Get Back to the Counter: Joan Trumpauer Mulholland's Legacy

This episode dives into the life of Joan Trumpauer Mulholland, a significant figure in the Civil Rights Movement. The discussion covers her early life and influences, including the stark contrasts between her parents' views on race and social justice. Her transition from Duke University to becoming a full-time activist is highlighted, emphasizing her involvement in significant events like the Freedom Rides, the Woolworths sit-in, and Freedom Summer 1964. We also touch on the dangers she faced, lessons learned, and her lasting impact. Furthermore, her later life, her commitment to raising her children, and her continuous efforts through the Joan Trumpauer Mulholland Foundation are explored, offering insights into actionable ways to support social justice causes.

The Joan Trumpauer Mulholland Foundation

Ways to support Minneapolis:

Stand With Minnesota 

MPLS Mutual Aid

MN NOICE

Immigrant Law Center of Minnesota

Community Aid Network MN

International Institute of Minnesota

Parents for Good - Anoka-Hennepin

Interfaith Coalition on Immigration

Monarca

Metta Coffee

Transcript

Mandy 0:00

Hello. How

katy 0:02

Hi.

Mandy 0:02

It's

katy 0:03

How is anyone? No, no, I, I just feel like the sound of a whoopy, cushy and deflating is a great sound effect for an answer to that question.

Mandy 0:15

know. I know. It's like, and you know, immediately your relationship to someone, when they ask you that question, depending on the answer they expect, someone

katy 0:26

so true.

Mandy 0:26

walk into work or whatever, they're like, how's it going? You're like, oh, fine. You know? But then someone else asked you, how's it going? And you just look at each other and you're like, yeah. Yep.

katy 0:38

That's.

Mandy 0:38

it.

katy 0:39

I saw a, like a meme video. I don't even know any of the words I did. I am feeling like more and more decrepit when it comes to technology and language every week of my life. But it was a woman coming to a front door, maybe I've told you about this before, and it's like, oh, this is how you like, good friends, show up at each other's house. And it was like, hi, how are you? Oh, good. Oh, your, everything looks so nice. You like, here's the muffins I made. And oh, what? You know, chitchat. Chitchat. It's like, oh yeah, that's a good friend. And then it said, your best friend coming to your house, they don't even knock, they just walk in and they're in their sweatpants and no makeup and they're just like, Hey, so, oh my God, Brenda is driving me nuts. Like, there's no

Mandy 1:18

Yeah.

katy 1:19

there's no polite niceties, you know? So yes. I feel like

Mandy 1:23

with dishes

katy 1:23

they don't even care.

Mandy 1:24

whatever. And your kid's

katy 1:26

No.

Mandy 1:26

around half naked and they're like pushing'em out of the way. Go like.

katy 1:30

You know, go play. I gotta talk to your mom. Yes. I think that is, that is it. You and I were texting with some friends earlier about how that is all true, and it is so intense right now. And for anyone listening in the future, I hope there is a future in which you can be listening. That would be great. But the last couple of weeks in Minneapolis have just been just surreal, bonkers, intense, violent, awful, scary. And at the same time, what is also true is the state using force to racially profile, kill, imprisoned, disappear. People like that for generations has been the status quo for a lot of people. Same thing like in the news also is Trump trying to buy slash invade Greenland. It, it's like these news stories you in a million years could not concoct in a. Like, make fun of the future kind of way. I would not have picked these things. But just the ways that the US has absolutely disrespected sovereign nations many, many times. It's not, it's not to say, to discount this or to say so that, so don't worry about it. So don't stop being angry. It's like, no, no, be angry that it is bad. But I think the part I was texting you all was the obsession to mark whether something is unprecedented is to me just useless because it is. All of this has precedent depending on where you look and what communities you look at. So if we're going to look back at history, it's to learn about resistance and organizing. I just don't find it useful to try to like rank how outrageous something is. Like, it's wrong. It doesn't matter if this is the first time that's ever happened, it doesn't matter. Like trying to situate it in that way. To me is kind of a waste of time. It's like it is wrong and it needs to stop,

Mandy 3:28

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also just history, I think helps people to be less hopeless, maybe in a way about it like that, if

katy 3:41

or surprised even.

Mandy 3:42

yeah.

katy 3:43

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 3:44

for sure. I saw a somebody on a reel on Instagram saying like, we really need to stop calling ICE officers like Nazis or Gestapo or whatever,

katy 3:55

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 3:56

that puts. Some sort of onus on like, oh, this was something that happened somewhere else. Like this is behavior

katy 4:05

imported somehow. Mm-hmm.

Mandy 4:06

That, that's un-American. Like

katy 4:08

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 4:09

try to make it seem like it came from Nazi Germany when we know if, and those who have you, who have listened to this podcast or read other history, know the Nazis got their ideology from us. Like we are the originators of all of these practices and ideas. I mean, eugenics during that time, which we've done the series on

katy 4:31

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mandy 4:33

of that is what fed the Nazi idea. So this is also a very American thing,

katy 4:40

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 4:41

we have to, we have not reckoned with that clearly. That is why it's continuing to go on and, but we have to reckon with that and realize, yeah, this is just a continuation of things that we have not addressed and

katy 4:56

That and that need are horrible, terrible, and that people have been trying to resist and trying to convince other people who have lived in. Ways that either prevented you from fully understanding or noticing or caring or whatever that that organizing resistance has been going on forever too. So, great. Get on board. It's evil. I that's enough. Like it's really bad and it's not okay. And it needs to stop and join up. Listen, ask how you can be of help and then do the things that people who are super directly impacted tell you would be helpful. You know, it's and all of those lessons, I, the order that we've done this in has been a little bit out of order just because our lives per usual have just been total chaos in addition to the world being chaotic. But we were super lucky to be able to interview Loki Mulholland. And his mom is Joan Trump, our Mulholland, who we will talk about today and give some background. In, in like preference. This is why I'm saying my language is not there anymore. I don't know if I'm having just like mini strokes from stress, but if we want you to listen to the bio of Joan Trump or Mulholland and then listen to our interview with Loki, that is great. And we were so lucky to be able to talk with him about his mom's life and what it means to be in solidarity with movements, even if it doesn't, if these are things that do not immediately and directly endanger you, but you know that they're wrong and you are willing to be involved, right? Because ultimately those systems of oppression, you know, will come for you. That's, I don't think that's the reason you are in solidarity with people, but maybe if that argument works for someone, great, you know, if that's why.

