Our Dirty Laundry

Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 6

• Mandy Griffin

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In this episode, Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell discuss Chapter 6 of their reading, focusing on the role of white women in the historical and political landscape post-World War II. They explore how these women perpetuated white supremacy by opposing concepts like human rights and integration, particularly through their actions at key events like the 1948 Democratic National Convention and their support of the Bricker Amendment. The chapter reveals how white women strategically used issues like anti-communism and anti-globalism to mask their racist agendas, influencing policies and elections. Discussions include the 1952 election where Eisenhower was elected largely due to the support of white southern women, and the grassroots activism that saw these women rally against treaties and educational reforms. The script underscores the importance of understanding history to see how these deeply rooted ideological conflicts have shaped modern political movements like MAGA.

Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.

Mandy:

Hi.

katy:

Hi. Hi.

Mandy:

Good to see you again.

katy:

it's so good to see you too. I know we're gonna dive right in. It's back to school time for you and it's almost back to school time for me, and I have childcare duties today and so I'm not sure how long. Thea can stay busy before we get interrupted, so we're just gonna try to squeeze this in as tight as we can. I have to say, of all the chapters we've read, this one was. May, chilling might be the right word, but just it gave me, it's like any horror movie where you realize where the source of the monster comes from and you're like, oh God. And like slowly back away because this is where it all begins. It feels like this chapter is so precisely locating so much of what we're dealing with now. Like these women would be so thrilled with what's happening now and it just made me. It like gave me horror movie, chill, stomach pains.

Mandy:

Yeah, it definitely feels like a pulling back of the curtain. About this time in school, like this was all going on as an undercurrent, but really the main current, but it's.

katy:

That's what I was thinking. Gosh. Because Mc Gray is looking at it through the lens of white women. All of these things that tend to get separated. All, you see how it all actually flows together and is connected. But when you learn history in these separate silo segments of like presidential elections or wars or this, we're gonna focus on foreign policy. It's like you miss the engine and the ways that people were connecting all these issues and. And influencing everything happening in those different spheres. I feel not like I'm advocating for US history to be taught through the lens of white women.'cause that sounds messed up, but I think it like illuminates a lot to put their actions in, like to make them the featured or a featured character in that story because then so much is illuminated so much. Makes more sense.

Mandy:

Yeah, sure.

katy:

a bad way.

Mandy:

In the,

katy:

Let's be real clear,

Mandy:

in a

katy:

oh, no.

Mandy:

horrifying way. Yeah. So this chapter is chapter six. Jim Crow's International Enemies. nationwide allies, and it starts with the 1948 Democratic National Convention where Southern Delegates walked out. Of the convention and the part that where they walked out, this is one of those horrifying moments to me, is that it says that Southern delegates literally left their seats in their convention when Minneapolis mayor, Hubert Humphrey suggested that the United States should walk into the bright sunshine of human rights.

katy:

I marked that too. Yeah. No. I will not have human rights. No, it just so shocking. And I know we can sit through and we will parse through all the reasons why they put the puzzle pieces together. And they weren't wrong. Like this, the way of life that they were fighting so hard for was being threatened by caring about human rights. But I just, what I cannot ever get past is how. You say no to that? How you say no to a world where everybody's safe and free and treating each other well, and you're like, no thanks. I prefer a hierarchy and fighting really hard to stay on top of other people. That's what I want.

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

How.

Mandy:

what that's my thought, like imagine. Being that person that gets like their panties in a bunch over human rights. I don't know. I don't know. It's such a fearful way to live. I think. So

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

is rooted in fear and I am like, why? I don't know. I don't get it. Where, why? Where does that come from?

katy:

I don't know. Maybe it's like that adage like, hurt people, hurt people. Again, everyone needs therapy. That's what we should just be raising money for is massive counseling treatments for people. But it does just strike me as the, like a disbelief that people will take care of each other. And the only way to do it is to have like your, tight-knit little group. That's who you're loyal to and fuck everybody else. That's, that seems like what it comes down to. Maybe it's not that simple, but I don't know how else to. Make sense of it like it is. It is so fearful and it just seems like there's so much distrust. I don't believe you. Like when I think about the human rights, it's great, if we have human rights, then everyone's human rights are protected and we all look out for each other. And that's that.

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

And I don't know why they are thinking like, oh, I. Be I if it's like I don't, some of it is eugenic straight up I don't believe everyone is human. Some of it is I don't, if that happens, like I don't believe that people will protect me or maybe it's even to what I want protected these people say is bad, and so I don't wanna, because yeah, we're not gonna protect white supremacy. That's true. Correct.

Mandy:

Yeah. I think some of the fear also is that white supremacy allowed, quite frankly, people who are not as intelligent or not as. Able as others to still achieve success in whatever way, monetary way, power way, whatever. So that they see an equalization as

katy:

A loss.

Mandy:

Yeah. A loss, which for

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

it is.

katy:

When you have.

Mandy:

a mediocre white male. And become

katy:

And Lord over other people.

Mandy:

So it's oh, we have to actually compete we don't wanna have to do that because we won't win in that situation.

katy:

It just, I don't know. I'm, and maybe it's just all of those things to a certain extent, combined together. It's just shocking to read it, be that bold oh, they want human rights. Bye. We're not, we don't yeah. It's wild.

