Our Dirty Laundry

Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 4

• Mandy Griffin

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In this episode, Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell delve into Chapter 4 of Elizabeth Gillespie McCray's book 'Mothers of Massive Resistance,' focusing on Jim Crow storytelling. The hosts discuss FDR's New Deal, judicial court packing, and how progressive politics were often used to reinforce white supremacy. They analyze the complex figure of Nell Battle Lewis, a North Carolinian journalist whose advocacy for a less violent, more benevolent form of white supremacy highlights the contradictions of white liberalism. The conversation touches on Lewis's support for segregation, her admiration for certain Black elites within constrained boundaries, and how her eugenic beliefs influenced her work. The hosts also reflect on how modern white progressives must remain vigilant about their complicity in maintaining these systems.

Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.

Mandy:

Hi. We're back.

katy:

I am so proud of us. We are

Mandy:

We,

katy:

think having a book helps.

Mandy:

yeah, we really are better when we have something

katy:

The structure

Mandy:

to

katy:

chapter by chapter. Read

Mandy:

Uhhuh. Yeah. And so here we are. We're doing

katy:

chapter

Mandy:

four of Elizabeth Gillespie McCray's book, mothers of Massive Resistance, and this chapter focuses on. Jim Crow storytelling, which is just the shaping of history. That's really interesting. But before we get into that, I wanted to follow up just on a little snippet of what we talked about in the last episode.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

'cause we were talking about FDRs New Deal initiatives and how. Typically, I think history views that as this very progressive liberal push. But we saw in the last chapter how that was actually used in some ways to further entrench white supremacy into structural systems. But there was this component of FDR and the New Deal that we were unsure of the significance of, and that was his effort to pack the courts.

katy:

And

Mandy:

and.

katy:

why the women featured in chapter three cared so much about that issue and why that would be like, just such a, a spark plug to get signatures from women all over. And you know, why? Why would people

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

that issue

Mandy:

Yeah. And because one of them, even though they were both initially F-D-F-D-R supporters and kind of had their own issues with it, one of them was very supportive of packing the courts. And then the other one was very against packing the courts. So I found this little synopsis I wanted to go on and be like, how did I never learn about this? And. Your little insight I probably did and forgot about it.

katy:

just forgot. I don't know. Maybe we didn't ever learn about it. That's fair too.

Mandy:

Well, there's one little section that makes me think that I did, because I feel like I've heard about it before. But basically very quickly, the reason the FDR wanted to pack the courts was when he took office in the early thirties. He came into this country that was just basically in downfall, the Great Depression. There was industrial production plummeted. So many people were unemployed, people were literally starving, homeless, all of these things. So he was voted in and he is like, I have to get this country out of this tailspin. So he came up with a new deal as a way to try to do that. But very quickly, the Supreme Court started to knock down all of these components of the New Deal because they thought that it was infringing. It was the federal government infringing on states rights be able to control industry and commerce. Basically. They didn't want the federal government, they thought the federal government was overstepping its role. And so all of these. Things that FDR wanted to get done were being stymied basically by the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court at that time, as currently in some ways was very overloaded with old people. And so FDR was like, here's the problem. Yeah, exactly. Old white men of course. And specifically and FDR was like, we're never gonna get this new progressive stuff pushed through by a bunch of old white dudes. So I am gonna expand the court. And his ways expanding the court was to say that for every justice over the age of 70. Who did not retire, then you could add a new justice.

katy:

Is, it's so interesting to think he framed it as an age thing.

Mandy:

I mean, I get it.

katy:

it

Mandy:

Also, it wasn't making them step down. It was just like, if you don't step down, we're gonna basically counter you. I'm gonna appoint somebody younger who's just gonna negate. Your voice in this things,

katy:

there is, I mean, well maybe negate, like you never know for sure how a

Mandy:

right?

katy:

go and I, I do just think it's. Bonkers. I mean, we could go into the Supreme Court for weeks and weeks and weeks and weigh into all kinds of rabbit holes, but just the, the lifetime appointment, and I think we've seen in the last few years, how letting them kind of govern themselves in terms of ethics rules is just not a super effective way to make sure that they're. Acting ethically.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

it's like a, a wild branch of government that I find endlessly fascinating. Like a, a piece of the judicial branch that is just so interesting how it's set up. Okay, so

Mandy:

Yeah, for sure.

katy:

70 in the thirties is old.

Mandy:

pretty old. Yep. That's equivalent to our nineties today, probably

katy:

yeah. Like in age inflation, right.

Mandy:

Exactly. So he started this push to expand the court in his first term. Then he was reelected in a landslide in his second term, and the court got worried.'cause as you can imagine. The old man white court was not happy about his proposal. They were offended by it.

katy:

mm-hmm.

Mandy:

said one of the reasons was because of their age, they were unable to hear court cases in a timely enough manner, and they were backed up and so they needed.

katy:

thought you meant they literally couldn't hear like,

Mandy:

Yeah

katy:

hearing aid technology had

Mandy:

that as well.

katy:

Maybe, maybe that too.

