Our Dirty Laundry
Our Dirty Laundry
Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 8
In this podcast episode, Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell discuss Chapter 8 of Elizabeth Gillespie McRae's book 'Mothers of Massive Resistance.' They reflect on the ruthless persistence of white supremacist tactics used by women in the mid-20th century to counter desegregation and civil rights movements. The chapter covers a range of topics, including the Little Rock Nine integration crisis, the role of media in these events, the spread of private and charter schools, essay contests promoting racist ideologies, and the alarming interconnection between grassroots conservatism and white supremacy. Mandy and Katy also delve into the strategic co-optation of religious and patriotic narratives and the ongoing implications of these historical currents in today's sociopolitical climate. They highlight the need for a clear, anti-racist vision to counter these persisting ideologies.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin. And I'm Katie Swalwell, and welcome to our Dirty Laundry, stories of white ladies making a mess of things and how we need to clean up our act.
katy:Hi. We're always pleasantly surprised when the technology works. Welcome. Welcome back to anybody who's been listening forever or just listening to us. Work through the chapters of Mothers of Massive Resistance by Elizabeth Gillespie. McGray. We're in chapter seven already.
Mandy:Eight,
katy:God damnit. Yeah, you're right. Chapter eight. God, seriously. That is what I meant. That's the kind of day it's gonna be. Oh, mama.
Mandy:talking when we jumped on about our utter exhaustion and trying to figure out if something was wrong or if this is just life now.
katy:No, it part of it's just life now and we're just getting older and that's just how it's gonna be. That's just the word chrome phase. That's just chrome phase. We have to embrace it.
Mandy:Oh gosh. All right. Well.
katy:cheese brain and achy joints, and that's our future. I told my husband this morning that I really like, I could do the splits when I was younger. That's like the only physical feat I had, and I was like, I'm gonna do'em again. I'm gonna do it again once more in my life. And so I'm trying to stretch. It's like my goal for myself, it's probably not gonna happen, but the stretching that I have to do to try to do it is good for me. You know?
Mandy:Do you remember, so that just reminded me, the splits. So I assume you're talking like leg forward, leg back, split
katy:Oh yeah. I've never been able to do side splits.
Mandy:out
katy:Yeah.
Mandy:Do you remember what they used to call those When we
katy:Oh yeah. Don't we? It's so offensive we can't even say it.
Mandy:I don't Where did that come from?
katy:I don't know
Mandy:Everyone
katy:would.
Mandy:range knows what we mean and
katy:No.
Mandy:can't imagine,'cause I took gymnastics very briefly. As a young child, and that's just legitimately what they called them like, no problem. No
katy:there's a lot, a lot of stuff I think about here. We've been rewatching movies from the, from our childhood with our kids. Like, honey I Shrunk the kids, or what, you know,
Mandy:Yeah.
katy:needing to mix it up and they're getting a little older so they can watch different kinds of things. But we are honestly regularly horrified by what the jokes are and it's like, what, what is happening? I, or, and I just didn't remember it, or, you know, didn't track or what. It's like pretty darn shocking. Like abs. The exception is to find a movie from our childhood that doesn't have really offensive jokes and plot lines.
Mandy:You know the
katy:It's wild.
Mandy:one of my favorite
katy:Oh yeah. Oh, for sure. Yes, yes.
Mandy:and I still love it, and I laugh hysterically at the most ridiculous part. the line where he says like, time this happens, there are consequences. Where I come from, there are consequences when a woman lies
katy:Oh yeah.
Mandy:like the part
katy:It's like,
Mandy:insinuating he's gonna slap her when she talks I'm like, what?
katy:honestly, that doesn't even track like the, like compared to other things like, okay, Hocus pocus. Did you ever watch that movie?
Mandy:yeah, yeah.
katy:It's like you know, fair, fairly beloved movie. So Thea loves like witches and like, you know, she's really into like. Mysterious kind of scary sorts of things. She's like a little proto. Emo. Goth girl. Okay. So we watch Hocus Pocus, which I had never seen, but it's, I don't know, I felt like, oh, that's kind of a beloved movie. People celebrated the anniversary of it, whatever. There were sequels, the plot revolves around the fact that one of the lead characters is a virgin and they keep referencing virgins and theo's like, what's a virgin? And it was like, oh my God, this is a movie for kids. This is so weird.
Mandy:Yeah, it's pretty amazing when you go back and watch all of those.
katy:And there's just a lot of like fat jokes, like girls are stupid jokes. I don't know. It's so. Depressing, but then maybe we should watch that and think like, oh, wow, this is, we're, we're in a better place media wise. Although, you know, all the comics that are like, we can't even make jokes anymore. I'm like, these jokes aren't funny. You know, I don't want them to come back. That's, I'm not like lamenting it at all. It's just like, whoa, wow. We've, we've come a long way. Anyway,
Mandy:yeah.
katy:how did we even get to talk about that?
Mandy:chapter
katy:Okay, good, good segue,
Mandy:reminds me of all the steps backwards that we are taking. I think
katy:I know
Mandy:we've talked about in most of the reading is how applicable this is how
katy:to today.
Mandy:It's like a puzzle piece, like putting together. And connecting the dots of all of the things, all the euphemisms for like
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:where we're at right now. And this chapter just continued to do that. It was like the OMG everywhere and this
katy:Yes.
Mandy:about. And I did one petty detective part that I cannot wait to get to. Your jaw's gonna drop. So,
katy:Oh, I can't wait. I wonder. I did a little petty detective thing too, but I wonder if it's even about the same thing. We'll, see, I, I am not your level of expert in petty detective ness. I aspire to it. But let's start. It's titled, white Women, white Youth, and the Hope of the Nation.
Mandy:ugh.
katy:do you wanna start? Where do you wanna jump in?
Mandy:I mean, let's just start right here at the beginning where it talks about. So
katy:I.
Mandy:chapter was about Brown versus board of education and how that passed. And then. You know, immediately all schools were desegregated and everything went great,
katy:Yeah. Right? Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Mandy:so,
katy:it is, it is interesting to think about an alternative reality where things went a completely different way. It, it's like, honestly, I think it is useful to imagine that even though it's heartbreaking, it is important to imagine other ways the world can be and how else things could have gone because that is real. Like that. That's, and that helps us keep imagining better possibilities in the future, but definitely not how it went. So here of one part, my first exclamation mark, I have many dozen exclamation marks in the margins of this chapter, but one, the first one is how the South Carolina. The founding of private schools outpaced the state's substantial pre-ground trend and a public referendum overwhelmingly approved, deleting from the state's constitution, the provision to provide public education. This is one of those moments where I just like the common sense myth, honestly, that I believe and fall prey to so often is that everybody wants democracy. Everybody understands democracy to mean the same thing, and that everybody understands public education to be crucial to a healthy democracy. Like, I just think like, oh yeah, that's common sense. It's not like, it's not common sense. It's not something, it's not, there's not consensus around that, you know?
Mandy:us anything. No, not at
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:mean,
katy:Mm.
Mandy:that they were trying to push back against this decision. They did not just give right into it. So they came up with this. Yeah, the proliferation of private schools. There was also, every southern state says passed a pupil placement act that
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:districts to establish subjective criteria such as morals, conduct, health and personal standards in order to accept patients or patients. You can tell where my brain is,
katy:Yeah. Yeah.
Mandy:into schools. So it's like it, even though black children were supposed to be able to integrate to schools, now they had to jump all these other hoop. It's like the the voting thing. You know,
katy:Yes.
Mandy:pass this literary test. You have to be able to pay this pill tax. You have to be able to do this. They're putting up the same barriers in order for black parents to put their kids into schools. And again, I was just like, oh, these parents like. The courage that they had to have to
katy:Oh my God.
