Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 5

Transcript

0:00

Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.

Mandy 0:14

Hi,

katy 0:15

Hi.

Mandy 0:17

how are you?

katy 0:18

I'm good. I'm happy to see you

Mandy 0:19

I'm happy to you.

katy 0:20

for

Mandy 0:20

know,

katy 0:21

week in a row.

Mandy 0:23

I know. This is amazing.

katy 0:25

I, I feel like maybe that's

Mandy 0:26

I feel

katy 0:27

like a, a low bar for people who want to have a podcast to just record regularly, but I am really proud of us.

Mandy 0:34

well, we've got a lot going on. I mean, we've said it is super hard. It's very hard. Kids are going back to school next week here in Nevada, so that may or may not help. I always feel like the summer is gonna be better, and then I'm like, I don't know. I don't think it is. I,

katy 0:50

Mm. I don't think it is either. I

Mandy 0:51

I don't,

katy 0:52

I mean, I love summer, but I, it feels like a less structured, just more unpredictable kind of time of year and I, I feel

Mandy 1:02

yeah.

katy 1:02

a lot more guilt associated with Summer. Like there's some sort of

Mandy 1:06

Mm-hmm.

katy 1:07

I'm supposed to be providing my children and

Mandy 1:10

Yeah.

katy 1:10

to provide.

Mandy 1:11

Yeah. You're supposed to be more present, more involved in things and

katy 1:16

failing

Mandy 1:16

another. Mm-hmm.

katy 1:18

all those, all those voices of, you know, what capitalism and white supremacy that we should just learn to totally ignore it. Not that all of

Mandy 1:26

Not that all those

katy 1:26

my head are

Mandy 1:27

voices in head

katy 1:28

a lot of them are. So I can

Mandy 1:29

a lot.

katy 1:30

take it down a

Mandy 1:31

Take it down.

katy 1:32

we Chapter

Mandy 1:33

we're

katy 1:33

of Elizabeth Gillespie, Mcgras mothers of Massive Resistance. And I will be

Mandy 1:39

I,

katy 1:40

that I read this literally right before, and Mandy was very kind in giving me extra time to prepare. But I'm so glad I did. It was great.

Mandy 1:50

well, you probably still will have retained more than I do because I feel like. I feel like it's not my comprehension that's a problem. It's definitely retention. That's a problem.'cause I listened to this on the audio book version'cause I, as I drove up to Utah earlier this week,'cause I'm visiting my parents. And then I read it yesterday

katy 2:11

Okay.

Mandy 2:12

and, and I didn't remember most of what I read. I was like, oh, I listened to this. Huh. I wonder what else my mind was thinking of as it was playing in the car.'cause I don't remember this at all.

katy 2:24

It's like none of the ways to retain information or helping me anymore. I was just thinking about how when I was in high

Mandy 2:31

I,

katy 2:31

where, I mean, we were in high school together, but I did plays and now

Mandy 2:35

mm-hmm.

katy 2:35

I, I

Mandy 2:36

I, I

katy 2:38

there are things I

Mandy 2:38

there

katy 2:39

about

Mandy 2:40

about

katy 2:40

and

Mandy 2:40

being a theater and sometimes

katy 2:42

I get involved in community theater here?

Mandy 2:43

theater.

katy 2:44

know I cannot. I, there's no way I would ever be able to remember anything.

Mandy 2:49

Lines. Yeah. No

katy 2:51

I read Bo the same. Every

Mandy 2:55

Every

katy 2:56

time I put him to bed and it is not, there aren't even that many lines of text. It's called Grandfather Twilight. If anyone knows this book, it's really lovely and like a nice goodnight book. could not tell

Mandy 3:07

would not tell you. I know this, this,

katy 3:09

repeat any of the lines and I've read it

Mandy 3:11

and I read it.

katy 3:12

at this

Mandy 3:12

Yeah. Well, I will get like the, you know, the six digit text codes to log to something and I'll be like, I can remember this. I can go from my phone to my computer and remember these six digits. No,

katy 3:27

no.

Mandy 3:27

no, I cannot.

katy 3:29

This is

Mandy 3:29

It's, it's terrible.

katy 3:31

are times where like, I was almost in tears last night. I, my daughter had lost a brush and. I thought, oh, it might actually be like, really under her bed. And so I got under and dug around and found

Mandy 3:44

Around.

katy 3:44

popped up and said to everybody like, ha ha, I found the

Mandy 3:48

I found

katy 3:48

This is so great.

Mandy 3:50

this is so great and it

katy 3:51

15 seconds

Mandy 3:52

15 seconds

katy 3:53

not

Mandy 3:54

that I could not

katy 3:55

And I was almost in tears, like looking at my husband, like, are you guys punking me? Like, are you guys are

Mandy 4:00

Yeah,

katy 4:00

like, no. And I, I spent the

Mandy 4:03

I

katy 4:03

minutes like

Mandy 4:04

next five minutes

katy 4:05

and thinking

Mandy 4:06

and thinking I have lost my mind.

katy 4:09

And it was in a laundry basket. Why don't know

Mandy 4:13

Well

katy 4:14

I

Mandy 4:14

see. That would've been me and it would've been like in my hand while I was searching all over before it like, oh, it's right here. I've done that before. I've walked around the house looking for my phone, like with my phone in my hand, and I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Like where is it?

katy 4:33

oh

Mandy 4:34

it's great.

katy 4:34

I, I

Mandy 4:35

Aging is going well.

katy 4:37

Like if this is where I we're at, at this stage of our lives, it does not bode well for decades in the future. But, you know,

Mandy 4:43

No. No.

katy 4:45

who knows?

Mandy 4:45

So I hope someone's coming up with something, but nobody seems to be coming up with anything to fix the problems that we're having

katy 4:53

I

Mandy 4:53

as a society.

katy 4:55

all anything. Yeah.

Mandy 4:56

No. Mm,

katy 4:57

in some ways like the more I become like a goldfish, maybe the happier I am as a person too. Like it's just allows me to not remember why I was really upset and mad about something 14 seconds ago. You know?

Mandy 5:09

right. Yeah.

katy 5:10

It's like the

Mandy 5:10

It might be true.

katy 5:11

I'm living here. The name of Dory Life. Alright, well this chapter is called Partisan Betrayals. A bad woman, weak white Men, and the End of their Party, the Bad Woman, I think refers to Eleanor Roosevelt.

Mandy 5:24

Yeah, I know. I was fascinated. No, not at all. Although I did feel much better reading this chapter than I felt reading the last chapter.'cause we talked about how my daughter's name is Nell, and in the last chapter, the Nell of that chapter was not someone we really loved. But, but Nell's, my daughter, Nell's full name is actually Eleanor.

katy 5:46

Okay.

Mandy 5:47

And so, and Nell is a nickname. So then I was reading this chapter and I was like, okay, redeemed. It was like,

katy 5:53

We don't have to change her name to something else. Oh gosh.

Mandy 5:57

I feel better. Although another Nelly was also introduced in this chapter too. And I was like, what is with this? Like, I swear this is not a name that was at all popular in any way, but apparently

katy 6:10

Oh.

Mandy 6:11

this network of white women, like

katy 6:13

I, I

Mandy 6:14

it was the whole thing. That, yeah.

katy 6:15

these women

Mandy 6:16

These women would've

katy 6:17

born like in the early 19 hundreds or whatever. It makes me

Mandy 6:20

whatever It makes me think of like,

katy 6:22

Nelly from Little House in the Prairie. Wasn't that her name?

Mandy 6:25

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

katy 6:27

girl. I don't know how else to

Mandy 6:28

Yeah.

katy 6:29

her, but yeah, maybe there

Mandy 6:31

Yeah. Maybe there was of

katy 6:33

floating around. Like it sort of like Katie,

Mandy 6:35

sort of like, I feel like

katy 6:36

growing

Mandy 6:37

when we were growing up

katy 6:38

white Catholic girl I ever met was named Katie, and now I never

Mandy 6:41

Yeah.

katy 6:42

being, maybe there just aren't white Catholic girls being born anymore. That I don't.

Mandy 6:46

One can,

katy 6:47

Fingers crossed. Yeah.

