Our Dirty Laundry

Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 2

• Mandy Griffin

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In this episode, the hosts delve into a heated discussion about the deeply entrenched white supremacist narratives in the American education system, sparked by the second chapter of McRae's book, Mother's of Massive Resistance. They recount the persistent work of historical figures like Mildred Lewis Rutherford in influencing school curriculums to perpetuate biased histories. The conversation touches on the frustrations and professional insights of both hosts as they connect these historical trends to current events and policies, highlighting the enduring impact on today's education. They also explore contemporary conservative strategies, such as religious curriculum in Texas, and discuss the potential for progressive inroads. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to support organizations and efforts that promote inclusive and accurate educational narratives.

00:00 Introduction and Initial Reactions

00:28 The Emotional Impact of the Book

02:42 Professional Backgrounds and Personal Stakes

06:55 Historical Figures and Their Influence

12:00 Dominant Narratives vs. Counter Narratives

16:09 Modern Implications and Personal Anecdotes

20:24 Rutherford's Legacy and Modern Education

33:14 Local Control and Federal Oversight

35:15 States' Rights and Progressive Uses

35:45 Protecting Children: A Cover for White Supremacy

39:28 The Role of Education in Shaping Narratives

41:30 Textbook Bias and Historical Erasure

44:02 The Impact of Racism in Education

52:26 Efforts to Counteract Historical Erasure

54:53 Controversial Curriculum Changes in Texas

01:08:36 Strategies for Challenging the Status Quo

01:12:23 Call to Action and Conclusion


Links:

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/07/17/texas-bible-bluebonnet-lessons-may-spur-parent-opt-outs-after-mahmoud/

https://www.socialstudies.org/sites/default/files/view-article-2020-12/se8406335.pdf

https://www.zinnedproject.org

https://rethinkingschools.org

Mandy:

Hi,

katy:

Hi.

Mandy:

we had to start right away. Katie said we didn't even have to chat. She's like, no, there's a lot. And I agree. I was rereading this last night and making my comments in the margins. I was like, oh yeah, that and that and that part. So,

katy:

literally racing. I read it this hour before we were meeting because that's how my brain works, and knowing it's the

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

it is. I wanna make sure I'm nice and fresh, and I literally, I know I just had coffee and, you know, it's like the morning, but I have like the sweats. My heart is racing. I'm so angry and, and I know that it's because this is hitting on my core. Professional identity as an educator and things that I've dedicated my entire career to that it, it's like made me so sick and so angry and just also like overwhelmed, I don't know if discouraged is the right word, but just like, goddammit, it is so deep and so long and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

funded and so entrenched and like I, I just read it like again, I have like the shakes after reading this chapter.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

and God, there's like a million things to talk about just in the news as always, but I feel like when we're doing a book club, we can't stop to focus on the news because we have a book chapter to read.

Mandy:

I mean, this could be in the news today, honestly.

katy:

I have something to read to you texted to me by a good friend this morning that is like the most pertinent story I could imagine that I will probably read the whole thing to you. it's infuriating. But how are you?

Mandy:

you know, I, right now, I'm not gonna complain. We're on a little vacation in a little port town off of Seattle, and I'm like, why don't I live here?

katy:

I

Mandy:

Why do I live in the desert? There's so many trees here. So it's so pretty.

katy:

for another day. I do worry about you living in the desert. I'm not gonna lie, like, the future of water is not good. And I don't like

Mandy:

No.

katy:

in a desert where it's already a massive problem.

Mandy:

Oh, there's lots of other problems. Let me guarantee you. That's not probably the worst of them. But yeah.

katy:

it. And it's filled with nitrates from runoff, from fertilizers. So don't worry, it's either

Mandy:

There you go.

katy:

dirty water. It seems like our two oh, it's dark and

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Well, I'm very happy to see you

Mandy:

And we will get into this whole

katy:

ohy. Yy.

Mandy:

thing because I know you've got lots to add. I mean, me, I just have like anger to add, but you probably have background to add, so

katy:

I mean, this is my

Mandy:

I know

katy:

people who've been longtime listeners Mandy is a medical professional love and appreciate and admire your medical brilliance and have personally. You know, learned so much from you, so I appreciate that. My background is as a teacher and an education professor working in teacher education and research, and you know that was my job for many years and now I left my tenured position and do consulting full-time for schools and districts and, recently started a publishing company with a friend of mine so that we could make sure that students, young people, everyone in Iowa, the home state where Mandy and I are from, and how we met when we were little bi that people have access to that have been erased, marginalized, which is what this whole chapter is about. At one point I even wrote in the, the margins, like, let me find this. Whoever finds this book someday and reads my notes is gonna think I had, like, lost my absolute mind because the, my margin comments are, really all over the place. What, but I, I was like, I think I'm the anti Rutherford, this woman we're gonna learn about, like, I'm, I'm sort of like. Her opposite, but just for Iowa. I, yeah. This is page 52. I wrote, am I the Anti Rutherford of Iowa? Because this woman was just so dedicated to influencing K 12 students, teacher education, and the general public to make sure that they learned a history that was white supremacist. And I was like, God, this is my nemesis. I've met her. I met her in the pages today. She's dead, but her legacy lives on, and I feel very like, fueled by my loathing of her and like dedication to countering her efforts. I don't mean to put myself like she's. Immensely effective in what she did. And I don't think, like,

Mandy:

my gosh.

katy:

wish I was a fraction of that effective. So I don't mean to compare myself to her in that way, but just in terms of like what we're dedicated to and, and ironically like what we see as the levers of power to pull and, and what to like, how to make it work. You know, in all of the episodes we've done, I think your background in medicine and my background in education has, it just never ceases to amaze me how much of what we're learning about taps into our professional backgrounds. Have you been shocked by that? Because I

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

to this as

Mandy:

Oh yeah.

katy:

like political

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

don't think we knew how much of our own work, like our own careers we were going to be tapping into.

Mandy:

I think that's like the thing when people say that they're not political, like I'm not political, I don't get into politics. I'm just like, you are not paying attention. Everything in your life is political. All relationships are political, whether they're familial work, whatever. Like it's all politics. And so it makes sense in a way that like we would be able to relate what we're doing in our lives to all of these seemingly political things because it's all intertwined.

katy:

Oof my

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

Well,

Mandy:

it really does matter on individual levels.

katy:

and honestly, like whatever we did for work, I'm guessing that it would connect to your point, you know, but the fact that we are in education

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

I

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

especially important sites. And for white women in particular, like this book, we're reading Mothers of Massive Resistance by Elizabeth Gillespie McRay. Is about the way that white women in these bureaucratic roles of like social work, nursing teaching, like quote women's work, which has really been like classed and raced women's work, that where the rubber meets the road for white supremacy. So great.

Mandy:

I did a little bit of petty detective work into Mildred Lewis Rutherford's life

katy:

Tell me everything.