Mandy:is,
katy:my God. And the kids, you know, like their, their youngest children had adults screaming at them and threatening them, you know, kindergartners, which my, my son's going to kindergarten. And you think about the, the terror of dropping your kid off at school or having them go to school. Like it's already overwhelming to be a parent and have your kid start kindergarten. You're worried about, like, in the best of circumstances, you're worried about them, let alone. Like a super violent, terrifying white supremacist situation. The other piece I wanted to just note that it's not just private schools that exploded at this time, but charter schools, I know we've been talking about that, but just the, the very explicit connection between charter schools private schools and eugenics, and that, that there's this, the eugenics supporter, Ivy Lewis and biology professor was hired by the Charlottesville Educational Foundation to basically set up these private schools. So it, it's not every charter or every private school, obviously, but that that is part of the history of those types of schools and not just in the South, but especially in the south. So I, I just wanna leave that out there at the beginning.
Mandy:Yeah, for sure. I also tried to write all these emoji faces in the margins of my book because I just need to be able to press like the vomit button sometimes. But my, my drawings are not anyone looking at this would be like, what is that scribble she did over there? But I loved at the bottom of the first page of the chapter where they talk about one woman whose name is only recorded in history as Mrs. Charles Reynolds.
katy:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mandy:thing again her actual name,
katy:it is gone. Yep,
Mandy:anywhere.
katy:yep,
Mandy:there.
katy:yep.
Mandy:So another, and another theme that has come up many times is there was this tension between still these outright segregationists and then what they called like the moderate conservative
katy:heavy quotes. Yes. Like just the, what counted as moderate was if you rejected. Extra legal violence, and you did believe in public education. Those are such low bars to count as moderate, but that also rings true today. Like how far right we've come. So what seems like it's in the middle is actually still pretty far, right? Yes. Yes.
Mandy:Yes. And it just reminded me of that James Baldman quote that we talk about all the time about white moderates.
katy:Mm,
Mandy:says like, in many ways the moderate position contributed to sustaining a Jim Croation and I. Exclamation march that, because it's just, it's the same thing, like this position that progressive pol quote unquote progressive politicians get themselves into of like, we
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:this middle ground. We've gotta appeal to everybody. It's like, no, this supports the status quo. Moderation does not fucking work. When are we going to get this? Like,
katy:I, I agree.
Mandy:I
katy:Yeah. It's so frustrating. Even though you know, the, I think the period of time that we're talking about here really post Brown V boards, so like late fifties into the sixties and beyond that, that point is, is crucial because you have some major legislation like MC Gray talks about that the white southern women that were advocating for all of this for decades really were forced to switch up their tactics at this time because you do have post World War ii intensified black grassroots activism and amplified federal commitment to civil rights, this liberal internationalist order, and even some white southern moderates or like white southern people open to some of these things. So you do have like a shifting political landscape that they're having to contend with. That they did contend with, I think we would argue very successfully that when we look at like the Civil Rights Act of 1957, and the so in, in some ways, like, oh, great, you know, that created a civil rights division of the Justice Department, uh, was investigating voter suppression. But you have officials that supported that Civil Rights Act trying to calm segregationists down by, by saying to them like, don't worry. This doesn't have anything to do with schools like this. Just this, this is only about voting. It's like, okay, well first of all, if those aren't just connect A, but b, that's gross to be like, don't worry, you can still be racist everywhere else. We're just looking at like that's, I think that's the part of what's frustrating is even these successes are so tempered or the white people advocating Yes. Appease. Yes. And when we, when does appeasement with fascist work. It doesn't.
Mandy:finding out
katy:No, I don't, I don't like it.
Mandy:at Yeah,
katy:it does, but it does force people like it did. I wanna acknowledge that all of this did force some shifts, and at least there's this one line that I, I thought was interesting. This is top of page 180 7, that despite their best efforts, segregationists could still blame black grassroots mobilization on outsiders. They just could no longer be in it. So maybe they still are trying some of the same narratives, but they, it, it, they're just emptier and emptier. And the fact that their lies is just more and more obvious, the degree to which that actually matters. I don't know. But it's, it's, you know, there is some kind of pulling back of the curtain at this time and just kind of making people. Like the, you know, revealing what the, the roots are. But this is also the era, and this is what we talked about in the last couple chapters of white women, especially being really strategic at coding their language so that people, they could expand their tent and get people behind them who wouldn't, who wouldn't otherwise have been down with super, super explicitly white supremacist language.
Mandy:Yeah, I loved that line too. Also highlighted in my book and it seemed to me like just part of an ongoing in this chapter who McCray just makes those teeny little digs with
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:literary
katy:I love them. Mm-hmm.
Mandy:absolutely loved her. Like she just kind of unleashes in this last chapter with of
katy:Yep.
Mandy:calling out
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:that's happening here. But you mentioned yes, that the Civil Rights Act like some of the argument was this isn't gonna affect anything but voting. But then it talks about how that argument lost all of its credence just a few weeks later. When The Little Rock Nine
katy:Yeah,
Mandy:to integrate Central High School in 1957. This was so horrific. I mean, I know we've learned about this. I remember the Little
katy:this is one of the most famous stories. Yeah. Yeah.
Mandy:Yeah. So this is in Little Rock, Arkansas, obviously, and this is when nine children were integrating Central High School where they had like the National Guard first called out to like keep them from being able to go in. But then that was challenged by the federal government and they were ordered to help them get into the school. What I didn't remember is it says that on September 23rd, 1957, mobs of screaming, angry white men, women and children threaten the black teenagers as they entered the high school. Then it says their day was short-lived as threats of lynching. Another violence led the local police to sneak them out of the high school, so they didn't even stay.
katy:No, it, it is just so wild. And just a point of clarification here, especially in a moment where we have the president sending federal troops into US cities, right.
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:it was the governor who had the National Guard preventing them, and then Eisenhower overrode that and sent in the hundred and first Airborne Division. So it just I actually just wrote our senators asking to explain why they, under what criteria they think it's okay for the. President sent in federal troops, and I actually cited this, you know, work this history to say, here's when I think it's okay. And, and it, this does not qualify, you know, what, what the president is currently doing in no way, shape or form is justified. And I, I wanna hear your, like, how you explained it. Of course, one of the reports back was absolute garbage. And so I wrote back a much more specific email about why it's absolute garbage. We'll see if I hear back. But yeah, I think the, the fact that troops had to be involved and I think that actually. So there's a few parts of this chapter that I think are, are really important to highlight. And one is that this is a moment when the narrative of being occupied
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:starts to take over. So, white people, white women, especially one of the, the kind of new tactics is to present themselves as the victims. And you talked earlier about presenting themselves as the minority that actually needed protection and supporting minority rights as long as it meant for white people. And then this idea that that they were, there were an occupied state. And so at one point even this is a woman, Florence Stiller's Ogden, who had a column in the Clarion Ledger, and she was talking about the tyrannical methods of the reconstruction era and of the dictatorships of Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin, which are being used today in Arkansas, meaning the federal government. Sending troops to defend black children, trying to integrate and protecting them from white people threatening to lynch them. That that, the irony, I don't even know if that's the right way to describe it, is so bananas to say like, we are under the dictatorship of Hitler. It, it like, makes your brain hurt. It's just so, it's so wild to think no, no, no, no, no. Hitler learned from us how to commit genocide and cultural genocide and eugenics. And so then you using that to try to gain sympathy for your own eugenics beliefs and systems and violence is in it's, it's in, it's, I know we keep saying this is infuriating.
Mandy:It's,
katy:I don't understand how people say these things with a straight face.
