Our Dirty Laundry

Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 7

• Mandy Griffin

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In this episode Mandy Griffin and Katty Swalwell explore the complex and troubling history of white women's resistance to school integration following the Brown v. Board of Education decision. The hosts discuss various themes, including the hateful and nefarious tactics employed by white women to maintain racial segregation, the differing reactions to the Supreme Court ruling, and the relentless commitment to white supremacy. They also highlight the use of religion, pseudoscience, and victimhood to justify segregation, drawing parallels to modern-day issues. The episode underscores the role of white women in perpetuating systemic racism and the ongoing struggle for racial justice in the educational system.

Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.

Mandy:

Hi.

katy:

Hi. Oh my God.

Mandy:

Okay, so we have said hi to each other now about seven times.

katy:

I'm sick of you. I don't know what is going on. We are experiencing some technical difficulties and we're trying to get on top of it, but good grief,

Mandy:

Yeah, well

katy:

here we are.

Mandy:

eighth time is a charm. This is just like life. It's

katy:

it is,

Mandy:

like down to the minute. I don't know about you. I feel like you

katy:

oh, you know me well enough to know that's not that way. Go at all. No.

Mandy:

packed that like I don't have time for inconveniences most of the

katy:

Oh, that's true. Right?

Mandy:

when something. Derails the way that I'm doing something, I get

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

angry. I think that's a combination of a DHD and perimenopause as well.'cause I'm just like, fuck this shit after one second of inconvenience.

katy:

Oh, I mean, add a dash of whiteness in there and like why isn't everything just easy and smooth? It should all just go according to my plans.

Mandy:

yeah. The

katy:

how life should be.

Mandy:

around me,

katy:

Yes, obviously no, I, I feel the same way and I, it is just like, it seems like more and more, we were laughing with friends this weekend about how everything has an app and all of the apps need passwords or like, have all these layers of things and then none of those things work. So like the basic task you were trying to accomplish was like 97,000 steps ago, and now you're on customer service for some like. Tangential task that was third or fourth tier to accomplishing the original task you needed to do. That's why I feel like just be, you know, returning to a time where there was a rotary dial with the phone and we called it a day.

Mandy:

On that same note of technical problems, I do know that when I've edited the last episode, maybe the one before that, that in some parts there's like a slight echo, which I find highly annoying. Hopefully none of our listeners have clocked it, but I'm sure they have. Apologies for that. We are trying to figure out why it's doing that and make it stop. Hopefully it won't this time, but we'll see.

katy:

Yeah, exactly. You did say, speaking of listeners listening, that we had someone write in and we don't, you know, unless people say that they want us to share their name, I guess we, we can just say someone wrote in and was excited about our mention of Rethinking Schools.

Mandy:

Yes,

katy:

Which is a.

Mandy:

is, yeah, supportive of that organization and works with their leadership. And asked us if we could shout out their upcoming Social Justice for Educators conference, which is being held this October 18th in Portland, Oregon. And she just mentions in light of so many. Conferences and organizations of that getting shut down and not being able

katy:

Right. I.

Mandy:

is one of the last existing organizations and conferences for progressive curricula initiatives. So if anyone is in this educator sphere and has not heard about this and is interested in it, just Google Rethinking schools and I think the Social Justice for Educators Conference and Portland, Oregon, and hopefully people who want to conjoin on

katy:

Yep, absolutely. Or even support remotely. You can kick them some money if you're in a position to do that. We can put the link to the conference in this show notes I've attended in the past and it's absolutely wonderful. It's an amazing conference. We're actually going to be interviewing the executive director of Rethinking Schools, which I'm so excited about, and we will be interviewing the author of the book we've been reading, which I am. Also so excited about, and that is Mothers of Massive Resistance. We are now on chapter eight, at least that's the chapter I read for today. Oh,

Mandy:

seven,

katy:

see what I mean? I, the very, oh my God, the very first, hello? We tried. I told Mandy that I couldn't find the headphones anywhere and was looking everywhere for them. Like even in where we keep the yogurts in the fridge and the silver wardrobe, like I retrace my steps that far into the bathroom, like where would I have left these headphones? And then ultimately realized, oh, they're plugged into my computer and ready for me to put on. So that is the kind of day we're having. Well, a preview of chapter eight is that it's fantastic and chilling. There's so much to talk about, so I can't wait. But yes, I've also read chapter seven. We're good. This is, this is what happens when I sit down to like work ahead. Then I get confused. I, I need things to be last minute for, I'd rather see it in my pants because that's how I've operated for so long. I'm uncomfortable being organized and prepared. It's disorienting. Things should not be where they're supposed to be or I won't be able to find them. Yeah, it all fits together. Oh my god.

Mandy:

for sure. Oh

katy:

Well here, this chapter. Yes. I'm ready to talk about chapter seven for sure.

Mandy:

Okay,

katy:

Let's do it.

Mandy:

It is titled Threats Within black Southerners 1954 to 1956. So it

katy:

Yep.