Mandy 6:49

yeah,

katy 6:49

fair enough. Yeah. I'm

Mandy 6:52

it'll come back around. It's all cycles.

katy 6:54

I'm

Mandy 6:54

It is all in a cycle.

katy 6:56

a charming old fashioned name. But anyway so the chapter opens up. It's a, a nice segue chapter, I think from the wound we were learning about in the previous chapters and then taking them into World War II wartime and

Mandy 7:11

Mm-hmm.

katy 7:12

from the Democrats to the Dixiecrats to the Republican

Mandy 7:17

Republican party

katy 7:18

and why that flipped. And just the way that white women were instrumental in that, in, in a way that

Mandy 7:24

in a way that was basically

katy 7:26

women committed to white supremacy being so annoyed with the white men in their

Mandy 7:31

in their,

katy 7:31

Ugh, you can't do anything. We're gonna have to

Mandy 7:34

yeah.

katy 7:34

And like

Mandy 7:35

Yep.

katy 7:35

them away from these forces that were leading to more

Mandy 7:41

More progressive.

katy 7:44

So let's start with with Eleanor Roosevelt and, and FDR. I mean,

Mandy 7:49

Yeah.

katy 7:50

honestly like a whole other rabbit hole. We could

Mandy 7:53

About the

katy 7:53

thinking

Mandy 7:54

down.

katy 7:54

only president we've had who served three terms and just what a unique position he was in during World War ii. And just a, a lot of really fascinating ins and outs to his presidency, I think. And his relationship with Eleanor Roosevelt and her role as

Mandy 8:10

Yeah,

katy 8:11

was really, I think like the first, first lady who, who was super involved. I don't know that

Mandy 8:19

I know that,

katy 8:19

right. So I'm gonna say it.

Mandy 8:21

right. I mean, I don't remember learning about many other first ladies,

katy 8:26

nothing.

Mandy 8:27

but yeah, just, just was clearly not taught. That's for sure.

katy 8:32

know.

Mandy 8:33

but neither was like this history of Eleanor Roosevelt. I didn't know she was such a controversial figure or so influential

katy 8:42

Yeah,

Mandy 8:43

Yeah,

katy 8:43

rod at

Mandy 8:44

a lightning rod at one point. I think

katy 8:46

even the word that's used. But I, I think like, just to

Mandy 8:49

they, I think

katy 8:49

our, I

Mandy 8:50

refresher I

katy 8:51

this so much further than we are going to get into, but just thinking about World War II this really pivotal catalyst in

Mandy 8:59

catalyst in so many ways,

katy 9:01

when

Mandy 9:01

especially.

katy 9:02

desegregation efforts, because you had men and women, black men and women who were serving in the military

Mandy 9:10

Military. Mm-hmm.

katy 9:12

V campaign, which was victory against the Nazis and against fascists, but also victory at home against fascism at home, basically like pointing out that these were not actually so different. It made me wonder,

Mandy 9:26

Wonder

katy 9:27

to be honest,

Mandy 9:28

to be honest, like how it was

katy 9:31

patriotic

Mandy 9:32

patriot,

katy 9:32

against the Nazis whipped up. Because

Mandy 9:35

because

katy 9:36

is

Mandy 9:36

there really is so much

katy 9:38

and

Mandy 9:38

common and so much mm-hmm.

katy 9:41

like,

Mandy 9:41

yeah, I mean, we discussed that all in our eugenics season that we did too, where we talked about how much of like the Nazis and Hitler's campaigns actually drew upon, like the eugenics movements that were happening in the United States. So yeah, it is kind of baffling

katy 9:59

And

Mandy 9:59

there was

katy 10:00

like

Mandy 10:01

what.

katy 10:01

we were

Mandy 10:01

Remember we were learning

katy 10:02

Charles Lindberg, this famous pilot, and he was very openly pro-Nazi

Mandy 10:08

Nazi, and there were absolutely

katy 10:11

leaders who not anti-Nazi. But it is just interesting to me how that that patriotism like the anti-Nazi patriotism. got translated to pro-US. It's like, oh, I don't think a

Mandy 10:27

don't think a lot of these white women.

katy 10:29

about what that would then mean. You know,

Mandy 10:31

Mm-hmm.

katy 10:32

like the questioning

Mandy 10:33

these,

katy 10:33

segregation.

Mandy 10:34

women were doing it.

katy 10:35

did.

Mandy 10:36

white women were doing the math. They knew what was happening. They were like, this is not okay with us and we've gotta figure out a way to combat this. But it is also to me interesting then to see how, again, the stories of history get told and all of that. Part of it gets erased. Like there was clearly a lot of opposition to the US getting into the, the wars, and I think that gets lost once we move past it. Once the victory happened, it was like, oh yeah, no, everybody was always on board. Everybody always thought the Nazis were bad and they wanted to, you know, save the Jews. It's like that was absolutely not what a huge portion of the population felt at that point in time.

katy 11:23

of antisemitism in the

Mandy 11:24

Tons of antisemitism

katy 11:25

and

Mandy 11:26

Mm-hmm.

katy 11:26

lots of pro fascism in the United States, that clearly has not gone away. So yes, I agree. I think that is the danger of the way that history often gets learned or taught is like very simplistic, good guy, bad guy. We were all for this. That that doesn't make sense because if that was the case of what you know, it just, if you think about it for two seconds, you will, the complexity comes flooding in. But I think that's the hope is that nobody thinks about it for more than two seconds. So this is really where the massive. Support for segregation transformed into massive resistance. That's a quote from page one 10, where they, their job, the job of these white women was really to like, get white people to keep caring about maintaining white supremacy and just really like keeping it tight, you know? And, and then because of World War II and all these big changes in the federal government and FDRs, like a bunch of things happening, they were put on defense instead of offense. At least that's how I took it, to

Mandy 12:25

Yeah,

katy 12:26

do whatever they could to, to put a stop to the, the dismantling of white supremacy.

Mandy 12:32

what's

katy 12:33

sad is that the

Mandy 12:33

sad is that

katy 12:34

yes,

Mandy 12:35

like

katy 12:35

were important and

Mandy 12:36

are important and powerful and honestly

katy 12:37

chapter like, how did anything ever happen

Mandy 12:40

happen. Mm-hmm.

katy 12:41

But it's also

Mandy 12:42

It's

katy 12:43

it.

Mandy 12:43

not like.

katy 12:44

It was wildly successful

Mandy 12:46

successful,

katy 12:47

was really happening

Mandy 12:48

really happening. Yeah.

katy 12:49

and in all sorts of structural ways. It's like, oh my God, it wasn't even, it just does not

Mandy 12:53

It just does not take much progress.

katy 12:55

the fuck out. Let's put it that

Mandy 12:57

Mm-hmm.

katy 12:58

So,

Mandy 12:59

Yes. Which also continues along today,

katy 13:02

Hello. So

Mandy 13:04

Yeah. Yeah.

katy 13:05

into the the, the ways that

Mandy 13:07

way that,

katy 13:08

their freak out

Mandy 13:09

mm-hmm.

katy 13:10

one way that showed up was them really hating, super publicly hating Eleanor Roosevelt.

Mandy 13:16

Yeah, so she says that. And this is the bottom of page one 10. Southern white women reconfigured white supremacist politics during this time in three ways. And the first one was they understood Eleanor Roosevelt as embodying the political betrayal of the Democratic Party. For some women, the fractures in their partisan loyalty became salient in their wartime critiques of the first lady she served as a gendered threat to racial segregation and a racialized threat to white southern womanhood. So she basically was just the opposite of everything that white southern women had ever thought of themselves to be, had taught their children to be and what they thought was the correct way to live. And so they just took everything that she did and basically just raked her over the coals in news articles and like her political travels. And there was this one story where she had gone to Livingston College, which was a black college and university. And she spent the day with them there at that. And then that evening she went and then addressed like, it seems like a more white audience, the General Convention of Christian Education. American Methodist, Episcopal Zion Church, and then the DAR, the UDC, the PTA. But then at night she went back and dined with black women and men and that just set people completely off. They basically said, you know, whatever northerners want to do above the Mason Dixon line, they can do, but you can't bring that down to the south. And so it got to, it was at the point where after she did that, the women in that area refused to even provide overnight accommodations for her, and she had to travel back up north because no one would let her stay with them.

katy 15:12

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 15:13

Which just seems just wild. I mean, I guess there weren't hotels,

katy 15:18

Well, I know the, yeah, right.

