Our Dirty Laundry

Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 3

• Mandy Griffin

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In this episode, Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell continue their discussion on Elizabeth Gillespie McRae's book, 'Mothers of Massive Resistance.' They delve into the stories of three Southern white women—Florence Sillers Ogden, Mary Dawson Cain, and Cornelia Dabney Tucker—who significantly influenced political activism and white supremacy in the early to mid-20th century. Ogden leveraged local politics and New Deal policies to benefit white elites while maintaining segregation. Cain focused on anti-prohibition and business-friendly policies, also breaking with the Democratic Party due to its evolving racial policies. Tucker campaigned against FDR's court-packing plan and later promoted the Republican Party among Southern whites, emphasizing business interests and states' rights under a white supremacist agenda. The episode underscores the complex roles these women played in shaping the South's political landscape and how their actions still resonate today.

Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.

Mandy:

Hello?

katy:

Hi,

Mandy:

Hi.

katy:

of an angel coming through my headphones.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. I don't know that it's ever been characterized as such, but thank you.

katy:

I think that I can say that. It's so good to see you. I was complaining about a bug bite right under my eye that has made my eye swell up. It's really just karma because one time my daughter, she reacts to bug bites. Really? Like intensely.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

she had gotten a bug bite right in the middle of her eyebrows, like right there, and it swelled up and she was totally fine. You know, we gave her Benadryl and so it ended, it went away. But we, my husband and I were laughing. So hard and sending Star Trek character memes to just show like it was so swollen up her poor little forehead, and now I feel like this is just karma for me laughing at her in her moment.

Mandy:

gosh. So much of parenting is karma, I feel like.

katy:

yep, yep,

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

true. Well it's good to see you

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

I'm super excited to schedule our conversation. We haven't scheduled it yet, but it

Mandy:

Looks like,

katy:

we are gonna get a chance to talk to Elizabeth Gillespie, MC Gray, and I'm so

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

about that. I probably shouldn't say anything until we have it scheduled.'cause now I'm gonna jinx it.

Mandy:

We'll make it work.

katy:

Jinxing and karma and yeah, all, all the

Mandy:

All the superstitions

katy:

Put'em all together. I'm currently sitting under a ladder watching a black cat go by while I record this. Podcast. Well,

Mandy:

Oh, but I,

katy:

ask

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

we've had so much rain here in Iowa, like unbelievably wet summer, and the mosquitoes are just at an all time. I've never experienced a summer like this with mosquitoes like this. And I was

Mandy:

Ew.

katy:

you what, what the mosquito situation is in Las Vegas. Do you not really have any?

Mandy:

No, there's, I mean, here and there you might find one, but like really? No, it's very, there are hardly any mosquitoes, which is great

katy:

there's

Mandy:

benefit.

katy:

standing water everywhere all the time in my community. So that's just a breeding ground

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

buggers. well that, I can't think of any meaningful segue from mosquito bites to white supremacy.

Mandy:

except for the annoyingness, like the constant never ending

katy:

Yes. And they just keep and yeah, wreaking havoc,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

But we are reading Elizabeth Gillespie Mac Gray's book, mothers of Massive Resistance, and we're currently on chapter three campaigning for a Jim Crow South, which. I know last week I came in so hot because the chapter was about everything

Mandy:

You do? Mm-hmm.

katy:

and this one, you know, it connected on some things we've talked about before with electoral politics for sure. But more than anything, I was just writing a bunch of questions because there a lot of it was new learning for me are

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

interesting to think about this era, this moment. In the twenties and thirties when

Mandy:

The

katy:

I guess even thirties and forties into the early fifties when the

Mandy:

Democratic

katy:

in the South starts to shift and like the modern Republican party starts to form. And I know we've wondered about that in the past, just the nuts and bolts of how that happened. And this chapter was really

Mandy:

Really interesting in. Yeah, I thought it was super interesting in how that played out and really interesting that. White women had a lot to do with that.

katy:

Right. We

Mandy:

Great. Okay.

katy:

known.

Mandy:

We shoulda known

katy:

We gotta

Mandy:

better.

katy:

sniffing them out. Well, let's, let's just start, what were some of the pieces that you found most interesting or, or where do you wanna start our conversation today For chapter three?

Mandy:

I mean, I think just the setup in the beginning of the chapter. Just kind of painting this picture of what electoral politics were like in the deep South in that time period was very interesting to me. Because she says just right in the beginning that the Deep South was home to the most authoritarian, undemocratic, partisan political systems in the nation. That in. The 1920s and 1940s presidential elections brought out only between 10% and 20% of the voting age population. And that over 90% of those voters cast their votes for the Democratic Pres presidential candidate. And that was just kind of a reflection of that stronghold the Democratic Party had and. That also in those states, black participations in elections fell below 1% of the eligible voting age. And my initial thought with that was like, oh, it's like the current Republican party's dream to bring back those same authoritarian. Political systems, which they are trying to do by gerrymandering today to disenfranchise people who are voters, but it seems like it was very similar during that time period as well, which is really interesting. I think I,

katy:

I mean, I know it's kind of low hanging fruit to say, make America great again, is wanting this

Mandy:

that's what they're talking about. Mm-hmm.

katy:

what they're talking

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

I, I all the same parts that you said, especially the fact that below 1% of black people who were of voting age were voting. And of course this is 1935, I think is like, yeah, the 1930s is really the stats she's pulling from. So this is even after the 19th Amendment gets passed. But of course there are all of these. State level laws like poll taxes reading tests, grandfather clause, like there, there are all of these and, and just voter intimidation,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

if anyone sees you with the polls, you're gonna get fired.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

And what I also didn't know some of that. I think anyone who's familiar with the civil rights movement, this puts into context just how important and vital it was to do that work in the South, but also just how incredibly. Courageous and dangerous that work was to think that that's the level of authoritarianism that was

Mandy:

There

katy:

people went into that and

Mandy:

and people

katy:

up

Mandy:

up from that.

katy:

to push back. I

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

so incredible to me and, and inspiring.

Mandy:

But one of the pieces that I didn't know about that most of the states

katy:

for a

Mandy:

a while and South

katy:

when was the last

Mandy:

States,

katy:

move away from this, had open. Ballots. And

Mandy:

so you had to go.

katy:

and pick a

Mandy:

A Republican card or Democrat. Mm-hmm.

katy:

you had to vote party lines and everyone saw what you picked up.

Mandy:

And it really, this is one of the questions

katy:

chapter really made me wrestle with was

Mandy:

whether

katy:

secret

Mandy:

ballots are more or less democratic

katy:

because I

Mandy:

I know we'll get

katy:

into

Mandy:

it, that one of the women,

katy:

in this chapter from South Carolina and this, what was her name? I thought for sure I would

Mandy:

Dabney last I think.

katy:

Yes, Cornelia Dabney Tucker,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

maybe, she's the last woman featured in the chapter and she, I think, honestly, was the one that I was most shocked by. But she lobbied really hard for a secret ballot it was going to improve the chances of the. The newly evolving Republican party's commitment to white

Mandy:

Supremacy myself

katy:

she

Mandy:

was

katy:

that was the

Mandy:

the only way they were ever gonna

katy:

seats. And she was absolutely right.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

to the secret ballot actually emboldened

Mandy:

White re candidates like

katy:

got them into

Mandy:

power. And yet

katy:

at

Mandy:

at the same time he opened

katy:

was

Mandy:

what led to this authoritarian.

katy:

Regime in the first place and this stranglehold that the Democratic Party had in the south. So I thought, gosh, I don't know which is better. Which is worse?

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Secret ballot? Because both, women on white supremacist side

Mandy:

Used both ways. Yeah, right.