Mandy:

This is, this chapter is specifically tying that to this international segment where you bring in the United Nations, which we ended last week talking about how the United Nations became such a threat to the conservative agenda. And I think this is the focus mostly that chapter.

katy:

And it's, it really did, does such a great job at explaining it how all of these policy issues. Come from the same fear, On the surface they look so disconnected. Like I mentioned last time, I've never really understood why MAGA or why the Tea Party was so anti UN and like where that just seemed like a random thing for them to really have conspiracy theories about. It's oh no, it actually makes total sense. They McRay calls, the human rights part of the United Nations, another odious offspring of Eleanor Roosevelt, who actually chaired the UN's Commission on Human Rights and helped to. Get the Declaration of Human Rights written I thought that was a great descriptor, odious, offspring. And that it was almost like states' rights taken to an international level, like you are going to threaten our national sovereignty. But of course, the way that they're understanding national sovereignty is through a very white Christian nationalist lens. So internationalism, that's celebrating multiculturalism, that's that's like making public how. Not true eugenics is, and how race science is actually not science and race is a social construction. Like once you, if you decide to throw your hat in the ring with those people, you know you have to give up a lot of these other systems. And it was interesting to talk about how initially white segregationists in the South, didn't automatically make that connection. It wasn't like bing bang, boom really quick, but it was as like a bunch of different. Streams are gathering strength. So it's the Human Rights Convention. It's the post World War II holding accountable of Nazis for genocide. It's an uptick in the double victory of black veterans coming home and the Civil Rights Movement really picking up momentum, communism. Coming into the United States because Russia was an ally of the United States during World War ii. I think a lot of people forget that. But thinking about communism as the other end of the. Political economic spectrum is fascist fascism, and so communism becoming more popular and sparking labor disputes and labor rights, rights for workers, social security, the new deal, like all of these things coming together and coalescing around just a core belief in people's fundamental equality and. Human rights.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

then as it becomes clear that these things are connected in different spaces, like the University of North Carolina, that was a spot that people, white supremacist women were watching really closely and saying no. We see what's going on here. They're indoctrinating. Our youth and communists are coming and civil rights people are coming and we're making all these connections. And we see the UN as part of that. And. Really pushing against very vocally what they saw as overstep overreach, the domestic. Oh, I'll just, I loved this phrase too. Domestic political vigilantes What these white women were. Sorry, go ahead.

Mandy:

No, I

katy:

I.

Mandy:

say, I just, I found it interesting that. That she does point out that the South did not reject the United Nations. As you were saying, initially, they were some of the most supportive of the un.

katy:

Initially.

Mandy:

They said that they had a 90% approval of the UN in 1945 because it didn't seem like a threat. They saw it as a way for people to support. Global cooperation. I just, it's interesting that it didn't turn until they started getting involved. It seems like one of the major coalescing parts is when they came out with curriculum.

katy:

That's it. That's literally, yes. Like at least when we're reading through Mick Gray's work, UNESCO launches this like multicultural anti eugenics curriculum. That to me sounded great. It was like, here's anti international's. Anti internationalists, like these white women in the chapter we've been learning about, believed that UNESCO promoted collectivism elevated the status of non-white nations and eroded white supremacist beliefs. And I drew a heart like, great, yay. And it's, they were like, dead body, like they didn't want that.

Mandy:

No.

katy:

it and it was a place then I al so I think, yes, that my take on it was that was a real tipping point. And then another piece I think were these white women. In particular who were able to. Start talking about their beliefs in a colorblind kind of way, and realizing that there was a lot of power that they could get people to join them who didn't necessarily, weren't motivated by white supremacy explicitly, but were interested in different tax policies or whatever. That you could have this colorblind conservatism that linked cold, the cold war with white supremacy, but it didn't have to be that obvious. And so I think once they figured out Ooh, we can get even more people on our side if we lead with this anti-communist slant. Which of course is not just about white supremacy, but it's about patriarchy, it's about heterosexism, it's about all of these things, then that we can smuggle in other ideologies. The anti-communist and white supremacy connection I think is just. Really important to understand. And again, even in more progressive US history curate, those aren't always super linked together. There is, there are some examples of it, but that it just, wow, it said, it struck me as such a strong connection when reading this chapter. Another piece that I noticed from this chapter that we've already talked about a little bit, but was stronger here is that. Because the UN was a global thing, like an international thing that it allowed southern white people to say it's those outsiders on an even higher level. Like our black people are happy and fine and stop putting ideas into their head and stop getting mad about how they're treated when they're not even mad. It allowed them to erase all of the activism and work people were doing in the South. Black people, other people of color to, for white people to blame it on these internationalists. Like again, just very similar to reconstruction. Oh, it's these damn Yankees coming in. It's oh, it's these, it's the UN that is putting these ideas in people's head or making it sound like people are unhappy when they actually love life here and they love us and trust us. And even to the point where, remember where they're talking about protesting, paying social security. For domestic workers. That part made me so angry. I know this comes later in the chapter, but it was like the literally saying out loud, the slave owners. Here was the Dallas Morning News ran an editorial. That said, back under slavery, of course, every slave holder provided social security for his retired slaves under the welfare state. Uncle Sam moves in to compel the colored help of East Texas to compel negro workers to take it out. That line, like that passage was so disturbing oh yes, the reti retired slaves. Even thinking that's a concept was.

Mandy:

a thing? Yeah.

katy:

Bizarre and then to believe that there, there's some like really great care that. People are giving people, they're enslaving, aside from just basic, keeping them alive so that they can work for them. It's just I could not that was just gross. And then to think that's written, a couple generations removed, but just again, so much of this keeping alive, this idea that slavery was not that bad and how we are hearing that more and more lately oh, it's really not as bad as people make it sound. In fact, like. It was it. People were better off under slavery. It's just insane.