Mandy:

with the Brown V Board of Education Decision, which happened on Monday, May 17th, 1954, and this was a unanimous Supreme Court decision. I didn't know if I remembered that it was unanimous.

katy:

that kind of shocking? I don't know that I ever knew. Yeah, I know. I, I am really curious to travel down the rabbit hole of that court decision. But yeah, that, that is shocking. And yet. These women did not take that as the end of it. You know, like I think about so many of the Supreme Court cases, we were just talking about same sex marriage, and you would think like a Supreme Court decision would just be like, okay, that's decided. But it is not. So none. No victory is ever permanent. No loss is ever permanent. Unless you give up, I guess is the moral of the story. And I,

Mandy:

give up.

katy:

I wish, I wish they would give up. I wish they would give up. I wish they would get hobbies. I wish they would stop. They are relentless. If anything, this book is just an impressive level of commitment to horrible things.

Mandy:

Yeah, I know.

katy:

Ugh. It's just

Mandy:

it's

katy:

so, it is so upsetting.

Mandy:

most of the people who are listening, especially if you've been listening throughout the recordings about this book, know What Brown. The Board of Education was about, but just like very quickly,

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

Brought it was a class action suit that was brought on behalf of black children across several different school districts, and it basically challenged racial segregation and public schools as unconstitutional because separate but equal was inherently unequal. that is what the unanimous decision came back and said, yes, this is an unconstitutional, separate but equal does not guarantee equality. And so it led to the integration of public schools, but not in any sort of fast, orderly, or directed way whatsoever as we see through this. But

katy:

No.

Mandy:

the decision came out, of course all of our favorite ladies we've been learning about. Come out with all of their responses to it. And it was varied,

katy:

yeah,

Mandy:

in their

katy:

right.

Mandy:

and their approaches to things. Mary Dawson Kane buried the ruling oh, we're gonna ignore that this happened, and was like, all right, remain calm. Everything will be fine. We can defeat this too, but not giving it a whole lot of attention. Nell Battle Lewis, on the other hand, was in hysterics

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

the ruling as one of the worst things that has ever happened to the South.

katy:

Yeah, I thought, oh, I, there's a, a longer list I have, you know, that Yeah. It's, it's Vietnam and the brown decision to her are the worst things to happen to the south, which I, yeah. It's a, it's such a banana's take that you're like, I don't think you know where you are, ma'am,

Mandy:

Not at

katy:

but Okay.

Mandy:

No. And then Florence Ogden got her panties all in a bunch writing my friends. You will now know how it feels to live in a country that is not free.

katy:

Oh, the irony. Was it like, I don't think you could concoct a more ironic statement than that. Like it, oh my god. In a place where there were hundreds of years of chattel slavery. That's your take. Okay.

Mandy:

Yep. Yep.

katy:

Alright.

Mandy:

your freedom is gone.

katy:

Oh.

Mandy:

then Cornelia Dabney Tucker was. Questioning the experts who gave testimony, the validity of the evidence that was used to challenge the Supreme Court ruling. I

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

You were talking about how sometimes it seems like McCrae gets a little snarky in some of her writing,

katy:

in the best way. Yeah.

Mandy:

teeny little bits. She said she dug out her 1937 Supreme Court Security League stationary for a new crusade.

katy:

There are just these little flashes that I know we're gonna love talking with her for sure. Yes. Yeah, it, it is wild. I think one of the parts of the chapter that I really wanna get into is the distinction that McRay is making. I think she does such a good job of, of making this distinction without. Putting them in some sort of hierarchy, like, oh, this is the better version of things. Like they're both fucked up, which is the liberal white supremacists

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

and the other like, I don't even know what you like. Like naked white supremacists, I don't know what you call the other group, but it, it was basically like gradualist quote moderates, but the people who thought like, oh, a, a little bit of token desegregation is fine and actually benefits the south in all kinds of ways, and we don't actually have to fundamentally change anything. We can just like. Redecorate a little bit and keep everything else the same. And then the other group that was like, no, over my dead body will we change anything ever about any of this. And I really appreciate the way that Elizabeth Glassby were great is, is identifying these two strains and how they could sometimes be at odds with each other, but just revealing that they're ultimately about the same thing, you know? And when they work together. Or even when they don't work together, but they're both operating in full force that that's really powerful. And then they're kind of always winning in a way. Because if you identify like a defeat of Brown V Board as the way your side wins, then you didn't win. But if you expand what counts as victory to maintain a Jim Crow segregated south, then there's victories all over the place like and we see those. We're living in the victory of that.

Mandy:

victory

katy:

Alliance. Exactly. So I thought that was interesting.

Mandy:

Yeah. And then she brings up again that like the underlying threat that all of these people saw in this decision that it gave black southerners hope. Which I was like,

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

yeah. Again, how do these people look at themselves or justify what they're fighting for, when what they're angry about is part of humanity having any hope? I

katy:

Yeah. It's so, it is, it's so awful. Yeah. I think the other, the other strain or the other kind of thread through line in the book so far is just the, the constant erasure of black activism and of black. Agency. And in the book, again, we've said this before, that there's like a black, white binary that we know is not encompassing of the full diversity of people. And of course that race is a social construction, but of course, this is the, the history that we are inheriting. I mean, we have to make sense of it. So thinking about all the, the story that these white women were telling themselves and other people about where they lived in the south, is that. Black people in the South were happy and the, they liked the social order and that it's like outside rabble-rousers who are coming in and imposing and stirring it up and putting ideas into the heads of people that were otherwise totally content with how things were. And Brown V Board, in addition to a lot of other events in the fifties and then especially in the sixties, really make that a harder story to tell because you have people exercising their rights. You have people saying, well, this is the decision, so we're going to, to attend school. Where there are resources, you know, that that is the, the problem. And we've mentioned this before too, and she gets into it a little bit. McCrae gets into this a little bit, but just the ways that, just the absolute treachery of these white women in taking this decision and making sure that. E, either it would not be implemented at all, or that the way it was implemented would bend to their will, that it would become a way to continue the project of Jim Crow. So even just that like, I don't know, I'm trying to imagine what an alternative version of this decision could have been that would've cut them off, or that would've shut down a lot of the loopholes that they used. You know, it's not like. Like, let's imagine that the decision had said white supremacy is wrong and harmful and hurtful, and it's actually at the heart of the educational system, and so we're going to redesign public schools to counter white supremacy. That's not actually what Brownie board said, you know, as, as, as big of a deal as it was for sure. But that when I just, I cannot. Imagine how terrifying it must have been for black parents to send their kids to white schools. Like just