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

Well, and I guess the only highlight to that, to your point, is if, if it can be used both ways on their side, then. We have to figure out a way to use it both ways on the opposite side, maybe to make some good for it. I think. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll get to that when we talk to her more. I think one of the interesting things that, well, one of the things I was shaking my fist at the women suffragists for though was the, the later statistic that said when women did. Get the right to vote. There was this huge increase in voters in the presidential elections. So it said in Mississippi and South Carolina, there was a 69 and 63% increase in voters in presidential elections with women's suffrage. But it said white women's suffrage did open up the political system, but in many cases, white southern women also made good on their promise that as full citizens they would uphold, not weaken the Jim Crow order. So this is the deal we talked about when we were talking about the fight for suffrage is the part of the story that's really kind of left out. Our modern telling of it is that the deal with the devil that was made was that women, white women would get the right to vote, but kind of if they supported the disenfranchisement of black voters, and that's what they did.

katy:

white

Mandy:

leaders.

katy:

leaders explicitly promised in their efforts

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

white male legislators to vote for the 19th Amendment. was

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

it was not like a secret or an accident That was a strategy leveraged by. Women leaders, the degree to which they themselves that. That's the argument around women like Carrie Chapman Catt, like, oh, sure, she might've made those arguments, but it was for political expediency purposes. It wasn't what she actually believed, which I honestly think makes it worse to be honest. But it also doesn't really matter at the end of the day because that is what happened that Elizabeth Gillespie McRay says that they're, what they, what white women did with the vote is to make and sustain Jim Crow, not dismantle it.

Mandy:

Yep. Yeah.

katy:

We, the o other piece that I thought was, so, there's so much I found interesting about this chapter, but this idea that women getting the right to vote it, it wasn't like white women in the south start suddenly running for office. that was the distinction too is that their,

Mandy:

I,

katy:

them not being worried about winning elections themselves

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

gave them freedom and power to really push on issues. In ways that who wanted to run for office or were trying to get reelected, couldn't afford to do. And so they put in the expression, but these women just went balls to the wall to, on these issues. And, and I thought that was interesting. And

Mandy:

Huh.

katy:

subordinate position allowed them

Mandy:

Actually strengthened their fighting position in these, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

someone who plays chess who's like, yes, that's this gambit, because I don't understand chess

Mandy:

Nope.

katy:

regularly beat me as I try very hard to beat them. I don't understand. I, I would be the worst political strategist of all time, but I, I thought that was so interesting and that they, of these women, I mean like in. Lots of ways demonstrated their true belief and commitment to white supremacy. Like they wrote about it. They talked about it, but of the policies that they were advocating that McRay says that they were often more of like a color blind approach to politics, but that all of the ad policies they were advocating for. A strengthened and deepened white supremacy. That I think is really interesting too. This kind of turn, it's like, oh, I recognize the baby that's being squeezed out of this womb

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

You know, like, oh, this is the modern political web of relationships that I'm familiar and frustrated with, and I, I see it being birthed in this moment, reading this chapter.

Mandy:

Yeah, and I think important to point. Out that that was the underlying message still because I think they were so effective in this, you know, the quote unquote colorblindness, that it really did allow the future generation to divorce themselves from the white supremacy and act like that wasn't the underlying stronghold in politics, while also continuing it on. Which is just so amazingly subversive in like a very bad way. I think. The other thing that I highlighted that I thought was also just so shockingly similar, similar to today is when she said, this is the bottom of page 62, with less than 20% of eligible voters in the south bothering to go to the polls at all. These three women that she talks about were a minority speaking to a minority, given their intense political commitment. They were hardly representative of Southerners of any kind. And I was like, just like today, I mean the elected. Southern political officials. I think that we see today, the Lindsey Grahams and the Whatnots are not at all representative of the majority of people who live in the South. I don't think it because the voting populace is still while maybe better than 20% not great. And the efforts to decrease the voice of people who are against those. Political powers that are the elite are so heavy in that area still, that they are still just an elite representing the elite.

katy:

Mm-hmm. The last piece I'll put forward for the context before we start diving into these specific women, I think builds on that too. Like there it is, this just tiny portion, but they have so much power and. Just like the fact that they weren't trying to run for office themselves, and that afforded them leeway. I think something else that seemed very modern to me was how they, they were deep in party politics on both Republican and Democratic sides, trying to, to push towards an explicit commitment to states, right? Like all of these kind of code word things for, you know, parental rights, whatever that, that we hear today, but they. They had no problem. So they were deeply involved with the party, but they were not loyalists to the party. They were

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

issues. And I, I just kept writing over and over again like, tea Party maga, like, it just, do you

Mandy:

same. Same? Yep. Mm-hmm.

katy:

fascinating and the

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

was the women who felt like they could take the lead on

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

and call out the men in their party for. Abandoning the values and issues that, that just struck me

Mandy:

So

katy:

hard. And I wrote at one point how Ian, because the, all of this stuff with Jeffrey Epstein is right now going on, I don't know when people end up listening to this episode, but. We're recording this in late July, 2025, and the biggest issue in the news right now, I honestly think like across the new spectrum, which is really hard to do these days, to have something that's getting talked about by all the networks, and I'm sure there's some, you know, more or less on certain networks, but the, it's this idea that what the issue that animated, especially women. To commit to the Republican party, to maga to any of these things comes from this world of conspiracy theories and Q anon that are, have have

Mandy:

Proposed that.

katy:

there's a, you know, highly organized pedophilic sex trafficking ring that connects Hollywood elites and politicians, et cetera. And why they supported Trump was that he had promised to. Out make public this client list of Jeffrey Epstein, who's a notorious sex trafficker, super rich guy who supposedly killed himself while in jail and his partner is

Mandy:

Still in jail.

katy:

I mean, we should do a mini episode at

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

there's a white lady who's done some shit.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

But it's fascinating to me to watch The fervor

Mandy:

That the people who are coming

katy:

issue

Mandy:

don't seem to have a problem.

katy:

I,

Mandy:

I wouldn't say

katy:

abandoning the

Mandy:

Republican

katy:

abandoning Trump, but wielding their

Mandy:

power

katy:

to get those people to do what they want them to do

Mandy:

and

katy:

to

Mandy:

say that we're not.

katy:

loyal to you. We're not actually loyal to this party. We are loyal to this issue, and this is why we care about, I mean, we really should do an epi.

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

we'll end up doing like many, many episodes about. Anon and its connections to MAGA because it does connect to motherhood. It's this idea of protecting children and yeah, just how that spread like wildfire. So I, I don't

Mandy:

I don't know what

katy:

your thoughts about

Mandy:

that.

katy:

women saying we're gonna be super politically active, but we're, we're committed to issues and we will go with whoever

Mandy:

Is gonna,

katy:

us to that destination.

Mandy:

I think that we see it like play both ways. I guess. As always. I mean,

katy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mandy:

my whole thought and we'll see how all of this Epstein stuff plays out. Is that in this case, I just still don't see a world in which Trump doesn't end up still. Getting his way on this one. Like I just don't know that I see that group as powerful enough to really sway it. And he's just. Gotten away with so much, and to me, this just, I don't even understand how this is an issue now because I feel like all of this information about Trump being on the list and obviously he's not gonna wanna put it out, has just been so obvious to at least the, the progressive side that I don't know. I don't know that it's gonna be a linchpin in this whole. Partisan thing, but it's interesting to watch. It's really interesting to see that that play out. I agree. I mean, yeah.

katy:

in this specific topic because I do think we should get into it more, but I, whether regardless of the degree to which we think this indicates any kind of real change in the political wins. It does. It just reminds me so much. Like it's the issue that's firing people up. specifically white women, and they're going to follow that issue through come hell or high water. That just reminded me so much of what's now and that

Mandy:

well in this case I'm all for it.

katy:

Yeah, I know. Yes, for sure, for sure. Well, let's start with the first lady. Why don't you introduce us

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

first woman in the chapter?