Mandy:

Yeah, no, he was just calling them slow basically, which really pissed them off as well and actually was not congruous at all with what was going on because they were striking down his initiatives like

katy:

ways he

Mandy:

very quickly. So it's like, nope, they're not messing around, but that's not really legitimate. But they were mad. But when he won in a landslide, then they got worried

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

He has this kind of initiative behind him, this power behind him, and he might actually get this through. So then they started to reverse their rulings on some of their more contemporary cases to go against what they had said in the past. But they were still, there was still this fight for it. The part that I had not remembered that I really think. We did learn about, and let's see if you can remember this. So they had this debate July of 1937 on the Senate floor with Senate majority leader Joe Robinson of Arkansas leading the fight for enacting it. So he had helped a lot of the New Deal stuff go through in the Senate and he named the, he got this nickname of Scrappy Joe because he would basically strong arm people into supporting. What he wanted to get done. So he was on the floor giving this opening speech about how they needed to pass this court packing initiative. But the problem was this Washington DC in July, they were suffering this uncharacteristic heat wave at that point in time, and there was no air conditioning, obviously, back in the thirties. And so they were arguing this as an in an un-air conditioned chamber. And frankly, many of the people in the Senate were a bunch of old white dudes as well.

katy:

sweating, literally

Mandy:

Yeah. Sweating. Yeah. And arguing on the floor because they still argued a bit more, I think, vehemently or physically or what, at that point in time. Not duals as they used to do back in, but still getting really into it. So there were. A third of the senators at that time were over the age of 60 Robinson opened by with a two hour long speech on the court floor, and throughout the time it was documented that he just had like this reddened face that he was sweating the whole time. And here's what happened. It says his trademark vigor flagged, and when he returned to his apartment that night, he dropped dead from the heat and the stress.

katy:

Oh

Mandy:

He, he literally died.

katy:

Trying

Mandy:

That seems familiar to me. I feel like we learned that.

katy:

It's not it. We took all the same literal, same classes and

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

to each other and it's doing nothing for me. If that makes you feel any better.

Mandy:

Okay, good. It does, but that's

katy:

is that why

Mandy:

wild. So that's why it failed,

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

because he was. Dead and lost like his greatest supporter. And so then the rivals that were against it, like took that opportunity to move in and take over, and they defeated the bill and it just died

katy:

It's, it's akin

Mandy:

and figuratively.

katy:

literally and figuratively when we talk about just like, oh, if only people had therapy when they were young, our world would be so different. But there's also all these moments in history that are just so. Like accidental or just like, oh, there's a crazy storm. And so the Spanish armada couldn't make it through. It's like just completely acts of God, for lack of a

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

phrase, that route history, a completely different direction. And that is one of them. Like, what if he hadn't?

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

What if it hadn't been so hot? What if he, you know what I mean? Just.

Mandy:

know. Yeah. And that was it. And that was the last time that a president ever tried to formally, like seriously tried to, in an effort to get the courts to expand.

katy:

Well, we'll see. I feel like it's in so many ways everything we're learning about this era, and this is the last chapter in that era of the twenties, thirties, and then,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Gillespie McRay is gonna move on to the forties, fifties, sixties, early seventies. But this era is just. Seeming so familiar to us, so maybe we'll see this become a bigger issue. Who knows? I feel like everything and anything is on the table right now, and that's both overwhelming and terrifying. And exhilarating and you know, like what could be possible? I dunno. It's what

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah.

katy:

what we keep talking about, how we're like just all the emotions, everything everywhere, all at once.

Mandy:

Exactly, so perfect.

katy:

Well,

Mandy:

way to describe it.

katy:

update. Yeah, that's, that is interesting. A little, a little giant. I have to say that so far every chapter has been so good. This one I think hit me really hard because in all the years we've been doing this, one of my favorite things to learn about are white women who consider themselves liberal or progressive, who still are just. the same old, same old, just packaging it up differently. And this, wow. Is this woman a great case study in

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Nell Battle Lewis,

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

with her name since this is your daughter's name?

Mandy:

Absolutely. That was like my number one thing reading it.

katy:

She's not. Why you Nell

Mandy:

not at all why we named Nell Nell, but I'm glad that I didn't know about this woman before I named her Nell. I love that name. I was so mad. I was like, what? How dare she? I mean,

katy:

I mean,

Mandy:

and maybe because it's also so unique, you know, like you can't get that irritated by like a Matthew who's an asshole. There's 8 billion of them and just found to happen and there's so many good ones as well. But I'm like, no, that's so, yeah, individual. And I'm pissed that she turned out to be such a raun.

katy:

figure.

Mandy:

Very.

katy:

let, this whole chapter is just about her.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

I think let's start just with some foundational info. So this, I think the fact that she is. North Carolinian is important

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

one thing I appreciate about, there's so much that I love about this historian's work and just how I think she's a brilliant scholar. Is the way that she foregrounds how much the context, the specific context, like the South is not the same across the south and being in North Carolina. Was different than being in Georgia. And for this woman in particular, she really wanted North Carolina to be seen as different from the other parts of the south, like more cosmopolitan, more sophisticated. And so one of the reasons she was. against the more egregious forms of white supremacy is because she didn't want her state lumped in with all these other states.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

but she ultimately was still very much a supporter of white supremacy. So I, I cannot, yeah, I, I'm excited to get into how both those things can be true, because I, I just think today, white liberalism, white progressivism is. Falling into all the same traps and just

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

notice that, to stop it, to call ourselves out, to be able to alert other people to it is super important.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

she's from North Carolina. What else do you remember reading about

Mandy:

So the other super interesting thing about that is she's from North Carolina, but she left the South for a while. So her early education, she started it seems like her college education at Goucher College in Maryland. But she then transferred and attended Smith College in North h Hampton, Massachusetts, which I feel like I don't know anything about. Goucher or Goucher, not sure how it's pre pronounced. So sorry to anyone.

katy:

We could never

Mandy:

Yeah, and it's probably wrong. It's neither of those. Someone's very angry right now. Let us know. But Smith College today, and I think even back then was known for being incredibly liberal. And it seems like it was at that point in time too, because it says that she attended integrated classes. There were. Black and white political leaders that were speaking on campus. There were debates about women's suffrage. The curriculum in general challenged the conservatism that dominated the south for sure, and much of the north. And so she went to all of that education, sat all that education, and even seemed in a lot of ways to bring it back with her.

katy:

Oh,

Mandy:

'cause it says.

katy:

Absolutely.

Mandy:

interviewed for her first job, and the editors noted that she was dressed in Jod first, which I'm guessing are like those, are those those pantaloon kind of pants that women wore instead of skirts?

katy:

pants that are like bigger on the top and then kind of

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

at the end.

Mandy:

Yep,

katy:

it

Mandy:

yep.

katy:

yeah. Pants. My God,

Mandy:

Pants. She was wearing pants, a blazer, boots, and a hat, and had kind of this androgynous presentation. So she was not in any way your stereotypical southern woman of that time, and she came back to North Carolina to be a journalist and started working at this newspaper. So it's interesting with that background, you would think, oh, okay, here's some hope for things.

katy:

but this is where I think it's so important to look at how she fancied herself, a modern woman, and was read as that by other. White people and know, even called a radical or you know, it

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

was advocating for modernity in, in quotes. But that modernity is absolutely not incompatible with white supremacy. And I think that's the piece that it is so, so, so important about this woman's life as a case to study, is that she could be really critical of. The south and ways that ignorance or intolerance were flourished while at the absolute same time still promoting. White supremacy. It's just a different version of it where white people are still in charge, but there it is just different white people who are genteel and educated and literate and artsy, but they're kinder and softer in that they aren't lynching people, but they're absolutely the ones still in charge

Mandy:

Which actually makes it like even a little more

katy:

it's so, it's so gross. Yes. Right.

Mandy:

Because you can, you know, a shoe that violence. Like overtly racist rhetoric while still deeply entrenching it. And then.

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

Calling yourself benevolent at the same breath. It's so wild. And the other, the other just one part that I thought was interesting'cause we always talk about how maybe some good, like family therapy would help most people not become the assholes they became, is that it also noted that her father and brothers characterized her as abnormal, eccentric, and perhaps even mentally unstable.

katy:

Well, she

Mandy:

So

katy:

institutionalized for a

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

that I really would love to ask Elizabeth Gillespie McCray, hopefully we get a chance to talk to her to ask her more about that, because that just gets mentioned really briefly and I thought, whoa, what led to that? Did she take herself there? Was she put there? What hap like, how did that all happen? Yeah, I, I do think there's some interesting family dynamics going on and her half brothers, it sounds like were very active on the other side of things. I mean,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

ultimately on the same side. They're just arguing for different methods, I guess.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

this, there's a lot in here, but I think it's not just that she was able to. Take white liberalism into the south, but that, for her white women in particular, had a super special and important role in that. So this is on page 1 0 2 for Lewis. It was only when white southerners failed to act properly. That problems arose, and it was often white men who precipitated those problems leaving white women as the real guardians over a racial segregation that could last to,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

a more benevolent in huge quotes. You know, idea about the, the racial order and being able to tie it to these economic policies in particular. Yeah, just like taking these progressive politics and then making white women the, the interlocutors, like the people who are best able to maintain a racial, a racialized white supremacist social order that's more sustainable because it doesn't. these really extreme, flagrant forms of violence.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

I mean

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

it's, I think you're right. Like there is just like a, an insidiousness or a level of this that's so much more disturbing in some ways. It's not like we need to compete. It's all disturbing. I don't think we need to like rank order the disturbing

Mandy:

I don't think it's ranking. I think it's like to our underlying purpose that you mentioned in the beginning that white women have gotten away with so much shit. I feel like without having to answer for it.

katy:

right.

Mandy:

being able to recognize that so that we don't repeat it is what we're aiming to confront, I think, in all of this review.

katy:

Just how much it's still alive today. Like

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

this is page 87. That, that, so she becomes, she's this journalist. She and we'll get into a little bit more about her professional skillset and how she used that. But in her capacity as a journalist and a columnist, she celebrated a world led by educated white progressives, white female reformers and black elites, and populated by oppressed white industrial workers and black Southerners receptive to enlightened. white leadership. So that's the world order she's imagining as the ideal

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

not. She's even com complimenting Harlem Renaissance writers, like she's not interested in black erasure, but she's interested in a very clear. Social order and hierarchy and everybody's sort of having their place within it. So in, whether it's the events that she's covering and how she's narrating those historical events unfolding before, before her, some that she's involved in, especially labor strikes and, and labor unrest, or when she's covering and she's acting as like a literary critic or a pop culture critic. She is never. Well, she does actually erase interracial cooperation when it comes to labor organizing. We'll get into that, but she's, she's very much like a, why are black people trying to do Shakespeare? Like they, they should be doing this thing that they're good at and stop trying to pretend to be white people. It, all of it is just, it, it was like being in a fun house mirror. Just the, the sophistication that she was able to keep white supremacy at the heart of everything.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

really wanna get into like how she was able to do that, but I did wanna talk a little bit about her career.

