer than that.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

1950s reaction to the Brown Supreme Court ruling was rooted in generations of white mothering before that.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

And we've talked about it even like in the way that white women were involved in public school education curriculum after the Civil War to reframe,

katy:

of the Confederacy, right? Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

And reframing public education after that to make all of that same. Less horrific than it was. I don't know, some way to

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Set up all of the Confederate generals as like heroes and all

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

So we've talked about some of that,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

of in to how integral white, white women have been politics of white supremacy and segregation and how all of that. At the individual level, like in these community levels then translates into national politics.

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

and how it has been a very strong thread for a long time and it's, it's really interesting to think about because like white women do fly under the radar, I think.

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

On their involvement in all of this. Like we blame white men for a lot of things. And don't get me wrong, they are up there

katy:

No.

Mandy:

white women, it's even like a, I don't know. There just seems to be something meaner about.

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

Women's involvement in this? Just something more like, because it's more personal, I guess. Because it does seem more like on a, taking that role of nurturing and turning it into

katy:

corrupting it. Perverting it. Well, and I think too, there's. Like again, I'm also not letting cis hat rich white men off the line do not interpret it like this, but there's a part of me that kind of feels like, gosh, you just have no way in personally to understanding, I know you can, and I want you to get there, but I feel like there's a certain expectation that white women are knowingly. Because they are experiencing misogyny or sexism or the patriarchy. Like they're, they should be in solidarity in all these ways. But they aren't. And I say they when really we should say we. I don't know. I always wonder about our pronoun use whenever we talk about all this history, but it's like, you should know better. It's almost like I expect, again, I'm not letting maga. Like Trump off the hook,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

has never pretended to be anything else but like an utter,

Mandy:

Trash

katy:

like absolute like empty void. Right? Like that's, and so I'm almost like I have more disrespect for the people who I really do think know better, but are making this bargain knowingly. It's like a special place in my heart to hate them, you know, because like they should know better. So I, there's something about that it makes me think of when we talk to Stephanie Jones Rogers about her book with white women who enslaved people and just like the absolute, creativity that they exhibited in their cruelty and the ways that because of the patriarchal ways that history has been written, that got erased or hidden or attributed and ascribed to men in a way that let women kind of like sneak, sneak by.

Mandy:

Which is a lot of what her introduction focuses on is that like the way that we have focused on these histories have let a lot of these women off the hook. in doing that, like we miss, basically it's like another plant analogy we miss, like where the weeds are left in the garden.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

we focus on this national level of things where it's like the separated drinking fountains or like the Rosa Parks sitting on the bus

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

things being torn down, which is wonderful, like great parts of our history, but we act like that was a victory that then we.

katy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

as a nation. It is like we conquered that

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

when in reality we didn't at all, and

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

seeing that however

katy:

Oh my God,

Mandy:

later.

katy:

we, now that I've read this book and love it so much, I feel like I am only gonna talk about plants from now on out, but I have this knot weed in the backyard that is out of control and it. It's like the most impossible weed to kill and you think you've killed it. And I swear to God this, it's like a tuber and it just goes underground for like feet and feet, and then pops up like 40 feet away from where you thought you had contained things. That's how I feel like it is with white women. Supremacy is like, oh, you can put down three layers of. Weed fabric and like glug roundup all over this place and it's, they're gonna pop up, they're gonna find a way to pop up and you're not gonna understand where or when or how. But like to think that it's gone is super naive.

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah. Even when, I mean, and this what this book we'll get into, like even when we're getting national victories on, you know, getting rid of Jim Crow laws, the Voting Rights

katy:

Sure.

Mandy:

school

katy:

Sure.

Mandy:

These women who were so like. Vocally against all of that did not go away.

katy:

Right. They didn't change their minds. They didn't realize like, oh, we've been wrong.

Mandy:

They didn't

katy:

Right,

Mandy:

interactions in their communities.

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

just became more locally based, but in a way that it just continued to imbue like the psyche

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

the generations they were raising.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

continues. still continues on, like, and, the plant thing is perfect with it because she ends her introduction saying white women were and remain segregation's constant gardeners.

katy:

Oh my God.

Mandy:

so excited to, I'm not excited, but I am

katy:

Well, I, but like eager to learn more

Mandy:

I

katy:

about that,

Mandy:

is our point, when we have talked about all

katy:

I.

Mandy:

whatever we have focused on in the past, like learning these histories is a way to recognize the way that they are still

katy:

Active. Right,

Mandy:

that we can call it out for what it is

katy:

right,

Mandy:

that it does have very, very deep roots. And then. Try to mobilize in a way against it. This is the thing that's

katy:

right.