Mandy:

because that is my calling.

katy:

chapter is called Citizenship Education for a Segregated Nation, by the way, for those following along, it's chapter two in this book.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

me your petty detective and actually, do you wanna share the little image that you sent me earlier this week?

Mandy:

I texted Katie an image that I came across from my Instagram feed.'cause I think, as we've talked about before, my Instagram algorithm has me down

katy:

Right,

Mandy:

like as well as a best friend,

katy:

It's like Right. AI will be so happy to hear that.

Mandy:

oh my gosh. But it is like this picture of a woman giving a presentation and the slide says, the greatest research skill you can have is being a nosy bitch who wants to find out.

katy:

so true.

Mandy:

And that is so true.

katy:

paint me a picture of Mildred Lewis Rutherford. Obviously this chapter has a lot of information about her work, but there wasn't a ton necessarily about her upbringing and our theory that if people just had therapy, our world would be so much better.

Mandy:

Right

katy:

trauma you've

Mandy:

there probably is. I mean now it's not trauma though. It seems to be like she just embraced this. I think one of the women we talked about in the previous chapter, how they got to be where they were. So she was from a family that was part of the slave owning elite class in Georgia. And her father and then her mom's brothers. So her maternal uncles were very influential in Confederate politics. And they were generals in the Confederate army, all of them. So then her mother founded the Athens Volunteer Aid Society to give aid to Confederate soldiers, like during the war and after the war continued to help Confederate former soldiers. And then that just, it was dedicated to remembering them and the cause that they fought for. And so she just kind of took that, she grew up in that whole very confederate politics, like scorned. We're gonna, you know, tell the story the way we believe it to be still kind of part of society. And they were the people that had money and who were in everything. And so then her life was just kind of. Dedicated to that quote unquote lost cause. Although later we'll find out. She did not like to use that term lost cause, because she said it's not lost. And she was correct.

katy:

don't know what else

Mandy:

She,

katy:

the like

Mandy:

yeah, she was,

katy:

yeah.

Mandy:

yeah. She was very correct. And so she went on to go to school at the Lucy Cobb Institute, which was known for being a very prestigious girl's school in Athens. And then she taught history and literature in Atlanta, which is so wild to me that you can teach history and literature. Like the two things that I think serve to, I mean, I guess they serve in both ways to give a window.

katy:

it's, they're like, there's a couple of analogies that I think about, like one is. but I know nuclear energy isn't like awesome either, so I don't wanna use that analogy. but they're like a mushroom, like either can be really toxic kill you, or it can be like really mind expanding or nutritious, you know, like there,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

it is a powerful tool that helps people understand themselves, understand their lives, understand their communities. And if you can wield that tool in a way that people to believe that hierarchies are natural and justified, you've got a lot of fucking power. Like that is the history of information science, which of course, education is a part of, but also the media also like, you know, there's a lot of different ways people. Have and continue to learn about the world, but when you are dedicated and it, I believe that she thought she was right. Like I don't think she believed, like I'm constructing a narrative that benefits me. it seemed like she genuinely believed like this is just the truth. Capital t

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

conveniently

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

her and her family, you know?

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

it's absolutely two sides of the same coin. I, here's what I will say and clarify, and again, this is literally my job and we have a book coming out it's due at the end of August. That is about all of like, this is my job to think about, to write about that. It's not to say, oh, there's this narrative that Rutherford was pushing, and then there's another narrative as if it's like a both sides, them like, oh, this narrative is perpetuating this myth. And then this other narrative is perpetuating that other myth. One of the terms we use in the field is dominant narrative. the dominant narrative is on page 44. McRay is talking about the work that Rutherford and all these other women did to influence what the narrative would be in textbooks, and it's following historical quote, truths. Reconstruction was a mistake. American imperialism provided uplift to non-white people across the globe. The rise of the nation was a story of good little d Democrats and hardworking Anglo-Saxon Protestants and broad cooperation, not conflict among all classes of Americans characterize the nation's development. This should sound familiar to all of us because this dominant narrative is still

Mandy:

Still the narrative.

katy:

in schools at like, so much of

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

all the textbook research people were doing in like the thirties.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

different. I will tell you that right now. And also Howton Mifflin can fuck off forever. Page 49.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

to that.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

implicit in this complicit but the counter narratives to dominant narratives. It's really important to stress this. They're not equally problematic just promoting a different ideology. They're literally

Mandy:

Right, right.

katy:

That they are

Mandy:

Yep. Mm-hmm.

katy:

They are more accurate. evidence-based, and they're anchored in beliefs about dignity and worth.

Mandy:

Yeah. And they're more inclusive

katy:

they're,

Mandy:

as well.

katy:

like they reject the false premise of dominant narratives that there is a hierarchy or that these

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

are natural and real.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

just that the dominant narratives is one thing and counter narratives say another thing. It's that dominant narratives are. At best, partially true at worst, like very deliberate skewing that includes active erasure and marginalization in order to

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

quo of white supremacy, patriarchy, heterosexism, et cetera.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

it's doing. Counter narratives are trying

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

So I just cannot stress that enough that it's not like, oh, the Fox likes to promote the right, and M-S-N-B-C likes to promote the left. It's not that, right? It's saying this narrative

Mandy:

No, and I hate that. Yeah. I hate it when people say like, well, the extremes on both sides are bad. You cannot say that in my presence anymore. I used to like not respond to that as much or not have, I mean, as organized response to that maybe. But I fight back against that statement. Every time I hear it now I'm like, no, it's not the same. We are not looking at like two sides of a coin or whatever kind of bullshit you wanna try to push. One of these sides is right and one is evil and detrimental and not inclusive. And damages. Yeah. it's not accurate. And so. That's not true, that the extremes on both sides are the same. They are not. That's just like saying extreme good and extreme evil are the same. That's just bullshit. Like not to say, as we know, that one side doesn't also have bad parts. That one side, you know, like, I'm not saying

katy:

talking

Mandy:

Republicans are all good and Democrats we're not talking about parties.

katy:

lift up off of partisan politics to understand what this

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

I could conceive of an, in an indoctrinate education that is like, the thing is, it's like, have to imagine it because no one is actually arguing for that.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

not a thing. Like what people are arguing for is like a multicultural, expansive, accurate, inclusive, humanizing pedagogy. That's what people are

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

for. Right? And you have to like

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

or find the world's most like fringe weirdo who no one is taking seriously to try to have some counter to what is like a very well established, well-funded effort on the other side to promote hateful, bigoted, skewed hot garbage, and then package it as good curriculum or good education, which is

