Our Dirty Laundry

Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 5

• Mandy Griffin

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Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.

Mandy:

Hi,

katy:

Hi.

Mandy:

how are you?

katy:

I'm good. I'm happy to see you

Mandy:

I'm happy to you.

katy:

for

Mandy:

know,

katy:

week in a row.

Mandy:

I know. This is amazing.

katy:

I, I feel like maybe that's

Mandy:

I feel

katy:

like a, a low bar for people who want to have a podcast to just record regularly, but I am really proud of us.

Mandy:

well, we've got a lot going on. I mean, we've said it is super hard. It's very hard. Kids are going back to school next week here in Nevada, so that may or may not help. I always feel like the summer is gonna be better, and then I'm like, I don't know. I don't think it is. I,

katy:

Mm. I don't think it is either. I

Mandy:

I don't,

katy:

I mean, I love summer, but I, it feels like a less structured, just more unpredictable kind of time of year and I, I feel

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

a lot more guilt associated with Summer. Like there's some sort of

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

I'm supposed to be providing my children and

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

to provide.

Mandy:

Yeah. You're supposed to be more present, more involved in things and

katy:

failing

Mandy:

another. Mm-hmm.

katy:

all those, all those voices of, you know, what capitalism and white supremacy that we should just learn to totally ignore it. Not that all of

Mandy:

Not that all those

katy:

my head are

Mandy:

voices in head

katy:

a lot of them are. So I can

Mandy:

a lot.

katy:

take it down a

Mandy:

Take it down.

katy:

we Chapter

Mandy:

we're

katy:

of Elizabeth Gillespie, Mcgras mothers of Massive Resistance. And I will be

Mandy:

I,

katy:

that I read this literally right before, and Mandy was very kind in giving me extra time to prepare. But I'm so glad I did. It was great.

Mandy:

well, you probably still will have retained more than I do because I feel like. I feel like it's not my comprehension that's a problem. It's definitely retention. That's a problem.'cause I listened to this on the audio book version'cause I, as I drove up to Utah earlier this week,'cause I'm visiting my parents. And then I read it yesterday

katy:

Okay.

Mandy:

and, and I didn't remember most of what I read. I was like, oh, I listened to this. Huh. I wonder what else my mind was thinking of as it was playing in the car.'cause I don't remember this at all.

katy:

It's like none of the ways to retain information or helping me anymore. I was just thinking about how when I was in high

Mandy:

I,

katy:

where, I mean, we were in high school together, but I did plays and now

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

I, I

Mandy:

I, I

katy:

there are things I

Mandy:

there

katy:

about

Mandy:

about

katy:

and

Mandy:

being a theater and sometimes

katy:

I get involved in community theater here?

Mandy:

theater.

katy:

know I cannot. I, there's no way I would ever be able to remember anything.

Mandy:

Lines. Yeah. No

katy:

I read Bo the same. Every

Mandy:

Every

katy:

time I put him to bed and it is not, there aren't even that many lines of text. It's called Grandfather Twilight. If anyone knows this book, it's really lovely and like a nice goodnight book. could not tell

Mandy:

would not tell you. I know this, this,

katy:

repeat any of the lines and I've read it

Mandy:

and I read it.

katy:

at this

Mandy:

Yeah. Well, I will get like the, you know, the six digit text codes to log to something and I'll be like, I can remember this. I can go from my phone to my computer and remember these six digits. No,

katy:

no.

Mandy:

no, I cannot.

katy:

This is

Mandy:

It's, it's terrible.

katy:

are times where like, I was almost in tears last night. I, my daughter had lost a brush and. I thought, oh, it might actually be like, really under her bed. And so I got under and dug around and found

Mandy:

Around.

katy:

popped up and said to everybody like, ha ha, I found the

Mandy:

I found

katy:

This is so great.

Mandy:

this is so great and it

katy:

15 seconds

Mandy:

15 seconds

katy:

not

Mandy:

that I could not

katy:

And I was almost in tears, like looking at my husband, like, are you guys punking me? Like, are you guys are

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

like, no. And I, I spent the

Mandy:

I

katy:

minutes like

Mandy:

next five minutes

katy:

and thinking

Mandy:

and thinking I have lost my mind.

katy:

And it was in a laundry basket. Why don't know

Mandy:

Well

katy:

I

Mandy:

see. That would've been me and it would've been like in my hand while I was searching all over before it like, oh, it's right here. I've done that before. I've walked around the house looking for my phone, like with my phone in my hand, and I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Like where is it?

katy:

oh

Mandy:

it's great.

katy:

I, I

Mandy:

Aging is going well.

katy:

Like if this is where I we're at, at this stage of our lives, it does not bode well for decades in the future. But, you know,

Mandy:

No. No.

katy:

who knows?

Mandy:

So I hope someone's coming up with something, but nobody seems to be coming up with anything to fix the problems that we're having

katy:

I

Mandy:

as a society.

katy:

all anything. Yeah.

Mandy:

No. Mm,

katy:

in some ways like the more I become like a goldfish, maybe the happier I am as a person too. Like it's just allows me to not remember why I was really upset and mad about something 14 seconds ago. You know?

Mandy:

right. Yeah.

katy:

It's like the

Mandy:

It might be true.

katy:

I'm living here. The name of Dory Life. Alright, well this chapter is called Partisan Betrayals. A bad woman, weak white Men, and the End of their Party, the Bad Woman, I think refers to Eleanor Roosevelt.

Mandy:

Yeah, I know. I was fascinated. No, not at all. Although I did feel much better reading this chapter than I felt reading the last chapter.'cause we talked about how my daughter's name is Nell, and in the last chapter, the Nell of that chapter was not someone we really loved. But, but Nell's, my daughter, Nell's full name is actually Eleanor.

katy:

Okay.

Mandy:

And so, and Nell is a nickname. So then I was reading this chapter and I was like, okay, redeemed. It was like,

katy:

We don't have to change her name to something else. Oh gosh.

Mandy:

I feel better. Although another Nelly was also introduced in this chapter too. And I was like, what is with this? Like, I swear this is not a name that was at all popular in any way, but apparently

katy:

Oh.

Mandy:

this network of white women, like

katy:

I, I

Mandy:

it was the whole thing. That, yeah.

katy:

these women

Mandy:

These women would've

katy:

born like in the early 19 hundreds or whatever. It makes me

Mandy:

whatever It makes me think of like,

katy:

Nelly from Little House in the Prairie. Wasn't that her name?

Mandy:

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

katy:

girl. I don't know how else to

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

her, but yeah, maybe there

Mandy:

Yeah. Maybe there was of

katy:

floating around. Like it sort of like Katie,

Mandy:

sort of like, I feel like

katy:

growing

Mandy:

when we were growing up

katy:

white Catholic girl I ever met was named Katie, and now I never

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

being, maybe there just aren't white Catholic girls being born anymore. That I don't.

Mandy:

One can,

katy:

Fingers crossed. Yeah.