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

married? I don't know if I missed

Mandy:

it never mentioned that she was married or had children.

katy:

a queer lady? I feel like there are queer coded

Mandy:

Oh, yeah.

katy:

but who knows? It's

Mandy:

Interesting.

katy:

in that time, like what, how people identified or what they were involved in.

Mandy:

Yeah. But she was the first female staff writer

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

at the. Raleigh knew an observer and she wrote a column called incidentally, which is interesting. And it ran, it said uninterrupted for 45 years,

katy:

I couldn't believe that. Yeah.

Mandy:

which is such an amazingly long time,

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

it seems like her writing did. I cover, like you said, so many different things. Everything from current political events, to cultural items, to reviews of books, in plays, all of this kinda stuff but in a very romanticized way.

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

it says on the top of page 88, it's talking about how she said when she returned home from her travel, she celebrated seeing the first shacks of black sharecroppers because they told her she was home romanticizing economic outcomes of segregation. In fact, the story she wrote offered up both the black elite and black folk, but such writing often served to educate white people about the appropriate place of blacks and whites in a Jim Crow world.

katy:

Yes

Mandy:

when she did critique these plays or artistic works or poems that she was, and books that she was critiquing in her column, she celebrated the black elite, but only if they stayed within what she considered their blackness should be. She had this big thing about black elites. Imitating white people.

katy:

Which to

Mandy:

Sh

katy:

my God, there, I, there were so many parts where I felt like physically sick, but the fact

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

her, her understanding is, you know, black people are imitating white people and I thought that the irony of thinking that that's what's happening is. It so beyond belief, like the history of white people appropriating black culture is so, so, so, so, so, so long in the United States. And so her criticism of that is wild to me and. And it is, this is where it just becomes kind of like fun house mirrors where she's, she's gatekeeping. Things like Shakespeare, like why don't try to perform Shakespeare? It's just gonna look wrong. It's just gonna be wrong. Like, do your

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

like have your own thing. And there it was this moment where I thought, oh my God, so hard to like pin down some of these. Positions and why they're problematic. Because when I think about like the eighties, nineties, even today, arguments in education about the curriculum and what kids should be exposed to, like, one of the critiques that I've made and that I continue to make is, you know, to critique the canon of works like Shakespeare. It's not to say get rid of Shakespeare, and it's certainly not to say. white kids should do Shakespeare. Like everyone can access Shakespeare. Everyone can love Shakespeare. The problem is when we position Shakespeare as like the, the only, or the most important or the best or whatever. so being able to open up the canon for other works of brilliance and creativity that include, know, radically different ways of expressing ourselves and telling stories that are not rooted in. Whiteness or Europeanist or Christianity or whatever. And so it, it's this moment where I was like, there's this sliver of overlap in the arguments that she's making with arguments of like very dedicated, anti oppressive educators are making, or even thinking about arguments like in the eighties and nineties about Ebonics and being able to recognize and appreciate. Black vernacular, a like African American vernacular, English as like a, a you know, like as a, a really significant and important dialect in its own right. Like that is so important. And I feel like she would've been on board with that. Like

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

we diverge is that she's like, that's your lane. Stay in it. And that, so it's the, it's, it's just so uncomfortable to be aligned in any way, for any amount of time, you know, and, and to, to be able to. To craft arguments that help explain to people why that alone and on its own is so troubling. It's not because it's, it's like so much easier to say, let's make sure black kids learn Shakespeare. Or Black kids shouldn't learn Shakespeare like the, the kind of simplistic binary that's easier to sell one way or another. But either of those is still. Rooted in white supremacy, like the, understanding of the world that's not, is just needs more explanation and context and I, it's hard, it's hard to do that, you know,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

anyway, just that, that discomfort of like, even for 0.8

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

thinking like, oh, I, there's something there worth exploring, but not where she's taking it and not motivated by what she's motivated by.

Mandy:

Yeah, absolutely. It reminded me too, of the recent kerfuffle about when they had a, a black actor play the Little Mermaid

katy:

Oh,

Mandy:

the latest rendition of that, and people just absolutely lost their shit.

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

I thought of that when I was thinking of her critiques of like black students reading Shakespeare or performing Shakespeare. She was just like, what? No, this can't be. It's also one of the reasons I loved the series Bridgeton so much.

katy:

Oh,

Mandy:

I don't know if you watched any of that.

katy:

I, I watched a little bit of the first season and I totally can appreciate the critiques and the reasons people love.

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

all of that. Yeah.

Mandy:

yeah, yeah. But one of the things they do is cast characters. Whose like, you know, gender identities and racial backgrounds are completely

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

not aligned with what that historical thing would've been.

katy:

intentionally doing that as a way to like push the envelope today.