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

Hey, I'm looking at you Mildred.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

legacy. And she was super, super effective at it and,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

her structural advantage and wealth and, and everything to, to get it. I mean, they talk about, like part of me was like, oh yeah I can take notes on this and like use it for other purposes, like the summer. That was something that they kept telling, like her groups, her organizations would say, don't forget the summer. That's when we should be sponsoring teacher workshops to teach them what we want them to teach students. And we should be running summer schools for kids so that we can. Even further indoctrinate them in the summer, just in case they're getting anything during the school year that isn't what we want. And then we're going to have textbook committees that are gonna review textbooks and put out these like pamphlets and rubrics for how things should be chosen. And then we're gonna get people on the official textbook selection committees so that they're implementing those. We are going to have essay contests where students have

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

for,

Mandy:

gosh. I have something I have to tell you about the essay. Contest. You're gonna die.

katy:

to

Mandy:

this is a, it's a diversion. Yes. Mildred. And then this. Okay, so I'll finish Mildred really quick. So she was, she went to the Lucy Cobb Institute. She taught, and then she came back to the Lucy Cobb Institute and was the principal of it for much of her life. And then, she did everything that we're gonna talk about from this. She was this, and we talked about this when we talked about the United Daughters of the Confederacy and briefly went over this whole history. So she was the president of the Georgia Division of United Daughters of Confederacy, and then she became the historian general of the National Organization of the UDC

katy:

remember,

Mandy:

1911 to 1916.

katy:

Sorry to interrupt you. Do you know how I remember that?

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

her before in relation to Dixie's Daughters. A book that I also really loved and appreciated was that she wore Victorian dress and I remember us laughing so hard about what a weirdo to like, not only promote all of this history, but then literally recreate it in your outfits.

Mandy:

cosplay it in her entire life. So weird. So she also worked against women's suffrage. Surprise, surprise. She was an anti suffragist. She believed in the whole separate sphere argument, and that women had these traditional roles. But again, she was a hypocrite because she did not stay in that women's sphere. She was very political. She was never married. She went around publicly speaking and promoting all of this work that women would do in a political sphere, but then worked against suffrage. But there's one shining light in this history that I found at the very end, which I chuckled at, and I don't care if people think that this is not right of me to laugh at. So in 1927, while recovering from a serious illness, her house burned down, destroying many of her personal papers and belongings, along with her collection of Confederate memorabilia. She passed away the next year. Bye, bitch. That's what I have to say about that.

katy:

will admit, I wrote good riddance when the text was like, she died in 19. I was like, yep.

Mandy:

I mean, karma.

katy:

that our house burned down and I hope no

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

was

Mandy:

And Oliver Confederate memorabilia.

katy:

to the ground.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

so interesting that she did not have her own children. You know, this season we're really focusing on motherhood as part of white supremacy and you know, it's really clear to me as we're reading this book, and even in the other conversations that we've been having, just the one-to-one correlation between raising your own kids and raising everybody else's kids and the

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

raising children and then. That the time period that we're talking about here, like the 1920s, thirties, forties, like the rise of the welfare state and its connection to progressive

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like the New Deal, like the expansion of that as a way for white women to mother, everyone's children. And

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

gonna get

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

genocidal boarding schools, like we're gonna get into all sorts of ways that this manifested. And right now we're really focused on like women influencing the curriculum of public schools. But that is just one component of it. That for these women who didn't have their own kids, which honestly makes more sense because I will say like

Mandy:

The time

katy:

any

Mandy:

to go and do this.

katy:

it's I, in a million years I would never, ever not be a mom. Like that's the, I like I, it, it sounds cheesy and performative to be like this little support job to me, but it like that is the highlight of my life is being able to be a mother. But. who says that that is not like an impediment to being able to do other things is lying. So like

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

like

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

like I'm gonna start just shaking my fist at her. I was just raising them up, but she's down low, so like I'll raise'em to the ground. Just that she, there's all these advantages that like, she

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

super rich and didn't have kids. So it's like, well, okay, you already have a head start then. Because I'm not willing to sacrifice time with my kids or me making sure that they're okay for work and that might not be the right, I don't know. Like I, I'm sure there are super activist moms out there who figure out another way to do that. But it is ironic that women committed to these super conservative. Understandings of motherhood can be so effective when they don't have their own kids at promoting that

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

because you

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

and

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

and bandwidth

Mandy:

Absolutely. Now that makes me wonder about all of the like Republican women in Congress and their children and their mothering styles. I'm gonna have to do some more petty detective work. Nancy Mace. I'm coming. Anyway.

katy:

Katie? What's her name from Georgia, the senator who did the

Mandy:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

katy:

response to the state of the

Mandy:

Response to the state of the Yes. She has kids. We know that. Anyway. Okay. So let me tell you, I mean, we can get into this later too, but the essay contest that we're gonna talk about, which were part of, I won a Daughters of the American Revolution essay contest in elementary school.

katy:

stop, stop. What?

Mandy:

I tragically have zero memory of it and no idea what I wrote. And this was in like the eighties. I mean, how, I don't know that it was saved or I've looked online. I can find no archives of it. My mom doesn't remember what it was about, but I know that I did because I have the$50 bond certificate from the Daughters of the American Revolution for winning the essay contest in West Des Moines, Iowa.

katy:

write

Mandy:

I know,

katy:

And honestly, like the DAR is not like we've got issues with the DAR too, like the Daughters of the Confederacy.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

even more aghast if you had won that contest.

Mandy:

Oh gosh, no, I can't. I can't Ima my mom. I mean we, we discussed, my parents are liberal. I can't, my mother would not have let me write a essay contest that was at all like pro-con, conservative, southern. So it must have in that time been couched in some sort of a different light where it didn't seem like it was pro

katy:

like not

Mandy:

lost cause kind of thing. Not on the surface exactly, but I would pay if there was anyone who knew where that was, I would love to know.

katy:

you have like a box of old stuff from when you were young?

Mandy:

My parents do, but I don't think any of that has ever been in it. But I don't know.

katy:

if there was like a mention in the newspaper, like local girl

Mandy:

know.

katy:

national contact. Okay. I'm in a petty detective. what do you think about that?

Mandy:

I know. Yeah. Find it. Do it. Because I couldn't, I did search the Des Moines Register, like Microfish archives thing where it's digitalized and all I found was like a mention of when I was going to Grinnell and like this, a scholarship I received for that, that was in

katy:

dig

Mandy:

newspaper, but not as far back.

katy:

What,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

have this, the bond certificate, do you still have that bond and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

cash it out and use it for

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

Like what a

Mandy:

I should like donate it to some like,

katy:

in

Mandy:

yeah. No, I do have it

katy:

for what you can donate to, we'll circle back to that at

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

I, yeah, I, like I said, I am like shaking and have the sweats because I'm so motivated to think about just to ramp up efforts to make sure that we're countering things. Because this resurgence of. All of the work that Rutherford and all of her friends were up to the, it is just, it. It's like Absolutely. Come back. It, it feels like, what are the, what's that monster lady with the hair, with the snake hair? Medusa,

Mandy:

Medusa. Mm-hmm.

katy:

You can see these moments where like the snakes get cut off and then it's like, oh, now it's grown Eight more heads that are attacking you.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like we grew up in an era where the hacking was happening, and now we're raising kids in an era where the snake heads have multiplied.