Mandy:yeah, it doesn't make, except for that, it's just the obliviousness. It's not the obliviousness. The entitlement
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:I think is also another major theme here. I actually highlighted this part in the middle of page 180 9 is talking about another
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:these were the more moderate women who were trying to keep public schools open
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:like giving into some of this anti segregationist stuff. But she makes the comment that, that this group was filled with middle class white women who expected to be heard and to win.
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:wrote like in the margin, this should be like
katy:I
Mandy:white woman mantra.
katy:mean, it is,
Mandy:just this.
katy:yeah, like a.
Mandy:gonna listen to us and you're gonna do what we say and there's no argument against us.
katy:No, I think that combination of class and gender and race is really important and something that, that gets highlighted. So yes, you have this like victim nar narrative that absolutely has carried on today. And so this is painting white Southerners as victims of an overreaching federal government and military, this behemoth federal government unresponsive to the wishes of its white citizens. So it's absolutely a critique of federal overreach because it's infringing on white supremacy. I mean, that's, that's it. You know, there's that narrative that that's a big tent narrative, but then you have this more specific class and gender group within that. And so McRay is talking here again about Central high School and that there's this mother's league that starts up, which is a group of working class women. And they, they, they're only cool with threatening physical violence, like yelling at verbal harassment. They, they didn't. You know, it was, it's so, it's just like these distinctions are so bonkers. But, um, MC Grace says the Mother's League took their politics to the streets loudly. Some said hysterically and with much media attention, they produce flyers, educating voters on school board elections, work to unseat moderate school board members and circulated petitions. They passed on the license tag numbers of members of the group that was trying to protect kids. Did they pass these on to the Arkansas State Police, who were friendly to the segregationist cause they worked with little monetary support without the political capital of middle class husbands and with no sleep. I mean that they, they really did a ton of creepy, creepy work. And were really using their own kids as pawns, like as political pawns in this. And Ki McGray said, and I thought this was really a. It's super important that not only what they were fighting for, but how they were, what they were modeling for their kids. And it says that the lesson they're teaching their children is that preserving whiteness and racial segregation mattered more to their parents than a high school diploma, a college scholarship, or even Friday night football.
Mandy:That's saying something in the south.
katy:I mean,
Mandy:Well, and
katy:eh.
Mandy:that's reinforced again when they start to talk about, this push for compulsory school attendance
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:the things, one of their tactics to integration was they just all pulled their kids out of school
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:were gonna integrate. So then there came in these like compulsory school attendance, like bills and policies, I'm guessing. And I thought when I read that, I was like, oh, I guess I did not think of a time of like when this happened. Like
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:attending school a certain number of days and like all of these you have to put your kids in school somewhere, truancy laws. When did all of that come into
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:like this again, it's just putting that piece of history together as to when this actually happened. But it does say so. they're talking about some parents in a school in Charlottesville area. I think it says, parents in Prince George County received anonymous letters that deemed open schools and compulsory attendance laws, the principal objectives of integrationists and urged opposition. PTA, voted that no education was better than an integrated education. And I wrote in the margins, cut off your nose to spite your own face. I
katy:Oh, totally, totally. Yes. And knowing that the, you know, whether or not they were working explicitly in concert, like the working class women that were like out in the streets kind of rabblerousing and then the middle class women who weren't in the streets, they had different tactics like their columns or these were the women you talked about who were, who just like expected to win. And were using use leveraging power to have teachers reinstated. Little Rock's Women's Emergency Committee lobbied for the schools to reopen. They were filled with middle class white women. These were the ones who expected to be heard and win. They argued that closing schools would erode economic investment in Little Rock. They supported stop this outrageous purge effort to reinstate teachers fired for ly integration of sympathies. They did not have to turn to their children or to the streets to wield their political influence. Instead, they could mobilize their civic organizations, their fellow club members, and their political capital. They drew on their experience lobbying, petitioning, and advocating for public education to build a movement working with business leaders, uh, the moderates on school boards and whites zoned for other schools. And so you had the. Just these different tactics. And even when they were grumpy with each other, they're still, you know, arguing for the same thing. And so this idea of no education being better than an integrated education, meaning you're, I think the, she uses the word severed, like severing schooling from school houses
Mandy:Yes.
katy:make, like having homeschooling being an option. Private schools be an option. And, and that this was actually like an evilly genius sort of way to win, was to change what it meant to win. So maybe they couldn't win that court case and maybe they couldn't keep segregation legal
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:But here she says on page 1 91, if proponents of massive resistance had wanted only absolute school segregation in every district, then open schools in most districts with limited integration in some would've meant their defeat. If massive resistance encompassed a broader political agenda of white supremacy that could continue with token integration, then its defeat appeared much less complete. The PTA meetings characterized by parliamentary procedure and politeness had disguised what was really a way through for open school advocates and segregationists, those who embrace moderate rather than absolute resistance, continue the grassroots work for some racial segregation integration. I think this is so important. So even when we say like, oh, working class women had these tactics and these goals and middle class women had these other tactics and these other goals, and that actually sometimes they were at odds with each other. They were all still dedicated to white supremacy and that actually expanding what it meant to win and seeding some ground actually opened up lots of other space for them to continue. I that was chilling.
Mandy:right. So even when. white children started to attend integrated schools. The white women of those children still worked for all the ways we talked about before. In continuing this, Jim Crow South, they countered it with textbooks, with public history celebrations, with the essay contest. I mean,
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:the same thing over and over again. And this gets into the part that I was like,
katy:Oh,
Mandy:the essay contest. Oh, the essay contest. I swear. What I would not give to find out what the topic of that damn essay contest that I
katy:that you won
Mandy:was
katy:The DAR essay contest.
Mandy:I would die to know. I
katy:Oh my God. Well,
Mandy:but
katy:it, maybe it was a topic like this, why I believe in social separation of the races of mankind or subversion and racial unrest, or why the preservation of state rights is important to every American, or why separate schools should be maintained for the white and ne races. Those were some of the essay contests in Mississippi that thousands of students participated in. And one,
Mandy:8,000
katy:so many. And in 19 60, 1 of the winners, Mary Rosalind Healy of Madison, Mississippi, wrote It is up to me as a product of the struggle of my forefathers as a student of today and as a parent of tomorrow to preserve my racial integrity and keep it pure so that that's the nature of those i'll essay contests.
Mandy:so in 1960 she won this and I was like 1960. Is this bitch still alive?
katy:Oh, we did the same detective work. Please tell me you found her Facebook page because I found her Facebook.
Mandy:Yeah. Yes. I was like,
katy:Oh my god.
Mandy:Get me on Google. Is she still alive? And she is so still alive because
katy:Yeah,
Mandy:92 and 1 93, there's actually a picture of the
katy:yeah,
Mandy:winning
katy:yeah.
Mandy:And there's a picture of her
katy:Yep.
Mandy:and when you open the Facebook page and you see her pictures today, it is
katy:It's the same. It's the same. Yeah.
Mandy:ah, it's her.
katy:You were smarter than me because I even initially Googled her obituary because I was like, oh, I'm curious, you know? But no, no, no, no, no, no. She's definitely still alive. And I like, I thought, oh my God, what if you are her grandkid and you're sitting, you're taking like a women's studies class, you know? Maybe that's what you're into. Because you know, like families are complex and I don't assume that everyone in her family agrees with her, but you open your page and you see your grandma. Featured as this essayist, why I believe in this social separation of the races of mankind. And you talk about intermarriage as an incurable epidemic and you see your grandma's face, like maybe she knows her grandma well enough to not be surprised, but I I, I really was trying to wrestle with like, what do, what, what is it? I don't know that, just thinking about the fact that this lady is still alive. Does she know she's in this book? Does, do her children and grandchildren know that she's in this book? Her posts are clear.
Mandy:Yeah, I, well, that was my question. Like, is she, does she still believe all of this?