Mandy:

that we have touched on in the past is that like these types of white women have been so effective.

katy:

So, and I don't, there, it's hard to say that because I am mad about it. Like I, in a, in a, I'm mad about it ethically, but I'm also mad about it in a competitive way. Like, God damn it,

Mandy:

better

katy:

are more effective on Exactly. Like I, but here's what I've thought about this a lot actually. We, yes, there's like a competition, but we're operating with very different rules and tools because if you don't give a shit about being inclusive or like not repeating the same mistakes, that frees up you, you just got like 56 yards ahead because you don't have to like, you don't care. So you are not worried about, like, that just

Mandy:

You

katy:

eliminates a lot of.

Mandy:

may affect

katy:

No.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Or if like the meeting that you're organizing is accessible to every, you don't care. That's the point. So it's like, there it, there are ways that if you are working for liberation and justice and sovereignty, that task is already set up to be just a more complex task than if you're working towards like supremacy and genocide and hatred. It's the difference between like your task is to destroy this thing and your task is to build this thing. That we have different tasks actually. And so if they have a steam roller, it's like just keep running the steam roller a bunch of times over this place and like you're being successful. It doesn't, it's not like it takes that much versus not only are we trying to build this fragile, beautiful thing, we also are trying to do it in a way that prevents the steam rollers from getting it. Like that's just inherently like a way harder

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

You know?

Mandy:

absolutely. I think that is for sure the major prong of it. And then I also think the steam roller crew is also run by usually very privileged women.

katy:

They have a lot of money

Mandy:

They have,

katy:

Yes,

Mandy:

have

katy:

exactly.

Mandy:

And the rest of us are like,

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

also still trying to feed our families and like survive day to day. And I'm not even talking about us'cause we are also very

katy:

No. Exactly.

Mandy:

Other women that we would want to like, bring on this journey and get their input and like make sure we're including like they're trying to survive.

katy:

Well, here's what I will say too. Oh, for sure. What's amazing to me is like those are often the women who are, who actually are what's like, we don't have to organize shit to bring people into. They're already organizing. If anything, it's like, how can we. Plug into movements. And by we, I mean like

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

white women who have money and like what, you know, add to the list of things that it's not even about us. Like I think if anything over the years that we've been doing this is learning how to be in solidarity, learning how to take orders and listen to, and then just direct resources to whatever the, the people who are being most affected want. To have happen. Like that's what makes sense. And I know that that organizing is happening, and I know that that's, but it, but it, you're right, that it, it's like not only for the, the people at the heart experiencing the oppression, like who are even figuring out ways to still organize and do things like it, it does take so much more, and the risks are so much higher, like to. Or to, to try to be committed to that. In a like police state system, you are risking so much more, especially if you have any marginalized identities. Like, and then if you are like a rich white lady with a lot of time on your hands, like not only do you have ample resources, but if anything, if anybody does like call you out or there's like some consequence, like what's the consequence?

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

I don't even know what it would be

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

point to the white woman who advocated for all this horrible stuff who faced any sort of real consequence. You know, like, I'm struggling to think of one. It's just yeah. I It's

Mandy:

deck is stacked

katy:

just the deck. The deck, exactly. The deck is very uneven

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

for sure.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Mm.

Mandy:

Well, that's where we're going. So

katy:

Hmm, great. I can't wait. So

Mandy:

to talk about.

katy:

yes, it would be awesome if people would want to get a copy of this book the Mothers of Massive Resistance and read along with us. I think our plan is just to kind of take it chapter by chapter

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

ideally I would love to reach out to the author to see if she would wanna talk with us. That would be amazing.

Mandy:

I was remembering when we were talking to Stephanie Jones Rogers, I think it was her, who said she's friends with

katy:

I think she mentioned it, Ann Hassan, Kwame Jeffries, who we talked to also mentioned, and I think that the world of historians who study this stuff is not very big. I would love to be able to pick her brain and just hear about what brought her to this research even. I'm always really interested in why people have questions about this in the first place and want to notice it, and what the reaction has been to them wanting to poke around in these spaces. I'm

Mandy:

input on how she sees all of this in the context of our current politics and.

katy:

mm-hmm.

Mandy:

What's going on right now, so that'll be good. I like

katy:

Well, I can't wait.

Mandy:

episodes.

katy:

I think it helps keep us like more, it, it holds us to, to a more even march through material. So we'll be Yeah, I, I'll say we promise, but who knows anymore. We'll, uh, Okay. that Sounds good. I'll talk to you soon.

Mandy:

okay. Bye.

katy:

Bye.