Mandy 15:20

like you're just staying with people in their houses. I suppose that is the way it happened.

katy 15:24

made me

Mandy 15:25

It made me think,

katy 15:26

the, oh, these are the

Mandy 15:27

oh, these are the invert,

katy 15:28

kind of petty detective. Like they're, they're

Mandy 15:31

they're, they're

katy 15:32

ness as a tool for

Mandy 15:33

as.

katy 15:34

Like they, it says that they thought she was worth monitoring because she was doing all these things that made them so mad. And so just again, thinking about like pre-social media, the way that these women were able to keep tabs on her and get pissed about the smallest things and then turn those into big things like, they were, they

Mandy 15:53

They were, they were,

katy 15:54

Boy Scouts trying to integrate a 4th of July parade. Like again, nothing is small enough for them not to be awful about it. You know, like just all of the things Yeah. There were other stories too about how they were

Mandy 16:10

were

katy 16:10

that

Mandy 16:11

frustrated

katy 16:11

attended

Mandy 16:12

attended.

katy 16:13

hosted a dance where

Mandy 16:15

Mm-hmm.

katy 16:16

interracial dancing and people were really mad about that. And it was

Mandy 16:20

And it was all kind of this idea like telling

katy 16:22

way, all

Mandy 16:24

we'll all be integrated and

katy 16:26

she has gone

Mandy 16:27

had gone way too far away

katy 16:29

to the

Mandy 16:29

letters to the editor about this. They're writing articles about this.

katy 16:32

are

Mandy 16:32

They also are then suggesting like probably they probably want to have sex.

katy 16:39

men. And

Mandy 16:40

Oh yeah. Like the personal place that they took these attacks against her and her family was just, Ima, I mean, they questioned like her relationship with FDR and like their marriage might must not have been good, like, because, and then she must have wanted to have sex with black men, and then they must have wanted, like, her sons to marry black women. I mean, it's just the, the nastiness that it turned into at that point in time was just shocking. But not shocking in a way. I mean,

katy 17:12

isn't Eleanor Roosevelt also now people look back and they're like, oh, she's probably lesbian. So I'm like,

Mandy 17:16

yeah,

katy 17:17

they

Mandy 17:17

like they were wrong. Like they were very wrong

katy 17:20

had

Mandy 17:20

if only they had known, you know?

katy 17:22

I think that it is like this, it just keeps boiling down to white women protecting white supremacy in the most

Mandy 17:31

Mm-hmm.

katy 17:31

ways, like

Mandy 17:33

Yeah.

katy 17:33

relationships, friendships, eating. having sex with

Mandy 17:37

Having sex.

katy 17:38

just

Mandy 17:38

Like she's, she's monitoring all of those domestic and

katy 17:42

so

Mandy 17:43

so carefully and just really

katy 17:46

so,

Mandy 17:47

so,

katy 17:48

angry

Mandy 17:48

angry about it.

katy 17:50

There was one

Mandy 17:51

was one part here where Elizabeth

katy 17:53

is

Mandy 17:54

talking

katy 17:54

specifically about

Mandy 17:55

specifically about how this mother thing

katy 17:57

for

Mandy 17:57

and that for these,

katy 17:59

good

Mandy 17:59

for good white others,

katy 18:01

their job was

Mandy 18:02

that their job was to

katy 18:03

who

Mandy 18:03

children to maintain appropriate racial dis

katy 18:05

taught a

Mandy 18:06

show the schools of curriculum in line with white supremacy politics told stories are educated the larger public on the natural myth of racial segregation.

katy 18:12

it cannot be

Mandy 18:13

And it cannot be defined

katy 18:14

It

Mandy 18:15

by the, it came to be, excuse me, defined by the same complicated rules, except that white mothers had to guarantee that their children weren't in, adhere to the land who were segregation.

katy 18:24

And if they did

Mandy 18:25

And if they did not follow segregated

katy 18:27

threatening

Mandy 18:27

ation, they're threatening without raising of white supremacy. So this how, again, like all these things that maybe seen.

katy 18:33

smaller,

Mandy 18:34

Smaller, even insignificant all of a sudden. Mm-hmm.

katy 18:37

but it's,

Mandy 18:38

But it's, it's that,

katy 18:40

they're

Mandy 18:40

that they're monitoring

katy 18:41

really

Mandy 18:42

all

katy 18:42

things with and just using

Mandy 18:44

just using all their power to

katy 18:45

call her

Mandy 18:46

call her out.

katy 18:47

that I

Mandy 18:47

The part that I got was, and some of

katy 18:50

the,

Mandy 18:51

the,

katy 18:51

of the times

Mandy 18:52

all of the times that they used the

katy 18:54

oh, my

Mandy 18:55

like, oh, my black friend, oh my gosh.

katy 18:57

like

Mandy 18:58

Yeah.

katy 18:58

like, no, none of the black people I know like are saying anything,

Mandy 19:03

saying anything. So

katy 19:04

with

Mandy 19:04

they must be fine with it.

katy 19:06

ways that they, these white women that we've been learning about

Mandy 19:09

That we've been learning about black,

katy 19:10

to use, like

Mandy 19:12

like, like process

katy 19:14

any black people in their lives as justification for white supremacy was especially gross. I don't know

Mandy 19:19

gross. Yeah.

katy 19:20

or stories that

Mandy 19:22

Yeah. Well, yeah. All of those same things for sure. She says like, kind of alluding to that. Part about them talking about their black friends and all the black people. They, I mean, I say friends in quotes. That's like the people that worked for them and their, A lot of

katy 19:37

black

Mandy 19:37

Yeah.

katy 19:38

I, I'm sure right?

Mandy 19:40

Yeah. No.

katy 19:41

Uhhuh.

Mandy 19:42

but she says that like these, this southern whites were nowhere near ready to admit that black southerners were disaffected with the South's racial hierarchy. And so they turned their anger towards the Democratic party and towards Eleanor Roosevelt And

katy 19:58

her for lynching.

Mandy 19:59

blamed her.

katy 20:00

mind. Like

Mandy 20:01

Yeah.

katy 20:01

massive race riots that were horrifying, terrifying acts of racial

Mandy 20:05

Acts of racial

katy 20:06

and lynching on the rise.

Mandy 20:08

on the ride

katy 20:08

white women came out and

Mandy 20:10

came out and

katy 20:12

blamed Eleanor Roosevelt said, it's her

Mandy 20:14

Yeah.

katy 20:15

she's drumming people up. She's making people

Mandy 20:18

People.

katy 20:19

like, it's

Mandy 20:20

Yeah,

katy 20:20

don't even

Mandy 20:21

they don't wanna,

katy 20:22

about

Mandy 20:22

yep. Yeah. Mary Dawson Kane, who's one of the women we learned about earlier, published an open letter to Eleanor Roosevelt, blaming her for three brutal lynchings of two black teenage boys and a Laurel, Mississippi farmer. They called her the ringleader of racial agitation, basically saying like, if you wouldn't go and intermingle and spend time with these people, they would be content in their place, is really how they saw it. They're like, you're making them discontented,

katy 20:54

right.

Mandy 20:55

is making them then fight for rights, which then we must answer with lynchings and VA and violence. So this is your fault for basically agreeing that they could rise above anything

katy 21:10

Or even encouraging

Mandy 21:11

except for where we put them.

katy 21:13

bagger, s scally, wag, put these ideas into their head. You, Northern

Mandy 21:16

Mm-hmm.

katy 21:17

like they

Mandy 21:18

Yep.

katy 21:18

wanted this or

Mandy 21:19

Wanted

katy 21:19

and like, I don't wanna

Mandy 21:20

and like, I don't wanna pretend that

katy 21:21

be Candace Owens in the

Mandy 21:24

Owens in the 1940s. Right.

katy 21:26

Like I'm sure there were no, again, like no group is monolithic, but you cannot tell

Mandy 21:31

you cannot

katy 21:31

living under the

Mandy 21:33

under the threat of,

katy 21:35

violence have their

Mandy 21:37

have their employer

katy 21:38

and say, do you want this? Like,

Mandy 21:40

say like

katy 21:40

do you think

Mandy 21:41

what kind.

katy 21:41

Like they're not going

Mandy 21:42

Mm-hmm.

katy 21:43

your fa, are you kidding me? Like, it's just so obvious why

Mandy 21:46

Why

katy 21:47

be

Mandy 21:47

people would be silent or would be less,

katy 21:50

in their agreement or whatever, you

Mandy 21:53

whatever. Mm-hmm.

katy 21:54

even in themselves, like, be afraid of those changes because they're

Mandy 21:57

They're,

katy 21:58

Like, all of those

Mandy 21:59

all of those things are,

katy 22:00

And,

Mandy 22:01

yeah.

katy 22:01

of those things endorse white supremacy as a system at all.