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:of, most of her stuff is very benign old white woman stuff. But she does have a couple about like
katy:Mm.
Mandy:Southern, reenact war reenactment thing, it seems like. And
katy:Oh yeah. I.
Mandy:bunch of like American flags with eagles on them, and mean, I
katy:don't know.
Mandy:like MAGA Trump supporting
katy:Mm. It, it, like, I don't, I don't know how far down you Doug, but I, and, and I don't wanna be like creepy and stalkery, like I didn't, you know, send this lady a message. You know, what am I, what were we gonna say? You wanna come on and talk to us? I dunno.
Mandy:I kind wanted to be like, are you aware of this? And do you still believe this? I really wanna ask her like,
katy:I don't know. Maybe we should. Well, but I, I was starting to.
Mandy:this lady again. I was just like, also like, okay, I don't wanna start this thing where she gets like totally trolled, but kind of I,
katy:But
Mandy:eh,
katy:I don't think that's trolling. I think that you put this out there. You, I am curious, I am curious if McRay reached out to any of the people who are still living. There's something kind of nice sometimes about being a historian who's just dealing with people who are long gone. You know, you don't have to navigate some of these interesting ethical quandaries. Maybe they're not even ethical quandaries and it's obvious like, oh, you're a racist. That's a problem. But they, all of her posts, I thought, oh, now I am. Now I'm using my qualitative researcher hat coding all the posts that she has. They were all about the military. Abortion being bad, her southern heritage being Christian. It was this package of things. And then she was posting, especially a lot of the abortion stuff reposting the posts of a woman and now I can't think of her name that I had texted you. She's got like 10 kids, but her husband cheated on her and they got divorced and she's like a big time Christian social media influencer woman who is very much ensconced in all of these things, like purity. And it was, her website is hysterically beige, like it is the beige mom, which, you know, I have a major problem with.
Mandy:Yep.
katy:we, this was like quite the rabbit hole to go down, but I, I really, I don't know. I really did wrestle with like, what do you, yeah, like what, what do you do with this? Person who's still here, and, and maybe she wouldn't say this essay title, but I don't, just based on what she's posting, I don't think it's, I don't think she's removed from that logic and this history. It is all connected. If anything, one of the big takeaways was just a reminder that when we read about something that happened in 1960, most of those people are still alive. And it's not to say that people can't grow and change and evolve for sure, but it's just to remind people that there, when we think about history, it's not like 1960 ended and all those people disappeared and it was a new crop of people. Like those are all still actors in the mix. Raising kids, influencing people, you know, taking actions in the world that they're, they're, a lot of them are still around, but I, I did have a moment where I was like, oh my God. Like, what? What do you do if. You are the grandkid who opens this up is loving this book. And then you turn the page and there's Grandma Mary.
Mandy:I know. And the thing that I, I, we've gotta ask McCray about this when we talked to her is like, she put her picture in here. There's not a lot of graphics in this book.
katy:Yeah. Yep.
Mandy:is, this is a choice to put this picture in here. And I do really wonder if she'd reached out or tried to talk to her or heard from her. Or any of her descendants
katy:name names, hold people to account. And I don't think you have to do that. You, you don't need to do it in like a, like public, you know, what are those called? The stocks where someone gets like, you know, I, I don't, I think to me the vision of an anti-racist world is not one where there's like. It, it, I think this is sort of what gets propped up as the straw man argument. Like, oh, you just want genocide the other way. Like they want white genocide. It's, that's not what I'm advocating for. I don't, I, but I, I think there's a difference between like vigilante justice and holding people to account to say, this, this name names, you wrote this, you said this. What? Like, how have you changed? Have you changed? What, what do you, I, I don't know. That feels different to me than this. Like, it's the difference between, I now we're down this other rabbit hole of cancel culture and if that exists and what that is, but it's like there, if there's consequences for you being shitty, that's fair. Like that's, that's the world. Like if you are feeling. Ostracized or excluded because you said something horrible and people are horrified. That's a natural consequence. That is not the same as exclusionary laws that are intended to discriminate against people based on their identity in a or their membership In some group, those are not the same things, and those have been flattened and equated. And so now it's, you know, like this again, a victim narrative like, well, no, I'm the victim. Like, no, you are just being held to account for being shitty and participating in a shitty system that's different.
Mandy:and also like this perspective, and this comes up later in the chapter and I wrote something in the margins I said like, people just really fear what they are.
katy:That's just it. Like you, you're only looking at yourself in the mirror and just thinking like, I don't, like, I don't, I don't wanna be treated the way I've treated people. Then stop treating people that way. Right.
Mandy:assumption that
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:way that people think
katy:Right,
Mandy:that's what the other side wants to do, is
katy:Yes.
Mandy:and subjugate you like you have done to other people. It's this inability to see the world in any other way that's just so sad and disgusting at the same
katy:It's both. Well, let's talk a little bit. Another name I wanna name is Sarah McCorkle, who's a teacher that I wanna do. I tried to do a deeper dive on and I couldn't find out much more about her, but she was real hyped up and set on making sure that, you know, there were lots of activities and curriculum and all sorts of ways to make sure we were still teaching kids racism. And don't worry, there's the 1961 Civil War centennial.'cause, you know, white women and anniversaries and commemorations are the biggest, the biggest red flag we have This the south. So McCorry was involved in a lot of things. I don't know if she was involved with the centennial. I, I'm sure she had something to do with these anniversaries, but Mississippi allotted$2 million to have like celebrations of the Civil War, which is$20 million to. In today's money, which is so much money, and especially when you think about the state of where else that money could have gone to help people. It's wild. So of course the celebration in 1961, again, 1961,
Mandy:Yes.
katy:only 19 years before we were born, by the way. It's like not that far from us
Mandy:but not that old.
katy:and not exactly but of course the celebrations ignored the emancipation of slaves and the wartime contributions of black Americans. Black activists contended that the centennial really served as a promotional event for white supremacy and resistance to the federal government. I think that is a fair assessment for sure. But that it was framed as like, you know, of course all the same old, like state's rights and the federal government is overreaching and all that thing that I loved this line that it was a, the centennial was a public sanctioned affair for white self-indulgence.
Mandy:loved it.
katy:Yep.
Mandy:Underlined, LOL next to it. Like white self-indulgence is the definition of so much going on right now. Trump's stupid fucking gold ballroom. His
katy:or the, the Oval Office.
Mandy:that he
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:Office, the whole, ugh.
katy:Well, here's where this, yeah. I mean, all of this is so. Current, but the white women, GRA says, managed to either one, erase the history of slavery or two, render it benign. What are we hearing today? Jillian Michaels. I hear you. I see you Either erase it or make it benign and all the stuff that's going on in the Smithsonian today. The, oh, this, this was insane. So this was, um. In Washington DC and I'm trying to see who she's quoting here, but I think it's Francis Ogden. One of the women we've been following in the book writes about how when little chocolate props Negroes came on school trips to the American History Museum, a Smithsonian docent emphasized what the white people have done to build this country. But not in an offensive way. I thought, Jesus, like what? Like how you can have all those words together in the same thing and say, but I'm not being offensive. It. And just even specifically with the Smithsonian and knowing what's going on today to say, well, let's focus on what all the white people have done to build this country. And that's not offensive. That's just fact. It, it just I like, it's hard to, it feel, I feel very untethered like this. This is the norm.
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:the Smithsonian being able to have exhibits or like the African American History Museum on the mall, which is fabulous if you've never been, it's so good like that. The existence of that museum is the exception. And it's very easy to get tricked into thinking that that's the, like, it's this big beautiful building that's on the mall. Like it's easy to think, oh, that's, that's just like, that's the stronger foundation. And it, I don't think it is. I think the, the, the, the erasure of these histories or making them seem benign, making the history of white supremacy seem benign, that I like reading this. I'm like, well, that's, that's the norm.