Mandy:

Oh

katy:

the, the menu of options just being so fraught and, and then the way that white women just vigilantly defended and sought to expand white supremacy reach even within a decision that was intended to chip away at white supremacy to a degree, you know. So thinking of like charter schools as one example, like all of these.

Mandy:

course, this is where like the charter school idea. Comes in, of course it's tied back to some sort of white supremacist racist stance. But yeah, that was one of their solutions for how they could get around having to send their white children to any schools with black children or charter schools that could keep state funding, also could. Limit who comes in? I don't, I guess I still don't like, I've always just been anti-charter schools, so I never even looked into them, but I don't understand how they get public funding, but don't operate as a public school.

katy:

They, well, they are technically a public school. It, they're, and what's, what makes it really hard? One of the professors I had in grad school who I, every year that I go on in my career, I can't believe how lucky it was to have her to be a student of hers as a professor, is Gloria Latson Billings. And she talked about this like, oh, it's really hard to talk about charter schools and mass because they're so wildly different. You know, to talk about like a. Like a giant umbrella of charter schools is hard, and there have been black parents who've actually. Leverage black charter schools for their children, you know, to set up like Afrocentric schools with that get public funding. So the like, one way to think about charter schools is as experimental schools that are public and that they're getting public money. And one way to think about charter schools is let's experiment and let's try some things here and then see what should. Be brought back to the whole system. And so because we're experimenting, we're going to be less strict about some of the same kinds of regulations or you know, we're going to allow. Like different leadership to be autonomous to a certain degree in order to allow that experimentation. That is a way that some people have used this idea of charter schools, but the historic foundation of charter schools is this, which is, it was a way to say, well, let's keep. Having publicly funded education so that we don't have to pay tuition or homeschool kids. Although, of course both of the private schools like shoot up in numbers in the south at this time, and homeschooling expands in this time as well. But the charter school is saying, let's, it's still gonna get public money, but we're going to have it be the like again, this kind of like, oh, we're, we're trying to do something different. And because of that we get to. Make different decisions about things it, but they're using it for super nefarious ends. It's fucked up. I mean, there's just no way around it. It drives me absolutely bonkers. By the way, in Iowa, they just had legislation passed that says that if a private school, which of course we have vouchers, which of course is funding like. Christian schools all over the place. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

Right. And they, this new law says if your school does not provide an extracurricular activity that your kid wants to do, the public school has to accept them to participate in that extracurricular, and the public school does not get money for that.

Mandy:

yeah,

katy:

I hate them,

Mandy:

of public schools. You get all the

katy:

but none of the, mm-hmm.

Mandy:

you

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

for providing any benefit at

katy:

No, and it, it even happens with special education. It, it's so, it, it is the thi it just like makes my bla brain bleed, my bla breed. That's how far I've gone. I can't even pronounce things. Yes, so.

Mandy:

my question then would be, and this is like going on a tangent, but like how to then. Utilize that in the opposite direction. These are things that are not going away. So then how do we as more progressive-minded people, take

katy:

right.

Mandy:

of that on our side, because this is what we're not good at. We are not good at

katy:

I know. I,

Mandy:

things.

katy:

what's hard is because the, I was thinking about this like. Even the, so the tactic of charter schools or the tactic of like bullying people, it's like part of the progressive project is to not have those things. So it feels wrong to use those things as tactics because that's not the vision of the world we're trying to build. But then of course that hamstrings you, you know, that really limits. Your options in some ways there are, I, not that I think charter schools are akin to like screaming at people or bullying them, you know, or doxing them. But I, I do know that there are some groups that have organized some charter schools or you know, people that are trying to use vouchers to start more progressive schools, but it's. It's kind of that old argument like, can you use the master's tools to build a better house? I'm paraphrasing a horrible, odd, like horribly, my apologies to Ud Lord. But it, I think that's the conundrum. Although like you could definitely make a case. I think like in the meantime, we should be doing what we can. I don't know. It's so complicated and on, on the top of page 1 68 that she's talking about how these white women. Would say like, oh, the black people really don't want integrated facilities. They just want equal facilities. And look, there were some black people who even signed petitions to uphold segregated schools. And I don't doubt that that's true actually. I, but I, my read on that is so different than their read. Like they don't wanna be around racist people. Like that's not the pro, you know what I mean? Like that's You're safer. Yes. So I, but of course, that's not how these women are interpreting that data with, they're like, see, everybody's just happier doing their own thing. It's so, it's just infuriating. So yes, all these women connecting all of these issues and, and using all kinds of different arguments against Brown also. Continually bringing up this concern that if we have integrated schools, then black kids and white kids are gonna fall in love and get married and have sex and have babies, and that that is what we're stopping.