Mandy:

Yeah, so I think that there's really interesting differences between these women, which is part of what made the chapter itself, I think, such a fascinating one to read. But, so it starts with a woman named Florence Tiller's Ogden. And she. Kind of represented, I think what we think of as southern political elite white women who grew up in this very powerful family who was involved in politics had a lot of money, was very influential in this era, but was still entrenched in the old politics of the South. So it says she was a devoted Democrat, a new deal advocate, an FDR fan. She was just this very. Faithful Southern Democrat person. But interestingly, it just makes this single quick mention that she was the wife of a Chicago man who had come south, but she stayed an aunt and not a mother.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

again, like another woman, very influential in politics and promoting all of this, you know, patriarchal. Societal roles, gender based roles, kind of politics. Not a mother, not your typical white, traditional trad wife type woman that she is arguing for.

katy:

Right. None. None of them were

Mandy:

none of them were, no, yeah, it was very, yeah. All of them.

katy:

to motherhood.

Mandy:

Yep. Yep. All of them. Also college educated, although. She went to,

katy:

about that

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

she had,

Mandy:

a non-degree program. I was like, oh, of course. Go to college. Spend the time

katy:

and money,

Mandy:

and money. Not a degree.

katy:

paying for it.

Mandy:

Yeah, didn't get a degree.

katy:

she studied. Expression, cultivated originality and refined naturalness and. To me it just, it seemed like, oh, college for influencers.

Mandy:

Yes,

katy:

you're not

Mandy:

yes, yes,

katy:

teach you how to, you know, look pretty and seduce people into think doing what you want them to do.

Mandy:

absolutely.

katy:

actually she went to Belmont, which is where my husband graduated from. So

Mandy:

Oh, really?

katy:

his brain and ask him.

Mandy:

Oh.

katy:

told me a few stories of what that was like. He transferred there for his last two years of college. And you know, as a, a kid from Minnesota, to move to Tennessee. And I, I do remember one time that he told me he was waiting tables and like the reli religiosity of the area really was a huge culture shock for him. And he said multiple times that people would ask him when he was serving them, have you been saved? And that. first few times he was really confused by the question was like, I, I'm okay. I'm doing fine. You know,

Mandy:

Like, like he's being trafficked himself or something.

katy:

I don't know. then he, he said it took him longer than he thought to really connect the dots about what they were actually asking. But yeah, I'm gonna have to say, oh, were you. Were the girls expressive and cultivated in an original way and had refined naturalness. Maybe that's I have heard from friends, who went to school different places in the deep South about football games and the, the expectation to dress up for football games and like wear makeup, do your hair, wear a dress, like it, just such a different, cultural connected to gender than anything we were.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

enmeshed in, immersed in ourselves. and a friend one time who said, she is from the south, and she's like, Ooh, I'm a 10 in Iowa. I like this. And I was like

Mandy:

Wow. All those Iowa Farm girl scrubs out there dressing in our slop and

katy:

Bless our hearts. Yeah.

Mandy:

Wow. Wow.

katy:

let's, let's

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

Ogden then.

Mandy:

Yeah, and so she was very, once she left that non-degree program, then she seemed to dive right into the politics of the South, getting super involved in our favorites, the DAR and the UDC. Interestingly talks more about,'cause we talked about how we probably didn't have as many problems with the daughters of the American Revolution as we do with the UDC and I was like,

katy:

we

Mandy:

nah, we probably should have. Because she was talking about how over this decade the, the DAR shifted from this more progressive Americanization. Ideal to anti radical campaigns, stressing ethnic Latin nationalism, immigration restrictions, suppression of subversives

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

support for a security state. So there were ideas and like committees and efforts towards very familiar things. What we're seeing today, increased state sanction surveillance education programs, blacklisting of quote. Doubtful speakers, reformers, and peace activists. I'm like, okay. All the same thing. All of it.

katy:

I wrote in the corner there how very no. Ish being NOEM, Christy? No, just, it, it made me think so much of her, like the, her coplay with border security and, you know, the, this set of issues, this bundle of issues also just seemed so creepily modern.

Mandy:

Yeah. Yep. I did say that the DAR still was cautious of embracing this race-based nationalism that the UDC was just out there with. But apparently Ogden just didn't have any problem with that. Disc congruity between the two groups, and she went full force into a lot of their things. Like she wrote about the dangers of immigration. And it just, this language, I was like, Ugh, this is the language we, that I felt like I had hoped we had moved fast. And then Trump just emboldened again and brought right back to the forefront. In one of her writings, she said that immigration works undercover like a cancer. Eating away at the very vitals of our country. That was like sad face emoji in the margins. Like how are we still in this same, you know, early 19 hundreds. It's like a hundred years later and we're doing the exact same thing.

katy:

Yeah, think

Mandy:

let's definitely do.

katy:

a mini episode, at least on the Daughters of the American Revolution because I, now, I'm remembering that in the thirties, I wanna say late thirties, they infamously would not let Marian Anderson sing at their concert venue in Washington, DC a black woman.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Let's, let's put a pin in that to get into it.'cause I'm sure there's a lot more there. Yeah. This anti-immigration piece of it. Surpri surprise me. It, it's not surprising in that, especially the quote you just read, like obvi, it all fits together. But I, what, what intrigued me was how cross issue they, these women's platforms were just the, the bundle of issues they were interested in,

Mandy:

That it wasn't.

katy:

Simply white supremacy in terms of anti-black racism in electoral politics, let's say. Like it really was this cross issue bundle that exists right now

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

all fit together. And

Mandy:

and

katy:

think too, I was really shocked and, and again, this is just showing my ignorance and peeling back the onions, like I

Mandy:

I knew some about

katy:

deal

Mandy:

having Implications for

katy:

equality that were bad.

Mandy:

like, they,

katy:

when social Security was passed,

Mandy:

it wasn't for certain

katy:

workers that were disproportionately workers of color,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

farm workers or domestic servants. Right.

Mandy:

So there I, there was some of that. I knew that I just,

katy:

to read

Mandy:

Alex, how

katy:

these

Mandy:

women.

katy:

loved. and supported the New Deal

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

they saw it as benefiting their white supremacist aims. I that it, it was just, hmm, important to read that this of Big D Democrat. Politics. FDR, it makes sense. Like the only way he could get elected three times, the only way he could have the level of support he had is because enough people found his policies to benefit what they wanted push forward.

Mandy:

Yeah, I thought that was a really interesting thread, like throughout this chapter, is that the whole FDR New Deal component, working in these politics of these women in ways that I just had not thought of before

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

Again, just so the same things like I wrote in the more the margins, like, oh, familiar. And here's the same thing again. Like they brings up this whole fear of, indoctrination of unsuspecting undergraduates in colleges where they were just afraid of them being indoctrinated by these European political refugees and being pulled away from American ideals by learning from people from other cultures, basically. Yeah, I just,

katy:

anti-intellectualism, like

Mandy:

Yep. Mm-hmm.

katy:

too. So there's a, a point where she's talking, Ogden is really opposed to quote scholars shrouded in caps and gowns and poets who would steal from the rich and give to the poor.

Mandy:

Steal from the rich.

katy:

they?

Mandy:

I, I, I think I laughed out loud at that steal from the rich and give to the poor in like a non funny way, like in a incredulous way. Like, wait a second. Where do you think the rich got rich from?

katy:

Oh

Mandy:

yes.

katy:

this, we, I think we have to also mention the, the column that she wrote

Mandy:

Yes,

katy:

years called DIS and Debt. I don't even like saying it. It's like a vernacular

Mandy:

Rn.

katy:

appropriated that she got the phrase from a black tenant farmer that. Was a sharecropper. She ran this plantation of sharecroppers, which is the whole other topic we shouldn't need to get into. But Nick Gray says by ignoring the social context of economic exploitation that undergirded the tenant's request, the tenant was asking her. To borrow 50 cents for quote, A little of dis and debt. Oh my God. Again, it's like I'm re quoting here from this chapter, but that then

Mandy:

she takes

katy:

this. The,

Mandy:

conversation.

katy:

had with someone over how she was exploiting them

Mandy:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

katy:

the black vernacular, appropriates it, and then makes up the title of her column that she's using to argue for further exploitation of these people is like a pretty

Mandy:

Mind blowing, just so upsetting. I mean, I don't know any other way to,

katy:

it is.