Mandy 6:47

right.

katy 6:48

But I, I think it's actually. Especially given the death of Renee. Good. There was another murder of a protestor recently. And why am I forgetting his name? That's terrible. Alex Preddy. Thank you. I, I'm sure these are not gonna be the last people, but peaceful demonstrators who were straight up murdered by federal agents in broad daylight. And I, I know for sure Renee good, identified as white. I don't know about Alex Freddy, but thinking about Renee Good's, her murder being this first one, and in some ways I feel like, oh, there is this very small group historically of white wom women who were willing to put themselves in harm's way enough that they were harmed in all kinds of ways. And Joan Trump, our Mulholland is absolutely one of them.

Mandy 7:40

We started talking about this and I found out about her book a long, long time ago, but it fits really perfectly, I think, into this moment it is kind of a, direction, an example of things that you can do.'cause all of us are like, what? What do we do? It feels

katy 8:01

Yeah.

Mandy 8:02

like, we're

katy 8:02

Yeah.

Mandy 8:03

in this spot and just living in this horror, but like seeing a way through it or any sort of action is kind of hard. And I think her example is not that we can all do exactly what she did either, but I think just as a framework for we can go and the mindset that we can have at least in this time is really important.

katy 8:27

It's, I don't mean awareness, like, oh, awareness is enough. Awareness is not, awareness needs to be tied to some kind of actions, but they don't have to all be the same kinds of actions. You know, they, they can be small and in alignment with a movement, you know, in ways that are powerful and helpful. Like I live in Iowa. I have a lot of friends colleagues, you know, people I really care about who are in Minneapolis and in St. Paul, and I'm in contact with them and trying to figure out what can be helpful. There are mutual aid. Networks that you can support. We should put some links of places that we've supported in the notes for this episode and people can find, you know, it's, it's not hard to find ways to support people who are on the ground in Minneapolis and St. Paul if you can't get there yourself, or if you aren't there, there still are ways, like I just got a text from a friend today who is involved in a lot of like, immigration migrant workers' rights organizations and has a friend who's kind of her counterpart in Minneapolis who's trying to gather money for rent for a family who had a parent that was disappeared. So even if they're, you know, like individual requests through channels that you trust, great. Like there are, there are all kinds of ways that we can show support are. Illustrious leader will be in Des Moines tomorrow as we're recording this and there's gonna be counter demonstrations, protesting his visit and protesting everything that's happening. There might be demonstrations happening in your community. There are probably organizations that, you know, it's not like ICE is only in Minneapolis. That's not the only place that they're doing action. So there are just a million ways to be involved and to be involved in a way. Again, I know that it's not just white women who listen to our podcast, but whoever you are in relation to a movement or an injustice showing up in a way that does not take up space, that's not yours to take up. You know, showing up in ways to be in solidarity and to be helpful. And there again, there's just so many lessons to be learned from the life of Joan Trump, our Mulholland, that were already really, really useful. And then everything that's happened in the last couple weeks, I think just have made it. Have have made her life and her legacy even more powerful

Mandy 10:43

Yeah.

katy 10:44

for you and I especially, and who we, who we are, our identities. She's still living, by the way. We don't wanna talk about her as if she's not with us. She's still around, but we were so lucky to be able to talk to her son. Where do you wanna start with her bio?

Mandy 10:59

I think like positioning her in the time that people would have recognized what was going on. I mean, just for background, she was born in 1941, so September 14th, 1941. But what she's most well known for is participating in the civil rights, the whole civil rights area. Area. Era. We are both stroking out today. And the protest, especially like with the Freedom Writers and the sit-ins that were occurring during the,

katy 11:34

Yes. In some way, if you, if you were to just pull someone off the street and say like, civil rights movement, top three events, go it. It's like what the average person would identify as the most significant moments of like the 1950s, 1960s civil rights movement she was connected to or a part of in some way. And odds are in a textbook you had in high school or, you know, just in a documentary. The, this photograph is so famous. There's actually a couple photographs of her that are really, I think like known that people would likely know. Do you wanna describe the first one where she's at the sit-in? I think that's probably one that people have seen.

Mandy 12:14

people probably wouldn't know her name. Like I think if you're listening to this now, you're probably like, oh, I've never heard of her before. I think all of us have probably seen her before. Whether

katy 12:23

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 12:24

it or not, if you see the photo again you'd be like, yes, I did in fact learn about that. So she is in the famous sit-in photo at the Woolworths lunch counter, and this is where they would go around and like go up to the lunch counters and sit down and then have their other. Protestors sit with them that were black, but there would be a white student who would go in first, most of the time, I believe. And then they, you know, obviously wouldn't serve them. And they'd wait and stay there. And then all these mobs would come in around them. And so the famous photo is of her sitting at the counter with two of her other colleagues, and then all of these white students behind them, like pouring stuff on top of them. But it

katy 13:12

Just laughing, gleeful, and you see these three people with malts on their hair, on their shoulders, on their heads, and it's such an intense. It's a claustrophobic

Mandy 13:23

Yeah.

katy 13:24

You just feel like there's no way out there at this counter on these stools with this gang of it looks like mostly young white men surrounding them and, and gleefully hurting them, basically, you know, and, and disrupting their sit-in

Mandy 13:40

innocuous as like pouring the milkshakes on them. I

katy 13:42

no. Right. Right.

Mandy 13:44

more physically violent and like there was one point where she got like pulled off of this, the stool by the mob and like dragged and, you know, very easily could have had a lot more harm done to her at that point too.

katy 13:58

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 13:59

and then the other photo is of one of her arrests in Jackson, Mississippi, and it's, that photo is famous because she's a very, like, attractive young white woman. And so it's just kind of one of those pictures that sticks in your mind of

katy 14:18

Right, like raises questions makes you curious. Like, who is this young white woman who, and, and the expression on her face,

Mandy 14:26

Yeah like

katy 14:27

it's

Mandy 14:28

calm, confident,

katy 14:30

yes.

Mandy 14:31

like

katy 14:31

Other worldly connection that is just coming out of her face that this is, she is on the right side of history and she has absolutely no doubt about it and has made peace with whatever is going to happen and she is where she's supposed to be. It's this ethereal, it's just beautiful picture. And there, yeah, there's a lot of mugshots from the civil rights movement that people are probably familiar with, but. Yeah. Hers being, again, we say this a lot, like there weren't a lot of other white people. There were white people that were in solidarity and were, were there, but not so many. And she was one of them. And I think it's interesting to dig into her life. How did she come to be that way? Why did she make the choices that she made? What lessons can we take away from her life and legacy today? So we'll put those photos up. I know it's hard to describe photographs in an audio medium. I think we did a good job.

Mandy 15:24

Yeah.

katy 15:26

so you said she was born in 1941. She was born in DC right in like the,

Mandy 15:30

Yeah.

katy 15:31

metro area.