Mandy:

Yeah. And then they go on to talk about how like these new deal programs and these, federal welfare kinds of programs were actually damaging the black population. And. Also like damaging white women because they couldn't find black women to work for them because they were saying that like they're all on the welfare roles, so

katy:

God, it

Mandy:

we can't get them to work for us because they'd all just rather be on welfare. If we do get them to work for us, we're penalized again because now we have to pay. Taxes, we have to pay social security benefits. So how are we supposed to get along when federal programs are coming in and making it so hard for us to exploit people?

katy:

It's like the birth. You just look at how the moment that those programs start, that's the birth of the myth of the welfare queen, And the birth of the myth of black people just can't wait to not do anything and just get checks from the government like that, those stereotypes that are still so powerful. Just to hear these white women talking about it in the moment as it's all. Beginning and that they already are trying to promote that myth is so incredibly frustrating and disturbing.

Mandy:

there's one part where they talk about an address that, kane Gibbs, was that Mary Elizabeth Kane, I think is her.

katy:

Oh, what is her name? Mary Dawson. Kane. Yes.

Mandy:

But she gave an address that she entitled The Octopus of Socialism, which can I just tell you that I love because I love octopuses and

katy:

I

Mandy:

you

katy:

do too.

Mandy:

it that way. See, you can say both octopuses and octopi. This is a discussion I've had. I love them and so I

katy:

I do too.

Mandy:

she used them in this kind of Negative way because I'm like, sweet. One more reason for me to love octopuses. The

katy:

I.

Mandy:

white women hated them, so she linked it to socialism and those were the like. arms she said were causing bringing the United States to the brink of demise taxation, public welfare subsidies, public power, public housing. Quote, the rotten dollar foreign policy and tax exempt co-ops. So it's like all of these, anything that had to do with public support of people

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

seen as this negative arm of socialism that was going to ruin the United States, and that was also. Part of the whole UN effort. She says the UN was also godless and part of an effort to sell our nation down the international river in the name of humanitarianism. I was like, oh man, I'm getting an octopus tattoo, I

katy:

Oh my gosh. No I was just saying that should be our new symbol because I also love. Octopi octopuses the octopus for sure. I think that's great. And just a reminder yes, all of these things are things that I love, and that I support, but it also helped me understand why socialism is considered such a bad. Word oh, don't say you're socialist because you'll be dead in the water if you wanna try to get elected. Or, more people hate socialism than JD Vance, which is saying a lot because I don't think anybody likes JD Vance, like not even his family. I can't imagine given how he treats them. So yeah, it is like the, but I, again, this is where the war that they're. Waging is not just for policies, it's for people's imaginations and for the way that people think about things. So if you can connect okay, Truman has this loyalty oath that he issues because he's worried about communists in the Cold War. The Cold War is starting. Great. Then we can tack onto that and then we can say, what else is anti-American? Like, all these other things, like if people are getting riled up about being un-American, what a, what an opportunity to slip in all these other things that you have long believed, white Christian nationalists kinds of ideas. So yes, I. Love the idea of an octopus. And I actually wrote Fuck off in this page because this lady, Mary Dawson Kane really made me mad and it was making me think of Dean Kane. I actually did a little petty detective thing.

Mandy:

if they were In any way.

katy:

I don't know. I don't think they are.

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

Kane is his stepdad's name, so they wouldn't even be related by because do you know what his biological dad's last name is?

Mandy:

No.

katy:

Tanaka, he's Japanese and he has family who was incarcerated. During World Wari. Yes. And yet he is his mom and dad. Apparently he never knew his biological father and his dad left the scene, left the situation. Who knows what happened, but he is now want recruiting people for ice. The actor who played. Superman. This was the show that was like Hotsy Totsy show when we were teenagers. And he's joining ICE and trying to recruit people. It's like all the same language and oh God, like again, therapy. Therapy would be helpful for these people.

Mandy:

oh, gross.

katy:

My God.

Mandy:

Yeah, so that reminds me of one section in this chapter where it talks about a court case in 1951, which is Perez versus California, which challenged the state's prohibition on persons of Japanese ancestry owning land. And in that challenge, they cited part of the UN's charter to support overturning this ban

katy:

Which ps that's another piece of history that I don't think people really know are that these, there were these laws against. Citizen, just there's just so much history that people will need to know better. Okay? Yes. So that court case and that they were using the UN to bolster their argument for why that should be unconstitutional, to deny people the right to own land when they are in their own country. Yes.

Mandy:

then the DAR, one of our favorites, daughters of

katy:

Know.

Mandy:

Magazine then ran articles after that warning members that the UN conventions could be invoked to overturn anti miscegenation laws it had been used to overturn racially exclusive property legislation in California. And so they, one of the chapters of the DAR in Illinois. Held one of their statewide essay contests on

katy:

No.

Mandy:

United States should not belong to a world government organization, because they just see this as not only is the federal government getting too big and allowing all of these social programs to start being enacted, now we have something even bigger than the federal government. We have a worldwide organization that's now interfering and influencing court cases, and they're gonna just. Keep going further and further and further encroaching into this way of life that these white southerners were ready to literally die, to keep

katy:

and in this, again, this is Ogden, Florence Ogden. We've been talking about these women that, that Mick Ray just keeps following through the decades and all of their nefarious on ongoing just. O. Yes. But they talks about the Daughters of American Revolution passing formal resolutions against the United Nations World Government and the Genocide Treaty. And so I was laughing how you were remembering that you won a DAR essay contest. And I was like, dear God, what if it was like, why genocide is okay by Mandy Griffin, my Mandy, it wouldn't be Griffin, like you're. Little fifth grade, however old you're, I'm sure you would not, I don't think you would've, I think you would've seen through that at that age even. But that,

Mandy:

whatever it was to be able to find that connection. What

katy:

totally.