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:Yes.
Mandy:Definitely. For sure.
katy:And it, and even though you have you know, activists and historians trying to counter those ideas that these white women are, are formidable force for sure. And.
Mandy:surprised. So this gets into the story of Ruby Bridges. And the
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:Orleans
katy:Yep.
Mandy:integration of school, and everyone's seen the pictures of
katy:Yes.
Mandy:darling child
katy:Yep.
Mandy:by hateful, horrific, screaming white people and
katy:Yep.
Mandy:white women. I didn't realize is that she says that these white women stood outside their neighborhood school for nearly a year
katy:Yes.
Mandy:yelling at bridges day. A first grade child
katy:yep.
Mandy:stood
katy:Yep.
Mandy:with their aprons on their babies, on their hips, screaming at a child for a year.
katy:Horrible signs. Even like little coffins with black baby dolls in them, like horrifying things. I didn't realize it was John Steinbeck who coined this, but they're known as the cheerleaders and he called them crazy actors playing to a crazy audience, which I think is exactly right, but also like not to be dismissed, you know, like, yes, they're crazy actors playing to a crazy audience, but when those are the people in power, like God help us all, you know?
Mandy:Well, and not only did they harass her, the other part of it was that they harassed their white neighbors
katy:mm-hmm.
Mandy:to walk
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:to school, reported them to their employees, encouraged their children
katy:Yep.
Mandy:bully. Former schoolmates who kept attending integrated schools. So even
katy:Yep.
Mandy:parents who were trying to continue sending their kids to school at this time could not escape. They lost their jobs. They had their electricity cut off. She says they had their homes vandalized. So it was like. You. No one was safe in this
katy:Yep. Right,
Mandy:way to get away from the harassment of these women.
katy:right. Well, and, and again, thinking about the different class. Nature of white women using what they had at their disposal. So middle and upper class white women had like political influence or, you know, influence in terms of like getting teachers removed or getting people fired or you know, being able to influence legislation, et cetera. But these women, um, McGray says without the economic security or stability to escape to the suburbs, because of course that's also an option for women of means is to just simply move to gated communities where they can do whatever they want, you know, and continue to be segregationists. These white working class women protected their investment in white privilege where they could in their homes, in their schools and on the streets. Yeah. And then just capturing their attention, uh, the like media attention in that way, which is interesting with the media attention like that. Both, I think. Helps increase the pressure of people who are horrified by what they're seeing, but also links you and connects you to people who support what you're doing. You know, it has this double effect,
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:this, this motto though of we have to save the children, which I am pro. Like, okay, we're also recording this like a day after another horrific
Mandy:School shooting. Mm-hmm.
katy:in a, this is like, not only in a school, but in a church. It's like both, both things combined. It's, the details are still unfolding. It's, I am so ashamed to be an adult right now and that adults aren't doing anything. Like, it's just, just, this is the life that we have in the United States is this is just the risk you run when you go anywhere or do anything. It's awful. I.
Mandy:But to put that next to protect the Children mantra
katy:Right.
Mandy:women then and today keep trying to push. And it's like, what is the number one danger to our child? What is
katy:That's right.
Mandy:What is the number one cause of death of children in America right now is gun violence.
katy:Right. So when you say Save the children, I don't believe you. You know, like, I I, that that rhetoric, it's not that I, it, it sets it up like, oh, if you're opposed to that, you don't wanna save children. No, I actually wanna save children that I'm not using that as code for promotion of white supremacy or promotion of gun rights or what not even gun. Right. Oh my God, I hate that framing, like promotion of guns, period. Full stop.
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:That, yeah, I just don't believe them. It's just, it's, it's all for this. Deeper creepier crusade and I, there were some connections that I was even surprised about, like there one group of white women, this was the Sarah McCorkle, that teacher founded this organization called Patriotic American Youth,
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:and it was focused on cultivating young conservatives in the early 1960s. It again, like uses this coded language so it's avoiding explicit white supremacist language and it's telling potential donors that it's all about like growing a new crop of conservative young people, but they shared office space with the John b society. Like all these connections of the foundations that are being laid decades ago are all literally connected, like literal office mates, you know, in this same building. And then just some of the things that they were advocating for. It, it, it's just too, just too much. Like they were objecting to pictures of Hiroshima after the atomic bomb because they might promote fear and compromise and attitudes towards the Cold War.
Mandy:Yeah. Again, just like suppressing actual things that happened and it says to that, so one white woman suggested to governor JP Coleman. history books were most guilty in promoting a continual, concerted attack on our form of government, our social standards on capitalism and our Constitution, and introduce ways and means to I improve social relations among the races. Nothing could be more dangerous. Not even gun violence, she concluded the books that have been placed in our schools
katy:that's, that's the piece I wanted to hit today of all days is like, fuck off, like. I, I don't, I, you don't give two shits about kids if you
Mandy:and
katy:actually think
Mandy:about it. Not even gun. They don't even give a fuck. Like not guns. It's the books that you're putting in and that these history books they think are promoting these attacks on our government. Well, I'm sorry, truth hurts. Like history tells the story. That this is the bullshit that has been causing problems. I'm sorry. If you don't like it, like you're rewriting, it doesn't change that. That's what the truth is,
katy:and, and just, yeah. And then the shit, like the, all of the, the ways that it's shifting what even is considered appropriate. So at the point where you can't even talk about the human toll of the atomic bomb,
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:because that's un-American to point that out. Like what, what's even left to talk about at a, you know, like they're just, if you. Are, are putting more and more things. And that, that actually reminded me of the purge of documents from the National Archives in deleting references to the Enola gay because it had the word gay in it. It's like, good god. Like when you go on this ideological witch hunt for things like what's even left, what even gets left in the wake of that? It's just wild. Yeah. The other, well, there's a lot left in this chapter, but another one of the connections. But the office mates with the John Bch Society and just knowing what, what literal organizational networking they were doing at this time in the sixties. But it was also really interesting to read about, this being around the world, a a moment of, of people throwing off colonial. Power, you know, the, the, the end of, of empires in a lot of cases, like nations gaining sovereignty around the world, especially Africa and Asia. And so the, the international connection, this is something I want us to, to really go into and maybe even have a whole season dedicated to the global shadiness of white women because there's just so much, you know, we're very focused on the United States but even white women in the us like these citizens councils, which were the quote classier, K, k, k, basically who were very. Much connecting the dots between international events and what was going on at home and really worried about decolonization in and being very opposed to decolonization in places and comparing what was happening in Africa with what was happening in the south of the US and, and saying, this is one person, Mrs. Sam Davis, so who knows what her actual name is. Arguing that both African conflicts in the civil rights movements were examples of a worldwide effort inspired by communists to subjugate white people. So again, it's this like victim mentality that we are the minority under threat and it's another way to connect foreign policy with places that were majority people of color, that that connects to threats at home. And just it, it's like again, this fearmongering and making connections with all these issues and then having ways in for people that weren't necessarily on ramps before. And the, like, all of the things that they're against, like critiquing the Peace Corps because what if white kids go to into the Peace Corps and fall in love and get married and quote, go native, or what if they get abused and terrorized? It's like they're either gonna fall in love or they're gonna get raped. Like those are the only two options and they're both bad.
Mandy:Yeah. And
katy:mean, I honestly have qualms with the Peace Corps, but it's not for those reasons, you know?
Mandy:well, and this brings up again that horrible column that Francis Sellers Ogden had called dis and that, that we
katy:Oh God, yes. Yep. Yep.
Mandy:and this whole narrative that in these colonial nations that are breaking away, that again, that black Africans are unfit rule their homeland. So it just goes back into this entire narrative of white benevolence and the white people are taking care of the black people and the black people aren't ready. There's this whole doctrine of like
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:not being ready to take
katy:Yes.