Mandy 15:32

yep. She was, but her parents were they were in DC for like government job kind of work, but her mom was from Georgia, and then her dad was from Iowa, of course.

katy 15:46

I feel like we should have some sort of ridiculous sound effect whenever we mention our connection. That that's where we grabbed, that's where we met as kids and that's where I still live, unfortunately. Slash fortunately, I don't know.

Mandy 15:57

and there's When you live in Iowa, you know that all that matters is however something is connected to Iowa.

katy 16:03

A hundred percent. It's so sad. It's like the one thing we have is to try to make a connection. Like don't we're we matter. It's not just flyover, I swear. These are the books they publish for our publishing company. That's our, it's like that on steroids. Like, I swear to God, important things have happened here and people like believe us. Yes. So we, we should come up with some kind of ridiculous side effect. I don't know what it. I don't know what it would be, honestly. It's like a sad trombone sound is all I can hear in my head, which WW but I think that actually that context is really important. Again, not that Iowa does not have a history of racism. It very much does, but the brand of it is so different in some ways than the, her mom having grown up with this story that, you know, her family had enslaved over a hundred people and, and then they became sharecropper. Like there's kind of legend of a family that was deeply embedded in slavery and a dad with this kind of family myth that that's not what we're connected to. And then the two of them coming together, so as like her childhood unfolds, her mom was like very proudly, explicitly racist in ways that her, it sounds like her dad was more open-minded and. Willing to befriend colleagues who are people of color and invite them over to dinner. Her mom couldn't handle it.

Mandy 17:25

Yeah. Yeah. So she talks about how, was very clear that her mom absolutely believed in segregation, strictly

katy 17:34

Yes.

Mandy 17:35

segregation beliefs, and felt that it was like really justified mindset to have. So this was like spiritual? It was legal, it was just the way things were. Period. Even though it does mention that a lot of Southerners and Joan's family had indigenous American ancestry because of, you know, all of the other horrible things

katy 18:02

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 18:03

along, but she said, it says that for some reason that wasn't looked down upon. It was seen as more of like a mark of how long your family had been.

katy 18:12

Oh my God, isn't it so messed up? The, and the ways the family mis construct themselves, because I, we watched, we'll talk about it in the interview with Loki Joan's son, but he did a documentary about his family history and it turns out his family, actually, they did enslave people. I think that they had, they enslaved six people versus like the hundreds. And so it was almost like the family myth had constructed their family to be like a fancier family than they were as a way to distinguish themselves from even other white people that their, their family was actually more working class in many ways. Something else interesting about her childhood. So here she's got this, you know, like proud Confederate mom, basically. And this dad who is working in like the foreign service and is engaging with people from different cultural backgrounds, different countries, different ethnicities, different races. Just an interesting couple. I have questions about their marriage, but that's for another day. But her, it also sounds like the neighborhood that their family was very Christian. She herself is very Christian and they grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of Jewish families. And so there was like, she had friendships and connections with people who believed really different things. And that was where she grew up. And then the youth group she was, was growing up in that. The youth pastor was a little sneaky and was having integrated youth church meetings that the adults did not know about. So it seems like there were these kind of opportunities or moments for Joan to have other like exposure to other kinds of ideas. Then just her mom, you know, celebrating. The, like the lost cause of the South?

Mandy 19:55

It also seems like maybe some of the. Things that were going on at during her childhood, like lynchings that were happening,

katy 20:03

Yeah.

Mandy 20:04

were things that were just discussed maybe in general in a way that she was around and heard about them because they talk in particular at one point about this man that was lynched and he was actually a Jewish businessman that was convicted of murdering a young child, and then he was lynched. And about how the around that was not about whether or not lynching was wrong, but just

katy 20:30

Oh, right.

Mandy 20:31

he was guilty and that was something that struck her as a child. Hearing these discussions. Like That that was very much clear that the, the lynching part of it was not

katy 20:44

Was not up for. Right, right. That wasn't the problem. It's so wild. I think about this a lot with our own kids, like especially in an era where we don't have the nightly news on and we don't get newspaper or try, I, I have subscribed to newspaper at different times to try to just have it lying around so that they'll see news stories, we talk about things, they, they hear things from their friends. But I also think about growing up in the eighties like we did, or growing up even in the fifties, like she would've been coming of age in the fifties with like Walter Cronkite, like one news station and everybody's watching the news and there's, I think, less siloing of children. Like I, I think there's, especially for white kids, I think there's. Just this like obsession with preserving some sort of manufactured childhood where they all they're doing are kid things. There's no exposure to adult things. I'm not arguing for like, so take your kids to X-rated movies. It's been just like a sense that I wish that, I think there's benefits to having that be more porous and having kids like being exposed and then having safe people that they can go process and have conversations with. That's also a conversation for another day. But I am guessing she had, there was less protection around her childhood than we might think about

Mandy 22:05

Right.

katy 22:06

in the world that we live in.

Mandy 22:07

seems like from her bio is that they, she was exposed to all these conversations and, and they also seemed to stick for her. I mean, there are things

katy 22:16

Yes.

Mandy 22:17

clocked, you know, like that were fundamental

katy 22:20

about her visit to Georgia. She would go back to Georgia to visit her mom's family. And this is another example of like how parenting is so different now. Like, oh, here's two 10-year-old kids walk out on their own. Like, how many, you know, just doesn't, we just don't have those kinds of things happening anymore. But she tells this story about going to her maternal side of the family to go visit, and that she and another kid when they were 10, dared each other to walk through the black part of town. And that she, it was such a pivotal moment that she remembers for a couple different reasons. One was just being incredibly shocked by how different the conditions of living were in this segregated part of town that she hadn't seen before, and that everyone hid because these two 10-year-old kids, white kids, presented such a threat to them that. And had so much power that you are safer hiding from those kids, less they accuse you of something or you know, you get something gets miscommunicated in some way.

Mandy 23:24

Yeah

katy 23:24

and that, that really, really stuck with her.

Mandy 23:26

Yeah. Their fear was that if anything happened to those girls, they could be implicated in it or accused of doing something. Not that they thought, not that they would do anything to them, or that the girls were doing anything to them. It was just

katy 23:39

No, just that it's like safer. It's safer to not have any interaction, you know?

Mandy 23:44

everybody just

katy 23:45

again, like I to your point, that she not only like remembers that and clocked it, but also was, was questioning and making sense of that as a time. And there was another story too. What was it about? Like a race, something she was part of. Some like bike race or something.

Mandy 24:00

a kid fell down in the race and she went back to help them and all of the teachers were yelling at her to like keep racing because she was doing well and like they were

katy 24:12

Win the race, whatcha doing?