Mandy:

Yeah. But they also don't ever mention it

katy:

Right,

Mandy:

in the plot line. Like it's obviously an overt thing that they're doing, and then it's also not part of the storylines when it's brought.

katy:

like,

Mandy:

just interesting.

katy:

or is that not

Mandy:

You are right.

katy:

all of these questions, they, they get complicated. So it, but it's, it explains how she can have what seem to be contradictory positions, but they're actually not contradictory when you dig down further.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

celebrate and protect Langston Hughes coming to UNC and want people to read his poetry. But it's because she thinks it like. Lives in this place that makes sense to her and is like, that's their work over there and then here's our work over here. And you like she can see it all living but doesn't want it It's just still very literal, black and white thinking and very binary and like that. She's pro segregation.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

similar to me to how you could have abolitionists who were vehemently opposed to slavery, who were still racist or anti-black or what didn't want. Who could support segregation as much as they hated slavery. on the surface you're like, how could that be? But once you start to think about their reasoning, you're like, oh, of course. That's the conclusion they came to, you know,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

people still come to today

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

about like the arguments of, of Beyonce's Cowboy Carter album and the, this policing of genre and like, whose story is authentic or what does it mean to do X, Y, or Z? It's like that. That is such a beautiful, important work of art to look at as challenging that and, and raising, raising awareness about the history of this genre to begin with and the

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

of black people from that genre and just all of it, like it, these are still such ongoing issues in pop culture and I, I loved even thinking about pop culture as the side of this, because in the chapter. McRay even says it's, it's not just the school system. That's of course a side of this. It's not just public policy. It's not just electoral politics, it's also pop culture. And even

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

about the ways that, nell, the, non Nell that we, the

Mandy:

We know in love.

katy:

that

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

could love Gone with the wind and, and loved Birth of a Nation

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

Langston Hughes. It's like it all just seems so wild that someone could be a fan of all of those things, but when you get down to this idea that she just fully believed that this. The best system is one in which black leadership means being deferential and devoted and dependent on white, middle class women. Then it all makes sense,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

ding, ding. If

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

crux of it, then that's, then it leads you to liking all these seemingly disparate things and it leads to you advocating for seemingly, you know positions that conflict with each other, but they don't actually. Can we talk

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

about her love of mammies?

Mandy:

Oh, the whole mammy issue. That was fascinating. Okay, so in the, it's in the book on page 90. It says, in the immediate aftermath of the 1922 dedication of the Lincoln Memorial, the UDC, our favorite, their Washington DC branch gained congressional support for granite tribute to black Mamm Maise. So, Mississippi Senator John Sharp Williams proposed and received appropriations of$200,000 for it, which again,$200,000.

katy:

money.

Mandy:

In that time period.

katy:

And this should also raise every red flag, like if a white. Southern man who's in Congress is putting money towards the celebration of something that involves black people, that that should just raise every alarm bell. Like there's no way that can be for a good, like an actual good reason. And then it reminded

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

do you remember that suffrage monument that got built?

Mandy:

Yes. Yeah,

katy:

controversial.

Mandy:

in Uhhuh.

katy:

episode about it made me think of that too. And I thought, oh my God. It got like this memorial, like a monument for mammies was actually gonna happen. That's just so, I don't know why I'm ever shocked about anything anymore when we read this history, but this one shocked me.

Mandy:

Yeah, so they were gonna build this monument, which is basically just like, again, entrenching what they believe the proper role

katy:

Yes,

Mandy:

of. Black women should be, but trying to act like these benevolent actors in memorializing them. Like, look it, we're putting all this money towards this to show how much, you know, admiration and respect we have for black women in this role. As long as they do it, as we say they should because they are being deferential and. Also subordinate to us in this position. So obviously there were black newspapers that responded with a lot of outrage to this. In one of the articles that was published, this was Morris Murray who was a newspaper and editor and owner and art historian. He asked his readers to be more critical in interpreting the meaning of the sculptures He asked them to evaluate. Its obvious and also its insidious teachings. So those black newspapers then came up with their own renditions of a Mamie statue where they kind of addressed more of the sexual assault and long hours and no wages kind of exposing. This is what these mammies really have to go through. Instead of casting it in this way, that's like somehow romanticizing again, this culture along with that.

katy:

Mm-hmm. So the support, she really loved Ma. I think she had like fond me personal memories, her of

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

she GRA says she lamented a system based on paternalism that was now passing with the changing times. And I think. Had like this belief again in this, what the system she's arguing for is not totally getting rid of white supremacy at all. It's just saying like, can't, why can't black women be in a deferential supportive role that? Wouldn't that be great? And this imagined kind of relationship that she had personally, or you know, how she explained it to herself in the, in her head or just this larger system? That, yeah. That it was just wild to me. And, and that that's, she saw the mammy figure as the embodiment of that deference, devotion, independency.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

and, and that she just really had this, I, it is called paternalistic, but I wonder if we shouldn't call it maternalism.

Mandy:

Yeah. Why is it just paternalism? It's heavily maternalistic, white maternalistic, I guess, if you wanna,

katy:

Exactly. And,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

she just, like, if you keep thinking that she had this idea of like, just be what you are, not in a way that actually is anti-racist, you know, and

Mandy:

Well, and she thinks that she has. Yeah. And she thinks she has the authority to say what people are.

