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Book Discussion: Mothers of Massive Resistance Ep 1

• Mandy Griffin

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The Persistent Legacy of White Women's Role in Segregation and Resistance

In this episode, hosts Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell initiate a conversation on their new book focus, 'Mothers of Massive Resistance' by Elizabeth Gillespie McRae, which explores the pivotal role of white women in maintaining white supremacy. They highlight the author's background, the central themes of the book, and how it reveals the active and intentional efforts by white women in various societal arenas such as social welfare, public education, and popular culture. The hosts reflect on the relevance of these historical insights to current events and stress the importance of local-level activism in combating entrenched systems of oppression.

00:00 Welcome and Introduction
00:31 Personal Struggles and Small Wins
02:31 Travel and Current Events
04:03 Generational Reflections
04:38 Podcast Purpose and New Book Introduction
06:04 Listener Engagement and Community Building
10:12 Author Background and Book Details
13:52 Introduction to Segregation's Constant Gardener
14:24 The Plant Metaphor of White Supremacy
15:42 Four Areas of Focus in the Book
17:10 White Women's Role in Segregation
19:54 The Threat of White Apathy
23:44 Historical Parallels to Modern Politics
32:54 The Importance of Local Level Actions
34:01 Conclusion and Next Steps

Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.

Mandy:

Hi. We are back.

katy:

I am so beyond proud of us that

Mandy:

Look,

katy:

recording on a weekly basis now, and that has not happened for so long. It's

Mandy:

I know.

katy:

The lowest bar maybe we could set for ourselves, but I need a win today. Everything has been going wrong. It's been like one of those days where the kind of. Normal, catastrophes of just living, especially parenting with two kids is just unfolding. But because. Of my hormones right now, I'm just absolutely in despair about

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

just paralyzed with depression, about the most basic things. So for instance, was like, you know what I'm gonna do? The morning was hard. I'm in such a funk, I'm gonna treat myself to this gluten-free, dairy-free gelato. I found.

Mandy:

What a treat.

katy:

Oh my God. It's like a

Mandy:

Sounds great.

katy:

Caramel. No, it

Mandy:

Okay?

katy:

amazing. Legitimately really good. Who doesn't want a caramel toffee? Like it just, and that's hard to

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

vegan. So I

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

this is gonna work for me. I bought two. Pints actually, because it looked so good. And so I was like, this is gonna be what turns my day around. And I went to open the jar, could not get it open, like to save my life. So I literally was like, ah, knock it into the sink. Good thing I have a second one and go to get the second one out. Can't get that lid open either. And I almost sat on the kitchen floor and cried. had to pull it together like I'm a grown woman. This is not an actual problem. This is when you know,

Mandy:

No, it's like perimenopause gives you the resilience of a toddler.

katy:

Exactly.

Mandy:

nothing. I can't.

katy:

I have so much empathy for my five-year-old right now. I'm feeling him. I get it. But I did, uh, end up like. I honestly, it, it's funny you mentioned the resilience of a toddler because I channeled an Arthur episode in which he deals with his anger in a healthy way. I calmed down and waited a little bit because I thought maybe if it warms up, the lid will pop open. And sure enough it did. And then I did have some of it and it was delicious and it did kind of help turn my day around. And now

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

and this is the highlight of my day

Mandy:

good. Well, I was just saying that I've been traveling all day and got back and I have nothing to complain about

katy:

No, it's

Mandy:

other,

katy:

That's

Mandy:

other than flying. But you know, everything went well and I'm always nervous that it won't. So got through and

katy:

I

Mandy:

everything is good.

katy:

about it.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

nope. Nope. It's all, it's all good. And I was listening to, during my chores this morning, a podcast that was talking about the primaries in the New York mayoral race, and I'm super

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

excited about Zoran Momani and just

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

about him and his wife and I. It's like this one little speck of hope, I think, in the news cycle. So I was excited about that.

Mandy:

Yeah, we'll see what comes out. I mean, I expect all of the billionaires to try anything they can to keep him from winning the actual race, but I'm not sure if New York will still show up, we'll see what happens. It's amazing.

katy:

Isn't that wild? His

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

like 20, 28, something like in her late twenties, and I was like, oh my God, in my late twenties, that is not a stage I was equipped to be on

Mandy:

Yeah, no.

katy:

No way. So just so much appreciation for. The generation below us

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

I think the people who are really involved in politics, who are that age, are tremendously inspiring.