Mandy:

to even talk about it. And then this is a column it says that ran for more than 35 years.

katy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Ugh.

katy:

But by her own estimation, she was a fair, benevolent, and successful

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

of her sharecroppers. Even though she thought this. And her workers striked like it's, it's such a classic thing that you see in people's memoirs or letters or whatever there. I remember doing some work when I was a professor at Iowa State and there was a former university president there who was writing about how Iowa State was one of the earliest universities to black students. And so he's writing about how like they're so welcome and they're thriving here. They

Mandy:

They do have trouble.

katy:

housing. admits

Mandy:

It's like because your university

katy:

policies that they can't live

Mandy:

on,

katy:

So

Mandy:

the fact that you're arguing that group, so

katy:

on campus,

Mandy:

yet acknowledging that they houses.

katy:

finding housing and fail to connect those dots, that you aren't actually welcoming those people if you have segregated housing. Not even segregated housing policies, discriminatory housing policies like that. That just the inability to connect point A to point B is. Pretty stunning.

Mandy:

And then she said, you know, I make them,

katy:

but I

Mandy:

I treat them like human being.

katy:

And I wrote Slow clap.

Mandy:

well, and I also wrote like, treat them like human beings,

katy:

I don't.

Mandy:

as if they weren't like just this paternalistic narrative still is. Yeah,

katy:

And

Mandy:

wild.

katy:

wrote that. Her workers had very little impedance in backtalk, which she found remarkable. Quote, from a race, only a few generations removed from this savage jungle. Like even her, I guess, kind of attempt at a compliment is so dripping in such deep and ignorance and bigotry. Racism, it's, it just, I, I'm sure if there are records of the people who for her that they might tell a very different story. Keeping Stephanie Jones Rogers work in mind of the slave narratives that she researched to learn about what it was like to be enslaved by white women. And those people had tales to tell, and I'm sure would have similar stories from, from this experience. So she was really committed to lobbying for policies that would. Tax policies specifically that would benefit large landowners, large business owners.

Mandy:

That part was so interesting to me too in how things are all so interconnected that even things like tax policy, you can see the institutionalization of racism and segregation and all of that built into even something like that where you look at things like. Property tax versus sales tax. And I think that most people would on the face think, what does that have to do with race? Like what does that have anything to do with even like socioeconomic policies or anything? And looking at the difference of who pays those taxes. And then where that money comes from, either the rich property holding, and especially at this time and even now, mostly elite people versus sales tax, which is paid by anyone who has to live

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

things. That was such an interesting connection that I hadn't thought about.

katy:

are are going to pay for and who disproportionately benefits from that.

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

And, and when we talk about entitlements, I hate that phrase, but we talk about whatever those programs are like the idea, especially in the segregated south, that black people were benefiting from the state government in any way, shape, or form is laughable. You know?

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

saying, well, they really need to pay their own way. Meanwhile, she is thrilled about the. New Deal. This was the example that was just so grotesque to me, was that she secured federal funds. She being Ogden to build a white only country club

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

in her community.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

thought, wow, that, that definitely. Mm, cast a shadow on the New Deal, to say the least, that

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

what the argument was is that it was dangerous for local white children to swim in mud holes near the levies. And so she organizes all these white mothers to protect their children for recreational purposes, and so they create a petition. To use the WPA money to build a local park. And then as that this plan approved that, you know, they start adding things onto it. Then it includes a nine hole golf course, tennis courts, a clubhouse, a swimming pool, and the park ends up opening in 1936 under the name of her father. And it was obviously segregated, so this was a white only. Literal country club and that black people were not allowed to go there except to work as laborers to manicure the lawns and to keep it up. And then thi this part. Do you wanna talk about the races?

Mandy:

Yeah, the annual Delta Mule Races. I had to underline the part where she said in this quote, exciting sport unquote.

katy:

My good. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

sure that's what they called it. Then black jockeys rode unsettled plantation mules for thousands of spectators who bet, drank and cheered on the Deltas workforce. Yeah,

katy:

And that was what raised money to

Mandy:

to keep it going.

katy:

the grant.

Mandy:

Yeah. Uhhuh.

katy:

the federal funds.

Mandy:

Yeah, and it says, this was just reminded me of all of the politicians that ended up benefiting from like PPP loans during COVID. Back just a little before this, it talks about den Ogden's family would be among the primary beneficiaries, perhaps receiving more than$200,000. I mean, and think of how much money that was. Back then

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

and thus were kept financially solvent by the New deal. I mean,

katy:

That's, that's how you can have someone,

Mandy:

this is.

katy:

words again. She was a defender of the New Deal. A proponent of defini deficit spending an appreciative recipient of federal aid dollars, a staunch segregationist, and a white supremacist. All those things could be true for the

Mandy:

Well, and this is just the whole idea of corporate welfare too. Like we're not okay with programs that actually fund like feeding people or giving textbooks to schools or whatever. But we will definitely take your 200,000 equivalent, two millions of dollars now to run our families businesses in the way that we think that they. Benefit us because we are the white elite who are of course, using it in the right way, not the way that we think is mooching off of society. Although it is the exact same thing, only a hundred times more expensive, thousands of times more expensive and worse. Ugh.

katy:

right,

Mandy:

Yes. I hate it.

katy:

it's not great. Let's move. There's even more about Ogden, but I, I think we should move on to Mary Dawson Kane. And

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

Was someone who, again, was married, but they lost their only child just after childbirth. So

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

not. Currently parenting anyone. She was a devout Baptist super, super religious, but did not believe that religion should be connected to the state. She was deeply committed to the separation of church and state. She thought that religion had no role in discussions of freedom and liberty. This,

Mandy:

again was one of those examples of how.

katy:

people. come to such wildly different conclusions despite having the similar beliefs or values or whatever. That these are all just yeah, complicated women who exemplify all of these interesting alliances and ways that strange bedfellows to support certain policies. They illuminate how that is possible. was really interested in the campaign to end prohibition, and again, you would. Maybe guess that like a devout Baptist would be prohibition of alcohol. But she was a wet, which I think is an unfortunate for the people who, I know it's the opposite of dry, but it's just like, ugh. It, it just made me think of the word

Mandy:

It's like the bird. Moist. Yes. So gross, moist, wet.

katy:

So she was the against prohibition. I, she wasn't like pro alcohol, I don't think, but basically did. She's in the anti, the nanny state. She, she doesn't want the government kind of up in people's business, so she struck me as almost more like a libertarian kind of vibe in terms of modern logics. Just, it's not the state's business to regulate morals, of course. It's like, which morals does she want to regulate? In which ways is maybe a better question. So she had

Mandy:

work this and was aligned with people and

katy:

other piece of this that like just the

Mandy:

inside

katy:

politics and, and. How you can have

Mandy:

power, in some ways,

katy:

you don't have power in other

Mandy:

ways,

katy:

And, and

Mandy:

and this

katy:

of both Kane. And the next one we're gonna talk about

Mandy:

was that

katy:

because

Mandy:

were,

katy:

the outlier, they got a lot of attention

Mandy:

yep.

katy:

being. This, like, oh, you're a a, a Baptist woman who doesn't want prohibition. Who wants prohibition to go away?

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

interesting. Let's give you more airtime. Let's give you press because you are this outlier. And I, I thought that was interesting too.