Mandy 24:13

the race. And she just didn't even understand like how they would think that she should keep going. somebody else had gotten hurt and she was gonna stop to help them. she just seemed to have this innate sense.

katy 24:29

Like a very strong moral compass. Part of me wa like, oh, maybe she really took to heart the lessons she was learning in church and it like was really listening to those

Mandy 24:39

Well, it seemed

katy 24:40

messages. I don't know.

Mandy 24:41

people in the church that were actually

katy 24:43

Yes. Right.

Mandy 24:44

progressive messages, like, which is amazing.

katy 24:48

knew or not necessarily. Yes. Well, and then so it comes time to her for her to apply to colleges and her mom really, really wants her to go to Duke. And not the like liberal arts northern colleges where her daughter was interested in going and wanted to go. So she does, Joan actually does go to Duke

Mandy 25:10

Mm-hmm.

katy 25:10

and does, but isn't participating in college life the way that other girls her age are participating, which is like rushing for sororities and, you know, doing all the like, social calendar kinds of things to, be part of campus life. And that her roommate is, I dunno if she's still living, was an Italian American girl named Lu. And that she also didn't care about sororities. And so here you have this person who's from an ethnic community that's like white adjacent at this time, you know, and they, they're both just together saying like, we're not into this. That I think you just think about the people you meet at different parts of your life that. Like breathe air into an idea you had or like just help a spark grow into a flame, and you just think, what if your path hadn't crossed? Like, what if she'd been, I don't think I, I can't imagine that she still wouldn't have had a lot of the same conviction she had, but just the fact that she was able to be roommates with someone who was also like, this is insane. Like, let's do something else.

Mandy 26:14

Right. Because it seems

katy 26:16

Let's go learn about civil rights.

Mandy 26:17

Like rushing and doing the sorority thing was just the expectation. It's just what everyone did. So to put two women together who became roommates, who were both just like, fuck that. Like when

katy 26:28

Right.

Mandy 26:29

not happening. Yeah. It's like, what is that term? Kismet, you

katy 26:34

Kismet sere. Yeah. Serendipitous. Oh, totally. Yes, for sure.

Mandy 26:39

completely meant to be. And then.

katy 26:41

I love the idea that instead of going to like Cotillion or whatever, that they're going to these underground civil rights meetings. And they joined this group called nag, the Nonviolent Action Group. And they're participating in sit-ins. At one point they get in trouble and the dean calls them into the, the office locks the door behind them and says, you all have to call your parents to say, to tell them that you're in trouble for this specific reason. And it just like that, that level of expectation, institutional expectation around you when you're 18 years old, that's, it's pretty remarkable. I think that she was able to see through that and not be interested. I was so compliant. Like I, as a teenager, I was such a good girl. Like a rule follower,

Mandy 27:26

not

katy 27:26

you know? No, no. Despite what your mom thinks about how I was the world's worst influence on you, maybe, maybe that's why she didn't want you to be compliant like me. Maybe that's what it was. But there, it's just so it that, the siren call to just go along to get along is so strong. That I, it's just impressive to me that someone at her age, in her context was like, no, like this, this is not right.

Mandy 27:53

Yeah. Yeah. But it does seem to be like a. Innately embedded. So this is what I have the the curiosity about. Like how do you, do you teach that? Or does that

katy 28:05

I know.

Mandy 28:06

is that just

katy 28:07

Like, how do you cultivate that? Right.

Mandy 28:09

how, how does that come to be? Because it just seemed to be there for her from the

katy 28:15

Right.

Mandy 28:16

memories. Like she recalls all these things that I think some people just wouldn't think about. They would not

katy 28:22

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 28:23

embedded in their consciousness. Triggered anything in them, they just do for some people. And I have those memories too of like being very young and remembering

katy 28:35

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 28:36

just like, this is

katy 28:37

That's not okay. Right.

Mandy 28:39

okay. Like I remember I remem, I can remember sitting in the kitchen in the house that we lived in on the south side of Des Moines during the first like Iraq invasion

katy 28:52

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 28:53

you know the Bette Midler song that played at that time from a distance.

katy 28:57

Yes. And do you want me to sing it to you from a distance?

Mandy 29:00

Oh my gosh.

katy 29:01

That will be, yeah. Yeah. I think we sang it in choir, actually.

Mandy 29:06

I

katy 29:06

Yeah.

Mandy 29:07

the thing that everyone did. But I remember just like that being on the radio and me like con,'cause it was connected very much to like what was going on in Iraq. It was some sort of

katy 29:17

Yeah.

Mandy 29:18

and I just like ran to my room crying. Over that song because I was so upset that people were like losing their lives in this ridiculous war over oil and

katy 29:29

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 29:30

you know, and these are all things I must have heard, like growing up in my life.

katy 29:34

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 29:34

just having that reaction at a young age. And I've always, I've always felt that way about things. I've always been, you know, irritated

katy 29:43

You have No, no, it's, I think I, it is so interesting because I do think you're kind of like having known you like almost our whole lives, you know, like as far back as I can remember, like, like a, like a preset, like a readiness to be feisty, you know, like a readiness to be to not accept something and like a, a willingness and almost like kind of looking around like, what can I fuck up? Like what, what can I be mad about in the best possible way? And it, and for you it's like, oh, you grew up in the Midwest where that culturally is not how white women in particular are socialized to be and Mormon on top of it, right?

Mandy 30:21

yeah.

katy 30:22

like, it is, like what your little chemical mix of Mandy is, is just, is like innately obstinate in a and oriented towards outrage at injustice, you know?

Mandy 30:34

and I see that in,

katy 30:36

I don't,

Mandy 30:36

a lot too, but I wonder, like, I think you, I, I mean, I hope you can cultivate that, like you said in people, like, I hope there's a

katy 30:44

yeah.

Mandy 30:45

wake people up to that

katy 30:47

Oh, totally.

Mandy 30:48

like

katy 30:49

And I think like community practices, like we don't let that happen to people. And that doesn't mean that you can't have someone raised in a community that doesn't cultivate those things. Like their resistance, their rebellion is to become like a yuppie stockbroker. You know? Like that's going, I'm sure that's gonna happen. But of course I think there are ways to nurture that, cultivate that. I mean, I, I think like even when we're trying a parent and this whole season we're talking about motherhood, this is what we think about a lot with our own kids and trying to be aware of what are all those social pressures or the. Messages that they're gonna get, given who they are and how, how is it our job to counter them and inoculate them and like prepare them to not swallow those lies slash like temptations to not care about other people, to be okay with injustice and oppression, as long as it benefits them in some way. You know, like, I think we're, we're really trying. We'll see what happens. Come, come back in 20 years and see if our kids are yuppies. Maybe I, the yes, I, well now all I have in my head is good, is watching us. God is

Mandy 32:05

Watching

katy 32:06

us. God is watching us from the distance. Also, if I like there, remember beaches, that movie.