Mandy 22:05

Yep. Yep.

katy 22:06

the

Mandy 22:06

Yeah.

katy 22:07

thought was especially intriguing with this, which the woman writing this book, Elizabeth Gillespie Mc Gray, mentioned several times,

Mandy 22:15

Several times is that

katy 22:16

up of Eleanor Roosevelt as the, the like devil

Mandy 22:20

devil incarnate? Mm-hmm.

katy 22:22

traditions. not only

Mandy 22:25

only

katy 22:25

kind of

Mandy 22:26

that kind of,

katy 22:27

Blame to put on her, but doing that actually

Mandy 22:30

that actually,

katy 22:31

these black

Mandy 22:32

yes. Yes.

katy 22:32

and like took agency away and, and

Mandy 22:36

And, and turn black people into objects

katy 22:39

they are

Mandy 22:39

because they're still

katy 22:41

white people

Mandy 22:41

white people are

katy 22:43

who

Mandy 22:43

the only people who are acting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy 22:45

are the subjects who just kind of sit there while we battle it out. And so the

Mandy 22:51

Yeah.

katy 22:51

all this black leadership, all this work all of this activism, like it's, it's just a complete erasure. I don't know how else to

Mandy 22:58

Yeah. And then away as she says this, like exactly what you're saying. On one 17, which I had underlined and starred, it said, in blaming Eleanor, white, Southern women diminished the validity of black protest, took away black initiated violence as a political strategy and elevated the role white women played in a segregated nation. So again, just this focus, even in, for someone who was being more progressive, it again takes the focus and puts it back on white people and white women specifically in this. And yeah, I, I, it was another one where I was just like, oh, yet another angle that I had never considered embarrassingly

katy 23:40

And it is

Mandy 23:41

just not

katy 23:42

oh, this is like an, like a double chocolate ice cream cone that's dipped in chocolate

Mandy 23:47

Chocolate. Mm-hmm.

katy 23:48

not

Mandy 23:48

Mm-hmm. Not only are they.

katy 23:50

racism, but in the way that they're choosing to blame and even

Mandy 23:55

People and even who they set up as their going itself. Also, it's like

katy 23:59

many

Mandy 24:00

just too many levels of racism.

katy 24:01

to bleed. You know? I

Mandy 24:04

Yeah. Yeah.

katy 24:04

was in my scrolling on YouTube when I'm VEing out at night just staring off into space, I had just watched this video, that was super interesting

Mandy 24:14

interesting about our

katy 24:16

and the way that

Mandy 24:17

and the way that open,

katy 24:18

like open

Mandy 24:19

like open concept.

katy 24:21

Are connected to white supremacy. And I was like, I'm listening.

Mandy 24:26

Yeah.

katy 24:27

it

Mandy 24:27

What, tell me

katy 24:28

to

Mandy 24:28

It was connected to racism

katy 24:29

and so it

Mandy 24:30

and so it all connects at once. Page one 50

katy 24:34

The author is talking

Mandy 24:35

author talking about how it wasn't the patient developer Roosevelt, but also they

katy 24:38

These white women got interested in labor policies

Mandy 24:41

mm-hmm.

katy 24:42

were really opposed to labor

Mandy 24:45

labor rights and.

katy 24:47

and, you know, started to

Mandy 24:48

You know, started to label

katy 24:49

agitators or whatever. They were

Mandy 24:51

whatever. Mm-hmm.

katy 24:52

labor unrest or work to protect workers. And they,

Mandy 24:56

And they

katy 24:57

about

Mandy 24:57

it talks about how some white women complain that domestic service

katy 25:01

the promise of better jobs to

Mandy 25:02

better.

katy 25:03

and west. And this

Mandy 25:05

And this then

katy 25:05

connected to this

Mandy 25:06

connected with the video watch, which you talks about how in the early 19 hundreds, floor plans were middle class, one

katy 25:13

always had

Mandy 25:14

always had surface orders,

katy 25:15

the

Mandy 25:16

and all the, were very distinct

katy 25:18

were

Mandy 25:18

were

katy 25:19

the workspaces

Mandy 25:20

work faces were the,

katy 25:21

they

Mandy 25:22

and they

katy 25:22

hazards

Mandy 25:23

were fire hazards,

katy 25:23

and

Mandy 25:24

smelling, whatever. Mm-hmm.

katy 25:26

contained in their own space, maybe even in the basement, but like off in their own space.

Mandy 25:31

Mm-hmm.

katy 25:32

there were domestic servants quarters, but as in this era, like

Mandy 25:37

Era.

katy 25:38

like 1940s and the even before that, like the great migration north, that as there are more

Mandy 25:44

There are more opportunities, members

katy 25:47

for

Mandy 25:47

of communities, for people

katy 25:48

efforts.

Mandy 25:49

efforts and

katy 25:50

are

Mandy 25:51

there are big

katy 25:52

unions and there is

Mandy 25:54

and

katy 25:54

opportunity, that those

Mandy 25:56

that those,

katy 25:57

all women of color. And so that.

Mandy 25:59

and so that

katy 26:01

like servant base kind of

Mandy 26:02

based

katy 26:04

And the

Mandy 26:04

and, and the response

katy 26:06

to just

Mandy 26:06

was

katy 26:07

okay,

Mandy 26:07

like, okay, white woman, I guess it's your job now.

katy 26:10

things. And so

Mandy 26:12

And so

katy 26:12

wanted to still be connected to their family

Mandy 26:15

their,

katy 26:15

aren't the servant. And hence the open floor plan was now to have like, because the,

Mandy 26:21

because

katy 26:21

wife and mother no longer

Mandy 26:24

longer is exploiting the labor of women of color in her household.

katy 26:28

to be

Mandy 26:29

He wants

katy 26:29

of the family.

Mandy 26:30

of family

katy 26:31

to like 1950s and sixties open floor plan concepts, which like continue today to be like the thing. And there's other parts of it

Mandy 26:39

yeah.

katy 26:40

The ways that people socialized and a

Mandy 26:43

And

katy 26:43

living

Mandy 26:43

that formal living room

katy 26:44

sense. So

Mandy 26:45

longer sense.

katy 26:46

of

Mandy 26:46

You know, a lot of factors, but one of the factors

katy 26:49

to this exact issue. And it's basically

Mandy 26:53

basically like

katy 26:54

A physical

Mandy 26:55

physical manifestation of

katy 26:58

especially

Mandy 26:58

especially for

katy 26:59

upper class women to

Mandy 27:00

women.

katy 27:01

like white middle class women in

Mandy 27:03

Women,

katy 27:03

they don't have the money for servants

Mandy 27:07

Yeah.

katy 27:07

do all this labor that's expected of them, but still be part of the family. Isn't that fascinating

Mandy 27:12

Hmm. That is fascinating.

katy 27:13

disturbing,

Mandy 27:14

so many of these things that like, I think I definitely haven't thought of, so that I know that probably a lot of people don't think about either. And then when you connect the dots, you just see how deeply entrenched it all it is. Like when people don't understand what systemic racism is, they think racism's over because you know, we no longer. We'll use the n word in public, you know, like that's we're we had a black president. We, yeah. Like it's over. Like, my, my child has a black friend. There's no such thing as racism anymore. You know, it's like, no, these things are so systemically ingrained in every single part of our society. I mean, this, this chapter did nothing to help my hatred of state's rights as an argument for things.'cause I was like, see, I was right. I've always been right. Like the state's rights bullshit and this like distrust of the federal government and this not wanting, she talks on page one 17 too, about this wedge that federal aid. Posed to states they did not want to accept federal aid because they saw, like, it comes with strings. Like, if we accept this aid, then they're going to be able to tell us how to use it. And so we're not gonna do it because we can see what's coming down the road from this. And this is still continued. It's like why I could, I can't understand, like the states that don't accept the Medicaid expansions, you know, like how, how would you not take money for healthcare to decrease the costs for people in your state? It's all connected back to this. It's because they don't want the strings that are attached to it because they wanna continue doing the, you know, racist, exploitative bullshit kind of things. And they can't do that when the federal, federal government gets involved.

katy 29:14

right.

Mandy 29:14

And so they would rather. Decline any sort of assistance so that they continue doing things their way than to accept the federal aid and have to take what comes along with it, which is

katy 29:26

Before we,

Mandy 29:27

before we I.

katy 29:28

into the federal aid side of things as the other thing that these women really cared about at this time and still continue to care about. There were so many things that I was like, oh, today, today, today, today. Circling throughout. I just wanted to note with Eleanor Roosevelt and thinking about first ladies who become lightning rods for defenders of white supremacy, and I would love us to do another kind of set of episodes or mini episodes or whatever, about Michelle Obama became that for the, and just what she had to endure or the, the vitriol aimed at her. And

Mandy 30:03

And

katy 30:04

been fascinated, and again, I need to dive into just the ways that

Mandy 30:08

that.

katy 30:08

same people who lost their goddamn minds, like every day. It's about something related to Michelle Obama. Have nothing to say about Melania Trump. Like I, you know, just how like what, what that hatred and what that criticism was stemming from.