Mandy:

Well, I also think that the background in which she was living was so much different than Ogden as well, that that probably really influenced the way she looked at it. So it says that she lived in this part of Mississippi where it was. A timber industry and small for farms that were owned and worked by 58% white majority. So it seemed to me she was more working in this kind of, maybe more quote unquote, poor white. Area

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

of the south where it even says like the county was this hard scrabble county of tough men and tough women. That was home to both an early Mississippi NAACP chapter and a thriving KKK presence. So it's like. Kind of a different milieu of society that she's in. And I think maybe that contributed to, to her anti prohibition stance, just in the language that she argued that one prohibition violated these constitutional rights. But I also found the next statement like super interesting that it made criminals out of decent men.

katy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Again, this idea of like protecting, we talked about it with the KK, K last time and now like the prohibition type thing. When you're looking at these working men and probably these less financially secure white men and the relationship there to alcohol and then the criminalization of that. Now it's just so deep, like there's so many strings to pull at in all of that. That I think probably informed. The decision she made, and it's just interesting how that all then still worked together with this exactly.

katy:

like how you can get all of that to line up in your brain and not have cognitive dissonance around it. It actually made me think about the opioid epidemic, which we, we call an epidemic, which frames it as like a medical crisis, not as a criminal crisis. And I think that because it's an epidemic that really impacts

Mandy:

White

katy:

You know, like not just

Mandy:

people obviously,

katy:

but

Mandy:

I,

katy:

she's

Mandy:

very

katy:

Clearly

Mandy:

Packaging

katy:

the policies and issues she cares about within a white supremacist frame. She

Mandy:

was

katy:

mad that there was an anti-lynching bill being proposed, and so she was breaking with the Democrats

Mandy:

as the New Deal Democrats. There were people in that party that were more progressive and.

katy:

you know, Eleanor Roosevelt, the first lady at the time, was really

Mandy:

outspoken on

katy:

Desegregation and, and anti-racism. And

Mandy:

So I think that

katy:

wing

Mandy:

of what was

katy:

pulling

Mandy:

the Democrats

katy:

that

Mandy:

direction,

katy:

she was having none of that. So she called herself a Jeffersonian Democrat to distinguish herself from any about racial equality.

Mandy:

This, you know, person.

katy:

lynchings happening. Around her and it's just not considered a problem. And

Mandy:

so this is

katy:

kind of

Mandy:

of

katy:

like morphs into the dixiecrats that then morphs into the, them leaving the democratic party, joining the Republican party and then pulling the

Mandy:

publican,

katy:

party

Mandy:

right?

katy:

when that had been the party of racial equality, the party of Lincoln defending the nation, et cetera. So she was also involved in like consumer.

Mandy:

Yeah. So here's

katy:

business

Mandy:

value. Yeah. This is where we get, again, like to the financial part of it and the more how we can see where the politics of pro business actually infuse with this. Kind of politics as well. So she was part of the women's, or the leadership of the women's division of the Democratic Party and supported the National Consumers Tax Commission. So this was this network of consumers, farmers, housewives, and businessmen who lobbied for reduction in business taxes, again, sponsored that organization.

katy:

The National Grocery Store a and

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

because they

Mandy:

They wanted to be able to

katy:

have chains all

Mandy:

for and

katy:

they were pushing for that. So they

Mandy:

pushing

katy:

organization really just as it, it

Mandy:

made people think.

katy:

like a consumer

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

but it was really just a business lobby. And she

Mandy:

And was very clear

katy:

that she's pro business. I

Mandy:

I mean,

katy:

you, you start to see like the kind of Reagan Republican that, that's what she struck me

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

kind of emerging out of this, Yeah, I, I thought she was interesting too. Do we wanna switch over to Cornelia Dabney Tucker,

Mandy:

Yes. Although I don't know if we,

katy:

Kane?

Mandy:

I think this the last interesting point that I would make about Kane before we move on to the next lady is this point that McCray makes. On the top of page 75 where it's just looking at the. The ability of white women to inhabit this role. Kind of like you talked about at the beginning of the chapter where it says, while many democratic office holders were unwilling to make a claim break with a popular president, such a breach could own, could most easily be accomplished by white women who had little to lose in the way of elected posts or pol or partisan perks. So yeah, that's just exactly what you were saying is that they could get away with. Being these more fringe types of groups because they weren't trying to get elected. They weren't trying to keep the popular politics alive. Yeah. And

katy:

still have a lot of power to mobilize people. I, I guess it's, you know, for better or worse, we keep saying that it's there.

Mandy:

there.

katy:

lots of different lovers of power, not just those official formal positions of authority, those matter, but that they were the, all these women, Cain included, were clearly using their. Position, they're in a lot of ways subordinate position to, to do a lot of work and to push the people who were elected to make them support the policies that they wanted to support.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

I think you mentioned this too, the context all these women are in are so distinct and important in the deep South. Like

Mandy:

Whether.

katy:

are like Ogden and you are know, a super wealthy. Plantation sharecropper boss lady, and you know, in a majority black community or you're like, Cain, and you're growing, you're in a majority

Mandy:

White

katy:

community

Mandy:

that's

katy:

poor.

Mandy:

And then we have

katy:

Dabney Tucker, who

Mandy:

is in South Carolina,

katy:

Charleston. And

Mandy:

that has a very different context too. And, and even just her efforts to

katy:

Promote Charleston

Mandy:

to as a destination,

katy:

to see it

Mandy:

as like Aorist.

katy:

site

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

trying to bring dollars into the community through tourism.

Mandy:

Her back

katy:

too, just knowing she was married

Mandy:

to a

katy:

real estate man who was also really committed to this idea of making South Carolina this paradise

Mandy:

paradise

katy:

wealthy white people to come visit.

Mandy:

and,

katy:

they had five kids,

Mandy:

but, but then he died,

katy:

in 1941, and so she had. No

Mandy:

husband, and he didn't

katy:

leave her

Mandy:

very much.

katy:

she has these five kids that she's raising on her own. So she goes to

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

estate and antiques. And I, I

Mandy:

Think all of that,

katy:

is connected to this. If you're gonna make Charleston or antiques from,

Mandy:

you

katy:

pre-Civil war

Mandy:

era whatever,

katy:

gonna make a business outta that, you have to be committed romanticizing

Mandy:

this, this past, creating this myth of that. You know, with all of that,

katy:

We do, we

Mandy:

we have episode about presentation weddings like.

katy:

just made me think of the

Mandy:

Aesthetic

katy:

she's marketing to

Mandy:

to people and how that's connected to

katy:

the lost cause as well. So she was really, one of the first issues she gets involved in is the F

Mandy:

yeah's proposal,

katy:

pack the Supreme Court,

Mandy:

which I couldn't figure out like that was,

katy:

issue she latched onto

Mandy:

and why

katy:

The,

Mandy:

she sends out these specific,

katy:

to

Mandy:

to get other women to sign on, not just women, but

katy:

a, a

Mandy:

a network of women that develop so fast, like mm-hmm.

katy:

from hundreds to many, many, many thousands across the country in the

Mandy:

Matter of.

katy:

weeks and months.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

did you catch why

Mandy:

No,

katy:

the issue?

Mandy:

I thought that same thing. I was like, we need to do like a little deep dive into what. All is entailed into the opposition to court packing at that point in time, because I know that it's been brought up again in our current politics of like, how are we gonna solve all of these issues we have? Let's expand the Supreme Court more on the liberal side. And so it's like, here's another way that we could. See how it goes both ways. Like there's arguments that are foreign against it on both sides, but I don't, I don't know why that that is an issue we should definitely get more into, but you're right. So she started collecting these signatures against, it started with 166 signatures, and in less than three weeks was up to 150,000 telegrams arriving at the courts to oppose this court packing or arising, arriving at Congress. Yeah.

katy:

so amazing to

Mandy:

to me to do that.

katy:

in a time where there's no

Mandy:

There's no text messages, there's no,

katy:

no, there's

Mandy:

there's,

katy:

phones. You talk into like a thing and you call the operator and they connect you in telegrams. I mean, it just was. Really incredible to me that she was able to get that many people. That's why I am especially interested in why that issue was so motivating to

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

of all the issues that they could be fighting about. Especially when there was such a support for FDR overall, like

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

him on that decision. But she ends up then. The the

Mandy:

the other women,

katy:

were trying to make the Democratic party work for them or still aligning themselves, but saying I'm a

Mandy:

I'm kind,

katy:

I'm not that kind of Democrat. And she fullblown just leaves and is like, I am actually Republican. And guess what?