Mandy 32:16

Mm-hmm.

katy 32:16

There's just some movies, like, I don't even have to think. I don't even to watch. I just have to think about and I'll start crying. And that's one of them too. Oh, bet Midler.

Mandy 32:23

she got

katy 32:23

Oh. But,

Mandy 32:24

anyway, but Duke incident with her parents, like

katy 32:28

yeah.

Mandy 32:28

to call them and tell them what

katy 32:30

Yeah.

Mandy 32:31

it does say like, this is one of the instances where she could not like outwit the situation and, and

katy 32:38

And just did have to tell them what happened. Yeah,

Mandy 32:41

And

katy 32:41

yeah,

Mandy 32:42

was one of the things that like put this wedge in her relationship with her parents from that point in time, especially her mom

katy 32:50

yeah.

Mandy 32:51

was more like staunchly southern segregationist.

katy 32:54

But she, it just like these years when in her like late teens, early twenties, it's, it's just like she is all in, she's all in, you know. And she does drop out of Duke after a year. Mary's a high school boyfriend. They don't stay married for very long. But then she is pretty much like a full-time. Activist organizer. Like she, that is just what she's gonna do. And I, this I thought was super fascinating too, that she changed her name and then even spelled it differently, like got married, changed her name, and then ends up spelling her name differently from even her ex-husband's family as a way to protect retribution for her actions for these, all these family members that she's connected to, regardless of whether they support what she's doing or not. I, I thought that was like an interesting detail I had not really thought about with the people who were this intensely involved in this movement, that their loved ones were at risk, even if they did not support what their kid was trying to do. That they, you know, the ripple effect of all of that was super interesting.

Mandy 33:59

Yeah.

katy 34:00

It was 1960. She, there's like all sorts of things she's involved in leading up to this, like helping desegregate an amusement park in the DC area. You know, going to all these meetings on campus. But then 1960 is her first sit-in she is branded as mentally ill and taken in for testing. Like, how could you, given who you are, how, you must, not that, oh, you must be in solidarity, you must be insane. Like you must be clinically, you must have mental health issues to want to support desegregation and be dedicating your life in this way. I, I thought that was fascinating that, that it was easier for people to explain her life choices as mental illness than as like thoughtful political actions.

Mandy 34:47

Which we see in the way that like other protesters and activists now are characterized by conservative media. As soon as anything comes out about them, it's always some sort of denigration of them personally, you know, whether

katy 35:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mandy 35:06

or sexual orientation or

katy 35:09

Right,

Mandy 35:09

do. It's just this putting down of it can't ever be like, oh, they just had convictions and morality. It's,

katy 35:17

and it's pretty obvious that these systems are really awful.

Mandy 35:20

yeah.

katy 35:21

Like That's right. Just the, the, again, the manufacturing of making sure that people are going along to get along. And if somebody steps outta line, you, there has to be a reason that you're giving other people that cannot be because they recognize that this is wrong. You know, there has to be something else. She, I loved this little tidbit that when she was I mean she's been arrested many times, but that she was super annoyed with the white women from the north coming and called them godless communists. And that she felt such a stronger kinship with southern, black Christian women who were involved in the movement. As she's kind of like making connections and building friendships and just dedicating her life to this. It's, it's. Very much like a turning point where there really is a cutoff with her family. Not a hundred percent, which I think we'll talk about kind of later in her life, how she maintained ties with her family. But at this point, early sixties, it seems like she's just 1000% involved. So the 1961, the Freedom Rides she, the night before all the rides begin, Martin Luther King has organized a dinner. There's like a group of all, like the people who are going to be freedom writers and then the, the kind of people who are staying behind but helping to organize. She was one of the people who was staying behind, but she's part of that like night before dinner. Can you imagine I just

Mandy 36:41

just how embedded she is in this

katy 36:43

wild

Mandy 36:44

on after dinner walks with Martin Luther King, like discussing this

katy 36:50

and brainstorm? Yes.

Mandy 36:52

Like she was right up there with all of that,

katy 36:56

And I think part of,

Mandy 36:57

herself

katy 36:59

no, exactly. I think that's part of the lesson and the, the thread that we'll see throughout and that we talk with Loki a lot about is the, what that reflects is the ability to build trust, which meant showing up all the time and never centering herself. And there are some like harder lessons learned that we'll get into. Like things that she maybe didn't regret but like said, oh, I'm not gonna do that again. But I think that's a reflection of how the trust that she built up by acting in a way that was so different than certainly like. White conservative people, but white liberals, you know that Martin Luther King was very critical of for very, very good reason. So that 1961, the Freedom Rides if people don't know folks got onto the Greyhound bus for interstate travel and all the Greyhound buses in the bus depots were all segregated. And so they were trying to force this issue to desegregate interstate travel. The first depot that they arrive as Aniston, Georgia, the bus, there's white people there who do not like this. They set the bus on fire. The riders are fleeing it. They get beaten by the townspeople. I mean, it's like a horrific episode. And this, this is just over and over. When things escalate and things get even more dangerous and violent, Joan goes towards that energy like that, that just doubles down, triples down her commitment. So she helps recruit more writers, including. A man named Toley Carmichael, later known as Kwame Tore. He's the future co-founder of the Black Panthers. They are close friends, and then they fly to New Orleans, take a train to Jackson, Mississippi with Core, which was a student congress of racial, a quality that like a student organization, young person organization. And then she and others were arrested at that bus station for refusing to sit in the, you know, quote appropriate sections. And that arrest, let's talk about, this is not a normal arrest. That's when she gets taken to Parchman Penitentiary

Mandy 39:02

That

katy 39:03

put on death row. Talk about like her arrest, what happens when she gets there, the way she's treated, how long she's there.

Mandy 39:10

Yeah, so they take them to death row there and they do these like really invasive like strip searches and

katy 39:19

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 39:20

pelvic

katy 39:22

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 39:22

like

katy 39:23

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 39:24

very, very invasive. And I'm sure they were exactly what you would think they would be like, and, and they they were made to strip, they were given rough vaginal exams with a Lysol like smelling liquid. And she says it's a smell that would linger in her memory for decades afterwards, which I just can't imagine like, I mean,

katy 39:46

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 39:47

and I'm

katy 39:48

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 39:48

again, this is whether, you know, talking about what has happened before and what's not, this is all

katy 39:54

Yeah.