Mandy:

As long as

katy:

there's good news.

Mandy:

we don't ruin it. So we'll see. We'll see what happens.

katy:

I know we're not the boomers. Like what,

Mandy:

No.

katy:

we, do we have a name?

Mandy:

We're like on the cusp. I think we're technically still Gen X, aren't we? But like right on the cusp.

katy:

Gen X should get blamed for more than we are. Like we actually maybe should be lumped in with the boomers at this, you know?

Mandy:

I don't know what the boomers, maybe like the people who are. More solidly in Gen X than us. I think

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

just get a pass.

katy:

Well, you know how I feel

Mandy:

We're,

katy:

that. No one should get a pass,

Mandy:

uh,

katy:

white women, which is what our whole podcast is about.

Mandy:

yes,

katy:

it, I

Mandy:

no passes.

katy:

I mean, no, maybe someone's joining us for the first time on this episode, but we are lifelong friends. We are both white women ourselves, and we are dedicated to not giving. Us a pass

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

the book we are starting today. I am so excited just from what we've read thus far about it. The historian is Elizabeth, McRay. Am I saying that right?

Mandy:

I think so.

katy:

hope so.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

who in, even in our introduction, just explaining. Why she wrote this book, mothers of Massive Resistance, and trying to really challenge the myths about white women or the way that history, that historians have given them a pass or they've kind of slipped through the cracks. Um, that it just, it made so much sense to me given everything we've ever read or learned on this podcast. And I'm so excited to dive into this

Mandy:

Yes. Yeah, and we have done books before, like we were saying in last week's episode. We like to go through these. It gives us some accountability. It gives us a structure. it's a lot of interesting history to delve into, and we get to take advantage of these amazing historians that have done all of this really hard work because

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

it's not well documented. It's not something that's like the story that's generally gets told. So it is a lot of, deep dives into this. we did have someone send in a, Message on our podcast website, and she just wanted some more information. for anyone who has not listened to our previous, book reading, delving into, it's not technically a book club. We discuss it with each other. We hope to get, Elizabeth Gillespie McCray on so that we can discuss it with her, but we invite everyone. to get the book, get the physical book, get it on Audible, whatever way you can, take it in and read along with your thoughts definitely send us messages if you have, any thoughts about it or things that you think we should do. a woman named Marine from Redding, Pennsylvania sent a message and said. I'm a teacher and I found your podcast through readings and trainings with Paul Gorski in which Katie's work was highlighted.

katy:

that's

Mandy:

from Mark, Katie, and just wondering how it was going to work. So we are going to try to do weekly episodes that will be posted, but don't worry if you can't keep up or we can't keep up, they will just show up.

katy:

They will pop up. We will get through. I do know that the last few times that we've done books that there have been listeners who've taken it upon themselves to organize a little book club in their community and find Other friends, either people who listen to the podcast or just other people who might be interested in this book. They don't have to listen to this. That's okay. but then they created their own little book club community, which I think is a great idea. I love, inviting people to send in questions for us or, things about the book that piqued their interest or that they would want to hear us talk about, especially if we're able to get. the author on or others connected with this research, then we can always ask those questions of our guests too. yes, I love the idea of community around this it is, in my opinion, one of the reasons I love doing this podcast with you. I would probably nerd out on this history just on my own, but it is so much more fun to do it with somebody and have at least one other person to talk to about what you're reading and what it's making you think about what it's making you question and wonder. So, find a gaggle. There should be a name for, a group. You know, what would we be a haggle?

Mandy:

Yeah, I'm trying to think of the anti Karens or something.

katy:

I was laughing the other day thinking about, you know, I've told you before about our family friend, who's a white man in his sixties,

Mandy:

Oh yeah.

katy:

the last demographic I would ever think would enjoy this podcast. And he loves it so much and is always on my case about when we're gonna record again. And his name's Kevin, so maybe we can call them the Kevins.

Mandy:

There you go.

katy:

or like a coven, but it's a coven and your

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

you know?

Mandy:

Invite the men along too.'cause we also have our dear other family friend Steve who,

katy:

Yes,

Mandy:

Karen says is our number one fan.

katy:

maybe our demographic of listeners is actually post-retirement white men

Mandy:

Great.

katy:

and

Mandy:

Hi Steve. We love you.

katy:

It's so weird, but great.