Mandy:

I think

katy:

all

Mandy:

of

katy:

are secret Republicans too, and you just don't know it. And the fact that we have to use an open ballot makes

Mandy:

it.

katy:

really hard for me

Mandy:

To get.

katy:

to. Vote Republican, even though I think you actually would. So she was interested in trying to get rid of the the ballot situation. Am I right about that? I don't

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

confuse any of

Mandy:

No. Yep. That's what you're saying. And then, but I have to point out one of my favorite sentences in this part of the chapter, you know what it's gonna be

katy:

No. Tell

Mandy:

oh, okay.

katy:

I do.

Mandy:

It's just the,

katy:

go.

Mandy:

it says, Tucker, neglected fashion, took up smoking and drinking bourbon, and lost her ability to talk about anything but politics. I was

katy:

I did write in the margins there. I see you Cordelia. I see you.

Mandy:

I did same. Same Cordelia.

katy:

I, know just for very different

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

know? Yes.

Mandy:

I loved that.

katy:

I, I did like the pa, there's some photographs of her too. I do wanna try to look up pictures of these people. And she did neglect fashion, although she also used fashion politically. She ends up making a dress out of like newspapers or ballots or something and just stands outside the capitol to, you know, get, again, get media attention. I think these women were all really good at leveraging what made them. Distinct from other women that they were these outliers and they, they managed to make that work for them and to get a lot of media attention that ended up, ended up helping their cause. So she, she basically says, look at the ways that FDR is betraying the white south. Even though of course we can look at the. New deal and say, well, not entirely. You know,

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

ways that it definitely reinforced, like the mortgage lending, that's where red Lending comes

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

is from the New Deal. Like

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

the ways that

Mandy:

The new deal was carried out and mm-hmm.

katy:

Exactly. So there, there's so much I think to unpack with the New Deal. So the fact that she's like, Nope, not good enough for me. She didn't also like that the Democratic National Committee was changing some of their rules about how delegate, like, how the delegates worked or like they, they seeded black delegates and she was not happy with that at the national Convention. She also wasn't happy with the way that they changed rules about needing just a simple majority to. Have the candidate run for president to have that nominee. And she thought, well, once you do that, the southern states really don't have any power. Then it's

Mandy:

The power. Mm-hmm.

katy:

right? So she's like, you sat black people and you took away our disproportionate power. Like, I'm out. I don't want anything to do with you. And really

Mandy:

And

katy:

to

Mandy:

starts.

katy:

work to push, to reframe how people think about Republicans in the south. That was

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

to me.

Mandy:

she was really the beginning of it. And it does make the point that like while the Republican Party wouldn't really come to power in the South until the late fifties, like she was really one of the early drivers of that, which is, and she drew on this organizing of white women voters. Of white women's involvement in civic and business organization, all of these women's groups to really galvanize that move and break into the social part of politics in the South, which then eventually trickled down into the leadership of politics, the South, which is so fascinating.

katy:

It is also, and this the, I think, yes, it's so fascinating because she wasn't interested in working class white people. So the, the, her vision of the Republican party was the Republican

Mandy:

party.

katy:

grew up with,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

oh, it's the Republican party of here. We said the business class it, they wore neck ties, not overalls. Did not seek black supporters, advocated white supremacist policies in the names of state's rights, moving to serve the lily white impetus in the National Party, and really trying to disconnect the reputation of Republicans as ruled by black majorities being

Mandy:

Influenced by

katy:

northerners who supported racial equality disenfranchisement of, of white wealthy people. So her, her vision for the Republican party was absolutely like a white elite. Which that I think for people for many years, that is what they thought of and I

Mandy:

I think that is.

katy:

what it

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

yet there are these other seeds that

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

other women show, which

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

just that.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

that when we look at the way that it's shifted even in our lifetimes, and it's hard sometimes to make sense of it. When you rooted in this history, you're like, oh no, it actually

Mandy:

Makes sense,

katy:

of

Mandy:

sense. Mm-hmm.

katy:

And

Mandy:

When there,

katy:

and it, and

Mandy:

it reveals what is foundational.

katy:

values and commitments that. That are the last to change, and it's the common ground that all these people have is white supremacy. it. So.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

It's like a, this, I, I don't know. I wrote it at one point, like, is just the racist. Whichever party can be the most racist tends to do well.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

that's the, it doesn't really matter which one it is.

Mandy:

What's really interesting is that Tucker uses issues that don't seem like they are white supremacist issues, like the secret ballot to really promote a white supremacist agenda, and she does it in a way that uses her femininity and her role as a mother and grandmother to hide kind of in a way what. Her underlying agenda is. There was this story about when she went and stole the microphone basically during a state legislator meeting, and it was actually during, when they were saying the prayer, she went and grabbed the microphone from somebody and then gave this speech about changing these secret ballots. Um. Which didn't go well for her as far as like a public image went. And then she seemed to try to rehab herself by selling her grandmother role. Do you remember that picture? It's on page 81 for whoever has the book.

katy:

Now of this cute little, maybe 3-year-old boy in this little striped shirt looking at the camera and it did say that the newspaper published these pictures, but I thought there's only one

Mandy:

Thought, well,

katy:

get this

Mandy:

for them to get this picture

katy:

photo of her with her grandkids. It had to come from her, and it's

Mandy:

and it,

katy:

image

Mandy:

like

katy:

she's. respectable grandmother

Mandy:

grandmother

katy:

did, was confused and didn't know she was interrupting things and just believed so strongly in this issue and it, I thought, oh

Mandy:

thought, oh.

katy:

it's such a good example of respectability politics or like a way to leverage that somehow. Oh, I'm not dangerous, I'm just a sweet grandma who doesn't know any

Mandy:

Doesn't know any better like

katy:

cents

Mandy:

2 cents.

katy:

honestly

Mandy:

And it honestly works. Yeah, yeah. Well, and then she like turned it around and sold it even more than she went back to the Capitol and was wearing this dress that's like made out of, what was it made out of? Like newspaper or paper that,

katy:

Newspapers that were

Mandy:

yeah. Newspapers that were supporting her idea to have a secret ballot. Yeah. So this time she didn't like go in and steal the microphone. She didn't actually even go in the building. She just stood on the steps of the building and newspapers, took pictures of her posing for photographers in her secret ballot outfit that she made. And the headline was clothed and a political issue like again, just another. I don't know the imagery. I, she must have made that dress. So it's also like, here I am, I'm the homemaker. I made some clothes to, you know, support my political issue. And I'm getting pictures of it. What did they call her? Like the Justice Queen of Virtue.

katy:

her, the hat that she's wearing, this jaunty hat with her secret ballot dress literally says publicity on

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

It's so obvious, I am trying to get publicity for this, but it works. It's similar to what we were talking about with the other women leveraging their positions as outliers

Mandy:

Outliers

katy:

unusual

Mandy:

in

katy:

their stance or

Mandy:

their

katy:

like, I am the lone Republican in the sea of Democrats and here, let me explain why or I, able to get publicity. And of course it's.