Mandy:

A million percent. So I thought it was interesting that this opened with Rutherford and her belief that white southern apathy, like was talked about in the last chapter, was giving inroads to all of these Yankee quote unquote ideals infiltrating their way into southern schools. And she was irritated that these people had neglected the southern history.

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

said they like lacked grit. they didn't understand that history mattered and that they needed to be involved in this. And so she started out by writing these pamphlets about what was acceptable which literally gave white women like a to-do list for how to remedy this problem of this Yankee history being taught in the schools. And she had all the things that you kind of first touched on earlier, so. Sponsoring summer schools for public school teachers, creating textbook collection committees to monitor appointees to local school boards, trustees, public school teachers, superintendents. And finally it says she called for a loyalty test for school officials to see if they knew the South's true history, which these loyalty tests like so terrifying. Also, apparently things happening now.

katy:

is it, and

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

with a superintendent who said she is refusing to sign basically a loyalty test to commit to not doing anything with DEI. And this is not in

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

much

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Absolutely.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Oh

Mandy:

So, and somehow these became adopted very widely. I think at one point it said there was like a$2 and 50 cent year a year subscription fee for people who could pay for her publications, and then she used the money from those fees to pay for these pamphlets and then distribute them throughout Georgia,

katy:

Well, and some of these are wild, like the, it was a primer. Do you say primer or primer? I say primer, but maybe

Mandy:

I'd say primer, but I think you could say it either way.

katy:

intro, let's say in Mississippi, it was called the KKK, written by Laura Rose, who succeeded Rutherford. as the daughters of the Confederacy historian General, and she's a real peach.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

in this little pamphlet booklet, she argues that the first clan arose as a quote, antidote to the widespread belief among African Americans that freedom meant they no longer to labor. are right. That's

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

people didn't wanna be enslaved because they don't wanna work, right? Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

katy:

that's the reason. And then children reading the book would learn that the original Klan had been a necessary counterpart to the African American led union leaks, which Rose argued had engendered racial strife and oppressed southern whites. fact, the Union Leagues were political organizations of African Americans and white unionists in the postwar south who advocated for the right to vote voter registration support for the national government. But students would not learn that from Rose's book. Instead, this is all from McCray's book I'm reading from page 50. They would read that the KKK countered the impulse among black men to take white wives. The text reminded schoolchildren that the best citizens of our country joined the KKK because they were motivated by love and protection of the home. Violence was their last resort. And Rose also noted that crimes committed by quote, mean white men were often falsely attributed to the K, k, K. She extolled the

Mandy:

Which I wrote in the margins. I was like, oh. It was like the modern day Antifa did it. Argument like, none of this violence is us. It's infiltrators who are blaming it on these men.

katy:

Or like somehow bad apples. Like again, just it makes my brain bleed. It really does. Like it is just infuriating. So that Pam, the book Lit pri or whatever, we're like, that is just an example, but there's just so much She also had a newsletter called Miss Rutherford's scrapbook, valuable information about the South, and it was like a kind of southern history magazine. But according to her, you know, like her dominant narrative version of things she had a list of don'ts of history where she taught her readers to avoid saying the Civil War and instead refer to it as the war between the

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

and to say, you know, the south was right, not that you believe it to be right.

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

I just finished work on this chapter where we were talking about the importance of language and one of the things that we are advocating for is not using passive voice because that hides the agents of action. So even if you're talking about histories of white supremacy, let's say, you can still perpetuate it because you're hiding the agents of action. So you could say something like dogs attacked that children were attacked by dogs in the Birmingham Children's March. Right. So you're like teaching about the Birmingham Children's March. You're even acknowledging that the kids were attacked by dogs. But that's a very different way to say it than police Chief Bull Connor ordered dogs to

Mandy:

Released Dogs on children. Yes, exactly.

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

we use euphemisms and the language. Like, I literally wrote a chapter about language, you know, like the, it is

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like the

Mandy:

It's like all the,

katy:

of this.

Mandy:

the headlines from Gaza that I see, like people do that same sort of corrective work on all the time where it says like, oh, Palestinian children killed and, you know, raid on whatever, and it's like, no.

katy:

It just

Mandy:

Yeah, yeah. It's like, right. Exactly. There was part that I said like, I mean, it's, we do agree with Rutherford, I would say on her belief that public. Schooling and education helps to shape politics and culture. I mean, this is what we have in common, that these things are very important. And she, it says in the book, by encouraging white women to redouble their oversight of public education, she worked to combat white apathy about segregation. Rutherford reminded white southern women that they were, the daily workers needed to guarantee that white children learned the lessons of segregated citizenship, and they grew up to be white supremacy. Future activists, their focus had to be public schools. And this is like a battle that just is ongoing except for, at this point, I think because federal oversight did come in for public schools. And this is why

katy:

The

Mandy:

conservatives hate the Department of

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

hence why they hate the Department of Education. Now I feel like that's where the push to the school voucher thing comes in to then defer public education dollars to private schools where there is not federal oversight of what is taught, so then they can go back

katy:

Yep.

Mandy:

to teaching these sorts of things.

katy:

but it like, maybe there's a sliver of hope in this because they will. There isn't like a push then for local control, but

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

room in local control for people opposed to these things to try to do something. So it's not a perfect solution, you know, but it is

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

There was one part here where she talks about how white women, she being mray, the historian writing

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

book writes about how women feared that the centralization of textbook selection might open up a small space for black women and black educators to influence state policy. And I wrote in the barges, oh no, not a small space,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

but I think there is always like, for better or worse, no victory is complete. So whether like, yes, they were able to set up these like adoption committees and to get school board staff more power, et cetera, but then that means that there's always the chance for local people to push back. And I have this current example that my friend and co-author sent me this morning the news. But one thing I just wanted to point out with this too is another theme that we just keep circling back around our when people are arguing for local control or like quote states rights. And it seems like

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

argument, and I know it's your favorite argument, the ironic

Mandy:

My favorite dog whistle.

katy:

Like right now though, states' rights actually being a place to protect trans people or, you know, like it's, it can

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

be used for progressive

Mandy:

We just haven't done it and we need to like hold onto that and use it in the same

katy:

yes.