Mandy:

Love it.

katy:

that they're in the world. yes. And so yeah, let us know if you are. a group together, send us a note. We'd love to hear from people.

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

for reaching out.

Mandy:

Yeah, and you can, find us on the podcast website, which should be connected on whatever platform you're using. We also have an Instagram, which we have not updated in eons, but I did on the last episode we put up. So if you are on Instagram, you can look up our Dirty Laundry podcast and follow us there. You can send us messages on there. I will try to remember to check it and. If we don't respond back, just keep pounding us. It's the hormones, it's the life, it's everything. we will see it eventually. So, yeah.

katy:

I

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

that we are, an exceptionally high quality, well researched podcast that is not sponsored and not our full-time job. So you'll get it when you get it, is

Mandy:

Yep. I.

katy:

the content. So, let's dive in.

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

I was trying to do a little background on the author. I don't know if

Mandy:

Oh good. No, go ahead. Take it away.

katy:

at all. But in the introduction, um, Elizabeth Gillespie McRay says that she grew up in the mountains of southwest Virginia, which I'm sure is super beautiful. to live and work in DC for several years, and part of the country is just really, really gorgeous and grew up on a family farm. And described some of her family and, grandparents they were, that it sounds like. people who just were really curious that she says they love to read, they love to talk politics, they're hard workers, and so it sounds like she just grew up in a family that was like questioning and curious and then mentions that she is a mother to two daughters, Katie and Caroline. Katie is spelled correctly with a Y so that was nice for me to see.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

and then I don't know too much more other than she. Went to the University of Georgia for her PhD. She has a couple of different master's degrees and a PhD in history from the University of Georgia I was looking at her work. I'm a former professor myself and a trained academic, trained scholar, so I jump on Google Scholar, I dunno how I could ever do any of my work without that website.

Mandy:

Mm.

katy:

grateful for it just to see other things she'd written about. And back in the nineties it looks like this is when she was a student, in the late nineties and was writing about one of her early papers was about Georgia women and the anti suffrage campaign from 1914 to

Mandy:

Oh,

katy:

which was how this podcast started.

Mandy:

yep.

katy:

our earliest episodes were about the anti suffragists.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

thought that was a cool full circle

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Um, but this book, um. Mothers of massive resistance, white women and the politics of White Supremacy was published in 2018 and won the Frederick Jackson Turner Award, which is the kind of national big book award from the organization of American historians. it's won a bunch of outstanding book awards. It's, it, yeah, I think it's, it's been highly regarded among historians, she is an associate professor at. Western Carolina University and works with the Appalachian Oral History Project, sounds like, Someone who's dedicated her career, to what we've dedicated our hobby to.

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

dedicated her career to

Mandy:

Huh?

katy:

white women's shittiness. I'm sure she doesn't use that language, but

Mandy:

No,

katy:

maybe

Mandy:

probably.

katy:

She does. We'll have to find out.

Mandy:

Yeah. I'd love to hear what she's teaching these days. Like what actual courses and materials she covers. Teaching at a place like Western Carolina University may be interesting. These, like anywhere in the country. I mean

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

in general, but especially universities in the south. I wonder what the politics of that university are. lots of things I'd love to ask her and see, Mm-hmm.

katy:

and just what woke them up, I guess. What, um, what. or relationships or, you know, what led them to even asking the questions that they ask and wanting to learn this information. that's always intriguing to me too.

Mandy:

Yeah. Well, hopefully we can get her on, we should send her an email soon.

katy:

I

Mandy:

We should plan it.

katy:

we'll, for sure. well, let's just talk about the introduction today, if that's okay. It's, titled Segregation's Constant Gardener,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

that I was raving about this plant book that I'm obsessed

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

I did tell I was running errands, over the weekend and I went to a local landscape supply. to get gravel that I needed to replace. then I went to a plant store with house plants and both of the people who helped me there, I ended up chatting with them about this book and they both ordered it while we were talking.

Mandy:

Oh my gosh.

katy:

I. The evangelist for this book, the Light Eaters. I loved that the introduction ended with this line white women were and remained segregation's, constant gardeners this plant metaphor of white supremacy being Like noxious weeds tended to by generations of women who are teaching their daughters to tend to this garden. And it has a very, very deep root system,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

like the work she's gonna reveal.