Mandy:

and.

katy:

Hard to remember a

Mandy:

Remember

katy:

think

Mandy:

a time, I think we were born in an era where people still

katy:

from the same source. So just

Mandy:

source. So just the power

katy:

get in the

Mandy:

being able to get, and

katy:

that

Mandy:

that,

katy:

the

Mandy:

is,

katy:

people are

Mandy:

people are,

katy:

This is one of those other

Mandy:

this is one of those other things like

katy:

a secret

Mandy:

this, A secret ballot, less democratic,

katy:

this

Mandy:

and I've thinking about this a lot,

katy:

having

Mandy:

having one

katy:

Three

Mandy:

like

katy:

or

Mandy:

networks.

katy:

or two major newspapers. Is that better or worse for democracy than this like massive more grassroots media landscape where there, there are pros and cons to both sides,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

not,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

there's anything. Inherently democratic or

Mandy:

Democratic or intimate democratic,

katy:

models.

Mandy:

of those models, it's like

katy:

to figure

Mandy:

how, who is able to figure out how

katy:

to promote what

Mandy:

to use it.

katy:

promote?

Mandy:

Right? Yeah. That does make me think about like the news back in early days of television when there were. Four channels you could turn to and you had to watch it when it was on. There was none of this streaming. We talked to my kids about that this summer actually, of something we were doing. It was like you used to have to like turn it, there was only these four options and you'd have to sit down when your show was on and like you couldn't watch it later and there was no like history of the show that you could go back to. But yeah, I mean in that point in time everyone watched the news as well. Because there weren't all of these other options to do so it's like, yes, people were informed, but then there were very limited places to get that information from. And as we know from reading this, it's very easy to shape the narrative You want people to believe when you have a captive audience, whether it's textbooks or news channels. And so maybe that was a time when people had more respect for the news or. Even when newscasters could be better journalists, even I don't, I don't know.

katy:

like if we think about the civil rights movement, like having these images of children being attacked by police dogs in Birmingham and having that on the nightly news and so many people seeing that and being really horrified

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

was a

Mandy:

that was a strategy of

katy:

was to just try to get images or. Tells funeral, just to

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

this is what's happening. Do you cannot look away? I think the part of what to

Mandy:

Part of

katy:

democratic

Mandy:

Democratic

katy:

More inclusive is

Mandy:

is

katy:

able

Mandy:

being able to,

katy:

a journalist or

Mandy:

you are

katy:

this, singular

Mandy:

singular,

katy:

there, you have enormous

Mandy:

you have enormous,

katy:

in terms of news you think is important or how you're framing things. And there's no way to

Mandy:

and there's no way that.

katy:

thing as unbiased ways to do you have to make decisions about that. There's no way to cover everything. So when you look at

Mandy:

So,

katy:

and it was all these like old white men, like I, I

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

the

Mandy:

Understand

katy:

expanding. Who gets to decide and what criteria they are using to decide that. I absolutely understand the benefit of that the. Kind of other side of it

Mandy:

other side of it is then

katy:

being funneled

Mandy:

aren't.

katy:

thing. I guess the ideally people would be funneled into something that is more inclusive and thoughtful and inherently diverse, but that didn't seem to be an option. Like it, it's

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

alternatives spring up. There was, can't remember her name. I saw her being interviewed. She was a journalist

Mandy:

journalist

katy:

like Breitbart into OAN,

Mandy:

o

katy:

the

Mandy:

went into

katy:

right

Mandy:

far right

katy:

quote journalism

Mandy:

journal

katy:

Leaving because she

Mandy:

because she had some.

katy:

that this is actually not journalism. This is full indoctrination that we're involved in, and I'm not okay with that. And then really dis disentangled herself from this movement. But she said, she wrote a

Mandy:

She said she wrote a book.

katy:

media ecosystem on the far right and how it's like a Medusa that you cut off like, oh, Tucker Carlson gets fired. He just moves even further. And now he has his fo, it's like that. See that side of things is just endlessly. infinite. That abyss is infinite. And so you just can keep if you get quote canceled by that

Mandy:

Canceled by

katy:

then you just

Mandy:

network,

katy:

and people go and follow you and you're just further down the

Mandy:

right?

katy:

hole. So I, that, that side of the media landscape is horrifying and clearly not good for democracy or humanity. But I, yeah I do

Mandy:

I, I do think that

katy:

Who was using whatever

Mandy:

average

katy:

better. And there was

Mandy:

better and there was.

katy:

where Mick Gray says that there were

Mandy:

There were other organizations

katy:

places that these

Mandy:

place

katy:

Like South

Mandy:

working.

katy:

The deep south that she

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Tenant Farmers Union, the Highlander Folk School, the YWCA, the Southern Conference for

Mandy:

Southern

katy:

But they

Mandy:

but they told,

katy:

easy to combat. Just,

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

about this before, that it's much more difficult to

Mandy:

Dis

katy:

white supremacy than it is to maintain it. It's just more, re much more resource intensive. It's an uphill battle.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

and yet these

Mandy:

And yet

katy:

also very savvy.

Mandy:

very savvy. And I, I thought that this was a kind of an important

katy:

to just

Mandy:

factor to just set up

katy:

women

Mandy:

that even when I

katy:

what they

Mandy:

get exactly what they wanted,

katy:

when they

Mandy:

exactly when they wanted it, but the work.

katy:

was really important, foundational work for what was going to come

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

She talks here about, the, we've talked about this already, the colorblind

Mandy:

All

katy:

they

Mandy:

way that they were,

katy:

were

Mandy:

the policy that were

katy:

intended to support

Mandy:

intended for white

katy:

in opposing anti-lynching legislation,

Mandy:

legislations,

katy:

sure that the

Mandy:

making sure that the New Deal money, white cons,

katy:

they

Mandy:

they were rejecting federal inroads into any social welfare programs that would.

katy:

people of

Mandy:

Support any people of color

katy:

and that

Mandy:

and that this all.

katy:

guaranteed that when the time

Mandy:

When

katy:

segregation, white women would

Mandy:

white women would

katy:

experience to

Mandy:

experience

katy:

a crusade.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And she says, another thing I highlighted was time after time, their political organizing drew from the pool of white women voters, white women's civic and business organization, and white women's partisan auxiliaries. They just. Mobilized this whole group of women who were able to push this agenda so well that it's still here and thriving and doing the same thing a hundred years later somehow. Yeah, and it, I don't know how we, at this point, I'm like, okay, so how do we. Reverse this, like how do we do more, oh, I don't know, like to become more dominant. Like how do we become not so easily fought against like these other groups of women have been in the past that you mentioned, like, I don't know.

katy:

This is the

Mandy:

Well, this.

katy:

keep coming back to and whenever we have guests. I think you are always really good at asking this question too, and I'm just thinking back to different advice we've been given by people and I think

Mandy:

I think

katy:

about

Mandy:

it's about,

katy:

You know that I think when you look

Mandy:

I think when you look at where

katy:

the reason that they're fighting in

Mandy:

they're fighting in

katy:

there's power there. So I think education does matter.