Mandy:

thing that they

katy:

Oh, it's probably something sketchy.

Mandy:

I'm sure.

katy:

but this what I thought, this is just so wild especially right after World War II and. This horrifically very well documented genocide. Not that's the first or last genocide for sure. And there's really interesting research about, just why certain genocides become better known than others. And of course, this connected to racism and cla like classism and all sorts of things. Coming hot off the heels of the holocaust to say, we don't want a genocide treaty, we don't want to prevent future gen. No.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

Let's not prevent that because, and here's what Florence Ogden says, that it would be illegal to make derogatory statements about the naacp, which in my, I put for fuck's sake in the margins here, because it's do you, oh my God. Like complaining about someone even being racist and saying something ignorant and racist and bigoted doesn't, is not the same as genocide. Do people not understand what genocide is, first of all, anyway, but also then shares what she's arguing. A negro, a Chinese or a member of any racial minority could insult you or your daughter. And of course they're saying daughter, Not saying kid they're very explicitly saying you, to protect your virgin daughter.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

Your husband might shoot him, knock him down, or cuss him out. If so, he could be tried in an international court. It would also make it a crime to prevent interracial marriage. Racial intermarriage and intermarriage would destroy the white race, which has brought Christianity to the world like, good God,

Mandy:

bring Christianity there in the end. Like we can't destroy the white race because of Christianity. Like the, I don't get it. I

katy:

no.

Mandy:

the line of thinking. Yeah, but that's what they said they

katy:

Like we won't be able to beat up people anymore. So get don't support This basically in a nutshell is what it is. Like it's just wild. But very, all of these women in whatever platforms they had, building their platforms, actually becoming more popular by linking isolationism, anti-communism, and white supremacy. Which I was like, oh, ding, ding, ding. Maga. That's what it is. It's America first. It's Which is old, old, old and anti-communist, which I don't know that I hear people calling anybody communist. I, maybe they are, and I just, I'm not in those circles, but to me it's socialism has replaced communism and then white supremacy. I mean, that's what it is. And I will, this would be an interesting. Like side note rabbit hoods go down is the New York mayoral election and watching the coalition coalescing. To prevent the Democratic nominee from winning because he's an octopus, basically. Why, and it's I see you. I like, maybe you say you're against one of these branches. Oh, I would never be white supremacist, but I'm all here for rich people getting richer. It's just so when the rubber meets the road, that coalition will set aside whatever values they say they have

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

attack somebody,

Mandy:

we've seen again and again and again in

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

of progressive politics, not becoming

katy:

Progressive white people. Let's be real clear about that. And then this was also, it seemed like maybe one of the early moments where these moms, they created a group called The Minute Women, which I'm guessing is like the Minute Men, which are, it's Gross. And then The, they start running for school board elections. So it's like the roots of Moms for Liberty and all these other groups that we've. Been learning about. And here this to the point we're just making about the ways that people can so easily set aside things they say they care about, that mainstream conservatives agreed with them about the UN And I would even say about like tax policies and things like that, even though they disagreed with these women's anti-Semitic and fascist beliefs. And that's how we look at this last election was like, yeah, you're pro fascist, pretty blatantly, but are my taxes gonna be lower?'cause that sounds good.

Mandy:

I need my eggs to be cheaper. So

katy:

I,

Mandy:

you wanna just lock people up in cages with no due process, that's okay. As long as gas

katy:

am I getting richer? It is so infuriating. There's also this,

Mandy:

was,

katy:

oh, go ahead.

Mandy:

I was gonna say just one more point back in the DAR and their anti United Nations. In one case, the DAR, it says, they said the United Nations was a threat to private property Christianity and minority rights. However, the minority that they were talking about was whites. In this case,

katy:

Yeah, they're worried about white people.

Mandy:

Whites are the minority. Rights count if you

katy:

When it's me.

Mandy:

but

katy:

Yeah. As long as we're the minority. Oh my God. I hate them. I hate them so much. This, there was this pro-America group that gets started and this was just like this early school board elections. This was a group of women in Pasadena, California, which. California, again, when we think of places as not problematic and we don't see the ways that these women travel and these ideas travel, we can write off things that happen. But this was in California in 1950.

Mandy:

says like pro-America was originally founded in Seattle

katy:

Yes. Yes.

Mandy:

I was like, Seattle.

katy:

these, they're everywhere.

Mandy:

California. It's everywhere. It's not the typical places that we're

katy:

No. So I really wanna do more research just personally for projects I'm working on for my actual job to look into this man, Willard Goslin, who was a superintendent in Pasadena and apparently really outspoken about equity. About multicultural curriculum wanting to have a global education for students to learn about all different parts of the world. Advocated sex ed and was a celebrated superintendent, but of course not for these ladies. And so they rallied together and launched this campaign and got him fired. And I thought, God, that's like such an early example. And then that example traveled, like women talked about that and shared what they were able to do, and so it became this. Like guiding case study for women to keep going and take that to their community. I thought, God, that's again, something that's happening today. Also interesting that they linked sex ed to all of this, so of course it's just all connected. So it MC Gray said these women enjoyed school board victories, the thrill of working for successful political campaigns, grassroots organizing, publishing, and the benefits of an increasingly national network of white. Conservative women that ends up including Phil Schley. I know. I never know how to pronounce that.

Mandy:

I think it's sh Schlafly,

katy:

I just wanna say shit. Face

Mandy:

version again and I'll, and

katy:

Schlafly. Okay.