Mandy:

I also like that that analogy does make it a very active process. I. Like, it's not just this overgrowth or unattended thing, it's very purposeful. there is a lot of hard work that actually goes into it, by individuals and communities. I think that's one of the main underlying themes of this book bringing that to light, that this did not happen unintentionally.

katy:

no, it is super intentional and then it's also. micro level when,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

when you're able to look at white women. the ways and the places where they are very intentionally tending to this are so insidious. there was one spot, I'm trying to find the page where she's listing, that there's really gonna be four areas that the book will take a look at across four different women.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

And one of those areas is social welfare policy implemented at a local level. The second is public education. The third is electoral politics, where I think have tended to focus on, but they have still overlooked the role of women in that sphere. the fourth domain is popular culture. And so thinking about social welfare policy, public ed, and popular culture, those have not really been looked at that closely by. A lot of historians. she mentions the way that they're tending to this, even in, the nooks and crannies of public and private life. so it's congressional campaigns, but it's also PTA meetings. It's State and national economic policy, but it's also household budget decisions textbook debates and daycare decisions,

Mandy:

registrar's offices, like

katy:

yes.

Mandy:

wedding certificates, birth certificates, the categorization or like how they categorized race. All of that was very. Hands-on with the women who were in those roles and in those fields were mostly white women, and so they were completely integral into taking that legislation and enacting it in people's lives and making sure that it actually got carried out in the everyday activities that people were partaking in.

katy:

this line, where she says, white women were the mass in massive resistance.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

I think setting up this kind of traditional narrative that a lot of people have about the civil rights movement, you know, like starting in the 1950s and then ended in the 1960s with all these victories, like, yay. And it's, I think that super simplistic and not an accurate narrative has been more effectively challenged in the last, you know, couple of decades. even when. Historians have done a better job at talking about women. they've focused on the white women who were part of the Civil Rights movement and not the white women who were part of the resistance

Mandy:

Hmm. Hmm.

katy:

when historians have focused on the segregationists, it's very rare that women are named as segregationists, that's kind of a term that has historically been applied to. men in formal leadership roles and trying to push on that to say is a term that absolutely includes women and that we shouldn't conflate segregationists with conservatives.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

thought was super interesting in the intro. Do you remember,

Mandy:

I do remember where she talked about that, that it just let the segregationist component of it be underground,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

because it gave those women a pass, in a way to make them not seem like they were part, that they were just, oh, part of this conservative movement. put a prettier label on it, almost. Mm-hmm.

katy:

I think being able to understand people who were committed to segregation cut across ideological party lines, that it wasn't just the conservative at the time would've been the Democratic

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

was the more conservative party.

Mandy:

we get into the first chapters and see how this is interwoven at the exact same timeframe as the eugenics movement that we spent a season on and how all of these same players are like intermingling. in this eugenic and the segregation and all of these race politics and yeah, they all knew each other. They all connected, whether it was from the south to New York to California, these, different institutions were working together to uphold this white segregationist attitude throughout the country,

katy:

I thought there were a couple things I wanted to ask you about The first was on page 11, she talks about how the most significant threat to the system of segregation white women believed was the apathy of their white neighbors

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

to realize the work needed to sustain it.

Mandy:

Yeah, it's really funny that you say that,'cause I have my finger on that paragraph The exact same thing that white apathy was the most important threat to the system of racial segregation. I mean, which I think is like anything dies in apathy And so we talked about when we were starting to introduce this in our episode last week, just about how angry we are at

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

white women on the other side for being so good at what they do because. They are so good at the not letting things go part of it. Like, it's just like you will not be allowed to let this not matter to you. Kind of an attitude that they have. And they are, you know, lots of reasons we talked about for why that happens, better on that side. But yeah, I mean, I think apathy is the number one problem we face in organizing as well.

katy:

I, I did. later on in the introduction she talks about how there clearly are other threats that, especially after World War she names a faltering Democratic party and Invasive United Nations and interventionist Supreme Court, a widespread mobilization of black Southerners like there were other. Threats identified by these white women. But the original threat, surprised me because if I had to guess, I wouldn't have guessed that their one target for. Maintaining white supremacy would've been other white people who cared less about it And maybe that just reveals how naive I still am about