Mandy:

themes of it, which, yeah, I underlined so many parts in that where I was just like, really? This is where we're taking this right away as education. She says that many letters from white women painted schools as hot houses for consensual sex and breeding grounds for marriage.

katy:

Yep. This was a quote from. An Arizona woman who wrote an article, what do you think in which she instructed her readers to quote, draw the bloodline and see that rigid segregation is practiced when it comes to marriage or social matters. We have no right to expose our helpless children to the danger of race mixing, which is bound to occur when we accept blacks as being our social equals. And really, I like it was in the fifties, in the sixties, even in the seventies, thinking about the court case, Levi versus Virginia that. Interracial marriage was illegal. 1954 it says in Virginia, interracial marriage was, was legal. Up until 1954. Montana and Oregon had just repealed prohibitions on interracial marriage. But 15 states outside the south still outlawed it. That again, like these are southern women that she's tracking and of the south regionally as. Of context is important to consider, but just I appreciate how McCray is not ever letting the north off the hook either. Like this, the, it's not like the north was just a place that had it all figured out and no white supremacy to see here. Not at all. And just think about how recent that is. That's our parents' lifetimes.

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

marriage was illegal.

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah. And it's

katy:

It's so recent.

Mandy:

the wild part about. This conclusion is that they like, they get so close to getting it, it's like they're like, they're just right there where they're like, oh, if you actually spend time these people and get to know them as human beings, then you might just realize that yes, they are equal. Like we're

katy:

Like

Mandy:

same.

katy:

we're all

Mandy:

we

katy:

it together.

Mandy:

yes, we're all in it together. We do all have. Things that we can have common ground on. We can find where we connect, we can like each other, and then fall in love with each other too. And instead of seeing that as something that, that's a reason you should promote this, that you should be good with

katy:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

by it. It's

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

see the same things

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

then they just. Take this dive off the edge of a cliff that you're like,

katy:

Right,

Mandy:

not where you should go with that, like.

katy:

here. Here's another quote from a, an Asheville North Carolina mother. We who have young children, do we want them to grow up and mix socially with Negroes? Maybe marry them. If you start them together in early grades, they will certainly marry, but here's what I think it like Yes, I hear you. It sounds like, oh, they almost get it, and then they, the way they conclude. Is so di it's like their conclusion is to be horrified and to be against that. And I, I think it's this idea that they are trying to preserve something. Like we have this heritage that we are trying to keep going and to keep pure and we don't want it to have anything get in the way of that. I, it's such a, like when I think about. I thi this is like, go with me here. And I haven't thought about exactly how I even wanna frame this, but I think about like for communities that have endured genocide, the importance of trying to preserve their cultural heritage and tradition in the aftermath of genocide. Like I can understand people's. Concerns about what happens to our language, what happens to our faith? What happened? Like, what happens to these things if, if no one is there to pass it down? And that when it's harder to pass it down, when you have multiple cultural traditions that you're juggling, like I actually can understand how difficult and painful that might be. In the aftermath of that, these women are not experiencing that. So let me just put like a giant fucking asterisk there. That is not what's happening to them, right? No.

Mandy:

collaborative community is

katy:

Like, I wish actually that we would get rid of a lot of the traditions that have been passed down to us. They're not healthy for anyone. They're not healthy for us, they're not healthy for other people. They're not healthy for the earth. Like

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

it's a death wish culture. Like that's, I don't want a lot of those practices to continue. But the idea like that I can actually understand. Like the predicament you find yourself in, in that situation. I also don't think it's a simple, like, so don't marry outside of a cultural culture because if you do, then it's all, all is lost. I don't think it's that simplistic. Like I think there are other ways forward and lots of families have shown lots of incredible ways that they have moved forward with that. So, you know, but, but I can be sympathetic to why that would be painful or difficult, but that is just not these women's situations. But they, but they think it is,

Mandy:

think

katy:

like, she talks about how it, as like UN is, is taking hold post World War II and. There's a lot of international work and cross national organizing that these women talk about themselves as the minority, like the global minority, which is factual, like that's actually mathematically, right? So they, they have, they, it, it is just so bananas to me when a oppressor groups adopt victim language as a strategy.

Mandy:

it's like this almost fetishization of like victimhood and persecution

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

in some of these groups. It like to me, takes me directly back to my roots as being raised. and

katy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mandy:

obsession that Mormon people have with thinking that they're persecuted and it's like one, nobody thinks about you that much. Get over it. And two. Like you're not, you are like the wealthiest, most powerful, like monetary wise religion in the world, in fact. So stop with this. Trying to make yourself seem like this downtrodden group of people. But people do get off on that kind of persecution. That's what it

katy:

Well, it is, I think because it opens up other options, like, like I just said, like if you are the victim of genocide there. There are, like I, there are positions you could take that if somebody else took them, I would be ho like contacts matters. I will just say that like contacts matters and so if you can try to frame yourself as someone who's in this position like it, it's almost like the bully complaining that the kid they're punching owes them money because their fist got bruised. Like that kid's face bruised my fist. It's like, you fucking hit them. That's your fault. Like, but it, it's a way to construct it. So now you are in a position where you can reasonably demand reparations because you have been wronged in some way when you were actually the person doing the wronging. And it's just, it's like a evil genius logic, you know? It drives me nuts.