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

fair enough. Yeah. I'm

Mandy:

it'll come back around. It's all cycles.

katy:

I'm

Mandy:

It is all in a cycle.

katy:

a charming old fashioned name. But anyway so the chapter opens up. It's a, a nice segue chapter, I think from the wound we were learning about in the previous chapters and then taking them into World War II wartime and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

from the Democrats to the Dixiecrats to the Republican

Mandy:

Republican party

katy:

and why that flipped. And just the way that white women were instrumental in that, in, in a way that

Mandy:

in a way that was basically

katy:

women committed to white supremacy being so annoyed with the white men in their

Mandy:

in their,

katy:

Ugh, you can't do anything. We're gonna have to

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

And like

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

them away from these forces that were leading to more

Mandy:

More progressive.

katy:

So let's start with with Eleanor Roosevelt and, and FDR. I mean,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

honestly like a whole other rabbit hole. We could

Mandy:

About the

katy:

thinking

Mandy:

down.

katy:

only president we've had who served three terms and just what a unique position he was in during World War ii. And just a, a lot of really fascinating ins and outs to his presidency, I think. And his relationship with Eleanor Roosevelt and her role as

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

was really, I think like the first, first lady who, who was super involved. I don't know that

Mandy:

I know that,

katy:

right. So I'm gonna say it.

Mandy:

right. I mean, I don't remember learning about many other first ladies,

katy:

nothing.

Mandy:

but yeah, just, just was clearly not taught. That's for sure.

katy:

know.

Mandy:

but neither was like this history of Eleanor Roosevelt. I didn't know she was such a controversial figure or so influential

katy:

Yeah,

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

rod at

Mandy:

a lightning rod at one point. I think

katy:

even the word that's used. But I, I think like, just to

Mandy:

they, I think

katy:

our, I

Mandy:

refresher I

katy:

this so much further than we are going to get into, but just thinking about World War II this really pivotal catalyst in

Mandy:

catalyst in so many ways,

katy:

when

Mandy:

especially.

katy:

desegregation efforts, because you had men and women, black men and women who were serving in the military

Mandy:

Military. Mm-hmm.

katy:

V campaign, which was victory against the Nazis and against fascists, but also victory at home against fascism at home, basically like pointing out that these were not actually so different. It made me wonder,

Mandy:

Wonder

katy:

to be honest,

Mandy:

to be honest, like how it was

katy:

patriotic

Mandy:

patriot,

katy:

against the Nazis whipped up. Because

Mandy:

because

katy:

is

Mandy:

there really is so much

katy:

and

Mandy:

common and so much mm-hmm.

katy:

like,

Mandy:

yeah, I mean, we discussed that all in our eugenics season that we did too, where we talked about how much of like the Nazis and Hitler's campaigns actually drew upon, like the eugenics movements that were happening in the United States. So yeah, it is kind of baffling

katy:

And

Mandy:

there was

katy:

like

Mandy:

what.

katy:

we were

Mandy:

Remember we were learning

katy:

Charles Lindberg, this famous pilot, and he was very openly pro-Nazi

Mandy:

Nazi, and there were absolutely

katy:

leaders who not anti-Nazi. But it is just interesting to me how that that patriotism like the anti-Nazi patriotism. got translated to pro-US. It's like, oh, I don't think a

Mandy:

don't think a lot of these white women.

katy:

about what that would then mean. You know,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like the questioning

Mandy:

these,

katy:

segregation.

Mandy:

women were doing it.

katy:

did.

Mandy:

white women were doing the math. They knew what was happening. They were like, this is not okay with us and we've gotta figure out a way to combat this. But it is also to me interesting then to see how, again, the stories of history get told and all of that. Part of it gets erased. Like there was clearly a lot of opposition to the US getting into the, the wars, and I think that gets lost once we move past it. Once the victory happened, it was like, oh yeah, no, everybody was always on board. Everybody always thought the Nazis were bad and they wanted to, you know, save the Jews. It's like that was absolutely not what a huge portion of the population felt at that point in time.

katy:

of antisemitism in the

Mandy:

Tons of antisemitism

katy:

and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

lots of pro fascism in the United States, that clearly has not gone away. So yes, I agree. I think that is the danger of the way that history often gets learned or taught is like very simplistic, good guy, bad guy. We were all for this. That that doesn't make sense because if that was the case of what you know, it just, if you think about it for two seconds, you will, the complexity comes flooding in. But I think that's the hope is that nobody thinks about it for more than two seconds. So this is really where the massive. Support for segregation transformed into massive resistance. That's a quote from page one 10, where they, their job, the job of these white women was really to like, get white people to keep caring about maintaining white supremacy and just really like keeping it tight, you know? And, and then because of World War II and all these big changes in the federal government and FDRs, like a bunch of things happening, they were put on defense instead of offense. At least that's how I took it, to

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

do whatever they could to, to put a stop to the, the dismantling of white supremacy.

Mandy:

what's

katy:

sad is that the

Mandy:

sad is that

katy:

yes,

Mandy:

like

katy:

were important and

Mandy:

are important and powerful and honestly

katy:

chapter like, how did anything ever happen

Mandy:

happen. Mm-hmm.

katy:

But it's also

Mandy:

It's

katy:

it.

Mandy:

not like.

katy:

It was wildly successful

Mandy:

successful,

katy:

was really happening

Mandy:

really happening. Yeah.

katy:

and in all sorts of structural ways. It's like, oh my God, it wasn't even, it just does not

Mandy:

It just does not take much progress.

katy:

the fuck out. Let's put it that

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

So,

Mandy:

Yes. Which also continues along today,

katy:

Hello. So

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah.

katy:

into the the, the ways that

Mandy:

way that,

katy:

their freak out

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

one way that showed up was them really hating, super publicly hating Eleanor Roosevelt.

Mandy:

Yeah, so she says that. And this is the bottom of page one 10. Southern white women reconfigured white supremacist politics during this time in three ways. And the first one was they understood Eleanor Roosevelt as embodying the political betrayal of the Democratic Party. For some women, the fractures in their partisan loyalty became salient in their wartime critiques of the first lady she served as a gendered threat to racial segregation and a racialized threat to white southern womanhood. So she basically was just the opposite of everything that white southern women had ever thought of themselves to be, had taught their children to be and what they thought was the correct way to live. And so they just took everything that she did and basically just raked her over the coals in news articles and like her political travels. And there was this one story where she had gone to Livingston College, which was a black college and university. And she spent the day with them there at that. And then that evening she went and then addressed like, it seems like a more white audience, the General Convention of Christian Education. American Methodist, Episcopal Zion Church, and then the DAR, the UDC, the PTA. But then at night she went back and dined with black women and men and that just set people completely off. They basically said, you know, whatever northerners want to do above the Mason Dixon line, they can do, but you can't bring that down to the south. And so it got to, it was at the point where after she did that, the women in that area refused to even provide overnight accommodations for her, and she had to travel back up north because no one would let her stay with them.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Which just seems just wild. I mean, I guess there weren't hotels,

katy:

Well, I know the, yeah, right.