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

That she's starting to get involved at this time as like a young, early days of her rise. That, these are her mentors that are the women we've been learning about. And then even running for office. So Mary Dawson Kane runs for governor twice, I think, Win, but. Is clearly trying to galvanize support and do, pulling all these stunts, oh my God, I hate these stupid stunts. Like it's, it just reminded me of Christie. No, I'm dressing up and just all these just, oh my God, it's so frustrating. But she refused to pay her social security taxes in protests and then the federal government padlocked her newspaper office. Because she owed back taxes and so she dramatically marches to the offices and cuts through the locks, getting the nickname Hacksaw Mary. It just made me think of Joni Ernst campaign videos too, where she's got like a gun and she's I shoot pigs in the face. I don't know what it that's not exactly right, but basically, just God why? And then these other women in Texas, who were they? They were refusing to pay their taxes, which we've talked about, like just all these interesting. Ways that they found to be, to use their political agency, which I definitely, there is a part of me that absolutely appreciates that level. And we've talked about this before, like they're, they are using tactics that I don't want to ignore for their power. They're not using them to the ends that I want them used for, that's for sure.

Mandy:

This really feels like the time where white women get very good at hiding their racist agenda behind other political issues.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

I feel like before this. The World War ii, the un, this international shift towards more globalism and anti-racism. The, view on the US as being behind as far as equality issues go. It changed the way that these white women could talk about things. Before it was just fine to be openly racist but now they had to get sneakier about it. I don't, they had to hide it and then, and they did it really well and it seems like something they continue to do. In politics today. But the one example of that that I thought was really good that came up in this chapter was the story of Frank Porter Graham,

katy:

Mm.

Mandy:

was the president of, chapel Hill, UNC, and. I think it was Nell Lewis. Yes, Nell Lewis and her incidentally column that ran for so long

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

was kind of involved in the takedown of Frank Porter Graham, but not directly for race. She used more of the communism angle to go after him. So at this point in time, there was a communist. There was an. Communist Party and North Carolina's chapter of the Communist Party was working on the campus of Chapel Hill to kind of organize interracial workers unions and also looking for people to join the Communist Party, which I also thought, isn't that wild? Can you imagine if there were Communist party chapters operating like that

katy:

No,

Mandy:

today?

katy:

I'm sure there are, but just in, in terms of like how popular

Mandy:

clubs on universities. Yeah. Like that. And that also just points to how this was such a pivotal time, I think, in US politics and how the spectrum of politics changed so much at this point in time. It took. A literal hard. Right. In this time period, I feel like because there was more of a discussion of communist political stances, socialist political stances, and I think you mentioned this before, it's just like that was hard stomped out

katy:

Yep.

Mandy:

this point in time, and it's where everything went more. Right. And it seems like we've just kept going right and right and right.

katy:

I think the success is, and again, hopefully we get to talk to Elizabeth Gpi McGray and ask her more questions about this, but at least from our perspective and what we've been reading and studying, it's like this elixir magic, not in a good way, like dark the dark

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

When you combine anti-communism with these other things, with white supremacy, with homophobia, with. patriarchy, you know, you, you combine those all together, then it's an easier sell to people. Like there's something for everyone to hate on, you know, like a smorgasbord of bigotry. So I, I, part of me wonders about, I don't know. I know, I know. We're always trying to think of what are the lessons for today? And I'm sure some historians would bristle at that. Like, that's not the point of history. I would say, well, what is the point of history? Like if you're not

Mandy:

Right.

katy:

learn from what is going on today, what are we doing? I, I wonder about the ways that, you know, making those connections, exposing those connections for people really, really explicitly. And I think some politicians on the left are actually really good at doing this. Like, these things are all connected and you just pulling back the curtain to, to say like, this, all, this all does. Interact, this, this all meshes together because I, to your point with the, what women were doing at this time, what white women were doing kind of hiding, like you said, but it's not hard to find. They were still being explicitly racist. Like it's it you had to willfully look away or not pay attention to everything they were saying, which I think is how. People get support. Now I think about people in my own family when they describe why they voted for Trump. It's like, well, I don't like this or that, or I think, I mean, my 97-year-old grandpa just told me the other day, he's a despicable human, but he's making all the right decisions. And I just started laughing. I was like, grandpa, well, like first of all, you cannot tease apart. The person from the actions, you know, A, you know, and B, that no, he's not making

Mandy:

Nobody's fine.

katy:

Like, let's get into that. But it, it's like the ability to just say, well, I, the reason I'm supporting this is for this reason. That's more innocuous, even though it's deeply embedded and tied to all these other things. So, I don't know. Not that, again, like I, you know, I, I want us to learn. From lessons from these eras, and one of the things that I'm taking away is, God, these, they're good at these tactics.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

I don't think it's exactly the same as just applying those tactics. It's not like a one-to-one correlation, but there's some of that. And I, I think like going hard and being explicit about values and ideals and not linking yourself to a particular party setting up like a vision of an ideal. World that you're striving for, that is really powerful. And having people, lots of access points into that to say, to help people understand how all these systems are in fact connected. So they're not, they're not wrong in connecting all these dots, they're just connecting them to lead people to a fascist white Christian nationalist agenda. That's the problem,

Mandy:

Yeah. Which is where we're at now. So Nell Lewis was very pissed off at Frank Porter Graham and used this. As a way of saying that like universities are gradually coming after the youth of the state and they're going to destroy their entire way of life again.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

she wrote that one communist professor could influence 50 or more young men and women, which is certainly more dangerous than a red government clerk who does not have access to the minds of the state's youth. So she was already going after grandma this time that he was at Chapel Hill.