Mandy:

a thing that I would love to go back and have this horse historical conversation with some of these women, this tactic that I use when I'm talking to people, when I don't agree with them. I also use this tactic when my daughter has like anxiety about things. Instead

katy:

Hmm,

Mandy:

of trying to counter their assertions,

katy:

Hmm?

Mandy:

I like to just say, and then what? So

katy:

right. Like, so this thing is gonna happen,

Mandy:

let's say

katy:

right?

Mandy:

It says, segregationists saw sex and marriage as the most obvious and unavoidable outcome of racial integration. Okay. And then

katy:

And then what? Mm-hmm. Right? And then what? Right.

Mandy:

say what you're afraid of. Out loud. Tell me what your conclusion is like. Let's go there and then see. What the options are at that point. Is it

katy:

Right,

Mandy:

be that horrible? What would you do if that was the

katy:

right.

Mandy:

like

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

make them, instead of going straight to the, you're wrong. That's dumb. You don't need to think that way. You're overreacting to things. It's just okay, let's overreact, let's carry this out. So like the utmost and see what the real

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

is. It would

katy:

You're just making the case again for therapy. Just like therapy as a tool of justice movements, like, you know, for sure.

Mandy:

Yeah. Yeah.

katy:

and, and really thinking about the different strategies that they have or the different connections they're making. Like of course it's this concern of relationships and even, governor of North Carolina, William Umstead thought that interracial quote, mating should carry the same punishment as armed robbery, manslaughter, or breaking and entering. And there were all sorts of petitions that were, were simultaneously panicked about black men raping white women and white and black people falling in love. So

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

like kind of extreme. Versions of that. Then there was science. Well, let's use science to prove that this is a terrible idea. So we've already talked about this report. Hmong girl Virginians. That was in the 1920s that people were drawing on and, and kind of extending. But that was again, trying to use social science data, which I'll put in quotes to show that everything's working great in the south and that it's actually the north where parents continuously teach racial hatred in order to counteract the influence of pro amalgamation teachers. So they were saying like. In places where there's integration, that's actually where white parents have to explicitly teach their kids to hate black kids, because otherwise they'll learn different messages. But like in the south, we don't have to teach that at home because we're just living. Segregated lives, so we're not actually teaching hate in the home the way that Northern White families do. So actually the north is, I, I was like, oh my God, I can't, I wrote mind, fuck in the comments there. Like, I don't understand this twisted logic. Yeah. So just, and then science, of course, that's like demonizing, criminalizing black people, black children trying to use. Science to do that. And then of course there's religious arguments Christianity getting weaponized here In all sorts of nefarious ways.

Mandy:

I liked the little bit of snarkiness again that came out. This is on page 1 71 where McCray says, in an exercise in historical distortion, amnesia, and imagination, they documented, highlighted, selected successes of black only schools. So they tried to say look, these black only schools are doing so well. That's why we should let them be like, again, just trying to highlight why. The separation was good, but I loved her wording there.

katy:

Yes, I did too. Yes. But again, it's like, again, using data, using information like, well look, black people sign these petitions, so they must be totally fine with things. It's the conclusion that's so wild. Like it, I mean, it even happens today, like, well look. Black kids are expelled or suspended at higher rates than other kids. It must mean that they don't like school. It must, it's like using a racist logic to interpret data that's actually revealing systemic racism. You know, like, no, it's the adults in the building and our racist society that are produ. Like, it's so frustrating to see someone draw such just rabid different conclusions from data that. Is showing racism at work and being, they can point to that data to say, see, my racist beliefs are accurate because science tells me So that is, and there was tons of examples of that, like when the now I'm on page 1 72, 1 73. The DAR is not coming out great in this essay. Winner Mandy. That the DAR and the UDC are sponsoring all sorts of like teacher workshops and they're, you know, trying to counteract this UN curriculum. They're also trying to. To track the, the impact on students and in particular trying to make the argument that white kids' education will be impaired. That was something. Do you remember reading about this teacher, pat Waters? I wanted to reach through history and punch her in the face

Mandy:

Yes. Oh, I

katy:

Waters. When her lone black second grade student stood in line for his hug on the last day of school, waters remembered being stunned that a black 7-year-old would expect a hug just like his white classmates.

Mandy:

Oh, I was so angry reading that part and the other, detail of that also made me so angry is that this was on the last day of school. This wasn't like the first day of school

katy:

Uhuh.

Mandy:

had the whole year to interact with this child and recognized that it. just a child coming for

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

This is the whole

katy:

Yep. Yep.

Mandy:

year through, so imagine how that child must have been treated

katy:

I can, it, it is horrifying. Yes. And just some of the arguments that these people are making, like, oh, we shouldn't have integrated schools, because then black kids obviously are gonna be held back because they won't be able to, you know, handle the academics. And so it's gonna crowd, it's gonna create crowding and all of these grades, or, oh, now we're going to have to hire. Some black teachers, but they haven't, they've been teaching these substandard students for so long, like they're not gonna be good teachers, so we shouldn't hire them. It's just, again, like the, the way that the ar, the arguments that they're making. Then the way that the. When districts actually did follow through with the Supreme Court ruling with Brown, it, it's just so infuriating that this is the woman who's teaching those kids or this, these are the logics of the people running those districts to like, well, what's our plan for all the black kids that are gonna have to be held back and like, what's our, you know, what are we gonna do with all these teachers who don't know how to teach? I guess we won't hire them. You know, it's just. So, so, so, so frustrating.