Mandy 30:24

Well, and

katy 30:26

it, I just, I'm so curious.

Mandy 30:27

I'm so curious, like their, their anti

katy 30:30

is not applied

Mandy 30:31

not slide.

katy 30:32

herself is an immigrant. Like, I just have so

Mandy 30:34

Like, I just have so many questions for like, the ways that

katy 30:38

there's pictures of her posing nude on a bare skinned rug, and it's like

Mandy 30:41

and mm-hmm.

katy 30:43

that

Mandy 30:43

That

katy 30:44

has escaped any of the standards or any of the things that they care about and

Mandy 30:49

care about and advocate for and,

katy 30:50

just unleashed on Michelle Obama in this, like, what had to have been horrific, totally

Mandy 30:56

oh,

katy 30:57

way. Like I don't, I, the fact that she's like functioning

Mandy 31:01

functioning.

katy 31:02

and love and humor and like all of that is just

Mandy 31:04

All of that.

katy 31:05

to me.

Mandy 31:05

Yeah.

katy 31:06

yeah. I think that the, we need a first ladies branch of this podcast that just dives

Mandy 31:11

Yeah. Well, and the connection also to the Maha movement, the Make America healthy and, and how the utter shit show tantrum that Republicans threw when Michelle Obama tried to make school lunches healthier and calling her a communist, and like saying that she was taking away like parental rights by trying to make kids eat healthier. And now they're acting like they're some saviors of health and like

katy 31:40

Unbelievable.

Mandy 31:41

Yeah. The hypocrisy. The hypocrisy.

katy 31:44

Again, I don't, I don't know how people who are involved in those campaigns, like how they, they don't just explode from sheer frustration with that hypocrisy. I don't get it. But

Mandy 31:56

Yeah.

katy 31:56

into the, the federal aid and federal regulations, especially around labor,

Mandy 32:02

Yeah,

katy 32:03

exclusively.

Mandy 32:04

It,

katy 32:04

does just,

Mandy 32:05

it does it

katy 32:05

labor,

Mandy 32:06

labor.

katy 32:07

connected

Mandy 32:08

so much connect with all of this, like when people are

katy 32:10

from

Mandy 32:10

away from the work,

katy 32:12

a

Mandy 32:12

that's when a lot of women,

katy 32:13

white women

Mandy 32:14

white women here and

katy 32:16

workforce in

Mandy 32:17

work,

katy 32:17

that they had not been before. And that is

Mandy 32:20

and that is one of those

katy 32:22

pads for, you know, additional waves of feminism was having. You know, different

Mandy 32:27

different

katy 32:28

opportunities

Mandy 32:29

Mm-hmm.

katy 32:30

was needed with men away at war. But then when you

Mandy 32:33

But then when you have those members,

katy 32:35

and unions are

Mandy 32:36

union

katy 32:36

too, because there some unions were advocating for gender and racial equality, but a lot of other

Mandy 32:42

a

katy 32:42

were actually mouthpieces for white supremacy and for sexism to say, we're gonna protect jobs for white men returning.

Mandy 32:49

mm-hmm.

katy 32:49

we don't want mixing in the workplace because that will lead to, again,

Mandy 32:53

Again.

katy 32:54

clutcher pearls, watch out. You like that being just the core fear, God forbid

Mandy 33:00

God forbid.

katy 33:00

interracial

Mandy 33:01

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

katy 33:03

there's just a

Mandy 33:03

Yeah. And the war, the, yeah. And the whole wartime efforts and the need for labor at that time, which then gave the base of people who were laboring some power to unionize and to make demands, which then was met by all of this hysterics from Southerners who were just like, how dare you demand 5 cents more an hour when our white sons are off fighting this war? They saw it as like anti patriotic

katy 33:34

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 33:35

support labor in any sort of way. And FDR, it seems from what they was in this chapter, was more of support of laborers,

katy 33:45

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 33:46

just gave them another reason to be angry at him. So they talk about like some specific strikes in the coal industry,

katy 33:56

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 33:57

and about the war, like a bill that came out after that called the Smith Connolly War Labor Disputes Bill, which basically granted the president the power to like seize any sort of industrial plant in wartime and to outlaw strikes in those industries. And also to ban political contributions by labor unions, which that part Yeah. Maybe not such a bad idea given Yeah. You

katy 34:26

Like money and

Mandy 34:27

know,

katy 34:27

is a whole other

Mandy 34:28

Uhhuh.

katy 34:28

too.

Mandy 34:29

Yeah. And Roosevelt actually, that was a bill that he vetoed because it took power away from workers and then Congress overrode his veto pretty immediately after that. So this is just setting up more of that. Discontent that southern de people who had always consider themselves southern Democrats had with FDR, with the new deal, with like this new kind of change in the Democratic party. And one more thing that they were just pissed off about because they saw it as an attack on their way of life, but also on their white husbands and white sons who are out fighting and not being supportive of them. And then fear for what roles they would have when they came back from the war too. Well

katy 35:15

and it's laying the groundwork

Mandy 35:16

the ground.

katy 35:16

the Cold War because it's also very anti-communist, you know? And,

Mandy 35:20

Mm-hmm.

katy 35:20

connecting communist support to civil rights support, to

Mandy 35:24

Support

katy 35:25

like connecting all these dots and then being

Mandy 35:28

and being against all of them. And it was,

katy 35:31

I wrote in the margins that this is just such circular logic because there was this idea that this is gosh, I can't think of her first name. Ogden is her last name that

Mandy 35:41

oh yeah. Mm-hmm.

katy 35:42

She has this weekly column called

Mandy 35:46

Called my dear. Oh my gosh,

katy 35:48

I thought

Mandy 35:49

yes.

katy 35:49

weird. And

Mandy 35:50

Weird. And she

katy 35:51

she, to remedy the

Mandy 35:53

the remedy

katy 35:53

of soldiers, she sent pictures of black laborers picking cotton and white children

Mandy 35:58

and white

katy 35:58

the

Mandy 35:59

on the

katy 35:59

reminders of a system of white over black. And basically promising the boys that when they come home, everything's gonna be exactly the same, and don't worry, like we're holding the fort down.

Mandy 36:09

Yes.

katy 36:09

I thought this idea that she was acting as a composite mother and presenting herself

Mandy 36:14

Mm-hmm.

katy 36:15

of all these white boys who were away from the

Mandy 36:17

Mm-hmm.

katy 36:18

and, you know, she would write about black soldiers, but in super disparaging ways,

Mandy 36:22

Yes. That part was so gross

katy 36:25

they wouldn't, didn't

Mandy 36:27

wouldn't.

katy 36:27

a test or had to come home for some reason. Like what? A, just,

Mandy 36:30

Mm-hmm.

katy 36:30

sucks. Okay. So,

Mandy 36:32

Yeah,

katy 36:32

I

Mandy 36:32

she was terrible.

katy 36:33

Of snarky line. I would love to ask Elizabeth Deloy, meck Ray, just how you write about things a, like how do you keep. snarkiness out, but sometimes I think it comes in a little bit, she says, with little concern for actual facts. Ogden argued that union members were simply not real Americans and they couldn't help it. For love of country is bred into people, and that was her logic is that strikes were proof that those are people with

Mandy 37:02

People

katy 37:02

pride and inferior ethnic background and

Mandy 37:04

background and that all

katy 37:06

therefore

Mandy 37:06

together. So

katy 37:07

Americans. And

Mandy 37:08

yes,

katy 37:09

I turn on the news anymore, like this is

Mandy 37:11

it's the same. Mm-hmm.

katy 37:12

are arguing for, like

Mandy 37:13

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy 37:15

citizenship, why they're, why they're deporting citizens and saying like, eh, no, they're not

Mandy 37:19

They're not really, they're not married.

katy 37:21

just

Mandy 37:22

Yeah.

katy 37:22

it, it's still so, so deep and so current. There was another part. is the other Nelly, the other, the other bat. Nelly, Nelly Nugent, Somerville, which I pictured her as

Mandy 37:34

Mm-hmm.

katy 37:35

of Ted Nugent. Who knows if that's real, but that's my mind what I

Mandy 37:39

Let's just go with it.

katy 37:40

But she, she was arguing that the Constitution created a republic, not a democracy, and therefore not every voice had to be heard. And it was like, oh my God.