Mandy:

sort of way. I feel like, I mean, I think Gavin Newsom is like doing this in California, pushing back against, yeah. Mm-hmm.

katy:

other argument that I think this book is pointing to, and we've talked about a lot in the past, is like for the children, you know, like to protect the children. and honestly, right now in the news, if you're listening to this, when we post it, there's an explosion almost like a, a rupture in the MAGA world about Jeffrey Epstein files. And for years and years and years and Q anon, like all of these forces that have been for the rise of Trump have been really, really fired up about pedophilia and sex trafficking of minors like that is just this core

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

it's like, for the children, we're gonna protect the children. Of course, like I call bullshit on that argument, not.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

also, I'm not, that's not me saying I'm pro sex trafficking or pro pedophilia, obviously. It's just saying like, it's hard to believe that you actually genuinely care about the welfare of children when you are doing all these things that are harming kids who just aren't part of your community. So I don't believe you. I think you believe it, and I think you are conveniently benefiting from it in all these ways. But the way that argument quote for the children is so often cover for white supremacy, Christianity, et cetera. It's just cover for a lot of really awful things. In fact, there's another part here where about just the expansion of bureaucracy in social welfare and, you know, social work and education, et cetera. And there was this other woman, Margaret Robinson who McRay calls. Part of the anti radical community and it's like these ultra conservative groups. And she had organized the citizens committee to protect our homes and children, sought the support of the Catholic church and created a grassroots groundswell opposing the amendment. And in my notes, I wrote, oh sure. The Catholic church well known for protecting children. Ha. Period. Ha period. Ha, period.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

It's

Mandy:

And this was the Child Labor Act that she was against.

katy:

So,

Mandy:

she, so it was trying to put restrictions on child labor and the conservative argument being, this is a parent's right. To be in control of this, and the federal government can't tell us what to do with our kids, even if it's trying to protect them.

katy:

now, we're we, Iowa has

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

on child labor laws like that is

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

very current, but it just seems like this is where you have to call bullshit on these arguments that if you are partnering with the Catholic church that is involved, and I say this as someone who grew up in the Catholic church, like deeply, systematically, structurally involved in the coverup and protection of people who are actively abusing in all kinds of ways, including sexual abuse children. Like, I don't believe you.

Mandy:

yeah. Well, and I love all these, speaking of like the Epstein thing, touching on that again briefly, like all of these podcast bros that helped get Trump elected, who are now furious about like the fact that they're not gonna release any of the Epstein information. They can't,'cause it doesn't quote unquote exist.

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

But like I watched this one clip of Andrew Schultz, who was one of the podcast people talking about it, where he was saying in a facetious way, like, well, I guess we're the idiots for believing that he was gonna do it. And I'm like, yeah, fucker. You are the idiots. All of us knew that this wasn't gonna happen. That's his best friend, and he was with him all the time. And we know he's a pedophile, so of course he's not gonna release it. What are you talking about? I, I can't, I can't. Anyway.

katy:

I will

Mandy:

Course.

katy:

out my own profession of teacher education as being implemented in this as well. And some of the teacher ed programs even started because of the work of these women

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

sure they would control who was becoming teachers and what it was that they

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

students.

Mandy:

Well, it talks about the expansion of, because what's interesting to think about is before this time, public schools were not a thing.

katy:

Right,

Mandy:

Like there weren't

katy:

right.

Mandy:

funded, federally funded. It was just little schoolhouses that communities did this. And so when you start to get the legal framework to make public education an actually structured thing, they talked about how there weren't enough teachers to fill those roles. And so they were using people that only had maybe a year more education than the students that they were teaching. And they did see this gap in their ability to educate these kids, which was truly there. But they jumped on that to be like, okay, this is what we can do. Because we don't have a great teacher force, we can now influence what those forces are. And that led to like the summer institutes where they could go and they could learn and gain the knowledge to be teachers. But then they were telling them, this is what you're gonna teach. And an uneducated workforce just goes along with that. It's just training

katy:

And then,

Mandy:

and then they propagate it.

katy:

create these textbooks and you influence what the textbook companies are doing because you

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

option committees. And the textbook companies want to sell books. their primary goal is to make money. It is not to

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

children.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Their end is to make a

Mandy:

It's not to tell the truth.

katy:

sell

Mandy:

how many books can we sell?

katy:

so you

Mandy:

if these states adopt, like if Texas, this massive state with all of these. People in schools and children, if they adopt this textbook, then this is the one we're publishing and we're gonna sell it in California and Massachusetts and everywhere else because that's what's gonna make the money.

katy:

So here we have and now I'm on page 57, but this is when these studies start coming out in the thirties and forties of What is in or not in the textbooks because there's all these efforts to create lists. Like these are the banned textbooks or these are the, recommended textbooks and they all align with Rutherford's rubric for What constitutes a good history textbook or civics textbook and what doesn't. And so there are these studies that come out to show it. And this one just infuriated me. Again, my blood pressure was like at an all time high, especially because this just hit so close to home about the work that I do right now that is so parallel this This was a 1938 study, found that a student who mastered all the textbooks provided from elementary through secondary school could, in all likelihood never meet in his or her reading. One black person who had contributed in a significant way to the nation's development, careful decide step, any suggestion that they advocated racial equality. The Mississippi Educational Association had solicited the help of white students at Millsaps College and the state's teacher college to conduct an objective study of what the state approved textbooks taught about the Negro and what effects this whitewash history might have on white students. Hmm, I wonder, and then

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

this study began after a white high school boy proudly recounted to his teacher how he had punched a black girl who had not stepped off the sidewalk. For him, his failure to act with either a recognition of basic human rights or even white paternalism startled the teacher who wondered if his schooling might have contributed to this poor behavior. in the margins. I wrote, yes, think the fuck.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

what it reminded me of was a group that I was part of facilitating at our alma mater. And this was several years ago. And maybe I've told you about this before, so if I have, you know, whatever, but it's very relevant, so I still want

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

it.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

an incident at the school where a black girl and a white girl got into a physical fight in the lunchroom and. The administration. I had just moved back to Iowa and they knew I was from this high school. They knew this was my area of expertise. And so some of our former teachers who were still there said, you know, let's have like and her colleagues come try to help us figure this out. And one of their questions was, you know, what's going on here? And it's not rocket science, racism, like, hello. And it's embedded everywhere. So yes, that's obviously part of it. And of course there are layers and layers to the story. But in the, what I wanted to point out relative to that passage that it made me think of was I was as a white person as part of this research team in charge of facilitating the white student focus group. And I asked the students, where in the curriculum have you learned about racism? And there was absolute crickets. No student had anything to say. And then finally this kid spoke up and he was. accepted to an Ivy League school, had an above 4.0 GPA. So a quote, successful kid, and I'm gonna read to you what he

Mandy:

Mm

katy:

then I want your reaction here is what

Mandy:

mm.

katy:

The Industrial Revolution or the Revolutionary War was primarily white people. You can't really incorporate black people into that time period just because that's not how it was. So you can't really change the curriculum because that would be like changing history. You have to keep history the same. I think the curriculum is fine.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. I mean, it just points to the success of the erasure, of the contribution of black people to this country, which was one of the points

katy:

I mean,

Mandy:

of this entire,

katy:

is Rutherford cheering from the grave, right? That this kid

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

got accepted to a fancy schmancy school. Is getting all a pluses everywhere he goes, this is what he thinks is true.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

gross. There's so many layers to this. Like I shared this quote in workshops and we unpack like an onion, all the layers of what's wrong with this one utterance from this kid. And it's

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

to say like, what a shit kid. It's like this, he is a product of his education.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

this, I'm not necessarily indicting him, although at some point, like hella wake, you know, he's got some accountability. But this is an

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

katy:

attending the quote, best high school in the quote, best district in the state. this is an indictment of that, that the student who could be an honors student would believe this to be true when there are so many flaws in how he's thinking about it. Like, keep in mind I asked the question, have you learned about racism? his answer was about black people like it.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

fundamental misunderstanding of my question, not to mention everything he talks about that is just like such nonsense, like just so inaccurate

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

it was shocking to hear, like this

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

with me for years with just how disturbing it is. But I couldn't help but think about it in this chapter like this is exactly, and this is in Iowa, a northern state, is

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

what McCray is talking about. not only were they super successful in their work, in schools in the south, but schools across the nation that they influenced in

Mandy:

Yeah. And then there are so many layers. That's the thing that I think I walked away thinking at the conclusion of the chapter. I was like, oh, I walked into this just thinking of the promotion of the quote, unquote, lost cause and the spelling of this narrative of history. And I totally have to admit that I did not consider the erasure of black history and black individuals, and the impact that that also has. I mean, the loss of how much was contributed. The fact that that's not reflected both to white students and black students. And it reminded me, you're gonna have to be, see if your memory can be better than mine, of who we talked to about literature as being windows and mirrors.

katy:

that was probably Leah Slick Driscoll who

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

Debbie Reese. It was one of the two interviews that we just used to launch this. Both educators both indigenous women who both talk about it.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Debbie actually, because she, one of her contributions to the field is talking also about curtains. So there's windows and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

meaning you need to understand, know, the world that's different than you. You also need to understand your own life and community and identity and family. So you need to have mirrors, like things that

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

you know, there's also information that might not be for outsiders, and that's okay too.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

protected behind a curtain.

Mandy:

Yeah, exactly. I think that is what we were talking about and it just, the, honestly, just sadness of that, that one, that mirror is not there in education for black children to see that during reformation, there were all of these amazing inroads in politics and business in like local life that black people contributed to, and then that's also not there as a window for white children to see that contribution either. It's such a loss to take that part of history out, not only to tell this bullshit part of history, but to not include it so that people don't see that this is part of our history. They just don't even believe it. Like that kid said, you can't rewrite history

katy:

it

Mandy:

like.

katy:

he under,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

cannot conceptualize the Industrial Revolution or the American Revolution. Like, well, black people weren't part of that. That is just such an insane, like, that's so wildly inaccurate. I don't even know where to begin.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

and then yes, here's a nuance that I make sure we're taking into account too, because it's not just contribution. So Lager King is a scholar educator, just brilliant person who runs the Center for teaching black history that's now out of SUNY Buffalo. And he is known for his work creating, a black historical consciousness framework for thinking about how to teach history, how to teach social studies. And there's this great article, we'll link to it in the show notes. That is just, I think, a really important piece of what we're talking about when we're talking about erasure and we're talking about white women's efforts to control the narrative of what kids learn in school. And we should point out that those garbage textbooks and all those resources then get passed on to segregated schools. And so those are the materials that black students have access to. So it's even worse, like there's just

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

talks about is this. He says, while the sentiment black history is American history is factual, we cannot tell America's story. Without the story of black America in practice, the axiom can be problematic while well intended, the saying is a non-controversial, palatable and whitewashed discourse that maintains the status quo and interferes with truly improving black history education. It's a feel-good phrase because it celebrates and identifies the country's diversity and supposed inclusive mission as a democratic nation. Most problematic is that the phrase insinuates a sort of shared historical legacy between white and black people, which is not entirely accurate. In general, I have argued elsewhere that what is historically significant to white people may not be historically significant to black people. So it's not just the erasure that's a problem that is a massive problem. also who has the power to set our historical gates, like who has the

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

determine.

Mandy:

What's important?

katy:

to learn about, right? Not to just set the terms and then say like, well, how were black people connected to this thing?

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

that we even care about when we look back at the past? And that it might not be the same. And we're talking here about specifically black history, but you could do this with all the different kinds of frameworks like indigenous history, queer history, like it's, it's like who gets So the dominant narrative goes so deep that it's not like it's worth working on erasure. That's absolutely worth it because we have like a massive uphill battle. Just that, but it even, it goes even deeper than that, I guess is my point.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think it's also worth noting that there were groups during this time that were trying. To work against this. So she mentions in this chapter a couple of different progressive groups like the International Council of Women of Darker Races, the Women's Committee of the Commission on Interracial Cooperation, the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. and they argued too that the historical interpretations in textbooks did play a big role in the making of American citizens, but they sought the more inclusive personal narratives to be included. But she says they were no match for the lobbying of the more anti radical organizations and the leftist groups found themselves frozen out of the textbook market. And I wrote in the margins like same today there it just seems like we can't get past this power. Of this underlying narrative. And I, that's where I struggle to say like, how, how is this gonna happen? How are we gonna be able to get past this? Because this was a hundred years ago that this was happening and it's still influencing everything today. So I don't know if you probably have more ideas than I do since this is what you do,

katy:

But

Mandy:

this

katy:

I,

Mandy:

is what you work on, but mm-hmm.

katy:

about like our publishing company and trying to get our books in the hands of young people and trying to find or generate funding to run programs and to create resources. Like that's a place for your$50 bond to go as just one example. And there are national efforts for that. You know, this an education project is an incredible organization to support. Please, please look into that. And I think we should actually have their executive director on for an interview because the work that they're doing is really incredible and so important and absolutely worth. It's a place that I send some of my giving, you know, to Zen Education Project. Rethinking Schools is another example to support. They have a great magazine you can subscribe to. There are definitely organizations, people, educators, trying to do things. But it is. It is wild. It is the Medusa for sure. And yet, like this news article that my friend sent this morning that I want to share with you as we wind our episode down here is the, the, like I said, how even the most nefarious tactics always have like a little space, just like anything we try to do is not like a, like a waterproof, watertight protection. You know, there's always a way for things to seep in for better, for worse. So this comes from Chalkbeat. We'll link to this in the show notes as well, by Nora Remy. And it's religious opt-outs could complicate new Bible infused state curriculum in Texas. Are you ready for this?