Mandy:

Yeah. Back to your point about the like absurd use of Christianity and using God to

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

this. The part where she talks about, there's a couple of different people who use the example of different species of birds and

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

this is the same as different races of humans, that God made the birds of the air, but he didn't make them all alike. They do not mix yet. They all fly in the same air. And Florence Ogden was one who said the. Noted the divine sanction of racial segregation, comparing it to the segregation of species of birds. And she said to do away with it would be breaking God's law,

katy:

it really just kind of throwing any argument at the wall to see what will stick. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

But then again, like they talked to you about this religious conference.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

a 1956 religious emphasis week at the University of Mississippi, and this black reverend had been. Invited to speak, but Florence heard about this and could not let it be. So she had a petition, she called state newspapers. She wrote to the chancellor and had them cancel his appearance, then the rest of the speakers to their credit at this conference then all declined to participate in it because they're like, okay, if you're not gonna let him speak, we're not gonna speak.

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

for white mississippians, adherence to segregation, trumped Christian service, devotion, and education. And I like highlighted,

katy:

Yeah.

Mandy:

starred that part as yes. The, again, just like Christian nationalism, ignoring every tenant of actual Christianity and allowing your politics to trump any sort of lesson. You should be learning through Christianity and enacting in your lives what was happening back in the 1950s as well,

katy:

Yep. Yeah.

Mandy:

with Christianity. Really?

katy:

Yes. And linking that to anti-communism and linking that to antisemitism and linking that to like just this being the moment where so much is getting. Connected, which we've talked about in previous chapters. And part of that is the, there's so many code words. I know you're very quick to catch, like you hate states rights and the, you know, these words that are used as cover for things. And one of them is. Constitutional government, like the Constitution. This is, this Supreme Court case was against the Constitution, and this is when Ogden gets on the mic. Metaphorically speaking, I call out white Southerners to speak up about this federal betrayal and this abuse of the Constitution, and to not do it through the clan and to not do it through like hidden. Violent ways. Like, you don't have to do that because this, we should be able to stand loud and proud about this. So she says she warns against that kind of like. Hiding, slipping up a dark alley or wearing a hood, and instead encourage white Southerners to courageously and openly endorse a way of life that has existed from the day of the inception of the United States. And then that's where these groups called the Citizens Councils get started, which is basically like the clan without the hood. Like the same politics for sure. And this was another part where McRay, I, I just like really appreciate her wordsmithery here that she's talking about Nell Lewis and that in North Carolina, she was worried that white people would be, become, would, would just be so apathetic and resigned that they wouldn't really mount a resistance to the. Board the Brown V Board decision, and McRay says her concerns seemed misplaced and that actually like lots of white women rise up and that they aren't gonna pay taxes. And that one woman, this is Mrs. Preston Andrews our favorite when people sign their names, Mrs. Husband's name. She suggested the taxes she paid were for our own children, not all the children in the state, which of course is the voucher logic for sure. Until the Negroes can pay their own way, they have no right to say what will be done with our money, which infuriated me our money, like, Fuck you, and goes on. To just make all the same argu, like all of these arguments that we've just been listing. It is an outrage that we have to support them, meaning public schools, and then have to enter our children in private schools bearing this additional expense. I mean, she is like making the case in the 1950s for vouchers. Predicted race rights and claimed you can't get Negroes to work at all. Finally, she accused integrationists of being communist packed with numerous reasons to oppose brown. Mrs. Andrews letter was unusual only in its ability to cram so many reasons on one neatly typed page

Mandy:

Love that.

katy:

needed to.

Mandy:

great. So great. Yeah. I mean they just tied together all of those things. It is like amazing how they just are throwing everything at the wall, hoping that any of it sticks, like communism, anti intellectualism, religion, sex marriage fears like. Pick an argument, any argument they can turn it into an argument for white supremacy, basically. The interesting thing I thought about those citizens councils though, is that even though women were so involved in helping organize all of them, they were not allowed to join them early

katy:

Right, right.

Mandy:

No women, like we need you to get your men, your husbands to join and to maybe take our minutes and bring some refreshments, but you're not actually invited. And these women were like, yes, please. What kind of

katy:

That's,

Mandy:

sir?

katy:

but I think that's the, that is, it's like women have their power and this, we'll, we'll get into this more in chapter eight since I've read ahead and I know what's coming. Just this belief, like women are powerful, but in their sphere. And like, we'll, we have, it's, it is pro segregation. It's like we have our sphere of influence. You have your sphere of influence, and we will maximize ours. Get your shit together and yours so that we can run this town. You know, that's, that. It actually isn't lodge, it's, it, it, on the surface it seems like it doesn't make sense, but it actually tracks like in this sense, they are internally cohesive. I, I was thinking too. Ogden being worried that white women wouldn't care enough. And then, you know, being pleasantly surprised. I'm sure that all these people came to rally around these issues, but I, I'm worried about white women's apathy like That is a concern, and I think we're probably very justified in being worried about this. Like it's way easier to rally white women to defend white supremacy than it is to get white women to care enough to take action in some kind of meaningful way. About anti-racism or justice,

Mandy:

Yep.

katy:

in mass, like this, obviously there are exceptional individuals, but in mass my money would be on women, white women organizing to support white supremacy every time,

Mandy:

I

katy:

you know,

Mandy:

they've done it since the

katy:

they, they a very strong track record for sure. What, what was the quote that you sent me about? White women Are the men of women. What was that? Is that right?