Mandy:

like you're just staying with people in their houses. I suppose that is the way it happened.

katy:

made me

Mandy:

It made me think,

katy:

the, oh, these are the

Mandy:

oh, these are the invert,

katy:

kind of petty detective. Like they're, they're

Mandy:

they're, they're

katy:

ness as a tool for

Mandy:

as.

katy:

Like they, it says that they thought she was worth monitoring because she was doing all these things that made them so mad. And so just again, thinking about like pre-social media, the way that these women were able to keep tabs on her and get pissed about the smallest things and then turn those into big things like, they were, they

Mandy:

They were, they were,

katy:

Boy Scouts trying to integrate a 4th of July parade. Like again, nothing is small enough for them not to be awful about it. You know, like just all of the things Yeah. There were other stories too about how they were

Mandy:

were

katy:

that

Mandy:

frustrated

katy:

attended

Mandy:

attended.

katy:

hosted a dance where

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

interracial dancing and people were really mad about that. And it was

Mandy:

And it was all kind of this idea like telling

katy:

way, all

Mandy:

we'll all be integrated and

katy:

she has gone

Mandy:

had gone way too far away

katy:

to the

Mandy:

letters to the editor about this. They're writing articles about this.

katy:

are

Mandy:

They also are then suggesting like probably they probably want to have sex.

katy:

men. And

Mandy:

Oh yeah. Like the personal place that they took these attacks against her and her family was just, Ima, I mean, they questioned like her relationship with FDR and like their marriage might must not have been good, like, because, and then she must have wanted to have sex with black men, and then they must have wanted, like, her sons to marry black women. I mean, it's just the, the nastiness that it turned into at that point in time was just shocking. But not shocking in a way. I mean,

katy:

isn't Eleanor Roosevelt also now people look back and they're like, oh, she's probably lesbian. So I'm like,

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

they

Mandy:

like they were wrong. Like they were very wrong

katy:

had

Mandy:

if only they had known, you know?

katy:

I think that it is like this, it just keeps boiling down to white women protecting white supremacy in the most

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

ways, like

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

relationships, friendships, eating. having sex with

Mandy:

Having sex.

katy:

just

Mandy:

Like she's, she's monitoring all of those domestic and

katy:

so

Mandy:

so carefully and just really

katy:

so,

Mandy:

so,

katy:

angry

Mandy:

angry about it.

katy:

There was one

Mandy:

was one part here where Elizabeth

katy:

is

Mandy:

talking

katy:

specifically about

Mandy:

specifically about how this mother thing

katy:

for

Mandy:

and that for these,

katy:

good

Mandy:

for good white others,

katy:

their job was

Mandy:

that their job was to

katy:

who

Mandy:

children to maintain appropriate racial dis

katy:

taught a

Mandy:

show the schools of curriculum in line with white supremacy politics told stories are educated the larger public on the natural myth of racial segregation.

katy:

it cannot be

Mandy:

And it cannot be defined

katy:

It

Mandy:

by the, it came to be, excuse me, defined by the same complicated rules, except that white mothers had to guarantee that their children weren't in, adhere to the land who were segregation.

katy:

And if they did

Mandy:

And if they did not follow segregated

katy:

threatening

Mandy:

ation, they're threatening without raising of white supremacy. So this how, again, like all these things that maybe seen.

katy:

smaller,

Mandy:

Smaller, even insignificant all of a sudden. Mm-hmm.

katy:

but it's,

Mandy:

But it's, it's that,

katy:

they're

Mandy:

that they're monitoring

katy:

really

Mandy:

all

katy:

things with and just using

Mandy:

just using all their power to

katy:

call her

Mandy:

call her out.

katy:

that I

Mandy:

The part that I got was, and some of

katy:

the,

Mandy:

the,

katy:

of the times

Mandy:

all of the times that they used the

katy:

oh, my

Mandy:

like, oh, my black friend, oh my gosh.

katy:

like

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

like, no, none of the black people I know like are saying anything,

Mandy:

saying anything. So

katy:

with

Mandy:

they must be fine with it.

katy:

ways that they, these white women that we've been learning about

Mandy:

That we've been learning about black,

katy:

to use, like

Mandy:

like, like process

katy:

any black people in their lives as justification for white supremacy was especially gross. I don't know

Mandy:

gross. Yeah.

katy:

or stories that

Mandy:

Yeah. Well, yeah. All of those same things for sure. She says like, kind of alluding to that. Part about them talking about their black friends and all the black people. They, I mean, I say friends in quotes. That's like the people that worked for them and their, A lot of

katy:

black

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

I, I'm sure right?

Mandy:

Yeah. No.

katy:

Uhhuh.

Mandy:

but she says that like these, this southern whites were nowhere near ready to admit that black southerners were disaffected with the South's racial hierarchy. And so they turned their anger towards the Democratic party and towards Eleanor Roosevelt And

katy:

her for lynching.

Mandy:

blamed her.

katy:

mind. Like

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

massive race riots that were horrifying, terrifying acts of racial

Mandy:

Acts of racial

katy:

and lynching on the rise.

Mandy:

on the ride

katy:

white women came out and

Mandy:

came out and

katy:

blamed Eleanor Roosevelt said, it's her

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

she's drumming people up. She's making people

Mandy:

People.

katy:

like, it's

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

don't even

Mandy:

they don't wanna,

katy:

about

Mandy:

yep. Yeah. Mary Dawson Kane, who's one of the women we learned about earlier, published an open letter to Eleanor Roosevelt, blaming her for three brutal lynchings of two black teenage boys and a Laurel, Mississippi farmer. They called her the ringleader of racial agitation, basically saying like, if you wouldn't go and intermingle and spend time with these people, they would be content in their place, is really how they saw it. They're like, you're making them discontented,

katy:

right.

Mandy:

is making them then fight for rights, which then we must answer with lynchings and VA and violence. So this is your fault for basically agreeing that they could rise above anything

katy:

Or even encouraging

Mandy:

except for where we put them.

katy:

bagger, s scally, wag, put these ideas into their head. You, Northern

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like they

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

wanted this or

Mandy:

Wanted

katy:

and like, I don't wanna

Mandy:

and like, I don't wanna pretend that

katy:

be Candace Owens in the

Mandy:

Owens in the 1940s. Right.

katy:

Like I'm sure there were no, again, like no group is monolithic, but you cannot tell

Mandy:

you cannot

katy:

living under the

Mandy:

under the threat of,

katy:

violence have their

Mandy:

have their employer

katy:

and say, do you want this? Like,

Mandy:

say like

katy:

do you think

Mandy:

what kind.

katy:

Like they're not going

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

your fa, are you kidding me? Like, it's just so obvious why

Mandy:

Why

katy:

be

Mandy:

people would be silent or would be less,

katy:

in their agreement or whatever, you

Mandy:

whatever. Mm-hmm.

katy:

even in themselves, like, be afraid of those changes because they're

Mandy:

They're,

katy:

Like, all of those

Mandy:

all of those things are,

katy:

And,

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

of those things endorse white supremacy as a system at all.