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Pam little describes herself as Christian and conservative. The proud fifth generation Texan is no fan of diversity, equity, and inclusion. But when the Texas State Board of Education approved a new curriculum last November that draws heavily on biblical material for elementary language arts and reading instruction, little voted against it. She supports the teaching of biblical values in school and her objections to Blue Bonnet Learning. This is the curriculum that's being implemented are primarily pedagogical, but little says some of the lessons that include extended passages directly from Jesus'. Sermon on the Mount and the Book of Genesis simply go too far. This is sort of a no man's land that we're in. Little said in an interview. We've never had instructional materials that have had this much religious content. Some Christian conservatives might not share her concerns, but Texans from a range of religious faiths, including other Christians, raised objections to Blue Bonnet throughout the adoption process. A recent Supreme Court decision gives new standing to parents who have religious objections to classroom material and could complicate attempts by states to include more religious content in public school instruction. Do you know this case, Mahmud versus Taylor? It's a six three decision. The court upheld the right of parents to opt their kids out of lessons that have any connection to lgbtqia plus characters and themes. This was in a Maryland school district on the grounds that it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Opt out policies like this have traditionally been championed by conservative groups, including some of the very same groups in Texas that support Bluebonnet emboldened by the Mahmud versus Taylor ruling. Conservative groups are encouraging more parents to ensure their districts let them opt out their kids from L-G-B-T-Q inclusive curriculum, but efforts in Republican led states such as Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana to infuse more religious content in the public instruction, including biblical lessons. Requirements to display The 10 Commandments in classrooms are spurring a wider range of parents to express religious objections. districts aren't required to use blue Bonnet, but adoption comes with additional state funds. So if you adopt this like Bible-based reading instruction, you get 60 extra dollars per pupil. Which is super awesome. the Supreme Court ruling doesn't fundamentally alter relevant Texas law. Since the mid 1990s, state law there has allowed families to exempt their children from instruction that conflicts with the family's religious or moral beliefs. But parents can't opt their kids out of entire semester's worth of learning. So if they've adopted their reading instruction, is this curriculum that infuses biblical instruction throughout the entire, like you can't opt your kid out of learning to read. Like,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

what does that set up for the district? So, Texas education officials and supporters of the curriculum maintain that Blue Bonnet Learning is not a religious curriculum. The biblical references are designed to help students understand literature, history, politics, and culture. They say while they support parents' rights to opt their children out, supporters see Blue Bonnet as fundamentally different from the L-G-B-T-Q inclusive curriculum because of course they do, because fuck them. say those L-G-B-T-Q themed books are inherently ideological as if this other curriculum isn't.

Mandy:

As if Christianity is not

katy:

that's

Mandy:

ideological.

katy:

Capital T.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

to accept ideas that go guides their religion's. Teaching by contrast, they say learning about the story of the Good Samaritan exposes children to an important cultural touchstone and teaches universal virtues of kindness and tolerance.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Mandy Drogan, an education expert with the Texas Public Policy Foundation, a conservative think tank. I, for one, I'm really tempted to try my best Texas accent, but I won't because that's rude and I'm sure would be insulting. I, for one, cannot understand why any parent living in the greatest country that's ever existed in the world would not want their children to understand the foundations, the historical references that are included in the Blue Bonnet curriculum. So for instance, seek parents and community members fear that Blue bonnet will leave children feeling even more isolated than they do now. Obviously Sikhs already have a very large amount of bullying that they face in classrooms due to a lack of understanding that students and educators have of their identity. That's from Up Cower, who's the education manager of the Sikh Coalition. So basically this curriculum ha it, it's like when you are learning to read, everything is infused. So a kindergarten reading lesson on just sequencing text, like that basic skill asks students to order the days. Described in the book of Genesis Uhhuh, a fifth grade art lesson on Leonardo da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper, has them reading the book of Matthew, like passages from the book of Matthew. School. Districts across Texas are now in the process of deciding whether to adopt materials. And those that do get this extra money, still say that there's not, it's not religious instruction. Another example, there's fifth grade reading material on Martin Luther King Jr's letter from a Birmingham jail he references the book of Daniel. So they have students read. The book of Daniel what the advocate is saying, this Mandy Drogan, is you can't understand the letter from the Birmingham jail if you don't have a biblical understanding. But Pam Little, this is the woman from the beginning who's, who is still like a conservative person, says Blue bonnet learning misses the whole point of his letter. And it bothers me that it just talks about his faith in Christianity. And that's not what his letter was about. His letter is telling white Christian people to get up and start to help. Yes, Pam. Correct.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

so it it's just wild. David Brockman, a scholar at Rice University in Baker Institutes religion and public policy program says students might get the impression that Christianity is the only religion worth knowing about.

Mandy:

I wonder why that would be.

katy:

wonder why. It's just wild. So it's interesting to see How these opt-out policies that conservatives have argued for, for so long, how that ends up potentially backfiring.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

school districts also, there is a state law that has banned all practices deemed to rely on DEI. they're going to have to inform parents about their parental rights and provide parents a copy of their instructional plan at the beginning of each semester so that parents will like peruse everything. But of course they say like, this is so complicated because I don't have the time and this is my field to like comb through every teacher's lesson of everything. There's also massive language barriers. So are you going to translate every single lesson, so that all parents have equal access to being able to review? The curriculum and decide whether to opt their

Mandy:

Of course not.

katy:

So the last little bit of this article says school districts lack clear plans for parent opt-outs. So the teachers are unsure of, of like who's expected to shoulder the burden of finding replacement materials for students who've opted out of certain content.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

even fully aware of the district's opt out policies. So it's just like a hot mess. So in some ways it does actually kind of remind me of what's going on at the national level on other political issues where these extremists have gotten control and then. Their imposition of these extremist views are sort of backfiring. Like, let's even take abortion. You know, who is that Republican, elected official who was blaming Democrats because she almost died because she

Mandy:

Oh,

katy:

abortion

Mandy:

because she had ectopic pregnancy. Mm-hmm.

katy:

like, yeah,

Mandy:

I don't remember her name, but yeah. Mm-hmm.

katy:

you say that parents can opt out because you don't want your kids to learn anything about gay people. Like the, I'm not surprised that this is where it leads to this overly complicated, kind of insane, and I use that term truly like you have created a storm and mess, an impossible, chaotic situation where no one wins. Good job.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Thank you for letting me

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

We will link to that in the show notes, but thoughts like, what do you,

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

thoughts about that? Like, so they're, they,

Mandy:

yeah. I mean,

katy:

of like Christian infused literacy instruction. Now what?

Mandy:

well, at first I thought you were gonna say that she objected to the inclusion of things like the Thurman on the Mount because it was too liberal.

katy:

mean,

Mandy:

I feel like most conservative Christian Republicans don't actually follow Jesus's teachings like. Fucking at all, quite frankly. And so actually including his words might be problematic to their worldview. But yeah, I mean it's also legitimately one of the reasons,'cause as we may have mentioned before, like Josh and I lived in Houston, area of Texas for four years.

katy:

Oh.