Mandy:

that's it. Yeah. White men, white women are the men of women. That was a tweet that I saw that somebody was like I heard this. And they can't stop thinking about it. And it's just so accurate that it's terrifying. And

katy:

Well, and this is, yeah, it doesn't go away. And the, the citizens councils too, just the way that they were trying to make white supremacy. Really deliberate about how to appeal to people who that like explicit white supremacist language wouldn't resonate with. But to build this bigger conservative coalition across the north where again, I'm like, you were probably underestimating how racist people in the north where you probably could have said a lot more and just been fine, but that. This using the constitution, talking about communism, using these other words to get people on board and to come into the fold. Lots, lots of specific strategies there. And thinking about like the overreach of the federal government and all this code language that is helping them get support from across the United States.

Mandy:

like you said, it's like the Klan without a hood, and it was so, so successful that McCrae notes in 1964 that there were still less than 1% of black

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

in desegregated schools in North Carolina 10 years later and. said while state officials touted the state's lack of racial violence, a white Greensboro attorney summed up North Carolina's racial politics. We're just like Georgia and Alabama, except we do it in a tuxedo and they wear suspenders. So it's

katy:

I mean, the classism is so gross too. I mean, it's just like there's, every ism is gonna be involved if you think otherwise you're gonna wait a long time. But the, all of this, for 1% of students,

Mandy:

Yeah.

katy:

that's what's just horrifying. Right.

Mandy:

talking about some of this with my dad the other week when we were out on a walk together and like you said, this is our parents. This is when they grew up. He graduated from high school in the late sixties and

katy:

Right.

Mandy:

had moved for his senior year. His dad had gone to teach in Texas, and so he actually

katy:

Hmm. I.

Mandy:

senior year at a Texas school. it did not integrate until the year after my dad graduated from high school. Like he went to an

katy:

It's all so recent. Yes. It's all so recent. I mean, again, you'll see why I am excited to talk about chapter eight when you read it, but the, the takeaway I had that I really wanna talk with Elizabeth. Gillespie McGray about is just the fact that, and I'm sure other people have said this, it just feels like reading this like, oh, we actually have been in a civil war for 150 years. But some people just didn't know That a war was happening and other people very clearly did, and were. Absolutely engaged in politics in a, in a like war mindset. So this strategy, all of, like, they were working with the John Birch Society. They were trying to get judges appointed. They were setting up state sovereignty commissions, which was a secret intelligence force that targeted civil rights activists and their supporters. They are using all sorts of intimidation tactics.

Mandy:

intimidating black families, like sending letters

katy:

Oh my God.

Mandy:

the families of black children that had been admitted to white schools. Suggesting that they reconsider their decision. I can only imagine what kind of suggestions those were and the fear and intimidation that was behind

katy:

Oh my God. Terrifying. There was a woman that GRA mentioned Sarah Patton Boyle, who they also pile on like any white people, especially in the south, who indicated any level of support for integration, let alone like anti-racism. They went after those people really fiercely too, to, to teach them a lesson. And so Sarah Patton Boyle is from Charlottesville, Virginia, and as far as I understand it is, is trying to. Advocate for integration and racial equality as a southerner and saying, I think a lot more southerners actually want this, that these people are the minority. Like they're loud, but they're not, they don't represent everyone. And then she basically comes to the conclusion like, I was wrong. Like

Mandy:

Whoops.

katy:

is, yeah, I don't know.

Mandy:

So much hate mail after publishing that that article in the Saturday evening post, and then Nell Lewis went after her. And she got so much hate mail after that it says it sent her into a spiritual crisis and shook her belief in any sort of a silent south, willing to accept school integration. It's just oh, just kidding.

katy:

But I, but think about how many white women after 2016 were, I mean, this is like the Women's March to some degree. Like, oh, this can't be right. Like this can't be what is actually happening. And you had brought this up the other day about, an activist who's, who's saying like, no, don't, this election wasn't stolen. People actually want this. And you have to confront that reality and work with that reality. And it's that, it's just as delusional as it seems to support white supremacy. Don't get delusional in the way that you think. A lot of people don't want it. Like that's not gonna help Delusion does not help anybody when we're trying to build a more just loving and sustainable world. Right? Like the delusion that. This is new or the delusion that if you just, you know, if you just confront people with facts, then they'll be convinced that their racism is wrong, like it's delusion is not helpful. You know, wishful thinking is not helpful.

Mandy:

no thinking that white women are gonna all of a sudden have an awakening. And come around when the most horrific things happen. The last, one of the last examples in this chapter that was just absolutely sickening, brings up the story of Emmett Till, who

katy:

Oh right.

Mandy:

murdered, tortured and murdered in 1955. And the reaction of these women that we've been learning about to his murder was. Disgusting. I mean, I

katy:

I mean,

Mandy:

of the word to describe,

katy:

no, there isn't a word no, but instructive, like at whatever word we haven't invented yet to describe how horrible it is. But, but that was one of these moments where. It. It's like they are confronted with a really horrific reality. Like, okay, you say you're wanting to support children and you give all these arguments and whatever, and even that this is what's best for black kids. Or like you, you know, all of the things. And then this horrific things happens and there are pictures that his mother chooses intentionally to publish and pictures of the open casket so that everyone in the entire world can see what happened to her sign. Like the incredible. Strength of that woman. I like what? That's Words as well. And then these white women that we've been learning about are having to, to try to spin it in some way. And I thought of so many times, Megan, Kelly, whoever these people are that have to take something that is objectively horrific

Mandy:

Carolyn

katy:

spin it.