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

But then he. Ran for Senate in 1950 and he was running against this man last name. I know his last name was Smith. I can't remember what his full name was.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Willis Smith. He was a conservative banker, Willis Smith. And Louis wanted to support Smith and. I tried to use her column incidentally to tell all of the woes of like what Graham had done at Chip Hill, what he was gonna end up doing to the state. The problem being that Lewis's boss, Jonathan Daniels, was a supporter. Of Porter Graham, so he was not letting her go full out against him, and Graham ended up winning the first primary against Smith, but then she red Redoubled down. There was a second primary, which I don't really know how that works.

katy:

was confused about that too. But yes, there's still some other way for the

Mandy:

Yeah, so apparently like Smith called for a second primary and they had a second primary, which I'm like, how long would these elections go on if everyone who lost was just like, let's do it again actually. So he the then at that point in time, Lewis gets like much more explicit in her column about the issues that she thinks is Graham is a problem with. They couch it in these terms of like ever tightening state control over the lives of citizens of the country. And the part about that that I think you have to look into a little bit further too, is. They're going after the state control. It's the same thing that's used in today's arguments, like the state's trying to control your family. They're trying to control all of these things that you can do with your kids and education and you know, school vouchers and school choice, all of that kinda crap. But it's really not about control as much as who's doing the controlling, because when you look at. The quote unquote values that these people were promoting then and still promoting. Now it's just a different locus of control for them. It's like they wanna be the ones who are controlling people or they want Christianity controlling people. That's fine if you have, you know, fathers controlling families, patriarchy, controlling women

katy:

Right. It's what?

Mandy:

controlling people.

katy:

to what ends. And you say this all the time, that it's not tit for tat like extreme evil is the same as extreme Good.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

So saying that the state is gonna intervene to let everybody just live their lives is not the same as the state's gonna intervene to impose. particular ideology that's actually rooted in bigotry and oppression on everybody else. Those are not the same

Mandy:

Right,

katy:

you

Mandy:

right.

katy:

So that, that's the part that is pretty bonkers, is Yeah, it's not, it's not about pro. Government intervention or anti-government intervention. It's intervention for what ends, because

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

is ar you know, except anarchists I guess are arguing for some measure of government intervention. It's just based on, based on what,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

that, there's so many quotes in here that are just so damning, but one at one point she and her editor get into a big

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

and she screamed, I hope all your daughters have n-word babies. So if anyone's unclear about where

Mandy:

About where exactly?

katy:

I think that kind of zips it up, you know?

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah.

katy:

much

Mandy:

It's

katy:

the other part, this is a whole other rabbit hole we could go down, but I did just wanna point this out for listeners that Lewis, so it, it's not even like, is Porter his name? No. Graham Porter. Yes.

Mandy:

Frank Porter Graham. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

katy:

That it's, it's not even like Graham is so progressive and liberal, like we're talking like relatively speaking, you

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

but that he, in, in the campaign is is talking about of like a future that's maybe gradually bringing the south up to speed, you know,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Lewis is. Explicitly calling on an and promising a return to this is again, kind of make America great again. You know, back when we pushed back against reconstruction and got reconstruction ended, he is drawing on the 1898 white supremacist campaign. That's literally the name of it that led to this coup in Wilmington.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

about this

Mandy:

I don't know the history of it.

katy:

kind of in the news in January 6th when people were like, this is unprecedented. And some historians were like, not really, sadly,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Carolina had about 20,000 people. 8,000 black people voted in elections, and I'm not really sure exactly what led to it. I think there were, were a lot of reconstruction policies that were going well, like this was a success story

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

So you had. A lot of black people voting, which again leads to representation in government. So three of the 10 aldermen were black. The, there were black police officers, black post officer workers, a black county treasurer, a black county coroner, a black registrar, a black dealer, like it was a very integrated community. There were three black owned bank collectives, and so there was. Generational wealth being built. There were black businesses, there was a black newspaper, and so the as reconstruction gets stopped, white people in this community were like, this is our chance planned. A literal coup called the white supremacy campaign, where they rose up, people, burned things down, pushed out, like it was an actual coup that was successful. Hundreds of people were killed. Thousands of black people left like fled Wilmington. And then the newspaper coverage was absolutely gaslighting. So there wasn't even like the kind of. Of documentation that you would expect. It was a lot of oral traditions that got passed down. And so this story has really been unearthed in recent years about just how awful and intentional, and this wasn't even the newspapers that covered it, called it like a race riot or whatever, but it's like, no, no, no. It was an actual coup planned by white people to overthrow. people who had economic and political power, and it was a, it was successful. So

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

anyway, the, the Lewis candidate that she's supporting was tipping his hat to that saying like, remember the good old days and that we can have that again, you know,

Mandy:

yeah, yeah.

katy:

which is just so gross.

Mandy:

Well, and there was a lot of that like. Hearkening back to that era among these women at that point in time, but also talks about, this is on page 1 55 just this revival of Henry Grady during this point in time. And I, that name was familiar to me, but McCray doesn't really get into talking about the specifics of Henry Grady. So I looked that up a little bit to remind myself of who he was. So, tucker and Kane were both involved in his revival and Tucker urged all public schools to spend time teaching Henry Grady's new South speech. So I looked up his New South. So Henry Grady was kind of like known as the spokesman for the New South during the immediate post civil war era. I think he was a newspaper editor, is why he had such a large voice at that point in time. He kind of sold this idea of the New South, but also I. While still being very apologetic to the South's past. Although he, he even recognizes that and says that it's not supposed to be an apology, but, okay, so listen to this. So I looked up this speech, it's pretty short. I'm not gonna read the whole thing. But he talks about how, you know this, there's this new south who has this new opportunity who's, you know, standing now with the light of glory on her. He says, this is said in no spirit of time serving or apology. The South has nothing for which to apologize. She believes the late struggle between the states was war and not rebellion, revolution and not conspiracy, and that her convictions were as honest as yours. I'm like, again, I also don't like this whole like it. What do they call that when you give an in anate object? Like personification? Yeah. Anthropomorphizing the South as in some, you know, female kind of character.

katy:

I don't know. Given everything we're

Mandy:

It could be.

katy:

No.