Mandy 39:55

happening.

katy 39:56

Yes. Yeah.

Mandy 39:57

centers across and

katy 39:58

Yes.

Mandy 39:59

I mean, we've heard the stories that have come out recently about a officer in one of the ICE facilities that is now admitted to raping one of the detainees there, like over and over and over again in exchange for letting her see her daughter. and

katy 40:14

Oh my God.

Mandy 40:16

I'm, that, I'm sure that's going on all over the place, but, but this prison was like known for

katy 40:22

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 40:23

and so it was

katy 40:24

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 40:25

that they were put there and had to stay there. I can't remember how long they were there. It's

katy 40:30

I think she's there two months. And the, the idea was like she was working off, like doing prison labor to work off her bail.

Mandy 40:37

Yeah.

katy 40:38

but she was yeah, there for weeks and weeks and weeks. And again, like you could think, oh, well then that she might say like, I've done my part. Nope. She, it's like all the more reason to be even more committed for her. She, this part I was curious about. I even struggled with a little bit that she enrolls in Tougaloo College in Alabama, which is an HBCU. It's a historically black college university that were created because of segregation and. Black students, students of color are being discriminated against at historically white institutions or predominantly white institutions. And so initially, like her, her goal, her purpose was that for integration to happen, she believed integration needs to happen everywhere. And my, my first response was to say, but these spaces are not segregated in the same way, for the same reason as these other institutions. And this might not be spaced for you. Right. And I, I am really interested about that kind of chapter of her life. It sounds like though, like the more, I definitely still have those questions in some, you know, qualms. But it sounds like because she stayed and the way that she showed up in that space, there was another white girl who came for a semester, almost like a study abroad situation. And I love that no one could tell them apart. Like, that's great. And, but then she stayed. And joined a black sorority. And I, I, I think just given her relationships and friendships and the way she was involved in the movement and the ways that she was when asked to take a more deferential role, it just seems like there's more to the story than what I can armchair quarterback, you know, 60 years later from my perspective. But it is just an interesting twist. That's where she goes. She there, she met Medgar Evers. She is connected with Martin Luther King, like this just super deeply embedded in the vice movement. 1963 is the photograph sit-in picture that you were talking about at Woolworths and Jackson That me Evers organized along with John Salter. I think he's John Salter's in the picture. He was a professor and Moody is in the picture as well, a black woman that was good friends with Joan and they were part of the movement together. Let's talk a little bit more about that. I know we've talked about that image, but just that sit in and the, the strategy, you pointed this out a little bit, that it, it wasn't just like, oh, you got a shake dumped on your head, just like the terror and the very real risk that people were putting themselves into. So she, I don't even think was planning on being part of that particular sit-in, there was another demonstration going on. She was like a watcher or a spotter to, to like give people a heads up if bad people were coming, basically. And so there's mass arrests at that demonstration. She's not arrested, so she calls in to update the leaders of the movement. Like, here's what just happened at the demonstration. Where do you wanna send me next because I didn't get arrested. They say, go to Woolworths, where the sit-in had started.

Mandy 43:42

Yep.

katy 43:43

And outside of the Woolworths, a student who's part of the movement is being beaten by a police officer. She goes to the sit-in and it's you know, she's able to make her way to the counter because she's white and people think she's there to like yell at them.

Mandy 43:57

Yeah. Or

katy 43:58

Yeah. Yep. But she sits down and next to her friend Ann Moody and warns her that someone in the crowd has a knife. So suddenly everyone in the crowd knows that who, where her alliances are, and then it's just hours of people yelling like horrible things. Didn't she get dragged out?

Mandy 44:17

out. I was gonna say the fact that she got dragged out and like, could have been beaten but got somehow out of the crowd and out of the danger. instead, at that point she could have left or they, she could have

katy 44:30

Right?

Mandy 44:31

Stayed on the periphery or not been involved, but the first, her first thought was, and that's the title of the book, is

katy 44:39

Yeah.

Mandy 44:39

to the Counter,

katy 44:40

Yep.

Mandy 44:41

and

katy 44:41

Yeah.

Mandy 44:42

back into it, like she pushed back through and sat back down though she was in imminent danger that entire time and could have had any number of reasons to leave.

katy 44:53

Yeah, you just got dragged by your hair out of this building where like violent things are happening. People who are in this crowd have brass knuckles. They're burning people with cigarettes, they have glass bottles. That eventually how the sit-in stops is the college president calls the Woolworths corporate headquarters and tell them to tell the local store to shut down for the day. So that's why the sit-in stops, the photographs go viral, I guess, for lack of a better word, like 1960s terminology. And then just weeks later, Medgar Evers is assassinated in his driveway, which is like another turning point, pivotal moment in the Civil Rights movement. So later that year, there's the March on Washington for jobs and freedom. The, again, this is like the Forrest Gump of the Civil Rights Movement. Then two weeks after that, the clan bombs the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, which killed four little girls who were there for like services. That is another pivotal, like infamous moment. And many other people were injured again. Joan like goes there to see how she can help. In the aftermath of that event, actually had a piece of the glass that from the stained glass windows that were blown out from the bomb, wore around her neck as a necklace for years as like a reminder of what she was involved in and why. The next summer is known as Freedom Summer 1964. Huge efforts, like coordinated efforts to get people registered to vote in Mississippi. And there were little citizen schools that popped up all over tons of efforts volunteers coming from all over, including the north to help register black people make sure they knew what their rights were. I mean, it's incredibly dangerous. Work. The Klan was very, very active. She, this is one point where she gets pulled over. Do you have that story where she's Yeah.

Mandy 46:44

in a car with several, I, I believe she was the only woman that was in the car. She was

katy 46:51

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 46:51

several male counterparts that were all black. And they had just left, a meeting, I think it was a SNCC meeting. The Memphis, Tennessee. And they were driving through this area that was well known for being heavily policed. And they all of a sudden have this cop car up behind them. And in this situation, she's a white woman riding in a car with a bunch of black men. Of course, like the risk to everyone in that situation is super high. Like the black

katy 47:26

Her presence actually escalates the risk for them.

Mandy 47:29

A ton.

katy 47:30

Yep. Yep.