Mandy:

Yeah. And one of the reasons that we left before our kids started public school is that I was like, I just can't, I can't have them in the public schools here. Like, I don't trust what is gonna be taught. And it wasn't even religious at that point. And I highlighted a part in the chapter where I actually was like, oh, sounds like Texas, where they talk about citizenship education. And like teaching these curated histories of what they want children to believe about the states that they live in. And Texas is truly the wildest place in the country for pro Texas education. My kids went to a private preschool while they were there, a darling little British, it was called Paddington's, British Preschool. It was so wonderful in many ways. But even there, they had entire like weeks on end of Texas indoctrination, like go Texan days. they would be supposed to wear like cowboy wear boots, hats like. I mean, we grew up in Iowa. That's pretty proud of itself. I mean, we've said before too that they, Iowa will find any connection to anything that happens as like this person, like

katy:

losers. We know we are, but we're just trying to like

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

together.

Mandy:

like so and so, like I'm sure Luigi Mangione had a layover in Des Moines at some point. Someone would talk about it.

katy:

Iowa, so Yes.

Mandy:

Yeah, he did. He went, yeah. so we love our Iowa connections. It doesn't hold a candle to how Texas educates its children on being pro Texas. while my kids in cowboy hats were cute, I was horrified by that part of their curriculum and could only imagine it getting to this point as well. And I was like, we have to leave. Like they cannot be raised in these schools and. Thank goodness. I can't imagine Bill being here.

katy:

is naive of me or just like delusively optimistic, but it like, there is this part of me that wonders if these efforts when they're success will just start to eat themselves. Because when your ideology is based on policing categories of hierarchies, just becomes increasingly about policing increasingly more. like there's always gotta be this hierarchy. So when we think about Christianity, like of course Christianity is a super diverse, like there's no

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

not even a single version of the Bible.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

it's like one thing,

Mandy:

One thing.

katy:

is not.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

There's all different ways to like, which gospels are included, which gospels are like, that's, it's not monolithic in any way. And so it, it seems like if you're trying for the supremacy of that group, then it just, it's going to continue to create, like there's inevitably, there's way more people who are gonna be cut out than let it, like, it's just there. That's, if that's your goal, is a, an ideology of supremacy. It, it seems like that's where it inevitably leads. Now I don't want

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

oh, so don't worry. Let's just wait for it to destroy itself because the damage done in the interim is just so awful. I can't get onboard that strategy. But at least this article made me think, okay, these opt out policies that are totally based in everything from this chapter, like that is a strategy, you

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

rooted in the

Mandy:

Yeah, like maybe it just gives an inroad to make it difficult for their victories. just like our victories are not complete, their victories are not complete either. And so take advantage of those little inroads. Be a pain in the ass for your public school, like your kid out. Demand that they find another way to educate your child. Like just pick on everything that you can to show the flaw in the system and hopefully that will make some bit of difference in it.

katy:

so it's, we were talking about this last week, like be a wrench, not a cog. And I think support these organizations that are trying so hard to support public schools and being able to, to teach counter narratives again, that aren't the thing that is just, so maybe this is like a good place to end on it. That what's wild to me is saying I'm not even teaching you hate yourself. That, that's not the point. You know, it, I'm,

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

understand this vast complexity and diversity. You can still be you in that.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

your version of things is imposing your way on everyone else

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

difference we're talking about. So I am, I appreciate what you're saying. Like utilize these things that seem like victories to them. I think a good example are vouchers. Like, so those, it's gonna be interesting to see how the conservatives who are white supremacist Christian nationalists respond when kids are using vouchers to attend Muslim schools, right. Or non-Christian religious schools. Like what happens that, like,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

support that? Like, is this really what you

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

You know, private schools or charter schools that are getting that money that are unabashedly progressive, you know, like it, it just,

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

it, there it's a bluff. Like we have to call their bluff that it's really about

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

It's absolutely

Mandy:

No.

katy:

about white supremacy and white Christian nationalism. Full stop.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

Right. So

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

these tools that they've created that seem benign, I guess, or seem disconnected from those things, or don't use any of that explicit language, when the rubber meets the road, like that's when their true colors come out.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

the Optout policies, or in Iowa there's, you know, legislation that you can't teach gender identity Well, okay, then let's say all of the books that use pronouns, his and her, they can't be

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

because that teaches

Mandy:

That's a gender identity.

katy:

okay, like, I will see you, your bullshit, and I will raise you,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

I'm gonna make you enact the stupid thing that you did that you didn't really do for the reasons it says on the surface. But we're going to, we're gonna force you to

Mandy:

What, and also make them say out loud. The part that they don't want to say out loud, like I think that comes up in this chapter too, is that a lot of times when they were pushing these white supremacist ideologies, they didn't have actually espouse this overt agenda because like she says on page 46, they're talking about Margaret Robertson, who was a northern counterpart to Rutherford and an anti suffragist, anti radical. It said, well, Robinson did not espouse an overly white supremacist agenda. She did not have to, the most conservative educational reformers ignored racial politics of their crusades.

katy:

Yep.

Mandy:

And I think that happens in all of the modern day stuff. Like they, it's so baked into it that they don't have to say it. So if you turn it around and exploit these loopholes, you make them say it, and then the chips can fall where they're going to as you're being honest about what you're doing. And I think forcing that honesty is definitely a place where inroads can potentially be made

katy:

Well, here we are. Yes.

Mandy:

here. We're.

katy:

I, yeah. And I'm really excited for the season as this unfolds to start tapping into the folks who are doing really cool, powerful, exciting work to keep these histories alive, whether it's through school or whether it's through public history, who are parenting and, you know, mothering in ways that are not rooted in this white supremacy. And so I, yeah, I'm just very eager to. Channel the sweats and shakes that I have into action because

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

This was a really Yeah. Fury

Mandy:

listeners, if you, yeah, and if our listeners know of people in those realms, please like, drop us a note, send us a message if there are people who would like to talk about that. I think those are like episodes. We would also love to record talking to people who are involved in that, so yeah.

katy:

self-promotion. We are admittedly

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like we, yeah, we have fallen down in

Mandy:

We just talk to each other once a week.

katy:

ideally once a week. And God knows that has not been the case.

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

we would be remiss if we did not also just remind listeners who appreciate what we're doing to please subscribe and to rate us with all the stars that helps in the algorithm or whatever, you know, so people can find it. At the very least, we should just remind people to do that because we're doing no other marketing or promoting at

Mandy:

Promotion. Yeah.

katy:

which I think we to do more of because I want to make sure that especially our fellow white women, stop. This like stop being involved in this garbage to see things for what they are, to align ourselves and be in solidarity with people who have four generations been doing the work of fighting this fight against our foremothers. And we have to be clear-eyed and dedicated to not participating in that, not perpetuating that and getting our shit together. Full stop.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Yep.

katy:

Alright, on that

Mandy:

All right, so on that,

katy:

well talk to you

Mandy:

we'll talk to you again soon. Okay, thanks. Bye guys.