Mandy:

Yep. Yep.

katy:

the

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

thought was especially intriguing with this, which the woman writing this book, Elizabeth Gillespie Mc Gray, mentioned several times,

Mandy:

Several times is that

katy:

up of Eleanor Roosevelt as the, the like devil

Mandy:

devil incarnate? Mm-hmm.

katy:

traditions. not only

Mandy:

only

katy:

kind of

Mandy:

that kind of,

katy:

Blame to put on her, but doing that actually

Mandy:

that actually,

katy:

these black

Mandy:

yes. Yes.

katy:

and like took agency away and, and

Mandy:

And, and turn black people into objects

katy:

they are

Mandy:

because they're still

katy:

white people

Mandy:

white people are

katy:

who

Mandy:

the only people who are acting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

are the subjects who just kind of sit there while we battle it out. And so the

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

all this black leadership, all this work all of this activism, like it's, it's just a complete erasure. I don't know how else to

Mandy:

Yeah. And then away as she says this, like exactly what you're saying. On one 17, which I had underlined and starred, it said, in blaming Eleanor, white, Southern women diminished the validity of black protest, took away black initiated violence as a political strategy and elevated the role white women played in a segregated nation. So again, just this focus, even in, for someone who was being more progressive, it again takes the focus and puts it back on white people and white women specifically in this. And yeah, I, I, it was another one where I was just like, oh, yet another angle that I had never considered embarrassingly

katy:

And it is

Mandy:

just not

katy:

oh, this is like an, like a double chocolate ice cream cone that's dipped in chocolate

Mandy:

Chocolate. Mm-hmm.

katy:

not

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Not only are they.

katy:

racism, but in the way that they're choosing to blame and even

Mandy:

People and even who they set up as their going itself. Also, it's like

katy:

many

Mandy:

just too many levels of racism.

katy:

to bleed. You know? I

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah.

katy:

was in my scrolling on YouTube when I'm VEing out at night just staring off into space, I had just watched this video, that was super interesting

Mandy:

interesting about our

katy:

and the way that

Mandy:

and the way that open,

katy:

like open

Mandy:

like open concept.

katy:

Are connected to white supremacy. And I was like, I'm listening.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

it

Mandy:

What, tell me

katy:

to

Mandy:

It was connected to racism

katy:

and so it

Mandy:

and so it all connects at once. Page one 50

katy:

The author is talking

Mandy:

author talking about how it wasn't the patient developer Roosevelt, but also they

katy:

These white women got interested in labor policies

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

were really opposed to labor

Mandy:

labor rights and.

katy:

and, you know, started to

Mandy:

You know, started to label

katy:

agitators or whatever. They were

Mandy:

whatever. Mm-hmm.

katy:

labor unrest or work to protect workers. And they,

Mandy:

And they

katy:

about

Mandy:

it talks about how some white women complain that domestic service

katy:

the promise of better jobs to

Mandy:

better.

katy:

and west. And this

Mandy:

And this then

katy:

connected to this

Mandy:

connected with the video watch, which you talks about how in the early 19 hundreds, floor plans were middle class, one

katy:

always had

Mandy:

always had surface orders,

katy:

the

Mandy:

and all the, were very distinct

katy:

were

Mandy:

were

katy:

the workspaces

Mandy:

work faces were the,

katy:

they

Mandy:

and they

katy:

hazards

Mandy:

were fire hazards,

katy:

and

Mandy:

smelling, whatever. Mm-hmm.

katy:

contained in their own space, maybe even in the basement, but like off in their own space.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

there were domestic servants quarters, but as in this era, like

Mandy:

Era.

katy:

like 1940s and the even before that, like the great migration north, that as there are more

Mandy:

There are more opportunities, members

katy:

for

Mandy:

of communities, for people

katy:

efforts.

Mandy:

efforts and

katy:

are

Mandy:

there are big

katy:

unions and there is

Mandy:

and

katy:

opportunity, that those

Mandy:

that those,

katy:

all women of color. And so that.

Mandy:

and so that

katy:

like servant base kind of

Mandy:

based

katy:

And the

Mandy:

and, and the response

katy:

to just

Mandy:

was

katy:

okay,

Mandy:

like, okay, white woman, I guess it's your job now.

katy:

things. And so

Mandy:

And so

katy:

wanted to still be connected to their family

Mandy:

their,

katy:

aren't the servant. And hence the open floor plan was now to have like, because the,

Mandy:

because

katy:

wife and mother no longer

Mandy:

longer is exploiting the labor of women of color in her household.

katy:

to be

Mandy:

He wants

katy:

of the family.

Mandy:

of family

katy:

to like 1950s and sixties open floor plan concepts, which like continue today to be like the thing. And there's other parts of it

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

The ways that people socialized and a

Mandy:

And

katy:

living

Mandy:

that formal living room

katy:

sense. So

Mandy:

longer sense.

katy:

of

Mandy:

You know, a lot of factors, but one of the factors

katy:

to this exact issue. And it's basically

Mandy:

basically like

katy:

A physical

Mandy:

physical manifestation of

katy:

especially

Mandy:

especially for

katy:

upper class women to

Mandy:

women.

katy:

like white middle class women in

Mandy:

Women,

katy:

they don't have the money for servants

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

do all this labor that's expected of them, but still be part of the family. Isn't that fascinating

Mandy:

Hmm. That is fascinating.

katy:

disturbing,

Mandy:

so many of these things that like, I think I definitely haven't thought of, so that I know that probably a lot of people don't think about either. And then when you connect the dots, you just see how deeply entrenched it all it is. Like when people don't understand what systemic racism is, they think racism's over because you know, we no longer. We'll use the n word in public, you know, like that's we're we had a black president. We, yeah. Like it's over. Like, my, my child has a black friend. There's no such thing as racism anymore. You know, it's like, no, these things are so systemically ingrained in every single part of our society. I mean, this, this chapter did nothing to help my hatred of state's rights as an argument for things.'cause I was like, see, I was right. I've always been right. Like the state's rights bullshit and this like distrust of the federal government and this not wanting, she talks on page one 17 too, about this wedge that federal aid. Posed to states they did not want to accept federal aid because they saw, like, it comes with strings. Like, if we accept this aid, then they're going to be able to tell us how to use it. And so we're not gonna do it because we can see what's coming down the road from this. And this is still continued. It's like why I could, I can't understand, like the states that don't accept the Medicaid expansions, you know, like how, how would you not take money for healthcare to decrease the costs for people in your state? It's all connected back to this. It's because they don't want the strings that are attached to it because they wanna continue doing the, you know, racist, exploitative bullshit kind of things. And they can't do that when the federal, federal government gets involved.

katy:

right.

Mandy:

And so they would rather. Decline any sort of assistance so that they continue doing things their way than to accept the federal aid and have to take what comes along with it, which is

katy:

Before we,

Mandy:

before we I.

katy:

into the federal aid side of things as the other thing that these women really cared about at this time and still continue to care about. There were so many things that I was like, oh, today, today, today, today. Circling throughout. I just wanted to note with Eleanor Roosevelt and thinking about first ladies who become lightning rods for defenders of white supremacy, and I would love us to do another kind of set of episodes or mini episodes or whatever, about Michelle Obama became that for the, and just what she had to endure or the, the vitriol aimed at her. And

Mandy:

And

katy:

been fascinated, and again, I need to dive into just the ways that

Mandy:

that.

katy:

same people who lost their goddamn minds, like every day. It's about something related to Michelle Obama. Have nothing to say about Melania Trump. Like I, you know, just how like what, what that hatred and what that criticism was stemming from.