Mandy:themselves, which is like, that implies that you will think there's ever a time where they would be ready, and we
katy:No, obviously not.
Mandy:bullshit as well,
katy:Well, we know because you're also mad that you don't have servants, because now you can't, if you don't have servants, you don't have time to do charity work because you have to do the housework. And so then it's actually bad for the community to not have slaves and to not have servants, because then the wealthy white women don't have anyone to. Do their labor so that they can't do philanthropy, like the logic leaps that they're making. The connections are just so bonkers. And again, just the things that they're mad about, like the pictures of Hiroshima damage, or Francis Ogden was mad about the UNICEF Christmas cards because their challenging white Christian traditions, she was mad at trick or treating for UNICEF because it's in like making kids communists. Just like it cannot be a small enough thing for them to be mad about.
Mandy:the fricking Starbucks Christmas cups, like debacle, where they got, people get so angry that they're just red and there's no like, you know, Santa Claus or Jesus references or anything. Again, like you said, there's nothing. Too small for them to demonize and go after.
katy:Ogden's a real piece of work. I keep trying to think about which of these white women, like, not that I need to rank order them, but I, you know, just they keep switching positions for who I loath the most. But she, I thought this was really interesting for us because our tagline at the beginning, I think we used the word ladies, white ladies making a mess of things. I think we say that at the very or intro, but that Ogden was pissed about the word. Lady and the, and made these distinctions. So when she's talking about some of these quotes are just so juicy. So here she's writing now that the commies and the do-gooders have got the lady, meaning the black woman out of the kitchen who's going to do all the civic improvement, PTA Garden club, patriotic Society, and Sweet Charity work for the lady that the white women and the parlor used to do. And of course, GRA says like this ignores the vast church, social and civic civil rights work undertaken by black women, obviously. And also those white women were their quote charity work words aimed at very, very different ends than most of the black women that were working. But she is questioning if, quote, the former maids released from domestic service, render the same community service once so freely given by the mistress of the house setting white women up again is these paragons of virtue. Like, oh, we have to do everything we can to protect them,
Mandy:And
katy:but as.
Mandy:black women aren't enslaved anymore, then they're just sitting around on welfare roles and not doing anything. They're not
katy:Yes.
Mandy:communities.
katy:Right, right. Oh, it's so bad. So she is giving this introduction to a woman professor, to the Mississippi Historical Society, and she says she hesitates to call her a lady because quote, when my cook comes in and says, Ms. Florence, Ms. Fl, there's a lady in the kitchen to see you. I know this is someone seeking to get on the welfare roles, but when she says there's a woman in the parlor, I know it's a colonial Dame, U-D-C-D-A-R, or some historian or writer. So she's saying like, lady for Ogden is a term replete with racialized class and political meanings, meanings that no longer worked as black resistance challenge, white cultural supremacy. So it made me think, is it good that we're using the word lady as a way to like stick it to Francis Ogden or,
Mandy:Yeah.
katy:you know I don't know. Language is so fascinating. Gosh, there's so many other things in this. There's.
Mandy:like, how many groups these women made? And I'm like, what? How did they have the time? I don't, I mean, there was like the we, the people Congress of Freedom, and then the women that weren't involved in that. We, the people, and they also had like other groups in other states, there's just, there was one, like one group called the Paul Reveres. Ladies
katy:Yes. Yes.
Mandy:make a women's group and name it after a man.
katy:I know, I know, I know. Exactly. Oh my God.
Mandy:I mean so many different groups, but they all had these similar missions. They were all starting to pivot and use this different language of constitutionality. And state's rights
katy:And protecting children and pro, you know, protecting Christianity. Yes.
Mandy:this is where also where the whole religion thing gets brought into it that I wrote in the margins. This is skipping ahead a little bit, so we may need to go back, but
katy:No, that's fine.
Mandy:on page two 10,
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:There's another women's group that kicked off their second year with a meeting in Montgomery, calling on mothers and school children, believers in prayer and followers of the Christian faith to join and to perfect the national organization. The addition of religion drew on national conversations occurring in the aftermath of the Supreme Court's 1962 decision to ban school prayer. So this is where it comes together.
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:prayer was a way, as Cornelia Dabney Tucker put it, one of the other women we've been following
katy:Yep. Yep,
Mandy:the hillbilly and the city dweller, the Southern Bible Belt and the Quaker New Englands, the Wash Foot Baptist, and there were Socratic Episcopalian. So it was this unifying thing in the conservative movement, which was
katy:Yep.
Mandy:intentional, which is why,
katy:Yep.
Mandy:I think this all the time, like how do they, how does the GOP, the Maga, the Tea Party, how did they get. of these people that you think should be pro-public support, like
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:who are in the lower end
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:the, you know, economic spectrum to be so hardcore supporting these conservative principles and
katy:It, it's not even just economic, it, it's also racial. Like I, right now there, this just came up that there are efforts to get bible studies in school in our community, and some of it is being led by black Christians. So it's not, it's even a way to cross other kinds of lines and to have these. Combinations of people that you would not suspect would be in bed together. But it's a way to promote these causes. So, you know, what's dangerous is to think if you are allied around this one issue, like let's say Christianity, and yes, you want the Bible studied in school, but you don't support racism. It's like, well, good luck. Good luck with that alliance because like we've seen what these people do. They would rather not have education. You know, it's like, don't, don't think for one second, it's, we've talked about Jenny and Clarence Thomas. It's like, I don't, people can be, if they're being ignorant or bigoted or they're promoting their thing over, like their dominant identity over somebody else, don't think that protects you from not being the target of the people that you were in alliance with. You know, I, it just doesn't work that way. When, to your point about how did they have time. Ogden talks about demanding that women forego their appointment at the Beauty Parlor. Your Bridge Club meeting, your Garden Club convention to study the constitution, expose the UN as an organization that eroded American sovereignty, call for the reform of the electoral college, begin a membership drive. Ogden is saying to women, organize, organize, organize in every county, every city, every village, every hamlet. And that I, it's like honestly, what they did or used those organizations to do double duty. So it's not just Bridge Club, it's our racist bridge club. You know, like we're gonna do all of the things,
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:and be, and also I was like pretty explicit about like, when to talk about things in certain ways and when to not talk about things in certain ways. Like, this isn't an accident. They, they knew what they were doing. There was one part. This is the, oh gosh, what's her first name? Now I'm thinking of Dean Kane, but it's
Mandy:Oh,
katy:his non-relative. Mary Dawson Cra. Kate, thank you. That now I'm on page two 11.
Mandy:Okay.
katy:but I said her quote looked like a Trump truth Social point post because
Mandy:I have
katy:it had so many random capitalized words that she said this, she was president of the WCG, which is one of these other organizations that now I
Mandy:Government. Yeah. Women
katy:Yes. Which
Mandy:Government. Yep.
katy:they're, they're, this is God, one of like 87,000 organizations. Their goals were to defeat communism. Good luck, ladies. But also, you're doing a good job. Okay. The full recognition of the basic integrity, responsibility, and individual initiative, the American people. That is such coded garash, by the way,
Mandy:Yeah.
katy:the full support of a free enterprise economic system at home and abroad. Constitutional government, government maintaining the separate integrity of the three branches of government, which here I actually marked what.
Mandy:What
katy:What does that Right. Or like what would she think of? Like if, do you really think that, or you just saying it, a foreign policy that recognizes it's not possible to buy friendship. What's that about you? Petty bitch. And then an economically and militarily strong America, recognizing that the free world could survive without the un, but not without the us.