Mandy:

might be.

katy:

the idea that you like, if anything way the entire nation has so much to apologize for like that it's not just the South, I would say that, but to look back at the history and be like, Nope, nothing to see here. Every, you know, we were all just sincerely. Wanting autonomy. It just, it's, it is laughable if it,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

in like the most serious way. You know, just looking at the documents, the secession documents, they, when people were seceding, they were very clear about why, and it was to define slavery. You

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

and you can't move me in the eye and say, you don't have anything to apologize for about that. Like, oh my God. It's just the unwillingness to recognize the inhumanity. genocidal system of child slavery is insane to be like, well, we just, we took good care of people and they were happier. That, oh my God, it's just all so, it's just such, it's so delusional the, I think the part that's hard is, and maybe this doesn't matter, trying to suss out whether people genuinely believe the delusion or whether they know they're selling an absolute load of crap, but it just serves them. it

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and there's also like a rewriting of history that occurs in people's own brains, I think, to try to justify like what they were doing once they realized that their. Pause was lost, you know?

katy:

Well,

Mandy:

they say, yeah, not so lost. Not so lost.

katy:

they're right. So the, this all segues into, you know, they've had practice working on elections, they've had practice with these petitions for things they've, you know, been influencing. And I think the last two pieces of this chapter to look at just the way that white women under the leadership of. Tucker, all these other women were really throwing their political weight around and leveraging the fact that they weren't necessarily trying to seek political office. That, that, that was rare. The exception one is the Bricker amendment, which we can talk a little

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

And then one is Eisenhower's election, and that's this shift. That's like when the Republican party becomes more recognizable to us as a more modern.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

of the Republican party. It thanks

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

women. Hey. But what do you wanna do first? The election or the Bricker amendment?

Mandy:

can't remember which one comes for sure, if they're both just at the same time

katy:

I

Mandy:

because

katy:

election comes just first.'cause I think they

Mandy:

just,

katy:

to influence Eisenhower to support the Bricker amendment.

Mandy:

Wrap.

katy:

let's take a little time travel back. Is it

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

Is

Mandy:

1952 is the presidential election that we are talking about here. And this is like the same time period, which I thought we should do a mini. So on this, so put a bit in this is that this is the same time that the the words under God get added to the Pledge of Allegiance. We have to do a thing.

katy:

we

Mandy:

'cause this is all going under the same time.

katy:

Yep

Mandy:

but so it is the 1952 election and it is Eisenhower, who is he running against? This is embarrassing. This whole thing and I don't even know, we this running against

katy:

I bet it was a white man.

Mandy:

For sure. For sure. Okay, well, we'll find that in a second. So. These women decide that they're gonna basically break with the Democratic Party at this point, and they're supporting Eisenhower and they basically put it on women to elect him. So this is when Ogden claims that a Republican president was the only hope they had for defeat of the FEPC, which is the Fair Employment Practice Committee. Is that what it stands for? Okay.

katy:

that, yeah, some,

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

of connection to New Deal, like equality stuff. Yeah.

Mandy:

labor laws, all of that kind of thing. And she says if women were unmoved by their duties as citizens and white supremacists, she called on them to vote Republican in the name of their children.

katy:

Yeah. It's such a, I wrote in the, this is such a weird moment because you have these white women very, very explicitly committed to white supremacy, seeing the Republicans as their way forward, but you still have black support for Republicans too, in a more traditional, the black. Like the Republican party being the party against slavery. I know we're putting everything into a black, white binary right now, and I know it's more complicated than that. Like

Mandy:

yep.

katy:

it, but if anything, this is kind of how the book sets it up too. But so it wasn't, black voters were still supporting Eisenhower. I think this is why Eisenhower was able to win, is that white women tip the scales. It's just this like strange bedfellows in this one election. Which I'm thinking if a lot of voters. Who supported the Republican party knew what it was gonna become. They would not have cast their votes. But it, I can imagine it being hard to stomach voting for a Democrat because historically that was the party that was explicitly opposed to equality. You'll, so you're just in this

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

weird limbo period. But it was 59% of white southern women cast their ballot for Eisenhower, which was 18%. More than white southern men. So it's really because of white women, which of course I cannot help but think of recent

Mandy:

Always.

katy:

like that is god dammit. Like, stop, just stop. Not, I'd almost said stop voting, which then made me feel like I'm one of those

Mandy:

Oh.

katy:

Yeah, coming around. That's like, woman shouldn't vote. It should be households, whatever.

Mandy:

Katie Swalwell agrees with Pete Hegseth.

katy:

right here, right? Oh God, no. It's just like good grief, but they were just so engaged, speaking everywhere, pamphlets, you know, like a gazillion. Speeches and tours that they were trying to encourage people to vote for Eisenhower and it, and it works. So even though it doesn't flip every county, they make huge gains and

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

And then it does end up flipping. And at one point it even says here from 22 states people requested copies of Kane's newspaper expressing their admiration for her Americanism. And I wrote, oh, there's more than, that's more than the states in the south. So that's,

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

katy:

a, so this is, again, it's not a northern, southern thing. You know, that's easy to be dismissive in that way, but that's just not true. So Eisenhower carries five southern states with majorities in black belt districts. Again, this like very strange alliance of people coming together and. White women seeing an opportunity to get what they want from the shifting political wins and actually being the, the reason those political wins are shifting to a