Mandy:

Well, and

katy:

it, I just, I'm so curious.

Mandy:

I'm so curious, like their, their anti

katy:

is not applied

Mandy:

not slide.

katy:

herself is an immigrant. Like, I just have so

Mandy:

Like, I just have so many questions for like, the ways that

katy:

there's pictures of her posing nude on a bare skinned rug, and it's like

Mandy:

and mm-hmm.

katy:

that

Mandy:

That

katy:

has escaped any of the standards or any of the things that they care about and

Mandy:

care about and advocate for and,

katy:

just unleashed on Michelle Obama in this, like, what had to have been horrific, totally

Mandy:

oh,

katy:

way. Like I don't, I, the fact that she's like functioning

Mandy:

functioning.

katy:

and love and humor and like all of that is just

Mandy:

All of that.

katy:

to me.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

yeah. I think that the, we need a first ladies branch of this podcast that just dives

Mandy:

Yeah. Well, and the connection also to the Maha movement, the Make America healthy and, and how the utter shit show tantrum that Republicans threw when Michelle Obama tried to make school lunches healthier and calling her a communist, and like saying that she was taking away like parental rights by trying to make kids eat healthier. And now they're acting like they're some saviors of health and like

katy:

Unbelievable.

Mandy:

Yeah. The hypocrisy. The hypocrisy.

katy:

Again, I don't, I don't know how people who are involved in those campaigns, like how they, they don't just explode from sheer frustration with that hypocrisy. I don't get it. But

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

into the, the federal aid and federal regulations, especially around labor,

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

exclusively.

Mandy:

It,

katy:

does just,

Mandy:

it does it

katy:

labor,

Mandy:

labor.

katy:

connected

Mandy:

so much connect with all of this, like when people are

katy:

from

Mandy:

away from the work,

katy:

a

Mandy:

that's when a lot of women,

katy:

white women

Mandy:

white women here and

katy:

workforce in

Mandy:

work,

katy:

that they had not been before. And that is

Mandy:

and that is one of those

katy:

pads for, you know, additional waves of feminism was having. You know, different

Mandy:

different

katy:

opportunities

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

was needed with men away at war. But then when you

Mandy:

But then when you have those members,

katy:

and unions are

Mandy:

union

katy:

too, because there some unions were advocating for gender and racial equality, but a lot of other

Mandy:

a

katy:

were actually mouthpieces for white supremacy and for sexism to say, we're gonna protect jobs for white men returning.

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

we don't want mixing in the workplace because that will lead to, again,

Mandy:

Again.

katy:

clutcher pearls, watch out. You like that being just the core fear, God forbid

Mandy:

God forbid.

katy:

interracial

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

katy:

there's just a

Mandy:

Yeah. And the war, the, yeah. And the whole wartime efforts and the need for labor at that time, which then gave the base of people who were laboring some power to unionize and to make demands, which then was met by all of this hysterics from Southerners who were just like, how dare you demand 5 cents more an hour when our white sons are off fighting this war? They saw it as like anti patriotic

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

support labor in any sort of way. And FDR, it seems from what they was in this chapter, was more of support of laborers,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

just gave them another reason to be angry at him. So they talk about like some specific strikes in the coal industry,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

and about the war, like a bill that came out after that called the Smith Connolly War Labor Disputes Bill, which basically granted the president the power to like seize any sort of industrial plant in wartime and to outlaw strikes in those industries. And also to ban political contributions by labor unions, which that part Yeah. Maybe not such a bad idea given Yeah. You

katy:

Like money and

Mandy:

know,

katy:

is a whole other

Mandy:

Uhhuh.

katy:

too.

Mandy:

Yeah. And Roosevelt actually, that was a bill that he vetoed because it took power away from workers and then Congress overrode his veto pretty immediately after that. So this is just setting up more of that. Discontent that southern de people who had always consider themselves southern Democrats had with FDR, with the new deal, with like this new kind of change in the Democratic party. And one more thing that they were just pissed off about because they saw it as an attack on their way of life, but also on their white husbands and white sons who are out fighting and not being supportive of them. And then fear for what roles they would have when they came back from the war too. Well

katy:

and it's laying the groundwork

Mandy:

the ground.

katy:

the Cold War because it's also very anti-communist, you know? And,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

connecting communist support to civil rights support, to

Mandy:

Support

katy:

like connecting all these dots and then being

Mandy:

and being against all of them. And it was,

katy:

I wrote in the margins that this is just such circular logic because there was this idea that this is gosh, I can't think of her first name. Ogden is her last name that

Mandy:

oh yeah. Mm-hmm.

katy:

She has this weekly column called

Mandy:

Called my dear. Oh my gosh,

katy:

I thought

Mandy:

yes.

katy:

weird. And

Mandy:

Weird. And she

katy:

she, to remedy the

Mandy:

the remedy

katy:

of soldiers, she sent pictures of black laborers picking cotton and white children

Mandy:

and white

katy:

the

Mandy:

on the

katy:

reminders of a system of white over black. And basically promising the boys that when they come home, everything's gonna be exactly the same, and don't worry, like we're holding the fort down.

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

I thought this idea that she was acting as a composite mother and presenting herself

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

of all these white boys who were away from the

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

and, you know, she would write about black soldiers, but in super disparaging ways,

Mandy:

Yes. That part was so gross

katy:

they wouldn't, didn't

Mandy:

wouldn't.

katy:

a test or had to come home for some reason. Like what? A, just,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

sucks. Okay. So,

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

I

Mandy:

she was terrible.

katy:

Of snarky line. I would love to ask Elizabeth Deloy, meck Ray, just how you write about things a, like how do you keep. snarkiness out, but sometimes I think it comes in a little bit, she says, with little concern for actual facts. Ogden argued that union members were simply not real Americans and they couldn't help it. For love of country is bred into people, and that was her logic is that strikes were proof that those are people with

Mandy:

People

katy:

pride and inferior ethnic background and

Mandy:

background and that all

katy:

therefore

Mandy:

together. So

katy:

Americans. And

Mandy:

yes,

katy:

I turn on the news anymore, like this is

Mandy:

it's the same. Mm-hmm.

katy:

are arguing for, like

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

citizenship, why they're, why they're deporting citizens and saying like, eh, no, they're not

Mandy:

They're not really, they're not married.

katy:

just

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

it, it's still so, so deep and so current. There was another part. is the other Nelly, the other, the other bat. Nelly, Nelly Nugent, Somerville, which I pictured her as

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

of Ted Nugent. Who knows if that's real, but that's my mind what I

Mandy:

Let's just go with it.

katy:

But she, she was arguing that the Constitution created a republic, not a democracy, and therefore not every voice had to be heard. And it was like, oh my God.

Mandy:

Wild.

katy:

it's just so These arguments have never gone away. And they, you know, like I think this

Mandy:

Like, I think

katy:

it connected to this, know, the upheaval of the war and of this push for civil rights and, you know, the, this like the

Mandy:

like the nexus of gender, sex,

katy:

all of it race

Mandy:

all of it. Race class.

katy:

there's this.