Mandy:Oh
katy:Damn. And then a return to God in affairs and functions of American, regardless of the beliefs of other nations. Mm-hmm. Okay. So that's what their organization's about. She is calling on women to fight the 1964 civil rights bill with all your might. That's a quote, because our children's lives are at stake, this bill is a deliberate attempt to break down morality. I will shout the words that are in cap and the general wellbeing of our people by placing illegitimate negro children side by side in classrooms of the state with white children whose parents have absorbed the state's moral and ethical codes rearing theirs and wedlock. Bar, bar, bar, bar, bar, bar.
Mandy:Mm, mm-hmm.
katy:Yes.
Mandy:Yeah. I underlined the same thing and thought the exact same thing, like, oh, oh, this, this capitalization of bullshit and yelling, propaganda started far before Twitter.
katy:Yep. Yep. Oh, oh, yes. I mean, it, it just tracks so hard. Um, but of course this is again, just like. The package of protecting children, opposing sex ed, opposing public childcare, opposing national standards, connecting these proposals or policies to communist machinations and the abdication of maternal authority. Like we, this is from the WCG two. They say it's the woman's responsibility to preserve the good life for her children life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, protection of the family. This is a woman's medium. We have every right to fight for it. Every incentive. If the men fail, we shall carry on. We are the mothers of men. We are the builders of the future. We have a duty to perform. Let's be up and about it. And here I was thinking so much about the girl boss trope that we've talked about before, and like girl power and just how. Dangerous. That is when it's not coupled with anti-racism because you have this, the, you know, Cain and Denese women who were involved with, with WCG, Mary Dawson, Cain in particular. Okay, so this is what she says, like, come on ladies like, but it's not everybody and she's insulting women of color.
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:She is demeaning them constantly. So it's not actually about like maternal power at all. It's white maternal power nested within white supremacy.
Mandy:I also thought with that exact quote the challenges, my initial worldview of these white women.'cause when we first started about doing this podcast, it was in our abhorrence to the statistics
katy:Yeah.
Mandy:white women voted for Trump. And my view was these are women just like following their husbands.
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:hanging on and coat tailing patriarchy. But it's like, no, these women were in the forefront. These women were actually driving their husbands. They were irritated that their white men weren't doing more.
katy:Right.
Mandy:taking the reins and taking the, like whip and like getting their
katy:Yep.
Mandy:order. They were
katy:Yep.
Mandy:followers or beholden. They were
katy:No,
Mandy:this just as much, if not more so in sub arenas than the men were.
katy:oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The last little piece I wanted to point out with WCG that gave me the legit goosebumps in the worst possible way is their plan of action included breeding distrust in the mainstream media.
Mandy:Yes.
katy:True Americans could not rely on the mainstream media, which I'm like, it's 1960. Oh, that's like Walter Cronkite, I guess, like
Mandy:three mainstream media people at all.
katy:And I thought, wow, that it's 19, whatever, you know, 19, the early 1960s that this was one of their specific action items was to breed distrust in the mainstream media. And that instead of, you know, whatever the schools want you to read, or especially universities, because God knows that's communist breeding grounds, that you should read the works of Patriots who believe in the constitutional government and only invite speakers who can educate them on various constitutional violations. They distributed a newsletter with a recommended reading list that included the Dan Smoot report out of Dallas, the DAR stuff like, you know, these other publications. It, it really was like, wow, pre social media, this, all this infrastructure was being built and this ecosystem existed. It's just on steroids now. But that's, that was there Dan Smoot I'd never heard of. I did a little. Like rabbit hole on him. He was an orphan boy who grew up in Missouri, became an FBI agent, and then a pundit and had this like radio show and newsletter.
Mandy:Oh, the
katy:he, he,
Mandy:Jones.
katy:oh, oh, and it, it, he, he went to school on a scholarship. It's one of those classic, like, I pulled myself up by my bootstraps. When you look at his life, you're like, how is that? What, how you explain what happened to you?
Mandy:Yep.
katy:But he, yeah, he's like the Rush Limbaugh of the 1960s. So they just, the fact that they were already like, no, come into this echo chamber. And that's the only place that, that's the right place to be. You cannot trust this mainstream media, but of course, think about the mains quote, mainstream media showing pictures of Emmett Till's. Casket or showing the photographs and, and video images of what was going on with the Birmingham Children's March. And like, of course, they're going to advocate that people not consume that media
Mandy:Yep.
katy:that's where people might have a conscience or might think, oh shit, this isn't what I wanna be aligned with. So it's, it's this very deliberate attempt to get people to isolate themselves. I mean, it is a cult. Like I don't, it's all the
Mandy:it's the whole George Orwell 1984 quote, like their final command. Like, do not trust what you see with their own
katy:Yes,
Mandy:Like
katy:yes, yes,
Mandy:listen to the propaganda we are feeding. You don't look at the actual actions happening in the world. It's so horrifying that it's been so effective for so
katy:Yep. Totally. So this, the WCG then is the, you know, don't trust the mainstream media. There are other, there are other action items were to emphasize parental authority over the home.
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:Get involved in schools and get religion, Christianity in particular, and a and a particular brand of Christianity, let's be clear into public institutions. It's like, yep, there it is. There's the blueprint, and that's what we're doing. And then to, to couch it all in this colorblind, conservative political discourse. Oh, this was wild too. I couldn't believe it was like creeping me out. So this was something I wanted to talk to Nick Ray about. Like, she wrote this book, I think it's 2018. When did it come out?
Mandy:2018. Mm-hmm.
katy:So we're, you know, al almost 10 years removed. How much of this is coming back so hard and fast to down to specific issues like fluoride in the water.
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:That was page two 15, that the, there were campaigns with these organizations to stop the fluoridation of water. Limit mental health legislation and stymie various urban renewal policies. I couldn't, the fluoride in the water, I was like, oh my god. How, like, of course that's connected, but I, I've been wondering like, why is that this issue that people were able to, you know, get behind RFK because they don't want fluoride in the water. It's like, oh, of course. Because it's like a public health initiative that's helping kids of color be healthier, so we've gotta oppose it.
Mandy:Yep. Yeah.
katy:why
Mandy:Yep.
katy:I just, I think the most depressing thing about this whole chapter, it's probably seemed really like slapped out. Like it's all these different things that she's linked way better than we have probably in talking about it. That it all makes sense together in the chapter, but it's, the overwhelming takeaway was how in this moment when there are these bigger victories and bigger. Moves for legislation or for public, like you can't be publicly racist in the same way without consequences. Like there are these moves that the tactic then I don't, I always use tactic and strategy probably the wrong way. I know they're not exactly synonymous, but the, that it meant that they had to shift, but it, it was a shift that served them so well, which was just to expand what counted as victory. So here this is on page two 15. Mick Gray says, if maintaining segregation in schools, buses and voting had been the only goals of segregationists, then the defeat of massive resistance and segregation could have been announced in the mid 1960s. And I do think that's where. We have to just be so vigilant about how we understand anything that is a victory
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:don't say like, yay, it's over.
Mandy:Yep.
katy:yay, Obama got elected. We don't ever have to worry about racism again. Like, what the fuck? No, that's not what this is. Because that's not how the people who don't like that election or who don't like that piece of legislation, that's not how they're thinking of it, you know? And we could say the same for like same sex. Marriage or like, there's a lot of issues that we could look at for this. In the midst of what contemporaries and historians had come to call massive resistance, many white women shifted their work, their political language, their strategies, and perhaps even their ideals. They might no longer mobilize their communities to sustain a rigid legal segregation, but they could always continue to cultivate grassroots constituencies for a new conservatism that could house both their devotion to racial segregation and white supremacist politics. Having learned from the decades of their political activism, they accepted legislative defeats as an unpleasant regrettable matter. Of course, they also proceeded with the knowledge that white supremacist politics gained its strength from multiple fronts, of which legislation was just one. They had remade segregation again and again, and they believed that they could do it again by stressing political conservatism, not race.