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

question. It's like who's defining what people are.

katy:

she is, and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

these boxes that are in a hierarchy. So it's, this is that sliver where we would agree like be what you are. But for her, she, those, that's a very. Clear segregated, hierarchical system, right? And, and she was a eugenicist. So I think that's another point where when you get down to how can someone hold what seems to be on the surface, incongruous beliefs when you push down, we should never be surprised to see eugenics. At the heart of that, the fact that she had a eugenics crossword puzzle, I thought, oh my God.

Mandy:

Oh my gosh, that part?

katy:

it was wild.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

was part of her modernity too, is like, oh, I believe in science and I believe

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

You know, evolution and anthropology and, you know, knowing the roots of all of those disciplines being so just deep in racism and settler colonialism and sexism and ableism and all those things. Again, it's

Mandy:

Well, you,

katy:

She's trying to get people to be sympathetic to the plight of people in these boxes on the lower rungs of this ladder. She's not in any way questioning the ladder or the boxes. It's

Mandy:

yes.

katy:

oh, for these poor, sad people in these boxes at the bottom, they shouldn't have to live in fear and they shouldn't have to, you know, like live in terrible. Mental institutions or prisons or like we should, they should be more comfortable, but it's, it's not their fault that they're in that box on the bottom, but they're definitely in the box on that bottom and the box is real and the ladder is real. Like all of that

Mandy:

Right, right. Well, when there was one part that was talking about her. Push for reform of the legal and carral system. And she was very much against the way that black men were treated, specifically black men with mental disabilities, how they were just put through this system without any consideration of their mental disabilities and how that might have affected. What was going on at that time. But she never even questioned that these men were in trial, on trial in the first place, most likely for crimes. They did not even commit. She wasn't questioning that system at all. It was just, well, once they're in prison, we should treat them better. In that way it reminded me. It, it, the term separate, but equal kept coming up in my mind. She absolutely, but she believed in the equal part, but she just as much, if not more believed in the separate part.

katy:

It, and today I just think about, what's the acronym? Nimby, the Not In My

Mandy:

Uhhuh.

katy:

ALS That, that, it just struck me so much that way. Like, well, I don't want, you know, poor kids of color. Not being able to go to school, but I'm not gonna send my kid to those schools. You know, like there, there's gotta be some separation there. Like I, I know people who have made that decision with that logic, you know,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

bad, I've pity, I feel bad for, but they are different and my kids's gonna get something better.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

and call themselves liberals and, and are like horrified by Trump and like, you know, think of themselves as liberal people, but absolutely still have this eugenics thinking at the, the heart of it, that that's why I think this is such an instructive case because it's so pernicious and it's still so pervasive and it's hard. To point out because you really do have to unpack things a way that takes some time to show people how this is all braided together. And I, you know, that's not always the the case, but over and over again, she had opportunities to be in real solidarity and she said no many, many

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

And, you know, wouldn't sign petitions, what wouldn't come out against even though she found it. Distasteful or bad or whatever, but it seemed more because it ma, it embarrassed her on the national

Mandy:

Yes, yes.

katy:

what it was about than

Mandy:

It was more about this whole thing that you brought up in the beginning about how the South was different and she saw North Carolina is different from the other states in the south, and she just felt like that kind of violence made them look bad. And so she would write against that, but again, she wouldn't join any sort of actual leagues or committees or anything organized against it. She wouldn't sign petitions. She'd just write about how white people shouldn't act that way. Basically.

katy:

Yes. And there was a whole

Mandy:

What?

katy:

on labor struggles

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

strikes like vi, that ended in people being murdered by the state. And, you know, really awful. And I actually really wanna put a pin in the story of LMA Wickeds, textile worker who had 10 kids, five died due to malnutrition. And then she ends up getting killed as a activist, as a labor activist like her. And she. Was I, as I understand it, a white woman who was involved

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

intentionally in building up an interracial group of strikers. So I'm super fascinated by her story, but

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

too far into the weeds there,'cause hopefully we learn more about her, that Lewis covered this event and covered it sympathetically and covered Wiggins sympathetically that in a way that erased the interracial solidarity of it all. And. Use that story to tell the story she wanted to tell.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

this is, I'm on page 98, that she Lewis witnessed a grassroots political movement rising up from the working class, yet she could not permit Black North Carolinians working class are otherwise to reject the guiding and paternalistic hand of educated, enlightened, progressive whites. Lewis, a white liberal woman and like-minded men shaped a less violent, more maternal, more moderate white supremacist state. Where leaders took care of their workers. White and black racial segregation could be sustained only if domesticated by white liberal women and men overseeing a state that strove to honor separate but equal. So she adhered to the public demand for racial segregation. At the same time, she supported the very individuals committed to an interracial workers revolution. I cannot

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

how frustrating that would've been to be those people who have this person, you know, speak on their behalf, but mutating and warping and skewing the work that they were doing.