Mandy:

when there's this

katy:

of

Mandy:

mix of things that, and

katy:

Just

Mandy:

is happening

katy:

these people come out of the woodwork and the, the more

Mandy:

the, and.

katy:

and direct they get with what

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

for, and we hear all of the same things today.

Mandy:

Same arguments. Yeah. So Ogden and one of her columns wrote that this anti-immigrant sentiment that it comes out, that love of country is bred into peoples and the industrial workers, which she described as Eastern European immigrants, lacked the most basic qualification for American citizenship whiteness. She said most of them have come here within the last 30 years, and while many of them have lived in this country and enjoyed its freedom, they cannot love it as we do who are born here.

katy:

So gross. And not even

Mandy:

Ugh.

katy:

born here, but white people, specifically white

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

it's just so, it, it, again, it's just this circular logic like, oh, because white Christian people are the reason this exists. They're the only ones who can love it. It's like all of that is wrong. Like, it's not

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

like it, and yet it, it just becomes this engine of policy and actions and it just feeds itself over and over and over again. Like it's just what ah, it's so frustrating.

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and the part of the, one of the things I underlined from this Nelly Nugent summer rules column that she wrote that I was like, well, she's not wrong. It's just that this whole practice is wrong. She says, from the earliest times in this republic, the exercise of the election franchise has been protected by qualifications and restrictions.

katy:

Right. That is factual.

Mandy:

But also, but also terrible. So

katy:

Right? Like not something we are celebrating. Or in my, this was me being snarky was like, great. Can't wait for the qualifications to be like, no assholes. Like no

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

sexist, transphobic, assholes can vote anymore. Like, great. You know? But that to

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

just like the, the power of democracy, which hinges upon the, for democracy to work well, people have to give a shit about each other and they have to be informed. Like those,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

really important key components to a democracy working well. And I

Mandy:

Yes. Yep.

katy:

to say next, like, we don't, a, a significant portion of people are neither, neither

Mandy:

Right, right.

katy:

no. So

Mandy:

And this is the part that I have like struggled with in thinking about things like the tests, like the reading tests, the, you know, like things, the poll, taxes, all of that, and like, yes, obviously these were structured in a way to very explicitly exclude black people from being able to vote. On the other hand, I think we might need some sort of an informed test. Like, do you know anything about what you're voting for? Do you understand this in any sort of way before you just check yes or no because your neighbor had a sign or your pastor told you to, or your grandmother's always taught this, like is there some way to enforce some sort of

katy:

no. I mean,

Mandy:

education?

katy:

that's it. Like, no, I think we have

Mandy:

Think,

katy:

do our best to strive for it. It's one of the reasons I care about education so much is not so that everybody, the student I've ever had agrees with me. You know, that's not the point. It's just to help them care

Mandy:

help them care about each other first and foremost,

katy:

then help

Mandy:

and then help them value

katy:

seek out and

Mandy:

and speak out

katy:

how

Mandy:

and know how access information

katy:

could even have the same exact set of values and

Mandy:

set

katy:

to

Mandy:

and still

katy:

I mean, I think we see that through history all the time where

Mandy:

all time. Mm-hmm.

katy:

the same things but, and want the same outcomes, but have different ideas about

Mandy:

Different

katy:

people are always

Mandy:

people are always gonna disagree. That's okay. Yeah.

katy:

think like I. You know, I can understand that desire to have some sort of threshold, but I, I

Mandy:

But I, I just think like the.

katy:

it's too much power. It's too much power for someone to have to say, I get to be the decider about who knows enough and who doesn't. Like, that's just asking for corruption to happen. So it's like we just have to keep it open, do our absolute best to care about each

Mandy:

Care about each other and be informed

katy:

for the best. Like,

Mandy:

for the best. Like, I,

katy:

don't think

Mandy:

I don't, I,

katy:

behind'cause it's just, I wouldn't trust anybody to do a good job of

Mandy:

no, no, it's always, it's always gonna go off the rails, but I still think like our best is not great right now. Like

katy:

there's,

Mandy:

it's,

katy:

I used to assign

Mandy:

real sad

katy:

An opinion piece that was out years ago about not having

Mandy:

not having,

katy:

voting age. Just like literally, literally letting anybody vote, like anyone who's a citizen. And your first reaction might be like, that's insane. And

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

the article, I was like, actually, these are really great arguments. And honestly, like I

Mandy:

Honestly, like, are my teacher for it, you know,

katy:

about the children who I

Mandy:

I,

katy:

and

Mandy:

and their ability to call

katy:

pretty

Mandy:

out is pretty great. Mm-hmm.

katy:

I don't know, I, except for these two 12-year-old

Mandy:

But then I also,

katy:

on

Mandy:

oh, yes.

katy:

they're like, dear Mrs. Roosevelt, we're pissed. We're, we're in fifth grade and we hate you. And like, we, you're bad. I thought, oh

Mandy:

Yeah, that was on page one 14 where these girls wrote their letter and I loved their, their opening line. I usually do all my own thinking what I think. Yeah. But I am not able to put into words what I think about these, this dance that she hosted where that was like,

katy:

that you let people dance together. I don't know. It's,

Mandy:

yeah, it's too hard. Again, it's hard. And, and I recently, this reminds me kind of a tangent, but recently of a video I saw on Instagram of now these men who are openly advocating for repealing the 19th Amendment.

katy:

It's like, it's so

Mandy:

And so

katy:

It's so

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

But not, but not completely. They just want, they want their wives. Vote votes, but they, they want to control them. They're like, we should, they should still have a vote, but we get to cast it basically, is what they're saying. And it's the same thing if you, with the, you know, whatever, no age limit that I see that same thing happening with like, sure, well, kids can vote, we have 18 of them, and so we're gonna like

katy:

right. Like they're all coming with us.

Mandy:

Yep. And we're gonna tell'em exactly what they do, you know?

katy:

but it,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

that though, it is like arbitrary line that gets drawn, like, oh, you're 18 or you're 21, or whatever, you know, and it goes, but like, it just, it, any restriction comes with baggage, I guess is my

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

like

Mandy:

But it's like,

katy:

too, so Yes, absolutely.

Mandy:

yes. Yeah.

katy:

intentionally having 27 kids to, you know, further the apocalypse or whatever the logic is. I don't

Mandy:

Well, and this is the, the next part that I had highlighted in this chapter about how things go both ways. So there was, you know, this Ms. Ogden who was writing her My Dear Boys column, supporting these soldiers and all of this

katy:

by the way. Where's this

Mandy:

by the

katy:

She called it a

Mandy:

lotions of love.

katy:

was

Mandy:

of Love. What does that mean?

katy:

and I had a lot of questions about

Mandy:

Lotions of love. I don't even understand.

katy:

this column, but go ahead.

Mandy:

Yeah. But despite her, like supposed support for soldiers, she did not support the Soldier Voting Act,

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

which was basically saying that these soldiers who were serving could cast their votes even when they were not at home. And she was against that because what that meant is that black soldiers could also vote

katy:

Right,

Mandy:

they would be able to do it separated from these southern institutions that intimidated them out of voting.

katy:

That's

Mandy:

And

katy:

Yep.