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

you

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

not just taking advantage of it. They're manufacturing it. then we get the Eisenhower's president, and then we get the Bricker amendment,

Mandy:

Yes.

katy:

is a proposal that would mean the president could. No longer ha the, the treaty approval process, like a president would negotiate that treaty, the Senate approves it, but that it, the amendment said it would go to the state legislatures to

Mandy:

To ratify it. Mm-hmm.

katy:

a treaty with foreign governments,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

I can only imagine. Like I read that and I was like, dear

Mandy:

long do you think this would happen? Like we would never enter into any treaties ever, because there's no way you're gonna get ratified by all of the states. But it's basically going for this fear of like a worldwide government coming in and interfering with domestic law. Which again is directly tied back to racism because those are all the examples that they use is, well, you know, if you go out there and beat up a person of color, then you could be tried. In international law, we don't want that, so we're not gonna,

katy:

that that's always their example to scare people into supporting them is

Mandy:

like, you can no longer yell racist things and physically harm people. I, that's their argument. That's really what they went after. It's, yeah. I don't know,

katy:

it, and it worked, although this, the amendment did not pass it lost by

Mandy:

but oh my, by one vote. Yeah, one vote, which I thought it was like, oh my gosh. Again, the ways that history could shift, if there was like one different. Thing it made me, it reminded me of like Susan Collins and like the last,

katy:

or

Mandy:

big, beautiful bill and yeah.

katy:

what's his name?

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

Manchin. Yes.

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah.

katy:

like, no. Well, the. There was so much of this that I thought, oh, it's just a matter of time before this becomes what they're proposing again. You

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

knows then what the vote would be. But so much of this, like I think we mentioned before, Phyllis, good old Phyllis

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

involved as one of the Bricker activists. They were called Vigilant women, and they presented. petitions, they spoke on the floor, which I, I don't know how people are getting onto the floor of Congress to their 2

Mandy:

Yeah,

katy:

know how that's

Mandy:

when did that happen? And then stop happening.

katy:

mean, honestly, thank God it's done. But the part of it to like other things that they're proposing is, like support for being able to deport subversive

Mandy:

Yeah. Subversives that looked, sounded like language straight out of something that would happen today.

katy:

Yes,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

So really like all, all of this is leading up to the Brown V Board decision. That I think is, is really where we're headed for, which is you've got all these women in my head I'm hearing like Eye of the Tiger, you know, like they're just like jacked and ready to pounce. You know? They

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

pumped up. They've had a bunch of wins. They have this network ready to go. are. Like armed in terms of a, a ton of tactics that they have proven work and are flexible and ready to go, and I just don't know. On the side that's arguing. I don't think it's as simple as like side A, side B, but there's, I don't know how else to talk about it. Like a, a side that wants the opposite set of things. I know that there's lots of organizing and there's like a lot of movement and this is, we've actually talked about this when we talked about white feminism and the different quote waves of feminism

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

about third world feminism sort of emerging it like. there's a lot, there is a lot happening, but

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

of the level of resources and the level of networking, like they are just laying the groundwork. And I, I think about the success of overturning Roe v Wade and the ways that so many of these plans were, the foundations were laid in this era, and I think they knowingly said, this is going to take a like. Generations. You know, we're, we're doing the work that we might not even see in our lifetime, but we are going to lay the foundation for this nation state that we wanna see, and that it's playing out. Like they were dedicated, they were a patient, they're fuckery was just, you know, and steady and. just in a lot of resources at their disposal that they were marshaling in these ways. So once the Brown V Board decision comes down, is just a toxic storm, like the perfect set of ingredients for them to absolutely with that

Mandy:

Yep. So that's coming next in the next couple of chapters, and then we will be through this book and then hopefully we'll get to speak to Elizabeth McCray and we'll get some insight and. To ask for all the questions we're coming up with. So next week we will do chapter seven.

katy:

Yay. And if you are

Mandy:

Okay.

katy:

along and you're reading, well, if you're listening, obviously you're listening or you wouldn't even hear me say that. If you are reading along or as you're listening, if you have questions that you want us to ask the author of this book,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

send us a message. Let us know what it is you want us to ask her. We have a million questions, and I know ours range from. Serious and you know, scholarly to petty and gossipy. We are open to all of it by just

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

the knowledge in this book. Doesn't this feel like required reading right

Mandy:

especially right now, I'm like, we have talked about reading this book in previous years, and I'm actually really glad

katy:

I.

Mandy:

that we. Didn't get around to it until right now because it seems so pertinent to so many things that are going on, so,

katy:

It does, and it, it's actually, let's put that on the list of things to ask her. Just the degree to which she thinks book is being read or that it's

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

the audiences that she wanted it to reach because it is so salient and so. Helpful to understand where these things come from and to pull back the curtain and to name the people who did it. You were talking about the, the guy maybe his name,

Mandy:

Oh,

katy:

name.

Mandy:

Doss, Joshua Doss, that Instagram clip.

katy:

their names, say their names and

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

katy:

history. It's just like that being so important to remember the work these people did and how they built this infrastructure. Of oppression and kept it going like to, we, we have to know that, to know that it wasn't an accident, that it's not natural. It doesn't have to be this way. It wasn't even always this way. In certain regards, history isn't just an ever, we say this all the time, it's, it's not like, oh, things just get better over time. No, no,

Mandy:

Nope.

katy:

no, no. And you know, we need to. Remember and learn about how that happens. So

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

I just, I cannot stress how important this book is in this

Mandy:

Yep, for sure. All right, we will talk next week.

katy:

have a good

Mandy:

Okay, bye.

katy:

Bye.