Mandy:

Well, and it's also not, yeah, and it's also not like she didn't know about.

katy:

oh, she

Mandy:

interracial cooperation. It was in her notes. It says in the beginning like she had notes where these people that she was uplifting and supporting had made statements about believing in. She talks about this one person last name Foster. She who wrote that, I believe, in a full social and political equality for Negroes. With all those terms imply, but those notes just remained. Notes and didn't make it into her article about the strike, so she, she knew it all. She very intentionally left those part out, those parts out to support the narrative that she wanted to sell about it.

katy:

Yes. Yes. and repeatedly refused a human's right. Discourse place of paternalism or maternalism, you know, whatever term we decide to use there. And it, what it made me think about is that classic Martin Luther King quote. I know we've quoted it even recently. I think we

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

from his letter from a Birmingham jail where he talks about his

Mandy:

The white moderate.

katy:

the white, moderate, and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

But she was absolutely supportive of gradualism if, and not even gradualism, leading to full. Anything, you know, but a gradualism to a white supremacist system that was like, I don't even wanna say like softer, gentler, because it's just not like, it's still white supremacy. How could it be anything but awful? You know? But a, a version of things where there wasn't this level of extreme violence that. It, but this is where the maternalism or paternalism comes in. Like, I'm still in charge and I'm taking care of you because you can't do that for yourself. So just look, obey me and listen to me and I will take care of you.

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

I mean, just

Mandy:

there's this one story that it tells about that that very position that she was holding as it pertained to her critique of the carceral system. She tells this story of two black prisoners who, so their names were Woodrow Wilson, sch Shire, and Robert Barnes. Who were arrested for larceny, one of them, and then drunk and disorderly conduct the other one. So they were in cells that were not heated during these 20 degree winter nights. They suffered frostbite on their toes. And these two men, men, I say, who were age 19 and 20.

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

barely men, boys. Lost both of their feet and had them amputated and were left crippled

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

this, and she went after this event. I mean, very strongly condemned this treatment. Wrote articles about it that says that her condemnation of prison abuse would earn her a place among some of the most liberal activists of the 1930s, but it didn't push her to actually condemn. The racial segregation of the time, she looked at it as a failure of white people to uphold a legal system that guaranteed their superiority.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

says not their infallibility, so she wanted white people to see where this was a failure of how they could be better. But it didn't go any further than that. It's the same thing as the lynching argument. It was her disappointment and how it made white people look not in her pushing more for equality of the black people that it was actually affecting at that time. It's so weird that she would be one of the most liberal people of her time on many of these issues, yet still be upholding. The systemic inequality and racism and all of the structures she was going after.

katy:

But that, I mean, I think that is

Mandy:

It's weird and not weird.

katy:

it's weird and not weird and it's the real gut chuck for white people, and I would put us in this position who identify as progressives or liberals or like whatever the word is, you know, is. how vigilant and honest we have to be with ourselves about how that lives in us. Like this, this is the quote on page 1 0 4 that I had like at multiple stars and underlines and like highlighted in every way that her racial politics offered. Educated progressive white Southerners, a politically palatable way to digest the politics of white supremacy and just how deep it goes. And I, I am speaking personally here and how I have to. Be vigilant about this in myself and root this out in myself. The desire to be like a good person who still lives in that system. it's I wanna, and I, I don't know how else to say it other than. And, well, here's, here's an example of how this plays out. So when I was working on my dissertation, I was studying teachers who were trying to do anti-oppressive teaching in schools of predominantly white, wealthy students. A public school in like a very wealthy suburb and then a private school that. Was very expensive to attend and just how complicated and weird it is to try to do that sort of teaching with those kids in those places. And like, is it even possible? And what happens when you try it? And just, you know, those kinds of questions. And one of the things that came up when I was with the students at this private school was how important it was for them to distinguish themselves from this other private school, like eight blocks away. That they weren't that kind of privileged, like we're not like those are snobs, like those are conservative snobs and we aren't that,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

not able to extract themselves beyond that.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

to be, wanting to still benefit from the position of hierarchy without. Being critiqued for that because you're nicer or kinder or whatever. And I remember one day the teacher at that school saying, my goal is not to just help these kids be nicer to their nannies

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

And

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

being like,

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

it. You

Mandy:

Yep. Mm-hmm.

katy:

I think that again, like it, this hits close to the bone because. You don't want to think that you are falling into these traps as someone who is progressive or whatever, but just how, how likely we do and likely we are, and, and that it demands just pretty brutal honesty and critical self-reflection to constantly be thinking about the ways that we fall into this paternalism, maternalism, whatever. So I, I don't know how

Mandy:

White supremacy, basically

katy:

Yes, yes.

Mandy:

that's, that's,

katy:

or we think, and I don't, honestly, I think she probably wouldn't have cared about, like, I don't think what I just said would've resonated with her because I think she was still advocating very explicitly for segregation and like

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

unapologetic about her

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

hierarchy. So there we're, you know, that's different. But I do just still so often see like a, like a. Pity or like disbelief that, I don't know, the just, and still a desire to like protect you and your own and the, and, and still have connections to this system as we're like, you know, nicer to the help to put it super bluntly, you

Mandy:

Well following into that, yeah, that white saviorism complex that still reinforces those hierarchical. Rungs and boxes, while allowing white people to feel good about themselves, and particularly white women, I think in a lot of ways to feel good about themselves because they can still believe that they, we, as we're trying to be more critical, can still believe that we are doing good and trying to uplift, you know, these poor people, but we're still seeing them as separate. Still having that kind of lens on them

katy:

And

Mandy:

the way,

katy:

like who, what it even means to be those people.