Mandy:

they did not want that to happen. They didn't want them represented, and they were so willing to push to keep them from being represented that they were willing to take the vote away from their own white sons, their own husbands, their own whatever. Because anything to keep the vote away from black people again,

katy:

Yes. It's chilling.

Mandy:

the cartwheels, the gymnastics, the craziness that you have to go through to convince yourself that you're doing the right thing in all of this. I can't, I can't.

katy:

and I think we're moving into like, especially thinking about the 1940s, there are already some, some pretty significant. desegregation cases that have been happening. But of

Mandy:

Happening, but of course.

katy:

of those cases is 1954 Brown v. Board of Education. So I feel like

Mandy:

So I feel like we're, we're kind of to

katy:

involvement

Mandy:

women's involvement in back against this and again,

katy:

lotion

Mandy:

down to lotion model to

katy:

speeches. And she was just constantly speaking to mothers, really, specifically white mothers, and appealing to them to think about you and your children

Mandy:

and

katy:

children to fight what she called ization. It's just so fucking disgusting. And then she's pulling from eugenics to say, segregation comes

Mandy:

Segregation.

katy:

from our ancestors. Race preservation is self preservation. I feel like. Andrew Schultz or any of these like podcast bros are just like jizzing everywhere when they hear this history, like, yes. She's saying of her ancestors, I'm glad mine were white and American. I know every woman around this table is proud of her ancestors who gave us America. Again, it's like

Mandy:

It's like

katy:

you invent this myth

Mandy:

invented

katy:

your

Mandy:

your

katy:

advocacy. Like you, you

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

that then cycles back on itself to promote that thing that relies on that thing and it's

Mandy:

Thing

katy:

But she says our most dangerous and

Mandy:

The.

katy:

reaching threat facing Americans in 1948 is the threat to the white race. If science or history did not satisfy her audience, she asserted that segregation

Mandy:

Segregates,

katy:

planned it. And I still think he is a better planner than President Truman in his civil rights committee, or even Mrs. Roosevelt

Mandy:

thank you. Seriously. And somebody, okay, I've gotta find where I underline this, but somebody then I think quoting that article said that like her article should be, you know, basically published nationally and it was the second only to the Bible

katy:

geez.

Mandy:

in the sense that she made and the truth that she spoke. And I, I can't see where I underlined that, but somewhere in there I was like, oh, vomit all over the place. Like, just

katy:

Yeah,

Mandy:

terrible.

katy:

well

Mandy:

The,

katy:

ends here with the 1948 presidential election. I

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

like, my Iowa History nerd alarm was going off throughout this chapter because it mentions John L. Lewis, who was a, a really significant labor leader in all those

Mandy:

In all those

katy:

white women were like freaking out about. He's from Iowa,

Mandy:

from

katy:

then Henry Wallace, who was the candidate for the Progressive party, also from Iowa,

Mandy:

From

katy:

was FDRs. Vice president in his third term, he'd also served as Secretary of Agriculture. And his stance even now

Mandy:

now,

katy:

to

Mandy:

it's hard.

katy:

and not think that would be a fresh campaign today in the year

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

But

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

I mean the softer

Mandy:

I mean,

katy:

Soviet Union is complicated because Russia was not like there's complications there. But

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

platforms were explicitly about

Mandy:

about brotherhood and non segregation,

katy:

that he

Mandy:

that

katy:

a hard line

Mandy:

we had borderline demand for racial

katy:

and was

Mandy:

inequality and was also a great reporter of labor rights, and it was just very

katy:

all of those

Mandy:

clear. All of those things aligned. And so it talks about how

katy:

about

Mandy:

the book talks about how.

katy:

candidacy was again, kind of

Mandy:

again, kind of that perfect lightning rod

katy:

all

Mandy:

galvanize all these people together, which is certainly

katy:

Wallace's intention, you know, to

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

katy:

a. Like a common

Mandy:

Common

katy:

enemy for

Mandy:

ending. All people

katy:

around and

Mandy:

together around and say like,

katy:

why

Mandy:

is why

katy:

all be

Mandy:

all,

katy:

or like, this is why we all need to work together. But they were able to

Mandy:

but they were able to frame

katy:

him as

Mandy:

him as this

katy:

person

Mandy:

dangerous person

katy:

these

Mandy:

in all of these categories, and so their

katy:

opposition could

Mandy:

opposition could become explicitly anti, anti-black, anti rights, anti, mm-hmm.

katy:

of those things. And like holding gender,

Mandy:

Gender

katy:

talk about this, but this is

Mandy:

about this. This is also the beginning of, of

katy:

explicitly anti-gay,

Mandy:

gay

katy:

actions. Like the lavender

Mandy:

la

katy:

is not too far away. Like there

Mandy:

away. There were.

katy:

of gay men

Mandy:

Gay men from the government, like

katy:

of these

Mandy:

all these

katy:

together.

Mandy:

together. Mm-hmm.

katy:

we, when we

Mandy:

And

katy:

about reproductive justice, like there was, this was also a lot of sterilization laws coming into play. Like just that eugenics logic at the heart of everything that here's this candidate who comes along, who's representing opposite of

Mandy:

the opposite of all those things. And so it just help them and

katy:

combine

Mandy:

combine their class one. Yeah.

katy:

you know.

Mandy:

Yeah. So even if there were people who might not have been on one side of a labor issue or the other side of the segregation issue, they all felt like they had to come together. They all just got more power. They saw they could defeat these things easier if they all did come together and fight against basically any of these agendas that

katy:

able to

Mandy:

they were.

katy:

we're out democratic

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

like, we're gone and we're gonna pull all

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

like, we're going to, you know,

Mandy:

All we're gonna do

katy:

And we mentioned this last week was

Mandy:

was

katy:

white

Mandy:

the fact that white women mm-hmm.

katy:

pull their men basically

Mandy:

basically

katy:

other

Mandy:

other

katy:

and

Mandy:

track

katy:

not,

Mandy:

say like, we're not, we're not gonna be charged

katy:

anymore. We're going to do our own thing.

Mandy:

our

katy:

to

Mandy:

own, we're gonna,

katy:

Republican party politics. And that

Mandy:

and that

katy:

their, the era when that

Mandy:

era, when that.

katy:

women were super, super influential in that and, and recreating the. landscape to one that's more familiar to us today.