Mandy 47:31

she could either protect herself and turn against them and put them all in danger. Or if she defends them, then they're all in danger, including her. And so the people that are. with her, tell her to like put her head down and hide and she doesn't want to, thinks that she shouldn't have to do that, that they should make a point that she can drive in a car with them. And the statement in the book is says, this lesson that she had to learn is, you might be right, but sometimes there's a wrong time to be right. And the, one of the people that was with her told her like, put your head down, or we're gonna knock you out. He said, seriously, we will knock you out. Because they knew that they could be literally killed if

katy 48:23

Right, like this was when her, her kind of righteousness was clouded by whiteness

Mandy 48:30

Yes.

katy 48:31

they were saying like, shut up. Like this is not gonna, this is actually undermining what you say you care about and what we believe you care about. Please listen to us and believe that we know the right way to navigate this situation that you have actually never been in. And we have, you know,

Mandy 48:46

So they have her like throw, they throw this blanket over her and the officer walks up and like asks them what's, what's going on, and says like, what's wrong with your friend in the back? And they come up with this story like, oh, he's had too much to drink, he's not feeling well. He is just resting. You know, and they, I'm sure the situation at that point was, can you imagine like,

katy 49:07

oh, terrifying. I cannot, no. No.

Mandy 49:09

there wondering what's gonna happen?

katy 49:11

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 49:12

Thankfully by some, you know, act of destiny or whatever it was, the officer didn't make them all get out of the vehicle, didn't check who was under the blanket, like, made some sort of personal calculation in his mind that was just like, I'm gonna let them go for tonight. And them go. And what it says is like the part of the story in the book after it says, unaware of the consequences her convictions could have had for the other she was with. She may have thought she was acting from a place of justice and equality, while really she was merely showcasing her white privilege and a particular level of ignorance that it afforded. And I

katy 49:57

And just her willingness to like reflect on that and acknowledge that and learn from it, and grow and stay connected. That's such a huge lesson to take away. Also, thank God that she listened because it would've really put them at such increased risk. There was another time she was driving too. I dunno if you remember this, that this it was a, a group of young people, all organizers, and they got boxed in by cars. There was no police presence. It was like clan cars and got pulled over and a gang pries up in the car and starts beating the driver. But the, there had been like an international incident just like a week before where an Indian delegate from some like diplomatic mission had been beaten or hurt and identified as an African American. And then the, it was like a, like an international scuttlebutt about it because he was actually Indian and then there were consequences for that. I mean, all of this is just like revealing how bonkers that shit racism is, but. They, they basically convinced the Klan that this guy's Indian, he's from India, and you don't want to get in international trouble. Like these people just did last week, leave us alone. And then they believed it and they were able to keep driving. So this, this is like the heightened level of violence and risk that the young people were there organizing in. She, there's a famous murder of three of these workers, Michael Schorer, James Cheney, and Andrew Goodman. If anyone's seen the movie Mississippi Burning, it's like, about this story, but they, their bodies were found, the Klan had burned them and she was part of the group that organized trainings for those volunteers and had even trained them. And that that's like death was a very, very real risk that people were running. 1965 is the Selma of Montgomery March. She is there. And then another march, the later in Meredith, I mean, these are just like, it, it just really is mind boggling the ways that she was involved with the movement. She was on a wanted list of the Klan with an order to kill if Klan members found her. Which seems like a kind of a point of pride. I think. Like for her, that was an indication that she was doing the right thing. And then this part of her bio I is less, there's less detail in the book. There's less that we could find through other sources, but in the seventies, early seventies, she meets Amanda, Dan Mulholland, and they get married, they have five kids, and then they're divorced by the early eighties, but live near each other in Arlington. So there's, I'm really, really curious about that pivotal point of her life, like as she's in her later twenties. Just thinking about where she was at in her own life cycle, and then what was happening with the Civil Rights Movement by the late, you know, late sixties, early seventies, and just how the confluence of those changes happening, but that she doesn't like change her values, but is giving priority to having kids, raising kids, like that's her primary focus.

Mandy 53:15

there is a It talks about where she takes her kids to go meet Stokely Carmichael. At one

katy 53:22

yes.

Mandy 53:22

she was still, she had kids and she was still like, and, and when we talked to Loki, he'll talk about how like these people would come over to their house and she was still having meetings, having discussions, and it was just this thing. They'd have to go in and say hi, and then they could go off and run off and be kids. So she was still involved in it, but obviously in a less like physically

katy 53:49

in a different way.

Mandy 53:51

Yeah.

katy 53:52

I think there's a lesson there too, like we all have seasons of our lives for when different things happen. One of the things the last few weeks, a reason I haven't been able to report is my grandmother passed away. My grandfather is still here. My sister and I, we all live in the same city. And so there's a lot of elder care work that is so real. Elder care is significant work on top of having a job and little kids. There's just a lot going on. Like this is a season of my life where being out in the streets every day demonstrating or leaving to go somewhere else for weeks at a time is just not as feasible or as sensible, I guess. And, and it someone could argue like, oh, that's, you justifying not doing it. But I think her. Life is a testament to the ways that you can still be useful to the movement and, and have that integrated in your life that matches onto those other seasons. And when we met Loki, like what an incredible son that she raised. Like that's part of the work too, is this incredibly thoughtful, wonderful human being who's carrying on her legacy. Like that's, that is also part of it, you know, it doesn't, I think activism or being committed and being part of a movement does not have to look one obvious sort of stereotypical sort of way.

Mandy 55:16

and I was talking, I was talking to one of my sisters last night and just saying, I don't think that people realize how powerful it is to get involved any way. Like if enough of us would just

katy 55:32

Yeah.

Mandy 55:33

at a protest, if

katy 55:34

In any way. Right.

Mandy 55:36

call their senators if enough people like would boycott whatever thing comes up. Like there, we just, you don't have to be a person who's necessarily getting dragged off of a counter or putting yourselves in physical harm. enough people who believe that what is happening is wrong. That if they all, if we all did something, it definitely reaches that barrier of making a difference. And then that could change so much if people would just involved in any sort of way.

katy 56:12

Well, and, and I think another lesson, I mean, there's so much I take away and we rave and rave about this book that Loki wrote about his mom's life and like, lessons to take away from it. It's a really, really good book. And we'll talk a little bit about the foundation that Joan has started and how people can support it. But I, I think about her willingness to face risk. And to show up and to, and to be in harm's way. I think there are a million moments where we have the choice to do that on a spectrum, right? So it's, it could be a conversation with a colleague that you, you think like, I'm actually not gonna say anything because it's going to cause tension, or I don't want that person to not like me anymore. What? Like the, you have all sorts of reasons that you are choosing to not go back to the counter, right? And it's, it's not your only choice isn't to like read that person the right act, you know, but to say, no, I'm actually gonna engage. I'm gonna turn into this like, discomfort or like tense conversation, which clearly has a way lower risk than the Ann and Joan sitting at this counter, you know? But it's just the idea of where in your, in your life, in whatever ways big or small, can you push. Into that risk and discomfort and for justice, for being in solidarity, you know, and, and choose to show up and to get back to the counter in a metaphorical kind of way, you know, that there's that energy and that orientation to just say like, that was wrong. Like to, to your point about when Joan was little and this race happens and a kid falls off the bike and the teachers, all the adults are telling her, get up, keep racing. You wanna try to win. And she says no. Like that's her taking some kind of risk, you know? And I, I'm not going to comply with something that I know is wrong. And it's, that's a small act. But I think I really appreciate what you're saying about a lot of small acts add up to big momentum and knowing that there are people taking big risks too. And there might be times in our life where there might be moments where we actually. Are called to that and moved to that and, and want to do that, you know.