Mandy 37:51

Wild.

katy 37:51

it's just so These arguments have never gone away. And they, you know, like I think this

Mandy 37:57

Like, I think

katy 37:58

it connected to this, know, the upheaval of the war and of this push for civil rights and, you know, the, this like the

Mandy 38:10

like the nexus of gender, sex,

katy 38:13

all of it race

Mandy 38:13

all of it. Race class.

katy 38:15

there's this.

Mandy 38:16

when there's this

katy 38:17

of

Mandy 38:17

mix of things that, and

katy 38:19

Just

Mandy 38:19

is happening

katy 38:20

these people come out of the woodwork and the, the more

Mandy 38:23

the, and.

katy 38:24

and direct they get with what

Mandy 38:26

Mm-hmm.

katy 38:26

for, and we hear all of the same things today.

Mandy 38:29

Same arguments. Yeah. So Ogden and one of her columns wrote that this anti-immigrant sentiment that it comes out, that love of country is bred into peoples and the industrial workers, which she described as Eastern European immigrants, lacked the most basic qualification for American citizenship whiteness. She said most of them have come here within the last 30 years, and while many of them have lived in this country and enjoyed its freedom, they cannot love it as we do who are born here.

katy 38:57

So gross. And not even

Mandy 38:59

Ugh.

katy 38:59

born here, but white people, specifically white

Mandy 39:02

Yeah.

katy 39:02

it's just so, it, it, again, it's just this circular logic like, oh, because white Christian people are the reason this exists. They're the only ones who can love it. It's like all of that is wrong. Like, it's not

Mandy 39:12

Mm-hmm.

katy 39:14

like it, and yet it, it just becomes this engine of policy and actions and it just feeds itself over and over and over again. Like it's just what ah, it's so frustrating.

Mandy 39:26

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and the part of the, one of the things I underlined from this Nelly Nugent summer rules column that she wrote that I was like, well, she's not wrong. It's just that this whole practice is wrong. She says, from the earliest times in this republic, the exercise of the election franchise has been protected by qualifications and restrictions.

katy 39:50

Right. That is factual.

Mandy 39:51

But also, but also terrible. So

katy 39:54

Right? Like not something we are celebrating. Or in my, this was me being snarky was like, great. Can't wait for the qualifications to be like, no assholes. Like no

Mandy 40:05

yeah.

katy 40:05

sexist, transphobic, assholes can vote anymore. Like, great. You know? But that to

Mandy 40:10

Yeah.

katy 40:10

just like the, the power of democracy, which hinges upon the, for democracy to work well, people have to give a shit about each other and they have to be informed. Like those,

Mandy 40:26

Yeah.

katy 40:27

really important key components to a democracy working well. And I

Mandy 40:33

Yes. Yep.

katy 40:34

to say next, like, we don't, a, a significant portion of people are neither, neither

Mandy 40:40

Right, right.

katy 40:41

no. So

Mandy 40:42

And this is the part that I have like struggled with in thinking about things like the tests, like the reading tests, the, you know, like things, the poll, taxes, all of that, and like, yes, obviously these were structured in a way to very explicitly exclude black people from being able to vote. On the other hand, I think we might need some sort of an informed test. Like, do you know anything about what you're voting for? Do you understand this in any sort of way before you just check yes or no because your neighbor had a sign or your pastor told you to, or your grandmother's always taught this, like is there some way to enforce some sort of

katy 41:28

no. I mean,

Mandy 41:29

education?

katy 41:30

that's it. Like, no, I think we have

Mandy 41:32

Think,

katy 41:33

do our best to strive for it. It's one of the reasons I care about education so much is not so that everybody, the student I've ever had agrees with me. You know, that's not the point. It's just to help them care

Mandy 41:43

help them care about each other first and foremost,

katy 41:45

then help

Mandy 41:46

and then help them value

katy 41:48

seek out and

Mandy 41:49

and speak out

katy 41:50

how

Mandy 41:50

and know how access information

katy 41:53

could even have the same exact set of values and

Mandy 41:55

set

katy 41:55

to

Mandy 41:56

and still

katy 41:56

I mean, I think we see that through history all the time where

Mandy 41:59

all time. Mm-hmm.

katy 42:00

the same things but, and want the same outcomes, but have different ideas about

Mandy 42:03

Different

katy 42:04

people are always

Mandy 42:05

people are always gonna disagree. That's okay. Yeah.

katy 42:07

think like I. You know, I can understand that desire to have some sort of threshold, but I, I

Mandy 42:14

But I, I just think like the.

katy 42:15

it's too much power. It's too much power for someone to have to say, I get to be the decider about who knows enough and who doesn't. Like, that's just asking for corruption to happen. So it's like we just have to keep it open, do our absolute best to care about each

Mandy 42:31

Care about each other and be informed

katy 42:34

for the best. Like,

Mandy 42:34

for the best. Like, I,

katy 42:35

don't think

Mandy 42:36

I don't, I,

katy 42:36

behind'cause it's just, I wouldn't trust anybody to do a good job of

Mandy 42:40

no, no, it's always, it's always gonna go off the rails, but I still think like our best is not great right now. Like

katy 42:49

there's,

Mandy 42:49

it's,

katy 42:50

I used to assign

Mandy 42:52

real sad

katy 42:53

An opinion piece that was out years ago about not having

Mandy 42:57

not having,

katy 42:58

voting age. Just like literally, literally letting anybody vote, like anyone who's a citizen. And your first reaction might be like, that's insane. And

Mandy 43:06

mm-hmm.

katy 43:06

the article, I was like, actually, these are really great arguments. And honestly, like I

Mandy 43:11

Honestly, like, are my teacher for it, you know,

katy 43:13

about the children who I

Mandy 43:16

I,

katy 43:17

and

Mandy 43:17

and their ability to call

katy 43:19

pretty

Mandy 43:20

out is pretty great. Mm-hmm.

katy 43:21

I don't know, I, except for these two 12-year-old

Mandy 43:24

But then I also,

katy 43:24

on

Mandy 43:25

oh, yes.

katy 43:26

they're like, dear Mrs. Roosevelt, we're pissed. We're, we're in fifth grade and we hate you. And like, we, you're bad. I thought, oh

Mandy 43:33

Yeah, that was on page one 14 where these girls wrote their letter and I loved their, their opening line. I usually do all my own thinking what I think. Yeah. But I am not able to put into words what I think about these, this dance that she hosted where that was like,

katy 43:52

that you let people dance together. I don't know. It's,

Mandy 43:55

yeah, it's too hard. Again, it's hard. And, and I recently, this reminds me kind of a tangent, but recently of a video I saw on Instagram of now these men who are openly advocating for repealing the 19th Amendment.

katy 44:10

It's like, it's so

Mandy 44:12

And so

katy 44:12

It's so

Mandy 44:13

Yeah.

katy 44:14

Yes.

Mandy 44:15

But not, but not completely. They just want, they want their wives. Vote votes, but they, they want to control them. They're like, we should, they should still have a vote, but we get to cast it basically, is what they're saying. And it's the same thing if you, with the, you know, whatever, no age limit that I see that same thing happening with like, sure, well, kids can vote, we have 18 of them, and so we're gonna like

katy 44:40

right. Like they're all coming with us.

Mandy 44:43

Yep. And we're gonna tell'em exactly what they do, you know?

katy 44:46

but it,

Mandy 44:47

Yeah.

katy 44:47

that though, it is like arbitrary line that gets drawn, like, oh, you're 18 or you're 21, or whatever, you know, and it goes, but like, it just, it, any restriction comes with baggage, I guess is my

Mandy 44:58

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy 45:00

like

Mandy 45:00

But it's like,

katy 45:01

too, so Yes, absolutely.

Mandy 45:03

yes. Yeah.

katy 45:04

intentionally having 27 kids to, you know, further the apocalypse or whatever the logic is. I don't

Mandy 45:10

Well, and this is the, the next part that I had highlighted in this chapter about how things go both ways. So there was, you know, this Ms. Ogden who was writing her My Dear Boys column, supporting these soldiers and all of this

katy 45:24

by the way. Where's this

Mandy 45:26

by the

katy 45:26

She called it a

Mandy 45:27

lotions of love.

katy 45:29

was

Mandy 45:30

of Love. What does that mean?

katy 45:33

and I had a lot of questions about

Mandy 45:36

Lotions of love. I don't even understand.

katy 45:39

this column, but go ahead.

Mandy 45:41

Yeah. But despite her, like supposed support for soldiers, she did not support the Soldier Voting Act,

katy 45:52

Right.

Mandy 45:53

which was basically saying that these soldiers who were serving could cast their votes even when they were not at home. And she was against that because what that meant is that black soldiers could also vote

katy 46:08

Right,

Mandy 46:08

they would be able to do it separated from these southern institutions that intimidated them out of voting.

katy 46:16

That's

Mandy 46:16

And

katy 46:17

Yep.