Mandy:

matter. Mm-hmm. I think

katy:

just,

Mandy:

it's not just, it's not enough

katy:

that there needs to be that

Mandy:

experiences that people.

katy:

policy changes. But it just look at the

Mandy:

I mean it just look at the fact that was,

katy:

she was trying to

Mandy:

she was trying to change

katy:

that the

Mandy:

the way that the,

katy:

wasn't even a

Mandy:

it wasn't even a specific issue. She wanted the secret ballot because she knew

katy:

ballot

Mandy:

that the secret ballot would allow

katy:

to

Mandy:

her part to,

katy:

strength, which would

Mandy:

right. Which would allow all of these policies

katy:

very much

Mandy:

a

katy:

a domino

Mandy:

much like a domino that she

katy:

And when I think

Mandy:

brought up. And when I think about

katy:

opportunities in

Mandy:

missed opportunities.

katy:

to. Make some of those structural changes, but that is

Mandy:

That that is also a really important thing.

katy:

on too. I don't know. I

Mandy:

So I dunno, I don't wanna

katy:

I never wanna lose hope. I always sound like, I, we talk about toxic positivity and I worry that I'm like, but there's hope. Maybe there's not. And then, but then what? I don't know if you

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

okay, no, it's never gonna get better. Okay, I still have a life to live. What does that even mean? And I think it. I can, and even if it isn't going to, I would rather

Mandy:

I would rather,

katy:

things than, I don't even know what else

Mandy:

I don't even know what else do, right? Yeah.

katy:

it almost, I don't wanna say this super cynically, but it's it almost doesn't matter

Mandy:

Better

katy:

quote works, because I

Mandy:

because

katy:

I'm not gonna hang

Mandy:

I'm not gonna hang. Right, right. Yep. I, I know that's the exact feeling that I have too. Like, I can't imagine,

katy:

God no. Been

Mandy:

I was gonna,

katy:

go ahead.

Mandy:

no, I was just gonna say something terrible that I should probably edit out instead of putting in here. And I was like, it's the same reaction that I have. From a religious standpoint, when you know anyone's like, well, what happens if you don't believe this? And then like, you don't go to heaven? And I'm like, with all those people you think are going to heaven, no thanks,

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

interested. If that's where I have to spend eternity.

katy:

It's a really just great way to put it. Like you're not really selling it. Sorry. Like super fun wonderful people are your, they you think they're gonna be elsewhere? I'd rather be with them.

Mandy:

Yeah, exactly.

katy:

I don't know. I've been

Mandy:

Yeah. I, I think, I dunno, I've been watching

katy:

of

Mandy:

some videos of people talking about

katy:

movement, specifically white women saying what it is that of. Woke them up and how they got

Mandy:

how.

katy:

place. And the ones I've been watching, it was really like, that was just my family, my neighborhood, my church. That was just the stew I was steeping in and I didn't even know that there was something else to know, that it

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Like a cult, like the way people

Mandy:

You know, the way people talk about

katy:

realize

Mandy:

how they

katy:

I'm in a cult.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

but it's usually some that, at least for the women I've been watching, like an inciting incidence of hypocrisy that's just too obvious and has. Is like directly impacting them or their children in a way that's like clearly harmful or violent. And then the

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

of it is just too much to take and they exit and then

Mandy:

Yeah. They can't continue with the cognitive dissonance of it.

katy:

Dorothy

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

of the house when it lands on the Wicked Witch and it's all black and white. And then she opens it up and it's like technicolor. And they're like, oh fuck. Like I didn't realize this was, no.

Mandy:

Oh.

katy:

I was, I need to rethink everything

Mandy:

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

that's honestly be really hard to try to find a place to

Mandy:

Find a place.

katy:

to fit in when you have been part of something that you realize was not good and

Mandy:

Oh yeah,

katy:

when you realize. You are the bad guy. Oh I should send you this clip. I love the Golden Girls and

Mandy:

of course.

katy:

we've talked about our algorithms know us very well, and so it pulled up a clip from like the later, was like a spinoff of the Golden Girls that I'd never watched, that they run a hotel. And it

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Cheadle was the hotel manager.

Mandy:

Oh

katy:

there's this episode where Blanche is dressed in Antebellum dress and then has the Confederate flag hanging up at the hotel. And Don Cheadle is absolutely not. You need to take this down. And it's this really fascinating episode and she has moment at the end where

Mandy:

At the end

katy:

Is talking about

Mandy:

talking about

katy:

to

Mandy:

that like.

katy:

and he's sharing what it means to him. And she's it's

Mandy:

She's like, it's all kind of

katy:

she's but what does it

Mandy:

like, what?

katy:

Like, how am I okay

Mandy:

Like how am I, okay?

katy:

saying,

Mandy:

Like I hear what you're saying, but then what does that mean? How supposed to about my family

katy:

friends,

Mandy:

my

katy:

am I supposed to think about myself?

Mandy:

myself?

katy:

it's just

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

of

Mandy:

And it's

katy:

Wait, like a path that she's gonna pick

Mandy:

said she's gonna say

katy:

muffle that all again and be like

Mandy:

again.

katy:

I can't hear you.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

she's going to face the music and just work through it. And she faces the music and works through it and, tries to repair her relationship with this guy. It's one of those moments where I was like, leave it to the, a TV show in like the early nineties to be further ahead than we are now. Good lord,

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

But I think that, yeah that, to your question what are we supposed to do? I just

Mandy:

I think

katy:

it is about

Mandy:

it's about having.

katy:

It is about. Not isolating.

Mandy:

isolating. It is about not being afraid to

katy:

we

Mandy:

doing whatever we can to

katy:

histories alive to

Mandy:

lives.

katy:

education

Mandy:

I

katy:

like to

Mandy:

alive like to

katy:

thinking, creative thinking, like all of that is just

Mandy:

all that so important,

katy:

we

Mandy:

whatever,

katy:

And then to not

Mandy:

and then to not

katy:

those

Mandy:

forget

katy:

changes really matter and I'm

Mandy:

matter and I'm not as

katy:

I'm

Mandy:

that so I, I be terrible.

katy:

I'm a terrible chess player. I am a whole, like a very unstrategic political thinker. I'm too earnest. But there are

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

at that. Like I hope they're in trust that they are working really hard on that. So I don't know.

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you said, we still have lives to live and we I mean, at least you and I, and I'm sure a lot of the people that listen to this as well have like these mothering roles and. As we can see how much those were used on this side of history to shape what's going on now, like we can at least use them. On our side and in our daily lives as well. And just keep moving forward with every, still gotta do all the shit we've gotta do. But just try to at least have those conversations as, you know, as they're appropriate, as they come up, you know, in any way that we can with our own children, with our friends, with our family and just not shy away from them in a way.

katy:

And no, this, we talked about this for years. We've, we keep saying this too, that this is the work of generations and. It is

Mandy:

It's

katy:

that

Mandy:

the.

katy:

to have quick fixes to things, or that impatience is actually an element of white supremacist thinking. Like things need to happen like super fast and just thinking I might not be the one who benefits from this personally, that I'm gonna dedicate my life to making sure that I am laying the foundations for generations forward, that things are gonna be better. That's hard thing to. Of course I'd rather not live in this shitty moment. Have I mentioned before this? I saw this on social media the other day. Someone tech tweeted, or whatever word we're using for that, posted on something said I wish I was living in an age that would just be like a footnote or a sentence in a history book and not entire

Mandy:

Yeah. Not an entire sh Yeah,

katy:

I was like,

Mandy:

not a whole section.

katy:

Same.

Mandy:

Well, it's that also along the same lines that Sam said, you know, I always thought I wanted to live in a time in history that was like this great momentous, whatever thing, and then you realize like significant time and then, then I realized I was, and

katy:

was like, and if

Mandy:

then you're like, oh wait, I don't like it. This is terrible.

katy:

but okay, here's the last thing I will say to that point that it is something that comes up a lot when you teach history is that it's easy to look back and say, oh, if I had lived then I would've done X, Y, or Z. And it's,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

easy to say that in the comfort of the future, but we are living in one of those moments and whatever you thought you would've been like during these other

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

you were doing now, and if it's like complacency and fear, then that is who you would've been in that moment and if

Mandy:

it's shutting your mouth because you're too afraid to confront people around you or to challenge your like history and your family. Oh, okay. That's what you would've done then too, you know? Yeah. Yep. So

katy:

anyway, it just

Mandy:

anyway.

katy:

with that. But we're moving on to chapter four next

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

looking forward to it. Yeah,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

for

Mandy:

I know I've like, I have really enjoyed all these chapters and I love talking about them with you, so I'm excited. So, yay.

katy:

I love

Mandy:

All right. Till next week. Okay, bye everybody.

katy:

Hey.