Mandy:

conference that she gives and

katy:

Caroline Lovet.

Mandy:

comes

katy:

Yes.

Mandy:

make.

katy:

And, and spin it to make it work for their, what they're advocating for. So here's Elizabeth McRay faced with defending the brutal murder of a black child. I mean, just, just that. Phrase right there. Some female segregationists turned to conspiracy theories, denying the body was tills. Again, this is just like the playbook that we see over and over again. Like, okay, well what's we're going to say? Yes, that would be awful if it happened, but it didn't happen. It's like the shooting in Connecticut of elementary school kids like Sandy Hook conspiracy theorist. Like, yes, that would be awful, but that didn't actually happen. That's one way to react to it, or it was.

Mandy:

among others, referred to the murder as an alleged

katy:

It.

Mandy:

said it looks like an NAACP conspiracy,

katy:

and then they had no comment. When Look Magazine ran the confessions of the white men who murdered till, well, that's convenient for them to not have any comment. Her nonchalant reaction to the till murder was a long way from her fiery condemnation of the mistreatment of black prisoners shop share. In Barnes in the 1930s, one North Carolina woman even applauded the events in Mississippi. The boy in Mississippi was no child. She wrote, he knew how to insult a woman. Oh. Oh, so this Elizabeth Gillespie murder goes on to say, unable to shape the till murder into an appropriate story for white supremacy. Ogden tried to silence any censure offered by the South's own white citizens making a condemnation of the till murder town tantamount to heresy in white Mississippi. Just it's it, there really isn't like a good word to describe. And this is why if you say to me that you are doing X, Y, or Z to support children or to save the kids or whatever, it's such absolute garbage. Like that's what these women are arguing for all the time. And then they take a brutal murder of a child and somehow spin it into why we shouldn't care about that. Why it's actually not a problem, why it's actually a good thing that happened that I then. Anything else you say I call bullshit. You know, it's just so obvious that, that all the code language in the world cannot cover for you when this is how you act in these moments and it's, we see it all the time today.

Mandy:

Yep. The only highlight to this chapter is that it does bring about the death of Nella Battle Lewis. So an evening in late November of 1956, she had a heart attack and died, and I was like, thank God. This woman did so much damage, thank God she passed away. Like what else could she have done during this time? Just like the senator who died on the Senate floor arguing for the tariff amendment that we

katy:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

the tariff amendment. What was it called? The Bricker amendment? Yeah, the turns of history, like how things could go. This is one of those that it was just like. A breath of relief as finally she's gone,

katy:

But this just, her legacy is so lasting,

Mandy:

yeah.

katy:

No. This, in the, the same month that she died, a columnist named Tom Ridge for the Jackson Clearing Ledger was talking about why the pro integration forces have their timeline had gone haywire. He says is because the intelligent, independent women in the South are not swallowing propaganda as readily as was hoped. And I, this is so many times where. What they say is both so wrong and. True. Like this was a moment where I thought that like he, yes, like white women will cling to white supremacy. Like do not doubt their ability to cling to that. Like that. That is a mistake of the people who are trying to. Advocate for something is to underestimate how rapidly they are gonna cling to white supremacy. I don't like the man who wrote this, and I don't like why he's saying it is like applauding them, you know? But it is pointing to. A, a true thing in the next chapter is something that comes up is some of these women kind of chuckling to themselves, like, just wait till this comes to the north and then we'll see like how much these white women who c who are criticizing us. Like, just wait till it gets to them and then we'll see. And they're, they're saying it in such a, like an evil, cynical way, but I was like, they're not wrong. That's actually right. Like that is what's gonna happen. And at least I like, I'm not trying to defend these women in any way, shape or form. Just we can, I don't think we're dismissing them. Like I, I want to take them very seriously because they're doing so much damage and they are actually more accurate. They have better reads on how deep this stuff goes than a lot of the people. Who might have been more idealistic even in, in the South, whether they were in the south or in the north. They, it, it seems to me, reading this chapter that they, for as much as they were worried about apathy, that they really had their pulse on what white women would actually show up for and do, and how, how much they could count on them to defend white supremacy.

Mandy:

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that we have tried to really highlight in all of the seasons and all of the stories that we have told is that you cannot underestimate the shittiness of white women. Yeah.

katy:

If there is one, one through line in this entire podcast, that's a good one for sure. I mean, not good. It's terribly depressing, but an important thing to keep in mind,

Mandy:

Very important. Okay, so

katy:

I.

Mandy:

next chapter is actually the last chapter. Chapter in the book and then the conclusion. So

katy:

Yep.

Mandy:

wrap things up and then we will soon have our interview with the author and I'm really excited about all of that.

katy:

So, so excited. Yep. For sure. Well, thanks for listening. Thanks for getting on this call with me 19 different times before we made it Stick as the recording. Thanks. And as always, let us know comments, questions, and please subscribe. Please share. Please. Like that, that puts the podcast up in people's algorithms so that they're able to know that it's there because even though we would do this by ourselves with each other. We, we do believe that this information is useful and more people need to know.

Mandy:

Yeah, very important. we'll talk to you next week.

katy:

Bye.