Mandy 46:18

they did not want that to happen. They didn't want them represented, and they were so willing to push to keep them from being represented that they were willing to take the vote away from their own white sons, their own husbands, their own whatever. Because anything to keep the vote away from black people again,

katy 46:38

Yes. It's chilling.

Mandy 46:39

the cartwheels, the gymnastics, the craziness that you have to go through to convince yourself that you're doing the right thing in all of this. I can't, I can't.

katy 46:50

and I think we're moving into like, especially thinking about the 1940s, there are already some, some pretty significant. desegregation cases that have been happening. But of

Mandy 47:02

Happening, but of course.

katy 47:03

of those cases is 1954 Brown v. Board of Education. So I feel like

Mandy 47:07

So I feel like we're, we're kind of to

katy 47:10

involvement

Mandy 47:11

women's involvement in back against this and again,

katy 47:14

lotion

Mandy 47:15

down to lotion model to

katy 47:16

speeches. And she was just constantly speaking to mothers, really, specifically white mothers, and appealing to them to think about you and your children

Mandy 47:27

and

katy 47:27

children to fight what she called ization. It's just so fucking disgusting. And then she's pulling from eugenics to say, segregation comes

Mandy 47:38

Segregation.

katy 47:38

from our ancestors. Race preservation is self preservation. I feel like. Andrew Schultz or any of these like podcast bros are just like jizzing everywhere when they hear this history, like, yes. She's saying of her ancestors, I'm glad mine were white and American. I know every woman around this table is proud of her ancestors who gave us America. Again, it's like

Mandy 47:57

It's like

katy 47:58

you invent this myth

Mandy 48:00

invented

katy 48:01

your

Mandy 48:02

your

katy 48:02

advocacy. Like you, you

Mandy 48:03

mm-hmm.

katy 48:04

that then cycles back on itself to promote that thing that relies on that thing and it's

Mandy 48:09

Thing

katy 48:09

But she says our most dangerous and

Mandy 48:11

The.

katy 48:11

reaching threat facing Americans in 1948 is the threat to the white race. If science or history did not satisfy her audience, she asserted that segregation

Mandy 48:19

Segregates,

katy 48:20

planned it. And I still think he is a better planner than President Truman in his civil rights committee, or even Mrs. Roosevelt

Mandy 48:27

thank you. Seriously. And somebody, okay, I've gotta find where I underline this, but somebody then I think quoting that article said that like her article should be, you know, basically published nationally and it was the second only to the Bible

katy 48:45

geez.

Mandy 48:45

in the sense that she made and the truth that she spoke. And I, I can't see where I underlined that, but somewhere in there I was like, oh, vomit all over the place. Like, just

katy 48:57

Yeah,

Mandy 48:58

terrible.

katy 48:58

well

Mandy 48:59

The,

katy 48:59

ends here with the 1948 presidential election. I

Mandy 49:02

mm-hmm.

katy 49:03

like, my Iowa History nerd alarm was going off throughout this chapter because it mentions John L. Lewis, who was a, a really significant labor leader in all those

Mandy 49:13

In all those

katy 49:14

white women were like freaking out about. He's from Iowa,

Mandy 49:17

from

katy 49:17

then Henry Wallace, who was the candidate for the Progressive party, also from Iowa,

Mandy 49:22

From

katy 49:23

was FDRs. Vice president in his third term, he'd also served as Secretary of Agriculture. And his stance even now

Mandy 49:31

now,

katy 49:31

to

Mandy 49:32

it's hard.

katy 49:32

and not think that would be a fresh campaign today in the year

Mandy 49:36

Mm-hmm.

katy 49:37

But

Mandy 49:38

Mm-hmm.

katy 49:39

I mean the softer

Mandy 49:40

I mean,

katy 49:40

Soviet Union is complicated because Russia was not like there's complications there. But

Mandy 49:45

yeah.

katy 49:46

platforms were explicitly about

Mandy 49:50

about brotherhood and non segregation,

katy 49:52

that he

Mandy 49:53

that

katy 49:53

a hard line

Mandy 49:54

we had borderline demand for racial

katy 49:55

and was

Mandy 49:56

inequality and was also a great reporter of labor rights, and it was just very

katy 50:00

all of those

Mandy 50:01

clear. All of those things aligned. And so it talks about how

katy 50:04

about

Mandy 50:05

the book talks about how.

katy 50:06

candidacy was again, kind of

Mandy 50:09

again, kind of that perfect lightning rod

katy 50:12

all

Mandy 50:12

galvanize all these people together, which is certainly

katy 50:14

Wallace's intention, you know, to

Mandy 50:16

mm-hmm.

katy 50:17

a. Like a common

Mandy 50:19

Common

katy 50:20

enemy for

Mandy 50:21

ending. All people

katy 50:22

around and

Mandy 50:23

together around and say like,

katy 50:24

why

Mandy 50:25

is why

katy 50:26

all be

Mandy 50:27

all,

katy 50:27

or like, this is why we all need to work together. But they were able to

Mandy 50:30

but they were able to frame

katy 50:32

him as

Mandy 50:33

him as this

katy 50:34

person

Mandy 50:34

dangerous person

katy 50:35

these

Mandy 50:35

in all of these categories, and so their

katy 50:39

opposition could

Mandy 50:39

opposition could become explicitly anti, anti-black, anti rights, anti, mm-hmm.

katy 50:46

of those things. And like holding gender,

Mandy 50:49

Gender

katy 50:50

talk about this, but this is

Mandy 50:51

about this. This is also the beginning of, of

katy 50:54

explicitly anti-gay,

Mandy 50:57

gay

katy 50:57

actions. Like the lavender

Mandy 50:59

la

katy 51:00

is not too far away. Like there

Mandy 51:02

away. There were.

katy 51:03

of gay men

Mandy 51:05

Gay men from the government, like

katy 51:07

of these

Mandy 51:07

all these

katy 51:08

together.

Mandy 51:09

together. Mm-hmm.

katy 51:10

we, when we

Mandy 51:11

And

katy 51:11

about reproductive justice, like there was, this was also a lot of sterilization laws coming into play. Like just that eugenics logic at the heart of everything that here's this candidate who comes along, who's representing opposite of

Mandy 51:25

the opposite of all those things. And so it just help them and

katy 51:28

combine

Mandy 51:28

combine their class one. Yeah.

katy 51:32

you know.

Mandy 51:33

Yeah. So even if there were people who might not have been on one side of a labor issue or the other side of the segregation issue, they all felt like they had to come together. They all just got more power. They saw they could defeat these things easier if they all did come together and fight against basically any of these agendas that

katy 51:55

able to

Mandy 51:56

they were.

katy 51:56

we're out democratic

Mandy 51:58

Yeah.

katy 51:58

like, we're gone and we're gonna pull all

Mandy 52:01

Yeah.

katy 52:01

like, we're going to, you know,

Mandy 52:02

All we're gonna do

katy 52:03

And we mentioned this last week was

Mandy 52:05

was

katy 52:05

white

Mandy 52:05

the fact that white women mm-hmm.

katy 52:15

pull their men basically

Mandy 52:18

basically

katy 52:19

other

Mandy 52:19

other

katy 52:20

and

Mandy 52:20

track

katy 52:21

not,

Mandy 52:21

say like, we're not, we're not gonna be charged

katy 52:23

anymore. We're going to do our own thing.

Mandy 52:26

our

katy 52:26

to

Mandy 52:26

own, we're gonna,

katy 52:27

Republican party politics. And that

Mandy 52:30

and that

katy 52:31

their, the era when that

Mandy 52:33

era, when that.

katy 52:34

women were super, super influential in that and, and recreating the. landscape to one that's more familiar to us today.

Mandy 52:43

Yeah. Yeah. I felt like this whole chapter was, because we have said this, we in the past we have always wondered like what happened to the switch with the Republican Democratic Party, the, you know, Lincoln being the Republican party and now it have, having different ideologies and I felt like this chapter was the answer. Like, this is what happened. It's very clear.

katy 53:05

white women

Mandy 53:07

women. Yeah.

katy 53:08

nooks and crannies of that story.