Mandy:Yeah.
katy:Mic drop McRay.
Mandy:Yeah. Yes. And they have, they have done it again, which also got me to thinking about like. What we talk about next with this. Like how do, how do we take the lessons from how effective these women were in pushing their narrative order to more effectively work against it? And
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:initial like just knee jerk reaction is to just try to counter all of these arguments and convince people of how ridiculous they are.
katy:Yeah.
Mandy:I think to agree to a degree like that helps in education. But also their main strength I think is in formulating this very, very distinct vision of the world very clear agenda for what they wanna accomplish. And I think
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:you have to counter it the same way. Like we have to get very clear what our viewpoint is about the. that we believe in and that we want to progress an agenda and push that just as hard as these women have spent generations pushing a white supremacist narrative. And I think that's what not great at. We just don't have, there are some factions and, but it's just not as clear as this has been for them this whole time.
katy:Yeah, I, we are the octopus. And just like embrace that and be super, super clear. I, I think a couple things about that. One, yes. Like a clear vision and I think the, the folks that have been really successful in, in getting. Support behind them are offering that really clear vision and being really honest and transparent about it. You know, I think that's important just from like an ethical point of view. Again, I would be a terrible political strategist because I'm way too earnest and simple in how I think of all those things, but I, I just, I don't know. I, I think that being honest about the vision you have and how you're trying to get there, people appreciate that, even if they disagree, you know, like they, there's, there's value in just being transparent about that.
Mandy:Yep.
katy:What I'm wondering is, this is the very last light this, this part to me was like the part of a horror movie where you think it's ended and they've killed the monster, but then there's clearly being set up for a sequel, you know, and there's like a hand that comes out of the dirt
Mandy:horror cruxes that have been hidden in different parts that you have.
katy:Exactly. Where you're like, don't celebrate yet, but this is when, so in some ways you could say like, oh yay, there's this, these legislative defeats and like, we're celebrating. But these women are just like, yeah, that's not the only thing we're worried about. Like we'll be, you know, we've got other pots on the fire that's not our only pot. And then also them. Knowing how much deeper white supremacy really runs. And so she, this is the end. The Ogden Kane Tucker, they understood the possibility of a national groundswell of support for racial segregation, anticipating the northern trajectory of the black freedom struggle. Ogden awai, which she imagined would be the unveiling of the national face of white supremacy, anxious to see how those who had critiqued massive resistance and white southern segregationists would respond when they had to deal with their own system of segregation. Ogden noted Riley, what's good for the children is good for the grown folks. And it gives me goosebumps even to read that out loud
Mandy:Mm-hmm.
katy:I don't think she's wrong. Like, that's actually a pretty spot on assessment it and an indictment of the north that I think is absolutely warranted. So. There. I hear you on the need for like a really crystal clear vision. Like For sure. I also, this is especially for white progressives, like stop kidding ourselves about how deep this goes and how deep it goes even in ourselves, you know, just, this is the not in my backyard attitude where if you are, or you say like, oh, I, you know, want this X, y, or Z thing. But then when it happens in your neighborhood, you're suddenly up in arms about it, like, mm. Then you don't actually want that thing. So
Mandy:Yep.
katy:I, it's really hard to be that honest with yourself and you know, really take a long, hard look. But I think that that's what I'm kind of wrestling with at the end of this book is I, I think. These women are ethically, morally, absolutely bankrupt, awful, heinous people.
Mandy:Yeah.
katy:And in terms of their work as political strategists and as people who mapped out and understood the political landscape, I think they were geniuses.
Mandy:Yep.
katy:So that is like, ugh. It just, it gives you the heebie-jeebies. And so it's to say, what do we need to do? And by we, I mean white women who do not wanna be part of this, you know, phenomenon. How can we get our shit together better to undermine the work of these women? You know, how, what is our ethical responsibility? How can we be better politically strategic and get out of the way often sometimes of the work that's being done? How can we support it? Because I don't. Think they're wrong. One question I had for you, and maybe this is a place to, to end, I know we still have the conclusion to read, which is a pretty substantial conclusion before we interview Elizabeth Gillespie McGray, which I'm so excited about, but as, so maybe we're seeing this happen to, but okay, so these women have this tactic of colorblind language, right? Which I do actually think some people buy into and genuinely believe. It is just all these other issues.
Mandy:Okay.
katy:So what happens when you're, the people who've supported you, or even like the children of that movement start to buy into that colorblindness. It are those people that can be kind of peeled off of that movement. Like it, so that's, that was their. What seems to be, and at least at this point in the story, seems to have been a very effective move that Ogden Kane, like all Dossett who am I forgetting? The Tucker, like they, they chose to say like, well, let's use colorblindness. Did that just buy them time? Is that wearing off? Was, does that have seeds of their own defeat in that strategy? I'm curious what you think about that.
Mandy:I mean, I think it's, as you said, like been super, super effective and I don't know if you, I think part of the. Fight against it is illuminating you cannot separate that,
katy:Mm-hmm.
Mandy:issues. You can't let them colorblind. Like you have to point out the ways that they're very much rooted in
katy:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mandy:attitude, like to just not allow the separation of those arguments because they can't be.
katy:Yeah, no, that's really powerful because it, yeah, it, it's, it's revealing what we think of, I, I think as like a bundle of conservative platform issues together, revealing the ways that they are actually forwarding the project of white supremacy, that that has to be reckoned with. So you, if you don't, if you genuinely don't wanna be racist, then you need to understand how these policies that you say you support and can disconnect actually can't be disconnected. And so you have to reckon with that. And then I'm hoping that you choose to stay committed to racism, and you aren't like these white parents who are like, I guess I just wanna educate my kids because I'm more committed to racism than school. You know,
Mandy:Yep.
katy:That's, well, I, the last chapter is this conclusion where Mcgras really gonna focus on Boston Women against Busing, which of course, Boston being in Massachusetts, being in the north, and, and really pretty egregiously obvious violent resistance to school desegregation efforts. And that's, that's where we're going to end. But just as always to everyone, thank you so much for listening. We are going to be able to interview Elizabeth Glassby McRay. So anybody who has questions and wants to put something on our radar to ask her, please send us a note. We'd love to hear. Thanks for your patience as we suss this out. I feel like we're, we are always. Horrified, infuriated. Like
Mandy:All the things.
katy:it's the same emotional reaction all the time. And maybe that gets tiresome to listen to, but I, I just appreciate everybody who's listening along and reading along that this is really important. And I think you and I do believe that there, there is at least some group of people that those dots haven't been connected for. And when they are connected, that will matter and will change. And I, I think there is something if we do think about this, I dunno, maybe this is a question for Mick Gray, like whether this is a useful analogy. Like if we do think about this history unfolding as like a series of movies, like part one, part two, the sequel, the the part three, part four of like some sort of horror movie where it's like the big bad is being revealed at the end for some like final showdown. You know, like what, where are we at in that process? And I think there is some. Value and benefit in having a real honest assessment of what the threats actually are. Even though that's the scariest part of the movie, it's actually empowering to not be tricked or fooled anymore.
Mandy:Yep, well, I'm excited to read the last part of this and then to talk to her.'cause there's so many questions and it's
katy:Yeah.
Mandy:just been a lot of really interesting mind opening, thought provoking kinds of stuff that she brings up. So,
katy:Again, essential reading. I actually sent this book to someone in my family to say like, you have to read this book in this moment as a white woman because it just explains so much, and you can no longer look away and think these things are disconnected because they're not.
Mandy:absolutely. All
katy:Yay. All right.
Mandy:week. Bye.
katy:Yay.