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah. I felt like this whole chapter was, because we have said this, we in the past we have always wondered like what happened to the switch with the Republican Democratic Party, the, you know, Lincoln being the Republican party and now it have, having different ideologies and I felt like this chapter was the answer. Like, this is what happened. It's very clear.

katy:

white women

Mandy:

women. Yeah.

katy:

nooks and crannies of that story.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

the last thing I'll say, just to set us up for the next chapter, which is focused on Jim Crow's International Enemies and Nationwide Allies, that another piece of what was pushing changes at a faster

Mandy:

faster rate.

katy:

the international pressure to desegregate and to. More clearly delineate between the United States and Nazi Germany, you know, that there were, there was a lot of international condemnation of what was happening in the United States. And it,

Mandy:

And I'm

katy:

we'll see when we get into this chapter, but something else that has always puzzled me in this era that we're living in, of the combination of issues that people really care about, is there the like intense hostility towards the United Nations and towards government. And it's

Mandy:

Government, and now it makes so much more sense. It's like, oh.

katy:

government because of the strings attached or the commitments, then the UN is like federal government on steroids that has a declaration of human rights and a declaration of children's rights and a declaration of Indigenous rights. It's like, well, yeah, of course not. Like of course that's gonna be even worse. And why you're gonna care about the UN and have all these conspiracy theories and you know, things that

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

angry. So yeah, just helping. It's one of those things where you tilt all these issues one way and they seem disconnected and you, you just walk behind the

Mandy:

Walk behind the scenes and they're like, oh, they're all plugged.

katy:

cord. Like they're

Mandy:

Yeah, yeah,

katy:

fueled by the same thing.

Mandy:

yeah. Right. And I think in one way we've looked at all of this history and been discouraged that we're still doing it again. It's like, oh we,

katy:

Hmm.

Mandy:

this has never gone away. This seems to be on repeat.

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

But on the other hand, I'm also like, okay, this seems like a pretty shitty time in history. Some terrible stuff was happening, but we did come out of it somewhat. Obviously we know it went, never went away, but in ways we came out of it and we made some progress. And hopefully that can also happen again. I mean, hopefully there's some sort of, and maybe we can

katy:

It's so

Mandy:

learn the lessons of the past to not

katy:

I have

Mandy:

continue in it.

katy:

I know

Mandy:

I know.

katy:

like the Pollyanna of our partnership to try to say like, don't despair. But I, I have been thinking a lot about unintended consequences for better or for worse. Like Henry Wallace is a candidate, like galvanizes these people, you

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Eleanor Roosevelt, you

Mandy:

Roosevelt.

katy:

galvanized them, pissed them off enough to

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

than what they were doing. And it's, so it's interesting to think about like, what are the tactics, what are the strategies, what are we trying to do that will more foundationally fundamentally shift things to be focused on

Mandy:

Find

katy:

caring about each

Mandy:

caring about each other, caring about their earth,

katy:

not being

Mandy:

not naturally. Mm-hmm.

katy:

not oppressing people. Like what, what will move the needle in that way?

Mandy:

that way,

katy:

And I,

Mandy:

and I,

katy:

the

Mandy:

I think learning a lot since the past

katy:

really open to some of

Mandy:

open.

katy:

Being hard to learn and challenging maybe what we wish were true or wish could happen. But, you know,

Mandy:

But,

katy:

even

Mandy:

you know, I don't even know what that meant. I

katy:

of what I'm saying, but one of the takeaways from this

Mandy:

things

katy:

just trying to think about

Mandy:

about how,

katy:

how open we

Mandy:

how open

katy:

different tactics and strategies that, that actually do move the needle. And of course, I mean, we've talked about this a million times over the years, just of the most obvious ways is for white people to not be the center of anything. And I know I say this as a white woman talking to another white woman on a podcast, we started to talk about white women. You know, like, I think there's a role for that. I, one of the messages is

Mandy:

one of the messages.

katy:

F out of the way. Just like get, stop intervening and interfering and throw whatever resources and support you have behind people doing the work from the positions of being. The ones who are targets of things, you know,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

but I, I

Mandy:

Well, and I, yeah, I agree with that part of it completely. I also think part of the reason that it's so easy for some of these things to never go away, like these people, the segregationists and like anti federal involvement, people like never left is because they are allowed to hide in the background. And so it, it seems like we've made victories where we have not made victories, and I think being very conscious of not doing that is also very important. Like to make sure that these histories are known and to call it out when it is still going on. There was one another like Instagram reel that I remember seeing from a. Black activist, political commentator named Joshua Doss, where he pushes back a bit against the current group of liberals who are convinced that Trump stole this last election, which, whatever. That could be discussed in various ways.

katy:

the fact that people want this. Like,

Mandy:

That's what he said. He is like, if, if you do that, then that will be used as a narrative to help those people hide in the future. When hopefully we come out on the other side and people are against it, then you're, you're not making them own that choice. You're not making them have that responsibility. If you say, oh, well it was stolen, then they could say, oh, it was stolen. I didn't do that. You know, like, no, you did that. You all did that. We're gonna remember that.

katy:

Well, and

Mandy:

And that's more helpful.

katy:

about what actually we

Mandy:

What actually,

katy:

You know, and

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

is

Mandy:

I think there is this desire and.

katy:

hear it necessarily as much, but in campaign time especially, there's this rhetoric among a lot of democratic candidates, like, that's not who

Mandy:

That's not who we're mm-hmm.

katy:

I'm like,

Mandy:

It's,

katy:

it,

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

we

Mandy:

not who we wanna be. It's

katy:

it,

Mandy:

way to put it.

katy:

I don't know who's in

Mandy:

I,

katy:

we, like, I wish that we were bigger, but I, I,

Mandy:

I

katy:

appreciate that, like, just the most

Mandy:

is the most honest

katy:

possible

Mandy:

possible. And

katy:

to. Make sure and protect the histories that help explain that.

Mandy:

explain that side note.

katy:

learned

Mandy:

learned that

katy:

Iowa

Mandy:

Iowa, I

katy:

that the

Mandy:

that the branch of the state

katy:

in Iowa City

Mandy:

in Iowa City

katy:

longer

Mandy:

no longer.

katy:

they're not funding it anymore. And that's where the women's archives are for the state. That's where the labor history archives are. And so just thinking

Mandy:

And so just thinking that what happens,

katy:

that's

Mandy:

there's no plan that's been

katy:

the, the main

Mandy:

announced.

katy:

can't, they can't even take

Mandy:

They can't even take

katy:

this other

Mandy:

this other archive.

katy:

And so there's like

Mandy:

So.

katy:

are they just gonna throw things out? Are they going to try to donate them to other places? But if we no longer have a place where

Mandy:

Have a place we're

katy:

women's stories or collecting labor history stories like that makes it real easy to never teach about it because we don't, we literally don't have the

Mandy:

don't have.

katy:

of it. So it's just, yeah, a call to make sure. I've just been so frustrated by how many websites in research and work I do for my actual job. I'll try to find a

Mandy:

try to find a website.

katy:

gone. The information is

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

all, it's all information about history of people, of color, history of women,

Mandy:

Women

katy:

plus history. Those are the websites

Mandy:

are the websites.

katy:

and it is super disturbing. So just, yeah. Thinking about moving forward, what are the lessons learned? One of the lessons is to make sure we have lessons to learn because we have history.

Mandy:

Yep. Yep. Well, they can always get on and listen to us.

katy:

Until they delete the internet, we should, we should make,

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

LPs or whatever they like record albums and just have records. People can play on it like a phonograph machine. I think that's the best way to protect.

Mandy:

they'll be handed down to our great grandkids who will be like, who are these women? We don't care.

katy:

this? Oh my God. Well, I, I am

Mandy:

All right.

katy:

again and see you next week. Thanks for listening,

Mandy:

Okay. We'll see you. Bye.