Mandy 53:10

Yeah.

katy 53:10

the last thing I'll say, just to set us up for the next chapter, which is focused on Jim Crow's International Enemies and Nationwide Allies, that another piece of what was pushing changes at a faster

Mandy 53:24

faster rate.

katy 53:25

the international pressure to desegregate and to. More clearly delineate between the United States and Nazi Germany, you know, that there were, there was a lot of international condemnation of what was happening in the United States. And it,

Mandy 53:42

And I'm

katy 53:43

we'll see when we get into this chapter, but something else that has always puzzled me in this era that we're living in, of the combination of issues that people really care about, is there the like intense hostility towards the United Nations and towards government. And it's

Mandy 54:00

Government, and now it makes so much more sense. It's like, oh.

katy 54:03

government because of the strings attached or the commitments, then the UN is like federal government on steroids that has a declaration of human rights and a declaration of children's rights and a declaration of Indigenous rights. It's like, well, yeah, of course not. Like of course that's gonna be even worse. And why you're gonna care about the UN and have all these conspiracy theories and you know, things that

Mandy 54:24

Mm-hmm.

katy 54:24

angry. So yeah, just helping. It's one of those things where you tilt all these issues one way and they seem disconnected and you, you just walk behind the

Mandy 54:33

Walk behind the scenes and they're like, oh, they're all plugged.

katy 54:35

cord. Like they're

Mandy 54:36

Yeah, yeah,

katy 54:37

fueled by the same thing.

Mandy 54:39

yeah. Right. And I think in one way we've looked at all of this history and been discouraged that we're still doing it again. It's like, oh we,

katy 54:50

Hmm.

Mandy 54:50

this has never gone away. This seems to be on repeat.

katy 54:54

Right.

Mandy 54:54

But on the other hand, I'm also like, okay, this seems like a pretty shitty time in history. Some terrible stuff was happening, but we did come out of it somewhat. Obviously we know it went, never went away, but in ways we came out of it and we made some progress. And hopefully that can also happen again. I mean, hopefully there's some sort of, and maybe we can

katy 55:20

It's so

Mandy 55:21

learn the lessons of the past to not

katy 55:25

I have

Mandy 55:25

continue in it.

katy 55:26

I know

Mandy 55:27

I know.

katy 55:27

like the Pollyanna of our partnership to try to say like, don't despair. But I, I have been thinking a lot about unintended consequences for better or for worse. Like Henry Wallace is a candidate, like galvanizes these people, you

Mandy 55:41

Mm-hmm.

katy 55:42

Eleanor Roosevelt, you

Mandy 55:43

Roosevelt.

katy 55:44

galvanized them, pissed them off enough to

Mandy 55:46

Mm-hmm.

katy 55:46

than what they were doing. And it's, so it's interesting to think about like, what are the tactics, what are the strategies, what are we trying to do that will more foundationally fundamentally shift things to be focused on

Mandy 56:04

Find

katy 56:04

caring about each

Mandy 56:05

caring about each other, caring about their earth,

katy 56:08

not being

Mandy 56:09

not naturally. Mm-hmm.

katy 56:11

not oppressing people. Like what, what will move the needle in that way?

Mandy 56:15

that way,

katy 56:16

And I,

Mandy 56:17

and I,

katy 56:18

the

Mandy 56:18

I think learning a lot since the past

katy 56:20

really open to some of

Mandy 56:21

open.

katy 56:22

Being hard to learn and challenging maybe what we wish were true or wish could happen. But, you know,

Mandy 56:29

But,

katy 56:29

even

Mandy 56:29

you know, I don't even know what that meant. I

katy 56:32

of what I'm saying, but one of the takeaways from this

Mandy 56:35

things

katy 56:36

just trying to think about

Mandy 56:37

about how,

katy 56:39

how open we

Mandy 56:40

how open

katy 56:41

different tactics and strategies that, that actually do move the needle. And of course, I mean, we've talked about this a million times over the years, just of the most obvious ways is for white people to not be the center of anything. And I know I say this as a white woman talking to another white woman on a podcast, we started to talk about white women. You know, like, I think there's a role for that. I, one of the messages is

Mandy 57:03

one of the messages.

katy 57:04

F out of the way. Just like get, stop intervening and interfering and throw whatever resources and support you have behind people doing the work from the positions of being. The ones who are targets of things, you know,

Mandy 57:21

Yeah.

katy 57:21

but I, I

Mandy 57:22

Well, and I, yeah, I agree with that part of it completely. I also think part of the reason that it's so easy for some of these things to never go away, like these people, the segregationists and like anti federal involvement, people like never left is because they are allowed to hide in the background. And so it, it seems like we've made victories where we have not made victories, and I think being very conscious of not doing that is also very important. Like to make sure that these histories are known and to call it out when it is still going on. There was one another like Instagram reel that I remember seeing from a. Black activist, political commentator named Joshua Doss, where he pushes back a bit against the current group of liberals who are convinced that Trump stole this last election, which, whatever. That could be discussed in various ways.

katy 58:20

the fact that people want this. Like,

Mandy 58:22

That's what he said. He is like, if, if you do that, then that will be used as a narrative to help those people hide in the future. When hopefully we come out on the other side and people are against it, then you're, you're not making them own that choice. You're not making them have that responsibility. If you say, oh, well it was stolen, then they could say, oh, it was stolen. I didn't do that. You know, like, no, you did that. You all did that. We're gonna remember that.

katy 58:55

Well, and

Mandy 58:55

And that's more helpful.

katy 58:57

about what actually we

Mandy 58:59

What actually,

katy 59:00

You know, and

Mandy 59:01

yeah,

katy 59:01

is

Mandy 59:01

I think there is this desire and.

katy 59:03

hear it necessarily as much, but in campaign time especially, there's this rhetoric among a lot of democratic candidates, like, that's not who

Mandy 59:10

That's not who we're mm-hmm.

katy 59:12

I'm like,

Mandy 59:12

It's,

katy 59:13

it,

Mandy 59:13

yeah.

katy 59:14

we

Mandy 59:14

not who we wanna be. It's

katy 59:16

it,

Mandy 59:16

way to put it.

katy 59:17

I don't know who's in

Mandy 59:18

I,

katy 59:18

we, like, I wish that we were bigger, but I, I,

Mandy 59:22

I

katy 59:23

appreciate that, like, just the most

Mandy 59:24

is the most honest

katy 59:26

possible

Mandy 59:26

possible. And

katy 59:28

to. Make sure and protect the histories that help explain that.

Mandy 59:34

explain that side note.

katy 59:36

learned

Mandy 59:36

learned that

katy 59:37

Iowa

Mandy 59:38

Iowa, I

katy 59:39

that the

Mandy 59:40

that the branch of the state

katy 59:42

in Iowa City

Mandy 59:42

in Iowa City

katy 59:43

longer

Mandy 59:44

no longer.

katy 59:45

they're not funding it anymore. And that's where the women's archives are for the state. That's where the labor history archives are. And so just thinking

Mandy 59:51

And so just thinking that what happens,

katy 59:52

that's

Mandy 59:53

there's no plan that's been

katy 59:54

the, the main

Mandy 59:55

announced.

katy 59:55

can't, they can't even take

Mandy 59:57

They can't even take

katy 59:57

this other

Mandy 59:58

this other archive.

katy 59:59

And so there's like

Mandy 1:00:00

So.

katy 1:00:01

are they just gonna throw things out? Are they going to try to donate them to other places? But if we no longer have a place where

Mandy 1:00:08

Have a place we're

katy 1:00:10

women's stories or collecting labor history stories like that makes it real easy to never teach about it because we don't, we literally don't have the

Mandy 1:00:18

don't have.

katy 1:00:18

of it. So it's just, yeah, a call to make sure. I've just been so frustrated by how many websites in research and work I do for my actual job. I'll try to find a

Mandy 1:00:28

try to find a website.

katy 1:00:30

gone. The information is

Mandy 1:00:31

Mm-hmm.

katy 1:00:31

all, it's all information about history of people, of color, history of women,

Mandy 1:00:36

Women

katy 1:00:37

plus history. Those are the websites

Mandy 1:00:39

are the websites.

katy 1:00:40

and it is super disturbing. So just, yeah. Thinking about moving forward, what are the lessons learned? One of the lessons is to make sure we have lessons to learn because we have history.

Mandy 1:00:52

Yep. Yep. Well, they can always get on and listen to us.

katy 1:00:57

Until they delete the internet, we should, we should make,

Mandy 1:01:01

Okay.

katy 1:01:01

LPs or whatever they like record albums and just have records. People can play on it like a phonograph machine. I think that's the best way to protect.

Mandy 1:01:11

they'll be handed down to our great grandkids who will be like, who are these women? We don't care.

katy 1:01:16

this? Oh my God. Well, I, I am

Mandy 1:01:19

All right.

katy 1:01:20

again and see you next week. Thanks for listening,

Mandy 1:01:22

Okay. We'll see you. Bye.