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

how this all works. then I set the book down and I was really thinking about like, why does that surprise me that much? And then I remembered this quote from. Martin Luther King's letter from a Birmingham jail, and I am sure you will remember this quote too.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like a pretty famous passage, but he's writing this letter and he says, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negroes great stumbling block and his stride toward freedom is not the white citizens counselor or the Ku Klux k cleaner, but the white. Moderate, who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace, which is the absence of tension to a positive peace, which is the presence of justice who constantly says, I agree with you on the goal you seek, that I cannot agree with your methods of direct action. Who paternalistic believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom, who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the ne to wait freight. More convenient season. Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection, and I just sat with that, like, maybe I'm not interpreting these sources as I should, but it struck me that. King is saying the same, like the inverse of what Mray is pointing out that these white women were saying which was the greatest threat to their goal was this mass of white people, white moderates,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like King is saying, they are the people who are actually getting in the way more than anything else, Maybe these women are saying like they're interfering with our ability to further entrench white supremacy, like they're this weird group in the middle.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

I on?

Mandy:

Yeah. the thing that conjuress for me in modern politics are all of the people who voted for Trump, but are like, oh, but I didn't mean for this. To happen, or I didn't mean for this person that I know to be affected by this. And I think it's the same attitude. It's just this moderate, like go along with things

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

understand the implications of them, and then somehow that gives you a pass on things. It's probably like the

katy:

It's almost like, the term woke that I

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

term for lots of

Mandy:

I love it.

katy:

maligned term. it's almost like the people who are awake are these. heinous white women who are tending their garden. They know what's up, they are well aware of how all this works, and they are devoting deliberate energy to maintaining it. And then the folks who are awake see that as the evil that it is,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like eugenics logic and you know, like all of the things that we critique here. And then it's this mass in the middle that. Just aren't I don't mean to call the white women who were leading mass resistance as woke, and they're not woke in the same

Mandy:

No,

katy:

I'm

Mandy:

I know what you mean.

katy:

at least they what's happening and like, I don't think the women are going to meet in this book. they're actively pulling on all these levers, so they

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

levers exist, they're trying to do something about it instead of these other women who might be their neighbors who are like, oh no, that's not how the world works. It's fair, and you just work hard and get ahead

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

is, like

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

or

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

it's like their naivete Fuels the continuation of

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

systems, even though it sounds like from what we're gonna learn about these women, that they were annoyed that they weren't getting more fuel from those people

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

in my mind, they're getting plenty from them. Like those people's apathy only really benefits, at the end of the day. I think the scorecard looks better for the white supremacists when people are apathetic than for the other side.

Mandy:

Well, because I don't think it, it doesn't take much to lead apathetic people in the direction that these women wanted to take them,

katy:

supremacy.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

the what's current. So it's one thing to maintain that system it's another to. Fundamentally dismantle that system and build something new. Yep. much easier to do that than it is to people that something new is different. So I guess in some ways I was just so annoyed, like them seeing that as their biggest threat just bothered me. Like, I don't think they're wrong. It was just like, God damn, you can't have everything, you know?

Mandy:

Yeah, I totally felt the same way, but I guess we'll see how apathetic people turned out to be.'cause it seems like they didn't.

katy:

so apathetic because the book opens by explaining one of the women. We're gonna learn more about Mrs. Hug Bell, and actually

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

of you and your petty detective, miss, one of the questions I would love to ask the author of this book is. If she's had relatives of these women come for her, for holding up their legacies as examples of white supremacy and segregationism. we talked about this when we were talking about voting rights I'm very clear about my position on Kerry Chapman cat and. Her support of white supremacy, which is well documented and many other white suffrage leaders using, people's bigotry as a way to. Get them to support the 19th Amendment. You know, like if you let white women vote, then we will help you maintain these systems of oppression. being that naked and explicit about that bargain. And I've had interactions with her great, great nephew and a superfan of hers where they just like. Cannot stand that someone with any kind of platform would share, would say those things about this woman that they revere so much.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

just curious if she's had, any family members come for her in any kind of way for naming their grandma or whoever

Mandy:

As a white supremacist. Yeah. yeah. I always find that whole reaction very fascinating. maybe that's because I grew up. With a mother who refused to take on that, you know, the platitudes of, you know, don't speak ill of the dead. It's like, well, who cares if they're dead or not? If they were an asshole, they're still an asshole. Like, why are

katy:

no problem.