Mandy:

right.

katy:

a quote that I just read for a book I'm working on with some friends, and I think it's gonna make it into the book, but I've been reading James Baldwin. notes of a Native Son, and there's this really incredible quote, like, Baldwin's just an incredible writer to

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

a lot to say about this exact issue. Yeah, a lot to say, but it's this really fantastic quote. He says, I am what time circumstance, history have made of me. Certainly, am also much more than that. So are we all. And I, I think that he, and he's in some ways in this essay. The progressive white person who still is very paternalistic maternalistic, or who expects like, oh, I'll lift something up because it's authentically black, or authentically indigenous, or like whatever idea we have of what, like in a very tokenizing, fetishizing, exotifying sort of way. But everyone is more complicated than that. And being able to focused on the systems and the structures that. Reinforce and reproduce and police these hierarchies and systems and binaries and all of that. And so Baldwin being this queer black man it, contemporary of the people that we're reading about right now, calling bullshit on all of that is super helpful. And hard to really process like, so what does that mean for how that's living in me and how I am reproducing that still myself.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, lots of very complicated things to think about, and I think then taking that a step further, and this is maybe we would never know how Nell Battle Lewis would see herself today, but if. If people actually take that opportunity to be critical and to look at themselves, and then to try to right the wrongs they've made or change the way that they're doing things in the future, looking at how we then accept that or don't accept that and that, or critique their methods of getting to that point. I guess what I'm thinking about too, in this is. People who have supported Trump and MAGA and everything in the past and are now somehow opening their eyes in one way or another, whether it's the ice raids or the way that tariffs are affecting farmers or you know, whatever the Epstein thing, and actually protecting children

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

turning away from that support that they once had there. I don't know how, how IFI, I don't know how I feel about that, I guess is I do know how I feel about it, and I wonder if I'm right and how I feel about it. I think I'm probably not, I, I still feel very rejecting. Of those people like as like a, no, fuck you. You should have known. This is, it's absolutely asinine. There was plenty of evidence that all of this was gonna happen and was gonna be really bad and you didn't fucking listen. So I don't give a shit that you care now. Like that's my gut reaction to all of that. But is that, I don't know if that's the right reaction to have, but I also dunno if I trust. Their turnaround, or if they're just being more like Lewis in their ability to condemn certain kinds of violence and certain kinds of things they don't support, but they still wanna uphold this underlying superiority. Obviously that's what they voted for. That's why they ignored all the signs.

katy:

would add to that is I think the. pe a lot of very vocal opponents of MAGA and Trump are still bought into all of this too.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

just, I guess that's my takeaway is, is just how, so like no one's off the hook and, and the, I don't think Right, like self-righteousness is helpful at all because odds are, sorry, I'm not, I'm not even talking to you specifically, but Sure. I get like it's, I just because. I at the, it's just so unlikely that any, especially white people, regardless of class or rega, you know, like there's, it's just the odds are that we haven't fully clicked in yet to what is required to dismantle white supremacy and to like really fundamentally do that. And I, and I, this isn't the same kind of suspicion of. People who are formally educated, that MAGA has that I, I just think also like, just like a graduate of Smith and coming back, this modern cosmopolitan woman, like there's nothing inherent in that. That means you quote, get it, you know, or that you are somehow like more enlightened. So I just, I think like a. Healthy humility and like just constant self-reflection that doesn't keep us from action, but that that is informing our actions and checking our actions is really. Useful. So I guess that's how

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

about it more than like, whether I accept or reject them or trust them or don't trust them. It's like, I don't, like, I, I, I'm trying to make sure I can trust myself and that's

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like, that's priority number one,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

So

Mandy:

Alright,

katy:

I'm

Mandy:

I'll take it.

katy:

not wrong. I'm just saying that's the I'm thinking about

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a very helpful way to think about it. I did wanna bring up really quickly.

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

that I did. Just a quick little search on whether there was any information, if Nell Battle had any queer tendencies.

katy:

Oh,

Mandy:

no, there's no information on that whatsoever. She actually was married once, very briefly for one year.

katy:

Okay. I mean, being married is no, like,

Mandy:

No, no. Yeah, no, it's not any sort of proof.

katy:

but mm-hmm.

Mandy:

No. The interesting thing though, about why they divorced because after that she never remarried, although she was engaged briefly. One other time, is the accounts of why they divorced was mainly because of conflicting expectations. In marriage and what she should have been doing as a wife and her independent nature and role and activism.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

her relationship apparently did seem to suffer from the role that she was taking. So,

katy:

Yeah, it

Mandy:

interesting.

katy:

what, what an important case, this woman. So I, as

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

it was to read about it, I'm glad we did. So the

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

part of the book moves into a different era, and we're going to be reading about examples from 1942 to 1974, and the, the title is so intriguing, partisan Betrayals a Bad Woman. Weak white men and the end of their party. So

Mandy:

Hmm.

katy:

wait.

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

it's scratching all my, like reality TV itches for the week.

Mandy:

Love it. I

katy:

but

Mandy:

love it. Okay.

katy:

Of course, as always, and please make sure you're subscribed and if you like what we're doing to please rate it. I mean I of course if you don't like it, I gotta. Leave comments too, but why are you listening? If you don't like it, just don't listen. But just, yeah, thanks to everyone who is listening and reading along with this book and we're just excited to keep moving through. So

Mandy:

All right, we'll talk to you soon. Bye.

katy:

Bye.