Mandy 58:32

Yeah.

katy 58:32

But I, I think like the, the inverse story of Joan is someone who like, knows it's wrong and does nothing.

Mandy 58:41

Yeah.

katy 58:42

That's, that's the tragedy.

Mandy 58:44

One of the things that I love about the book that we talk about with Loki in the book is just, is very actionable. Like instead of just being a story about her life, it talks about the lessons that we can learn from her life and the ways that we can utilize that to do something in our own lives. And I

katy 59:06

Yes.

Mandy 59:07

of the things that it pushes over and over again is just becoming very, very clear and identifying what is important to you, and having that focus always there so that any distractions that come along and any like side quests that you're taking off on, you know, it

katy 59:30

Mm-hmm.

Mandy 59:30

back to that one focus, the goal that you are trying to reach and knowing what that is. And that just seemed. Very clear to Joan in a way that

katy 59:41

Yeah.

Mandy 59:42

when she was asked questions about like, well, why did you do that? Or How could you put yourself in

katy 59:49

Yeah.

Mandy 59:49

in harm's way? And her answers are just so matter of fact. Like at one point she

katy 59:54

Yes.

Mandy 59:54

life has its hazards.

katy 59:57

You know?

Mandy 59:57

just,

katy 59:58

Yep.

Mandy 59:58

you go.

katy 59:59

We're all gonna die sometime. I, I think that's also like, there were so many moments in the book that I thought were just really, really helpful for thinking about how I wanna live my life. But even just thinking about her relationship with her mom and how it evolved over the years and that. They, they were on speaking terms and she was part of their life. And Loki talks about having a relationship with his grandma that meant something, you know, and I think because she was so, Joan is so crystal clear about her values and her convictions. It's like not a threat to her that her mom doesn't agree or does, you know, it was like, I, I'm gonna be clear about what I care about. I'm gonna live those values and are you coming over to dinner Friday? You know, it's like, it, it wasn't incompatible to her. And I, I think there's a lot of beauty in that, a lot of power in that. I think that's something a lot of people are struggling with now, is how to be clear about our convictions and still make space for people we funda fundamentally disagree with in a way that doesn't like undercut what we're fighting for or care about and doesn't affirm their commitment to injustice or oppressing. It's, I, I don't know. I think there's something, there's more there that I wanna think about for sure. Like how she made sense of those relationships in her life. And then if people are interested, we'll have the link to the Joan Trump, our Mulholland Foundation, but they do a lot of professional development and curriculum. The, there are book speaking engagements, like all in service of teaching people about the Civil rights movement and how they can make a difference in their own community. Which circles back to the question I think you ask every guest that we ever have is like, what can we do to help more people care and recognize and take action? And then they also, the foundation also has micro scholarships to HBCUs that help them attend college. So just, I, I think a, a great foundation if you're looking for something to support or if you're in a position. Maybe you're a teacher, maybe you are in a workplace that has speakers come in. It. Loki was amazing. I think Joan does, like, there's ways to have to book speakers through this foundation as well. But just an incredible life. And when we think about how motherhood is weaponized this season, I think of Joan as an example of someone who was able to be a mom and commit to things and care about these things and not, not have it be some sort of either or choice and not have her identity co-opted by groups that would say The reason we need all these horrible systems is protect white women and children. You know, that she was able to just fully. Full throated, reject that with her entire life.

Mandy 1:03:06

yeah, yeah. It's a pretty amazing story. The book is Get Back to the Counter. I think we said that like peripherally. And it's written by Loki Mulholland. So you can get. Onto wherever you get your books from. You can get it directly from their website as well. If you get it from their website, you can actually get a signed copy by Joan, which I have one for you. I know we talked about

katy 1:03:30

I know, I know. I can't wait.

Mandy 1:03:33

I have. I bought one for both of us that's signed by her. And her, her story is really inspiring. I also find it interesting though that like she is still alive and she is still very

katy 1:03:45

Yeah,

Mandy 1:03:45

but she still is not centering herself. Like she's,

katy 1:03:50

Right.

Mandy 1:03:51

not all over talking about what she did. I'm

katy 1:03:54

No.

Mandy 1:03:55

in whatever way and capacity she can, she's just out there still doing things. I think

katy 1:04:00

Like the humility of her life, the courage of her life, the clarity of her life. Like that's a really, really powerful combination. And whatever elixir in her gave her the strength and fortitude to be able to reject all these systems that were telling her to do the exact opposite, you know, to center yourself to, to choose fear. Like she just didn't,

Mandy 1:04:22

Yep.

katy 1:04:23

we don't have, we don't have to choose those things, you know,

Mandy 1:04:26

yep.

katy 1:04:27

so let's, let's not choose those things

Mandy 1:04:30

Yeah.

katy 1:04:31

be in good company.

Mandy 1:04:32

Yep. All right. Well, until next time, I'm gonna get this posted and I will post

katy 1:04:39

Great.

Mandy 1:04:40

after it. And yeah, let us know if anybody has any ideas or thoughts or other people we should look into. And then we'll get back to some of our other of the not great mother influences.

katy 1:04:54

Our regularly scheduled programming, but it is just all so connected because the book I had just ordered that came a couple weeks ago, right as the Ice Occupation Minneapolis began is about American Indian Movement Survival Schools, and the American Indian movement was started in Minneapolis and the survival schools to educate children was there and Minneapolis in particular. It is just odd how what we are going to talk about in the next many episodes really connects to that specific place and there's just, oh, there's just a lot of history there. So

Mandy 1:05:30

Okay,

katy 1:05:30

our, our hearts and love and.

Mandy 1:05:34

solidarity

katy 1:05:35

and anything we can do is going, yeah. Going to focus in Minneapolis. So let us know comments, questions, et cetera, or, or anything that you want us to shout out to support what people are doing there. We, we love you Minneapolis, and we stand with you.

Mandy 1:05:50

yep. Bye.

katy 1:05:51

Be safe, be warm. Bye.