Mandy:

No. We're like, Nope, we're gonna call it out the way it was. You may be dead, but we remember what you were like when you were alive. I also think it just doesn't help move us along if we're not willing to. Accept and point out and criticize

katy:

Yep.

Mandy:

various parts of our history, you know,

katy:

I.

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

your nana may have loved you and made delicious applesauce

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

it's possible to love people who do awful things.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

be more complex than like, you're in, you're out. You know, we can live more complicated lives than that, but I always gonna say was, um, Mrs. Bell, was trying to push back on the Brown V Board decision to desegregate and. Within a couple months had gotten 5,000 signatures, which was

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

one third of her county's white population. So it's hard for me to say that their fears that not enough white people supported them were that well founded.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

of

Mandy:

Yeah. They seemed to do pretty well when it came to,

katy:

the last thing I wanted to ask you is where in this introduction, you felt like you were reading about history, but you felt like it could have been a description of current events.

Mandy:

Yeah. I think through most of it, like that's the problem. I think that, that, that. The fact that you just realize that this has never gone away. You know, it's never gone away. And it's because we have not, partially because we have not named it and because we haven't really called it for what it is, it has been allowed to continue on. we discussed that a little bit last week too. these women's progeny are still out there and they're still using a lot of the same tactics and these ideas are in no way

katy:

Mm.

Mandy:

I think I would've been more, I wouldn't have thought that, 12 years ago

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

15, 20 years ago, I would've been more shocked by all of this. But I feel like now I'm just like, oh yeah, I see

katy:

here's,

Mandy:

what happened.

katy:

I love writing in books that I own. I love annotating them.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

on page 16, she talks about, after World War ii, how, what conservative or women were crusading against many supported and anemic federal budget restricted voting rights. State, not federal control of political and civil rights, sacrosanct property rights and states' rights in terms of public education. The campaign against the influence of John Dewey's progressive pedagogy, rejected multiculturalism in the classroom opposed the creation of a Federal Department of Education and remained wed to a curriculum centered on American exceptionalism.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

that public schools were an extension of their homes and should reflect their values exclusively upholding parental authority and patriotism.

Mandy:

I wrote in the margins of that exact same thing. There are very deep roots of the anti federal education system in this country. if that's not something that couldn't be right out of project 2025, I don't know,

katy:

If any, I mean, I'm already fired up enough, but just reading that it was like, these bitches aren't gonna win. Like deepest part of me is just like, they can't win this, this agenda, this set of goals. Like this can't be what prevails, you know,

Mandy:

I mean, I hope I'm so like downtrodden.

katy:

I'm not

Mandy:

I feel like they are winning.

katy:

No, it is. I think what I'm saying is not that I believe it won't prevail, but

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

I'm even more fortified that with every breath I take, this has to be the of our life's work is

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

know that this is going on pay attention,

Mandy:

Pay attention.

katy:

and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Garden, our own garden, you know,

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

do whatever we can to help people understand that the fruit they're eating from that garden is giving.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

that it is not nutritious, it is not healthy. And if they can make it, taste good for you. It is, it's poison.

Mandy:

I think a lot of us are looking for ways like, what can I actually do? Because on a national level it seems impossible to do anything. part of what I had highlighted on page 18, says, their experience told them that white supremacist politics acted on a local level in school board decisions in teacher trainings, in bureaucratic categorizations. In public welfare policies and in historical narratives would prove more difficult to uproot and eradicate than national or even state level policies. And I think that's still true. we need to know. What is happening at these local levels of the school Board of Welfare policies of things that are going on, at our state and local levels that are really hard to get out and do actually have impact on our lives, on our children's lives. And we have to fight against them there because that's where they take root and that's where they remain.

katy:

there's actually hope in that knowledge that if these women could use those tools for that purpose, then we can use them for ours.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

I gotta

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

with that.

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

to talk to you today

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

glad people

Mandy:

time

katy:

reading

Mandy:

yeah, go move on to chapter one. read the intro, read chapter one. We will talk about it next week.

katy:

Sounds great. All right.

Mandy:

Okay, bye.

katy:

Bye.